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Christians should have a devotion to Mary because, as the mother of our savior, she deserves our love and respect.  Christ made her our mother when He died on the cross, and in life she had the greatest influence with Him.  It is rational to think that, even after death, she would still have an enormous influence on Him, which is why it is reasonable to send our petitions to her.  Thoughts?

Nope, Mary was a human being capable of sinning as each of us are.
She was chosen by God because of her faith, and deserves due recognition for her obedience but other than that there are no devotions due.

Quote from: Alan on Tue Dec 09, 2014 - 22:16:32
Nope, Mary was a human being capable of sinning as each of us are.
She was chosen by God because of her faith, and deserves due recognition for her obedience but other than that there are no devotions due.

Yes and Amen. Its entirely unbiblical and wrong to pray to anyone but God through Jesus.  She has no influence on Him any more than anyone else.

Quote from: Helenkeller on Tue Dec 09, 2014 - 20:55:10
Christians should have a devotion to Mary because, as the mother of our savior, she deserves our love and respect.  Christ made her our mother when He died on the cross, and in life she had the greatest influence with Him.  It is rational to think that, even after death, she would still have an enormous influence on Him, which is why it is reasonable to send our petitions to her.  Thoughts?

I think its better to just stick to worship, love and respect to God the Father.  It was He that Jesus obeyed, it was His will Christ submitted to and Him who raised Christ from the dead.

Mary was chosen to be the vehicle that carried Christ, but a human only.  To exalt her is error.

There have been so many debates about this here... 

I believe we should have respect for what she was called to do.  Devotion?  No.  We should devote our lives to serving Christ.  Mary is my sister in the Lord, I will be happy to meet her and talk to her about child raising in Heaven.  I owe her no devotion or any kind for what Jesus did for me.  He alone is worthy to be praised. He alone died for my sins and He alone merits my devotion. 

It is more rational to think that He has an eternal influence on her life.  He being the Son of God and she being a human being who He saved on the cross.

Quote from: Helenkeller on Tue Dec 09, 2014 - 20:55:10
Christians should have a devotion to Mary because, as the mother of our savior, she deserves our love and respect.  Christ made her our mother when He died on the cross, and in life she had the greatest influence with Him.  It is rational to think that, even after death, she would still have an enormous influence on Him, which is why it is reasonable to send our petitions to her.  Thoughts?

What makes you think Mary had an ounce of influence on Jesus during His life on earth?
The Bible teaches quite the opposite...Mary and Joseph set off to go back to Nazareth...and Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem.
I am more inclined to think that Jesus did His own thing, and instead would had had more influence on His parents than vice-versa.

It is not rational at all to think that Mary (or any other saint) would have any influence whatsoever on Jesus.
As if Jesus needs advice from mortals or made His mother His PA in heaven.

Honored and respected? Absolutely YES.

Worshiped, prayed to, asked to influence the Lord on our behalf? Absolutely NOT.

We are instructed to present our requests DIRECTLY to God the Father, in the name of; i.e. authorized by, the Son.

We have no other prayer instructions.

Trying to get a saint, or Mary, or even Jesus, to get God the Father to change his mind on something is manipulative and tries to make us greater than God.

Furthermore to Maryology, the rhema word is arrived at once we understand that God chose a plain and ordinary woman (not to discount Mary's faith or obedience to the Lord) to give birth to a child that was 100% human, the 100% divine nature of Christ was not received via Mary but from God alone. The 100% humanity of Christ was necessary to relate to those who believed in Him and His teachings. Exalting Mary above anything but an ordinary woman detracts from the humanity part of Christ, thus detracting from what Christ purposed to do in His time on earth, He was sent in the midst of where we were at! 

First, I think it's important to clarify.  I do not mean "worship."  By having a devotion, I mean love, honor, respect, and, yes, pray to her.  No, Mary is not God.  However, she has compassion for us, and wants to assist us in our relationship with her son.  She prays for us in the same way that a faithful pastor would pray for his congregation. 
Also, it is very clear that Mary had influence on Jesus at the Wedding Feast at Cana: "On the third day there was a wedding in Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there... When the wine ran short Mary said to Him, "They have no wine." Jesus said to her, "Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come."His mother told the servers, "Do whatever He tells you."  (John 2:1-11) We all know what happened next.  Jesus obeyed her.  As He was dying on the cross, one of his last concerns was for her: "But standing by the cross of Jesus were His mother, and His mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26When Jesus then saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, "Woman, behold, your son!" 27Then He said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" From that hour the disciple took her into his own household."
Also, in response to Alan, in the Book of Timothy, it is written: I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone ...This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4. who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. (Tim. 2:1-4) The passage also indicates that it helps to bring them to salvation and knowledge of truth. 

Quote from: Helenkeller on Wed Dec 10, 2014 - 19:38:21
First, I think it's important to clarify.  I do not mean "worship."  By having a devotion, I mean love, honor, respect, and, yes, pray to her.  No, Mary is not God.  However, she has compassion for us, and wants to assist us in our relationship with her son.  She prays for us in the same way that a faithful pastor would pray for his congregation.

Why do we need *her* to pray when the scriptures tell us that the Holy Spirit groans on our behalf? 

Quote
Also, it is very clear that Mary had influence on Jesus at the Wedding Feast at Cana: "On the third day there was a wedding in Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there... When the wine ran short Mary said to Him, "They have no wine." Jesus said to her, "Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come."His mother told the servers, "Do whatever He tells you."  (John 2:1-11) We all know what happened next.  Jesus obeyed her.

He obeyed her because it didn't conflict with the mission of God.   His whole life was being about His Father's business, not His mother's.  This was one small act of obedience and not one that should trump the call on His life that was God's or to elevate Mary to some sort of object we pray to.  Though, I do look forward to the thought that someday in Heaven I might get to enjoy a chat with her about mothering.

QuoteAs He was dying on the cross, one of his last concerns was for her: "But standing by the cross of Jesus were His mother, and His mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26When Jesus then saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, "Woman, behold, your son!" 27Then He said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" From that hour the disciple took her into his own household."

He was a good Son.  She was obviously a good mother and He wanted her to know He was caring for her and loved her.

At least the OP didn't mention the "virgin Mary." I always get a kick out of that one as the Holy Bible is perfectly clear insomuch that Mary and Joseph had children after knowing each other sexually, and repeatedly, on their bed of marriage.

There is one mediator between Jehovah and man, the Man Christ Jesus.

Could you clarify that?  The Bible is not clear that Mary had more children.  The Bible, in fact, never says anything of the sort.  It says that Joseph took her into his home and as his wife, but never anything about children after Jesus. 

Yes, I read that in the Book of Timothy. :) But it doesn't actually say that God ONLY wants us to communicate with Jesus.  Did you see what I said about Timothy 2:1-4?  Timothy says this: I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone ...This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4. who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
When we pray for one another, and when we pray to Mary\she prays for us, we are participating in the mediation, not taking the place of the mediator.
I totally agree Jesus is the mediator. But I think that Christians in heaven, with Christ for eternity, are  much more aware of who Christ is than we are, who have yet to see his face, no matter how good our prayer lives our. The Bible says that he has helpers that participate in his ministry by his invitation. I believe he has invited Christians on both sides of heaven to do that. When a saint enters into the joy of their Master, they are "put in charge of many things" (Mat. 25:21)

Do we need her to pray?  No.  Should we want her to pray? Yes.  As the mother of God, and one who has lived with Christ in heaven for almost 2000 years, I would think she knows Christ infinitely better than we do, and we should value her help and support. 

The fact is that when speaking about Jesus, the bible refers to Him as "God's ONLY begotten son"... and yet when speaking to Him concerning Mary, it says .. "She brought forth her "First born son"... why would there need to be that clarification as to "First born son" if there were not more sons, as in God only having one son?

Because, He was her First and she had more, and God only had one.  2+2=4  simple deduction.

But, I would as and seek clarification as to why there is NO Joseph devotion?  God purposely chose Joseph to be the earthly Father of Joseph, but we hear no Christmas songs or hymn's or tons of statues for people to pray to of Joseph. The Angel Garriel spoke to him himself.  Matthew 1:20. How amazing that must have been.  What a blessing to be called on to be the one who taught Jesus to be a Carpenter.  His own earthly trade. Yet, He is not on the Rosary... why do you dismiss the valuable contribution to Jesus' life that Joseph made. But, continue to be devoted to (Worship) Mary. Yes, it is worship... we are all clear that you say it's not worship, and your church claim's it's not worship... but the activities and devotion that you give to her by their very definition are indeed worship.  She was a human being. She was not God, or part of the Godhead, she is not a Queen or a mediator between Jesus and us. HE alone is the mediator between us and God.

I know you probably sincerely believe what you say, but the truth is, you are sincerely wrong.

Quote from: Helenkeller on Wed Dec 10, 2014 - 19:38:21
First, I think it's important to clarify.  I do not mean "worship."  By having a devotion, I mean love, honor, respect, and, yes, pray to her.  No, Mary is not God.  However, she has compassion for us, and wants to assist us in our relationship with her son.  She prays for us in the same way that a faithful pastor would pray for his congregation. 
Also, it is very clear that Mary had influence on Jesus at the Wedding Feast at Cana: "On the third day there was a wedding in Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there... When the wine ran short Mary said to Him, "They have no wine." Jesus said to her, "Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come."His mother told the servers, "Do whatever He tells you."  (John 2:1-11) We all know what happened next.  Jesus obeyed her.  As He was dying on the cross, one of his last concerns was for her: "But standing by the cross of Jesus were His mother, and His mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26When Jesus then saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He said to His mother, "Woman, behold, your son!" 27Then He said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" From that hour the disciple took her into his own household."
Also, in response to Alan, in the Book of Timothy, it is written: I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone ...This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4. who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. (Tim. 2:1-4) The passage also indicates that it helps to bring them to salvation and knowledge of truth.

No we are not to pray to her, we are to pray to God through Jesus as God tells us to. She has no more power or influence than any other person who has died, and she, like them, awaits the return of her saviour. Do you want to obey God or your church? Its your choice. 

Quote from: Peace Warrior on Wed Dec 10, 2014 - 19:49:58
At least the OP didn't mention the "virgin Mary." I always get a kick out of that one as the Holy Bible is perfectly clear insomuch that Mary and Joseph had children after knowing each other sexually, and repeatedly, on their bed of marriage.

Quote from: Helenkeller on Wed Dec 10, 2014 - 20:01:37
Could you clarify that?  The Bible is not clear that Mary had more children.  The Bible, in fact, never says anything of the sort.  It says that Joseph took her into his home and as his wife, but never anything about children after Jesus.

So then, where in the Bible does it say that Mary assumed to heaven and should be prayed to?

Quote from: Helenkeller on Wed Dec 10, 2014 - 20:10:54
Yes, I read that in the Book of Timothy. :) But it doesn't actually say that God ONLY wants us to communicate with Jesus.  Did you see what I said about Timothy 2:1-4?  Timothy says this: I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone ...This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4. who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
When we pray for one another, and when we pray to Mary\she prays for us, we are participating in the mediation, not taking the place of the mediator.
I totally agree Jesus is the mediator. But I think that Christians in heaven, with Christ for eternity, are  much more aware of who Christ is than we are, who have yet to see his face, no matter how good our prayer lives our. The Bible says that he has helpers that participate in his ministry by his invitation. I believe he has invited Christians on both sides of heaven to do that. When a saint enters into the joy of their Master, they are "put in charge of many things" (Mat. 25:21)

Praying/talking/communicating with any human being who has died is strictly forbidden in the Bible,  and its a very dangerous practice that can lead to contact with evil spirits. 

Quote from: Helenkeller on Wed Dec 10, 2014 - 20:01:37
Could you clarify that?  The Bible is not clear that Mary had more children.  The Bible, in fact, never says anything of the sort.  It says that Joseph took her into his home and as his wife, but never anything about children after Jesus.

Mary clearly had more children and why shouldnt she? She was Josephs wife and had sex with him as a good and godly wife is supposed to.  Jesus was her firstborn son. Jesus had brothers. 

Quote from: Peace Warrior on Wed Dec 10, 2014 - 19:49:58
At least the OP didn't mention the "virgin Mary." I always get a kick out of that one as the Holy Bible is perfectly clear insomuch that Mary and Joseph had children after knowing each other sexually, and repeatedly, on their bed of marriage.

In another thread on this board, Catholics are running amok over the fact that proper Christians (except clergy) must have sex and procreate in accordance to Gods will.
Yet Joseph and Mary were excluded from that will somehow, and the first "Pope" was a married man with children.

Quote from: Helenkeller on Wed Dec 10, 2014 - 20:01:37
Could you clarify that?  The Bible is not clear that Mary had more children.  The Bible, in fact, never says anything of the sort.  It says that Joseph took her into his home and as his wife, but never anything about children after Jesus.

But...Married couples must ALWAYS be open to children.  It is a covenant between a man and a woman to create children and to bring themselves and those children together...at least that is what you said in another thread.

So, if she didn't have any more children, she wasn't falling into the "must" of marriage and, according to this logic, refusing God's will for her life. 

Quote from: MeMyself on Wed Dec 10, 2014 - 23:07:22

Quote from: Helenkeller on Wed Dec 10, 2014 - 20:01:37
Could you clarify that?  The Bible is not clear that Mary had more children.  The Bible, in fact, never says anything of the sort.  It says that Joseph took her into his home and as his wife, but never anything about children after Jesus.

But...Married couples must ALWAYS be open to children.  It is a covenant between a man and a woman to create children and to bring themselves and those children together...at least that is what you said in another thread.

So, if she didn't have any more children, she wasn't falling into the "must" of marriage and, according to this logic, refusing God's will for her life. 

Also she would be a disobedient and cruel wife if she refused sex with her God given husband. 

I agree, being who she was, she would not have gone against God's word and or His plan for marriage.  She and Joseph would have had more children.  They were called as humans to do human things for God.  Be a wife, be a husband, be parents.  Besides, after your "Firstborn"... comes the "Second born".. I'm convinced they had children... not just a child. They were human examples of living as servants to God. They were not deity. 

Quote from: kensingtonwhy would there need to be that clarification as to "First born son" if there were not more sons, as in God only having one son?

It is the phrase that is important and refers to these scriptures:

Deuteronomy 15:19  "You shall consecrate to the Lord your God all the firstborn males that are born of your herd and of your flock; you shall not work with the firstborn of your herd, nor shear the firstborn of your flock.

Exodus 13:12  you shall devote to the Lord the first offspring of every womb, and the first offspring of every beast that you own; the males belong to the Lord.

Numbers 18:15  Every first issue of the womb of all flesh, whether man or animal, which they offer to the Lord, shall be yours; nevertheless the firstborn of man you shall surely redeem, and the firstborn of unclean animals you shall redeem.

It was an indicator of His status as being devoted wholey to the Lord.  It had NOTHING to do with whether there were other children or not.

I think that it's both Dave W.  It's clear that if it is the "First Born" there is indeed going to be more.  God always planned for mankind to procreate, but He called that first born of the womb to belong to Him. 

There would be no need for the clarification between, First born and Only born if there were not going to be more.  The Only born would be the First born.  Yes, God called for the First Born to belong to Him, but He used the clarification because He had also planned in creation for there to be more than one. 

Kensington, while I understand your argument, the fact that they call Jesus her First Born Son does not indicate that there were more children. The First Born son was significant then because that was the child that would inherit the father's money and, usually, his trade, and was usually named after the  father, etc.  This child, as the first child the parents ever had, was their pride and joy, as well as showing the fertility of the mother, which brought the couple and the couple's families great joy. 
Have you ever heard of the Protoevangelium of James?  I would definitely recommend it.  It was written about sixty years after the conclusion of Mary's life.  It explains more fully the circumstances of Mary's life, which are left mostly in the dark by the Bible.  To save you reading, I'll just sum up: the Protoevangelium records that when Mary's birth was prophesied, her mother, St. Anne, vowed that she would devote Mary God's service, just like Samuel had been by his mother (1 Sam. 1:11). So Mary would serve God in the temple as woman had been doing for centuries, and as Anna (the prophetess who sees Jesus when He is presented in the temple) was doing when Jesus was presented(Luke 2:36–37).  Mary lived a life of continual, devoted service to the Lord at the Temple, which meant that she was vowed to a life of perpetual virginity and would not be able to live the ordinary life of a child-rearing mother .
However, due to considerations of ceremonial cleanliness, it was eventually necessary for Mary, a consecrated "virgin of the Lord," to have a guardian or protector who would respect her vow of virginity. Thus, according to the Protoevangelium, Joseph, an elderly widower who already had children, was chosen to be her spouse. (This would also explain why Joseph was apparently dead by the time of Jesus' adult ministry, since he does not appear during it in the gospels, and since Mary is entrusted to John, rather than to her husband Joseph, at the crucifixion).
According to the Protoevangelium, Joseph was required to regard Mary's vow of virginity with the utmost respect. The gravity of his responsibility as the guardian of a virgin was indicated by the fact that, when she was discovered to be with child, he had to answer to the Temple authorities, who thought him guilty of defiling a virgin of the Lord. Mary was also accused of having forsaken the Lord by breaking her vow.
So no, Kensington, she would not have had any more children after that. 

Also, I agree that Joseph was a holy man.  However, he was not the biological father of Jesus, and so does not have the import that Mary does, as the mother of the son of God, who agreed to take on Him and the sufferings that would result from being his mother, and who carried the son of God in her womb.  The sufferings she underwent for Him during his passion alone, would merit such devotion, but knowing, while she nursed Him and tucked Him in at night, the agonies that He would have to endure would have broken her heart every day. 

Also, I explained the mediator issue in my previous comments.  Check them out. :)

It's not, actually! :) Did you see my quote from Timothy?  Also, see Revelation 5:8, where John describes the saints offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."
Certainly, calling on evil spirits is forbidden and should be forbidden.  I recall the passage in which Saul brings Samuel back from the dead using witchcraft.  But this is not witch craft, or calling them back to life.  It is calling on them from below, asking for their help and guidance.  For example, in the Bible, God had Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3). What God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits. "There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed" (Deut. 18:10–15).   Here, God indicates that we may not conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; we are to look to God's prophets instead. So we are NOT to hold a seance. I'm sure that you can discern the HUGE qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother's grave, "Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I'm having a real problem right now."  One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one's behalf.
Does that make sense?

Quote from: Helenkeller on Thu Dec 11, 2014 - 18:42:54
It's not, actually! :) Did you see my quote from Timothy?  Also, see Revelation 5:8, where John describes the saints offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."
Certainly, calling on evil spirits is forbidden and should be forbidden.  I recall the passage in which Saul brings Samuel back from the dead using witchcraft.  But this is not witch craft, or calling them back to life.  It is calling on them from below, asking for their help and guidance.  For example, in the Bible, God had Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3). What God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits. "There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed" (Deut. 18:10–15).   Here, God indicates that we may not conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; we are to look to God's prophets instead. So we are NOT to hold a seance. I'm sure that you can discern the HUGE qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother's grave, "Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I'm having a real problem right now."  One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one's behalf.
Does that make sense?

It does not make sense since it is a) unscriptural and b) unnecessary.

Herein lies the crux of your doctrinal fallacy of looking to the catholic church and or Mary, but not solely to Jesus Christ, He is the Word made flesh. Only Jesus' Blood was found to be a sufficient sacrifice for our sins. In understanding this simple but precious Truth, the Word of the Lord is perfectly clear in commanding that we should look unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of the Bride's faith.


I am not singularly bashing or condemning Catholicism as of a surety I will bash any denomination that tries to separates the ministers from Christ's Bride.  Just as Jehovah has no grandchildren, so too Christ's church has no "laity." There is no hierarchy beyond a personal gifting no different than in any other chosen career. (e.g., Some people makes great lawyers, but other people make great chefs.) So knowing, there are teachers, prophets, evangelists, teachers, deacons et cetera and no one of these offices is any higher or more important to the Christ's Bride than the other. The holder of onmje or more of these offices has no right to lord his/her self over others.

You're also forgetting that Mary herself died, and to this day Mary, as old bones, is in her grave. Likewise, all those that were Popes, or Cardinals, or Priests, or Nuns, or altar boys and have passed away are also in their graves as well. So knowing, why then should the Bride of Christ pray to a dead Mary when we have a living Saviour whom willingly died in our place and EVER LIVES to intercede to Jehovah on our behalf? Why then should the Bride of Christ pray to a dead "saint" when we have a living Saviour whom willingly died in our place and EVER LIVES to intercede to Jehovah on our behalf?

As for me, I distrust any denomination, make that distrust even any individual fellowship that would prop up a certain minister or ministers to be separated from the "laity." Pompous, religious, and egotistical jackasses have set up for themselves a headship over others and are using 'religionism' and religious doctrines to kowtow people into thinking these self same jackasses are somehow more knowledgeable or more spiritual than the Bride of Christ.

The genesis of Catholicism was the early 4th century. Constantine's ecumenical movement in the early 4th century beget the first Catholic denomination. Constantine created an amalgamation of different and differing spiritual beliefs, which included some from Christianity. (BTW- They were called Christian first in Antioch, and this was during the first century not long after Jesus' resurrection and Pentecost.)

Mathew 12 v 47 and Mark 6 v 3. Pretty clear Mary had other children.

Mathew 12 v 47 and Mark 6 v 3. Pretty clear Mary had other children.

True story. 

Protoevangelium of James?  Surely you know that the Catholic Church rejects and condemns this work and calls it fiction.   
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