Christian Forums

Catholica, I wasn't asking you.

Also, you came right in to clarify for yourself that you thought that the church he speaks of is the Catholic Church. Did you not?  He clearly said he did not mean the Catholic church persey...  or any denom. 

Yet, you felt the need to clarify who is and who isn't of that statement....  It makes me wonder... that is all.  Many may claim theirs is the group that is the church, but I just wonder... are they really.  And I asked, is it wrong to wonder. 

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 16:54:07

Quote from: kensington on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 16:36:21
God has only one church. It does not have a title as roman catholic or anglican, baptist, pentecostal,
church of christ, or any other name.
His Church are those that are born and led by the Spirit of God. Christ is the Head of the Church. It is the Holy Spirit that appoints overseers  (Acts 20 , 28)
It is Christ who gives gifts to His Church (Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers, Ephesians 4, 11-12) to equip the saints for the work of ministry.
His authority is by the Spirit not by human institutions with different labels.
It is Christ who anoints His servants to have authority and power in His Church.


Amen to that!  Amen and Amen!
Is it wrong do you think, to question or wonder if some religions or denominations fall under this statement of truth?   

I think we should all need to be questioning and searching things all the time. For example, many like the JW's and the Mormons believe they are part of His church, in fact they think they ARE His church(which is one way of telling they are deceived).

Sounds like you have two definitions of "church" that you use at different times. 

What makes you think that spirit-filled Mormon are not his church?  After all, it is Christ who gives gifts to His Church and the Holy Spirit that appoints overseers, and His authority is by the Spirit not by human institutions with different labels, like "Mormonism"  (I thought that's what we are saying here, maybe you are changing your mind?)

Quote from: kensington on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 16:58:09
Catholica, I wasn't asking you.

In fact, you weren't asking anyone by name.  I was just the first to respond.  We are all agreeing here.

Quote from: kensington on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 16:58:09
Also, you came right in to clarify for yourself that you thought that the church he speaks of is the Catholic Church. Did you not?  He clearly said he did not mean the Catholic church persey...  or any denom.

There is only one church after all, which needs no name, and it consists of those persons united in the body of Christ, who are under leaders selected by the Holy Spirit.

QuoteYet, you felt the need to clarify who is and who isn't of that statement....  It makes me wonder... that is all.  Many may claim theirs is the group that is the church, but I just wonder... are they really.  And I asked, is it wrong to wonder.

If you know the statement is true, then it would be a contradiction to wonder.  Either it's true or it's not.  If it's true then denomination name is meaningless, and there is no need to wonder, am I right?

ANy one church/denomination that claims they its only though their church that you can be saved, or that theirs is the  only 'true' church, is both entirely unbiblical, and also completely deceived. I dont think that God would be at all happy with any church/organisation that tried to exclude millions of His precious children, and tell them they arent saved. 

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 17:03:13
ANy one church/denomination that claims they its only though their church that you can be saved, or that theirs is the  only 'true' church, is both entirely unbiblical, and also completely deceived. I dont think that God would be at all happy with any church/organisation that tried to exclude millions of His precious children, and tell them they arent saved. 

But if they are spirit-filled, then no matter what their church teaches, they are Christian, right?  So a spirit-filled "Mormon" is really just another brethren, and it is wrong for you to tell them that they are deceived, especially since they are infilled by the Holy Spirit.

I assume that you aren't saying that your "church of all believers" is saying that his precious Mormon children are excluded and not saved.  God wouldn't be at all happy with you saying that.

Quote from: Catholica on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 17:01:57

Quote from: kensington on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 16:58:09
Catholica, I wasn't asking you.

In fact, you weren't asking anyone by name.  I was just the first to respond.  We are all agreeing here.

Quote from: kensington on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 16:58:09
Also, you came right in to clarify for yourself that you thought that the church he speaks of is the Catholic Church. Did you not?  He clearly said he did not mean the Catholic church persey...  or any denom.

There is only one church after all, which needs no name, and it consists of those persons united in the body of Christ, who are under leaders selected by the Holy Spirit.

QuoteYet, you felt the need to clarify who is and who isn't of that statement....  It makes me wonder... that is all.  Many may claim theirs is the group that is the church, but I just wonder... are they really.  And I asked, is it wrong to wonder.

If you know the statement is true, then it would be a contradiction to wonder.  Either it's true or it's not.  If it's true then denomination name is meaningless, and there is no need to wonder, am I right?

However those outside the RC church dont believe that the pope or other such leaders were selected by the Holy Spirit, or that they are in anyway leaders of God's church on earth. Jesus alone is the head of His church/body, we are ALL parts of His body. 

In fact, you weren't asking anyone by name.  I was just the first to respond.  We are all agreeing here.

Wait a minute...  did I not quote his statement, and ask my question?

Usually around here, that means you are asking the person who made the statement you are asking about.  Does it not? 

Just to clarify... I quoted him and asked him.   

Quote from: Catholica on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 17:06:38

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 17:03:13
ANy one church/denomination that claims they its only though their church that you can be saved, or that theirs is the  only 'true' church, is both entirely unbiblical, and also completely deceived. I dont think that God would be at all happy with any church/organisation that tried to exclude millions of His precious children, and tell them they arent saved. 

But if they are spirit-filled, then no matter what their church teaches, they are Christian, right?  So a spirit-filled "Mormon" is really just another brethren, and it is wrong for you to tell them that they are deceived, especially since they are infilled by the Holy Spirit.

Who says they are Holy Spirit filled?

God has only one church. It does not have a title as roman catholic or anglican, baptist, pentecostal,
church of christ, or any other name.
His Church are those that are born and led by the Spirit of God. Christ is the Head of the Church. It is the Holy Spirit that appoints overseers  (Acts 20 , 28)
It is Christ who gives gifts to His Church (Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers, Ephesians 4, 11-12) to equip the saints for the work of ministry.
His authority is by the Spirit not by human institutions with different labels.
It is Christ who anoints His servants to have authority and power in His Church.

What I should have said was that YES this is the TRUE standard by which we can measure those bodies, denoms. and religions who claim that they are The Church ...  when we wonder.   Thanks!! 

Quote from: kensington on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 17:18:25
God has only one church. It does not have a title as roman catholic or anglican, baptist, pentecostal,
church of christ, or any other name.
His Church are those that are born and led by the Spirit of God. Christ is the Head of the Church. It is the Holy Spirit that appoints overseers  (Acts 20 , 28)
It is Christ who gives gifts to His Church (Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers, Ephesians 4, 11-12) to equip the saints for the work of ministry.
His authority is by the Spirit not by human institutions with different labels.
It is Christ who anoints His servants to have authority and power in His Church.

What I should have said was that YES this is the TRUE standard by which we can measure those bodies, denoms. and religions who claim that they are The Church ...  when we wonder.   Thanks!! 

Yes. I so love going to meetings where there are believers from loads of different churches. Its Gods family. 

Quote from: kensington on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 16:36:21
God has only one church. It does not have a title as roman catholic or anglican, baptist, pentecostal,
church of christ, or any other name.
His Church are those that are born and led by the Spirit of God. Christ is the Head of the Church. It is the Holy Spirit that appoints overseers  (Acts 20 , 28)
It is Christ who gives gifts to His Church (Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers, Ephesians 4, 11-12) to equip the saints for the work of ministry.
His authority is by the Spirit not by human institutions with different labels.
It is Christ who anoints His servants to have authority and power in His Church.


Amen to that!  Amen and Amen!
Is it wrong do you think, to question or wonder if some religions or denominations fall under this statement of truth?   

My Lord established one Church only, those that are born and led of the Spirit of God belong to it.
It will recognize Christ as its Head and no one else. 
It will not be religious as Christ came to deliver it from man made religions and let His Church walk in freedom
by His Holy Spirit. Some members can be found in man made religious organization and a lot of them without.

His Church is His body and He is the Head of the body. To give a human example.....
Our natural physical body consists of all different parts, but there is no part of the physical body that
can move on its own unless it is instructed to do so by the brain, the head.

So for the body of Christ (Church) to function properly,  we all as members have to be led by the head.
What religion or denominations are doing is trying to make every one the same (trying to make a pinky
into a thump), which will never work.
We need to seek God to find our place in the body and be obedient as Christ leads us.

Just think if every part of a hand got its direction from the Head, how great a work it can do instead of
wasting our time trying to change each other to be like our part.

We each as individual member of His Body (Church) have to come to a place where we have completely
submitted our will to Christ, when we come to that place we are fit to do the Father's Will.

As long as we are still fighting over which church organization we belong to or which is the right one,
we are merely babes in Christ, that is if we are even born again.

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 17:08:36

Quote from: Catholica on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 17:06:38

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 17:03:13
ANy one church/denomination that claims they its only though their church that you can be saved, or that theirs is the  only 'true' church, is both entirely unbiblical, and also completely deceived. I dont think that God would be at all happy with any church/organisation that tried to exclude millions of His precious children, and tell them they arent saved. 

But if they are spirit-filled, then no matter what their church teaches, they are Christian, right?  So a spirit-filled "Mormon" is really just another brethren, and it is wrong for you to tell them that they are deceived, especially since they are infilled by the Holy Spirit.

Who says they are Holy Spirit filled?

They will be the first to tell you that they are.

Would you suggest that someone can think they have the Holy Spirit but not actually have Him?

Quote from: Catholica on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 18:05:54

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 17:08:36

Quote from: Catholica on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 17:06:38

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 17:03:13
ANy one church/denomination that claims they its only though their church that you can be saved, or that theirs is the  only 'true' church, is both entirely unbiblical, and also completely deceived. I dont think that God would be at all happy with any church/organisation that tried to exclude millions of His precious children, and tell them they arent saved. 

But if they are spirit-filled, then no matter what their church teaches, they are Christian, right?  So a spirit-filled "Mormon" is really just another brethren, and it is wrong for you to tell them that they are deceived, especially since they are infilled by the Holy Spirit.

Who says they are Holy Spirit filled?

They will be the first to tell you that they are.

Would you suggest that someone can think they have the Holy Spirit but not actually have Him?

It depends upon what they think "have the Holy Spirit" means.  I have heard from some who think that have the Holy Spirit in the same way as the Apostles. So then, in that case I would say, yes, I would suggest they can think they have the Holy Spirit but not actually have Him.

Quote from: Catholica on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 18:05:54

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 17:08:36

Quote from: Catholica on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 17:06:38

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 17:03:13
ANy one church/denomination that claims they its only though their church that you can be saved, or that theirs is the  only 'true' church, is both entirely unbiblical, and also completely deceived. I dont think that God would be at all happy with any church/organisation that tried to exclude millions of His precious children, and tell them they arent saved. 

But if they are spirit-filled, then no matter what their church teaches, they are Christian, right?  So a spirit-filled "Mormon" is really just another brethren, and it is wrong for you to tell them that they are deceived, especially since they are infilled by the Holy Spirit.

Who says they are Holy Spirit filled?

They will be the first to tell you that they are.

Would you suggest that someone can think they have the Holy Spirit but not actually have Him?

Why would any of that be an issue for you?
Are Muslims filled with the Holy Spirit? No.
Yet the RCC teaches that for Muslims too there is a plan of salvation, so its doesn't matter if one thinks to have the Holy Spirit or not. It is of no consequence.

Well said. 

Quote from: doorknocker on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 17:38:20

Quote from: kensington on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 16:36:21
God has only one church. It does not have a title as roman catholic or anglican, baptist, pentecostal,
church of christ, or any other name.
His Church are those that are born and led by the Spirit of God. Christ is the Head of the Church. It is the Holy Spirit that appoints overseers  (Acts 20 , 28)
It is Christ who gives gifts to His Church (Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers, Ephesians 4, 11-12) to equip the saints for the work of ministry.
His authority is by the Spirit not by human institutions with different labels.
It is Christ who anoints His servants to have authority and power in His Church.


Amen to that!  Amen and Amen!
Is it wrong do you think, to question or wonder if some religions or denominations fall under this statement of truth?   

My Lord established one Church only, those that are born and led of the Spirit of God belong to it.
It will recognize Christ as its Head and no one else. 
It will not be religious as Christ came to deliver it from man made religions and let His Church walk in freedom
by His Holy Spirit. Some members can be found in man made religious organization and a lot of them without.

His Church is His body and He is the Head of the body. To give a human example.....
Our natural physical body consists of all different parts, but there is no part of the physical body that
can move on its own unless it is instructed to do so by the brain, the head.

So for the body of Christ (Church) to function properly,  we all as members have to be led by the head.
What religion or denominations are doing is trying to make every one the same (trying to make a pinky
into a thump), which will never work.
We need to seek God to find our place in the body and be obedient as Christ leads us.

Just think if every part of a hand got its direction from the Head, how great a work it can do instead of
wasting our time trying to change each other to be like our part.

We each as individual member of His Body (Church) have to come to a place where we have completely
submitted our will to Christ, when we come to that place we are fit to do the Father's Will.

As long as we are still fighting over which church organization we belong to or which is the right one,
we are merely babes in Christ, that is if we are even born again.

Quote from: AVZ on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 18:14:18

Quote from: Catholica on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 18:05:54

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 17:08:36

Quote from: Catholica on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 17:06:38

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 17:03:13
ANy one church/denomination that claims they its only though their church that you can be saved, or that theirs is the  only 'true' church, is both entirely unbiblical, and also completely deceived. I dont think that God would be at all happy with any church/organisation that tried to exclude millions of His precious children, and tell them they arent saved. 

But if they are spirit-filled, then no matter what their church teaches, they are Christian, right?  So a spirit-filled "Mormon" is really just another brethren, and it is wrong for you to tell them that they are deceived, especially since they are infilled by the Holy Spirit.

Who says they are Holy Spirit filled?

They will be the first to tell you that they are.

Would you suggest that someone can think they have the Holy Spirit but not actually have Him?

Why would any of that be an issue for you?
Are Muslims filled with the Holy Spirit? No.
Yet the RCC teaches that for Muslims too there is a plan of salvation, so its doesn't matter if one thinks to have the Holy Spirit or not. It is of no consequence.

Do you think that God does not have a plan of salvation for everyone?

And Peter opened his mouth and said: "Truly I perceive that God shows no partiality, but in every nation any one who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. (Acts 10:34-35)

So Paul, standing in the middle of the Areopagus, said: "Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. For as I passed along, and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, 'To an unknown god.' What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. ......... And he made from one every nation of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their habitation, that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel after him and find him. (Acts 17:22-23, 26-27)

What do you say Catholica -- Winsome   Is there anything Christ taught his apostles that any of the apostles  would sit as a pope on an earthly throne and to be called Holly Father?

It says we are to be holy but do you know any one who thinks he is worthy to be called holy let alone Holy Father.  To think one is supreme over the earth?

I wonder why these questions go without answer while you hide amongst other very good responses. Has the cat got your tongue?  The problem is that if you were to be honest about these questions your very identity as a RC would be ashes leaving you in a place that is void with out a church you cling to for your very purpose.

Yet this is the only Place where you may call on Christ to be you only hop e and savior

Quote from: winsome on Wed Apr 22, 2015 - 04:29:15

Quote from: AVZ on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 18:14:18

Quote from: Catholica on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 18:05:54

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 17:08:36

Quote from: Catholica on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 17:06:38

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 17:03:13
ANy one church/denomination that claims they its only though their church that you can be saved, or that theirs is the  only 'true' church, is both entirely unbiblical, and also completely deceived. I dont think that God would be at all happy with any church/organisation that tried to exclude millions of His precious children, and tell them they arent saved. 

But if they are spirit-filled, then no matter what their church teaches, they are Christian, right?  So a spirit-filled "Mormon" is really just another brethren, and it is wrong for you to tell them that they are deceived, especially since they are infilled by the Holy Spirit.

Who says they are Holy Spirit filled?

They will be the first to tell you that they are.

Would you suggest that someone can think they have the Holy Spirit but not actually have Him?

Why would any of that be an issue for you?
Are Muslims filled with the Holy Spirit? No.
Yet the RCC teaches that for Muslims too there is a plan of salvation, so its doesn't matter if one thinks to have the Holy Spirit or not. It is of no consequence.

Do you think that God does not have a plan of salvation for everyone?

No I don't.
There only is salvation through Christ. That's the only plan available.
Muslims reject Christ, hence there is no plan of salvation for Muslims.

The teaching by the RCC on this matter is a grave error.

Quote from: mclees8 on Wed Apr 22, 2015 - 10:49:18
What do you say Catholica -- Winsome   Is there anything Christ taught his apostles that any of the apostles  would sit as a pope on an earthly throne and to be called Holly Father?

It says we are to be holy but do you know any one who thinks he is worthy to be called holy let alone Holy Father.  To think one is supreme over the earth?

I wonder why these questions go without answer while you hide amongst other very good responses. Has the cat got your tongue?  The problem is that if you were to be honest about these questions your very identity as a RC would be ashes leaving you in a place that is void with out a church you cling to for your very purpose.

Yet this is the only Place where you may call on Christ to be you only hop e and savior

I am no longer responding to your posts concerning this issue.  Everything that needs to be said has been said to you previously.

Quote from: Catholica on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 18:05:54

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 17:08:36

Quote from: Catholica on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 17:06:38

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 17:03:13
ANy one church/denomination that claims they its only though their church that you can be saved, or that theirs is the  only 'true' church, is both entirely unbiblical, and also completely deceived. I dont think that God would be at all happy with any church/organisation that tried to exclude millions of His precious children, and tell them they arent saved. 

But if they are spirit-filled, then no matter what their church teaches, they are Christian, right?  So a spirit-filled "Mormon" is really just another brethren, and it is wrong for you to tell them that they are deceived, especially since they are infilled by the Holy Spirit.

Who says they are Holy Spirit filled?

They will be the first to tell you that they are.

Would you suggest that someone can think they have the Holy Spirit but not actually have Him?

Absolutely, satan is good at offering what people think they want. There are evil powers as well as good ones, that can give the appearance initially of being good.  Satan come like an angel of light, he is the great deceiver.

AVZ, you seemed confused about the difference between "salvation" and a "plan for salvation".

Let's say that I have a plan for building a house.  And that plan involves going through the normal house-building "stuff".  The plan doesn't become a house until I go through all those house-building steps.

So too does God have a plan for Muslims.  That plan involves giving them the grace they need to repent and enter the Church, first and foremost.  Does that mean that God's plan is to save Muslims through Islam?  No, his plan is to save Muslims through the Church he established.

That is a plan for salvation.

John 14:6

6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 10 v 9

I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

Either we believe what Jesus said or we dont.

Quote from: chosenone on Wed Apr 22, 2015 - 11:06:25

Quote from: Catholica on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 18:05:54

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 17:08:36

Quote from: Catholica on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 17:06:38

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 17:03:13
ANy one church/denomination that claims they its only though their church that you can be saved, or that theirs is the  only 'true' church, is both entirely unbiblical, and also completely deceived. I dont think that God would be at all happy with any church/organisation that tried to exclude millions of His precious children, and tell them they arent saved. 

But if they are spirit-filled, then no matter what their church teaches, they are Christian, right?  So a spirit-filled "Mormon" is really just another brethren, and it is wrong for you to tell them that they are deceived, especially since they are infilled by the Holy Spirit.

Who says they are Holy Spirit filled?

They will be the first to tell you that they are.

Would you suggest that someone can think they have the Holy Spirit but not actually have Him?

Absolutely, satan is good at offering what people think they want. There are evil powers as well as good ones, that can give the appearance initially of being good.  Satan come like an angel of light, he is the great deceiver.

So they think they have the Holy Spirit but in your estimation, do not. 

You also think that you have the Holy Spirit.  How do you know that you aren't also "deceived by evil powers" "that can give the appearance initially of being good"?

Quote from: Catholica on Wed Apr 22, 2015 - 11:06:51
AVZ, you seemed confused about the difference between "salvation" and a "plan for salvation".

Let's say that I have a plan for building a house.  And that plan involves going through the normal house-building "stuff".  The plan doesn't become a house until I go through all those house-building steps.

So too does God have a plan for Muslims.  That plan involves giving them the grace they need to repent and enter the Church, first and foremost.  Does that mean that God's plan is to save Muslims through Islam?  No, his plan is to save Muslims through the Church he established.

That is a plan for salvation.

His plan for salvation is found ONLY in Christ.  That is what He Himself says.  Entering His church, and becoming part of the Body of Christ only comes after salvation.

Quote from: Catholica on Wed Apr 22, 2015 - 11:08:24

Quote from: chosenone on Wed Apr 22, 2015 - 11:06:25

Quote from: Catholica on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 18:05:54

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 17:08:36

Quote from: Catholica on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 17:06:38

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 17:03:13
ANy one church/denomination that claims they its only though their church that you can be saved, or that theirs is the  only 'true' church, is both entirely unbiblical, and also completely deceived. I dont think that God would be at all happy with any church/organisation that tried to exclude millions of His precious children, and tell them they arent saved. 

But if they are spirit-filled, then no matter what their church teaches, they are Christian, right?  So a spirit-filled "Mormon" is really just another brethren, and it is wrong for you to tell them that they are deceived, especially since they are infilled by the Holy Spirit.

Who says they are Holy Spirit filled?

They will be the first to tell you that they are.

Would you suggest that someone can think they have the Holy Spirit but not actually have Him?

Absolutely, satan is good at offering what people think they want. There are evil powers as well as good ones, that can give the appearance initially of being good.  Satan come like an angel of light, he is the great deceiver.

So they think they have the Holy Spirit but in your estimation, do not. 

You also think that you have the Holy Spirit.  How do you know that you aren't also "deceived by evil powers" "that can give the appearance initially of being good"?

Discernment.
We can see by what others believe and how they act and how their group operates as to whether they are following God or not. With many sects and cults and other faiths its as clear as day.

Quote from: doorknocker on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 17:38:20

Quote from: kensington on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 16:36:21
God has only one church. It does not have a title as roman catholic or anglican, baptist, pentecostal,
church of christ, or any other name.
His Church are those that are born and led by the Spirit of God. Christ is the Head of the Church. It is the Holy Spirit that appoints overseers  (Acts 20 , 28)
It is Christ who gives gifts to His Church (Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers, Ephesians 4, 11-12) to equip the saints for the work of ministry.
His authority is by the Spirit not by human institutions with different labels.
It is Christ who anoints His servants to have authority and power in His Church.


Amen to that!  Amen and Amen!
Is it wrong do you think, to question or wonder if some religions or denominations fall under this statement of truth?   

My Lord established one Church only, those that are born and led of the Spirit of God belong to it.
It will recognize Christ as its Head and no one else. 
It will not be religious as Christ came to deliver it from man made religions and let His Church walk in freedom
by His Holy Spirit. Some members can be found in man made religious organization and a lot of them without.

His Church is His body and He is the Head of the body. To give a human example.....
Our natural physical body consists of all different parts, but there is no part of the physical body that
can move on its own unless it is instructed to do so by the brain, the head.

So for the body of Christ (Church) to function properly,  we all as members have to be led by the head.
What religion or denominations are doing is trying to make every one the same (trying to make a pinky
into a thump), which will never work.
We need to seek God to find our place in the body and be obedient as Christ leads us.

Just think if every part of a hand got its direction from the Head, how great a work it can do instead of
wasting our time trying to change each other to be like our part.

We each as individual member of His Body (Church) have to come to a place where we have completely
submitted our will to Christ, when we come to that place we are fit to do the Father's Will.

As long as we are still fighting over which church organization we belong to or which is the right one,
we are merely babes in Christ, that is if we are even born again.

Amen to that!!

Quote from: chosenone on Wed Apr 22, 2015 - 11:11:40

Quote from: Catholica on Wed Apr 22, 2015 - 11:08:24

Quote from: chosenone on Wed Apr 22, 2015 - 11:06:25

Quote from: Catholica on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 18:05:54

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 17:08:36

Quote from: Catholica on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 17:06:38

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Apr 21, 2015 - 17:03:13
ANy one church/denomination that claims they its only though their church that you can be saved, or that theirs is the  only 'true' church, is both entirely unbiblical, and also completely deceived. I dont think that God would be at all happy with any church/organisation that tried to exclude millions of His precious children, and tell them they arent saved. 

But if they are spirit-filled, then no matter what their church teaches, they are Christian, right?  So a spirit-filled "Mormon" is really just another brethren, and it is wrong for you to tell them that they are deceived, especially since they are infilled by the Holy Spirit.

Who says they are Holy Spirit filled?

They will be the first to tell you that they are.

Would you suggest that someone can think they have the Holy Spirit but not actually have Him?

Absolutely, satan is good at offering what people think they want. There are evil powers as well as good ones, that can give the appearance initially of being good.  Satan come like an angel of light, he is the great deceiver.

So they think they have the Holy Spirit but in your estimation, do not. 

You also think that you have the Holy Spirit.  How do you know that you aren't also "deceived by evil powers" "that can give the appearance initially of being good"?

Discernment.
We can see by what others believe and how they act and how their group operates as to whether they are following God or not. With many sects and cults and other faiths its as clear as day.

The Mormons will also claim discernment.  Likely that is what they mean by that "burning in their belly".

If one doesn't know first with absolute certitude that they have the Holy Spirit, then they can't reliably know that other people's beliefs are false.  I'm sure that that Mormon person who also believes that he has the Holy Spirit (just as you do) would say the exact same thing about your group and beliefs.

In essence, you are not unlike the Mormon in this discernment.  You both have discerned that you have the Holy Spirit and you both believe the other is deceived.

Quote from: MeMyself on Wed Apr 22, 2015 - 11:08:40

Quote from: Catholica on Wed Apr 22, 2015 - 11:06:51
AVZ, you seemed confused about the difference between "salvation" and a "plan for salvation".

Let's say that I have a plan for building a house.  And that plan involves going through the normal house-building "stuff".  The plan doesn't become a house until I go through all those house-building steps.

So too does God have a plan for Muslims.  That plan involves giving them the grace they need to repent and enter the Church, first and foremost.  Does that mean that God's plan is to save Muslims through Islam?  No, his plan is to save Muslims through the Church he established.

That is a plan for salvation.

His plan for salvation is found ONLY in Christ.  That is what He Himself says.  Entering His church, and becoming part of the Body of Christ only comes after salvation.

That's what I am saying.  And this plan also includes people who are currently believing in the religion of Islam. 

For AVZ and anyone who thinks that the Catholic Church teaches that Muslims can be saved through Islam, this link is provided.

http://www.catholicfidelity.com/the-catechism-on-islam-by-james-akin/

Quote from: Catholica on Wed Apr 22, 2015 - 11:47:37

Quote from: MeMyself on Wed Apr 22, 2015 - 11:08:40

Quote from: Catholica on Wed Apr 22, 2015 - 11:06:51
AVZ, you seemed confused about the difference between "salvation" and a "plan for salvation".

Let's say that I have a plan for building a house.  And that plan involves going through the normal house-building "stuff".  The plan doesn't become a house until I go through all those house-building steps.

So too does God have a plan for Muslims.  That plan involves giving them the grace they need to repent and enter the Church, first and foremost.  Does that mean that God's plan is to save Muslims through Islam?  No, his plan is to save Muslims through the Church he established.

That is a plan for salvation.

His plan for salvation is found ONLY in Christ.  That is what He Himself says.  Entering His church, and becoming part of the Body of Christ only comes after salvation.

That's what I am saying.  And this plan also includes people who are currently believing in the religion of Islam. 

For AVZ and anyone who thinks that the Catholic Church teaches that Muslims can be saved through Islam, this link is provided.

http://www.catholicfidelity.com/the-catechism-on-islam-by-james-akin/

It is?? Sure sounded like you were saying entering a specific church is what will save them...if I misunderstand I apologize

Quote from: MeMyself on Wed Apr 22, 2015 - 11:54:50


It is?? Sure sounded like you were saying entering a specific church is what will save them...if I misunderstand I apologize

The biggest mistake in that Catechism is to think the Muslim god is the same God as that of the Christians. It is not so. Islam's god is a pagan moon god. That is the reason for the symbol of their faith being the crescent moon and star. 
Muslims face east to bow to the direction of Mecca and the K'abah where the physical representative of their pagan moon god is housed. A black stone, a meteorite that fell from space and now is contained in a box in the K'abah. They pray in this direction five times a day.

Islams god is not our God.

God's grace is open to all who would seek his truth. The first thing for a Muslim to do to acquire salvation is to renounce their pagan moon God and accept the one true God and Christ in order to be saved and enter the church of Christ, which is the entirety of those faithful to the truth of God in Jesus and the Gospel and message of the cross.

Quote from: MeMyself on Wed Apr 22, 2015 - 11:54:50

Quote from: Catholica on Wed Apr 22, 2015 - 11:47:37

Quote from: MeMyself on Wed Apr 22, 2015 - 11:08:40

Quote from: Catholica on Wed Apr 22, 2015 - 11:06:51
AVZ, you seemed confused about the difference between "salvation" and a "plan for salvation".

Let's say that I have a plan for building a house.  And that plan involves going through the normal house-building "stuff".  The plan doesn't become a house until I go through all those house-building steps.

So too does God have a plan for Muslims.  That plan involves giving them the grace they need to repent and enter the Church, first and foremost.  Does that mean that God's plan is to save Muslims through Islam?  No, his plan is to save Muslims through the Church he established.

That is a plan for salvation.

His plan for salvation is found ONLY in Christ.  That is what He Himself says.  Entering His church, and becoming part of the Body of Christ only comes after salvation.

That's what I am saying.  And this plan also includes people who are currently believing in the religion of Islam. 

For AVZ and anyone who thinks that the Catholic Church teaches that Muslims can be saved through Islam, this link is provided.

http://www.catholicfidelity.com/the-catechism-on-islam-by-james-akin/

It is?? Sure sounded like you were saying entering a specific church is what will save them...if I misunderstand I apologize

The sacraments are available to all who would approach them, and they are the entrance into the body of Christ, which is also called "the Church".  All who have come to the sacrament of baptism, whether offered by a non-Catholic or a Catholic, have entered into the body of Christ and at that moment were in Christ and may remain so to this day.

I believe that in the Catholic Church subsists the fullness of Christ's salvific plan, but that others who have been baptized are also members of the body of Christ.

This article might clarify things, especially what the word "subsists" entails, which is a word that is not common in every day use.

https://www.ewtn.com/library/Doctrine/subsistit.htm

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Wed Apr 22, 2015 - 12:10:08

Quote from: MeMyself on Wed Apr 22, 2015 - 11:54:50


It is?? Sure sounded like you were saying entering a specific church is what will save them...if I misunderstand I apologize

The biggest mistake in that Catechism is to think the Muslim god is the same God as that of the Christians. It is not so. Islam's god is a pagan moon god. That is the reason for the symbol of their faith being the crescent moon and star. 
Muslims face east to bow to the direction of Mecca and the K'abah where the physical representative of their pagan moon god is housed. A black stone, a meteorite that fell from space and now is contained in a box in the K'abah. They pray in this direction five times a day.

Islams god is not our God.

God's grace is open to all who would seek his truth. The first thing for a Muslim to do to acquire salvation is to renounce their pagan moon God and accept the one true God and Christ in order to be saved and enter the church of Christ, which is the entirety of those faithful to the truth of God in Jesus and the Gospel and message of the cross.

There is only one God, and Islam's idea of god, while deficient, does share some attributes with God, which is what the Catechism is saying.  You would know that that is what the Catholic Church teaches if you read the link I provided.

Quote from: Catholica on Wed Apr 22, 2015 - 12:20:58

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Wed Apr 22, 2015 - 12:10:08

Quote from: MeMyself on Wed Apr 22, 2015 - 11:54:50


It is?? Sure sounded like you were saying entering a specific church is what will save them...if I misunderstand I apologize

The biggest mistake in that Catechism is to think the Muslim god is the same God as that of the Christians. It is not so. Islam's god is a pagan moon god. That is the reason for the symbol of their faith being the crescent moon and star. 
Muslims face east to bow to the direction of Mecca and the K'abah where the physical representative of their pagan moon god is housed. A black stone, a meteorite that fell from space and now is contained in a box in the K'abah. They pray in this direction five times a day.

Islams god is not our God.

God's grace is open to all who would seek his truth. The first thing for a Muslim to do to acquire salvation is to renounce their pagan moon God and accept the one true God and Christ in order to be saved and enter the church of Christ, which is the entirety of those faithful to the truth of God in Jesus and the Gospel and message of the cross.

There is only one God, and Islam's idea of god, while deficient, does share some attributes with God, which is what the Catechism is saying.  You would know that that is what the Catholic Church teaches if you read the link I provided.

I think what you fail to realize is that I did read what the Roman Catholic church catechism said about Islam and its moon god.

And the RCC is wrong.

That is what I'm saying. The Islamic god is a pagan moon god.
So you see, while there is only one God, the god of the Muslims is not him.

It therefore shares no attributes with or to the Christian God. 

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Wed Apr 22, 2015 - 12:34:28

Quote from: Catholica on Wed Apr 22, 2015 - 12:20:58

Quote from: Buster D Body Crab on Wed Apr 22, 2015 - 12:10:08

Quote from: MeMyself on Wed Apr 22, 2015 - 11:54:50


It is?? Sure sounded like you were saying entering a specific church is what will save them...if I misunderstand I apologize

The biggest mistake in that Catechism is to think the Muslim god is the same God as that of the Christians. It is not so. Islam's god is a pagan moon god. That is the reason for the symbol of their faith being the crescent moon and star. 
Muslims face east to bow to the direction of Mecca and the K'abah where the physical representative of their pagan moon god is housed. A black stone, a meteorite that fell from space and now is contained in a box in the K'abah. They pray in this direction five times a day.

Islams god is not our God.

God's grace is open to all who would seek his truth. The first thing for a Muslim to do to acquire salvation is to renounce their pagan moon God and accept the one true God and Christ in order to be saved and enter the church of Christ, which is the entirety of those faithful to the truth of God in Jesus and the Gospel and message of the cross.

There is only one God, and Islam's idea of god, while deficient, does share some attributes with God, which is what the Catechism is saying.  You would know that that is what the Catholic Church teaches if you read the link I provided.

I think what you fail to realize is that I did read what the Roman Catholic church catechism said about Islam and its moon god.

And the RCC is wrong.

That is what I'm saying. The Islamic god is a pagan moon god.
So you see, while there is only one God, the god of the Muslims is not him.

It therefore shares no attributes with or to the Christian God.

But you didn't read the article that I sent, nor did you read the original sources that the Catechism entry was pulled from.

And in fact "Allah", their concept of God, is one of a merciful and just God, and in that sense, does share some attributes with God.  Their concept of "Allah" is that God is one; the Trinitarian God is also one.

Try reading the article I posted, it will help you to not make false statements.

Quote from: Catholica on Wed Apr 22, 2015 - 12:18:23
The sacraments are available to all who would approach them, and they are the entrance into the body of Christ, which is also called "the Church".  All who have come to the sacrament of baptism, whether offered by a non-Catholic or a Catholic, have entered into the body of Christ and at that moment were in Christ and may remain so to this day.

Agreed.

QuoteI believe that in the Catholic Church subsists the fullness of Christ's salvific plan, but that others who have been baptized are also members of the body of Christ.

No to the first part of that sentence, yes to the second part.

Quotehttps://www.ewtn.com/library/Doctrine/subsistit.htm

The very first paragraph is incorrect.  So the rest that follows is contaminated by it.

Eph 2:19  So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household,
Eph 2:20  having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,
Eph 2:21  in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,
Eph 2:22  in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

1Co_3:11  For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.


It is that entire concept of there being a successor to Peter that is in error.  That concept is wholly apart from anything presented in the NT.