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When I was engaged to my wife 43 years ago, she told me she was very concerned that she was not going to be a very good partner as far as sex goes.  We were both virgins up to the very minute we said "I do".  I discounted her concern to youthful nervousness.  I think the next year was spent by her verifying that she indeed did not like sex and found it rather useless.  She has never denied me even to this day.  But I've had enough and am very tired of all the enjoyment being a one way street.  To me it seems selfish and prideful to keep putting her in the position of having to "perform".  This morning I told her that from now on we are going to be celibate and I will keep my hands to myself.  I think she's upset with my decision but I don't know why.  I would think she would embrace it.  I think in looking back she had desires of physical intimacy but found out that it really wasn't all that it was made up to be.  She could go until the 2ND coming and never desire to have intercourse.  It just doesn't matter to her.  I told her she was asexual; she agreed.  So it begs the question, is it a sin to be married and have no physical intimacy if you both agree to it?  Since there is no one being denied, is it a sin?  We are both strong believers and want to honor God first.  Thanks in advance for any input.

Have you asked her how she feels about this decision? Was it made together? Even if she is asexual, it might bring her pleasure just knowing you are pleased. She might be concerned that if you do not want it anymore, maybe you are having an affair, who knows? All I can say is to talk frankly with her about how you feel, and seek her opinion on how to proceed.

Well God does say not to deprive each other of sex so I suppose it is a sin. The thing is that even if one does not' fee'l like sex there are ways of making that spouse feel they are wanted when you do have sex. I think there is something that has been causing your wife to be repressed in this area. Maybe she was bought up to think that sex is dirty, maybe other things happened to make her hate sex.Maybe she thinks that 'good Christian women' shouldnt enjoy sex. Physically we all have the ability to enjoy sex, and just to see the other spouse enjoying it should bring great pleasure. I doubt that she is asexual.
I would suggest some good marriage counselling, which may lead to some good sexual therapy counselling. Its a shame that you didnt seek help earlier, but its never too late.

Did you ever tell her how unhappy you are with the fact that she just' allows' it and makes no effort to enjoy it?Its awful for a man to know that his wife is just doing it to  'keep  him quiet'.

I don't see your actions as selfish or prideful.  It isn't your choice that she is asexual or anorgasmic or whatever.  I assume that if she desired something sexual, you would comply, but she doesn't desire anything. 

Even if someone is anorgasmic they can feel closeness/intimacy from sex.  Sex is also a way that people feel needed/wanted/desired.

If you are around age 60, yes it is true that people do choose at some point in their lives to stop having interourse.  Hopefully there could be some mutual understanding about this.

I guess an unspoken variable in my mind is frequency.  I think it remains to be seen how this will effect you, to say that sex will suddenly suddenly stop.  Will you be able to go back if desired.
Marriage counseling or sex therapy may be helpful.

The question remains, is it a sin?  It's a simple yes or no question.

The question remains, is it a sin?  It's a simple yes or no question.

The question remains, is it a sin?  It's a simple yes or no question.

Quote from: 42yearsago on Thu Jan 10, 2013 - 06:48:48
The question remains, is it a sin?  It's a simple yes or no question.

Since the original language words translated "sin" in both the OT and NT are archery terms meaning to miss the target, do you think your decision to go without hits the mark of God's will?

If not then it would be sin.

You would make a great politician.

Since you've expanded the intent and are looking at it from an oblique perspective, is it God's will that I've been put in this position?

You said in your original post a couple of different things.


Like you have been married for 43 years


and that you now want to stop having sex even though your wife doesn't claim to enjoy it.
But that once you told her she got angry about it.


and where you believe you have won the argument with her...by using logical points and reason...you still don't feel like you have won the war.


Sure, I can argue and use logic and win a lot of arguments. But that doesn't mean that I have actually changed the other person's mind.


and where you might have issues with your wife's reaction to your physical intimacy...that would be a place to start. Her words have wounded you and your ego. she has never apologized for them.


But also...if you have been married for that long. Her desires for physical intimacy will rise. (Most women's do as they age) and yours will decline as you age. All part of the natural order of things.


So....since she was gracious to you when you are young...you can be gracious to her when you both age. Not as an "even steven" type scenario...but a giving of yourself as she has given of herself.


Paul says for husbands and wives not to deny each other...and it is for more reasons than I can list here that physical intimacy should not ever stop between spouses.


So...yes...it is a sin. One that can cost you your marriage and others around you their marriage.

I don't think you paid attention to what I said.  She has never been, or is she now, interested in sex.  No one is denying anybody anything since no wants anything or is asking for anything.  Just because I'd like to have it doesn't mean I have to ask for it or expect it.  If I'm willing to sacrifice and give up my "rights" as a husband so she doesn't have to "perform" then I don't see the problem.  42 years of having sex with a wife that doesn't enjoy what God has designed seems absurd to me and quite selfish.

Quote from: 42yearsago on Thu Jan 10, 2013 - 10:34:18
I don't think you paid attention to what I said.  She has never been, or is she now, interested in sex.  No one is denying anybody anything since no wants anything or is asking for anything.  Just because I'd like to have it doesn't mean I have to ask for it or expect it.  If I'm willing to sacrifice and give up my "rights" as a husband so she doesn't have to "perform" then I don't see the problem.  42 years of having sex with a wife that doesn't enjoy what God has designed seems absurd to me and quite selfish.

YES...I paid closer attention than you.


LOL


Look. women are made up of thousands of emotions that come and go like the wind. Sure at one point she didn't enjoy sex. Probably said in a fashion that hurt your ego as well. But you loved her with "putting up with it".


BUT


You also said this:

QuoteThis morning I told her that from now on we are going to be celibate and I will keep my hands to myself.  I think she's upset with my decision but I don't know why.

And that is due to your unilateral decision partly.
And partly because her hormones (that control drive for physical intimacy) have also changed.


So...actually she is being deprived. Sex is a touchy subject for a lot of women. According to all decency and propriety by public standards True Ladies are not supposed to ever enjoy and like sex. (when actually something other is actually true)


And that is why she is upset. She may not feel comfortable in admitting it. But there it is.


Also. A woman thrives on being attractive...especially to the husband that she loves. Both of your ages are getting up there these days. She ain't 20-something any longer. But she still wants to see the effects of your desire for her. Words ain't gonna cut the mustard.


I know you think you are doing right...but it just ain't so. You hurt her feelings this morning and you need to say your sorry. She did the same to you in the past...and that wasn't right either. soooo...overlook all of that and be the same good spiritual leader in your house that you have been.

Why do I bother.  You guys just don't get it.  I knew this was just a shot in the dark.  Thanks for the input but you're way off base with what you think is happening with her.  She has had NO desire since day one and still doesn't and she freely admits it.  Why is that so hard to understand?

Can you explain why she got upset with your decision to stop "making her perform"? Have you talked with her about it?

I think that not having sex will damage your marriage and ruin the closeness and intimacy. Its not Gods will for us to not have sex with our spouse.
Thats why he says that we must not deny the other.
Someone said that sometimes a decision is made as we get older to stop sex, and I would ask, why?There is no reason, excepting very bad health, to stop sex at any age.

Why arent you willing to go to counselling and sort this out? I doubt that she is asexual at all.

No I haven't talked to her about it.  It hasn't even been approached.  It's as if it hasn't even been discussed.  Unless I'm imagining things, it's as if a big burdon has been lifted.  This has been an ongoing discussion for 41 years.  I think she's glad I've finally put it to rest.  I'm off from work for the next 3 days.  Believe me, if she wants to talk this will be the weekend that it will happen.  If Monday morning comes and there has been no discussion or adendum, then I'll know for sure all is fine.

Quote from: 42yearsago on Thu Jan 10, 2013 - 15:22:44
No I haven't talked to her about it.  It hasn't even been approached.  It's as if it hasn't even been discussed.  Unless I'm imagining things, it's as if a big burdon has been lifted.  This has been an ongoing discussion for 41 years.  I think she's glad I've finally put it to rest.  I'm off from work for the next 3 days.  Believe me, if she wants to talk this will be the weekend that it will happen.  If Monday morning comes and there has been no discussion or adendum, then I'll know for sure all is fine.

This should had been settled long ago.  Why be concern with it now?  Did you get a good second wind?  I am going on sixty five and slowing down my friend, what the secret? If you want to stop having sex, then stop, no sin.  Yet, you are commanded to love your wife, so you cannot stop doing that, regardless sex or no sex. Is she a good woman, except in bed?  Then, what the big deal? If you were between your twenties late forties, then I can see a concern.  Once you get sixty and above, one should be slowing down a little.   Why be over concerned now, is my point? 

RB

I am getting mixed messages. On one hand you say "No I haven't talked to her about it.  It hasn't even been approached.  It's as if it hasn't even been discussed" then one sentence later, you say "This has been an ongoing discussion for 41 years."

Also, you have said it was your decision, but you thought at first she was not happy about it, and now you say you think she is relieved... Rather than speculate about how she is feeling about, why not ask her? Don't wait for her to bring it up, especially if she is a more passive type of person. There is nothing stopping you from bringing it up with her and seeking her input. If you ask her and bring it up, she will know that you care about her and how she feels about "your" decision - and you won't have to speculate about it.

If you are worried about whether it is sin, that is a decision you and your wife have to make together. It says in the Bible that you should not deprive each other (that also means she can't deprive you, and indeed has not deprived you all these years) except by mutual consent, and only for a time so you can devote yourselves to prayer. So rather than make the decision on your own, which you have done, you need to make the decision mutually. You might also want to agree on a time, say a month or two, to devote yourselves to prayer. Maybe after seriously praying about this, you will both come to see that you want to be together sexually.

As Chosenone said, I also wonder if sex is simply disappointing for her, or even traumatic for her, rather than just assume she is asexual. Asexual people are very, very rare. I'm willing to be there is something else going on with her. I must give her much credit, though, if she warned you before marrying you, and also satisfied you all those years. Still, God intended for sex to be mutually enjoyable in marriage, and it would make sense to me that even if she is unable to enjoy being a recipient, she might still enjoy pleasing you.

imo, you need to talk with her about your decision rather than simply tell her that this is the way it is and that is all there is to it.

I think "upset" is way to strong a word.  More like shocked that I actually put my foot down and basically said enough is enough.  No we haven't discussed it, but not because there hasn't been opportunity.  I'm off from work the next 3 days.  If by Monday morning a discussion hasn't taken place, then I'll assume that all is right with her and we'll go on from there.  But like I said before, what's there not to like from her perspective?  She gets to not have sex with me and doesn't have to feel like there is an impending time when she does.  A win win for her.  It's perfect.

Concerning other posted replies, people keep bringing up that it isn't right to deny your spouse.  That's true and I absolutely agree.  But in this case, if there isn't anything being asked for, how can it be denied?

QuoteI'm off from work the next 3 days.  If by Monday morning a discussion hasn't taken place, then I'll assume that all is right with her and we'll go on from there.  But like I said before, what's there not to like from her perspective?  She gets to not have sex with me and doesn't have to feel like there is an impending time when she does.  A win win for her.  It's perfect.

I'm not sure, but it sounds like you might be expecting her to initiate discussion about her feelings regarding your decision. I am suggesting it should be you who initiates it, and if there is not opportunity in the next three days, imo, you should make opportunity. It is not necessarily win-win. It might be win for her (although it might not be, as we do not know how she feels). But it is certainly not a win for you, as you will be deprived of sexual intimacy with your wife. That is not win-win.

QuoteConcerning other posted replies, people keep bringing up that it isn't right to deny your spouse.  That's true and I absolutely agree.  But in this case, if there isn't anything being asked for, how can it be denied?

You are denying yourself, and  you are denying her the opportunity to bring you pleasure, whether she enjoys it or not.

I think a much healthier approach to resolving the sexual issue in your marriage is to talk about where her "asexuality" comes from (trauma, abuse...?), and then create a therapeutic environment for her to learn to find pleasure in expressing her sexuality. Imo, it is never too late to work on healing the broken areas of our lives, and this sounds like a broken part of her life, and it has affected your marriage to the point where I might think you could be somewhat resentful of her lack of interest. Would she talk with a counsellor?

Anyway, I hope the two of you are able to work it out so that it truly is a win-win.

Sorry, I could not reply to your PM because it says your inbox is full. Here is my response:

I understand what you are saying, but you say "if nothing is said this weekend..." My question is if you are waiting for her to initiate the conversation, or if you are going to be proactive about making the discussion happen. My point is you might need to be the one to bring it up, and I think you should bring it up rather than speculate on her POV. Don't be passive in this. If you care about how she feels about it, then you be the one to initiate discussion.

However, it seems you are only trying to justify your decision and are looking for others to support that decision, which is why you are getting the responses you're getting.

Quote from: 42yearsago on Wed Jan 09, 2013 - 20:49:36
...  To me it seems selfish and prideful to keep putting her in the position of having to "perform".  This morning I told her that from now on we are going to be celibate and I will keep my hands to myself.  I think she's upset with my decision but I don't know why.  I would think she would embrace it.

42,

I think your wife's response here is a clear indication that things are not what they appear to be. What surprises me even more, however, is that your question to us is not, "why do you think she would react that way?" but simply, "is it a sin to be married and have no physical intimacy if you both agree to it?"

The fact is that sex is a very personal thing, related to a person's deepest, most hidden feelings.  Your wife has never given you any indication that she ever enjoyed or desired sex, but that doesn't necessarily mean she got nothing out of it.  As our brother, JohnDB pointed out:

Quote from: JohnDB on Thu Jan 10, 2013 - 10:55:00
... actually she is being deprived. Sex is a touchy subject for a lot of women. According to all decency and propriety by public standards True Ladies are not supposed to ever enjoy and like sex. (when actually something other is actually true)

In other words, she may still be enjoying it on some level, even though she may feel a need to keep this an absolute secret--even from you.  Therefore, she acts completely disinterested, and readily agrees with you when you tell her that she is "asexual," but that doesn't necessarily mean that these are her true feelings.  Consider this carefully before you assume that this is a "mutual decision."

Another thing I found troublesome was your statement, "I will keep my hands to myself."  Does this mean no more touching at all?  No more hugs and kisses--nothing?  It really sounds as if you are looking to punish her for all these years of being a cold fish in bed.  If this is the case, then you really need to re-examine your own motives, as this would certainly be a sin.

She probably does't enjoy sex and was upset when you stopped, because she liked pleasing you, but now she can't. But if she enjoys pleasing, then she must enjoy it somewhat.

QuoteBelieve me, if she wants to talk this will be the weekend that it will happen.  If Monday morning comes and there has been no discussion or adendum, then I'll know for sure all is fine.

This is a great example of avoiding an uncomfortable discussion by assuming the meaning of silence.  We all do it at one time or another-- especially men.  But all you may know by Monday is that she is not saying anything about it.  Assuming that we know the meaning of silence is generally unwise.  Taking unilateral action and then assuming everything is fine because nobody objected out loud does not sound like wisdom.  Sometimes we talk, but we don't really say what's on our minds.  Sometimes we are silent for the same reason. This sounds like a classic matter for counseling by a professional.  (Certainly more than advice we can offer here. ) Not for a counselor to "fix" either one of you, but to help you repair a communication and intimacy model that has been broken for some time.  This could benefit much more than just your sex life.

Quote from: apostle on Tue Feb 19, 2013 - 16:44:39

QuoteBelieve me, if she wants to talk this will be the weekend that it will happen.  If Monday morning comes and there has been no discussion or adendum, then I'll know for sure all is fine.

This is a great example of avoiding an uncomfortable discussion by assuming the meaning of silence.  We all do it at one time or another-- especially men.  But all you may know by Monday is that she is not saying anything about it.  Assuming that we know the meaning of silence is generally unwise.  Taking unilateral action and then assuming everything is fine because nobody objected out loud does not sound like wisdom.  Sometimes we talk, but we don't really say what's on our minds.  Sometimes we are silent for the same reason. This sounds like a classic matter for counseling by a professional.  (Certainly more than advice we can offer here. ) Not for a counselor to "fix" either one of you, but to help you repair a communication and intimacy model that has been broken for some time.  This could benefit much more than just your sex life.

I agree. Good communication is vital for a clear understanding of what is going on here.  Also sex in marriage is so important, she really needs to understand this. I hope that with good Christian counsellors she can be shown this and will respond in obedience to God. At the monent she is in total disobedience.
Whatever we 'feel' like, we need to do things that are for our spouse and for the marriage. God will bless and honour that.

You must have more patience than me.  I wouldn't have made it past a year or so.

Jarrod

I feel your pain.  Definitely NOT a sin.  Don't listen to this other drivel.  NOT a sin. 

What is not a sin?

Quote from: chosenone on Tue May 28, 2013 - 17:29:25
What is not a sin?

I think he was answering this question.

Quote from: 42yearsago on Wed Jan 09, 2013 - 20:49:36So it begs the question, is it a sin to be married and have no physical intimacy if you both agree to it?  Since there is no one being denied, is it a sin?  We are both strong believers and want to honor God first.  Thanks in advance for any input.

Quote from: Bitter Sweet on Tue May 28, 2013 - 17:46:12

Quote from: chosenoneWhat is not a sin?

I think he was answering this question.

Quote from: 42yearsago on Wed Jan 09, 2013 - 20:49:36So it begs the question, is it a sin to be married and have no physical intimacy if you both agree to it?  Since there is no one being denied, is it a sin?  We are both strong believers and want to honor God first.  Thanks in advance for any input.

And the answer is the same: YES.

Regular sex is COMMANDED in both testaments. To ignore that for your personal preference is definitely sinful.

Quote from: DaveW on Wed May 29, 2013 - 05:24:39

Quote from: Bitter Sweet on Tue May 28, 2013 - 17:46:12

Quote from: chosenoneWhat is not a sin?

I think he was answering this question.

Quote from: 42yearsago on Wed Jan 09, 2013 - 20:49:36So it begs the question, is it a sin to be married and have no physical intimacy if you both agree to it?  Since there is no one being denied, is it a sin?  We are both strong believers and want to honor God first.  Thanks in advance for any input.

And the answer is the same: YES.

Regular sex is COMMANDED in both testaments. To ignore that for your personal preference is definitely sinful.

As well as not being good for the marriage.

I think that usually if there is no sex or very little sex, its because one spouse is refusing, and the other spouse just  puts up with it. I suspect that it is very very rare that both are perfectly content never to have sex.

Quote from: DaveW on Wed May 29, 2013 - 05:24:39
Regular sex is COMMANDED in both testaments. To ignore that for your personal preference is definitely sinful.

BCV please. How often is regular? Not your personal preference either, bcv of how often it should be as commanded by God. Everyday? What if your spouse is traveling 6 days a week or away for months/years at a time (army)? Commandments are fairly serious, what's going to happen to those people that don't have "regular" sex, are they condemned?

What happens if 2 people that are physically disabled (paralyzed from the waist down), are married and physically unable to have sex? Should they have just avoid marriage all together? Lots of people marry for benefits, children and companionship too, not just for sex.

QuoteBCV please.

Exodus 21. 10-11
1 Cor 7.3

QuoteHow often is regular?

1 Cor 7.5   Background on this verse: Paul was trained by Gamaliel who was grandson of Hillel.  Hillel and Shammai both ruled on "how long" an abstinence for prayer could be agreed to. Hillel said one week and Shammai said 2 weeks.

One could say that they were both pharisees and therefore have no bearing on us.  Here is what the Lord said about the teachings of the pharisees:

Matthew 23:2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses;
3  therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them."

So even if both agree, 2 weeks is the MAX time you should go between times of intimacy.

Quote from: DaveW on Wed May 29, 2013 - 07:41:21

QuoteBCV please.

Exodus 21. 10-11
1 Cor 7.3

QuoteHow often is regular?

1 Cor 7.5   Background on this verse: Paul was trained by Gamaliel who was grandson of Hillel.  Hillel and Shammai both ruled on "how long" an abstinence for prayer could be agreed to. Hillel said one week and Shammai said 2 weeks.

One could say that they were both pharisees and therefore have no bearing on us.  Here is what the Lord said about the teachings of the pharisees:

Matthew 23:2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses;
3  therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them."

So even if both agree, 2 weeks is the MAX time you should go between times of intimacy.

I'm a little confused by exodus you refereed to, does the woman have to be sold to the man by the father first? My dad didn't sell me so am I exempt from that rule? Does that make me a Pharisee?

Also, in Corinthians, doesn't that only apply to people that were sexually immoral either prior or during marriage? What about virgins that aren't sexually immoral prior to marriage?

What if a married couple hasn't had any sexual immorality occur during their marriage? They would be exempt from that too since they aren't full of lust and cheating on each other? That's what that rule was made for, right, the sexually immoral?

Good questions Bitter.

Remember what Our Lord said about the Pharisees. (obey them for they sit in Moses' chair)

Yes the Exodus passage is about slave wives. The pharisees reasoned this way:  if God is that concerned about a slave