Christian Forums

I thought Ladonia just said Pope means father?

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Tue Feb 23, 2016 - 08:08:22
I thought Ladonia just said Pope means father?

Yes it does. But if we are into literalism here then we need to take Jesus words literally. He said father and we say Pope. No problem!

Quote from: winsome on Tue Feb 23, 2016 - 08:17:20

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Tue Feb 23, 2016 - 08:08:22
I thought Ladonia just said Pope means father?

Yes it does. But if we are into literalism here then we need to take Jesus words literally. He said father and we say Pope. No problem!

So when we see Jesus saying "father" who is Jesus referring to?

Quote from: Jd34 on Tue Feb 23, 2016 - 08:22:29

Quote from: winsome on Tue Feb 23, 2016 - 08:17:20

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Tue Feb 23, 2016 - 08:08:22
I thought Ladonia just said Pope means father?

Yes it does. But if we are into literalism here then we need to take Jesus words literally. He said father and we say Pope. No problem!

So when we see Jesus saying "father" who is Jesus referring to?

Go on, you tell me.

Quote from: winsome on Tue Feb 23, 2016 - 08:24:32

Quote from: Jd34 on Tue Feb 23, 2016 - 08:22:29

Quote from: winsome on Tue Feb 23, 2016 - 08:17:20

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Tue Feb 23, 2016 - 08:08:22
I thought Ladonia just said Pope means father?

Yes it does. But if we are into literalism here then we need to take Jesus words literally. He said father and we say Pope. No problem!

So when we see Jesus saying "father" who is Jesus referring to?

Go on, you tell me.

I'm asking you.

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Mon Feb 22, 2016 - 08:08:13

Quote from: Ladonia on Sun Feb 21, 2016 - 22:01:12

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Sun Feb 21, 2016 - 07:00:38

Quote from: Ladonia on Sun Feb 21, 2016 - 06:43:17

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Sat Feb 20, 2016 - 11:12:46

Quote from: Catholica on Sat Feb 20, 2016 - 11:00:55

Quote from: kgloss on Sat Feb 20, 2016 - 10:36:30

We don't tell the Pope how to run the Vatican.

He doesn't need to influence our elections.

Maybe we should help them elect their next Pope!   

Americanism

This heresy which was condemned by Pope Leo XIII is the denial of the influence of the Church's social doctrine in the civil domain. It's ultimate consequence is the denial of the rights of God and the supernatural order.  It is a denial of the supernatural order established by God. This heresy is called "Americanism" because Pope Leo XIII wrote his encyclical (Testem Benevolentiae Nostrae) to   Cardinal James Gibbons, condemning the false notion of Catholicism that he was working to establish in the newly founded continent of America which was founded by non-Catholics. This meant that Cardinal Gibbons and a number of other prelates tried to compromise with the false principles as were enshrined in the American constitution.  Americanism it is not a condemnation of America as such but a condemnation of the false notions as introduced into the faith by means of the American prelates. It is more than ever important to remove the blind fold in this regard since many Catholics while claiming to be Catholics are not Catholic but "Americanists" who deny the influence of Christ and His Church in the social sphere. For this reason Americanism leads to the Public denial of Christ the King and ultimately to the destruction of society since there can never be a true peace without Christ, the Prince of Peace.

Nope, just the pope, an office of charlatans.

The Bishop of the Universal Christian Church is not an office of charlatans, it is very biblical. You have heard about the office of Bishop, right?

Bishop is in God's Word.  Pope is not.

Pope means "Papa" or Father, and the Scriptures refer numerous times to our earthly religious leaders being called father, starting with Abraham who according to St. Paul's letter to the Romans (4:16) is "the Father of us all".

You need to read Matthew 23:9

The man who impregnated my mother I call my father, and when I call him that I do not in any way confuse him with, or think of him as, my heavenly father. It is the same with our religious leaders here on earth despite the Scripture verse you highlighted.  The Scriptures can say one thing at one point, and then something quite different in another and as an example I am sure you know that the gospels themselves do give  different versions of various events, right?

The problem with the "call no man father" catholic bashing is that it is based on the fallacy of equivocation.

Jesus said "call no man father"

But we don't call our priests, or the Pope, father, we address them as father. It's not the same.

Fr. Harry wrote an excellent post on this explaining the greek term used in Mt 23:9.

Quote from: winsome on Tue Feb 23, 2016 - 08:42:41

The problem with the "call no man father" catholic bashing is that it is based on the fallacy of equivocation.

Jesus said "call no man father"

But we don't call our priests, or the Pope, father, we address them as father. It's not the same.

Fr. Harry wrote an excellent post on this explaining the greek term used in Mt 23:9.

Amazing example of twisting your doctrine to explain away something Jesus clearly said.  Best example of a lie I have ever seen.  Bravo!

Tell me, when you speak to your real father,  what do you call him when you address him?

Quote from: Ladonia on Tue Feb 23, 2016 - 08:29:46
The man who impregnated my mother I call my father, and when I call him that I do not in any way confuse him with, or think of him as, my heavenly father. It is the same with our religious leaders here on earth despite the Scripture verse you highlighted.

The Scriptures can say one thing at one point, and then something quite different in another and as an example I am sure you know that

the gospels themselves do give  different versions of various events, right?

yes, it can say one thing at one place in scripture and something else in another.  do you know why that is?

and yes, there are what some differences in the gospels.  Do you know why?

Quote from: winsome on Tue Feb 23, 2016 - 08:42:41

The problem with the "call no man father" catholic bashing is that it is based on the fallacy of equivocation.

Jesus said "call no man father"

But we don't call our priests, or the Pope, father, we address them as father. It's not the same.

Fr. Harry wrote an excellent post on this explaining the greek term used in Mt 23:9.

So according to catholic logic, I could address you as "fool" and not call you one?

 

Quote from: kensington on Tue Feb 23, 2016 - 16:04:04

Quote from: winsome on Tue Feb 23, 2016 - 08:42:41

The problem with the "call no man father" catholic bashing is that it is based on the fallacy of equivocation.

Jesus said "call no man father"

But we don't call our priests, or the Pope, father, we address them as father. It's not the same.

 

Amazing example of twisting your doctrine to explain away something Jesus clearly said.  Best example of a lie I have ever seen.  Bravo!

Tell me, when you speak to your real father,  what do you call him when you address him?

Quote from: AVZ on Wed Feb 24, 2016 - 05:05:10

So according to catholic logic, I could address you as "fool" and not call you one?

It's about the meaning of  "call" as a verb.

Do you scoffers understand what the fallacy of equivocation is? Probably not!
It's using a word in two different senses while appearing to use it in the same sense.

Here is a very obvious example:
Suppose you have a talent for sketching people with a pencil on paper and make very good likenesses. I could say to you "You shouldn't draw people because the Bible says that it is God who draws people (John 6:44, John 12:32)"

This equivocation is what is happening here.


There are several places in scripture where people address someome as father.
For example:
"I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning." (1Jn 2:13)

"Blessed is the kingdom of our father David that is coming!"(Mk 11:10)

See also Matt 10:21-37, 15:4-6, Lk 16:24, Jas 2:21. Mt 23:32, Acts 7:2 etc.

From these we must conclude that Jesus did not mean call no man father in the sense of naming or addressing them as "father" or scripture would be contradicting itself.

The Collins Concise Dictionary gives 28 [yes, twenty eight] different meanings to the verb "call".

Which one is meant when we say Jesus said "call no man father"?.

The greek word for call in the sense of to name or to address someone is λέγω or εἴρηκα as in John 15;15

No longer do I call (λέγω) you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called (εἴρηκα) you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.

However the greek word translated as "call" in Mt 23:9 is καλέσητε and means to summon, to call forth, invite as in:
"Go therefore to the thoroughfares, and invite (καλέσατε) to the marriage feast as many as you find." (Mt 22:9)
"Then Herod summoned (καλέσας) the wise men secretly and ascertained from them what time the star appeared" (Mt 2:7)

Quote from: winsome on Wed Feb 24, 2016 - 06:06:52

Quote from: kensington on Tue Feb 23, 2016 - 16:04:04

Quote from: winsome on Tue Feb 23, 2016 - 08:42:41

The problem with the "call no man father" catholic bashing is that it is based on the fallacy of equivocation.

Jesus said "call no man father"

But we don't call our priests, or the Pope, father, we address them as father. It's not the same.

 

Amazing example of twisting your doctrine to explain away something Jesus clearly said.  Best example of a lie I have ever seen.  Bravo!

Tell me, when you speak to your real father,  what do you call him when you address him?

Quote from: AVZ on Wed Feb 24, 2016 - 05:05:10

So according to catholic logic, I could address you as "fool" and not call you one?

It's about the meaning of  "call" as a verb.

Do you scoffers understand what the fallacy of equivocation is? Probably not!
It's using a word in two different senses while appearing to use it in the same sense.

Here is a very obvious example:
Suppose you have a talent for sketching people with a pencil on paper and make very good likenesses. I could say to you "You shouldn't draw people because the Bible says that it is God who draws people (John 6:44, John 12:32)"

This equivocation is what is happening here.


There are several places in scripture where people address someome as father.
For example:
"I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning." (1Jn 2:13)

"Blessed is the kingdom of our father David that is coming!"(Mk 11:10)

See also Matt 10:21-37, 15:4-6, Lk 16:24, Jas 2:21. Mt 23:32, Acts 7:2 etc.

From these we must conclude that Jesus did not mean call no man father in the sense of naming or addressing them as "father" or scripture would be contradicting itself.

The Collins Concise Dictionary gives 28 [yes, twenty eight] different meanings to the verb "call".

Which one is meant when we say Jesus said "call no man father"?.

The greek word for call in the sense of to name or to address someone is λέγω or εἴρηκα as in John 15;15

No longer do I call (λέγω) you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called (εἴρηκα) you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.

However the greek word translated as "call" in Mt 23:9 is καλέσητε and means to summon, to call forth, invite as in:
"Go therefore to the thoroughfares, and invite (καλέσατε) to the marriage feast as many as you find." (Mt 22:9)
"Then Herod summoned (καλέσας) the wise men secretly and ascertained from them what time the star appeared" (Mt 2:7)

Yeah yeah, long stories always make bad excuses.
Its very simple, we all know what Jesus meant by saying "do not call anyone father..."
It simply means "do not submit yourself to anyone but God alone"

And here we have Catholics submitting themselves to someone and calling him father some more.
Jesus could not have been more clear, it's like He looked straight into the future and knew what you guys would come up with.

Quote from: AVZ on Wed Feb 24, 2016 - 08:28:34

Quote from: winsome on Wed Feb 24, 2016 - 06:06:52

Quote from: kensington on Tue Feb 23, 2016 - 16:04:04

Quote from: winsome on Tue Feb 23, 2016 - 08:42:41

The problem with the "call no man father" catholic bashing is that it is based on the fallacy of equivocation.

Jesus said "call no man father"

But we don't call our priests, or the Pope, father, we address them as father. It's not the same.

 

Amazing example of twisting your doctrine to explain away something Jesus clearly said.  Best example of a lie I have ever seen.  Bravo!

Tell me, when you speak to your real father,  what do you call him when you address him?

Quote from: AVZ on Wed Feb 24, 2016 - 05:05:10

So according to catholic logic, I could address you as "fool" and not call you one?

It's about the meaning of  "call" as a verb.

Do you scoffers understand what the fallacy of equivocation is? Probably not!
It's using a word in two different senses while appearing to use it in the same sense.

Here is a very obvious example:
Suppose you have a talent for sketching people with a pencil on paper and make very good likenesses. I could say to you "You shouldn't draw people because the Bible says that it is God who draws people (John 6:44, John 12:32)"

This equivocation is what is happening here.


There are several places in scripture where people address someome as father.
For example:
"I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning." (1Jn 2:13)

"Blessed is the kingdom of our father David that is coming!"(Mk 11:10)

See also Matt 10:21-37, 15:4-6, Lk 16:24, Jas 2:21. Mt 23:32, Acts 7:2 etc.

From these we must conclude that Jesus did not mean call no man father in the sense of naming or addressing them as "father" or scripture would be contradicting itself.

The Collins Concise Dictionary gives 28 [yes, twenty eight] different meanings to the verb "call".

Which one is meant when we say Jesus said "call no man father"?.

The greek word for call in the sense of to name or to address someone is λέγω or εἴρηκα as in John 15;15

No longer do I call (λέγω) you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called (εἴρηκα) you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.

However the greek word translated as "call" in Mt 23:9 is καλέσητε and means to summon, to call forth, invite as in:
"Go therefore to the thoroughfares, and invite (καλέσατε) to the marriage feast as many as you find." (Mt 22:9)
"Then Herod summoned (καλέσας) the wise men secretly and ascertained from them what time the star appeared" (Mt 2:7)

Yeah yeah, long stories always make bad excuses.
Its very simple, we all know what Jesus meant by saying "do not call anyone father..."
It simply means "do not submit yourself to anyone but God alone"

And here we have Catholics submitting themselves to someone and calling him father some more.
Jesus could not have been more clear, it's like He looked straight into the future and knew what you guys would come up with.

That's typical of you AVZ.

I give you a short answer - you scoff at it.

I give you a detailed answer - you scoff at it.

There is no chance of having a rational discussion with you. If you can't come up with a sensible refutation you resort to scoffing.

Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers (Psalm 1:1)

Behold, you scoffers, and wonder, and perish (Acts 13:41)

But you, beloved, remember the words spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ,  for they told you, "In (the) last time there will be scoffers who will live according to their own godless desires." (Jude 1:17-18)

Quote from: winsome on Wed Feb 24, 2016 - 11:53:34

Quote from: AVZ on Wed Feb 24, 2016 - 08:28:34

Quote from: winsome on Wed Feb 24, 2016 - 06:06:52

Quote from: kensington on Tue Feb 23, 2016 - 16:04:04

Quote from: winsome on Tue Feb 23, 2016 - 08:42:41

The problem with the "call no man father" catholic bashing is that it is based on the fallacy of equivocation.

Jesus said "call no man father"

But we don't call our priests, or the Pope, father, we address them as father. It's not the same.

 

Amazing example of twisting your doctrine to explain away something Jesus clearly said.  Best example of a lie I have ever seen.  Bravo!

Tell me, when you speak to your real father,  what do you call him when you address him?

Quote from: AVZ on Wed Feb 24, 2016 - 05:05:10

So according to catholic logic, I could address you as "fool" and not call you one?

It's about the meaning of  "call" as a verb.

Do you scoffers understand what the fallacy of equivocation is? Probably not!
It's using a word in two different senses while appearing to use it in the same sense.

Here is a very obvious example:
Suppose you have a talent for sketching people with a pencil on paper and make very good likenesses. I could say to you "You shouldn't draw people because the Bible says that it is God who draws people (John 6:44, John 12:32)"

This equivocation is what is happening here.


There are several places in scripture where people address someome as father.
For example:
"I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning." (1Jn 2:13)

"Blessed is the kingdom of our father David that is coming!"(Mk 11:10)

See also Matt 10:21-37, 15:4-6, Lk 16:24, Jas 2:21. Mt 23:32, Acts 7:2 etc.

From these we must conclude that Jesus did not mean call no man father in the sense of naming or addressing them as "father" or scripture would be contradicting itself.

The Collins Concise Dictionary gives 28 [yes, twenty eight] different meanings to the verb "call".

Which one is meant when we say Jesus said "call no man father"?.

The greek word for call in the sense of to name or to address someone is λέγω or εἴρηκα as in John 15;15

No longer do I call (λέγω) you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called (εἴρηκα) you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.

However the greek word translated as "call" in Mt 23:9 is καλέσητε and means to summon, to call forth, invite as in:
"Go therefore to the thoroughfares, and invite (καλέσατε) to the marriage feast as many as you find." (Mt 22:9)
"Then Herod summoned (καλέσας) the wise men secretly and ascertained from them what time the star appeared" (Mt 2:7)

Yeah yeah, long stories always make bad excuses.
Its very simple, we all know what Jesus meant by saying "do not call anyone father..."
It simply means "do not submit yourself to anyone but God alone"

And here we have Catholics submitting themselves to someone and calling him father some more.
Jesus could not have been more clear, it's like He looked straight into the future and knew what you guys would come up with.

That's typical of you AVZ.

I give you a short answer - you scoff at it.

I give you a detailed answer - you scoff at it.

There is no chance of having a rational discussion with you. If you can't come up with a sensible refutation you resort to scoffing.

Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers (Psalm 1:1)

Behold, you scoffers, and wonder, and perish (Acts 13:41)

But you, beloved, remember the words spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ,  for they told you, "In (the) last time there will be scoffers who will live according to their own godless desires." (Jude 1:17-18)

again, twisting scripture to support your false teachings.
catholics are the scoffers - that's why they always post writings from the ecfs, ccc, pope etc in an attempt to support those teachings.  anything from scripture has to be twisted or taken out of context for them to use.

Quote from: winsome on Wed Feb 24, 2016 - 11:53:34

Quote from: AVZ on Wed Feb 24, 2016 - 08:28:34
Yeah yeah, long stories always make bad excuses.
Its very simple, we all know what Jesus meant by saying "do not call anyone father..."
It simply means "do not submit yourself to anyone but God alone"

And here we have Catholics submitting themselves to someone and calling him father some more.
Jesus could not have been more clear, it's like He looked straight into the future and knew what you guys would come up with.

That's typical of you AVZ.

I give you a short answer - you scoff at it.

I give you a detailed answer - you scoff at it.

There is no chance of having a rational discussion with you. If you can't come up with a sensible refutation you resort to scoffing.

Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers (Psalm 1:1)

Behold, you scoffers, and wonder, and perish (Acts 13:41)

But you, beloved, remember the words spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ,  for they told you, "In (the) last time there will be scoffers who will live according to their own godless desires." (Jude 1:17-18)

Sure, you can call me a scoffer all you want...not impressive.
But to the point: everybody knows why Catholics are calling their "superiors" father.
And it is not because of the excuses you bring up such as father doesn't really mean father...or something like David was also called father.

Reality simply shows that even you guys want to make a distinction above and beyond the term "father" and that's why you address and call your Pope "Holy Father".
This of course in combination with the dogma that everybody must totally submit themselves to him.

Did you see anything in scripture claiming the same for Abraham, David or any of the apostles?
You can try to cover up the intent of the RCC all you want, anyone with half a brain knows whats going on and to what level you take the adoration of humans in your denomination.

Quote from: AVZ on Wed Feb 24, 2016 - 19:16:16

Quote from: winsome on Wed Feb 24, 2016 - 11:53:34

Quote from: AVZ on Wed Feb 24, 2016 - 08:28:34
Yeah yeah, long stories always make bad excuses.
Its very simple, we all know what Jesus meant by saying "do not call anyone father..."
It simply means "do not submit yourself to anyone but God alone"

And here we have Catholics submitting themselves to someone and calling him father some more.
Jesus could not have been more clear, it's like He looked straight into the future and knew what you guys would come up with.

That's typical of you AVZ.

I give you a short answer - you scoff at it.

I give you a detailed answer - you scoff at it.

There is no chance of having a rational discussion with you. If you can't come up with a sensible refutation you resort to scoffing.

Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers (Psalm 1:1)

Behold, you scoffers, and wonder, and perish (Acts 13:41)

But you, beloved, remember the words spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ,  for they told you, "In (the) last time there will be scoffers who will live according to their own godless desires." (Jude 1:17-18)

Sure, you can call me a scoffer all you want...not impressive.
But to the point: everybody knows why Catholics are calling their "superiors" father.
And it is not because of the excuses you bring up such as father doesn't really mean father...or something like David was also called father.

Reality simply shows that even you guys want to make a distinction above and beyond the term "father" and that's why you address and call your Pope "Holy Father".
This of course in combination with the dogma that everybody must totally submit themselves to him.

Did you see anything in scripture claiming the same for Abraham, David or any of the apostles?
You can try to cover up the intent of the RCC all you want, anyone with half a brain knows whats going on and to what level you take the adoration of humans in your denomination.

Yes, we submit to the Church established here on earth by Jesus Christ himself and it's leaders as per the Scriptures. They are here for our religious instruction and teaching the truth, not what you and your faulty biblical interpretations constantly spew out. And there is no adoration of them from me here, just respect as God instructs me to have towards those whom He has placed over me.

Quote from: Ladonia on Wed Feb 24, 2016 - 20:53:58

Quote from: AVZ on Wed Feb 24, 2016 - 19:16:16

Quote from: winsome on Wed Feb 24, 2016 - 11:53:34

Quote from: AVZ on Wed Feb 24, 2016 - 08:28:34
Yeah yeah, long stories always make bad excuses.
Its very simple, we all know what Jesus meant by saying "do not call anyone father..."
It simply means "do not submit yourself to anyone but God alone"

And here we have Catholics submitting themselves to someone and calling him father some more.
Jesus could not have been more clear, it's like He looked straight into the future and knew what you guys would come up with.

That's typical of you AVZ.

I give you a short answer - you scoff at it.

I give you a detailed answer - you scoff at it.

There is no chance of having a rational discussion with you. If you can't come up with a sensible refutation you resort to scoffing.

Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers (Psalm 1:1)

Behold, you scoffers, and wonder, and perish (Acts 13:41)

But you, beloved, remember the words spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ,  for they told you, "In (the) last time there will be scoffers who will live according to their own godless desires." (Jude 1:17-18)

Sure, you can call me a scoffer all you want...not impressive.
But to the point: everybody knows why Catholics are calling their "superiors" father.
And it is not because of the excuses you bring up such as father doesn't really mean father...or something like David was also called father.

Reality simply shows that even you guys want to make a distinction above and beyond the term "father" and that's why you address and call your Pope "Holy Father".
This of course in combination with the dogma that everybody must totally submit themselves to him.

Did you see anything in scripture claiming the same for Abraham, David or any of the apostles?
You can try to cover up the intent of the RCC all you want, anyone with half a brain knows whats going on and to what level you take the adoration of humans in your denomination.

Yes, we submit to the Church established here on earth by Jesus Christ himself and it's leaders as per the Scriptures. They are here for our religious instruction and teaching the truth, not what you and your faulty biblical interpretations constantly spew out. And there is no adoration of them from me here, just respect as God instructs me to have towards those whom He has placed over me.

No, you submit to the Pope personally (even if he was Satan incarnate), and you don't submit to "whom" but to "who"...singular.
History shows us that there have been various very evil popes, to which you personally submit yourself and who you call "Holy Father".

 

Quote from: skeeter on Wed Feb 24, 2016 - 16:56:59
again, twisting scripture to support your false teachings.
catholics are the scoffers - that's why they always post writings from the ecfs, ccc, pope etc in an attempt to support those teachings.  anything from scripture has to be twisted or taken out of context for them to use.

Quote from: AVZ on Wed Feb 24, 2016 - 19:16:16
Sure, you can call me a scoffer all you want...not impressive.
But to the point: everybody knows why Catholics are calling their "superiors" father.
And it is not because of the excuses you bring up such as father doesn't really mean father...or something like David was also called father.

Reality simply shows that even you guys want to make a distinction above and beyond the term "father" and that's why you address and call your Pope "Holy Father".
This of course in combination with the dogma that everybody must totally submit themselves to him.

Did you see anything in scripture claiming the same for Abraham, David or any of the apostles?
You can try to cover up the intent of the RCC all you want, anyone with half a brain knows whats going on and to what level you take the adoration of humans in your denomination.

I shall follow the good advice that scripture gives us: Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers (Psalm 1:1)


You believe what you want to believe. You have demonstrated you are impervious to reason.

Quote from: AVZ on Wed Feb 24, 2016 - 21:26:38

Quote from: Ladonia on Wed Feb 24, 2016 - 20:53:58

Quote from: AVZ on Wed Feb 24, 2016 - 19:16:16

Quote from: winsome on Wed Feb 24, 2016 - 11:53:34

Quote from: AVZ on Wed Feb 24, 2016 - 08:28:34
Yeah yeah, long stories always make bad excuses.
Its very simple, we all know what Jesus meant by saying "do not call anyone father..."
It simply means "do not submit yourself to anyone but God alone"

And here we have Catholics submitting themselves to someone and calling him father some more.
Jesus could not have been more clear, it's like He looked straight into the future and knew what you guys would come up with.

That's typical of you AVZ.

I give you a short answer - you scoff at it.

I give you a detailed answer - you scoff at it.

There is no chance of having a rational discussion with you. If you can't come up with a sensible refutation you resort to scoffing.

Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers (Psalm 1:1)

Behold, you scoffers, and wonder, and perish (Acts 13:41)

But you, beloved, remember the words spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ,  for they told you, "In (the) last time there will be scoffers who will live according to their own godless desires." (Jude 1:17-18)

Sure, you can call me a scoffer all you want...not impressive.
But to the point: everybody knows why Catholics are calling their "superiors" father.
And it is not because of the excuses you bring up such as father doesn't really mean father...or something like David was also called father.

Reality simply shows that even you guys want to make a distinction above and beyond the term "father" and that's why you address and call your Pope "Holy Father".
This of course in combination with the dogma that everybody must totally submit themselves to him.

Did you see anything in scripture claiming the same for Abraham, David or any of the apostles?
You can try to cover up the intent of the RCC all you want, anyone with half a brain knows whats going on and to what level you take the adoration of humans in your denomination.

Yes, we submit to the Church established here on earth by Jesus Christ himself and it's leaders as per the Scriptures. They are here for our religious instruction and teaching the truth, not what you and your faulty biblical interpretations constantly spew out. And there is no adoration of them from me here, just respect as God instructs me to have towards those whom He has placed over me.

No, you submit to the Pope personally (even if he was Satan incarnate), and you don't submit to "whom" but to "who"...singular.
History shows us that there have been various very evil popes, to which you personally submit yourself and who you call "Holy Father".

Don't try to tell me what I believe and who I submit to. I reject any evil person, be they Pope or President. In my lifetime there have been no evil Popes, just good God fearing bishops of the Church leading their flock.

Quote from: Ladonia on Thu Feb 25, 2016 - 11:11:54

Quote from: AVZ on Wed Feb 24, 2016 - 21:26:38

Quote from: Ladonia on Wed Feb 24, 2016 - 20:53:58
Yes, we submit to the Church established here on earth by Jesus Christ himself and it's leaders as per the Scriptures. They are here for our religious instruction and teaching the truth, not what you and your faulty biblical interpretations constantly spew out. And there is no adoration of them from me here, just respect as God instructs me to have towards those whom He has placed over me.

No, you submit to the Pope personally (even if he was Satan incarnate), and you don't submit to "whom" but to "who"...singular.
History shows us that there have been various very evil popes, to which you personally submit yourself and who you call "Holy Father".

Don't try to tell me what I believe and who I submit to. I reject any evil person, be they Pope or President. In my lifetime there have been no evil Popes, just good God fearing bishops of the Church leading their flock.

your religion tells us who you submit to.  doesn't sound like you want to claim it tho.

Quote from: winsome on Wed Feb 24, 2016 - 06:06:52

Quote from: kensington on Tue Feb 23, 2016 - 16:04:04

Quote from: winsome on Tue Feb 23, 2016 - 08:42:41

The problem with the "call no man father" catholic bashing is that it is based on the fallacy of equivocation.

Jesus said "call no man father"

But we don't call our priests, or the Pope, father, we address them as father. It's not the same.

 

Amazing example of twisting your doctrine to explain away something Jesus clearly said.  Best example of a lie I have ever seen.  Bravo!

Tell me, when you speak to your real father,  what do you call him when you address him?

Quote from: AVZ on Wed Feb 24, 2016 - 05:05:10

So according to catholic logic, I could address you as "fool" and not call you one?

It's about the meaning of  "call" as a verb.

Do you scoffers understand what the fallacy of equivocation is? Probably not!
It's using a word in two different senses while appearing to use it in the same sense.

Here is a very obvious example:
Suppose you have a talent for sketching people with a pencil on paper and make very good likenesses. I could say to you "You shouldn't draw people because the Bible says that it is God who draws people (John 6:44, John 12:32)"

This equivocation is what is happening here.


There are several places in scripture where people address someome as father.
For example:
"I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning." (1Jn 2:13)

"Blessed is the kingdom of our father David that is coming!"(Mk 11:10)

See also Matt 10:21-37, 15:4-6, Lk 16:24, Jas 2:21. Mt 23:32, Acts 7:2 etc.

From these we must conclude that Jesus did not mean call no man father in the sense of naming or addressing them as "father" or scripture would be contradicting itself.

The Collins Concise Dictionary gives 28 [yes, twenty eight] different meanings to the verb "call".

Which one is meant when we say Jesus said "call no man father"?.

The greek word for call in the sense of to name or to address someone is λέγω or εἴρηκα as in John 15;15

No longer do I call (λέγω) you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called (εἴρηκα) you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.

However the greek word translated as "call" in Mt 23:9 is καλέσητε and means to summon, to call forth, invite as in:
"Go therefore to the thoroughfares, and invite (καλέσατε) to the marriage feast as many as you find." (Mt 22:9)
"Then Herod summoned (καλέσας) the wise men secretly and ascertained from them what time the star appeared" (Mt 2:7)

Have you ever thought about pride of titles  Such as Jesus said they love to be called Rabbi Rabbi  when in the market place , or any place for that matter.   Religious pride of position and recognition is what he Lord was addressing.   Then he said to His disciples " but be not like them for only one is your Father."

Quote from: mclees8 on Fri Feb 26, 2016 - 09:58:31

Quote from: winsome on Wed Feb 24, 2016 - 06:06:52

Quote from: kensington on Tue Feb 23, 2016 - 16:04:04

Quote from: winsome on Tue Feb 23, 2016 - 08:42:41

The problem with the "call no man father" catholic bashing is that it is based on the fallacy of equivocation.

Jesus said "call no man father"

But we don't call our priests, or the Pope, father, we address them as father. It's not the same.

 

Amazing example of twisting your doctrine to explain away something Jesus clearly said.  Best example of a lie I have ever seen.  Bravo!

Tell me, when you speak to your real father,  what do you call him when you address him?

Quote from: AVZ on Wed Feb 24, 2016 - 05:05:10

So according to catholic logic, I could address you as "fool" and not call you one?

It's about the meaning of  "call" as a verb.

Do you scoffers understand what the fallacy of equivocation is? Probably not!
It's using a word in two different senses while appearing to use it in the same sense.

Here is a very obvious example:
Suppose you have a talent for sketching people with a pencil on paper and make very good likenesses. I could say to you "You shouldn't draw people because the Bible says that it is God who draws people (John 6:44, John 12:32)"

This equivocation is what is happening here.


There are several places in scripture where people address someome as father.
For example:
"I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning." (1Jn 2:13)

"Blessed is the kingdom of our father David that is coming!"(Mk 11:10)

See also Matt 10:21-37, 15:4-6, Lk 16:24, Jas 2:21. Mt 23:32, Acts 7:2 etc.

From these we must conclude that Jesus did not mean call no man father in the sense of naming or addressing them as "father" or scripture would be contradicting itself.

The Collins Concise Dictionary gives 28 [yes, twenty eight] different meanings to the verb "call".

Which one is meant when we say Jesus said "call no man father"?.

The greek word for call in the sense of to name or to address someone is λέγω or εἴρηκα as in John 15;15

No longer do I call (λέγω) you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called (εἴρηκα) you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.

However the greek word translated as "call" in Mt 23:9 is καλέσητε and means to summon, to call forth, invite as in:
"Go therefore to the thoroughfares, and invite (καλέσατε) to the marriage feast as many as you find." (Mt 22:9)
"Then Herod summoned (καλέσας) the wise men secretly and ascertained from them what time the star appeared" (Mt 2:7)

Have you ever thought about pride of titles  Such as Jesus said they love to be called Rabbi Rabbi  when in the market place , or any place for that matter.   Religious pride of position and recognition is what he Lord was addressing.   Then he said to His disciples " but be not like them for only one is your Father."

Have you ever thought about reading my posts and addressing what I write?

P.S. if you quote or reference scripture it's polite to give a proper reference - chapter and verse.

Quote from: skeeter on Thu Feb 25, 2016 - 18:56:39

Quote from: Ladonia on Thu Feb 25, 2016 - 11:11:54

Quote from: AVZ on Wed Feb 24, 2016 - 21:26:38

Quote from: Ladonia on Wed Feb 24, 2016 - 20:53:58
Yes, we submit to the Church established here on earth by Jesus Christ himself and it's leaders as per the Scriptures. They are here for our religious instruction and teaching the truth, not what you and your faulty biblical interpretations constantly spew out. And there is no adoration of them from me here, just respect as God instructs me to have towards those whom He has placed over me.

No, you submit to the Pope personally (even if he was Satan incarnate), and you don't submit to "whom" but to "who"...singular.
History shows us that there have been various very evil popes, to which you personally submit yourself and who you call "Holy Father".

Don't try to tell me what I believe and who I submit to. I reject any evil person, be they Pope or President. In my lifetime there have been no evil Popes, just good God fearing bishops of the Church leading their flock.

your religion tells us who you submit to.  doesn't sound like you want to claim it tho.

I said we totally submit to the Church and the Bishop who leads it and there have been no evil Pope's in my lifetime - I can make the distinction.

Quote from: Ladonia on Sat Feb 27, 2016 - 19:17:34

Quote from: skeeter on Thu Feb 25, 2016 - 18:56:39

Quote from: Ladonia on Thu Feb 25, 2016 - 11:11:54

Quote from: AVZ on Wed Feb 24, 2016 - 21:26:38

Quote from: Ladonia on Wed Feb 24, 2016 - 20:53:58
Yes, we submit to the Church established here on earth by Jesus Christ himself and it's leaders as per the Scriptures. They are here for our religious instruction and teaching the truth, not what you and your faulty biblical interpretations constantly spew out. And there is no adoration of them from me here, just respect as God instructs me to have towards those whom He has placed over me.

No, you submit to the Pope personally (even if he was Satan incarnate), and you don't submit to "whom" but to "who"...singular.
History shows us that there have been various very evil popes, to which you personally submit yourself and who you call "Holy Father".

Don't try to tell me what I believe and who I submit to. I reject any evil person, be they Pope or President. In my lifetime there have been no evil Popes, just good God fearing bishops of the Church leading their flock.

your religion tells us who you submit to.  doesn't sound like you want to claim it tho.

I said we totally submit to the Church and the Bishop who leads it and there have been no evil Pope's in my lifetime - I can make the distinction.

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/pope-francis-italy-bonino/2016/02/27/id/716397/?ns_mail_uid=53653216&ns_mail_job=1657253_02272016&s=al&dkt_nbr=lidee6bk

Sure about that?

Quote from: Ladonia on Sat Feb 27, 2016 - 19:17:34
I said we totally submit to the Church and the Bishop who leads it and there have been no evil Pope's in my lifetime - I can make the distinction.

I (and all born again Christians) totally submit to our Lord Jesus Christ.

do you get the difference?

Quote from: skeeter on Sun Feb 28, 2016 - 06:30:06

Quote from: Ladonia on Sat Feb 27, 2016 - 19:17:34
I said we totally submit to the Church and the Bishop who leads it and there have been no evil Pope's in my lifetime - I can make the distinction.

I (and all born again Christians) totally submit to our Lord Jesus Christ.

do you get the difference?

Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. (Heb 13:17

Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to praise those who do right. (1Pet 2:13-14)

Likewise you that are younger be subject to the elders. (1Pet 5:5)

Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ. (Eph 5:21)

Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. (Eph 5:22)

Quote from: winsome on Sun Feb 28, 2016 - 08:41:50

Quote from: skeeter on Sun Feb 28, 2016 - 06:30:06

Quote from: Ladonia on Sat Feb 27, 2016 - 19:17:34
I said we totally submit to the Church and the Bishop who leads it and there have been no evil Pope's in my lifetime - I can make the distinction.

I (and all born again Christians) totally submit to our Lord Jesus Christ.

do you get the difference?

Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. (Heb 13:17

Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to praise those who do right. (1Pet 2:13-14)

Likewise you that are younger be subject to the elders. (1Pet 5:5)

Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ. (Eph 5:21)

Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. (Eph 5:22)

taking things out of context can allow you to use scripture to support almost anything...

how about reading all of Heb 13?  maybe try reading Heb 13 starting at vs 7?

"7 Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. 9 Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them."

and with Eph 5:22  -  why post vs 22 about wives?  are you married to the RCC?    you skipped vs 24

Ephesians 5:24
Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

the RCC isn't subject to Christ - and neither are catholics


why use 1Pet 5:5   -   the younger vs the elder?  so, if my pastor is older then I should just believe anything he says?     if I have a younger pastor,  then I shouldn't listen to anything a he says?



Eph 5:21  -  "Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ."

does this mean then that you should be subject to me?



do you have any verses telling us to follow laws that go against God's?
since abortion is legal in the US, should we just pick and choose which pregnancy to go with?  so then it is ok to get an abortion?



Colossians 2

"20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations, 21 "Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,"

22 which all concern things which perish with the using - according to the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh."

The greatest danger and greatest evil today in the RCC is the blind being subject to the blind. Using ignorance to cause many to follow after unbiblical doctrines and using forms of outward religion. To ignore Gods word on the one hand then use it as a convenience on the other. Failure to really know Gods word and be willingly ignorant when it coms to the things of Babylon. Political Babylon , religious Babylon, and commercial Babylon.  To believe James whom you lean upon, but ignore him when he says friendship with world is enmity again God. 

Quote from: skeeter on Sun Feb 28, 2016 - 15:24:20

Quote from: winsome on Sun Feb 28, 2016 - 08:41:50

Quote from: skeeter on Sun Feb 28, 2016 - 06:30:06

Quote from: Ladonia on Sat Feb 27, 2016 - 19:17:34
I said we totally submit to the Church and the Bishop who leads it and there have been no evil Pope's in my lifetime - I can make the distinction.

I (and all born again Christians) totally submit to our Lord Jesus Christ.

do you get the difference?

Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. (Heb 13:17

Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to praise those who do right. (1Pet 2:13-14)

Likewise you that are younger be subject to the elders. (1Pet 5:5)

Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ. (Eph 5:21)

Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. (Eph 5:22)

taking things out of context can allow you to use scripture to support almost anything...

Sure you can.

Quote from: skeeter on Sun Feb 28, 2016 - 15:24:20

how about reading all of Heb 13?  maybe try reading Heb 13 starting at vs 7?

"7 Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. 9 Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them."

and with Eph 5:22  -  why post vs 22 about wives?  are you married to the RCC?    you skipped vs 24

Ephesians 5:24
Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

the RCC isn't subject to Christ - and neither are catholics


why use 1Pet 5:5   -   the younger vs the elder?  so, if my pastor is older then I should just believe anything he says?     if I have a younger pastor,  then I shouldn't listen to anything a he says?



Eph 5:21  -  "Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ."

does this mean then that you should be subject to me?



do you have any verses telling us to follow laws that go against God's?
since abortion is legal in the US, should we just pick and choose which pregnancy to go with?  so then it is ok to get an abortion?



Colossians 2

"20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations, 21 "Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,"

22 which all concern things which perish with the using - according to the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh."

And you've just proved it!

Quote from: winsome on Mon Feb 29, 2016 - 04:12:51

Quote from: skeeter on Sun Feb 28, 2016 - 15:24:20

how about reading all of Heb 13?  maybe try reading Heb 13 starting at vs 7?

"7 Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. 9 Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them."

and with Eph 5:22  -  why post vs 22 about wives?  are you married to the RCC?    you skipped vs 24

Ephesians 5:24
Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

the RCC isn't subject to Christ - and neither are catholics


why use 1Pet 5:5   -   the younger vs the elder?  so, if my pastor is older then I should just believe anything he says?     if I have a younger pastor,  then I shouldn't listen to anything a he says?



Eph 5:21  -  "Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ."

does this mean then that you should be subject to me?



do you have any verses telling us to follow laws that go against God's?
since abortion is legal in the US, should we just pick and choose which pregnancy to go with?  so then it is ok to get an abortion?



Colossians 2

"20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations, 21 "Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,"

22 which all concern things which perish with the using - according to the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh."

And you've just proved it!

good!  I'm glad it's finally sinking in to you.

Quote from: skeeter on Mon Feb 29, 2016 - 13:21:20

Quote from: winsome on Mon Feb 29, 2016 - 04:12:51

Quote from: skeeter on Sun Feb 28, 2016 - 15:24:20

how about reading all of Heb 13?  maybe try reading Heb 13 starting at vs 7?

"7 Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. 9 Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them."

and with Eph 5:22  -  why post vs 22 about wives?  are you married to the RCC?    you skipped vs 24

Ephesians 5:24
Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

the RCC isn't subject to Christ - and neither are catholics


why use 1Pet 5:5   -   the younger vs the elder?  so, if my pastor is older then I should just believe anything he says?     if I have a younger pastor,  then I shouldn't listen to anything a he says?



Eph 5:21  -  "Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ."

does this mean then that you should be subject to me?



do you have any verses telling us to follow laws that go against God's?
since abortion is legal in the US, should we just pick and choose which pregnancy to go with?  so then it is ok to get an abortion?



Colossians 2

"20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations, 21 "Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,"

22 which all concern things which perish with the using - according to the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh."

And you've just proved it!

good!  I'm glad it's finally sinking in to you.

Yes, when you take things out of context you can prove almost anything.  A text used out of context is a pretext.

You should remeber that

Quote from: skeeter on Sun Feb 28, 2016 - 06:30:06

Quote from: Ladonia on Sat Feb 27, 2016 - 19:17:34
I said we totally submit to the Church and the Bishop who leads it and there have been no evil Pope's in my lifetime - I can make the distinction.

I (and all born again Christians) totally submit to our Lord Jesus Christ.

do you get the difference?

So you say. Why then do you reject the Church which He established here on earth to continue on with the mission of preaching the gospel?

Quote from: winsome on Mon Feb 29, 2016 - 13:34:52

Quote from: skeeter on Mon Feb 29, 2016 - 13:21:20

Quote from: winsome on Mon Feb 29, 2016 - 04:12:51

Quote from: skeeter on Sun Feb 28, 2016 - 15:24:20

how about reading all of Heb 13?  maybe try reading Heb 13 starting at vs 7?

"7 Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. 9 Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them."

and with Eph 5:22  -  why post vs 22 about wives?  are you married to the RCC?    you skipped vs 24

Ephesians 5:24
Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

the RCC isn't subject to Christ - and neither are catholics


why use 1Pet 5:5   -   the younger vs the elder?  so, if my pastor is older then I should just believe anything he says?     if I have a younger pastor,  then I shouldn't listen to anything a he says?



Eph 5:21  -  "Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ."

does this mean then that you should be subject to me?



do you have any verses telling us to follow laws that go against God's?
since abortion is legal in the US, should we just pick and choose which pregnancy to go with?  so then it is ok to get an abortion?



Colossians 2

"20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations, 21 "Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,"

22 which all concern things which perish with the using - according to the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh."

And you've just proved it!

good!  I'm glad it's finally sinking in to you.

Yes, when you take things out of context you can prove almost anything.  A text used out of context is a pretext.

You should remeber that

I'm very careful to post in context. I can see why you are so familiar with the pretext tho.    I most often find that catholics do that.  I can't remember when a catholic posted a vs to support one of their beliefs when it wasn't taken out of context.
it's a continual battle for catholics.  I don't think they know how to tell if it's in context or not.

Quote from: Ladonia on Mon Feb 29, 2016 - 22:36:48

Quote from: skeeter on Sun Feb 28, 2016 - 06:30:06

Quote from: Ladonia on Sat Feb 27, 2016 - 19:17:34
I said we totally submit to the Church and the Bishop who leads it and there have been no evil Pope's in my lifetime - I can make the distinction.

I (and all born again Christians) totally submit to our Lord Jesus Christ.

do you get the difference?

So you say. Why then do you reject the Church which He established here on earth to continue on with the mission of preaching the gospel?

the RCC wasn't established by Jesus.  Jesus has nothing to do with false teachings or false teachers.
the RCC does not continue in the truth of His gospel.  They don't believe it or understand it. 

His church is the body of believers - those born again (which isn't water baptism).

OOPs wrong thread

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Leonardo_da_Vinci_-_Last_Supper_(copy)_-_WGA12732.jpg