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This has cropped up on another thread , but the hoary old chestnut , the false belief that Catholics worship idols , needs to be knocked on the head .

We Catholics know what we are doing , and those who hear us need to accept our integrity when we speak on this issue .

The following two videos tell the truth of Catholic practice better than I can do .

Just listen to them , and respect the trustworthness of the one speaking . I agree with all he says wholeheartedly .

Part 1: Catholics Do Not Worship Idols

Part 2: Catholics Do Not Worship Idols

Excellent videos Paulus. He makes it very clear.

"Catholics Do Not Worship Idols"


Amen! As long as you Catholics hold that Jesus is Lord and saviour (which I think you always have) then we're all on the same page, it's the fine print that ruffles some peoples feathers.

WRONG

"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth."

"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;"

It is sin...  Idolatry.  You are practicing Idolatry.  No one will convince me differently.  You have no biblical grounds for your interpretation. NONE.  The practice is sin.

As usual Kensington gets it wrong . 

It comes as no surprise . 

Have a good day . 

As usual kensington ignores everything that has been shown to her and just repeats her opinions.


Her only response is to repeat what has already been refuted.


And then she accuses Catholics of being in denial!

Kensington, who cares what you think? I don't. We all know you come to the Catholic section not for genuine understanding, but to disparage the Latin Rite of Christianity.

https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A2KLqIEi_UxUdmIAlpv7w8QF;_ylu=X3oDMTEwNHIyaWlkBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDdmlkBHZ0aWQDVjE4MQRncG9zAzE2?p=Adoring+Mary&vid=0d2ebd101fbf6b1405d8ebe010751b1a&l=15%3A07&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts3.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DVN.608011578101926426%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DWPYYlYf81uk&tit=Fr+Agnellus+Murphy%3A+%3Cb%3EMary%3C%2Fb%3E%26%2339%3Bs+Heart+Incredibly+Tender&c=13&sigr=11a9avcp3&sigt=11tirg4em&age=0&fr=moz35&tt=b

https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A2KLqICJAE1UrC8A5HD7w8QF;_ylu=X3oDMTEwbWdzaGJhBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDdmlkBHZ0aWQDVjE4MQRncG9zAzE0?p=Adoring+Mary&vid=c304ab111ad34266318b1206cc8fa779&l=14%3A10&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts4.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DVN.607988346626704743%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DbrEaM5EfTUg&tit=ADORE+CALABARZON%2C+PHILIPPINES+2010&c=13&sigr=11adqs8sm&sigt=11212uci3&age=109591534856&b=61&fr=moz35&tt=b

Roman Catholic Mary Worship Gone Wrong!

Its a Miracle Virgin Mary Statue Comes Alive Mother Mary Under Water

Our Lady of Fatima (song)

Immaculate Mary

Immaculate Mary Your Praises we sing with Lyrics

Our Lady of Fatima-Immaculate Mary

A Day With Mary #67: Procession of Our Lady. Westminster Cathedral

Statue of Mary Crying during Procession to Cathedral / extra normal estatua de la Virgen llora

Amo,

Do you have a point to make?

If so, what is it?

Thank you Amo for proving my point that I made using the word of God.  So simple, yet so hard for a Catholic to grasp.

And it's not my opinion Ladonia... it's the WORD OF GOD.  You might read it.  How would you worship and pray if you did not have graven images to help you and to pray to?

That is all IDOLATRY!

And what point did Amo's videos make in your opinion?

He made the same point that Paulus made on the other thread.  That it is idolatry. 

The Second Council of Nicaea (A.D. 787) condemned iconoclasm, which held that the use of images constituted idolatry .


This must be one of those sins that the CC believes will be burned off in Purgatory, so that Catholics can be purified and made ready to go to heaven.  How long will they be staying in purgatory for Idolatry?  Does anyone know?

What is your condemnation of idolotry based on?

You seem to be making assumptions about what is in people's hearts.

On what basis do you know what is in people's hearts?

can you see into people's hearts?

The Second Council of Nicaea (A.D. 787) condemned iconoclasm, which held that the use of images constituted idolatry .

What are you talking about?

Do you even know what iconoclasm is?

Kensington,

Have you even bothered to watch the videos that Paulus posted?

Once again Kensington gets it all wrong . 

Catholics do not worship idols . A simple fact which only the prejudiced cannot grasp .

The iconoclasts will not prevail .

They failed in their error before and they still fail .

4 "You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
5  you shall not bow down to them or serve them;
Two separate commands.
These two commandments are closely related and I doubt that the Numbers of the two were in the original manuscripts. They could be as one.   That is my opinion.  Lets look a verse four   What do you think is be implied when it says "or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath"  Does heaven here mean the kingdom of God. Is Mary in heaven? 
It says make no image of anything in heaven or earth, nor shall you bow to them. Please don't pick heir. This is what it says

You can say you don't worship Idols till the cows come home

Once again Kensington gets it all wrong . 

Catholics do not worship idols . A simple fact which only the prejudiced cannot grasp .

The iconoclasts will not prevail .

They failed in their error before and they still fail .


What we have here is a council that can overthrow Gods word at will to serve their own purposes.
This is the high mindedness of men.

"Catholics do not worship idols"

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

All this graven image and idolatry stuff that is permissible for the Catholics, gives big clues as to why they need a purgatory.  They really do need something to burn off the sins they perpetrate and teach their people to perpetrate daily.  How long will one be staying in Purgatory for Idolatry?  Does anyone know, or does it depend on how many statues you own and bow to daily, weekly or monthly? 

Quote from: Paulus on Sat Oct 25, 2014 - 08:39:43
We Catholics know what we are doing , and those who hear us need to accept our integrity when we speak on this issue .

some do and some find out along the way and leave... I knew while still a Catholic that it was worship... and I  left the RCC.  I do remember as a young girl explaining to a friend that it wasn't worship.  Later I found out it was.

" accept our integrity " - really?  when the CC time after time proclaims/teaches  things to be dogma/doctrine  that are not scriptural?  I most always look up verses Catholics post to support these things - most have absolutely nothing to do with them.  Some might have a word in it that could somehow relate to it (like sky  to cloud) - that doesn't make up a whole non biblical dogma.  integrity? no.
...

Quote from: Paulus on Sat Oct 25, 2014 - 08:39:43
Just listen to them , and respect the trustworthness of the one speaking . I agree with all he says wholeheartedly . 

Why listen?  why respect whoever it is?  I listened to it for many years, now I listen to the Word of God.  You might agree with what the video says - that tells me it says  it isn't worship. But it is.  Now really,  can you tell us the video wasn't made by Catholics? the RCC? 

I don't listen to or watch a video posted on a forum.  If you can't say it and get it across in your own words then that's too bad.

"We Catholics know what we are doing , and those who hear us need to accept our integrity when we speak on this issue"      


   "Let God be true and every man be a liar"(Romans 3:4)...  No thanks, I'll err on the side of God and His word.

Quote from: kensingtonAll this graven image and idolatry stuff that is permissible for the Catholics.

Idolatry is not permissible for Catholics. It is forbidden

Quote from: mcleesWhat we have here is a council that can overthrow Gods word at will to serve their own purposes.
This is the high mindedness of men.

Which of God's words has the Catholic Church overthrown?

Quote from: kensingtonAll this graven image and idolatry stuff that is permissible for the Catholics, gives big clues as to why they need a purgatory.  They really do need something to burn off the sins they perpetrate and teach their people to perpetrate daily.  How long will one be staying in Purgatory for Idolatry?  Does anyone know, or does it depend on how many statues you own and bow to daily, weekly or monthly? 

The Catholic Church teaches against idolatry.

skeeter says : " I don't listen to or watch a video posted on a forum.  If you can't say it and get it across in your own words then that's too bad. "

That's your prerogative . You can watch the video or not watch it .

Come to think of it skeeter , you are a right whinger . You are forever nitpicking . Now you are carping just because I have used a video in my post .

Why are you so negative ?

I choose to post the video because it gets the point across very well . You have a problem with that ? Well it's your problem then .

The video shows quite clearly that Catholics do not worship statues , icons etc . That's the truth . Catholics worship only God . That's the truth .

Quote from: kensington"Let God be true and every man be a liar"(Romans 3:4)...  No thanks, I'll err on the side of God and His word

But you don't believe God's word.

The Sinai Covenant given only to the Jews. It was never given to the Gentiles.

We can see this clearly in Dt. 5:1-9
1 And Moses summoned all Israel, and said to them, "Hear, O Israel, the statutes and the ordinances which I speak in your hearing this day, and you shall learn them and be careful to do them.
2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3 Not with our fathers did the Lord make this covenant, but with us, who are all of us here alive this day.
4 The Lord spoke with you face to face at the mountain, out of the midst of the fire,
5 while I stood between the Lord and you at that time, to declare to you the word of the LORD; for you were afraid because of the fire, and you did not go up into the mountain. He said:
6 "'I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
7 "'You shall have no other gods before me.........

22 "These words the Lord spoke to all your assembly at the mountain out of the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and he added no more. And he wrote them upon two tables of stone, and gave them to me.......

27 Go near, and hear all that the Lord our God will say; and speak to us all that the Lord our God will speak to you; and we will hear and do it.'

This very clearly shows that the Ten Commandments were given the Israelites at Horeb (Sinai) as part of the Covenant Law. The Covenant was made between God and the Israelites with Moses as Covenant Mediator. The Gentiles were not a party to it.

Paul says:
Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called the uncircumcision by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands-- remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. (Eph 2:12)
Gentiles were strangers to the covenants.

God's word also says Jesus was:
designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek.. (Heb 5:10).
Jesus is not a Levitical priest but a priest of the order of Melchizedek

God's word also says:
For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well. (Heb 7:12)
But you claim we are still bound by the Old Law belonoging to the Old Covenant that were are not a party to.


God's word says there is a New Covenant. But you seem not to believe that.

"Let God be true and every man be a liar"(Romans 3:4)...  No thanks, I'll err on the side of God and His word



But you don't believe God's word.

The Sinai Covenant given only to the Jews. It was never given to the Gentiles.

We can see this clearly in Dt. 5:1-9
1 And Moses summoned all Israel, and said to them, "Hear, O Israel, the statutes and the ordinances which I speak in your hearing this day, and you shall learn them and be careful to do them.
2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3 Not with our fathers did the Lord make this covenant, but with us, who are all of us here alive this day.
4 The Lord spoke with you face to face at the mountain, out of the midst of the fire,
5 while I stood between the Lord and you at that time, to declare to you the word of the LORD; for you were afraid because of the fire, and you did not go up into the mountain. He said:
6 "'I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
7 "'You shall have no other gods before me.........

22 "These words the Lord spoke to all your assembly at the mountain out of the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and he added no more. And he wrote them upon two tables of stone, and gave them to me.......

27 Go near, and hear all that the Lord our God will say; and speak to us all that the Lord our God will speak to you; and we will hear and do it.'

This very clearly shows that the Ten Commandments were given the Israelites at Horeb (Sinai) as part of the Covenant Law. The Covenant was made between God and the Israelites with Moses as Covenant Mediator. The Gentiles were not a party to it.

Paul says:
Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called the uncircumcision by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands-- remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. (Eph 2:12)
Gentiles were strangers to the covenants.

God's word also says Jesus was:
designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek.. (Heb 5:10).
Jesus is not a Levitical priest but a priest of the order of Melchizedek

God's word also says:
For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well. (Heb 7:12)
But you claim we are still bound by the Old Law belonoging to the Old Covenant that were are not a party to.


God's word says there is a New Covenant. But you seem not to believe that.


It sounds like this record is playing over and over.  I am going to ask one more time, Do you believe the Ten Commandments is valid to day for all believers Yes or no?  If I were to go out and take a pole of Catholics and ask this question How many would say yes?  %50%   80%    100%  What do you think?

Quote from: mclees
It sounds like this record is playing over and over

The record is playing over and over because people here, just like you, will not engage with the argument.

The argument above is based on scripture and you cannot refute it because it's true. Your problem is that you don't like it being true.

Quote from: mclees
I am going to ask one more time,

One more time? This is the first time.

Quote from: mclees
Do you believe the Ten Commandments is valid to day for all believers Yes or no? 
If I were to go out and take a pole of Catholics and ask this question How many would say yes?  %50%   80%    100%  What do you think?

When you respond to the points I raised, and not just avoid them, I will answer that.

Earlier you stated:

Quote from: mcleesWhat we have here is a council that can overthrow Gods word at will to serve their own purposes.
This is the high mindedness of men.

And I asked:
"Which of God's words has the Catholic Church overthrown?"
I'm still waiting for an answer

The Israelites had a similar situation as the Catholics have.
One day they decided to make themselves a golden calf. So they got some gold together and had the high priest carve one for them.
When the high priest was done, he said "Ok guys, tomorrow we celebrate finishing the golden calf and we have a feast for the Lord".

So the thing was that all the Israelites could bend their knee for the golden calf...but as long as it was a worship to God, everything supposedly was dandy.
The next day 3000 men were killed by instruction of God.

See, contrary to what the Catholic Church teaches, God does not want to share His place.

The command in the Ten Commandments states this:
"You shall not bow down to them OR serve them..."

Catholics may say "but we do not worship statues"...that's hardly the point. The commandment states that one is not even allowed to bow down to them.
The command does not say "not bow down AND serve them" it states "not bow down OR serve them".
This is not about worshiping statues...it's about bowing down to them. Something Catholics do.

Now the Douay Rheims translation translates Exodus 20:5 as follows: "Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them"
This is an obvious and mistranslation on purpose from the Hebrew word that expresses prostration, bowing down, falling down etc.

In the original scripture, the Ten Commandments are numbered clearly.
The Catholic Church however took command #2 and consolidated it with command #1.
As to make up for the shortfall, they split up command #10, as to arrive at a total on 10 again.

So the church that accuses Protestants from changing the Old Testament by removing books, allows itself to go into that same Old Testament (which they proudly proclaim to have made canon) and make changes to the text.

The Catholic Church defends their change of the numbering of the Ten Commandments, because Augustine did so too.
But here is what Augustine said about idolatry in the church:

"Does anyone worship or pray with his eyes fixed on the image, without being persuaded that the image is hearing his petition and without hoping that it will give him what he wants? Probably not. So thoroughly entangled do people become in such superstitions that they often turn their backs on the real sun and pour out their prayers to the statue they call Sun;..."

And

"It may be objected that we ourselves have many vessels and other accessories made of similar metals, which we use in the celebration of the sacraments. They are consecrated to divine service and are called holy in honor of him who is worshipped through their use for our salvation. Such vessels and implements are obviously the work of human hands: what else could they be? But do they have mouths that will never speak, or eyes that will never see? And does the fact that we make use of them to offer our supplications to God mean that we are begging anything from them? Of course not.

The principal cause of insane, blasphemous idolatry is this: a form resembling that of a living person- a form that by its lifelike appearance seems to demand worship- is more powerfully persuasive to the emotions of its wretched suppliants than the plain fact that it is not alive and ought to be scorned by anyone who is. The evidence of mouths, eyes, ears, nostrils, hands, and feet in the idols has more power to lead an unhappy soul astray than the evident inability on their part to speak, see, hear, smell, handle things, or walk has power to bring such a soul back to the truth."


There just is so much contradiction in the Catholic Church when it comes to veneration of saints and statues.
But most surprisingly of all...theologically the Catholic Church wants us to believe that they don't really need statues.
Yet, almost every empty corner in church and home are stuffed with statues and icons of saints. A Bible however is hard to find.

mclees8, do you keep the sabbath?

AVZ says : " Yet, almost every empty corner in church and home are stuffed with statues and icons of saints. A Bible however is hard to find. "

How many Catholic churches have you been in where almost every empty corner is stuffed with statues and icons of saints , with a Bible being hard to find ?

How many Catholic homes  have you been in where almost every empty corner is stuffed with statues and icons of saints , with a Bible being hard to find ?

You are talking claptrap .

You know next to nothing of the Catholic usage of statues and saints . If you did you would soon realise that Catholics do not worship statues and idols .

Do any of our good friends here worship the statue of Abe Lincoln in D.C. that their tax dollars help maintain? Or is that statue just a visible reminder of the man who led the fight to keep the union together?

Quote from: Quote=AVZ
The Israelites had a similar situation as the Catholics have.
One day they decided to make themselves a golden calf. So they got some gold together and had the high priest carve one for them.
When the high priest was done, he said "Ok guys, tomorrow we celebrate finishing the golden calf and we have a feast for the Lord".

So the thing was that all the Israelites could bend their knee for the golden calf...but as long as it was a worship to God, everything supposedly was dandy.
The next day 3000 men were killed by instruction of God.

See, contrary to what the Catholic Church teaches, God does not want to share His place.

The command in the Ten Commandments states this:
"You shall not bow down to them OR serve them..."

Catholics may say "but we do not worship statues"...that's hardly the point. The commandment states that one is not even allowed to bow down to them.
The command does not say "not bow down AND serve them" it states "not bow down OR serve them".
This is not about worshiping statues...it's about bowing down to them. Something Catholics do.

Now the Douay Rheims translation translates Exodus 20:5 as follows: "Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them"
This is an obvious and mistranslation on purpose from the Hebrew word that expresses prostration, bowing down, falling down etc.

I've been through this several times.

The Sinai Covenant and all its laws were given by God to the Israelites.
They were never given to the Gentiles.

It was a Covenant between God and the Israelites.

You are just recycling discredit arguments

Quote from: AVZ
In the original scripture, the Ten Commandments are numbered clearly. 

No they were not. And incidentally Ex 20:3-6 is treated as one commandment by the Jews – just as Catholics do. (see http://www.jewfaq.org/10.htm & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments

Quote from: AVZ
The Catholic Church however took command #2 and consolidated it with command #1.
As to make up for the shortfall, they split up command #10, as to arrive at a total on 10 again.

No it didn't. You are just completely wrong. See above

Quote from: AVZ
So the church that accuses Protestants from changing the Old Testament by removing books, allows itself to go into that same Old Testament (which they proudly proclaim to have made canon) and make changes to the text.

Wrong again

Quote from: AVZ
The Catholic Church defends their change of the numbering of the Ten Commandments, because Augustine did so too.

No it doesn't and it hasn't changed the numbering

Quote from: AVZ
There just is so much contradiction in the Catholic Church when it comes to veneration of saints and statues.

No there isn't

Do any of our good friends here worship the statue of Abe Lincoln in D.C. that their tax dollars help maintain? Or is that statue just a visible reminder of the man who led the fight to keep the union together?

Have you ever seen anyone on their knees in front of it praying?  Would you call it idolatry if they did ?