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For Jaime, 4WD , Yogi Bear, Alan and Grams, and all

In the thread "the baptism in MT 28:19 I was kind of asked about my beliefs on the subject at hand, as was Grams.

I said I understand where you baptize believers are coming from and I also said I understand where Grams is coming from and was asked if
I can explain Grams side of things.....

I have written a very long explanatory reply so I am going to send it in sections.

Here is section #1.

You say and quote the scriptures that say you must be baptized.

For the sake of convenience we will agree that when baptism is mentioned it means by submersion.

You also want to know why Grams and I have maintained that after we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior we do not need to be baptized.

I will try to explain my view on that, which may not be the way Grams views things exactly, as I do not know Grams, nor she me so we cannot know what thoughts each other has.

But before I go into my reasoning I think we "Protestants" agree that we do not "NEED" to do works to be saved. It is not forbidden that we do any works but not a command.  For myself, any works that I may do are because I believe them to be the right thing to do not only to glorify my Lord but just to be a decent human being. I do not view them as works, I view them as part of living my life.

You are well versed on the Bible verse Ephesians  2: 8-9 - Grams has seen to it that you are, even if  you were not before.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For the sake of argument, I want to stop with this verse, for the moment.

Seems fairly straight forward.

Ephesians starts out by saying:

2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

In other words... for lack of a better explanation... one could say was made alive, OR born again. (Let us not argue this point at the moment, please)

Vs5  goes on... Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

This continues the theme that they were brought out of the death caused by their sins and into life with Christ......  again suggesting born again..... and further states  by grace ye are saved;


Continuing verses, KJV

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; (bolding mine)

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Now, lest you find the last 4 verses difficult to understand from KJV here are the same 4 from NIV

13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,

15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, ( bolding mine)

16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

KJV:  reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross
NIV:  reconcile both of them to God through the cross

There is zero mention of a water baptism, here at all.

A slight side bar.....-

For the moment let us consider this "works" thing.

Ephesians 2 : 8-9 states emphatically

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Yet in the book of James 1: 1

James describes himself as a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ

1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

I have read that this James... the epistle James is/was James the brother of Jesus or James the Just
I would think that a brother of Jesus might have a wee bit more insight into Jesus' thoughts 
so when James says

James 2: 20-24

20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he  was called the Friend of God.

24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


Would you agree, based on this , that works is as important as anything in being saved?

Or is the Bible contradicting itself?

Actually I feel this is a prime example of how translations, over the years can and have led  multiple readers to come to differing conclusions.

To be continued.

Section #2

Back to the subject at hand:

Jesus was talking to Nicodemus, in John 3

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Yes Jesus did say that "Except a man be born of water" but he did not specifically say baptism. It is possible He was referring to the water of a woman that breaks just before a baby is born.

Although he may have been referring to a baptism, because while Jesus walked the earth they baptized those who wanted to follow Jesus.

It just is not clear...

Then this followed in verses 14 - 18

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Out of Jesus' mouth here there just is NO mention of water baptism.
___
Romans 10: 9-10 tells us

9 That if thou  shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus ,and shalt believe in thine heart  that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Here following are a few verses from the King James with no mention of baptism with being saved.  There may be more, but for times sake I only posted the following.

Acts 16:31
And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Romans 10:9-10
Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 10:13
For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

John 8:24
I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins."

John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

1 Corinthians 15:1-4
Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,

Matthew 24:13
But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:21
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Acts 16:30-31
Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes Him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Part #3


I consider that when Jesus actually walked the earth there would have, of necessity, been a different standard and set of rules, as it were, to be saved.

After all, He was setting up new teachings and undersandings
to a people ,who at the time, who had fairly recently learned of the man Jesus and what He was capable of and could do and was developing into followers wanting the salvation that was being taught. These people, at least the Jewish of them, also were accustomed to baptisms for the washing of their sins... long before Jesus ever entered the picture.

These baptisms were not the same as Christians view them today.

They were Tevilah, a Jewish purification ritual of immersing in water which is required for, among other things, conversion.

Because Tevilah was among conversions, it would naturally follow that those who were being converted from Judaism into Christianity or even from agnostic/Pagan Gentiles into Christianity would follow this as part of the normal course especially when Jesus was still alive

And I would be willing to bet that those who were familiar with rites and rituals in everything in their lives from the command of circumcision on the 8th day, to how to prepare for a feast of celebration they surly could
never conceive that just listening to a mortal man would have been enough...


In the Holy Bible you may argue that among the first commands of Jesus, after his resurrection is found in Luke.

Luke 16, to be exact....does have Jesus telling the 11 he appeared to after his resurrection to...........

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

THEN He further states....

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
I first have to ask you , since it is written here that Jesus also said, after the believing and being baptized that these signs will follow them that believe.......

How many of you have cast out devils, or speak with new tongues, or have taken up serpents or had a poisones drink and survived since you first believe and were baptized?

SO upon some further investigation I have found that

In the NIV...................
"[The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have verses 9–20.]"
from my online Bible study

So this is not necessarily a valid statement or command. It is what someone deemed to put in because they assumed that it was necessary after Jesus shed his blood for us.... Because they did it before He did that and declared "It is finished."

Thus Jesus died.

And Jesus  said it is finished

Jesus  meant his work on earth but at same time he meant the end of the presented plan for salvation , to date, which He was sent to earth for... and so when He was born of the virgin, was crucified, buried and rose the third day... and actually came back for a scant few to see as a witness.

He did not mean that salvation was ended. He meant that he had finished the last step on earth as a mortal to implement the reason he was sent to earth


Can the bible be in error. NO, but man's interpretation of the bible can be because of other men before them, and other men before those reading something and seeing something different.

example....

Jesus was crucified and died and was buried.

We are told that he rose the 3rd day .

Jesus told us, In Mathew 12:40

For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Many, if not most Christian faiths celebrated Easter Sunday as Resuretion Day.
These very same Christian faiths also celebrate, ( I use that word loosely) the Friday before Easter Sunday as Good Friday in that they believe that Jesus was crucified on that day.

I submit they are wrong....

Jesus told us he would be in the heart of the earth 3 days, and 3 nights.

From Friday afternoon, when they say he was crucified, unti Sunday daybreak, when the women found the tomb empty, there is at best only 1 day and a few hours of Friday crucifiction time....
Not 3....And before I go off on an explanation of my beliefs on this I will get back to the subject at hand.

Part #4


Now many of you will point out correctly that Paul was in fact Baptized.

I have this, but do not remember where I have it from.... I read it online somewhere.

I have copied and pasted it. It is another's work  possibly Berean, but to save time I
am not going to reword it as this is getting far too long to begin with

ANSWER: Paul can rightfully be called an apostle because he fulfilled the same three basic requirements the specially-selected twelve original disciples met. After the death of Judas, the church (totaling about 120) met in Jerusalem to decide who among them would be uniquely qualified to replace him (Acts 1). Those to be considered for this awesome responsibility had to have been personally called by Christ, taught by him directly for several years, and seen him alive after his resurrection (Acts 1:17, 22, 25).
Saul of Tarsus, whose name would later be changed to Paul, was initially a zealous persecutor of those who believed Christ was the Messiah (Acts 9). While traveling to Damascus in 33 A.D., three years after Jesus was resurrected, he was was miraculously confronted by the Lord and brought to repentance (verses 3 to 6). While he stayed in Damascus, a believer named Ananias received a vision that revealed why Paul was called and chosen to ultimately take on the responsiblity of an apostle.
15. But the Lord said to him (Ananias), "Go, for this man (Paul) is a chosen vessel to Me, to bear My name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel; 16. For I will show him what great things he must suffer for My name" (Acts 9:15 - 16, HBFV throughout)
After Paul was baptized in Damascus he began to powerful preach that Christ was the Son of God (Acts 9:20 - 22). Death threats from Jews living in the city, who rejected his message, drove him to flee to Arabia. During his three years of exile in Arabia he was personally taught by Jesus (Acts 9:20 - 25, Galatians 1:11 - 12, 15 - 18). At this point in his life he fulfilled the same basic criteria the original disciples did in regard to being considered an apostle.

How can we know for a fact that Pauls Baptism was not a form of being done to him to separate him from common man by the Lord?
After Paul was baptized in Damascus he began to powerful preach that Christ was the Son of God (Acts 9:20 - 22).


Additional evidence
Additional Biblical evidence exists that shows, and reaffirms, Paul's calling as an apostle. In Acts 13 the church in Syrian Antioch is told by God to "separate both Barnabas and Saul to Me for the work to which I have called them" (Acts 13:2). The church soon lays hands on the two men and sends them out to evangelize (verses 3 - 4). After this event Luke, the writer of the book of Acts, labels both men as apostles (Acts 14:14).
Paul himself, in many of his writings, asserts his right to be called an apostle (1Corinthians 1:1, 2Corinthians 11:5, Galatians 1:1, Colossians 1:1, 1Timothy 1:1, etc.). Defending his unique calling to the churches in the Roman province of Galatia he writes the following.
1. Paul, an apostle, not sent from men nor made by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father . . . 11. But I certify to you, brethren, that the gospel that was preached by me is not according to man; 12. Because neither did I receive it from man, nor was I taught it by man; rather, it was by the revelation of Jesus Christ . . . 15. But when it pleased God, Who selected me from my mother's womb, and called me by His grace, 16. To reveal His own Son in me, in order that I might preach Him among the Gentiles . . . (Galatians 1:11 - 12, 15 - 16)

If Paul was not taught directly by Jesus, and by his own admission was not taught by man but by revelation of Jesus is it not possible that Paul, having been baptised himself, after his acceptance assumed that wass proper and was part of the revelation?

Is it not possible that such a baptism was meant, after Jesus' death,  and declaration of it is finished, that such a baptism as Paul received was because he was annointed by God himself?
If  baptism , which was done before He died, was still needed then He had
no reason to have died by crucifiction.  He could have continued to minister and build His own church upon His preachings with instruction to come to that church for your baptism or have only those who were or will be ordained into his church perform such.

But he did die. A horrible, torturous death.  He died for you, and me and all true believers.

Do we believe 100% the same. NO. But we do believe that Jesus died for us.

It is anew and water baptisms are not needed IF you have fully accepted Jesus  and put your faith and trust in Him

The command to be baptized was given AFTER christ's death and before his ascension. John's baptism was before Christ's death. Everything in Acts after his ascension was new covenant baptism NOT John's baptism. I think that is where some confusion may lie. John's baptism did not convey the gift of the Holy spirit. Way different than baptism in Christ's name.

The 3000 in Acts 2 undoubtedly believed that Christ died for their sins. Peter commanded them to be repent and be baptized in christ's name for what? For Forgiveness of sin and the indwelling gift of the Holy spirit. I also have no doubts that they confessed Jesus is Lord with their lips.

Quote from: Ginger Rella on Thu Oct 19, 2017 - 09:19:02How many of you have cast out devils, or speak with new tongues, or have taken up serpents or had a poisonous drink and survived since you first believe and were baptized?

I have and most every other child of God has, whether or not they know it to be so. Would you like to know the sense this is so?

Dear soul, I truly trust that your thread will serve you well to the glory of Jesus Christ, I truly do. RB

Ginger Rella,

I fully appreciate the time and effort you put into the postings above.  I won't bother to address each and every point you presented.  However, there is not a single passage of Scripture that you posted that conflicts in any way with the passages of Scripture dealing with baptism and the connection of baptism with salvation.  There are no contradictions between what the Bible says about being baptized for the forgiveness of sins and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and any of the references you posted.  If someone tells you that you need to have fuel to start your car and someone else tells you that you need to have a starter switch to start your car, there is not contradiction.  Neither statement denies the other one.  Both are true.  They are complementary statements.  Such are all the passages that speak of baptism, faith, repentance, confession etc. concerning being saved.

Now if you can find a statement in the Bible (the NT) that says that baptism is not necessary to be saved, you might have a point.  But in fact there is no such statement.

Rella, I too appreciate the effort you put forth in this thread. It represents lots of serious thought.

Quote from: RB on Thu Oct 19, 2017 - 10:18:12
I have and most every other child of God has, whether or not they know it to be so. Would you like to know the sense this is so?

Dear soul, I truly trust that your thread will serve you well to the glory of Jesus Christ, I truly do. RB

Red, you have piqued my interest. Please elaborate when you have time.

[[ Now if you can find a statement in the Bible (the NT) that says that baptism is not necessary to be saved, you might have a point.  But in fact there is no such statement.]]



9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Baptism is not a work. It doesn't EARN or MERIT any part of salvation. Neither is confessing with our lips or repentance. It's all salvation by grace through faith.

Quote from: grams on Thu Oct 19, 2017 - 15:01:239 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Dear Grams, that verse does not cancel out water baptism as a channel of a salvation that believers enjoy in being baptized into the religion of Jesus Christ, per Jesus' own teaching from Mark 16:16. If you believe that water baptism is not necessary, or something that one can take OR leave, then you by your own confession show lack of faith, and without question, lack of biblical knowledge. There IS a sense that water baptism DOES indeed bring "a salvation" to an understanding heart, that those who have never been baptized CANNOT enjoy, IMPOSSIBLE~or Mark 16:16 spoken of by Jesus Christ should be penknife from the holy scriptures. Peter DID NOT suggest that Cornelius and his household should consider baptism, BUT he COMMANDED them to be so! Every believer post Calvary, who are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ enjoy a glorious salvation that even Abraham DID NOT enjoy, impossible dear soul.

Red, I would differ somewhat with you in that baptism baptizes one INTO Christ himself, not into the "religion" of Christ.

Gal. 3:27

Quote from: Jaime on Thu Oct 19, 2017 - 12:07:44Red, you have piqued my interest. Please elaborate when you have time.

I will in the morning, the Lord willing, before I leave to go out of town until Monday.

Quote from: Jaime on Thu Oct 19, 2017 - 15:09:30
Baptism is not a work. It doesn't EARN or MERIT any part of salvation. Neither is confessing with our lips or repentance. It's all salvation by grace through faith.

Amen Jaime.  There are few things that have been infused into the language of Christian theology that are more divisive and destructive than that concerning the idea that believing, repenting, confessing, or being baptized are works of the sort that Paul speaks of in declaring that salvation is by grace not works.  Even a cursory reading of Scripture, without the presumptive bias of the Lutherism faith-only crowd, gives one the proper sense that "works" that Paul is speaking of are works of law.  That bias drives the narrative to the false concept of monergistic salvation.  Other biases enter into that narrative, but the false perception of works being other than works of law are paramount to the failure to give baptism its proper place in the salvation process.

Quote from: Jaime on Thu Oct 19, 2017 - 15:27:35Red, I would differ somewhat with you in that baptism baptizes INTO Christ himself, not into the religion of Christ.

I'm not surprised and I am sure you do, maybe that's a subject for another day.

Brother, I will say this for now~we have never been OUTSIDE of Jesus Christ, NEVER. We were chosen IN HIM from the foundation of the world, and were IN HIM while he lived in this world, and were IN HIM when he died on the cross; and were IN him when he arose from the dead and we NOW sit with him in at God's right hand, or at the HIGHEST place of exaltation and authority.....that is.... legally, and as far as God is concerned! Read carefully Ephesians one AND two, and see if this is not so.

Baptism identifies us with him IN THIS WORLD as his children. More later...RB

Scriptures say we are baptized INTO Christ, clothing ourselves with him. We musta been OUT OF him, naked or unclothed of his salvation prior.

Quote from: Jaime on Thu Oct 19, 2017 - 15:41:53
Scriptures says we are baptized INTO Christ, clothing ourselves with him. We musta been OUT OF him, naked or unclothed of his salvation prior.

Good afternoon my brothers and sisters...its time to relax and rest. RB

10 4 Red. Thanks for your input.

Quote from: Jaime on Thu Oct 19, 2017 - 15:09:30
Baptism is not a work. It doesn't EARN or MERIT any part of salvation. Neither is confessing with our lips or repentance. It's all salvation by grace through faith.

It's all salvation by grace through faith

Baptism ......... doesn't EARN or MERIT any part of salvation

Yet according to many scriptural verses that have been quoted in the various baptism threads, along with those of you all who do the quoting of such it is commanded.

Guess what I want to know is if you do not get baptized, by submersion, after accepting what Jesus did for you... does that truly mean that you are not saved.... period? And that you cannot be?

And if you can be saved without getting baptized, by submersion, after accepting what Jesus did for you... is there any true harm if you do not?

All I or anyone else can do is search the scriptures. I can't send anyone to hell one way or the other.

If I lead someone to Christ we study all the salvation scriptures. It usually involves 3 or 4 sessions. I don't drag them kicking and screaming to the baptistry. It's their decision. In fact most of my study method with them is reading with them and asking what they think. If they express a desire to be baptized, we do it. I DO NOT present a checklist. Some may do that.

I too appreciate all of the thought that went into this thread, my thoughts on Eph 2:8 are that it was never intended to be a "how to" verse, it doesn't tell us how to be saved, it tells why we are being saved. It most certainly doesn't exclude baptism, repentance, or confessing Christ as tenets of our salvation, all things that the early church insisted upon.

Very good post Alan. Thanks

Ginger Rella

I appreciate your question made in good taste. You seem to be thoughtful and well versed in the Scriptures so it is a pleasure to converse with you. I also had the same question as yours some years ago. How can it be that we are saved by faith and not of works, but at the same time, be saved by baptism?

I had to ask myself why, or what is the reason that God saves us? Answer, because we believe, and put our faith in what Christ did for us. I think you would agree that that is the only reason God saves us. Does He save us because we obeyed a command and got baptized? No. To me, that would conflict with Eph 2:8 and many other statements in the NT. If baptism does not save because we have done a work of obedience, or showed our faith or submission, or kept a law, then how does it save us? It needs no explanation. It is like asking how does a marriage ceremony marry us. Everyone of all times and geographical reasons understands that ceremonies are the mark in time for when a person changes status, but not usually, the reason for the change in status. In other words, the couple got married because they were attracted to each other, not because they came to the wedding ceremony.

Is baptism essential for salvation? There is no clear Biblical answer. On a practical and personal level, if one said he believed, but refused  baptism, I would question his belief and commitment. On a Biblical and theological level, my opinion is "No". That would make the ceremony of baptism of equal importance to faith in Christ and his sacrifice. If baptism is essential, it would mean that we are saved because we did a work of obedience, which I think would conflict with Eph 2:8.

Quote from: Norton on Thu Oct 19, 2017 - 19:26:48
Ginger Rella

I appreciate your question made in good taste. You seem to be thoughtful and well versed in the Scriptures so it is a pleasure to converse with you. I also had the same question as yours some years ago. How can it be that we are saved by faith and not of works, but at the same time, be saved by baptism?

I had to ask myself why, or what is the reason that God saves us? Answer, because we believe, and put our faith in what Christ did for us. I think you would agree that that is the only reason God saves us. Does He save us because we obeyed a command and got baptized? No. To me, that would conflict with Eph 2:8 and many other statements in the NT. If baptism does not save because we have done a work of obedience, or showed our faith or submission, or kept a law, then how does it save us? It needs no explanation. It is like asking how does a marriage ceremony marry us. Everyone of all times and geographical reasons understands that ceremonies are the mark in time for when a person changes status, but not usually, the reason for the change in status. In other words, the couple got married because they were attracted to each other, not because they came to the wedding ceremony.

Is baptism essential for salvation? There is no clear Biblical answer. On a practical and personal level, if one said he believed, but refused  baptism, I would question his belief and commitment. On a Biblical and theological level, my opinion is "No". That would make the ceremony of baptism of equal importance to faith in Christ and his sacrifice. If baptism is essential, it would mean that we are saved because we did a work of obedience, which I think would conflict with Eph 2:8.

Thank you,

That makes perfect sense to me.

Norton, baptism is as Peter said in 1Peter 3:21, it is a calling upon the Lord for a clean conscience. THAT is what saves us.

Quote from: Jaime on Thu Oct 19, 2017 - 19:47:32
Norton, baptism is as Peter said in 1Peter 3:21, it is a calling upon the Lord for a clean conscience. THAT is what saves us.

Yes, it is an appeal to the Lord for a clean conscience. Maybe it would not be too picky of me to say that it is actually the Lord's answer to the appeal that saves you. His answer is "Your sins are washed away".

Norton, your problem is you do not understand what works is meant when Paul talks about works. The Ephesians passage is talking about works of the law of Moses just as he addressed in Galatians.You take it out of context and try to apply it in a manner not addressed in such passages. Many a scripture talks of our need to obey the gospel. Jesus said plainly that if we love him we will keep his word.

Baptism is not a work no more than believing is and we are commanded to believe but you have no problem with that we are commanded to repent and you have no problem with that not being a work but you can not see that it is God doing the transforming work in baptism not man.

Anyway long story short until we can get to the truth of what Paul means by works we will never get to the truth of Ephesians 2:8  To many of us do not understand the works issue because of the false teaching on it. Salvation is conditional or all would be saved because it is Gods desire that all come to salvation. We all know this so we must get real and get down to what is really being said.

Rella, You have posted a lot to deal with and in such it appears you are trying to say that this day one needs not to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

If that is the intent of the long post then would you please answer me this.

Just how do you read Acts 2:38 and is it no longer in play or how do you read it to say baptism in Christ name is not needed? How does it become a work of man and if it is not meant to mean what it does the way it is written then how is it to be read?

I know this is not a one verse tells all but it is defiantly the starter.

Norton, of course it is God's answer to your appeal that saves you. But the point is You must make the appeal which is clearly baptism, the true "sinner's prayer". I see NO conflict in that with Eph 2:8. I would be worried if I did. There is no conflict. Scripture is to be read and digested CUMULATIVELY. Not a continual comparison of alpha verses. its a story, not a collection of prooftexts to be indexed and catalogued and pulled out like a sword from a scabbard. The story of salvation is not contained in one particular verse. A lot of individual verses DO make up the story though.

Moreover, if we describe everything and anything aside from simply "believing" as works, what are Christians called to do in their lives? Shouldn't they just rest on their belief and wait it out? Certainly makes me wonder about the other 7956 verses in the NT that seem to describe much more than doing nothing.

Eph 2:8 cannot stand alone. 

Quote from: Ginger Rella on Thu Oct 19, 2017 - 16:29:54It's all salvation by grace through faith

Rella, please carefully listen and ponder what I'm going to say.

The word "salvation" is used by the majority of professing Christians in a very "limited sense"~ which has kept many from seeing certain truths and has allowed/caused divisions among even true believers, which could be avoided if they would search and see if the words save/saved/salvation are used in different senses. The search would be very rewarding and would keep us from being less divided, and more merciful toward those who are still searching for truth.

Much of the word of God is hidden from us UNTIL we learn the gift of rightly dividing the word of truth, and giving the scriptures their proper sense SO THAT we can understand what we are reading.

Quote from: the "aged" apostle Paul2nd Timothy 2:15~"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

Studying is a work and it IS very weariness to our flesh, very much so, and this is not my personal opinion but from the wisest man outside of Jesus Christ that ever lived in this world.

Quote from: King SolomonEcclesiastes 12:12~"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh."

Yet we must apply ourselves to this if we ever hope to come to the knowledge of the truth. Talking politics is much easier, but less profitable for sure. That being said let us follow Nehemiah and Esther for by doing so, we shall in due time begin to see the light on whatever we are seriously considering. No good thing will God withhold from those who seek the truth as a man would hidden treasure.

Quote from: NehemiahNehemiah 8:8~"So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading."

Dear Rella, I trust that we can help you to understand the reading of the holy scriptures. Let us try to do so for your spiritual benefit.

Quote from: Rella
Baptism ......... doesn't EARN or MERIT any part of salvation

You are using the word salvation in a very limited sense meaning saved from sin and condemnation, correct? Then you are absolutely correct that being baptized in water does not legally put our sins away, that is done solely by the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ~or else Christ died in vain. It is the BLOOD of Christ that atones for our sins apart from our works~when Paul said it is the blood of Christ, then we understand clearly that that INCLUDES HIS LIFE, DEATH, AND RESURRECTION. So, without writing a book, water baptism does not earn or merit being set free from sin and condemnation, I fully agree.

Quote from: RellaYet according to many scriptural verses that have been quoted in the various baptism threads, along with those of you all who do the quoting of such it is commanded.

It IS a command not an option is clearly seen in the scriptures.

Quote from: PeterActs 10:34-48~"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days."

Reading Acts 10 distinctly we learn some important truths. Peter confesses that he understood that Cornelius fear and worked righteousness before he had arrived~and Cornelius' fear of God and his good works were clear evidence to Peter that this man was a born again child of God BEFORE his arrival. This cannot be disputed without corrupting God's word and rejecting truth clearly presented to us. The verb tense is very clear~

Quote from: Peter"Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, IS accepted with him.

Not will be accepted but IS accepted already. Yet, they need a salvation that they were missing, a salvation of a MORE PERFECT understanding of this message:

Quote from: Peter"How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. "

Also they needed to hear

Quote from: Peter"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

"shall receive remission of sins"~That is, the KNOWLEDGE that their sins were forgiven IF they were believers through Jesus Christ's life, death and resurrection! The evidence that Cornelius was righteous was already in his life, but the knowledge of how he was made so, he did not enjoy and posses UNTIL Peter came and preach to him. He was MISSING a salvation that Peter had that he did not have and that was a true understanding of Jesus Christ and the forgiveness of sins THROUGH his obedience and righteousness.

Quote from: AngelActs 11:14~"Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved."

Not born again, but saved to an understanding of how their sins were forgiven freely by God...and that is through Jesus Christ's obedience, NOT their! The words save/saved/salvation are used in different senses, and if not rightly divided, then one will be very confused.

Now, concerning Peter commanding them to be baptized, since the Holy Ghost fell on them just as they did on those on Pentecost in Acts two, they too should give the same answer of a good conscience in committing their life to the faith and religion of the Son of God, who loved us and gave himself for us by being baptized into the likeness of his death and raise to a new life of following the teaching and examples of the Son of God. Which btw Cornelius was already doing righteous deeds, but now with an eye MORE on Jesus Christ, than before.

Quote from: RellaGuess what I want to know is if you do not get baptized, by submersion, after accepting what Jesus did for you... does that truly mean that you are not saved.... period? And that you cannot be?

If one is a true believer I would ask~what hinder one from not being baptized? If there is no true hindrance, then I would ask~where is your faith in Christ's life, death, and resurrection?

Quote from: PeterActs 10:47,48~"Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days."

You asked:

Quotedoes that truly mean that you are not saved.... period? And that you cannot be?

Again, you as many do, use saved very limited~I would say this......In heaven there will much more there that have never been baptized, or that have ever heard of the name of Jesus Christ, but any living post-Calvary, and have heard many times over of Jesus Christ, and are able to be baptized and refuses to do so, then I  MUST ask~where is their faith? Baptism saves us in the sense that those who are baptized with understanding and knowing why they are being baptized, will having a fuller knowledge of the truth, which in itself IS A SALVATION that most do not have and enjoy.

Quote from: RellaAnd if you can be saved without getting baptized, by submersion, after accepting what Jesus did for you... is there any true harm if you do not?

My oh my....getting people from stop using the words save/saved/salvation with one swipe of the brush is so hard to do! There will be people who will inherit eternal life post-Calvary, that will never be baptized, without question. One is born again by God alone apart from any action on their part, is the truth of the word of God, yet, man proves not his faith by not following Jesus Christ to the best of his God-given ability, and to do otherwise is not the faith of God's elect.

Quote from: Rella is there any true harm if you do not?

Yes, it is called unbelieving and rebellion. A GOOD conscience would readily submit, and evil one would not.

Quote from: Jaime on Thu Oct 19, 2017 - 19:47:32
Norton, baptism is as Peter said in 1Peter 3:21, it is a calling upon the Lord for a clean conscience. THAT is what saves us.

A clean conscience?

So, does that mean that after the baptism, when mortal man sins... as we all know he will and we all do... throughout life, that we can still have a clean conscience?

If not, then what do we do and what recourse would we have because it is said.... in multiple readings, that a baptism into Christ is not like
the Tevilah , it is not repeatable.

Quote from: yogi bear on Thu Oct 19, 2017 - 21:37:06
Rella, You have posted a lot to deal with and in such it appears you are trying to say that this day one needs not to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

If that is the intent of the long post then would you please answer me this.

Just how do you read Acts 2:38 and is it no longer in play or how do you read it to say baptism in Christ name is not needed? How does it become a work of man and if it is not meant to mean what it does the way it is written then how is it to be read?

I know this is not a one verse tells all but it is defiantly the starter.

Not ignoring you. I will answer to the best of what I read and understand but time , at the moment, is insane.

I may not be able to reply until tomorrow, or Sunday.

Stay tuned... I will reply.

Quote from: yogi bear on Thu Oct 19, 2017 - 20:53:08
Norton, your problem is you do not understand what works is meant when Paul talks about works. The Ephesians passage is talking about works of the law of Moses just as he addressed in Galatians.You take it out of context and try to apply it in a manner not addressed in such passages. Many a scripture talks of our need to obey the gospel. Jesus said plainly that if we love him we will keep his word.

Baptism is not a work no more than believing is and we are commanded to believe but you have no problem with that we are commanded to repent and you have no problem with that not being a work but you can not see that it is God doing the transforming work in baptism not man.

Anyway long story short until we can get to the truth of what Paul means by works we will never get to the truth of Ephesians 2:8  To many of us do not understand the works issue because of the false teaching on it. Salvation is conditional or all would be saved because it is Gods desire that all come to salvation. We all know this so we must get real and get down to what is really being said.

Yogi
What is the point you are making? You seem to be suggesting that works, in the ordinary sense, really do save, and that baptism is not a work. Where do you plan to go with that?