Christian Forums

Quote from: LovesBNAmom on Mon Apr 14, 2014 - 15:36:31
Willie-  I respect the fact that you read this book though I believe like me you discovered it to be a blatant manipulations since you have ceased to defend it.  I don't understand this idea of dialogue and this idea that children get to participate as adults.  They are not adults they are not prepared to be adults.  Why must we suppress our core beliefs because we are afraid to hurt our children's feelings.    I approached her directly I didn't sugar coat it and I am proud of that.   This idea you have to tip toe and get to the cause and understand before acting like a parent isn't being a parent.

You still won't let yourself get it, will you?

First of all, let's try to get the focus off you.  Many of the things you have said indicate a desire to be proven "right", and to be justified in your beliefs.  Good grief!  You actually want to be the "winner" in an argument with a 14 year-old who has no ultimate choice but to give in to you?  Fine........ if you were also 14 years old.

It's NOT about you, it's about HER, and about your responsibility in nurturing a sense of mature awareness and understanding judgment.  I have to say you seem to have done almost none of that during this very serious incident in her life.  You just muscled authority, and showed her that, to you, her opinions don't count for anything but to be thrown in the trash can.

I think you are still desperately needing to see her as a child.  And she is no longer that.  My, God, she just finished reading a book about lap dances and hand-jobs, and getting stoned.  You can't turn back the clock.  You can't "wish" her not to grow up and wonder what else there is, when she knows what the boy looking at her is thinking.

And, as others have said.... you don't know the half of it yet.  All you have succeeded in doing is making her believe that "since Mom doesn't care, I'll find my answers from those that DO care........ the kids who listen to me, and respect my opinions."

And you know very well that I never defended that book.  (Other than to say that Matt was pretty much telling it like it is over much of our land)  What I DID say was that GOD blessed you with a rare opportunity many parents never get, to be a relevant and timely part of your daughter's transition from a child to a woman.  But, to graphically make a point, you threw that opportunity in the trash can, along with your daughter's attempt at developing an understanding of her value and worth.

So sad.  That was a precious gift, and you ground it underfoot to show your daughter how righteous you feel you are.  Even sadder........... she probably got it...  in spades.  Something that, like Matt, she may never forget.

Quote from: Willie T on Fri Apr 11, 2014 - 14:26:21

Please don't dismiss all the good dialogue this little book could help you instigate if skillfully managed to your advantage, just because it is not a literary pearl.  It is truly a diamond in the rough, IF you know how to make it reflect the properly selected and polished facets of developmental thinking in a teenager.
[/quote]

This appears to be quite the ringing endorsement.   I came to this forum for advice and I got it.  I apologize that you are so hurt I didn't take yours.  I want as rich of relationship with my daughter as any parent,  the only difference is I will not sacrifice her physical or spiritual health to get it. 

Quote from: LovesBNAmom on Mon Apr 14, 2014 - 16:30:04

Quote from: Willie T on Fri Apr 11, 2014 - 14:26:21

Please don't dismiss all the good dialogue this little book could help you instigate if skillfully managed to your advantage, just because it is not a literary pearl.  It is truly a diamond in the rough, IF you know how to make it reflect the properly selected and polished facets of developmental thinking in a teenager.

Quote from: LovesBNAmom on Mon Apr 14, 2014 - 16:30:04
This appears to be quite the ringing endorsement.   I came to this forum for advice and I got it.  I apologize that you are so hurt I didn't take yours.  I want as rich of relationship with my daughter as any parent,  the only difference is I will not sacrifice her physical or spiritual health to get it.

No one can be this detached.  I (and just about any parent on this board) can sit you down, and show you literally hundreds of golden opportunities to use almost every statement in that book as God-glorifying "lead-ins" to compare Matt and the Koz to the kind of person your daughter wants to be, and to respect........... to let her see, and decide for herself, just what sort of people these are.

Are you truly capable of only shockingly reacting to some "G-D" words, and "F-Bombs"?  Rather than using the reality your daughter lives in every day at school as a teaching and growing tool.

It doesn't have to be written, "Holy, Holy", in gold trim, to be a valuable thing you can use to help shape your child's life.  Do you honestly think your daughter doesn't hear, every day, (and maybe even more than just "hear") all those words that have you so horrified?  Hey, go volunteer at her school for a few months.  Your eyes will quickly be opened.  It's not all just ponies and popsicles in schools anymore.

Quote from: LovesBNAmom on Mon Apr 14, 2014 - 15:36:31
Willie-  I respect the fact that you read this book though I believe like me you discovered it to be a blatant manipulations since you have ceased to defend it.  I don't understand this idea of dialogue and this idea that children get to participate as adults.  They are not adults they are not prepared to be adults.  Why must we suppress our core beliefs because we are afraid to hurt our children's feelings.    I approached her directly I didn't sugar coat it and I am proud of that.   This idea you have to tip toe and get to the cause and understand before acting like a parent isn't being a parent.

Absolutely correct.

But at the same time she is an individual who has her own thoughts about things.

She might be confusing entertainment with logic with her desire to find truth in the book.

And taking God's name in vain is more about calling yourself a Christian and behaving poorly than misusing God's name.

So remind her that holy is not a static adjective.  The whole earth is holy and is seeking to destroy unholy mankind forced upon it.  Holy natural systems seek to actively destroy error. God will not be mocked and the whole universe will see to it. It is a very terrible thing to fall prey to an angry God who has reason to not extend grace.

This must be the peer chastisement forum. Misnamed perhaps.

Maybe her conversation with her daughter could have gone better, maybe she has already been self-critical about perceived mistakes. We all make them and none of us is perfect. However she didn't ask the peanut gallery to criticize her technique, but only for advice on what to do. And now it's done so she doesn't deserve this chastisement.  If she wanted our opinions on how she handled it she would ask for them. Instead she gets a righteous smack down that is beyond ironic, because I guarantee you if I was treated as she has been then asking a bunch of self-professing Christians would be the last place I would look for advice.

Addendum, I am not referring to johnDB's response.

Sorry, I'm not geared to simply say, "Oh well........ better luck next time."  I'm geared for truth, not placation.

She already said she was proud of the way she slammed the door on any meaningful dialogue.  Even said dialogue wasn't necessary.  This has not ended for them, and if I don't happen to look good, smiling and telling her it's all just fine, well that's where I have to take a cue from the way Jesus did things, not how I might make someone feel good about what I see as a serious mistake that will be repeated in the future if not directly and honestly addressed.

While I did not appreciate the language used in this book it had nothing to do with the reason I hated it.   My daughter listens to music that I dislike,  wears clothes I am not fond of,  watches TV shows that I find surprisingly explicit.  (ABC Family).    Sometimes there are discussions,  "What is it about this that you like?"   Other times lines are approached and I say nothing and other times lines are crossed and there is no discussions such as "you are not leaving in that?"   And what surprises me in this forum is the fact  that so many see the lesson in understanding the "why".   But fail to see the disservice they do in not eliminating the choice.    I don't believe in this  "You have to find your own way" new age parenting.   They are lost we are their guide.   Allowing children the ability to make all their own choices burdens them with stress. 

This book represented a gray area.  I asked for advice.  I read it even though I hated it... for my daughter.   I wasn't rash.   What I discovered was this book crossed way over the line.  I have given details to this books content.  Succumbing to curiosity is not a reason nor is peer pressure.  Her connection to it was defiant not spiritual.    It was an attempt to derail my daughter and before it happened I stepped in.     

Quote from: LovesBNAmom on Tue Apr 15, 2014 - 09:15:43
   Allowing children the ability to make all their own choices burdens them with stress.

Just speaking in general terms, NOT about your choice on this book:  As someone who was raised with this mindset, (that children should not be given the ability to make their own choices) it is VERY stressful as an adult, who feels incapable of making choices.  It has been a life long struggle of mine, because the attitude of parents who heard what my feelings were and responded "too dam* bad", or "Kids know nothing" or not being allowed a voice, or thoughts of my own has left me doubting my own abilities to make decisions.

There is a way to help them learn, sure, and parents of course get the final say, but it isn't all black and white.  Kids are people and it is important to raise them not only with conviction and integrity, but also the gift of understanding they are capable and confident in their abilities to question authority, to find their own way to go, to discover their own convictions.  It isn't always the easiest way to raise them, admittedly.   

Quote from: LovesBNAmom on Tue Apr 15, 2014 - 09:15:43Her connection to it was defiant not spiritual.       

Well, you know her better than we do...but, was this your conclusion about her, or your friends conclusion?

My son had a crisis of faith too.  It wasn't defiance, it was a growing pain...

Quote from: MeMyself on Tue Apr 15, 2014 - 09:28:58
Just speaking in general terms, NOT about your choice on this book:

But this exactly what is happening.  Removing the book then examining my actions.  If you take away this book then my actions obviously appear overbearing.    This book represented new territory for me and it was serious enough that I felt compelled to reach out to my friend and this forum.   I have offered my  philosophies yes but don't take this situation and remove the book and assume this is how every situation is dealt with in our home.   That isn't fair nor is accurate.    She is 14 years old not 24 and yes there are "Because I said so moments"   This situation is a far bigger deal than any of those because of this book and its contents. 

Quote from: LovesBNAmom on Tue Apr 15, 2014 - 11:26:25

Quote from: MeMyself on Tue Apr 15, 2014 - 09:28:58
Just speaking in general terms, NOT about your choice on this book:

But this exactly what is happening.  Removing the book then examining my actions.  If you take away this book then my actions obviously appear overbearing.    This book represented new territory for me and it was serious enough that I felt compelled to reach out to my friend and this forum.   I have offered my  philosophies yes but don't take this situation and remove the book and assume this is how every situation is dealt with in our home.   That isn't fair nor is accurate.    She is 14 years old not 24 and yes there are "Because I said so moments"   This situation is a far bigger deal than any of those because of this book and its contents. 

I don't assume anything about how things are run in your home because of the book.  I was speaking in terms of general raising of children in general...

please, I am beggin you to do away with the "because I said so" style though. Kids feel constrained by that, see it as hypocritical, *want* to be on our side and so they *want* to be treated with enough respect that they have our reasoning shared with them.

"Because I said so!!!" was said in my home growing up to silence me, abuse the authority given and to remind me that I was just a peon in the kingdom of mom and dad.

A better way to go IMO would be, (after hearing them out) "here are my concerns...(share them)..and I hope you understand I am not just arbitrarily taking this from you, but I do have to parent my convictions, and I believe this is not in your best interest at this time in your life, so Dad and I have to say no.  I may be wrong, I may be over reacting, but I love you and only want to protect you from what I see as harmful."
When I have put things this way, my kids anger melted away, they felt heard, they felt validated and respected as people, and they were more willing to obey and honor our wishes.  But, to each their own, I guess.

God bless!

My step father gave me one of the greatest lessons and examples I can remember.

At age 13 or 14 (what a coincidence!), I was camping out overnight with some buddies in a tent in their backyard.  My parents (Mom and step Dad) brought me something... but before getting all the way to the tent, they overheard us cussing like sailors, trying to be cool and "real men".

My mother went ballistic!  But my Step Father guided her away, and I stayed the rest of the night.

The next day, interestingly enough, my step father seemed to change.  He began cussing and using profanity at some of the most inopportune times.  It made me uncomfortable.  But he didn't just quit.  He kept it up to the point that I would become embarrassed.  THEN.... and only then, he let me respond to this seeming change in him.

I wasn't so stupid that I didn't fully understand what he was doing.  But he asked me "Why" he couldn't just cuss whenever he felt like it.  I caught on, and we had about a three hour discussion on what "being a REAL man" truly meant.

Oh, I've cussed since......... but never to just try to fit in or make myself "feel" like a man.

And, he never once told me I was wrong in any of my cussing that night... Never even said cussing was wrong.  He, instead, let me conclude for myself, what I thought about it, and to adjust my actions according to my own conclusions............... which we all know were REALLY his beliefs that he let me assimilate as my own.

Willie-  While I would have reacted more inline with your mother as opposed to your step father (Surprise) I can respect what he did by showing you the consequence of constantly cursing.   But my question to you is would he have elected this "assimilation" tactic had you boys been discovered with say pornography,  Cigarettes, or alcohol.   And this has been the point I have struggled to get through in this forum.  While you may view this book as an opportunity to open dialogue  I do not.   I see it as a gross,  cancerous, and mind numbing.   Just imagine you step father finding you with all 3,  because that is the level of concern this book generated in me. 

Quote from: LovesBNAmom on Tue Apr 15, 2014 - 15:37:04
Willie-  While I would have reacted more inline with your mother as opposed to your step father (Surprise) I can respect what he did by showing you the consequence of constantly cursing.   But my question to you is would he have elected this "assimilation" tactic had you boys been discovered with say pornography,  Cigarettes, or alcohol.   And this has been the point I have struggled to get through in this forum.  While you may view this book as an opportunity to open dialogue  I do not.   I see it as a gross,  cancerous, and mind numbing.   Just imagine you step father finding you with all 3,  because that is the level of concern this book generated in me.

I would say the reaction would be about the same for any of it.  My mother got a call at work from my grandmother telling her I was "puffing" a cigarette at around 8 or nine.  Mom told me how proud she was of me that I was becoming her little "man", and sat me down to teach me how to smoke a whole pack when she got home.  I didn't make it through one cigarette.  And I have always thought smoking is stupid, from that day forward.

My step dad caught me with a girl (not really doing anything) when I was 15.  Just his gentle look of, "this is not how men act", was all it took to keep me from that kind of foolishness for at least a year more.

Sex was never a deal with me because my mother really taught me, in quite some detail, all about the whole process from very early on... starting about 7 or 8.  So it was just a natural thing by the time I got to really noticing.

The point is that nothing was treated as "taboo", and I was never shamed for normal inclinations.  It is the basic tools of Satan, guilt and shame, with which we tend to warp our kids, and make them do what Adam and Eve did... hide from God, instead of seeking Him out for understanding of these new issues in our lives.

If we force them into the position of keeping secrets from us because we shame them for their feelings, then how in the world do we think they are going to ever turn to God for anything..... let alone ever begin to understand a relationship with Jesus?

Quote from: LovesBNAmom on Mon Apr 14, 2014 - 09:48:02
I spoke to my daughter.  I would like to thank those that offered advice.   I took my daughter out to eat.  Can't remember who offered this advice but the safety of a public place eased my tension and let me know that if there was an argument it would force both of us (probably more for me) to show some restraint.    Once I saw an opportunity I just approached it bluntly.  By saying "I read the book".   She was stunned and I just laid it all out there for her.   I did my best to be both concise and direct and state my objections and disappointment.    And yes disappointment.  I have a feeling I will get torched once again in this forum, but I am disappointed in her for one being lured or dared (as she put it), into reading this and two for not telling me.   I believe in censoring children from certain influence until they are better prepared.   

Many have said enlisting my friend was a mistake, it was not.   Just coming from church and having discussed certain ideas in youth group I believe made her more receptive.   Before responding   know that I am not so naïve to think that every thing a teenager says is authentic,  but I am not going to be afraid to protect  our core beliefs.  This idea that addressing this was somehow  going to scare her or push her away is ludicrous.   I would say sitting back and letting children wander aimlessly with out direction and consequences is lazy parenting.  Yes this was difficult and uncomfortable and there is tension as a result but it establish clear ground rules on what is and is not acceptable and I re-established myself as the authority in this house.     Her only punishment was to throw away her copy which she said she has given away.   She refused to tell me to whom and I am not sure I believe her.   Regardless I have to now think that another child is being exposed to this.     She also gave some vague attempt on how she got it.   I did have her watch while I threw away mine, and it upset her.   My friend suspects that there are three or four of the oldest children in youth group have read this and she is going to continue focus on the blatant manipulations.

Good for you. I have read most of this thread and I am very pleased with all of your actions. You are right, there is no acceptable answer for any child or anyone else pursuing a book that teaches heresies such as this book does. You have taught your child a good lesson in what is and what is not acceptable in life. And anything that contradicts Christ is UNACCEPTABLE, period, end of story. Your child will always remember this experience and it will serve her well later in life. Once again, I applaud you. Great job.

Quote from: Willie T on Tue Apr 15, 2014 - 16:17:46

Quote from: LovesBNAmom on Tue Apr 15, 2014 - 15:37:04
Willie-  While I would have reacted more inline with your mother as opposed to your step father (Surprise) I can respect what he did by showing you the consequence of constantly cursing.   But my question to you is would he have elected this "assimilation" tactic had you boys been discovered with say pornography,  Cigarettes, or alcohol.   And this has been the point I have struggled to get through in this forum.  While you may view this book as an opportunity to open dialogue  I do not.   I see it as a gross,  cancerous, and mind numbing.   Just imagine you step father finding you with all 3,  because that is the level of concern this book generated in me.

I would say the reaction would be about the same for any of it.  My mother got a call at work from my grandmother telling her I was "puffing" a cigarette at around 8 or nine.  Mom told me how proud she was of me that I was becoming her little "man", and sat me down to teach me how to smoke a whole pack when she got home.  I didn't make it through one cigarette.  And I have always thought smoking is stupid, from that day forward.

My step dad caught me with a girl (not really doing anything) when I was 15.  Just his gentle look of, "this is not how men act", was all it took to keep me from that kind of foolishness for at least a year more.

Sex was never a deal with me because my mother really taught me, in quite some detail, all about the whole process from very early on... starting about 7 or 8.  So it was just a natural thing by the time I got to really noticing.

The point is that nothing was treated as "taboo", and I was never shamed for normal inclinations.  It is the basic tools of Satan, guilt and shame, with which we tend to warp our kids, and make them do what Adam and Eve did... hide from God, instead of seeking Him out for understanding of these new issues in our lives.

If we force them into the position of keeping secrets from us because we shame them for their feelings, then how in the world do we think they are going to ever turn to God for anything..... let alone ever begin to understand a relationship with Jesus?

Willie, having bought up three lovely children, now in their late 20's and 30's, and remembering how my own parents acted, I have learnt that your approach is the one that works. The other approach leads to more secrecy, more hiding, less openness, and less sharing. We do need to let our growing teenage children spread their wings and have their own opinions and ideas as they grow, or else they will never mature or find their own faith. If we clamp down hard on the small things, that will result in many more problems in the future.(I have seen this happen time and time again). Once they are 18 and go to college or uni, we cant stop them doing what they want to when they want to, and then the ones who have been more restricted and controlled, often go the maddest and wildest once they are free of that parental control.
Its a balance, but we can find that middle ground with the right mix of love and wisdom. Loving consistent guidance is what is needed in my experience for teenagers, not heavy handedness or over control.
We need to also learn that our children are not us. They are not meant to be the same as us. They have their own journey in life and their own way of doing things. They have their own thoughts and their own ideas.  It wont be the way we do things and nor should it be.

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Apr 15, 2014 - 17:13:39

Quote from: Willie T on Tue Apr 15, 2014 - 16:17:46

Quote from: LovesBNAmom on Tue Apr 15, 2014 - 15:37:04
Willie-  While I would have reacted more inline with your mother as opposed to your step father (Surprise) I can respect what he did by showing you the consequence of constantly cursing.   But my question to you is would he have elected this "assimilation" tactic had you boys been discovered with say pornography,  Cigarettes, or alcohol.   And this has been the point I have struggled to get through in this forum.  While you may view this book as an opportunity to open dialogue  I do not.   I see it as a gross,  cancerous, and mind numbing.   Just imagine you step father finding you with all 3,  because that is the level of concern this book generated in me.

I would say the reaction would be about the same for any of it.  My mother got a call at work from my grandmother telling her I was "puffing" a cigarette at around 8 or nine.  Mom told me how proud she was of me that I was becoming her little "man", and sat me down to teach me how to smoke a whole pack when she got home.  I didn't make it through one cigarette.  And I have always thought smoking is stupid, from that day forward.

My step dad caught me with a girl (not really doing anything) when I was 15.  Just his gentle look of, "this is not how men act", was all it took to keep me from that kind of foolishness for at least a year more.

Sex was never a deal with me because my mother really taught me, in quite some detail, all about the whole process from very early on... starting about 7 or 8.  So it was just a natural thing by the time I got to really noticing.

The point is that nothing was treated as "taboo", and I was never shamed for normal inclinations.  It is the basic tools of Satan, guilt and shame, with which we tend to warp our kids, and make them do what Adam and Eve did... hide from God, instead of seeking Him out for understanding of these new issues in our lives.

If we force them into the position of keeping secrets from us because we shame them for their feelings, then how in the world do we think they are going to ever turn to God for anything..... let alone ever begin to understand a relationship with Jesus?

Willie, having bought up three lovely children, now in their late 20's and 30's, and remembering how my own parents acted, I have learnt that your approach is the one that works. The other approach leads to more secrecy, more hiding, less openness, and less sharing. We do need to let our growing teenage children spread their wings and have their own opinions and ideas as they grow, or else they will never mature or find their own faith. If we clamp down hard on the small things, that will result in many more problems in the future.(I have seen this happen time and time again). Once they are 18 and go to college or uni, we cant stop them doing what they want to when they want to, and then the ones who have been more restricted and controlled, often go the maddest and wildest once they are free of that parental control.
Its a balance, but we can find that middle ground with the right mix of love and wisdom. Loving consistent guidance is what is needed in my experience for teenagers, not heavy handedness or over control.
We need to also learn that our children are not us. They are not meant to be the same as us. They have their own journey in life and their own way of doing things. They have their own thoughts and their own ideas.  It wont be the way we do things and nor should it be.

Have you ever read the poem, The Prophet?  There is a section on children that begins.... "Your children are not your children...."

I'm off to church, right now, but I'll post it later on.  Really interesting.

Quote from: Willie T on Tue Apr 15, 2014 - 17:40:14
Have you ever read the poem, The Prophet?  There is a section on children that begins.... "Your children are not your children...."

I'm off to church, right now, but I'll post it later on.  Really interesting.

On Children
       And a woman who held a babe against her bosom said, "Speak to us of Children." And he said:
       Your children are not your children.
       They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
       They come through you but not from you,
       And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.
       You may give them your love but not your thoughts.
       For they have their own thoughts.
       You may house their bodies but not their souls,
       For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
       You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.
       For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.
       You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.
       The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, and He bends you with His might that His arrows may go swift and far.
       Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
       For even as he loves the arrow that flies, so He loves also the bow that is stable.

Quote from: Willie T on Tue Apr 15, 2014 - 20:57:56

Quote from: Willie T on Tue Apr 15, 2014 - 17:40:14
Have you ever read the poem, The Prophet?  There is a section on children that begins.... "Your children are not your children...."

I'm off to church, right now, but I'll post it later on.  Really interesting.

On Children
       And a woman who held a babe against her bosom said, "Speak to us of Children." And he said:
       Your children are not your children.
       They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
       They come through you but not from you,
       And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.
       You may give them your love but not your thoughts.
       For they have their own thoughts.
       You may house their bodies but not their souls,
       For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
       You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.
       For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.
       You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.
       The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, and He bends you with His might that His arrows may go swift and far.
       Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
       For even as he loves the arrow that flies, so He loves also the bow that is stable.

Very profound Willie.

Quote from: LovesBNAmom on Mon Apr 07, 2014 - 15:29:16
What is Humanism?

http://americanhumanist.org/Humanism

Humanism is a progressive philosophy of life that, without theism and other supernatural beliefs, affirms our ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good of humanity.

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Apr 15, 2014 - 23:05:56

Quote from: Willie T on Tue Apr 15, 2014 - 20:57:56

Quote from: Willie T on Tue Apr 15, 2014 - 17:40:14
Have you ever read the poem, The Prophet?  There is a section on children that begins.... "Your children are not your children...."

I'm off to church, right now, but I'll post it later on.  Really interesting.

On Children
       And a woman who held a babe against her bosom said, "Speak to us of Children." And he said:
       Your children are not your children.
       They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
       They come through you but not from you,
       And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.
       You may give them your love but not your thoughts.
       For they have their own thoughts.
       You may house their bodies but not their souls,
       For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
       You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.
       For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.
       You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.
       The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, and He bends you with His might that His arrows may go swift and far.
       Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
       For even as he loves the arrow that flies, so He loves also the bow that is stable.

Very profound Willie.

Yeah.  I always liked The Prophet.  Though not Christian in the way we would like to see it worded, very much a parallel of Christ's message.

Like this little book, a very good teaching tool, if thoughtfully handled through the eyes of Jesus.

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Apr 15, 2014 - 23:05:56

Quote from: Willie T on Tue Apr 15, 2014 - 20:57:56

Quote from: Willie T on Tue Apr 15, 2014 - 17:40:14
Have you ever read the poem, The Prophet?  There is a section on children that begins.... "Your children are not your children...."

I'm off to church, right now, but I'll post it later on.  Really interesting.

On Children
       And a woman who held a babe against her bosom said, "Speak to us of Children." And he said:
       Your children are not your children.
       They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
       They come through you but not from you,
       And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.
       You may give them your love but not your thoughts.
       For they have their own thoughts.
       You may house their bodies but not their souls,
       For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
       You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.
       For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.
       You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.
       The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, and He bends you with His might that His arrows may go swift and far.
       Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
       For even as he loves the arrow that flies, so He loves also the bow that is stable.

Very profound Willie.

ChosenOne,
If you have never heard this poem spoken aloud, may I offer you this rare gift.  As far as I know, this is no longer available.

Enjoy!

The Prophet By Kahlil Gibran Read by Richard Harris

Well, this book will not go away.  Our pastor made some veiled references to it in his Wednesday Service.   Afterward a few of us discussed over coffee.    Much like this forum there were a few parents that disagreed with my tactics.  But we all agree it is unsettling how quickly  this book came out of nowhere and was disseminated  through our youth group. Our pastor's response was "God places obstacles not to stop us,  but to strengthen us by overcoming them. We must seize this opportunity not for judgment  but for counsel.  We must replace our resentment with compassion. "   He urged, as his wife had done to me, for all of us to read it.  (Ironic that a book I loathe because of its attack on church is being encouraged to be read in church).   Currently the plan is to continue to focus on the "Good Works" portion of this book both  verbally and in practice.   But he was adamant that we can not ignore  the author's this person with a computer's manipulation, but we must be delicate on how we proceed.   There was some discussion on allowing the children an opportunity to speak openly about  this book that may very well be the outcome.

I was reluctant to make this post because of some of the comments I have received in this forum.   But I have included this forum from the beginning and I felt it would have been cowardly not to continue.   Even though I know many will see an opportunity to say I told you so based on my pastor's response.  While I will always see this book as meritless, I do  have an immense level of respect for both my Pastor and his Wife. 

Quote from: LovesBNAmom on Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 10:04:54
Well, this book will not go away.  Our pastor made some veiled references to it in his Wednesday Service.   Afterward a few of us discussed over coffee.    Much like this forum there were a few parents that disagreed with my tactics.  But we all agree it is unsettling how quickly  this book came out of nowhere and was disseminated  through our youth group. Our pastor's response was "God places obstacles not to stop us,  but to strengthen us by overcoming them. We must seize this opportunity not for judgment  but for counsel.  We must replace our resentment with compassion. "   He urged, as his wife had done to me, for all of us to read it.  (Ironic that a book I loathe because of its attack on church is being encouraged to be read in church).   Currently the plan is to continue to focus on the "Good Works" portion of this book both  verbally and in practice.   But he was adamant that we can not ignore  the author's this person with a computer's manipulation, but we must be delicate on how we proceed.   There was some discussion on allowing the children an opportunity to speak openly about  this book that may very well be the outcome.

I was reluctant to make this post because of some of the comments I have received in this forum.   But I have included this forum from the beginning and I felt it would have been cowardly not to continue.   Even though I know many will see an opportunity to say I told you so based on my pastor's response.  While I will always see this book as meritless, I do  have an immense level of respect for both my Pastor and his Wife. 

I am glad there will be more opportunity for dialog about it.

It is strange to me too that they would encourage everyone to read this book.  That is not what I would suggest.  That is, to me, like saying that there is this work called the Satanic Bible that we found out some of our kids are reading, so let's all read it, and focus on the parts we agree with.  Or perhaps a work by Aleister Crowley.  Or Mein Kampf.  Not that this book is on their level, but the concept is the same.  Something good can be gleaned out of almost anything; it is the devil that mixes evil with the good to make evil appear good, and that is how the original sin happened.

To me it would be enough for the pastor to read it only, and for him to be aware of it's dangerous teachings as well as it's good ideas, and to craft a sermon himself encouraging the good and explaining how the bad is false.  For example, give a sermon on the "why" of why going to Church to worship God on Sunday is important, and why serving the poor and needy is also important, and how you shouldn't do one without the other, how Jesus calls us to do both. 

He could even make it into a multi-part sermon series (which I know are common in some groups) so that all people would become aware, that everyone would hear the message.

But it is his charge to make that decision.  And in that sense I guess you have to live with that (as do other people in your group) but we shall see the end result.

I agree that it is important to treat our children with respect always, but I know that some things we passionately care about, and I think that passion too is good for them to see.  But ultimately our children should be led toward the true, and it is our job as parents to lead them that way, though they may reject it (to their detriment).  But charity (love) is such a powerful thing, as is knowing the true and good, that they should always be tied together.

Quote from: Catholica on Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 10:42:08
To me it would be enough for the pastor to read it only, and for him to be aware of it's dangerous teachings as well as it's good ideas, and to craft a sermon himself encouraging the good and explaining how the bad is false.  For example, give a sermon on the "why" of why going to Church to worship God on Sunday is important, and why serving the poor and needy is also important, and how you shouldn't do one without the other, how Jesus calls us to do both. 

Usually protestant pastors encourage their congregations to search things out for themselves to make sure the direction they are leading is in the right way.  All that I have sat under have said things to the effect of "Search this out for yourself. If you find I am in error, I invite a dialog about it."

I would be *highly* suspect of a leader that just wanted to spoon feed his congregation, but not wish them to participate and think for themselves.

Quote from: LovesBNAmom on Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 10:04:54
Well, this book will not go away.  Our pastor made some veiled references to it in his Wednesday Service.   Afterward a few of us discussed over coffee.    Much like this forum there were a few parents that disagreed with my tactics.  But we all agree it is unsettling how quickly  this book came out of nowhere and was disseminated  through our youth group. Our pastor's response was "God places obstacles not to stop us,  but to strengthen us by overcoming them. We must seize this opportunity not for judgment  but for counsel.  We must replace our resentment with compassion. "   He urged, as his wife had done to me, for all of us to read it.  (Ironic that a book I loathe because of its attack on church is being encouraged to be read in church).   Currently the plan is to continue to focus on the "Good Works" portion of this book both  verbally and in practice.   But he was adamant that we can not ignore  the author's this person with a computer's manipulation, but we must be delicate on how we proceed.   There was some discussion on allowing the children an opportunity to speak openly about  this book that may very well be the outcome.

I was reluctant to make this post because of some of the comments I have received in this forum.   But I have included this forum from the beginning and I felt it would have been cowardly not to continue.   Even though I know many will see an opportunity to say I told you so based on my pastor's response.  While I will always see this book as meritless, I do  have an immense level of respect for both my Pastor and his Wife.

I disagree with your pastor. We are not to willingly invite temptation into our lives in any way to "become stronger." That is tempting God, which Christ taught us not to do. Remember when the devil tempted Christ to throw himself off the temple pinnacle and Christ refused, saying, "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God."

Talking about the book is fine as long as you are quick to comdemn it as heresy while talking about it. That book is not acceptable to any Christian at all at any time.

Read the book - don't read the book. 

There may be some really dangerous stuff there.  Or there may not be. Or maybe it is just our opinion that it is dangerous.

There will always be something to tempt us away from the Lord.  If we pray for Him to "lead us not into temptation;" we should not take ourselves there either.  God has placed leaders in the body who are mature that can give an informed, discerned and spiritual summary without us going down that road.

Of all that I have read in this thread the thing that REALLY bothers me is someone appealing to Kahil Gibran - a famous islamic author. A pagan.

Quote from: MeMyself on Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 10:52:29

Quote from: Catholica on Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 10:42:08
To me it would be enough for the pastor to read it only, and for him to be aware of it's dangerous teachings as well as it's good ideas, and to craft a sermon himself encouraging the good and explaining how the bad is false.  For example, give a sermon on the "why" of why going to Church to worship God on Sunday is important, and why serving the poor and needy is also important, and how you shouldn't do one without the other, how Jesus calls us to do both. 

Usually protestant pastors encourage their congregations to search things out for themselves to make sure the direction they are leading is in the right way.  All that I have sat under have said things to the effect of "Search this out for yourself. If you find I am in error, I invite a dialog about it."

I would be *highly* suspect of a leader that just wanted to spoon feed his congregation, but not wish them to participate and think for themselves.

Well, maybe you should search out for yourself whether that method really works or not instead of just accepting it.   Start by counting the profound differences between 33,000 Protestant denominations (even between matters regarding salvation), asking yourself whether God is the author of confusion.  Then consider that he may have actually established a reliable authority from the time he walked among us so that we wouldn't have to determine those necessary truths revealed by God by ourselves (and thus create our own version of truth, i.e. denominations).

And explore the Catholic faith for yourself.  If you have any questions, even hard ones, you know I'm around to help.

Quote from: Catholica on Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 11:53:04

Quote from: MeMyself on Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 10:52:29

Quote from: Catholica on Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 10:42:08
To me it would be enough for the pastor to read it only, and for him to be aware of it's dangerous teachings as well as it's good ideas, and to craft a sermon himself encouraging the good and explaining how the bad is false.  For example, give a sermon on the "why" of why going to Church to worship God on Sunday is important, and why serving the poor and needy is also important, and how you shouldn't do one without the other, how Jesus calls us to do both. 

Usually protestant pastors encourage their congregations to search things out for themselves to make sure the direction they are leading is in the right way.  All that I have sat under have said things to the effect of "Search this out for yourself. If you find I am in error, I invite a dialog about it."

I would be *highly* suspect of a leader that just wanted to spoon feed his congregation, but not wish them to participate and think for themselves.

Well, maybe you should search out for yourself whether that method really works or not instead of just accepting it.   Start by counting the profound differences between 33,000 Protestant denominations (even between matters regarding salvation), asking yourself whether God is the author of confusion.  Then consider that he may have actually established a reliable authority from the time he walked among us so that we wouldn't have to determine those necessary truths revealed by God by ourselves (and thus create our own version of truth, i.e. denominations).

And explore the Catholic faith for yourself.  If you have any questions, even hard ones, you know I'm around to help.

I wasn't attacking you, your church or your faith, I was explaining why he would like his congregation to follow him in reading it...

Quote from: MeMyself on Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:11:30

Quote from: Catholica on Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 11:53:04

Quote from: MeMyself on Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 10:52:29

Quote from: Catholica on Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 10:42:08
To me it would be enough for the pastor to read it only, and for him to be aware of it's dangerous teachings as well as it's good ideas, and to craft a sermon himself encouraging the good and explaining how the bad is false.  For example, give a sermon on the "why" of why going to Church to worship God on Sunday is important, and why serving the poor and needy is also important, and how you shouldn't do one without the other, how Jesus calls us to do both. 

Usually protestant pastors encourage their congregations to search things out for themselves to make sure the direction they are leading is in the right way.  All that I have sat under have said things to the effect of "Search this out for yourself. If you find I am in error, I invite a dialog about it."

I would be *highly* suspect of a leader that just wanted to spoon feed his congregation, but not wish them to participate and think for themselves.

Well, maybe you should search out for yourself whether that method really works or not instead of just accepting it.   Start by counting the profound differences between 33,000 Protestant denominations (even between matters regarding salvation), asking yourself whether God is the author of confusion.  Then consider that he may have actually established a reliable authority from the time he walked among us so that we wouldn't have to determine those necessary truths revealed by God by ourselves (and thus create our own version of truth, i.e. denominations).

And explore the Catholic faith for yourself.  If you have any questions, even hard ones, you know I'm around to help.

I wasn't attacking you, your church or your faith, I was explaining why he would like his congregation to follow him in reading it...

I didn't say that you were, I'm just helping you see the logical conclusion of the method you are suggesting.  Are you sure that a leader's teachings shouldn't be trusted?  That it really makes sense to always be encouraged to explore things for ourselves?

A pastor's word it seems should be trusted, unless the word itself rings false.  So it makes sense for a pastor to be preaching truth with reasonable hope that people will listen to him.

Like, for example (if I may use it again) say instead of this book, her daughter had been reading the Satanic Bible.  Or what if it was erotica.  Would it make sense for the pastor to say, this needs to be addressed, so everyone should get a copy and read it, and then we can have a dialog?  Really?

Quote from: Catholica on Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:25:01

Quote from: MeMyself on Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:11:30

Quote from: Catholica on Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 11:53:04

Quote from: MeMyself on Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 10:52:29

Quote from: Catholica on Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 10:42:08
To me it would be enough for the pastor to read it only, and for him to be aware of it's dangerous teachings as well as it's good ideas, and to craft a sermon himself encouraging the good and explaining how the bad is false.  For example, give a sermon on the "why" of why going to Church to worship God on Sunday is important, and why serving the poor and needy is also important, and how you shouldn't do one without the other, how Jesus calls us to do both. 

Usually protestant pastors encourage their congregations to search things out for themselves to make sure the direction they are leading is in the right way.  All that I have sat under have said things to the effect of "Search this out for yourself. If you find I am in error, I invite a dialog about it."

I would be *highly* suspect of a leader that just wanted to spoon feed his congregation, but not wish them to participate and think for themselves.

Well, maybe you should search out for yourself whether that method really works or not instead of just accepting it.   Start by counting the profound differences between 33,000 Protestant denominations (even between matters regarding salvation), asking yourself whether God is the author of confusion.  Then consider that he may have actually established a reliable authority from the time he walked among us so that we wouldn't have to determine those necessary truths revealed by God by ourselves (and thus create our own version of truth, i.e. denominations).

And explore the Catholic faith for yourself.  If you have any questions, even hard ones, you know I'm around to help.

I wasn't attacking you, your church or your faith, I was explaining why he would like his congregation to follow him in reading it...

I didn't say that you were, I'm just helping you see the logical conclusion of the method you are suggesting.  Are you sure that a leader's teachings shouldn't be trusted?  That it really makes sense to always be encouraged to explore things for ourselves?

I didn't say it shouldn't be trusted, but that we are encouraged to search Truth out for ourselves, to see if the leading is going in a godly direction.  A humble leader wants input from their followers and redirection if need be as well.  There is not a thing wrong with that.  Blind following of humans can lead to very dangerous places.  Cults and the like do that (also that horrible church...Westburrough, I think its called).  God gave each of us a mind and He wants us to use them. :)

Quote from: Catholica on Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:25:01A pastor's word it seems should be trusted, unless the word itself rings false.  So it makes sense for a pastor to be preaching truth with reasonable hope that people will listen to him.

SURE! And, they also want us to learn to study and search scripture on our own...not to just remain as infants being spoon fed. 

Quote from: Catholica on Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:25:01Like, for example (if I may use it again) say instead of this book, her daughter had been reading the Satanic Bible.  Or what if it was erotica.  Would it make sense for the pastor to say, this needs to be addressed, so everyone should get a copy and read it, and then we can have a dialog?  Really?

Apples to oranges.

Quote from: Catholica on Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:25:01
I didn't say that you were, I'm just helping you see the logical conclusion of the method you are suggesting.  Are you sure that a leader's teachings shouldn't be trusted?  That it really makes sense to always be encouraged to explore things for ourselves?

A pastor's word it seems should be trusted, unless the word itself rings false.  So it makes sense for a pastor to be preaching truth with reasonable hope that people will listen to him.

Like, for example (if I may use it again) say instead of this book, her daughter had been reading the Satanic Bible.  Or what if it was erotica.  Would it make sense for the pastor to say, this needs to be addressed, so everyone should get a copy and read it, and then we can have a dialog?  Really?

Catholica - that is one of the MAJOR weaknesses of protestantism IMO - especially American evangelical protestantism. It denies the body.  Everyone is an individual and there is little or no connectedness between them so everyone has to constantly reinvent the wheel so to speak for themselves.

I heard one guy who was trying to combat that attitude describe a local congregation as "buying a motorcycle in a basket."  All the parts are there but there is no function because they are not assembled together. He called them a "collection" rather than an assembly.

"Forsake not the assembling of yourselves together as is the habit of some ..."

Quote from: MeMyself on Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:30:07

Quote from: Catholica on Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:25:01Like, for example (if I may use it again) say instead of this book, her daughter had been reading the Satanic Bible.  Or what if it was erotica.  Would it make sense for the pastor to say, this needs to be addressed, so everyone should get a copy and read it, and then we can have a dialog?  Really?

Apples to oranges.

That is your opinion, and those who share it probably do because they like the message in the book.

But the commandment cannot be set aside.  Yes we can do good on the Lord's Day, but thinking that we can worship God through works of charity alone (the message of this book) violates the commandment to observe the "Lord's Day" as a day of rest.

If you put it in perspective, the commandments themselves have a hierarchy.  The commandment to observe a day of rest for the Lord (4th in your reckoning, likely) is above the commandment to not commit adultery (the "7th") or not covet (the "10th") (each which might be an occasion of sin for some  from reading erotica).  So to introduce the idea that it is ok to break the 4th commandment is worse than encouraging people to read erotica.

Quote from: Catholica on Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:39:59

Quote from: MeMyself on Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:30:07

Quote from: Catholica on Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:25:01Like, for example (if I may use it again) say instead of this book, her daughter had been reading the Satanic Bible.  Or what if it was erotica.  Would it make sense for the pastor to say, this needs to be addressed, so everyone should get a copy and read it, and then we can have a dialog?  Really?

Apples to oranges.

That is your opinion, and those who share it probably do because they like the message in the book.

Oh.my.gosh! What is up with that? LOL.

   

Quote from: Catholica on Thu Apr 17, 2014 - 12:39:59But the commandment cannot be set aside.  Yes we can do good on the Lord's Day, but thinking that we can worship God through works of charity alone (the message of this book) violates the commandment to observe the "Lord's Day" as a day of rest.  If you put it in perspective, the commandments themselves have a hierarchy.  The commandment to observe a day of rest for the Lord (4th in your reckoning, likely) is above the commandment to not commit adultery (the "7th") or not covet (the "10th") (each which might be an occasion of sin for some  from reading erotica).  So to introduce the idea that it is ok to break the 4th commandment is worse than encouraging people to read erotica.

have you read it? 

I feel a need to correct my post in defense of my friend.  Encourage may have not been the best choice of words.   Almost all of the parents there last night including he and his wife have read it all ready.   He was saying just as his wife had recommended to me for us to understand what we are dealing with.  I believe his exact words were " I know many of you have read this book already and to the others you may want to take a look at it or speak with one of the others who had."   I am obviously uncomfortable with this approach and I feel I may have misrepresented him earlier.   But make no mistake he is equally concerned, and I have no doubt that he and his wife were called into service.   I guess I applied some of my own frustration on this topic that I am growing increasingly tired of.