Christian Forums

Quote from: AVZ on Thu Apr 25, 2013 - 10:40:23

Quote from: Black KnightMI on Mon Apr 22, 2013 - 11:58:06

Quote from: Lively Stone on Mon Apr 22, 2013 - 01:14:00

Quote3.  Besides ordinary benefits, what do those gain who read portions of the Bible every day?

"A partial indulgence is granted to the faithful, who with the veneration due to the divine word make a spiritual reading from Sacred Scripture.  A plenary indulgence is granted, if this reading is continued for at least one half an hour." (Enchiridion of Indulgences.  Authorized English edition.  1969.  Catholic Book Publishers.  New York.  Page 68.  # 50)

Wow. That is a bad answer, indeed, and is a very strong indication of religion's stronghold on works.

The real answer is that a person who gets into the word daily gets to know God more and more, and gains wisdom and knowledge.

No faithful Catholic will argue that we need to read the Bible. But where in the Bible does it say that anyone must read it every day or must read it in order to be saved?

If that is true, the what about all the years between  Our Lord's ascension and the writing of the 1st New Testament documents which was some 25 or so years later?  What about those illiterate, who cannot read at all back then and even today?

Then Bible does not tell us that we must read it, yet all faithful Christians love it and read it, which is as it should be. But I know of know scripture that tells us it is sinful not to do so.

As for the indulgence it is simply a measure to help encourage Catholics to do what they should be doing. It is part of the binding and loosing aspect of the Church, which is quite scriptural.

BTW Grams, where exactly was this church that you went to as a kid?

Nowhere in the Bible is it mentioned that one should attend church once a week, or twice, or once a month...
Still we do attend because we know that Jesus did, and He is our example.
If we follow His example, we would also study Gods Word diligently.

But, that is hardly the point here.
The RCC is well aware that reading and studying the Bible is a good thing and you rightfully acknowledge so.
As all good things the church is supposed to encourage her members to keep the good.

Yet, the RCC does exactly the opposite and discourages her members from studying or reading the Bible.

This is inconsistent and finds its origin in times where the RCC was seeking power and control rather than spiritual enlightenment.
But since the RCC has decided for herself that she can never be wrong, it is very hard to turn around and tell her members that she was wrong.

The other danger of course is that members of the RCC may accidentially start developing a personal relationship with Christ.
And that would mean that the church and papacy will take a second place, obviously not to the benefit of the RCC.

You said: "Yet, the RCC does exactly the opposite and discourages her members from studying or reading the Bible".

Not true at all my friend. We are encouraged to read the Holy Scriptures with the admonition that we are not to interpret them for ourselves. Imagine if everyone tried to do that, why we would have thousands of interpretations within the bosom of the Holy Catholic Church. Such a thing would be madness, madness I tell you!

 As Ladonia has pointed out we are encouraged to read Sacred Scripture as these extracts from the Vatican II document Dei Verbum (Dogmatic Constitution On Divine Revelation)

22. Easy access to Sacred Scripture should be provided for all the Christian faithful. That is why the Church from the very beginning accepted as her own that very ancient Greek translation; of the Old Testament which is called the septuagint; and she has always given a place of honor to other Eastern translations and Latin ones especially the Latin translation known as the vulgate. But since the word of God should be accessible at all times, the Church by her authority and with maternal concern sees to it that suitable and correct translations are made into different languages, especially from the original texts of the sacred books. And should the opportunity arise and the Church authorities approve, if these translations are produced in cooperation with the separated brethren as well, all Christians will be able to use them.

25,..........The sacred synod also earnestly and especially urges all the Christian faithful, especially Religious, to learn by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures the "excellent knowledge of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 3:8). "For ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ."(5) Therefore, they should gladly put themselves in touch with the sacred text itself, whether it be through the liturgy, rich in the divine word, or through devotional reading, or through instructions suitable for the purpose and other aids which, in our time, with approval and active support of the shepherds of the Church, are commendably spread everywhere. And let them remember that prayer should accompany the reading of Sacred Scripture, so that God and man may talk together; for "we speak to Him when we pray; we hear Him when we read the divine saying." (6)

26. In this way, therefore, through the reading and study of the sacred books "the word of God may spread rapidly and be glorified" (2 Thess. 3:1) and the treasure of revelation, entrusted to the Church, may more and more fill the hearts of men. Just as the life of the Church is strengthened through more frequent celebration of the Eucharistic mystery, similar we may hope for a new stimulus for the life of the Spirit from a growing reverence for the word of God, which "lasts forever" (Is. 40:8; see 1 Peter 1:23-25).

Quote from: Ladonia on Thu Apr 25, 2013 - 11:18:38

Quote from: AVZ on Thu Apr 25, 2013 - 10:40:23

Quote from: Black KnightMI on Mon Apr 22, 2013 - 11:58:06

Quote from: Lively Stone on Mon Apr 22, 2013 - 01:14:00

Quote3.  Besides ordinary benefits, what do those gain who read portions of the Bible every day?

"A partial indulgence is granted to the faithful, who with the veneration due to the divine word make a spiritual reading from Sacred Scripture.  A plenary indulgence is granted, if this reading is continued for at least one half an hour." (Enchiridion of Indulgences.  Authorized English edition.  1969.  Catholic Book Publishers.  New York.  Page 68.  # 50)

Wow. That is a bad answer, indeed, and is a very strong indication of religion's stronghold on works.

The real answer is that a person who gets into the word daily gets to know God more and more, and gains wisdom and knowledge.

No faithful Catholic will argue that we need to read the Bible. But where in the Bible does it say that anyone must read it every day or must read it in order to be saved?

If that is true, the what about all the years between  Our Lord's ascension and the writing of the 1st New Testament documents which was some 25 or so years later?  What about those illiterate, who cannot read at all back then and even today?

Then Bible does not tell us that we must read it, yet all faithful Christians love it and read it, which is as it should be. But I know of know scripture that tells us it is sinful not to do so.

As for the indulgence it is simply a measure to help encourage Catholics to do what they should be doing. It is part of the binding and loosing aspect of the Church, which is quite scriptural.

BTW Grams, where exactly was this church that you went to as a kid?

Nowhere in the Bible is it mentioned that one should attend church once a week, or twice, or once a month...
Still we do attend because we know that Jesus did, and He is our example.
If we follow His example, we would also study Gods Word diligently.

But, that is hardly the point here.
The RCC is well aware that reading and studying the Bible is a good thing and you rightfully acknowledge so.
As all good things the church is supposed to encourage her members to keep the good.

Yet, the RCC does exactly the opposite and discourages her members from studying or reading the Bible.

This is inconsistent and finds its origin in times where the RCC was seeking power and control rather than spiritual enlightenment.
But since the RCC has decided for herself that she can never be wrong, it is very hard to turn around and tell her members that she was wrong.

The other danger of course is that members of the RCC may accidentially start developing a personal relationship with Christ.
And that would mean that the church and papacy will take a second place, obviously not to the benefit of the RCC.

You said: "Yet, the RCC does exactly the opposite and discourages her members from studying or reading the Bible".

Not true at all my friend. We are encouraged to read the Holy Scriptures with the admonition that we are not to interpret them for ourselves. Imagine if everyone tried to do that, why we would have thousands of interpretations within the bosom of the Holy Catholic Church. Such a thing would be madness, madness I tell you!

The Gospel could not have been spread if it did not make people think.
In fact the gentiles could not have turned to Christ if not for their personal conviction and reason.
The same story of the Gospel also teaches us that those who were told NOT to think (the Jews) missed out of the Gospel.

What you are proposing is self-defeating.
You cannot ask someone to read the Bible, and leave his interpretation at home.
the Gospel can only grow and spread because it is a message that challenges common sense and opinions.

Basically what the RCC is asking from her members is to read the Bible, but send their brains on holiday.
I am not buying it, and I dont have to because I know first hand that members of the RCC are NOT being encouraged to study the Bible.

Quote from: winsome on Thu Apr 25, 2013 - 12:07:53
As Ladonia has pointed out we are encouraged to read Sacred Scripture as these extracts from the Vatican II document Dei Verbum (Dogmatic Constitution On Divine Revelation)

22. Easy access to Sacred Scripture should be provided for all the Christian faithful. That is why the Church from the very beginning accepted as her own that very ancient Greek translation; of the Old Testament which is called the septuagint; and she has always given a place of honor to other Eastern translations and Latin ones especially the Latin translation known as the vulgate. But since the word of God should be accessible at all times, the Church by her authority and with maternal concern sees to it that suitable and correct translations are made into different languages, especially from the original texts of the sacred books. And should the opportunity arise and the Church authorities approve, if these translations are produced in cooperation with the separated brethren as well, all Christians will be able to use them.

25,..........The sacred synod also earnestly and especially urges all the Christian faithful, especially Religious, to learn by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures the "excellent knowledge of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 3:8). "For ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ."(5) Therefore, they should gladly put themselves in touch with the sacred text itself, whether it be through the liturgy, rich in the divine word, or through devotional reading, or through instructions suitable for the purpose and other aids which, in our time, with approval and active support of the shepherds of the Church, are commendably spread everywhere. And let them remember that prayer should accompany the reading of Sacred Scripture, so that God and man may talk together; for "we speak to Him when we pray; we hear Him when we read the divine saying." (6)

26. In this way, therefore, through the reading and study of the sacred books "the word of God may spread rapidly and be glorified" (2 Thess. 3:1) and the treasure of revelation, entrusted to the Church, may more and more fill the hearts of men. Just as the life of the Church is strengthened through more frequent celebration of the Eucharistic mystery, similar we may hope for a new stimulus for the life of the Spirit from a growing reverence for the word of God, which "lasts forever" (Is. 40:8; see 1 Peter 1:23-25).

Winsome,

Sounds and looks nice, but reality is that the RCC does NOT encourage Bible study.
As one of your colleagues said earlier: It is perfectly fine if a Catholic never reads or opens a Bible or even own one.

Look at your own church, I am sure that if the priest one day would say "OK, open your Bible to......" most of the people would be quite embarrassed because they didnt bring a Bible.
Also no Bibles in the pews.
And even if there were...most catholics wouldnt find the books anyway.

Sure you can post many directives here...but if you would be realistic...Bible knowledge by Catholics is really very sad.

Quote from: AVZ on Thu Apr 25, 2013 - 15:55:45

Quote from: winsome on Thu Apr 25, 2013 - 12:07:53
As Ladonia has pointed out we are encouraged to read Sacred Scripture as these extracts from the Vatican II document Dei Verbum (Dogmatic Constitution On Divine Revelation)

22. Easy access to Sacred Scripture should be provided for all the Christian faithful. That is why the Church from the very beginning accepted as her own that very ancient Greek translation; of the Old Testament which is called the septuagint; and she has always given a place of honor to other Eastern translations and Latin ones especially the Latin translation known as the vulgate. But since the word of God should be accessible at all times, the Church by her authority and with maternal concern sees to it that suitable and correct translations are made into different languages, especially from the original texts of the sacred books. And should the opportunity arise and the Church authorities approve, if these translations are produced in cooperation with the separated brethren as well, all Christians will be able to use them.

25,..........The sacred synod also earnestly and especially urges all the Christian faithful, especially Religious, to learn by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures the "excellent knowledge of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 3:8). "For ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ."(5) Therefore, they should gladly put themselves in touch with the sacred text itself, whether it be through the liturgy, rich in the divine word, or through devotional reading, or through instructions suitable for the purpose and other aids which, in our time, with approval and active support of the shepherds of the Church, are commendably spread everywhere. And let them remember that prayer should accompany the reading of Sacred Scripture, so that God and man may talk together; for "we speak to Him when we pray; we hear Him when we read the divine saying." (6)

26. In this way, therefore, through the reading and study of the sacred books "the word of God may spread rapidly and be glorified" (2 Thess. 3:1) and the treasure of revelation, entrusted to the Church, may more and more fill the hearts of men. Just as the life of the Church is strengthened through more frequent celebration of the Eucharistic mystery, similar we may hope for a new stimulus for the life of the Spirit from a growing reverence for the word of God, which "lasts forever" (Is. 40:8; see 1 Peter 1:23-25).

Winsome,

Sounds and looks nice, but reality is that the RCC does NOT encourage Bible study.
As one of your colleagues said earlier: It is perfectly fine if a Catholic never reads or opens a Bible or even own one.

It is not necessary because we hear scripture at Mass.  We also do not need to read a Bible to invent doctrines as Protestants do because we have received them from the apostles. We don't need to keep re-invennting the wheel.

But the Church DOES encourage peoplel to read the Bible whatever you think. And it provides scriopture courses and encourages the use of scripture based prayer

Quote from: AVZ on Thu Apr 25, 2013 - 15:55:45
Look at your own church, I am sure that if the priest one day would say "OK, open your Bible to......" most of the people would be quite embarrassed because they didnt bring a Bible.
Also no Bibles in the pews.

Of course there aren't. The Mass is not a Bible study session. But there are several readings from scripture at MAss, and frequently the church provides missalettes or books with the reading in them. Bible study is for small groups or prayer groups. There was a prayer ,meeting I used to go to that always encouraged people to bring a Bible.

Quote from: AVZ on Thu Apr 25, 2013 - 15:55:45
And even if there were...most catholics wouldnt find the books anyway.

That's just bigotry.

Quote from: AVZ on Thu Apr 25, 2013 - 15:55:45
Sure you can post many directives here...but if you would be realistic...Bible knowledge by Catholics is really very sad.

You don't know that. It's just your prejudices speaking there.

Winsome - I am curious.  You quote sections from Vatican 2 saying that scriptures should be available to all. 

Was that a change that came from V2 or has it been the policy of the RCC for a long time?

I understand the reason that the KJV was called "authorized" was that before 1611 it was a capital offense to have an English translation of the scriptures. So it was the first legal and authorized (by King James) English version.

Quote from: DaveW on Fri Apr 26, 2013 - 06:37:48
Winsome - I am curious.  You quote sections from Vatican 2 saying that scriptures should be available to all. 

Was that a change that came from V2 or has it been the policy of the RCC for a long time?

I understand the reason that the KJV was called "authorized" was that before 1611 it was a capital offense to have an English translation of the scriptures. So it was the first legal and authorized (by King James) English version.

As far as I know it has always been the case.

The Douay-Rheims English translation was produced before the KJV.

The NT was published in 1582, then Old Testament in two volumes in 1609 & 1610.

The idea that the Catholic Church forbade the translating of the Bible is a Protestant myth.

I don't know about a "capital offence". There were bans on some Protestant translations because of poor translation and highly anti-Catholic comments in them.

As to the KJV being the first legal and authorised version, that was under Protestantism. Incidentally Protestants banned people from reading the Bible.

  "1543 was to bring its own catastrophic set-back for the cause of reform, the notorious Act, passed on 10th May, "for the advancement of true religion"... Severe penalties were therefore imposed on those who had or kept any books containing doctrines contrary to those authorised since 1540. The Act targeted unauthorised versions of the scriptures, in particular Tyndale's New Testament, and it forbade altogether the reading of scripture in private by "women... artificers, prentices, journeymen, serving men of the degrees of yeomen or under, husbandmen or labourers.", though noble and gentlewomen might read the Bible in private. Persistent clerical offenders against this Act might be burned, laymen were subject to forfeiture of goods and perpetual imprisonment."
(Eamon Duffy, The Stripping of the Altars pp432-433)

About the year 1583, Sir Francis Walsingham ordered the seizure of the Rheims. Persons in England found with it were imprisoned. Torture was applied to those Englishmen who sold or otherwise circulated it.

Quote from: Lively Stone on Thu Mar 28, 2013 - 19:07:56

Quote from: Swiss_Guard on Thu Mar 28, 2013 - 18:32:07

Quote from: LightHammer on Fri Mar 15, 2013 - 10:27:06

Quote from: grams on Fri Mar 15, 2013 - 05:33:12
Man made religion.
I came from that !  I now believe in Gods word I read from my bible !

Let me give you a quick example, and I do have a lot!  one for now.

Communion !

The nuns and priest told us back then we could not touch the communion "wafer"
! 
"we were told some one did and it bleed  at the touch..........."

Now a days does that sound dumb ?

And some one chewed the wafer !   And it also bleed !

 
I would say that was mans ideas !  WHY ?

Are you illiterate?

You need to ask? ;)

Wow.

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/general-discussion-forum/try-to-be-nice!/msg1054814202/#msg1054814202

My sentiments exactly LS! Shame on all of you for name calling and your holier than thou attitudes! Going back to things from old "IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANYTHING NICE TO SAY... DON'T SAY ANYTHING AT ALL!" 

Matthew 7:1-5
"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."

Quote from: AVZ on Thu Apr 25, 2013 - 15:47:54

Quote from: Ladonia on Thu Apr 25, 2013 - 11:18:38

Quote from: AVZ on Thu Apr 25, 2013 - 10:40:23

Quote from: Black KnightMI on Mon Apr 22, 2013 - 11:58:06

Quote from: Lively Stone on Mon Apr 22, 2013 - 01:14:00

Quote3.  Besides ordinary benefits, what do those gain who read portions of the Bible every day?

"A partial indulgence is granted to the faithful, who with the veneration due to the divine word make a spiritual reading from Sacred Scripture.  A plenary indulgence is granted, if this reading is continued for at least one half an hour." (Enchiridion of Indulgences.  Authorized English edition.  1969.  Catholic Book Publishers.  New York.  Page 68.  # 50)

Wow. That is a bad answer, indeed, and is a very strong indication of religion's stronghold on works.

The real answer is that a person who gets into the word daily gets to know God more and more, and gains wisdom and knowledge.

No faithful Catholic will argue that we need to read the Bible. But where in the Bible does it say that anyone must read it every day or must read it in order to be saved?

If that is true, the what about all the years between  Our Lord's ascension and the writing of the 1st New Testament documents which was some 25 or so years later?  What about those illiterate, who cannot read at all back then and even today?

Then Bible does not tell us that we must read it, yet all faithful Christians love it and read it, which is as it should be. But I know of know scripture that tells us it is sinful not to do so.

As for the indulgence it is simply a measure to help encourage Catholics to do what they should be doing. It is part of the binding and loosing aspect of the Church, which is quite scriptural.

BTW Grams, where exactly was this church that you went to as a kid?

Nowhere in the Bible is it mentioned that one should attend church once a week, or twice, or once a month...
Still we do attend because we know that Jesus did, and He is our example.
If we follow His example, we would also study Gods Word diligently.

But, that is hardly the point here.
The RCC is well aware that reading and studying the Bible is a good thing and you rightfully acknowledge so.
As all good things the church is supposed to encourage her members to keep the good.

Yet, the RCC does exactly the opposite and discourages her members from studying or reading the Bible.

This is inconsistent and finds its origin in times where the RCC was seeking power and control rather than spiritual enlightenment.
But since the RCC has decided for herself that she can never be wrong, it is very hard to turn around and tell her members that she was wrong.

The other danger of course is that members of the RCC may accidentially start developing a personal relationship with Christ.
And that would mean that the church and papacy will take a second place, obviously not to the benefit of the RCC.

You said: "Yet, the RCC does exactly the opposite and discourages her members from studying or reading the Bible".

Not true at all my friend. We are encouraged to read the Holy Scriptures with the admonition that we are not to interpret them for ourselves. Imagine if everyone tried to do that, why we would have thousands of interpretations within the bosom of the Holy Catholic Church. Such a thing would be madness, madness I tell you!

The Gospel could not have been spread if it did not make people think.
In fact the gentiles could not have turned to Christ if not for their personal conviction and reason.
The same story of the Gospel also teaches us that those who were told NOT to think (the Jews) missed out of the Gospel.

What you are proposing is self-defeating.
You cannot ask someone to read the Bible, and leave his interpretation at home.
the Gospel can only grow and spread because it is a message that challenges common sense and opinions.

Basically what the RCC is asking from her members is to read the Bible, but send their brains on holiday.
I am not buying it, and I dont have to because I know first hand that members of the RCC are NOT being encouraged to study the Bible.

So tell me Avz, we are at the "True Bible Church" on Wednesday night doing Bible study. We are going therough a particular scripture and the Pastor says it means such and such. I rasise my hand and say "Pastor, from my reading I believe it really means this". Three seats down, Brother Joe  raise his hand and says: " I think you are both wrong, it really means this!". So, since none of us has sent their brains on holiday, who has the true meaning of that particular Scripture?

No Avz, what we Catholics do upon reading the Scriptures is to compare what we read and think to what the Church teaches. We look at the totality of the last 2000 years of biblical interpretation, not at what has been taught by some individuals for the last year, the last 10 years, or even the last 500 years, but from the Church as a whole.

Quote from: Ladonia on Fri Apr 26, 2013 - 10:50:16

Quote from: AVZ on Thu Apr 25, 2013 - 15:47:54

Quote from: Ladonia on Thu Apr 25, 2013 - 11:18:38

Quote from: AVZ on Thu Apr 25, 2013 - 10:40:23

Quote from: Black KnightMI on Mon Apr 22, 2013 - 11:58:06

Quote from: Lively Stone on Mon Apr 22, 2013 - 01:14:00

Quote3.  Besides ordinary benefits, what do those gain who read portions of the Bible every day?

"A partial indulgence is granted to the faithful, who with the veneration due to the divine word make a spiritual reading from Sacred Scripture.  A plenary indulgence is granted, if this reading is continued for at least one half an hour." (Enchiridion of Indulgences.  Authorized English edition.  1969.  Catholic Book Publishers.  New York.  Page 68.  # 50)

Wow. That is a bad answer, indeed, and is a very strong indication of religion's stronghold on works.

The real answer is that a person who gets into the word daily gets to know God more and more, and gains wisdom and knowledge.

No faithful Catholic will argue that we need to read the Bible. But where in the Bible does it say that anyone must read it every day or must read it in order to be saved?

If that is true, the what about all the years between  Our Lord's ascension and the writing of the 1st New Testament documents which was some 25 or so years later?  What about those illiterate, who cannot read at all back then and even today?

Then Bible does not tell us that we must read it, yet all faithful Christians love it and read it, which is as it should be. But I know of know scripture that tells us it is sinful not to do so.

As for the indulgence it is simply a measure to help encourage Catholics to do what they should be doing. It is part of the binding and loosing aspect of the Church, which is quite scriptural.

BTW Grams, where exactly was this church that you went to as a kid?

Nowhere in the Bible is it mentioned that one should attend church once a week, or twice, or once a month...
Still we do attend because we know that Jesus did, and He is our example.
If we follow His example, we would also study Gods Word diligently.

But, that is hardly the point here.
The RCC is well aware that reading and studying the Bible is a good thing and you rightfully acknowledge so.
As all good things the church is supposed to encourage her members to keep the good.

Yet, the RCC does exactly the opposite and discourages her members from studying or reading the Bible.

This is inconsistent and finds its origin in times where the RCC was seeking power and control rather than spiritual enlightenment.
But since the RCC has decided for herself that she can never be wrong, it is very hard to turn around and tell her members that she was wrong.

The other danger of course is that members of the RCC may accidentially start developing a personal relationship with Christ.
And that would mean that the church and papacy will take a second place, obviously not to the benefit of the RCC.

You said: "Yet, the RCC does exactly the opposite and discourages her members from studying or reading the Bible".

Not true at all my friend. We are encouraged to read the Holy Scriptures with the admonition that we are not to interpret them for ourselves. Imagine if everyone tried to do that, why we would have thousands of interpretations within the bosom of the Holy Catholic Church. Such a thing would be madness, madness I tell you!

The Gospel could not have been spread if it did not make people think.
In fact the gentiles could not have turned to Christ if not for their personal conviction and reason.
The same story of the Gospel also teaches us that those who were told NOT to think (the Jews) missed out of the Gospel.

What you are proposing is self-defeating.
You cannot ask someone to read the Bible, and leave his interpretation at home.
the Gospel can only grow and spread because it is a message that challenges common sense and opinions.

Basically what the RCC is asking from her members is to read the Bible, but send their brains on holiday.
I am not buying it, and I dont have to because I know first hand that members of the RCC are NOT being encouraged to study the Bible.

So tell me Avz, we are at the "True Bible Church" on Wednesday night doing Bible study. We are going therough a particular scripture and the Pastor says it means such and such. I rasise my hand and say "Pastor, from my reading I believe it really means this". Three seats down, Brother Joe  raise his hand and says: " I think you are both wrong, it really means this!". So, since none of us has sent their brains on holiday, who has the true meaning of that particular Scripture?

No Avz, what we Catholics do upon reading the Scriptures is to compare what we read and think to what the Church teaches. We look at the totality of the last 2000 years of biblical interpretation, not at what has been taught by some individuals for the last year, the last 10 years, or even the last 500 years, but from the Church as a whole.

Who is the church as a whole to you or as your church has taught you. You say 2000 years of biblical interpretation. Who are the seven churches Jesus addressed in Revelation. Do you think they represent the church as a whole. Which church do you think represents yours? If you then think one why, do you think all of them. Does you church hold the key to the interpretation of the letters.

You know its sometimes hard to admit we don't have all the answers, and we are far from from being as smart as we think we are. If we want answers and understanding we often have to pray for God to help us. No room for Pride.

Quote from: FireSword on Thu Apr 25, 2013 - 06:37:41

QuoteWe get the  Bible at every Mass - the Old Testament, the New Testament, and Christ on Calvary. Even a blind person can experience the Holy Writ just by attending

So if its not a lack of scripture, why else is the RCc such a mess and in a worse state than most independent churches with little resources.

You'd have to support that with verifiable facts. The Catholic Church is no more a mess that any of the rest of your post Reformation faith communities and in the cases that I am familiar with are doing pretty well.

Certainly we all have some problems, but your statement is without substance.

Catholics do read and hear the Bible, we just do not necessarily agree with the myriad of diverse interpretations that so many n-Cs offer and if that makes you unhappy, then perhaps you're the one that needs to "Carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth." (2 Timothy 2:15)

Quote from: AVZ on Thu Apr 25, 2013 - 10:40:23

Quote from: Black KnightMI on Mon Apr 22, 2013 - 11:58:06

Quote from: Lively Stone on Mon Apr 22, 2013 - 01:14:00

Quote3.  Besides ordinary benefits, what do those gain who read portions of the Bible every day?

"A partial indulgence is granted to the faithful, who with the veneration due to the divine word make a spiritual reading from Sacred Scripture.  A plenary indulgence is granted, if this reading is continued for at least one half an hour." (Enchiridion of Indulgences.  Authorized English edition.  1969.  Catholic Book Publishers.  New York.  Page 68.  # 50)

Wow. That is a bad answer, indeed, and is a very strong indication of religion's stronghold on works.

The real answer is that a person who gets into the word daily gets to know God more and more, and gains wisdom and knowledge.

No faithful Catholic will argue that we need to read the Bible. But where in the Bible does it say that anyone must read it every day or must read it in order to be saved?

If that is true, the what about all the years between  Our Lord's ascension and the writing of the 1st New Testament documents which was some 25 or so years later?  What about those illiterate, who cannot read at all back then and even today?

Then Bible does not tell us that we must read it, yet all faithful Christians love it and read it, which is as it should be. But I know of know scripture that tells us it is sinful not to do so.

As for the indulgence it is simply a measure to help encourage Catholics to do what they should be doing. It is part of the binding and loosing aspect of the Church, which is quite scriptural.

BTW Grams, where exactly was this church that you went to as a kid?

Nowhere in the Bible is it mentioned that one should attend church once a week, or twice, or once a month...
Still we do attend because we know that Jesus did, and He is our example.
If we follow His example, we would also study Gods Word diligently.

Irrelevant to this discussion...

QuoteBut, that is hardly the point here.
The RCC is well aware that reading and studying the Bible is a good thing and you rightfully acknowledge so.
As all good things the church is supposed to encourage her members to keep the good.

Yet, the RCC does exactly the opposite and discourages her members from studying or reading the Bible.

That's complete hogwash. The people in my own parish read and know the Bible better than most of the n-Cs that I spent over 30 years with. You can believe this propaganda if you like...but it's pretty much just anti-Catholic hogwash put forth by n-Cs who've never encountered me or most of the Catholics that I run with.

QuoteThis is inconsistent and finds its origin in times where the RCC was seeking power and control rather than spiritual enlightenment.
But since the RCC has decided for herself that she can never be wrong, it is very hard to turn around and tell her members that she was wrong.

Got verifiable sources for that stuff? I'd love to see them because they sure do fly in the face of the historical facts... Just because you believe it doesn't make it true.

QuoteThe other danger of course is that members of the RCC may accidentially start developing a personal relationship with Christ.
And that would mean that the church and papacy will take a second place, obviously not to the benefit of the RCC.

Oh yeah...God forbid that we should have any kind of intimate personal relationship with Our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ. God forbid that I personally should spend as much time in prayer as I do every day...God forbid that I should read and study the word of God to the point where I now know it better than I ever did as an n-C. God forbid that me and my Catholic friends regularly spend time talking about the Bible and what it says and why it matters in our lives.

The fact is that when we Catholics "start developing a personal relationship with Christ" it is never ever accidental. You rather desperately need to drop your preconceived notions and anti-Catholic biases and actually get to know some of faithful Catholics, because what you have just posted is a great big fat load of fiction.

It depends on what one means by 'man made religion'.

Did man come up with the idea of God?

In truth, that is probably the case, but what matters is not man's conceptualization, but God's revelation to us. God revealed to Abraham, and this is the God we believe in.

Quote from: BlackSepulcher on Wed Jun 05, 2013 - 03:24:53
It depends on what one means by 'man made religion'.

Did man come up with the idea of God?

In truth, that is probably the case, but what matters is not man's conceptualization, but God's revelation to us. God revealed to Abraham, and this is the God we believe in.

You might consider changing your ID handle   

What is man made is living in our own idea of what pleases  Him. It's the tendency to put more emphasis on the tangible outward things more than the spiritual such as forms ritual, and religious idealisms. Its costume, smoking incense religious gestures and the like and believing that God is impressed with these things.