Christian Forums

Quote from: mclees8 on Sat Mar 30, 2013 - 15:29:29

Quote from: winsome on Sat Mar 30, 2013 - 07:32:38

Quote from: BondServant on Fri Mar 29, 2013 - 21:47:38

Quote from: winsome on Thu Mar 28, 2013 - 04:32:42
This has been answered and I note that you have no response to those answers.

It has not been answered.  People just told me I was wrong, so I posted the scripture.

But that's ok, if you don't want to debate.  Just ignore me and the scriptures I posted.  It's not about you, anyway.  It's about people who could be led astray by what you said.  I hope anyone following this thread will read the book of Galatians and ignore what is being said...even if they ignore what I say.  The Bible speaks for itself.

See posts #9, #18, #21

I think we answered to all those answers. Still i would like to see your real justification backed up by the apostles and all we see in the epistles. Of course I think someone said here that all we have to do is listen to the church and never read scripture.

You don't have to ever read the Bible to be saved and to say that you do is unbiblical and can not be found anywhere in scripture.

You guys wanna see a direct link between the Bible, Judaism, and my Catholic faith? No problem.

Invest in a copy of Dr, Edward Sri's awesome book A Biblical Walk Though the Mass http://www.ascensionpress.com/shop/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=651 From beginning to end it's directly tied to the Word of God.

Quote from: LightHammer on Sat Mar 30, 2013 - 15:42:47
You don't have to ever read the Bible to be saved and to say that you do is unbiblical and can not be found anywhere in scripture.

A very good point LH, since if that were so then the early church would have been up a stump since the vast majority of them couldn't read and the New Testament wasn't even penned for at least 20+ years after Our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ ascended into heaven and then the full canon of scripture was not set until the 4th century.

Quote from: Black KnightMI on Sat Apr 20, 2013 - 11:35:58
You guys wanna see a direct link between the Bible, Judaism, and my Catholic faith? No problem.

Invest in a copy of Dr, Edward Sri's awesome book A Biblical Walk Though the Mass http://www.ascensionpress.com/shop/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=651 From beginning to end it's directly tied to the Word of God.

Read the book. Seen the videos.

Excellent.

BTW - Welcome Black Knight 

Thanks Winsome! You're right. Dr. Sri's video series is so good that we went to our DRE and suggested that they make it part of RCIA, and they agreed.

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1301656.htm

As long as the scriptures are placed under the authoritative supervision of any institution or individual, so they will be just a faulty as that individual or institution. Only when individuals and institutions submit to the scriptures themselves as the final authority, is there any hope of truly submitting to God Himself through His Son Jesus Christ, who is the WORD OF GOD.

Quote from: Amo on Sat Apr 20, 2013 - 12:04:18
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1301656.htm

As long as the scriptures are placed under the authoritative supervision of any institution or individual, so they will be just a faulty as that individual or institution. Only when individuals and institutions submit to the scriptures themselves as the final authority, is there any hope of truly submitting to God Himself through His Son Jesus Christ, who is the WORD OF GOD.

Really? and precisely where does the Word of God (the Bible) specifically lay claim to such ultimate and final authority for all that Christians believe and practice?

I've read the Bible many times and in many different translations, and I know that there is no such scripture in either Testament that does so and you cannot provide such a scripture, because it's simply not there.

However, there is a New Testament scripture that does specifically tell us what is the pillar and ground of the truth.

It's found in 1st Timothy 3:15 where St. Paul tells us, "But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."

Quote from: Amo on Sat Apr 20, 2013 - 12:04:18
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1301656.htm

As long as the scriptures are placed under the authoritative supervision of any institution or individual, so they will be just a faulty as that individual or institution. Only when individuals and institutions submit to the scriptures themselves as the final authority, is there any hope of truly submitting to God Himself through His Son Jesus Christ, who is the WORD OF GOD.

If the Institution is the Catholic Church then there is no problem as Jesus himself promised he would be with it, and it would not err in its teaching.

Scripture is not and cannot be the final authority. Such an idea is unbiblical.

Added: - Got in before me BK 

Got your back brother.

QuoteReally? and precisely where does the Word of God (the Bible) specifically lay claim to such ultimate and final authority for all that Christians believe and practice?

I've read the Bible many times and in many different translations, and I know that there is no such scripture in either Testament that does so and you cannot provide such a scripture, because it's simply not there.

However, there is a New Testament scripture that does specifically tell us what is the pillar and ground of the truth.

It's found in 1st Timothy 3:15 where St. Paul tells us, "But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."

You may have read it many times, as I have, but apparently you weren't paying very close attention. Perhaps you were simply reading it looking for whatever was in it that supported what you had already chosen to believe, rather than reading it to believe what it plainly says. So now, let me share some of it with you. Since you have quoted from Timothy in support of your erroneous views, let's start with testimony from the same regarding just where the church gets it's authority.

These things teach and exhort. 3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. 1 Tim 6:2-5 (KJV)

Whoever will not submit to the words of our Lord Jesus Christ and thus godly doctrine according to the same, is prideful and knows nothing.

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Tim 3:14-17 (KJV)

It is the scriptures that thoroughly furnish the man of God for His work, and thus the church also. This is for the plain and simple reason, that the scriptures are based completely upon God's word, which is of course above all other sources or claims of authority.

20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.  Isaiah 8:20 (KJV)

Those who do not speak according to the law and the testimony, which is the scriptures of course, have no light in them.

9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9 (KJV)

Claim what one will, if they do not abide in the doctrine of Christ, that is by His words, they are not of God, the Father, or the Son.

47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak. John 12:47-50 (KJV)

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. John 14:23-24 (KJV)

If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. 12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. John 15:7-14 (KJV)

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
John 17:6-10 (KJV)

The words and teachings of Christ recorded for us in scripture are above all other authority. No church has any authority from God save they preach and teach that which Christ has given us. If or when they contradict or supersede the same, they are not of God when doing so. Any claim of authority to do so is false and antichrist.

16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. 19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.  2 Peter 1:16-21 (KJV)

The words of the Apostles are the words of those hand  picked by Christ Himself to establish His church by His authority and the power of His Holy Spirit. There words and works are recorded in scripture for the church. They are the authority of the church, the church has no authority over or above them. All churches who claim such are false and antichrist.

The bible testifies over and over that the messages it contains are the word of God. The true church claims no authority over or above that word, but only and always exalts it above and over itself, submitting itself fully to it's testimony.

Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a.................. 4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him,saying,

Deut 8:3 ............that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

Josh 8:27.........themselves, according unto the word of the LORD which he commanded Joshua.

1 Sam 3:21 ........for the LORD revealed himself to Samuel in Shiloh by the word of the LORD.

15:10 Then came the word of the LORD unto Samuel, saying,

2 Sam 7:4...... That the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying,

24:11 For when David was up in the morning, the word of the LORD came unto the prophet Gad, David's seer, saying,

IKing 12:22 But the word of God came unto Shemaiah the man of God, saying,

13:18.....and an angel spake unto me by the word of the LORD, saying,

13:20 ...that the word of the LORD came unto the prophet that brought him back:

16:1 Then the word of the LORD came to Jehu the son of Hanani against Baasha, saying,

17:2 And the word of the LORD came unto him, saying,

17:8 And the word of the LORD came unto him, saying,

18:1....that the word of the LORD came to Elijah in the third year, saying, Go, shew thyself unto Ahab;

18:33 And Elijah..... unto whom the word of the LORD came, saying, Israel shall be thy name:

19:9 ....and, behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and he said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah?

21:17 And the word of the LORD came to Elijah the Tishbite, saying,

21:28 And the word of the LORD came to Elijah the Tishbite, saying,

II Ki 14:25 ....according to the word of the LORD God of Israel,

20:16 And Isaiah said unto Hezekiah, Hear the word of the LORD.

1 Chr 17:3....that the word of God came to Nathan, saying,

22:8 But the word of the LORD came to me, saying,

2 Chr 11:2 But the word of the LORD came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,

Ezra 1:1 ....that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled,

38:4 Then came the word of the LORD to Isaiah, saying,

55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Jer 1:4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

13 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,,

2:1 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying,

7:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,

11:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,

13:3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,

8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

14:1 The word of the LORD that came to Jeremiah concerning the dearth.

16:1 The word of the LORD came also unto me, saying,

18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,

5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,

21:1 The word which came unto Jeremiah from the LORD,

24:4 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

28:12 Then the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah the prophet,

29:30 Then came the word of the LORD unto Jeremiah, saying,

32:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD

Ezek 1:3 The word of the LORD came expressly unto Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi,

3:16 ...that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

6:1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

7:1 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

11:14 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

12:1 The word of the LORD also came unto me, saying,

8 And in the morning came the word of the LORD unto me, saying,

17 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying,

21 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

26 Again the word of the LORD came to me, saying,

13:1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

14: 2 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

12 The word of the LORD came again to me, saying,

15:1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

16:1 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

17:1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

18:1 The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,

20:2 Then came the word of the LORD unto me, saying,

20:45 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

21:1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

8 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

18 The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,

22:1 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

17 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

23 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

23:1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

24:1....the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

15 Also the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

25:1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

27:1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

28:1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

20 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

30:1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

Dan 9:2 ....word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, ....

Hosea 1:1 The word of the LORD that came unto Hosea, the son of Beeri,

2 The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea,

Joel 1:1 The word of the LORD that came to Joel the son of Pethuel.

Amos 3:1 Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel,

Micah 1:1 The word of the LORD that came to Micah the Morasthite in the days of Jotham,

Zeph 1:1 The word of the LORD which came unto Zephaniah the son of Cushi,

Hag 1:1....came the word of the LORD by Haggai the prophet unto Zerubbabel

Zech 1:1....came the word of the LORD unto Zechariah, the son of Berechiah,

4:8 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

6:9 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

7:8 And the word of the LORD came unto Zechariah, saying,

8:1 Again the word of the LORD of hosts came to me, saying,

Mal 1:1 The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.

Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

[Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Luke 3:2 ....the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.

8:21....My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth:thy word is truth.

Acts 6:7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

1Thes 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

1 Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

I Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

The bible is the word of God to humanity. His testimony to humanity which is above all other authority of or on this earth. The true church exists in submission to the same. False churches claim authority above the same, and thereby fill the position of antichrist. All will be judged by the word of God, both in it's written and human form among us, for the scriptures are those which testify of Him.

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. John 5:39 (KJV)

All will be judged by the same.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked

Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

No one has authority over the word of God. All who attempt to place themselves above that authority, will suffer the consequences described above. There is no church which has authority above scripture, but only the church of antichrist himself would claim the same. Who will stand before God and claim authority above His word? All such will perish.

Quote from: Amo on Sun Apr 21, 2013 - 18:09:30

QuoteReally? and precisely where does the Word of God (the Bible) specifically lay claim to such ultimate and final authority for all that Christians believe and practice?

I've read the Bible many times and in many different translations, and I know that there is no such scripture in either Testament that does so and you cannot provide such a scripture, because it's simply not there.

However, there is a New Testament scripture that does specifically tell us what is the pillar and ground of the truth.

It's found in 1st Timothy 3:15 where St. Paul tells us, "But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."

You may have read it many times, as I have, but apparently you weren't paying very close attention. Perhaps you were simply reading it looking for whatever was in it that supported what you had already chosen to believe, rather than reading it to believe what it plainly says. So now, let me share some of it with you. Since you have quoted from Timothy in support of your erroneous views, let's start with testimony from the same regarding just where the church gets it's authority.

These things teach and exhort. 3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. 1 Tim 6:2-5 (KJV)

Whoever will not submit to the words of our Lord Jesus Christ and thus godly doctrine according to the same, is prideful and knows nothing.

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Tim 3:14-17 (KJV)

It is the scriptures that thoroughly furnish the man of God for His work, and thus the church also. This is for the plain and simple reason, that the scriptures are based completely upon God's word, which is of course above all other sources or claims of authority.

20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.  Isaiah 8:20 (KJV)

Those who do not speak according to the law and the testimony, which is the scriptures of course, have no light in them.

9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9 (KJV)

Claim what one will, if they do not abide in the doctrine of Christ, that is by His words, they are not of God, the Father, or the Son.

47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak. John 12:47-50 (KJV)

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. John 14:23-24 (KJV)

If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. 12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. John 15:7-14 (KJV)

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
John 17:6-10 (KJV)

The words and teachings of Christ recorded for us in scripture are above all other authority. No church has any authority from God save they preach and teach that which Christ has given us. If or when they contradict or supersede the same, they are not of God when doing so. Any claim of authority to do so is false and antichrist.

16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. 19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.  2 Peter 1:16-21 (KJV)

The words of the Apostles are the words of those hand  picked by Christ Himself to establish His church by His authority and the power of His Holy Spirit. There words and works are recorded in scripture for the church. They are the authority of the church, the church has no authority over or above them. All churches who claim such are false and antichrist.

The bible testifies over and over that the messages it contains are the word of God. The true church claims no authority over or above that word, but only and always exalts it above and over itself, submitting itself fully to it's testimony.

Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a.................. 4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him,saying,

Deut 8:3 ............that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

Josh 8:27.........themselves, according unto the word of the LORD which he commanded Joshua.

1 Sam 3:21 ........for the LORD revealed himself to Samuel in Shiloh by the word of the LORD.

15:10 Then came the word of the LORD unto Samuel, saying,

2 Sam 7:4...... That the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying,

24:11 For when David was up in the morning, the word of the LORD came unto the prophet Gad, David's seer, saying,

IKing 12:22 But the word of God came unto Shemaiah the man of God, saying,

13:18.....and an angel spake unto me by the word of the LORD, saying,

13:20 ...that the word of the LORD came unto the prophet that brought him back:

16:1 Then the word of the LORD came to Jehu the son of Hanani against Baasha, saying,

17:2 And the word of the LORD came unto him, saying,

17:8 And the word of the LORD came unto him, saying,

18:1....that the word of the LORD came to Elijah in the third year, saying, Go, shew thyself unto Ahab;

18:33 And Elijah..... unto whom the word of the LORD came, saying, Israel shall be thy name:

19:9 ....and, behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and he said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah?

21:17 And the word of the LORD came to Elijah the Tishbite, saying,

21:28 And the word of the LORD came to Elijah the Tishbite, saying,

II Ki 14:25 ....according to the word of the LORD God of Israel,

20:16 And Isaiah said unto Hezekiah, Hear the word of the LORD.

1 Chr 17:3....that the word of God came to Nathan, saying,

22:8 But the word of the LORD came to me, saying,

2 Chr 11:2 But the word of the LORD came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,

Ezra 1:1 ....that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled,

38:4 Then came the word of the LORD to Isaiah, saying,

55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Jer 1:4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

13 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,,

2:1 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying,

7:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,

11:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,

13:3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,

8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

14:1 The word of the LORD that came to Jeremiah concerning the dearth.

16:1 The word of the LORD came also unto me, saying,

18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,

5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,

21:1 The word which came unto Jeremiah from the LORD,

24:4 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

28:12 Then the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah the prophet,

29:30 Then came the word of the LORD unto Jeremiah, saying,

32:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD

Ezek 1:3 The word of the LORD came expressly unto Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi,

3:16 ...that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

6:1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

7:1 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

11:14 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

12:1 The word of the LORD also came unto me, saying,

8 And in the morning came the word of the LORD unto me, saying,

17 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying,

21 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

26 Again the word of the LORD came to me, saying,

13:1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

14: 2 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

12 The word of the LORD came again to me, saying,

15:1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

16:1 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

17:1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

18:1 The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,

20:2 Then came the word of the LORD unto me, saying,

20:45 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

21:1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

8 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

18 The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,

22:1 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

17 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

23 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

23:1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

24:1....the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

15 Also the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

25:1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

27:1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

28:1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

20 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

30:1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

Dan 9:2 ....word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, ....

Hosea 1:1 The word of the LORD that came unto Hosea, the son of Beeri,

2 The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea,

Joel 1:1 The word of the LORD that came to Joel the son of Pethuel.

Amos 3:1 Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel,

Micah 1:1 The word of the LORD that came to Micah the Morasthite in the days of Jotham,

Zeph 1:1 The word of the LORD which came unto Zephaniah the son of Cushi,

Hag 1:1....came the word of the LORD by Haggai the prophet unto Zerubbabel

Zech 1:1....came the word of the LORD unto Zechariah, the son of Berechiah,

4:8 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

6:9 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

7:8 And the word of the LORD came unto Zechariah, saying,

8:1 Again the word of the LORD of hosts came to me, saying,

Mal 1:1 The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.

Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

[Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Luke 3:2 ....the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.

8:21....My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth:thy word is truth.

Acts 6:7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

1Thes 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

1 Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

I Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

The bible is the word of God to humanity. His testimony to humanity which is above all other authority of or on this earth. The true church exists in submission to the same. False churches claim authority above the same, and thereby fill the position of antichrist. All will be judged by the word of God, both in it's written and human form among us, for the scriptures are those which testify of Him.

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. John 5:39 (KJV)

All will be judged by the same.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked

Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

No one has authority over the word of God. All who attempt to place themselves above that authority, will suffer the consequences described above. There is no church which has authority above scripture, but only the church of antichrist himself would claim the same. Who will stand before God and claim authority above His word? All such will perish.

Amen 

Don't ever challenge God's word as our final authority. God is not mocked.

Quote from: mclees8 on Sun Apr 21, 2013 - 19:37:19
Amen 

Don't ever challenge God's word as our final authority. God is not mocked.

I hate to point this out to you, but not one single verse that you cited lays claim to the Bible as the only and final and ultimate authority for Christian belief. Not one. You pulled all of that out of its context and now you tell me that I shouldn't challenge your doctrine? When you can offer a scripture that says that the Bible claims that authority then you can run with it, but anyone with eyes to see can see that you did not do that.

No faithful Catholic will ever assert that when God speaks we don't need to listen and obey even as He did in the OT, but not a single verse exists (even in my 73 book Catholic Bible) that says anything other than what Paul tells Timothy, that the pillar and ground of the truth is the church. That's what the New Testament plainly says Mcleese, whether anyone likes it or not. Paul wrote that under the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit, so if you don't like it or disagree you'll have to take it up with God, but don't get all mad at me for knowing the Word of God.

It will be pretty obvious to any observant reader that I'm not the one who's reading his Bible to find what he already has been taught.

You're dead right though. God is not mocked (Galatians 6:7) though that has no application to me and my opinions or posts.

Quote from: Black KnightMI on Mon Apr 22, 2013 - 01:28:38
I hate to point this out to you, but not one single verse that you cited lays claim to the Bible as the only and final and ultimate authority for Christian belief. Not one.

Wow big statement.

Its not that you don't read your Bible only that you don't read it with care.

Take this verse for instance.

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word (OT), it is because there is no light in them. (Isa 8:20)

Rather than providing you an explanation of the verse how about you have a go - define word, speak, light and law and testimony.

I would be interested in your findings.

Clarity

Now the writings of the prophets, which are the root and foundation of the New Testament, this is truth and factual as the Scripture testifies itself; without the understanding of these books truth would be unintelligible.  The OT can be expressed into 'the law and the testimony'; or 'the law, the prophets, and the psalms'; altogether they are styled THE WORD.

This, with 'the testimony for Jesus'  left on record by the apostles, makes the 'word of the Lord'  to us, which lives and abides for ever.

All writers and speakers must be unceremoniously tried by this; for, God has said, that 'if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.' 

It matters not who the sinner may be: pope, cardinal, archbishop, bishop, minister, or their admirers; or, even one of the saints of God, or an angel himself; nothing he may say or write must be received unless  in strict conformity to this Word; and of this the people must judge for themselves upon their own responsibility; and in the face of their eternal hope, or rejection from the Kingdom of God.

To this Book, then we appeal for light.

Is the testimony of Isa 8:20 accepted in this forum? Or would the RCC member desire to add to the Word of God in the hope of preserving the false authority of the church?

What sayest thou 

Keeping in mind the Book of God is peculiar in this regard.... it narrates the past, the present, and future all in one volume.  Everything mankind needs for his redemption is provided for within its pages.

Is it enough or do you desire more? 2 Tim 4:3 

Those are just great Clarity. except that if you use these as ultimate authority of the Bible, then they will reject the New Testament because it is added to the OT and according to them and many other passages of the OT, the New Testament cannot be inspired scripture.

Now. of course, i am not asserting that that is the case, but only that that is where that errant interpretation will logically lead.

It is not that held by Catholics, not even by the n-Cs that I know.

I would appreciate it if you can show me where the Bible lays claim to being the final authority for all that we believe and practice.

The fact is that the Bible cannot even tell us what books belong within it, nor where chapters and verses begin and end. These were all imposed upon it by modern men many centuries later.

Moreover. on whose authority do we know these books are inspired canon? Who decided that and when, since that information is nowhere found in the Bible, is it?

However, to get us back on topic...

It is clear that both Judaism and Catholicism have a love for the Word of God in common. It is important to note that, as my reference to Dr. Sri's excellent book shows, the Mass is very tightly tied to the Word of God and the Jewish faith.

Quote from: Clarity on Mon Apr 22, 2013 - 02:07:30
Now the writings of the prophets, which are the root and foundation of the New Testament, this is truth and factual as the Scripture testifies itself; without the understanding of these books truth would be unintelligible.  The OT can be expressed into 'the law and the testimony'; or 'the law, the prophets, and the psalms'; altogether they are styled THE WORD.

This, with 'the testimony for Jesus'  left on record by the apostles, makes the 'word of the Lord'  to us, which lives and abides for ever.

All writers and speakers must be unceremoniously tried by this; for, God has said, that 'if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.' 

It matters not who the sinner may be: pope, cardinal, archbishop, bishop, minister, or their admirers; or, even one of the saints of God, or an angel himself; nothing he may say or write must be received unless  in strict conformity to this Word; and of this the people must judge for themselves upon their own responsibility; and in the face of their eternal hope, or rejection from the Kingdom of God.

To this Book, then we appeal for light.

Is the testimony of Isa 8:20 accepted in this forum? Or would the RCC member desire to add to the Word of God in the hope of preserving the false authority of the church?

What sayest thou 

Keeping in mind the Book of God is peculiar in this regard.... it narrates the past, the present, and future all in one volume.  Everything mankind needs for his redemption is provided for within its pages.

Is it enough or do you desire more? 2 Tim 4:3 

Good post. 

Quote from: winsome on Sat Apr 20, 2013 - 12:20:56

Quote from: Amo on Sat Apr 20, 2013 - 12:04:18
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1301656.htm

As long as the scriptures are placed under the authoritative supervision of any institution or individual, so they will be just a faulty as that individual or institution. Only when individuals and institutions submit to the scriptures themselves as the final authority, is there any hope of truly submitting to God Himself through His Son Jesus Christ, who is the WORD OF GOD.

If the Institution is the Catholic Church then there is no problem as Jesus himself promised he would be with it, and it would not err in its teaching.

Scripture is not and cannot be the final authority. Such an idea is unbiblical.

Added: - Got in before me BK 

Jesus promised to be with his people, who are the church. The faithfull people carry out his work and that includes, the prophets who delivered the word in the first place. The RCC cannot claim these prophets to be their prophets as that is abuse of power. Mature Christians recognize that these early Christians belonged to God and God alone. They share beliefs that is more akin to the great protestant servants of the most high.

Quote from: FireSword on Mon Apr 22, 2013 - 18:27:57
Jesus promised to be with his people, who are the church. The faithfull people carry out his work and that includes, the prophets who delivered the word in the first place. The RCC cannot claim these prophets to be their prophets as that is abuse of power. Mature Christians recognize that these early Christians belonged to God and God alone. They share beliefs that is more akin to the great protestant servants of the most high.

This is essentially nonsense. I'm sorry, but it is.

All faithful Catholics belong to God alone, and the serious problem for you and all modern n-Cs is that you have never bothered to read what the earliest believers wrote. These are verifiable historical documents that are readily available to you online. Simply Google "early church fathers" and see for yourself. These writings date from the death of St. John the Evangelist at the end of the 1st century down through the rest of history and document what these Christians professed and practiced and in fact. died for. Many were close friends and disciples of the apostles, and some where actually written right alongside the inspired New Testament. (See for instance the Didache)

Christianity began with Our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ some 2,000 years ago and has a long and rich history. To ignore the wealth of teaching and inspiration that that history provides in favor of doctrines and interpretations modern within the last 500 years is odd at best, and dangerous to the truth of one's beliefs at worst. You believe things that men 500 years ago set forth as doctrines and yet most often ignore what Christians have written and said in the 1500 years prior to that.

It is, of course, your own choice to do that, but if you do not have the courage of your convictions to look into this, honestly seeking truth, then...

Quote from: Black KnightMI on Mon Apr 22, 2013 - 23:04:01

Quote from: FireSword on Mon Apr 22, 2013 - 18:27:57
Jesus promised to be with his people, who are the church. The faithfull people carry out his work and that includes, the prophets who delivered the word in the first place. The RCC cannot claim these prophets to be their prophets as that is abuse of power. Mature Christians recognize that these early Christians belonged to God and God alone. They share beliefs that is more akin to the great protestant servants of the most high.

This is essentially nonsense. I'm sorry, but it is.

All faithful Catholics belong to God alone, and the serious problem for you and all modern n-Cs is that you have never bothered to read what the earliest believers wrote. These are verifiable historical documents that are readily available to you online. Simply Google "early church fathers" and see for yourself. These writings date from the death of St. John the Evangelist at the end of the 1st century down through the rest of history and document what these Christians professed and practiced and in fact. died for. Many were close friends and disciples of the apostles, and some where actually written right alongside the inspired New Testament. (See for instance the Didache)

Christianity began with Our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ some 2,000 years ago and has a long and rich history. To ignore the wealth of teaching and inspiration that that history provides in favor of doctrines and interpretations modern within the last 500 years is odd at best, and dangerous to the truth of one's beliefs at worst. You believe things that men 500 years ago set forth as doctrines and yet most often ignore what Christians have written and said in the 1500 years prior to that.

It is, of course, your own choice to do that, but if you do not have the courage of your convictions to look into this, honestly seeking truth, then...

I have read much of what your early "Christians" wrote. Their writings do not compare to that of the Apostles themselves, or the words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in any way shape or form. Nor are we the ones neglecting the writings of the earliest church fathers, which are Christ and the Apostles. You are the one relying on the writings of those coming after the originals, not us. How strange, you question the bible and New Testament, but lean the more heavily on that written afterwards supposedly expounding upon the original. As already pointed out, you deny the Word of God, in favor of later writers, or Popes, or the supposed church even if it contradicts the testimony of scripture.

Are you telling us that when the bible prophets, writers, Apostles, and Christ Himself said they were given the Word of God, which they in turn gave to us, that they were lying? Show us where your early writings claim to be the very Word of God. Is the bible the Word of God or not? Is the Pope or your church the Word of God? Are you saying that your church and the Pope are the Word of God, above and over the bible or not? Which is it, is the bible the Word of God, or is the Pope and your church the Word of God? While you consider this, do not fail to ponder these words of Christ.

30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. 31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. 33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. 34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. 36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. Matt 12:30-37 (KJV)

Is the bible Holy Spirit inspired as the scriptures testify or not? If so, then how do you say there is an authority above it? If not then your entire religion is built upon straw. Those who will deny scripture in favor of the words of man will be guilty of "blasphemy against the Holy Ghost" who Himself is God, and inspired all scripture. Thus rejecting the testimony of the Word of God is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit of God. Who in their right mind wants to be guilty of the following?

Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. Mark 7:6-9 (KJV)

If a churches traditions contradict the Word of God, they fulfill the above testimony regarding many of the Jews in Christ's day.

Amo, a few points

1. To say that what the early Christians wrote does not compare with that of the apostles is a meaningless statement. We can always compare two things. At the very minimum the writings of the early fathers are historical records.

Moreover many of them were very seriously being considered for inclusion in the canon of NT scripture well into the third century, for example the Didache, the Epistle of Barnabus the Shepherd of Hermas, and others. And some of what was incorporated into the canon was under dispute until into the fourth century, for example Hebrews, Revelation,  2Peter and others.

2. The Word of God with a capital "W" is Jesus. Scriptures are the word(s) of God. The Bible is not actually Jesus. Scripture was written by men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

3. You seem not to understand where authority lies. It lies with people not a book, even one inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." (Mt 22:18). Note – all authority, nothing left over for anything else.

When and where did Jesus pass even some of that authority to the Bible, especially to the books that hadn't even been written then when Jesus was on the earth?

However Jesus did Jesus pass some of that authority to the apostles:

"I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." (Mt 16:19)

"Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven".(Mt 18:18)

"When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 'If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.'" (Jn 20:22-23)

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you.'"(Mt 28:19-20) - authority to teach and baptise.

"Do this in memory of me" (Lk 22;10) Instituting the Eucharist.

We can see the apostles exercising this authority as in "For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to impose on you no further burden than these essentials:...." (Acts 15:28)

The letters from Paul to Timothy and Titus record Paul appointing them to set up or oversee churches and giving them the authority to teach, just as the apostles were given authority by Jesus.

"Hold to the standard of sound teaching that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. Guard the good treasure entrusted to you, with the help of the Holy Spirit living in us." (2 Tim 1:13-14)

Paul instructs Timothy & Titus to pass on authority:
And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well. (2Tim 2:2)
"I left you behind in Crete for this reason, so that you should put in order what remained to be done, and should appoint elders in every town, as I directed you: .......... (Ti 1:5)

And to be careful who they choose:

This saying is trustworthy: whoever aspires to the office of bishop desires a noble task. Therefore, a bishop must be irreproachable, married only once, temperate, self-controlled, decent, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not aggressive, but gentle, not contentious, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, keeping his children under control with perfect dignity.. (1Tim 3:1-4)

For a bishop, as God's steward, must be blameless; ........... He must have a firm grasp of the word that is trustworthy in accordance with the teaching, so that he may be able both to preach with sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict it." (Tit1:7,9)

We see authority passed from the apostles to the deacons in Acts 2 "They had these men stand before the apostles, who prayed and laid their hands on them." Philip the deacon went off to Samaria and taught and baptised, just as the apostles had been told to do, and thereby given the authority to do.

The passing on of authority is done by the laying on of hands, for example Acts 6:6, 1Tim 4:14 2Tim 5:22.

This is how authority was passed on from the apostles to bishops & priests down the ages.

The record of the passing on of authority is not just in scripture, but in the records of the early church, for example:-

Pope Clement I (writing in about 80AD)
"Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry" (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]).


Jesus gave his authority to the apostles and told them to teach.
He also gave us a principle about his authority "Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me." (Lk 10:16).
Jesus is the final authority and he gave that to the leaders of his Church. To listen to them is to listen to Jesus. To reject them is to reject Jesus.

4. No Catholic doctrine contradicts scripture and no scripture contradicts Catholic doctrine. That is because they come from the same source - the deposit of faith that Jesus entruested to the apostles, and with Jesus' guarantee that the Holy Spirit would lead them into all truth. (Jn 16:13). Jesus has not abandoned his Church and continues the lead the Church into all truth.

QuoteAmo, a few points

1. To say that what the early Christians wrote does not compare with that of the apostles is a meaningless statement. We can always compare two things. At the very minimum the writings of the early fathers are historical records.

Is it meaningless that the Apostles were hand picked by the Son of God to continue building upon the foundation He laid Himself, being the chief corner stone of the household of God? Were the early fathers you speak of attended with the miraculous power which the Apostles displayed to the glory of God, and by His power?

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. Eph 2:18-22 (KJV)

Apart from Christ Himself being the chief corner stone, the apostles and prophets themselves are part of the foundation of the church. Their testimony is not to be contradicted, being themselves part of the foundation which Christ laid.

QuoteMoreover many of them were very seriously being considered for inclusion in the canon of NT scripture well into the third century, for example the Didache, the Epistle of Barnabus the Shepherd of Hermas, and others. And some of what was incorporated into the canon was under dispute until into the fourth century, for example Hebrews, Revelation,  2Peter and others.

Considered by who? The New Testament contains the writings of the Apostles alone, and this is for a reason. Or do you suppose God messed up when He personally saw to the formation of the New Testament?

Quote2. The Word of God with a capital "W" is Jesus. Scriptures are the word(s) of God. The Bible is not actually Jesus. Scripture was written by men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Yes, the Holy Spirit who is God, who is one with Jesus, who is the Word of God. What was given by the Holy Spirit of God, was given by God the Father, and God the Son also, for they are one. Your point takes nothing away from the fact that the scriptures are the word of God to humanity, and above all earthly authority. Whoever claims authority above God's word is verily antichrist.

14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; John 17:14-20 (KJV)

Quote3. You seem not to understand where authority lies. It lies with people not a book, even one inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." (Mt 22:18). Note – all authority, nothing left over for anything else.

Jesus was the Son of God. He gave authority to His Apostles because they believed His words, which were of course the word of God. It was their faith in the word of God that gave them the authority of the same, not anything of themselves. The same holds true for all others. Either the authority of God's word backs them up, or it does not. The bible is that standard which determines the same. You are wrong, it is not the person, it is the word of God, and their faith in it, or not.

22 And the children of Israel, even the whole congregation, journeyed from Kadesh, and came unto mount Hor. 23 And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron in mount Hor, by the coast of the land of Edom, saying, 24 Aaron shall be gathered unto his people: for he shall not enter into the land which I have given unto the children of Israel, because ye rebelled against my word at the water of Meribah. Num 20:22-24 (KJV)

Aaron was appointed High Priest by God Himself, and certainly had authority as such. However, when he rebelled against God's word he lost that authority and his life before being able to enter the promised land as the High Priest of Israel.

48 And the Lord spake unto Moses that selfsame day, saying, 49 Get thee up into this mountain Abarim, unto mount Nebo, which is in the land of Moab, that is over against Jericho; and behold the land of Canaan, which I give unto the children of Israel for a possession: 50 And die in the mount whither thou goest up, and be gathered unto thy people; as Aaron thy brother died in mount Hor, and was gathered unto his people: 51 Because ye trespassed against me among the children of Israel at the waters of Meribah-Kadesh, in the wilderness of Zin; because ye sanctified me not in the midst of the children of Israel. 52 Yet thou shalt see the land before thee; but thou shalt not go thither unto the land which I give the children of Israel. Deut 32:48-52 (KJV)

7 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 8 Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink. 9 And Moses took the rod from before the Lord, as he commanded him. 10 And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said unto them, Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock? 11 And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also. 12 And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them. Num 20:7-12 (KJV)

Moses was highly exalted by God on many an occasion. Apart from Christ Himself, probably no man on earth performed so many and such great miracles by the power of the Lord. He was selected by God to lead His people out of Egyptian slavery and into the promised land. No man or power of earth could stand before him while he faithfully fulfilled the word of God. Yet, when he disobeyed God, and presumed to be the one giving Israel water with, or in the place of God, he lost the privilege of leading them into the promised land, and died right on it's borders.

20 And it came to pass, as they sat at the table, that the word of the Lord came unto the prophet that brought him back: 21 And he cried unto the man of God that came from Judah, saying, Thus saith the Lord, Forasmuch as thou hast disobeyed the mouth of the Lord, and hast not kept the commandment which the Lord thy God commanded thee, 22 But camest back, and hast eaten bread and drunk water in the place, of the which the Lord did say to thee, Eat no bread, and drink no water; thy carcase shall not come unto the sepulchre of thy fathers. 1 Kings 13:20-22 (KJV)

The above prophet of God, did not do as the Lord commanded and lost his authority as a prophet and died shortly thereafter.

13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; 14 And enquired not of the Lord: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse. 1 Chron 10:13-14 (KJV)

Saul was appointed king of Israel by God Himself, and even prophesied by the Spirit of God. When he acted against the word of the Lord though, the kingdom was taken from him, and he and his sons died in battle. It is not the person, it is the word of God! God's chosen have authority because of their faith in His word, without which they will lose the same.

19 Then came to him his mother and his brethren, and could not come at him for the press. 20 And it was told him by certain which said, Thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to see thee. 21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it. Luke 8:19-21 (KJV)

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:24 (KJV)

28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. 29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. 30 As he spake these words, many believed on him. 31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. John 8:28-32 (KJV)

47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak. John 12:47-50 (KJV)

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. 25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. John 14:23-26 (KJV)

It is the word of God, the word of God, the word of God! Not the person. Read the book of Hebrews chapter 11 and see what God's people accomplished by faith in God's word. God's word I say, not in themselves, or some position given to them by God, but by God's word to them.

QuoteWhen and where did Jesus pass even some of that authority to the Bible, especially to the books that hadn't even been written then when Jesus was on the earth?

However Jesus did Jesus pass some of that authority to the apostles:

"I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." (Mt 16:19)

"Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven".(Mt 18:18)

"When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 'If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.'" (Jn 20:22-23)

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you.'"(Mt 28:19-20) - authority to teach and baptise.

"Do this in memory of me" (Lk 22;10) Instituting the Eucharist.

We can see the apostles exercising this authority as in "For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to impose on you no further burden than these essentials:...." (Acts 15:28)

Jesus passed authority on to the Apostles because they believed the word of God He spoke to them. Thus the authority of their own words as recorded as eye witnesses and trustees of the words of Christ spoken to them. This included of course all the power of God that went along with their commission from God to preach the gospel of Christ.

31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. John 8:31-32 (KJV)

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. John 17:6-23 (KJV)

It is the word of God, the word of God, the word of God! Not the person, or position given. The authority of the true church comes from the word of God, or not at all.

QuoteThe letters from Paul to Timothy and Titus record Paul appointing them to set up or oversee churches and giving them the authority to teach, just as the apostles were given authority by Jesus.

"Hold to the standard of sound teaching that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. Guard the good treasure entrusted to you, with the help of the Holy Spirit living in us." (2 Tim 1:13-14)

Paul instructs Timothy & Titus to pass on authority:
And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well. (2Tim 2:2)
"I left you behind in Crete for this reason, so that you should put in order what remained to be done, and should appoint elders in every town, as I directed you: .......... (Ti 1:5)

And to be careful who they choose:

This saying is trustworthy: whoever aspires to the office of bishop desires a noble task. Therefore, a bishop must be irreproachable, married only once, temperate, self-controlled, decent, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not aggressive, but gentle, not contentious, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, keeping his children under control with perfect dignity.. (1Tim 3:1-4)

For a bishop, as God's steward, must be blameless; ........... He must have a firm grasp of the word that is trustworthy in accordance with the teaching, so that he may be able both to preach with sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict it." (Tit1:7,9)

We see authority passed from the apostles to the deacons in Acts 2 "They had these men stand before the apostles, who prayed and laid their hands on them." Philip the deacon went off to Samaria and taught and baptised, just as the apostles had been told to do, and thereby given the authority to do.

The passing on of authority is done by the laying on of hands, for example Acts 6:6, 1Tim 4:14 2Tim 5:22.

All of the authority passed on was only to those who also subjected themselves to the authority of the word of God. No person can pass on any power from God but to one who also subjects themselves to the word of God. There is no magic or hocus pocus apart from this. There is no authority apart from, or above, or beyond God's authority which is based upon His word alone which is living and active and able to discern and judge all.

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. Heb 4:12-13 (KJV)

QuoteThis is how authority was passed on from the apostles to bishops & priests down the ages.

The record of the passing on of authority is not just in scripture, but in the records of the early church, for example:-

Pope Clement I (writing in about 80AD)
"Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry" (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]).

Clement was not a Pope. There was no Pope during his day. Nor has the authority of the leaders of the Roman Catholic church been passed on in the manner described above over the centuries. Do you really want to get into an examination of historical fact regarding the passing on of papal authority over the centuries? I would not recommend it, it would not go well for you or your cause on this board. It would wholly disprove everything you just built up in defense of the usurped authority claimed by the Roman Catholic church. Nevertheless, we can go there if you want.

QuoteJesus gave his authority to the apostles and told them to teach.
He also gave us a principle about his authority "Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me." (Lk 10:16).
Jesus is the final authority and he gave that to the leaders of his Church. To listen to them is to listen to Jesus. To reject them is to reject Jesus.

The above is correct concerning Jesus and the Apostles. This in no way shape or form means though, that all are to blindly follow whoever claims to have received authority from Jesus and the Apostles. To the contrary, all must know what Jesus and the Apostles said, in order to properly determine who has truly received authority in submission to their words. It is the word of God that is the real authority, not just anyone who claims to have received authority from Christ or the Apostles. If they have, let their teachings be examined and compared to the same for authenticity. If they refuse or believe they are above the same, then they are a false system and antichrist.

Quote4. No Catholic doctrine contradicts scripture and no scripture contradicts Catholic doctrine. That is because they come from the same source - the deposit of faith that Jesus entruested to the apostles, and with Jesus' guarantee that the Holy Spirit would lead them into all truth. (Jn 16:13). Jesus has not abandoned his Church and continues the lead the Church into all truth.

Sorry, say and believe whatever you will, this will never give you any authority over anyone. Back it up by the word of God, and you will have the authority you are speaking of, but not because of anything in you, only because of the power and authority of God's word. You will never convince those who have and study the word of God for themselves that you and yours are God's authority on earth.

Since you brought up Clement, whom you falsely claim to be a very early Pope, let's examine some of his words, in relation to that of a much later Pope. Emphasis mine.


ST. CLEMENT. EPISTLE TO THE CORINTHIANS

THE FIRST EPISTLE OF CLEMENT TO THE CORINTHIANS

CHAPTER 13
AN EXHORTATION TO HUMILITY
Let us therefore, brethren, be of humble mind, laying aside all haughtiness,
and pride, and foolishness, and angry feelings; and let us act according to
that which is written (for the Holy Spirit saith, "Let not the wise man
glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, neither
let the rich man glory in his riches; but let him that glorieth glory in the
Lord, in diligently seeking Him, and doing judgment and righteousness"),
being especially mindful of the words of the Lord Jesus which He spake,
teaching us meekness and long-suffering. For thus He spoke: "Be ye
merciful, that ye may obtain mercy; forgive, that it may be forgiven to
you; as ye do, so shall it be done unto you; as ye judge, so shall ye be
judged; as ye are kind, so shall kindness be shown to you; with what
measure ye mete, with the same it shall be measured to you." By this
precept and by these rules let us stablish ourselves, that we walk with all
humility in obedience to His holy words. For the holy word saith, "On
whom shall I look, but on him that is meek and peaceable, and that
trembleth at My words?"

CHAPTER 16
CHRIST AS AN EXAMPLE OF HUMILITY
For Christ is of those who are humble-minded, and not of those who exalt
themselves over His flock.[/b] Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Scepter of the
majesty of God, did not come in the pomp of pride or arrogance, although
He might have done so, but in a lowly condition, as the Holy Spirit had
declared regarding Him. For He says, "Lord, who hath believed our report,
and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? We have declared [our
message] in His presence: He is, as it were, a child, and like a root in
thirsty ground; He has no form nor glory, yea, we saw Him, and He had no
form nor comeliness; but His form was without eminence, yea, deficient in
comparison with the [ordinary] form of men. He is a man exposed to
stripes and suffering, and acquainted with the endurance of grief: for His
countenance was turned away; He was despised, and not esteemed. He
bears our iniquities, and is in sorrow for our sakes; yet we supposed that
[on His own account] He was exposed to labor, and stripes, and affliction.
But He was wounded for our transgressions, and bruised for our iniquities.
The chastisement of our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we were
healed. All we, like sheep, have gone astray; [every] man has wandered in
his own way; and the Lord has delivered Him up for our sins, while He in
the midst of His sufferings openeth not His mouth. He was brought as a
sheep to the slaughter, and as a lamb before her shearer is dumb, so He
openeth not His mouth. In His humiliation His judgment was taken away;
who shall declare His generation? for His life is taken from the earth. For
the transgressions of my people was He brought down to death. And I will
give the wicked for His sepulcher, and the rich for His death, because He
did no iniquity, neither was guile found in His mouth. And the Lord is
pleased to purify Him by stripes. If ye make an offering for sin, your soul
shall see a long-lived seed. And the Lord is pleased to relieve Him of the
affliction of His soul, to show Him light, and to form Him with
understanding, to justify the Just One who ministereth well to many; and
He Himself shall carry their sins. On this account He shall inherit many,
and shall divide the spoil of the strong; because His soul was delivered to
death, and He was reckoned among the transgressors, and He bare the sins
of many, and for their sins was He delivered." And again He saith, "I am a
worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people. All that
see Me have derided Me; they have spoken with their lips; they have
wagged their head, [saying] He hoped in God, let Him deliver Him, let Him
save Him, since He delighteth in Him." Ye see, beloved, what is the
example which has been given us; for if the Lord thus humbled Himself,
what shall we do who have through Him come under the yoke of His
grace?

CHAPTER 17
THE SAINTS AS EXAMPLES OF HUMILITY
Let us be imitators also of those who in goat-skins and sheep-skins went
about proclaiming the coming of Christ; I mean Elijah, Elisha, and Ezekiel
among the prophets, with those others to whom a like testimony is borne
[in Scripture]. Abraham was specially honored, and was called the friend
of God; yet he, earnestly regarding the glory of God, humbly declared, "I
am but dust and ashes." Moreover, it is thus written of Job, "Job was a
righteous man, and blameless, truthful, God-fearing, and one that kept
himself from all evil." But bringing an accusation against himself, he said, "
No man is free from defilement, even if his life be but of one day." Moses
was called faithful in all God's house; and through his instrumentality,
God punished Egypt with plagues and tortures. Yet he, though thus
greatly honored, did not adopt lofty language, but said, when the divine
oracle came to him out of the bush, "Who am I, that Thou sendest me? I
am a man of a feeble voice and a slow tongue." And again he said, "I am
but as the smoke of a pot."

CHAPTER 38
LET THE MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH SUBMIT THEMSELVES,
AND NO ONE EXALT HIMSELF ABOVE ANOTHER
Let our whole body, then, be preserved in Christ Jesus; and let every one
be subject to his neighbor, according to the special gift bestowed upon him.
Let the strong not despise the weak, and let the weak show respect unto
the strong. Let the rich man provide for the wants of the poor; and let the
poor man bless God, because He hath given him one by whom his need
may be supplied. Let the wise man display his wisdom, not by [mere]
words, but through good deeds. Let the humble not bear testimony to
himself, but leave witness to be borne to him by another. Let him that is
pure in the flesh not grow proud of it, and boast, knowing that it was
another who bestowed on him the gift of continence. Let us consider, then,
brethren, of what matter we were made, — who and what manner of
beings we came into the world, as it were out of a sepulcher, and from
utter darkness. He who made us and fashioned us, having prepared His
bountiful gifts for us before we were born, introduced us into His world.
Since, therefore, we receive all these things from Him, we ought for
everything to give Him thanks; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Good advice from Clement, now let us examine the words of Pope Boniface VIII. Emphasis mine.


THE BULL UNAM SANCTAM , 1302
The Bull 'Unam Sanctam', in which Pope Boniface VIII asserted his rights against King Phillip the Fair of France, is a landmark in the history of the doctrine of Papal Primacy.


The following English translation of 'Unam' is taken from a doctoral dissertation written in the Dept. of Philosophy at the Catholic University of America, and published by CUA Press in 1927.

UNAM SANCTAM (Promulgated November 18, 1302)
Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins, as the Spouse in the Canticles [Sgs 6:8] proclaims: 'One is my dove, my perfect one. She is the only one, the chosen of her who bore her,' and she represents one sole mystical body whose Head is Christ and the head of Christ is God [1 Cor 11:3]. In her then is one Lord, one faith, one baptism [Eph 4:5]. There had been at the time of the deluge only one ark of Noah, prefiguring the one Church, which ark, having been finished to a single cubit, had only one pilot and guide, i.e., Noah, and we read that, outside of this ark, all that subsisted on the earth was destroyed.

We venerate this Church as one, the Lord having said by the mouth of the prophet: 'Deliver, O God, my soul from the sword and my only one from the hand of the dog.' [Ps 21:20] He has prayed for his soul, that is for himself, heart and body; and this body, that is to say, the Church, He has called one because of the unity of the Spouse, of the faith, of the sacraments, and of the charity of the Church. This is the tunic of the Lord, the seamless tunic, which was not rent but which was cast by lot [Jn 19:23-24]. Therefore, of the one and only Church there is one body and one head, not two heads like a monster; that is, Christ and the Vicar of Christ, Peter and the successor of Peter, since the Lord speaking to Peter Himself said: 'Feed my sheep' [Jn 21:17], meaning, my sheep in general, not these, nor those in particular, whence we understand that He entrusted all to him [Peter]. Therefore, if the Greeks or others should say that they are not confided to Peter and to his successors, they must confess not being the sheep of Christ, since Our Lord says in John 'there is one sheepfold and one shepherd.' We are informed by the texts of the gospels that in this Church and in its power are two swords; namely, the spiritual and the temporal. For when the Apostles say: 'Behold, here are two swords' [Lk 22:38] that is to say, in the Church, since the Apostles were speaking, the Lord did not reply that there were too many, but sufficient. Certainly the one who denies that the temporal sword is in the power of Peter has not listened well to the word of the Lord commanding: 'Put up thy sword into thy scabbard' [Mt 26:52]. Both, therefore, are in the power of the Church, that is to say, the spiritual and the material sword, but the former is to be administered _for_ the Church but the latter by the Church; the former in the hands of the priest; the latter by the hands of kings and soldiers, but at the will and sufferance of the priest.

However, one sword ought to be subordinated to the other and temporal authority, subjected to spiritual power. For since the Apostle said: 'There is no power except from God and the things that are, are ordained of God' [Rom 13:1-2], but they would not be ordained if one sword were not subordinated to the other and if the inferior one, as it were, were not led upwards by the other.

For, according to the Blessed Dionysius, it is a law of the divinity that the lowest things reach the highest place by intermediaries. Then, according to the order of the universe, all things are not led back to order equally and immediately, but the lowest by the intermediary, and the inferior by the superior. Hence we must recognize the more clearly that spiritual power surpasses in dignity and in nobility any temporal power whatever, as spiritual things surpass the temporal. This we see very clearly also by the payment, benediction, and consecration of the tithes, but the acceptance of power itself and by the government even of things. For with truth as our witness, it belongs to spiritual power to establish the terrestrial power and to pass judgement if it has not been good. Thus is accomplished the prophecy of Jeremias concerning the Church and the ecclesiastical power: 'Behold to-day I have placed you over nations, and over kingdoms' and the rest. Therefore, if the terrestrial power err, it will be judged by the spiritual power; but if a minor spiritual power err, it will be judged by a superior spiritual power; but if the highest power of all err, it can be judged only by God, and not by man, according to the testimony of the Apostle: 'The spiritual man judgeth of all things and he himself is judged by no man' [1 Cor 2:15]. This authority, however, (though it has been given to man and is exercised by man), is not human but rather divine, granted to Peter by a divine word and reaffirmed to him (Peter) and his successors by the One Whom Peter confessed, the Lord saying to Peter himself, 'Whatsoever you shall bind on earth, shall be bound also in Heaven' etc., [Mt 16:19]. Therefore whoever resists this power thus ordained by God, resists the ordinance of God [Rom 13:2], unless he invent like Manicheus two beginnings, which is false and judged by us heretical, since according to the testimony of Moses, it is not in the beginnings but in the beginning that God created heaven and earth [Gen 1:1]. Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

Ah, such humility. Do you deny the above Winsome? Or are you in agreement?

Quote from: Amo on Thu Apr 25, 2013 - 22:06:11

QuoteAmo, a few points

1. To say that what the early Christians wrote does not compare with that of the apostles is a meaningless statement. We can always compare two things. At the very minimum the writings of the early fathers are historical records.

Is it meaningless that the Apostles were hand picked by the Son of God to continue building upon the foundation He laid Himself, being the chief corner stone of the household of God? Were the early fathers you speak of attended with the miraculous power which the Apostles displayed to the glory of God, and by His power?

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. Eph 2:18-22 (KJV)

Apart from Christ Himself being the chief corner stone, the apostles and prophets themselves are part of the foundation of the church. Their testimony is not to be contradicted, being themselves part of the foundation which Christ laid.

None of that is relevant to the point I made.

Quote from: Amo on Thu Apr 25, 2013 - 22:06:11

QuoteMoreover many of them were very seriously being considered for inclusion in the canon of NT scripture well into the third century, for example the Didache, the Epistle of Barnabus the Shepherd of Hermas, and others. And some of what was incorporated into the canon was under dispute until into the fourth century, for example Hebrews, Revelation,  2Peter and others.

Considered by who? The New Testament contains the writings of the Apostles alone, and this is for a reason. Or do you suppose God messed up when He personally saw to the formation of the New Testament?

Actually it isn't .

We don't know who wrote Hebrews.

Mark was not an Apostles, nor was Luke.

Neither are your comments relevant to what I said.

Quote from: Amo on Thu Apr 25, 2013 - 22:06:11

Quote2. The Word of God with a capital "W" is Jesus. Scriptures are the word(s) of God. The Bible is not actually Jesus. Scripture was written by men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Yes, the Holy Spirit who is God, who is one with Jesus, who is the Word of God. What was given by the Holy Spirit of God, was given by God the Father, and God the Son also, for they are one. Your point takes nothing away from the fact that the scriptures are the word of God to humanity, and above all earthly authority. Whoever claims authority above God's word is verily antichrist.

14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; John 17:14-20 (KJV)

Again you do not reply to what I said. Let me make this point clear.

Many protestants confusing three different meanings of "the word of God" or "God's word"

A.   Jesus is the Word of God (with a capital "W"). Sometimes Protestants talk about the Bible as the Word of God The Bible is not Jesus. Jesus is not the Bible
Scripture does not say "In the beginning was the Bible and the Bible was with God, and the Bible was God."

B. Scripture was written by men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. That is why it is described as God-breathed, the Holy Spirit being breathed (spirated) by God, his Rhua. There are therefore two authors to scripture, men and the Holy Spirit. In that sense of authorship is scripture the word of God. However this should not be confused with the third meaning of the word of God - the actual words that God spoke.

C. The third meaning of the word of God is the actual words that God spoke, either directly ("let there be light") or indirectly though men (as when a prophet says "It is the Lord who speaks").
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets; (Heb 1:1).

Not all of scripture is the actual words of God. Paul makes this quite clear:
I give this instruction (not I, but the Lord)..... (1Cor 7:10)
To the rest I say (not the Lord).... (1Cor 7:12)

You need to separate out these three meaning clearly and not confuse them

 

Quote from: Amo on Thu Apr 25, 2013 - 22:06:11

Quote3. You seem not to understand where authority lies. It lies with people not a book, even one inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." (Mt 22:18). Note – all authority, nothing left over for anything else.

Jesus was the Son of God. He gave authority to His Apostles because they believed His words, which were of course the word of God. It was their faith in the word of God that gave them the authority of the same, not anything of themselves. The same holds true for all others. Either the authority of God's word backs them up, or it does not. The bible is that standard which determines the same. You are wrong, it is not the person, it is the word of God, and their faith in it, or not.

That is not how authority works.

Authority lies with persons. They are given it by a person who has authority to speak and act in their name, under their authority.

Quote from: Amo on Thu Apr 25, 2013 - 22:06:11

22 And the children of Israel, even the whole congregation, journeyed from Kadesh, and came unto mount Hor. 23 And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron in mount Hor, by the coast of the land of Edom, saying, 24 Aaron shall be gathered unto his people: for he shall not enter into the land which I have given unto the children of Israel, because ye rebelled against my word at the water of Meribah. Num 20:22-24 (KJV)

Aaron was appointed High Priest by God Himself, and certainly had authority as such. However, when he rebelled against God's word he lost that authority and his life before being able to enter the promised land as the High Priest of Israel.

Exactly. You make my point. Aaron was given authority by God. The authority was then Aaron's not some books.

And yes, the one who gives authority can take it away.

Quote from: Amo on Thu Apr 25, 2013 - 22:06:11

48 And the Lord spake unto Moses that selfsame day, saying, 49 Get thee up into this mountain Abarim, unto mount Nebo, which is in the land of Moab, that is over against Jericho; and behold the land of Canaan, which I give unto the children of Israel for a possession: 50 And die in the mount whither thou goest up, and be gathered unto thy people; as Aaron thy brother died in mount Hor, and was gathered unto his people: 51 Because ye trespassed against me among the children of Israel at the waters of Meribah-Kadesh, in the wilderness of Zin; because ye sanctified me not in the midst of the children of Israel. 52 Yet thou shalt see the land before thee; but thou shalt not go thither unto the land which I give the children of Israel. Deut 32:48-52 (KJV)

7 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 8 Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink. 9 And Moses took the rod from before the Lord, as he commanded him. 10 And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said unto them, Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock? 11 And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also. 12 And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them. Num 20:7-12 (KJV)

Moses was highly exalted by God on many an occasion. Apart from Christ Himself, probably no man on earth performed so many and such great miracles by the power of the Lord. He was selected by God to lead His people out of Egyptian slavery and into the promised land. No man or power of earth could stand before him while he faithfully fulfilled the word of God. Yet, when he disobeyed God, and presumed to be the one giving Israel water with, or in the place of God, he lost the privilege of leading them into the promised land, and died right on it's borders.

20 And it came to pass, as they sat at the table, that the word of the Lord came unto the prophet that brought him back: 21 And he cried unto the man of God that came from Judah, saying, Thus saith the Lord, Forasmuch as thou hast disobeyed the mouth of the Lord, and hast not kept the commandment which the Lord thy God commanded thee, 22 But camest back, and hast eaten bread and drunk water in the place, of the which the Lord did say to thee, Eat no bread, and drink no water; thy carcase shall not come unto the sepulchre of thy fathers. 1 Kings 13:20-22 (KJV)

The above prophet of God, did not do as the Lord commanded and lost his authority as a prophet and died shortly thereafter.

Exactly – Moses was given authority by God, not a book

Quote from: Amo on Thu Apr 25, 2013 - 22:06:11

13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; 14 And enquired not of the Lord: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse. 1 Chron 10:13-14 (KJV)

Saul was appointed king of Israel by God Himself, and even prophesied by the Spirit of God. When he acted against the word of the Lord though, the kingdom was taken from him, and he and his sons died in battle. It is not the person, it is the word of God! God's chosen have authority because of their faith in His word, without which they will lose the same.

19 Then came to him his mother and his brethren, and could not come at him for the press. 20 And it was told him by certain which said, Thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to see thee. 21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it. Luke 8:19-21 (KJV)

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:24 (KJV)

28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. 29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. 30 As he spake these words, many believed on him. 31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. John 8:28-32 (KJV)

47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak. John 12:47-50 (KJV)

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. 25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. John 14:23-26 (KJV)

It is the word of God, the word of God, the word of God! Not the person. Read the book of Hebrews chapter 11 and see what God's people accomplished by faith in God's word. God's word I say, not in themselves, or some position given to them by God, but by God's word to them.

You keep making the same point. God gives authority and God takes it away. But authority lies with people not a book.

 

Quote from: Amo on Thu Apr 25, 2013 - 22:06:11

QuoteWhen and where did Jesus pass even some of that authority to the Bible, especially to the books that hadn't even been written then when Jesus was on the earth?

However Jesus did Jesus pass some of that authority to the apostles:

"I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." (Mt 16:19)

"Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven".(Mt 18:18)

"When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 'If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.'" (Jn 20:22-23)

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you.'"(Mt 28:19-20) - authority to teach and baptise.

"Do this in memory of me" (Lk 22;10) Instituting the Eucharist.

We can see the apostles exercising this authority as in "For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to impose on you no further burden than these essentials:...." (Acts 15:28)

Jesus passed authority on to the Apostles because they believed the word of God He spoke to them. Thus the authority of their own words as recorded as eye witnesses and trustees of the words of Christ spoken to them. This included of course all the power of God that went along with their commission from God to preach the gospel of Christ.

They didn't get authority because they believed the word of God. They got authority because Jesus commission them and gave the authority.

And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age." (Mt 28:18-20)

He told them to act and speak in his name.

How does a police officer get his authority to arrest someone?
Does he get it by reading a police manual?
No, He gets it by some process of commissioning by the Police Chief.

Quote from: Amo on Thu Apr 25, 2013 - 22:06:11

31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. John 8:31-32 (KJV)

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. John 17:6-23 (KJV)

It is the word of God, the word of God, the word of God! Not the person, or position given. The authority of the true church comes from the word of God, or not at all.

No, authority is given by someone who has it to someone who hasn't to act and speak in that person's name.

Let me give you a Biblical example
Take the example of the centurion with the sick servant in Mt 8:5-10. The centurion approaches Jesus and asks him to cure his servant.

Verse 9 is a key verse For I too am a person subject to authority, with soldiers subject to me. And I say to one, 'Go,' and he goes; and to another, 'Come here,' and he comes;

The Centurion has authority because of his rank, given him by those above him. I don't know the structure of the Roman Army but ultimately his authority comes from Caesar himself. When he gives an order to a soldier it was as if Caesar himself was standing there giving the order. To disobey the Centurion was to disobey Caesar.

Or we could put it another way - for a soldier to listen to the centurion was to listen to Caesar; to reject the centurion was to reject Caesar.

When the centurion said to Jesus "For I too am a person under authority" he was acknowledging that Jesus too had authority from above and that his word was sufficient to cure his servant Lord, I am not worthy to have you enter under my roof; only say the word and my servant will be healed .(verse 8) This is why Jesus was astonished at the faith of the centurion.

When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, "Amen, I say to you, in no one in Israel have I found such faith (verse 10).

Now move on to Luke 9:1-6 and Luke 10:1-6 Jesus enunciates these two principles with the disciples he send out on mission.He summoned the Twelve and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases,  and he sent them to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal (the sick).(Lk 9:1-2)  He gives them authority to act and authority to speak in his name. And he sums this up in verse 16 - Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.

That is a universal principle when Jesus gives someone a task, a mission, an office under his authority.

Thus when Jesus sends the apostles out on the great mission with the great commission in Mt 28:19-20
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age. He gives the apostles the authority to act and to speak in his name, and the "Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me." applies to them.

Quote from: Amo on Thu Apr 25, 2013 - 22:06:11

QuoteThe letters from Paul to Timothy and Titus record Paul appointing them to set up or oversee churches and giving them the authority to teach, just as the apostles were given authority by Jesus.

"Hold to the standard of sound teaching that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. Guard the good treasure entrusted to you, with the help of the Holy Spirit living in us." (2 Tim 1:13-14)

Paul instructs Timothy & Titus to pass on authority:
And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well. (2Tim 2:2)
"I left you behind in Crete for this reason, so that you should put in order what remained to be done, and should appoint elders in every town, as I directed you: .......... (Ti 1:5)

And to be careful who they choose:

This saying is trustworthy: whoever aspires to the office of bishop desires a noble task. Therefore, a bishop must be irreproachable, married only once, temperate, self-controlled, decent, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not aggressive, but gentle, not contentious, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, keeping his children under control with perfect dignity.. (1Tim 3:1-4)

For a bishop, as God's steward, must be blameless; ........... He must have a firm grasp of the word that is trustworthy in accordance with the teaching, so that he may be able both to preach with sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict it." (Tit1:7,9)

We see authority passed from the apostles to the deacons in Acts 2 "They had these men stand before the apostles, who prayed and laid their hands on them." Philip the deacon went off to Samaria and taught and baptised, just as the apostles had been told to do, and thereby given the authority to do.

The passing on of authority is done by the laying on of hands, for example Acts 6:6, 1Tim 4:14 2Tim 5:22.

All of the authority passed on was only to those who also subjected themselves to the authority of the word of God. No person can pass on any power from God but to one who also subjects themselves to the word of God. There is no magic or hocus pocus apart from this. There is no authority apart from, or above, or beyond God's authority which is based upon His word alone which is living and active and able to discern and judge all.

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. Heb 4:12-13 (KJV) .

There is no Biblical support for your view. When Paul commissioned Timothy and Titus there were no NT scriptures for them to be subject to.

Paul passed on his authority to them. Full stop!

Quote from: Amo on Thu Apr 25, 2013 - 22:06:11

QuoteThis is how authority was passed on from the apostles to bishops & priests down the ages.

The record of the passing on of authority is not just in scripture, but in the records of the early church, for example:-

Pope Clement I (writing in about 80AD)
"Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry" (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]).

Clement was not a Pope. There was no Pope during his day. Nor has the authority of the leaders of the Roman Catholic church been passed on in the manner described above over the centuries. Do you really want to get into an examination of historical fact regarding the passing on of papal authority over the centuries? I would not recommend it, it would not go well for you or your cause on this board. It would wholly disprove everything you just built up in defense of the usurped authority claimed by the Roman Catholic church. Nevertheless, we can go there if you want.

Yes there was. It's a historical fact.

Quote from: Amo on Thu Apr 25, 2013 - 22:06:11

QuoteJesus gave his authority to the apostles and told them to teach.
He also gave us a principle about his authority "Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me." (Lk 10:16).
Jesus is the final authority and he gave that to the leaders of his Church. To listen to them is to listen to Jesus. To reject them is to reject Jesus.

The above is correct concerning Jesus and the Apostles. This in no way shape or form means though, that all are to blindly follow whoever claims to have received authority from Jesus and the Apostles. To the contrary, all must know what Jesus and the Apostles said, in order to properly determine who has truly received authority in submission to their words. It is the word of God that is the real authority, not just anyone who claims to have received authority from Christ or the Apostles. If they have, let their teachings be examined and compared to the same for authenticity. If they refuse or believe they are above the same, then they are a false system and antichrist.

Scripture clearly shows that authority was passed on.

If you deny it you are denying the words of scripture

 

Quote from: Amo on Thu Apr 25, 2013 - 22:06:11

Quote4. No Catholic doctrine contradicts scripture and no scripture contradicts Catholic doctrine. That is because they come from the same source - the deposit of faith that Jesus entruested to the apostles, and with Jesus' guarantee that the Holy Spirit would lead them into all truth. (Jn 16:13). Jesus has not abandoned his Church and continues the lead the Church into all truth.

Sorry, say and believe whatever you will, this will never give you any authority over anyone. Back it up by the word of God, and you will have the authority you are speaking of, but not because of anything in you, only because of the power and authority of God's word. You will never convince those who have and study the word of God for themselves that you and yours are God's authority on earth.

I've backed up what I said by scripture.. You just need to read it.

Quote from: Amo on Thu Apr 25, 2013 - 22:06:11

Since you brought up Clement, whom you falsely claim to be a very early Pope, let's examine some of his words, in relation to that of a much later Pope. Emphasis mine.


ST. CLEMENT. EPISTLE TO THE CORINTHIANS

THE FIRST EPISTLE OF CLEMENT TO THE CORINTHIANS

CHAPTER 13
AN EXHORTATION TO HUMILITY
Let us therefore, brethren, be of humble mind, laying aside all haughtiness,
and pride, and foolishness, and angry feelings; and let us act according to
that which is written (for the Holy Spirit saith, "Let not the wise man
glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, neither
let the rich man glory in his riches; but let him that glorieth glory in the
Lord, in diligently seeking Him, and doing judgment and righteousness"),
being especially mindful of the words of the Lord Jesus which He spake,
teaching us meekness and long-suffering. For thus He spoke: "Be ye
merciful, that ye may obtain mercy; forgive, that it may be forgiven to
you; as ye do, so shall it be done unto you; as ye judge, so shall ye be
judged; as ye are kind, so shall kindness be shown to you; with what
measure ye mete, with the same it shall be measured to you." By this
precept and by these rules let us stablish ourselves, that we walk with all
humility in obedience to His holy words. For the holy word saith, "On
whom shall I look, but on him that is meek and peaceable, and that
trembleth at My words?"

CHAPTER 16
CHRIST AS AN EXAMPLE OF HUMILITY
For Christ is of those who are humble-minded, and not of those who exalt
themselves over His flock.[/b] Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Scepter of the
majesty of God, did not come in the pomp of pride or arrogance, although
He might have done so, but in a lowly condition, as the Holy Spirit had
declared regarding Him. For He says, "Lord, who hath believed our report,
and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? We have declared [our
message] in His presence: He is, as it were, a child, and like a root in
thirsty ground; He has no form nor glory, yea, we saw Him, and He had no
form nor comeliness; but His form was without eminence, yea, deficient in
comparison with the [ordinary] form of men. He is a man exposed to
stripes and suffering, and acquainted with the endurance of grief: for His
countenance was turned away; He was despised, and not esteemed. He
bears our iniquities, and is in sorrow for our sakes; yet we supposed that
[on His own account] He was exposed to labor, and stripes, and affliction.
But He was wounded for our transgressions, and bruised for our iniquities.
The chastisement of our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we were
healed. All we, like sheep, have gone astray; [every] man has wandered in
his own way; and the Lord has delivered Him up for our sins, while He in
the midst of His sufferings openeth not His mouth. He was brought as a
sheep to the slaughter, and as a lamb before her shearer is dumb, so He
openeth not His mouth. In His humiliation His judgment was taken away;
who shall declare His generation? for His life is taken from the earth. For
the transgressions of my people was He brought down to death. And I will
give the wicked for His sepulcher, and the rich for His death, because He
did no iniquity, neither was guile found in His mouth. And the Lord is
pleased to purify Him by stripes. If ye make an offering for sin, your soul
shall see a long-lived seed. And the Lord is pleased to relieve Him of the
affliction of His soul, to show Him light, and to form Him with
understanding, to justify the Just One who ministereth well to many; and
He Himself shall carry their sins. On this account He shall inherit many,
and shall divide the spoil of the strong; because His soul was delivered to
death, and He was reckoned among the transgressors, and He bare the sins
of many, and for their sins was He delivered." And again He saith, "I am a
worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people. All that
see Me have derided Me; they have spoken with their lips; they have
wagged their head, [saying] He hoped in God, let Him deliver Him, let Him
save Him, since He delighteth in Him." Ye see, beloved, what is the
example which has been given us; for if the Lord thus humbled Himself,
what shall we do who have through Him come under the yoke of His
grace?

CHAPTER 17
THE SAINTS AS EXAMPLES OF HUMILITY
Let us be imitators also of those who in goat-skins and sheep-skins went
about proclaiming the coming of Christ; I mean Elijah, Elisha, and Ezekiel
among the prophets, with those others to whom a like testimony is borne
[in Scripture]. Abraham was specially honored, and was called the friend
of God; yet he, earnestly regarding the glory of God, humbly declared, "I
am but dust and ashes." Moreover, it is thus written of Job, "Job was a
righteous man, and blameless, truthful, God-fearing, and one that kept
himself from all evil." But bringing an accusation against himself, he said, "
No man is free from defilement, even if his life be but of one day." Moses
was called faithful in all God's house; and through his instrumentality,
God punished Egypt with plagues and tortures. Yet he, though thus
greatly honored, did not adopt lofty language, but said, when the divine
oracle came to him out of the bush, "Who am I, that Thou sendest me? I
am a man of a feeble voice and a slow tongue." And again he said, "I am
but as the smoke of a pot."

CHAPTER 38
LET THE MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH SUBMIT THEMSELVES,
AND NO ONE EXALT HIMSELF ABOVE ANOTHER
Let our whole body, then, be preserved in Christ Jesus; and let every one
be subject to his neighbor, according to the special gift bestowed upon him.
Let the strong not despise the weak, and let the weak show respect unto
the strong. Let the rich man provide for the wants of the poor; and let the
poor man bless God, because He hath given him one by whom his need
may be supplied. Let the wise man display his wisdom, not by [mere]
words, but through good deeds. Let the humble not bear testimony to
himself, but leave witness to be borne to him by another. Let him that is
pure in the flesh not grow proud of it, and boast, knowing that it was
another who bestowed on him the gift of continence. Let us consider, then,
brethren, of what matter we were made, — who and what manner of
beings we came into the world, as it were out of a sepulcher, and from
utter darkness. He who made us and fashioned us, having prepared His
bountiful gifts for us before we were born, introduced us into His world.
Since, therefore, we receive all these things from Him, we ought for
everything to give Him thanks; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Good advice from Clement, now let us examine the words of Pope Boniface VIII. Emphasis mine.


THE BULL UNAM SANCTAM , 1302
The Bull 'Unam Sanctam', in which Pope Boniface VIII asserted his rights against King Phillip the Fair of France, is a landmark in the history of the doctrine of Papal Primacy.


The following English translation of 'Unam' is taken from a doctoral dissertation written in the Dept. of Philosophy at the Catholic University of America, and published by CUA Press in 1927.

UNAM SANCTAM (Promulgated November 18, 1302)
Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins, as the Spouse in the Canticles [Sgs 6:8] proclaims: 'One is my dove, my perfect one. She is the only one, the chosen of her who bore her,' and she represents one sole mystical body whose Head is Christ and the head of Christ is God [1 Cor 11:3]. In her then is one Lord, one faith, one baptism [Eph 4:5]. There had been at the time of the deluge only one ark of Noah, prefiguring the one Church, which ark, having been finished to a single cubit, had only one pilot and guide, i.e., Noah, and we read that, outside of this ark, all that subsisted on the earth was destroyed.

We venerate this Church as one, the Lord having said by the mouth of the prophet: 'Deliver, O God, my soul from the sword and my only one from the hand of the dog.' [Ps 21:20] He has prayed for his soul, that is for himself, heart and body; and this body, that is to say, the Church, He has called one because of the unity of the Spouse, of the faith, of the sacraments, and of the charity of the Church. This is the tunic of the Lord, the seamless tunic, which was not rent but which was cast by lot [Jn 19:23-24]. Therefore, of the one and only Church there is one body and one head, not two heads like a monster; that is, Christ and the Vicar of Christ, Peter and the successor of Peter, since the Lord speaking to Peter Himself said: 'Feed my sheep' [Jn 21:17], meaning, my sheep in general, not these, nor those in particular, whence we understand that He entrusted all to him [Peter]. Therefore, if the Greeks or others should say that they are not confided to Peter and to his successors, they must confess not being the sheep of Christ, since Our Lord says in John 'there is one sheepfold and one shepherd.' We are informed by the texts of the gospels that in this Church and in its power are two swords; namely, the spiritual and the temporal. For when the Apostles say: 'Behold, here are two swords' [Lk 22:38] that is to say, in the Church, since the Apostles were speaking, the Lord did not reply that there were too many, but sufficient. Certainly the one who denies that the temporal sword is in the power of Peter has not listened well to the word of the Lord commanding: 'Put up thy sword into thy scabbard' [Mt 26:52]. Both, therefore, are in the power of the Church, that is to say, the spiritual and the material sword, but the former is to be administered _for_ the Church but the latter by the Church; the former in the hands of the priest; the latter by the hands of kings and soldiers, but at the will and sufferance of the priest.

However, one sword ought to be subordinated to the other and temporal authority, subjected to spiritual power. For since the Apostle said: 'There is no power except from God and the things that are, are ordained of God' [Rom 13:1-2], but they would not be ordained if one sword were not subordinated to the other and if the inferior one, as it were, were not led upwards by the other.

For, according to the Blessed Dionysius, it is a law of the divinity that the lowest things reach the highest place by intermediaries. Then, according to the order of the universe, all things are not led back to order equally and immediately, but the lowest by the intermediary, and the inferior by the superior. Hence we must recognize the more clearly that spiritual power surpasses in dignity and in nobility any temporal power whatever, as spiritual things surpass the temporal. This we see very clearly also by the payment, benediction, and consecration of the tithes, but the acceptance of power itself and by the government even of things. For with truth as our witness, it belongs to spiritual power to establish the terrestrial power and to pass judgement if it has not been good. Thus is accomplished the prophecy of Jeremias concerning the Church and the ecclesiastical power: 'Behold to-day I have placed you over nations, and over kingdoms' and the rest. Therefore, if the terrestrial power err, it will be judged by the spiritual power; but if a minor spiritual power err, it will be judged by a superior spiritual power; but if the highest power of all err, it can be judged only by God, and not by man, according to the testimony of the Apostle: 'The spiritual man judgeth of all things and he himself is judged by no man' [1 Cor 2:15]. This authority, however, (though it has been given to man and is exercised by man), is not human but rather divine, granted to Peter by a divine word and reaffirmed to him (Peter) and his successors by the One Whom Peter confessed, the Lord saying to Peter himself, 'Whatsoever you shall bind on earth, shall be bound also in Heaven' etc., [Mt 16:19]. Therefore whoever resists this power thus ordained by God, resists the ordinance of God [Rom 13:2], unless he invent like Manicheus two beginnings, which is false and judged by us heretical, since according to the testimony of Moses, it is not in the beginnings but in the beginning that God created heaven and earth [Gen 1:1]. Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

Ah, such humility. Do you deny the above Winsome? Or are you in agreement?

Your rant  is completely off topic

QuoteScripture clearly shows that authority was passed on.

If you deny it you are denying the words of scripture

If authority was passed on, perhaps the legitimate authority was passed to others, not regarded as saints by the RCC.

Or perhaps the authority passed on, was a mistake, where they passed on authority to a wrong person, such as what happened in the old testament where authority was passed on, but the next in line used that authority for their own ends.

Also another point is what is this authority? To declare doctrine? If this is so then this is what protestants have done, same as pope and RCC saints, so same so called crime. If not have authority, then both protestants and the early church fathers have done wrong, in declaring interpretation.

Quote from: FireSword on Fri Apr 26, 2013 - 11:40:08

QuoteScripture clearly shows that authority was passed on.

If you deny it you are denying the words of scripture

If authority was passed on, perhaps the legitimate authority was passed to others, not regarded as saints by the RCC.

You don't have to be a Saint to have authority. But you have to be given it by someone who has it to pass on.

Quote from: FireSword on Fri Apr 26, 2013 - 11:40:08
Or perhaps the authority passed on, was a mistake, where they passed on authority to a wrong person, such as what happened in the old testament where authority was passed on, but the next in line used that authority for their own ends.

Possibly but that doesn't change that they had authority. A bad cop still has the authority of a cop until it is taken away from him.

Quote from: FireSword on Fri Apr 26, 2013 - 11:40:08
Also another point is what is this authority? To declare doctrine? If this is so then this is what protestants have done, same as pope and RCC saints, so same so called crime. If not have authority, then both protestants and the early church fathers have done wrong, in declaring interpretation.

From whom did Protestants get their authority?
We know how authority was passed on in the early church and still is in the Catholic and Orthodox churches. Lines of authority go back to the apostles.

QuotePossibly but that doesn't change that they had authority. A bad cop still has the authority of a cop until it is taken away from him.

So why are catholics angry at protestants for pointing out flaws in bad cops {bad popes}, those who rebel against bad popes should be hailed as heros.

QuoteYou don't have to be a Saint to have authority. But you have to be given it by someone who has it to pass on

So this authority could be passed on to evil people all the time. In the old testament king David passed on authority to his sons, but this system gave way because most sons were corrupt and made things harder for the people of Israel. Similar could be with the RCC, who made life hard for believers, with unrealistic expectations of perfection, adding burdens on the people, that they could not carry, bringing miserable monastries, where evil practices were conducted. But God heard the cry of his people and sent servants to end this corruption, but the RCC leaders did everything they could to shut the voice of the prophets, by burning thier books, casting them in prison and accusing them of heresy and demanding punishments via the gentiles kings, very similar to how the Jewish religious leaders demanded Jesus to be punished. But Luther prevailed and his portrait reveals this man to be a powerfull man who could not be intimidated by the RCC and despite putting him under house arrest he prevailed in the faith and endured sound doctrine.

QuoteFrom whom did Protestants get their authority?
We know how authority was passed on in the early church and still is in the Catholic and Orthodox churches. Lines of authority go back to the apostles.

They got authority from the resurected Lord. Is there any scripture which forbids this?

Also there are other lines of authority called 'the lost bishops'.

Quote from: FireSword on Fri Apr 26, 2013 - 12:29:20

QuotePossibly but that doesn't change that they had authority. A bad cop still has the authority of a cop until it is taken away from him.

So why are catholics angry at protestants for pointing out flaws in bad cops {bad popes}, those who rebel against bad popes should be hailed as heros.

I would have to see an example of that.

The context is important. I see no problem in Protestants pointing out flaws in people if it is relevant to the topic but usually it isn't. It's just an excuse to bash Catholics

Quote from: FireSword on Fri Apr 26, 2013 - 12:29:20

QuoteYou don't have to be a Saint to have authority. But you have to be given it by someone who has it to pass on

So this authority could be passed on to evil people all the time.

Why would anyone pass on authority to an evil person?

Why do you think such a thing would happen all the time?

Jesus promised to protect his Church from falling into teaching error

Quote from: FireSword on Fri Apr 26, 2013 - 12:29:20

In the old testament king David passed on authority to his sons, but this system gave way because most sons were corrupt and made things harder for the people of Israel.

Actually that is a bad example. David passed on his authority to Solomon who pleased God, although he later fell into idolatry. It was Solomon's son who caused a lot of trouble.

Quote from: FireSword on Fri Apr 26, 2013 - 12:29:20
Similar could be with the RCC, who made life hard for believers, with unrealistic expectations of perfection, adding burdens on the people, that they could not carry, bringing miserable monastries, where evil practices were conducted. But God heard the cry of his people and sent servants to end this corruption, but the RCC leaders did everything they could to shut the voice of the prophets, by burning thier books, casting them in prison and accusing them of heresy and demanding punishments via the gentiles kings, very similar to how the Jewish religious leaders demanded Jesus to be punished. But Luther prevailed and his portrait reveals this man to be a powerfull man who could not be intimidated by the RCC and despite putting him under house arrest he prevailed in the faith and endured sound doctrine.

You start with X could happen and then switch into X/Y/Z did happen without any proof whatsoever.

In other words you are just Catholic bashing, making wild accusations with no evidence.

Quote from: FireSword on Fri Apr 26, 2013 - 12:29:20

QuoteFrom whom did Protestants get their authority?
We know how authority was passed on in the early church and still is in the Catholic and Orthodox churches. Lines of authority go back to the apostles.

They got authority from the resurected Lord. Is there any scripture which forbids this?

Is there any evidence for this claim?

Quote from: FireSword on Fri Apr 26, 2013 - 12:29:20
Also there are other lines of authority called 'the lost bishops'.

What are they?

What evidence do you have for this?

QuoteI would have to see an example of that.

The context is important. I see no problem in Protestants pointing out flaws in people if it is relevant to the topic but usually it isn't. It's just an excuse to bash Catholics

Protestants rebelled against the popes. Catholics say they are not Christians as they have left the holy see.

QuoteWhy would anyone pass on authority to an evil person?



Why do you think such a thing would happen all the time?

Jesus promised to protect his Church from falling into teaching error

They would pass it on maybe because they were deceived, such as Jacob who was deceived by his own son.
It could happen all the time because mankind is wicked and is easilly corrupted.
The church always teaches error, we only see through a glass darkly, till the time comes we will see  clearly. Jesus promised to protect his church from destruction into the oblivion of hell. This is a promise he has kept. In every generation, despite famine, wars, inprisonments, persecution the church continues to this day and till the day of his coming.

QuoteActually that is a bad example. David passed on his authority to Solomon who pleased God, although he later fell into idolatry. It was Solomon's son who caused a lot of trouble

No, because Solomon became corrupted by his many wifes and so the corruption continued through his son {the iniquity of the father passes onto the son}

QuoteYou start with X could happen and then switch into X/Y/Z did happen without any proof whatsoever.

In other words you are just Catholic bashing, making wild accusations with no evidence.

It sounds good and reasonable to me, maybe the post was inspired by the holy spirit as a general indicator of what happened. History backs up much of what I said.
I write it because you need to understand protestants were good people who fought against corruption. This makes them worthy of praise and worthy of being called saints of God.

QuoteIs there any evidence for this claim?

The evidence is by their fruits ye shall know them and by the miracles accomplished. This is scriptural and legitimate, without needing a degree in history. Popes on the other hand have a famine of miracles, maybe the scholarly education, the wisdom of the world had it wrong about them having authority. Since the world loves titles, more than miracles.

QuoteWhat are they?

What evidence do you have for this?

They are smart christians.
They call these the wondering bishops. Many of these early catholics left the holy see. They differ from protestants in that they kept the rituals, but like protestants, left the offices of pope.

Quote from: FireSword on Fri Apr 26, 2013 - 17:32:02

QuoteI would have to see an example of that.

The context is important. I see no problem in Protestants pointing out flaws in people if it is relevant to the topic but usually it isn't. It's just an excuse to bash Catholics

Protestants rebelled against the popes. Catholics say they are not Christians as they have left the holy see.

Not true

Quote from: FireSword on Fri Apr 26, 2013 - 17:32:02

QuoteWhy would anyone pass on authority to an evil person?



Why do you think such a thing would happen all the time?

Jesus promised to protect his Church from falling into teaching error

They would pass it on maybe because they were deceived, such as Jacob who was deceived by his own son.
It could happen all the time because mankind is wicked and is easilly corrupted.
The church always teaches error, we only see through a glass darkly, till the time comes we will see  clearly. Jesus promised to protect his church from destruction into the oblivion of hell. This is a promise he has kept. In every generation, despite famine, wars, inprisonments, persecution the church continues to this day and till the day of his coming.

If the Church taught error then hell would have prevailed and Jesus promised it wouldn't. Moreover Jesus promised the Church would be preserved from error by the Holy Spirit by reminding the apostles of all that Jesus had taught them (Jn 14:26) and guide them into the truth in the future (Jn 16:13)

Quote from: FireSword on Fri Apr 26, 2013 - 17:32:02

QuoteActually that is a bad example. David passed on his authority to Solomon who pleased God, although he later fell into idolatry. It was Solomon's son who caused a lot of trouble

No, because Solomon became corrupted by his many wifes and so the corruption continued through his son {the iniquity of the father passes onto the son}

But Solomon was good to start with and that was the example you gave.

Quote from: FireSword on Fri Apr 26, 2013 - 17:32:02

QuoteYou start with X could happen and then switch into X/Y/Z did happen without any proof whatsoever.

In other words you are just Catholic bashing, making wild accusations with no evidence.

It sounds good and reasonable to me, maybe the post was inspired by the holy spirit as a general indicator of what happened. History backs up much of what I said.

I write it because you need to understand protestants were good people who fought against corruption. This makes them worthy of praise and worthy of being called saints of God.

But you haven't backed up any of it. Therefore they are unsubstantiated claims.

Quote from: FireSword on Fri Apr 26, 2013 - 17:32:02

QuoteIs there any evidence for this claim?

The evidence is by their fruits ye shall know them and by the miracles accomplished. This is scriptural and legitimate, without needing a degree in history. Popes on the other hand have a famine of miracles, maybe the scholarly education, the wisdom of the world had it wrong about them having authority. Since the world loves titles, more than miracles.

Untrue. There have been many miracled produced by many people in the Church over the centuries.

Quote from: FireSword on Fri Apr 26, 2013 - 17:32:02

QuoteWhat are they?

What evidence do you have for this?

They are smart christians.
They call these the wondering bishops. Many of these early catholics left the holy see. They differ from protestants in that they kept the rituals, but like protestants, left the offices of pope.

As with all your claims you provide no evidence.

Quote from: winsome on Sat Apr 27, 2013 - 08:06:11

Quote from: FireSword on Fri Apr 26, 2013 - 17:32:02

QuoteI would have to see an example of that.

The context is important. I see no problem in Protestants pointing out flaws in people if it is relevant to the topic but usually it isn't. It's just an excuse to bash Catholics

Protestants rebelled against the popes. Catholics say they are not Christians as they have left the holy see.

Not true

Quote from: FireSword on Fri Apr 26, 2013 - 17:32:02

QuoteWhy would anyone pass on authority to an evil person?



Why do you think such a thing would happen all the time?

Jesus promised to protect his Church from falling into teaching error

They would pass it on maybe because they were deceived, such as Jacob who was deceived by his own son.
It could happen all the time because mankind is wicked and is easilly corrupted.
The church always teaches error, we only see through a glass darkly, till the time comes we will see  clearly. Jesus promised to protect his church from destruction into the oblivion of hell. This is a promise he has kept. In every generation, despite famine, wars, inprisonments, persecution the church continues to this day and till the day of his coming.

If the Church taught error then hell would have prevailed and Jesus promised it wouldn't. Moreover Jesus promised the Church would be preserved from error by the Holy Spirit by reminding the apostles of all that Jesus had taught them (Jn 14:26) and guide them into the truth in the future (Jn 16:13)

Quote from: FireSword on Fri Apr 26, 2013 - 17:32:02

QuoteActually that is a bad example. David passed on his authority to Solomon who pleased God, although he later fell into idolatry. It was Solomon's son who caused a lot of trouble

No, because Solomon became corrupted by his many wifes and so the corruption continued through his son {the iniquity of the father passes onto the son}

But Solomon was good to start with and that was the example you gave.

Quote from: FireSword on Fri Apr 26, 2013 - 17:32:02

QuoteYou start with X could happen and then switch into X/Y/Z did happen without any proof whatsoever.

In other words you are just Catholic bashing, making wild accusations with no evidence.

It sounds good and reasonable to me, maybe the post was inspired by the holy spirit as a general indicator of what happened. History backs up much of what I said.

I write it because you need to understand protestants were good people who fought against corruption. This makes them worthy of praise and worthy of being called saints of God.

But you haven't backed up any of it. Therefore they are unsubstantiated claims.

Quote from: FireSword on Fri Apr 26, 2013 - 17:32:02

QuoteIs there any evidence for this claim?

The evidence is by their fruits ye shall know them and by the miracles accomplished. This is scriptural and legitimate, without needing a degree in history. Popes on the other hand have a famine of miracles, maybe the scholarly education, the wisdom of the world had it wrong about them having authority. Since the world loves titles, more than miracles.

Untrue. There have been many miracled produced by many people in the Church over the centuries.

Quote from: FireSword on Fri Apr 26, 2013 - 17:32:02

QuoteWhat are they?

What evidence do you have for this?

They are smart christians.
They call these the wondering bishops. Many of these early catholics left the holy see. They differ from protestants in that they kept the rituals, but like protestants, left the offices of pope.

As with all your claims you provide no evidence.

Does all things have to have evidence to be true? In a court of law we must have evidence. All to often those who are guilty go free because they did not have evidence. Or something may not be proven yet it is true?

Many times we have an instink of something and in your heart you know know that know. Just as I know Jesus is the Son of God and i never was with Him to see anything He did.

Quote from: mclees8 on Sun Apr 28, 2013 - 11:19:43

Quote from: winsome on Sat Apr 27, 2013 - 08:06:11

Quote from: FireSword on Fri Apr 26, 2013 - 17:32:02

QuoteI would have to see an example of that.

The context is important. I see no problem in Protestants pointing out flaws in people if it is relevant to the topic but usually it isn't. It's just an excuse to bash Catholics

Protestants rebelled against the popes. Catholics say they are not Christians as they have left the holy see.

Not true

Quote from: FireSword on Fri Apr 26, 2013 - 17:32:02

QuoteWhy would anyone pass on authority to an evil person?



Why do you think such a thing would happen all the time?

Jesus promised to protect his Church from falling into teaching error

They would pass it on maybe because they were deceived, such as Jacob who was deceived by his own son.
It could happen all the time because mankind is wicked and is easilly corrupted.
The church always teaches error, we only see through a glass darkly, till the time comes we will see  clearly. Jesus promised to protect his church from destruction into the oblivion of hell. This is a promise he has kept. In every generation, despite famine, wars, inprisonments, persecution the church continues to this day and till the day of his coming.

If the Church taught error then hell would have prevailed and Jesus promised it wouldn't. Moreover Jesus promised the Church would be preserved from error by the Holy Spirit by reminding the apostles of all that Jesus had taught them (Jn 14:26) and guide them into the truth in the future (Jn 16:13)

Quote from: FireSword on Fri Apr 26, 2013 - 17:32:02

QuoteActually that is a bad example. David passed on his authority to Solomon who pleased God, although he later fell into idolatry. It was Solomon's son who caused a lot of trouble

No, because Solomon became corrupted by his many wifes and so the corruption continued through his son {the iniquity of the father passes onto the son}

But Solomon was good to start with and that was the example you gave.

Quote from: FireSword on Fri Apr 26, 2013 - 17:32:02

QuoteYou start with X could happen and then switch into X/Y/Z did happen without any proof whatsoever.

In other words you are just Catholic bashing, making wild accusations with no evidence.

It sounds good and reasonable to me, maybe the post was inspired by the holy spirit as a general indicator of what happened. History backs up much of what I said.

I write it because you need to understand protestants were good people who fought against corruption. This makes them worthy of praise and worthy of being called saints of God.

But you haven't backed up any of it. Therefore they are unsubstantiated claims.

Quote from: FireSword on Fri Apr 26, 2013 - 17:32:02

QuoteIs there any evidence for this claim?

The evidence is by their fruits ye shall know them and by the miracles accomplished. This is scriptural and legitimate, without needing a degree in history. Popes on the other hand have a famine of miracles, maybe the scholarly education, the wisdom of the world had it wrong about them having authority. Since the world loves titles, more than miracles.

Untrue. There have been many miracled produced by many people in the Church over the centuries.

Quote from: FireSword on Fri Apr 26, 2013 - 17:32:02

QuoteWhat are they?

What evidence do you have for this?

They are smart christians.
They call these the wondering bishops. Many of these early catholics left the holy see. They differ from protestants in that they kept the rituals, but like protestants, left the offices of pope.

As with all your claims you provide no evidence.

Does all things have to have evidence to be true? In a court of law we must have evidence. All to often those who are guilty go free because they did not have evidence. Or something may not be proven yet it is true?

Many times we have an instink of something and in your heart you know know that know. Just as I know Jesus is the Son of God and i never was with Him to see anything He did.

If you cannot provide any evidence then it is just a figment of your imagination.

Quote from: winsome on Sun Apr 28, 2013 - 13:43:43

Quote from: mclees8 on Sun Apr 28, 2013 - 11:19:43

Quote from: winsome on Sat Apr 27, 2013 - 08:06:11

Quote from: FireSword on Fri Apr 26, 2013 - 17:32:02

QuoteI would have to see an example of that.

The context is important. I see no problem in Protestants pointing out flaws in people if it is relevant to the topic but usually it isn't. It's just an excuse to bash Catholics

Protestants rebelled against the popes. Catholics say they are not Christians as they have left the holy see.

Not true

Quote from: FireSword on Fri Apr 26, 2013 - 17:32:02

QuoteWhy would anyone pass on authority to an evil person?



Why do you think such a thing would happen all the time?

Jesus promised to protect his Church from falling into teaching error

They would pass it on maybe because they were deceived, such as Jacob who was deceived by his own son.
It could happen all the time because mankind is wicked and is easilly corrupted.
The church always teaches error, we only see through a glass darkly, till the time comes we will see  clearly. Jesus promised to protect his church from destruction into the oblivion of hell. This is a promise he has kept. In every generation, despite famine, wars, inprisonments, persecution the church continues to this day and till the day of his coming.

If the Church taught error then hell would have prevailed and Jesus promised it wouldn't. Moreover Jesus promised the Church would be preserved from error by the Holy Spirit by reminding the apostles of all that Jesus had taught them (Jn 14:26) and guide them into the truth in the future (Jn 16:13)

Quote from: FireSword on Fri Apr 26, 2013 - 17:32:02

QuoteActually that is a bad example. David passed on his authority to Solomon who pleased God, although he later fell into idolatry. It was Solomon's son who caused a lot of trouble

No, because Solomon became corrupted by his many wifes and so the corruption continued through his son {the iniquity of the father passes onto the son}

But Solomon was good to start with and that was the example you gave.

Quote from: FireSword on Fri Apr 26, 2013 - 17:32:02

QuoteYou start with X could happen and then switch into X/Y/Z did happen without any proof whatsoever.

In other words you are just Catholic bashing, making wild accusations with no evidence.

It sounds good and reasonable to me, maybe the post was inspired by the holy spirit as a general indicator of what happened. History backs up much of what I said.

I write it because you need to understand protestants were good people who fought against corruption. This makes them worthy of praise and worthy of being called saints of God.

But you haven't backed up any of it. Therefore they are unsubstantiated claims.

Quote from: FireSword on Fri Apr 26, 2013 - 17:32:02

QuoteIs there any evidence for this claim?

The evidence is by their fruits ye shall know them and by the miracles accomplished. This is scriptural and legitimate, without needing a degree in history. Popes on the other hand have a famine of miracles, maybe the scholarly education, the wisdom of the world had it wrong about them having authority. Since the world loves titles, more than miracles.

Untrue. There have been many miracled produced by many people in the Church over the centuries.

Quote from: FireSword on Fri Apr 26, 2013 - 17:32:02

QuoteWhat are they?

What evidence do you have for this?

They are smart christians.
They call these the wondering bishops. Many of these early catholics left the holy see. They differ from protestants in that they kept the rituals, but like protestants, left the offices of pope.

As with all your claims you provide no evidence.

Does all things have to have evidence to be true? In a court of law we must have evidence. All to often those who are guilty go free because they did not have evidence. Or something may not be proven yet it is true?

Many times we have an instink of something and in your heart you know know that know. Just as I know Jesus is the Son of God and i never was with Him to see anything He did.

If you cannot provide any evidence then it is just a figment of your imagination.

I don't think you are getting it and i am not surprised at you answer. It happens all the time. You know that someone or something is going on but you have not the evidence to back it. Just because you don't have the smoking gun does not mean that something  isn't  going on or is not true.

I guess you have a hard time with the Holy Spirit. or the things of faith which is the evidence of thing not seen.  Just like Jesus said the spirit is like the wind but you no not from where it comes. Or like the kingdom of heaven where God resides in the spirit. Jesus told his disciples that he would send the comforter whom the world cannot recieve because they seeth him not neither do they know him, but you know him for he dwelleth with and shall be in you.

If you deny these as figments of the you imagination then you deny the very power of God and the salvation of your faith.
Do you beleive these things?

I'm waiting for evidence of:

QuoteThey are smart christians.
They call these the wondering bishops. Many of these early catholics left the holy see. They differ from protestants in that they kept the rituals, but like protestants, left the offices of pope.

Where is your evidence?