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Quote from: Kenneth Sublett on Sun Oct 22, 2017 - 18:34:25RB I am afraid that you are confusing Justification/righteousness and Salvation/Remission of sins. 

Being confused is a real possibility for any man in the flesh, even though he may be born again~ I fully understand that to be true. But, Sir, I'm convinced that I can defend what I see from the word of God, and I'm just as convinced that men like you cannot. Ken you of all men here are all over the place and I truly never know what you may say from one post to the next.

I will tell you what I will do, let me read your post carefully and I will only this once refute your post with the word of God, and then I'm truly finished with you, the reason being, is that you have no defense but say the same thing over and over again with only a little different beat to your drums! I'm sure you do not like me mentioning "music" to your preaching, but it is what it is. Later sir. RB

Quote from: Kenneth Sublett on Sun Oct 22, 2017 - 18:34:25Before, during and after the LAW people were righteous and in relationship with God.

Ken you said many things, so let me see how I can overall answer you without making many posts in order to do so.

I agree that men were righteous before the law was given proven by Hebrews eleven and many other scriptures. They were made righteous in the same manner as NT saints, which is by grace alone through Jesus' righteousness and seen to be righteous by the same evidence which is "faith"~Abraham being the prime example of ALL BELIEVERS and the reason why he is called the the father of many nations, Jews, and Gentiles.

Quote from: Kenneth SublettThe Law of Moses was added BECAUSE OF TRANSGRESSION to the Israelites only

Well you are partially correct, which means that you are just as much in error if you never said what you did say.

Quote from: PaulGalatians 3:19~"Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator."

God added the law for Jews AND Gentiles till the seed should come, which as we know is Jesus Christ. The law serves as a schoolmaster for both Jews and Gentiles believers to teach us one important message and that is this: By the law shall NO FLESH BE JUSTIFIED~the only means that God can be just and the justifier of them which believeth in Jesus is by the FAITH and obedience and righteousness (all one and the same) of Jesus Christ! Once a person learns this truth they cease to be under the schoolmaster. Until one learns this truth they MUST remain under it as a schoolmaster for as of yet they have not learned it, they must be held back until they learn it. It is true, some are NOT capable of learning this for whatever the reason may be, it could be that they are NOT born of God, or maybe they are a slow learner.

Quote from: Kenneth SublettThe Law was CARNAL

The law as summed up in ten commandments is NOT carnal but spiritual! There were indeed many carnal ordinances under the Jewish economy, but the law itself as we understand God's commandments summed up in the ten given to Moses is very much spiritual, good and holy. Romans 7:12,14

Quote from: Kenneth SublettIT could not give one A holy spirit

Ken, sir, you are confused, really confused. A holy spirit you refer to a good conscience~yet it is the INDWELLING of God's Spirit that makes our conscience GOOD! This good conscience is what we use to give to God as an answer concerning his Son as it relates to the testimony of the scriptures of him in submitting to water baptism. But, we MUST FIRST have the Spirit of God IN us, before we are capable of giving to him our answer that we DO INDEED believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the record that God gave of him, we embrace and believe it to be so with all of our hearts. JUST AS the eunuch did to Philip, no different dear sir.

Quote from: Kenneth SublettIn the story of Cornelius we grasp that neither man nor swine are UNCLEAN but are purified by THE FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST.

Ken, that statement is very biblical, it's too bad that you do not truly believe it~because you quickly said this:

Quote from: Kenneth SublettCornelius was a righteous person because he was NOT WICKED and was a Godfearer.  However, he needed to be told WHAT TO DO to save as asking permission to enter The Church, Ekklesia, Synagogue which is a SCHOOL OF CHRIST AND HIS WORD.

Corenulis was INDEED righteous before Peter ever arrived! Yet he needed to be saved in a practical sense just as YOU need to be so! His lack of knowledge of the truth of the gospel is the ONLY reason why Peter was needed, and for NO OTHER reason. God alone regenerates, men like Peter, duty is to feed God's sheep with true knowledge and understanding of the TRUTH, so that they can be grounded in the truth of Jesus Christ.  I'm fighting the same battles that Paul did with the legalist of his day that believed yet wanted to add their works along with Christ in order TO BE ACCEPTED by God!

Quote from: LukeActs 15:1,2~"And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question."

As I said, I'm fighting the same battle as Paul and others before us had to fight! Almost indentical, only with you it's baptism, with them it was with circumsion.

Quote from: Kenneth SublettAs long as you are tip-toeing through the TULIPS I don't believe that you can grasp the differernce between being Righteous-VERSUS-Wicked and Salvation which involves YOU obeying the direct commands.  If you insist that a person is like a wet noodle and incapable then you disparage God Who created mankind who was NOT CRIPPLED by the LAW of Moses.

I need to come back and start here, so this post would not be so long....later.

Quote from: Kenneth Sublett As long as you are tip-toeing through the TULIPS I don't believe that you can grasp the differernce between being Righteous-VERSUS-Wicked and Salvation which involves YOU obeying the direct commands.  If you insist that a person is like a wet noodle and incapable then you disparage God Who created mankind who was NOT CRIPPLED by the LAW of Moses.

You call it tip-toeing through the TULIPS, I call this understanding what constitutes believing and understanding the true gospel that Paul preached and left us the written revelation of it, preserved for us in the word of God.

Quote from: Kenneth Sublett he difference between being Righteous-VERSUS-Wicked and Salvation which involves YOU obeying the direct commands.

Here lies your great departure from the truth.

The gospel preached by Paul declares in no uncertain declaration that salvation from sin and condemnation is through Jesus' obedience, not ours~one that does God's commandments is a clear evidence that they have been born of God and given freely a new nature on Jesus' behalf, SO THAT they can do righteousness, but NOT in order to be righteous! This is John's teaching all through his gospel and his epistles.

Quote from: Kenneth SublettIf you insist that a person is like a wet noodle and incapable then you disparage God Who created mankind who was NOT CRIPPLED by the LAW of Moses.

Sir, it is NOT what I insist on that matters, but what does God's testimony on this subject declare in no uncertain language. Man, by nature, is at enmity against God~this was NOT the manner in which God created man, but what state man was left in AFTER his fall into sin. A man by nature is not just an enemy, but much worse~he's at enmity in his mind by wicked thoughts and deeds against his Creator.

Quote from: PaulRomans 8:7,8~"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."

Ken you believe that man only stumped his toes in the Garden of Eden, but, it was so much more than that, so much more. God's image was stolen from man by the Devil!  He lost his gift of wisdom, knowledge, and understanding as far as spiritually knowing TRUTH and how to please God! You are still showing clear evidence of that being so!

Quote from: Kenneth SublettFaith comes by HEARING the Word

That's correct.

Quote from: Kenneth SublettFaith comes by HEARING the Word and FAITH is not a GIFT:

It is BOTH. The power to believe is a gift given, and the RESULTS of the new birth. FROM THAT POINT FORWARD, our faith is increased through the scriptures by hearing~BUT, only one who has been born of God has this power through the new man that God created within that person by his power through His grace given to that person on Jesus' behalf. It is NOT that difficult to see and understand if one has been born of God. If one believes, then THAT PERSON has been born of God to do so!

Quote from: John1st John 5:1~:Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

So clear to him, that has an understanding of what John is saying to us.

Quote from: Kenneth Sublett Rom. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ:
           for IT is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom. 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall LIVE by faith.
Rom. 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven
         against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom. 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto RIGHTEOUSNESS;
and with the mouth confession is made unto SALVATION

I'm coming back to see how well you really understand these scriptures~I'm convinced that you will be found wanting knowledge.

You have said a lot in the last couple of posts that I believe to be just plain wrong.  I would like to start with one, since it seems to be a major premise to your position in much of this.  You said,

Quote from: RB on Mon Oct 23, 2017 - 06:44:36God's image was stolen from man by the Devil!

What Scripture do you point to to support your thesis?

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Oct 23, 2017 - 07:20:56You have said a lot in the last couple of posts that I believe to be just plain wrong.  I would like to start with one, since it seems to be a major premise to your position in much of this.  You said,What Scripture do you point to to support your thesis?

There are hundred's of them when one considers the natural man void of spiritual wisdom, understanding, and true knowledge. Beside that truth, when God regenerates a sinner, he recreates within him an new man, which after God is created BACK where Adam was created, but even with more glory than the first Adam, he is created after the image of the second Adam, Jesus Christ. How else can these scriptures possibly be explained?

Quote from: PaulEphesians 4:22-24~That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Again, Paul said:

Quote from: PaulColossians 3:8-10~"But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:"

I'm saying no more, and no less than what Paul taught those first century believers, but what is sad, is that these truths you consider....

Quote from: 4WDI believe to be just plain wrong.

This truly should trouble your spirit, since your consider Paul's doctrine to be just plain wrong, mainly because it goes against what you have built your whole system around~that is, that man can do spiritual acts without the power of God changing his heart for him in order for him to do such acts.

No, there are not hundreds of them.  In fact there is a single one that says that the spirit was stolen. And you can't renew something that was stolen from you.  You can only replace it.  So while I do believe that some corruption occurs in our spirit when we sinned, it wasn't stolen.  Being born again does not produce a new spirit. It is the same spirit given by God initially and corrupted by sin [of the man, not Adam] which is renewed, regenerated.

Quote from:  Kenneth Sublett"Rom. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for IT is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom. 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall LIVE by faith. Rom. 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Rom. 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto RIGHTEOUSNESS; and with the mouth confession is made unto SALVATION "

Ken, these verses you quoted and then added your comments, and said:

Quote from: Kenneth SublettThe TULIP heresy is DERIVED by isolated proof texts INTENDED to support the warped mind of men who claim that the HIV VIRUS of sin is passed on to a child if the mother had sex NOT INTENDING to "generate."

KEN, If I live a thousand years more, I would have no clue what you are trying to convey in saying what you said....and neither do you.

Nevertheless, allow me to ask you this question~Do you believe you understand Romans 1:16-17? Sir, I know you do not and neither do any that believe that the gospel is the means of regenerating sinners who are dead in sins and trespasses. Impossible for them to come unto the knowledge of these two wonderful scriptures Allow me please to prove it to you.

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. "Before I start, this scripture should be considered in the light of 1st Corinthians 1:18-31...with special attention to verses 24! To be very short, all Paul is saying is this: The gospel is the power of God to only one group of people living in this world and that would be to those whom God has called out of darkness into his marvelous light. In other words, the gospel is the power of God unto everyone that believeth, and to the rest it is foolishness! The next verse will add light on Romans 1:16 which reads:

" For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."The reason WHY the gospel is the power of God to believers is this:

Quote from: Paul the ApostleFor therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith

God's righteousness that he has provided for his people is revealed THROUGH/BY the GOSPEL of JESUS CHRIST. But notice carefully...it is revealed from faith to faith, or, in other words, from a person who has faith, to a person who HAS FAITH! I cannot reveal gospel truths to dead sinners who do not have faith~ God FIRST must give them faith so they can hear the truth from a man OF FAITH!

Sir, you quote scriptures with no understanding of what they are saying to you. But, you are not alone Ken, far from it.

Quote from: Kenneth SublettJesus said that those who BELIEVE (comply) and ARE BAPTIZED Shall BE SAVED.

Ken, I fully understand Mark 16:16 and rejoice concerning the truth that Jesus spoke when he uttered those words. Test me and see.

Quote from: Kenneth SublettJesus and others WENT TO THE WATER to be baptized: please don't call Jesus a LIAR.  God did not name Him a SON until  He obeyed the Isaiah 1 prophecy and WENT OUT to BE baptized.  Active Verbs are not ANTI CHRISTIAN.

Sir, our obedience PROVES our Sonship, it does not make us a son of God, that comes by the Spirit's regenerating power apart from my co-operation.  Jesus did not make himself a Son of God, the POWER OF THE HIGHEST DID!   

John Calvin was often a good if confusing scholar because you have to labor to separate the ME from the THEM.  When he TRIPPED THROUGH THE TULIPS he warned others NOT TO GO THERE other than for thinking he yanked isolated texts screaming out by their roots.  I have tried to emphasize the ACTIVE VERBS for the entire paragraph.  Always follow the whole procedure when you mix chemicals. 

QuoteEphesians 4:22-24~That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Only by REQUEST by obedience at the time and place of baptism does God give the OBEDIENT  A holy spirit or A good cconscience, consciousness or the ability to READ BLACK text on BROWN paper.  So, I will Quote the paragraph to honor God's Spirit which did not reveal in proof texts.  Your quote blows the TULIP out of the Ground.

Eph. 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord,
        that YE henceforth WALK not as other Gentiles walk,
        ln the vanity of their mind,

Scripture is like a string of DNA which is God's way of converting the DUST or Aborigines into A LIVING SPIRIT.  The only operative words for the manly is SPEAK or READ that which is WRITTEN for our learning.

WALK is an active verb: Paul warns BELIEVERS that they not ACTIVELY VERB in the vanity of THEIR MIND.  That sounds like FREE WILL whereas Calvinists claim that they are wet noodles which must be DRAGGED and never PUSHED.

Eph. 4:18 Having the understanding DARKENED, being ALIENATED from the life of God
        through the IGNORANCE that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Eph. 4:19 Who being past feeling have GIVEN THEMSELVES OVER unto lasciviousness,
         to WORK all uncleanness with greediness.
Eph. 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
Eph. 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
Eph. 4:22 That YE PUT OFF concerning the former conversation the old man,
            which is corrupt according to the DECEITFUL LUSTS;

Calvinists deny that a person is tempted by God but they are FORCED to do evil

    James 1:13 Let no man SAY when he is tempted,
            I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
    James 1:14 But EVERY MAN IS tempted, when he is DRAWN AWAY of his own lust, and enticed.
    James 1:15 Then when LUST hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin:
            and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Eph. 4:23 And be RENEWED in the spirit of your mind;

Psa. 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a RIGHT spirit within me.

Spirit has several meanings including the MENTAL DISPOSITION of YOUR MIND.  Paul had a Mind but his nature was conflicted.  Being IN Christ he had a Helper not available to the UNBELIEVER which means UNBAPTIIZED because obedience is a vital act of worship.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,
      and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. [UNholy spirit becomes A holy spirit]

Eph. 4:24 And that YE PUT ON the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

    2Cor. 5:17 Therefore if any man be IN CHRIST, he is a NEW creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    Eph. 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of COMMANDMENTS contained in ordinances;
            for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

    g2537.  kainos, kahee-nos´; of uncertain affinity; new (especially in freshness; while 3501 is properly so with respect to age: — new.

NOW, as Paul had to struggle with his HUMAN URGES, He and others had the POWER to put on a NEW man, inner man, holy spirit, mindl.

Eph. 4:25 Wherefore PUTTING AWAY lying,
        SPEAK every man truth [LOGOS] with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
Eph. 4:26 BE ye angry, and SIN not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
Eph. 4:27 Neither GIVE PLACE to the devil.
Eph. 4:28 Let him that STOLE steal no more: but rather let him LABOR,
        WORKING with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to GIVE to him that needeth.
Eph. 4:29 LET no corrupt communication PROCEED out of your mouth,
       but that which is good to the use of edifying [EDUCATING], that it may MINISTER GRACE unto the hearers.
Eph. 4:30 And GRIEVE NOT the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Eph. 4:31 LET all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil SPEAKING, be PUT AWAY from you, with all malice:
Eph. 4:32 And BE ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another,
        even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

The WORD, LOGOS or God's Regulative or Governing Principle is NOT SUBJECT TO JUDGMENT, Private interpretation or FURTHER EXPOUNDING or SALE.  Anything beyond LETTING Jesus be the only MASTER TEACHER is called dogma and refuses to grasp the great distance between in infinite God and a bucket of bones and flesh with a SMALL calculating power.

QuoteSir, our obedience PROVES our Sonship, it does not make us a son of God, that comes by the Spirit's regenerating power apart from my co-operation.  Jesus did not make himself a Son of God, the POWER OF THE HIGHEST DID! 

Jesus doesn't confess us to the Father until we confess that "He is the Christ the Son of the living God."  Jesus MADE TO BE the MAN Jesus of Nazareth both LORD AND CHRIST AND the new Comforter Holy Spirit:

1John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, THAT ye sin not.
        And if any man sin, we have an advocate [PARACLETE COMFORTER] with the Father,
        Jesus Christ the righteous: [Jesus was baptized to fulfill righteous because He was the SEED of Davidd]
1John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins:
        and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.

Jesus OBEYED the Prophetic Command in Isaiah 1 which is fulfilled in Mark 16.

Rev. 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful WITNESS,
         and the FIRST BEGOTTEN FROM THE DEAD,
         and the prince of the kings of the earth.
         Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Jesus terminates the Law and saves both Jews and Gentiles by REGENERATING the spirit of both so that they obey without questioning God. Holy Scripture for the Church is the Prophets and other Prophecies concerning Jesus of Nazareth.

Rom. 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
Rom. 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
Rom. 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord,
        which was MADE OF THE SEED  of David according to the FLESH;
Rom. 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power,
          according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
Rom. 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship,
          for OBEDIENCE to THE FAITH among all nations, for his name:

Jesus was neither LORD NOR CHRIST until gave Him the FORMA or IMAGE of God. With ALL authority as the IMAGE of God, He rejected that authority and proved Himself competent by being a SERVANT or SLAVE.

Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him,
           that of the fruit of his loins, ACCORDING TO THE FLESH,
           he would RAISE UP Christ to sit on his throne;
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ,
           that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted,
          and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost,
          HE hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

The glorified Jesus was given the evangelistic role as HOLY SPIRIT

Epagg-elia  2. as law-term, e. (sc. dokimasias) summons to attend a dokimasia tōn rhētorōn (v. "epaggellō" 3), 3. offer, promise, profession, undertaking, epitēdeumatos public exercise of a profession,

Of the promised made by the Spirit to Abraham:

   Galatians 3:[13] Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us. For it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree," [14] that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. [15] Brothers, I speak like men. Though it is only a man's covenant, yet when it has been confirmed, no one makes it void, or adds to it. [16] Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He doesn't say, "To seeds," as of many, but as of one, "To your seed," which is CHRIST.

     Romans 4 [14] For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of no effect. [15] For the law works wrath, for where there is no law, neither is there disobedience. [16] For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace, to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed, not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all. [17] As it is written, "I have made you a father of many nations." This is in the presence of him whom he believed: God, who gives life to the dead, and calls the things that are not, as though they were

Hebrews 9:[11] But Christ having come as a high priest of the coming good things, through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation, [12] nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the Holy Place, having obtained eternal redemption. [13] For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify to the cleanness of the flesh: [14] how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

1Pet. 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pet. 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
1Pet. 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities

Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Acts 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,
          that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Jesus of Nazareth was the seed of Abraham and David: He was neither Lord, nor Christ nor Holy Spirit until after He was baptized and OBEYED His Father in all things. A priest could not enter into a holy place until he accepted the sacrifice and was immersed in the DEEP Laver.  This CARNAL type was fulfilled by Jesus of Nazareth.

Matt. 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

h1343. dikaiosune, dik-ah-yos-oo´-nay; from 1342; equity (of character or act); specially (Christian) justification: — righteousness.
justĭtĭum , ii, n. 2. jus-sisto, I.a cessation from business in the courts of justice, a legal vacation,

Rom 9:31] but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, didn't arrive at the law of righteousness.

Matt. 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Matt. 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Jesus died, was buried, was ENSPIRITED and was resurrected.  This is a form type or TUPOS a pattern INTENDED TO BE IMITATED.  In Romans 6 Paul said that when we OBEY THAT PATTERN we are FREE FROM SIN and only then able to serve God.  We are REGENERATED or CONVERTED which means that we RETURN TO OUR INFANT STATE WHICH IS PURE.

You know that you are more than just the SEED OF DAVID ACCORDING TO THE FLESH but that your old Dust spirit is CLEANSED or PURIFIED so that we are a NEW PERSON.  After baptism our spirits are TRANSLATED INTO THE HEAVENLY KINGDOM.

Honest questions: Was the thief on the cross along side Jesus saved? If he was saved, he was saved without baptism?


Sorry to have interjected with what may be irrelevant.

Quote from: Cyrillus on Tue Oct 24, 2017 - 00:49:08
Honest questions: Was the thief on the cross along side Jesus saved? If he was saved, he was saved without baptism?


Sorry to have interjected with what may be irrelevant.

Generally even people who believe baptism is necessary consider that he was saved.  They usually hold that baptism is necessary *when it is possible*, but that God can sovereignly relax that rule when it is not possible.

Quote from: Kenneth Sublett on Mon Oct 23, 2017 - 11:29:31
Jesus doesn't confess us to the Father until we confess that "He is the Christ the Son of the living God."  Jesus MADE TO BE the MAN Jesus of Nazareth both LORD AND CHRIST AND the new Comforter Holy Spirit:

How was this post  Edit: Yesterday at 12:50:15 by Wycliffes_Shillelagh and not Kenneth Sublett and why?

This post and the one above it that Kenneth posted is nothing more than a man rambling without very much purpose and certainly without much edification for anyone!

Quote from: RB on Mon Oct 23, 2017 - 09:55:32
Nevertheless, allow me to ask you this question~Do you believe you understand Romans 1:16-17? Sir, I know you do not and neither do any that believe that the gospel is the means of regenerating sinners who are dead in sins and trespasses. Impossible for them to come unto the knowledge of these two wonderful scriptures Allow me please to prove it to you.

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. "Before I start, this scripture should be considered in the light of 1st Corinthians 1:18-31...with special attention to verses 24! To be very short, all Paul is saying is this: The gospel is the power of God to only one group of people living in this world and that would be to those whom God has called out of darkness into his marvelous light. In other words, the gospel is the power of God unto everyone that believeth, and to the rest it is foolishness!

You are right.  The gospel is the power of God to only one group of people living in this world and that would be to every one that believes.  It matters not how they come to believe, It matters only if they believe.  But Paul makes it clear later on in Romans 10 how one comes to believe.  It is by hearing the word about Christ [God] (Rom 10:17).  It really is no more complicated than than.  One doesn't need the false teaching of TULIP to explain it.  It is all quite simple.  The power is in the gospel.  There is no requirement to be "regenerated" in order to believe. In fact just the opposite. The power is in the good news about Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God.  And those who hear, believe and are baptized are regenerated, i.e., saved.  Paul spells that out in Romans 6:1-16 and elsewhere.  Clearly there and elsewhere being made a new creature, i.e., regeneration, results from believing.

Quote from: Cyrillus on Tue Oct 24, 2017 - 00:49:08Honest questions: Was the thief on the cross along side Jesus saved? If he was saved, he was saved without baptism?

Sorry to have interjected with what may be irrelevant.

There was an entire remnant of Israel under the Old Covenant that were saved. Baptism had no part in it.  The thief on the cross was, at best, a Jew under the Old Covenant.  The New Covenant had not yet been instituted.

Quote from: 4WD on Tue Oct 24, 2017 - 06:33:59
There was an entire remnant of Israel under the Old Covenant that were saved. Baptism had no part in it.  The thief on the cross was, at best, a Jew under the Old Covenant.  The New Covenant had not yet been instituted.

Another question.

On Grace centered we have members that are Jewish that converted to Christianity and/or Messianic Jews. (I realize the difference).

I would be curious to ask each of them, when they came to belief in Jesus as their savior.... did they also get baptized, as things now are under the new covenant?

I know some Messianic Jews that were baptized when they came to Christ. Their church has a baptistry. We visited their church once, mostly out of curiosity. These worship on saturday.  The sermon we heard from their preacher could have been heard in any Christian church. I don't know about all Messianics and their views on baptism.

Here is a Messianic website talking about it. Maybe one our Messianic brethren here could help us in this.

http://www.shema.com/baptism-1908/

Matt. 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Matt. 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Matt. 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Matt. 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Matt. 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
Matt. 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Matt. 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
Matt. 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
Matt. 10:40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Jesus of Nazareth came as the Seed of David after the flesh.  However, He had unlimited power as the FORMA or IMAGE of God.  To represent God Who gave the Sabbath or REST, Jesus came to serve His disciples and be despised, rejected and murdered by the Jews.

Phil. 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Phil. 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Phil. 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Quote from: 4WD on Tue Oct 24, 2017 - 06:24:25You are right.  The gospel is the power of God to only one group of people living in this world and that would be to every one that believes.

You confessing at least that much is an absolute must, or you would be found a liar. But you from that point forward quickly begin to corrupt scriptures and just very crafty refused to address Romans 1:16 in its context with verse seventeen and with other pertinent scriptures that adds, even more, light on what Paul is clearly teaching. 

I must attend a meeting very shortly, so I will go as far as I can now and finish later.

Quote from: 4WD It matters not how they come to believe, It matters only if they believe.

Well now, Paul also tells us how wicked sinners come to believe, for they surely were not born with a heart that can easily come to the faith in Jesus Christ, since by nature they all were children of disobedience even those whom God had purposed to show grace to through Jesus Christ. I could heap scriptures upon you, but the truth is not something easily believe and accepted UNLESS God opens one's heart.

Quote from: Paul a defender of the true gospelEphesians 1:17-20~"That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

The elect believe according to God's mighty power, the very same power used to resurrect Jesus Christ from the dead was used to resurrect the elect spiritually from being dead in sins and trespasses!

So, it does matter how we "think" one comes to faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ~you say one comes by his own efforts and the efforts of others, or it really does not matter~but Paul clearly preached that we believe according to God's mighty power in quickening us from being dead in sins to life in Jesus Christ.

Quote It is by hearing the word about Christ [God] (Rom 10:17).  It really is no more complicated than than.

That is indeed how we get faith and how our faith is increased, YET, one FIRST must be quickened to life and given a new nature after the image of Jesus Christ, and FROM THAT POINT FORWARD, it can be said that we believe ACCORDING TO God's mighty power~and the means that God uses to cause us to believe IS the word of the gospel! As you said:

Quote from: 4WDIt really is no more complicated than that.

You also said:

Quote from: 4WDOne doesn't need the false teaching of TULIP to explain it.

True and as I have said many times over, I'm NOT a Calvinist, for I disagree with the "I" and the "P" in the word TULIP. Even though I have many friends whom I highly respect that were and are Calvinist.

Quote from: 4WDOne doesn't need the false teaching of TULIP to explain it.

Correct, we should follow Paul's teaching and he is much clearer than any Calvinist and certainly than any Armenian if names need to be used. 

Quote from: 4WDThe power is in the gospel.  There is no requirement to be "regenerated" in order to believe. In fact just the opposite. The power is in the good news about Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God.  And those who hear, believe and are baptized are regenerated, i.e., saved.  Paul spells that out in Romans 6:1-16 and elsewhere.  Clearly there and elsewhere being made a new creature, i.e., regeneration, results from believing.

I'm being called...later.

Messianic Jews are Jews and follow the Babylonian Talmud or the tradition of the elders or as Paul said, Jewish Fables.

What Baptism Does Not do

Baptism does not save you (1 Peter 3:21). It is not the washing of water from the body that saves you, it is the appeal to God for a good conscience. Messiah Yeshua saved you already. This is a picture of what He has already done for you, and a prayer for Him to continue to save you.

This is what MESSIANICS like Joseph Shulam learned from Lipscomb University and the creed of the PROGRESSIVE CHURCH OF CHRIST.

Peter didn't say that it was a PICTURE of being saved before repentance, confession or baptism.  Jesus' work was a TUPOS or a PATTERN INTENDED TO BE OBEYED.  Obeying that FORM  OF DOCTRINE is Anti-Tupos were ANTI means instead of.  We are baptized as Pure Grace to ASK for spiritual and physical resurrection by imitating the PATTERN of Jesus.  Unless you can RESURRECT your own body and receive A holy spirit or A good conscience which without which you cannot READ or HEAR the word, Baptism is 110% PURE GRACE.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mark 16:16 He that believeth [Pistis complies]  and is baptized shall be saved;
           but he that believeth [Apistos does not comply] not shall be damned.

Messianic Jews defend the WASHINGS which could NOT give A holy spirit or A Good conscience. Peter makes a complete sentence.

1Pet. 3:20 Which sometime were DISOBEDIENT, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Of course God saved them but for the obedient water was the instrumental means God used to drown the 'old man' and keep the remnant safe.  The word for Ark does not speak of a ship but a coffin.  It is covered with blood-red bitumen inside and outside so that figurative blood stood between those who were saved and the disobedient were drowned.

To say that Baptism does not save is to call the Spirit OF Christ in Isaiah a liar.  Jesus who FULFILLED these prophecies mad baptism a condition of becoming a disciple and being added to His Spiritual Kingdom.  Messianic Jews and the New Covenant is for the JEWS so that Gentile dogs can still join up.

Reading 101:

Peter says that obeying the figure or ANTITUPON ofthe TUPOS or which is "A pattern intended to be imitated" SAVES.
Messianic Jews deny.
Peter said that BAPTISM DOES NOT SAVE according to the ceremonial washings
Peter says that BAPTISM SAVES because it is a ASKING or REQUESTING of A holy spirit or A Good conscience based on Jesus Christ who was murdered, inspirited, and resurrected to a new life.

Heb. 9:9 Which was a figure [Parable] for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices,
         that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

Peter said that baptism in the NAME is a request for A holy spirit (Acts 2:38) or A good conscience.  Baptism SAVES says Peter because it is the REALITY of the Jewish superstitions and SAVES Because Isaiah and Jesus and Peter says so.

A Good Conscience is:
g4893.  suneidesis, soon-i´-day-sis; from a prolonged form of 4894; co-perception, i.e. moral consciousness: — conscience

g4894. suneido, soon-i´-do; from 4862 and 1492; to see completely; used (like its primary) only in two past tenses, respectively meaning to understand or become aware, and to be conscious or (clandestinely) informed of: — consider, know, be privy, be ware of.

In 2 Corinthians 3 Paul said that the Jews could not READ BLACK text on BROWN paper (my trransation) until the Turned meaning being CONVERTED which has the same meaning as Acts 2:38

Matt. 13:15 For this people's heart is
      WAXED gross,
      and their ears are dull of hearing,
      and their EYES THEY HAVE CLOSED lest at any time they   
      should see with their eyes,
      and hear with their ears,
      and should understand with their heart,
      and should be converted,
      and I should heal them.

This is a version of the STEPS making conversion at baptism the only way to be HEALED by having their sins WASHED AWAY so that they COULD see and hear when the Word was PREACHED by being READ in the synagogue each REST day (2 cor. 3]

Peter said the same thing

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,
        that God hath made that same Jesus,
        whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this,
       they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles,
       Men and brethren, what shall we do? Imperative 
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them,
       Repent, and be baptized every one of you
       in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the remission of sins,
       and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children,
        and to all that are afar off,
       even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort,
       saying, Save yourselves from this TOWARD generation.

Messianic Jews are Jews who believe that Jesus was THEIR MESSIAH and the New Covenant is the Old Covenant written on the heard for JEWS.  Modern Religious Jews are not of the house or LAOS left in Canaan when Jews were dispersed with the promise that their SEED would not drop from God Sieve.  They are not any more Semite that the still cursed Gentiles.  Abraham was a GENTILE.

CROOKED g4646.  skolios, skol-ee-os´; from the base of 4628; warped, i.e. winding; figuratively, perverse: — crooked, froward, untoward.

Jesus and John called the Jews left after the godly Israelites had fled Jerusalem

Matt. 3:7  But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Matt. 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

SO PETER REJECTS THE JEWISH BAPTISMS WHICH NEVER CHANGED THEIR CONSCIENCE AND AFFIRMS THE BAPTISM AS A REQUEST FROM JESUS FOR THE GOOD CONSCIENCE WITHOUT WHICH YOU CANNOT, AS JESUS CLAIMED, UNDERSTAND THE WORD.

1Pet. 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

In fact, Baptism saves us FROM the CARNAL OBSERVATIONS so that we can worship IN THE SPIRIT as a place.



I WILL POST A STUDY OF THE MEANING OF "A GOOD CONSCIENCE, CONSCIOUSNESS MEANING A CO-PERCEPTION OF THE WORD AND TO BE SECRETLY INFORMED. JESUS SAID THAT PARABLES WERE TO HIDE TRUTH FROM THE JEWS DESTINED TO BE BURNED BECAUSE THE GODLY ISRAELITES HAD FLED TO ESCAPE YOUNG BOYS BEING "USED" IN THE TEMPLE.

Rom. 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom. 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom. 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom. 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
Rom. 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Rom. 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
Rom. 2:18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
Rom. 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
Rom. 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
Rom. 2:21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?

Ken
You continue to interpret Romans 6 bassackwards as you have for the last ten years. The obedience Paul writes about in that chapter follows being freed from sin when they were baptized. They did not become servants of righteousness, obey, and then be freed from sin in baptism. They were freed from sin in baptism, and then became obedient servants of righteousness.

Norton:

QuoteYou continue to interpret Romans 6 bassackwards as you have for the last ten years. The obedience Paul writes about in that chapter follows being freed from sin when they were baptized. They did not become servants of righteousness, obey, and then be freed from sin in baptism. They were freed from sin in baptism, and then became obedient servants of righteousness.

Not what I said:  Those who were baptized obeyed a form of teaching.  The teaching of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus was a type or TUPOS "a pattern intended to be imitated."

They obeyed a FORM of that being ANTI-TUPOS.  Baptism is INSTEAD of being crucified for our own sins with no effect.  If I quote the later part of Romans 6 it is clear that Paul is showing the RESULTS of being baptized.

Rom. 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom. 6:3 Know ye not,
       that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ
       were baptized into his death?
Rom. 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:
        that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father,
        even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom. 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death,
       we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom. 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him,
        THAT the body of sin might be destroyed,
        that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom. 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

I HAVE NEVER SAID ANYTHING DIFFERENT.

Further down, Paul defines the RESULTS of the same BAPTISM.

Rom. 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom
         ye yield yourselves servants to OBEY,
         his servants ye are to whom ye OBEY;
         whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom. 6:17 But God be thanked,
       that ye were the servants of sin,
       but ye have OBEYED from the heart
       that FORM of doctrine [baptism] which was delivered you.
Rom. 6:18 Being THEN made free from sin,
       ye BECAME the servants of righteousness.

Form is TUPOS or a PATTERN intended to be imitated.

I have never said anything different.

People insist that we are BAPTIZED because we have been saved. Paul said THEN made free of Sin.

Acts 3:28 FOR (eis) REMISSION of Sins never BECAUSE OF.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted,
       THAT your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Why do  so many  people  believe they  need to be baptized ?

When  the  bible tells us .....

                      Eph. 2:

   

8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9
Not of works, lest any man should boast
            

Disciples INSIST on being Baptized because those who believeth nots or APISTOS who refuse to COMPLY will be DAMNED.

BAPTIZED BELIEVERS are KEPT SAFE by GRACE which TEACHES and FAITHFULNESS means OBEY.

NOW, Grams, we DISCIPLES want you to tell us FROM WHAT those who were baptized believer are they KEPT SAFE.

Jesus and Paul said SAVE YOURSELVES from that RACE OF VIPERS.

Most people are not able to be baptized because they are OF the Earth, Dust people, ABORIGINES who cannot have the Breath of Life breathed into them.

Quote from: grams on Tue Oct 24, 2017 - 13:58:16Why do  so many  people  believe they  need to be baptized ?

grams~you disrupt threads instead of adding valid points in a constructed manner. Quoting Ephesians 2:8,9 everytime proves a lack of knowledge in the scriptures instead of having a sound defense using God's testimony to prove or disprove arguments. The good thing is that you believe, the bad thing is that you do not know what you believe and how to defend your beliefs. Maybe you need to listen and learn and thank God that you do believe in Jesus Christ as your Saviour.

Maybe by rejecting Baptism you don't have A holy spirit or A good conscience so you can read BLACK text on BROWN Paper. You have to Turn, Be Converted or be baptized before you can READ the text or HERE it when in the rare church the WORD is PREACHED by being READ once each week free of charge.

Quote from: Kenneth Sublett on Tue Oct 24, 2017 - 14:14:41NOW, Grams, we DISCIPLES want you to tell us FROM WHAT those who were baptized believer are they KEPT SAFE.

Kenneth, you are not much better than grams~most of your post makes so little sense, and generally, has no spiritual food of any substance that a child of God could use for his spiritual growth. You basically say the same things over and over again, with no light coming forth from your post and one reading them must very work hard just to try to understand what in the world you are trying to say as you babble (incomprehensible way) on.

Quote from: Kenneth Sublett on Tue Oct 24, 2017 - 14:24:07Ehpesians 2:5,6~Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

You quoted (or pasted) these scriptures, now I love to see you give an exegesis, not an eisegesis of these wonderful scriptures.

Exegesis is MAGICA or private interpretation.  Why not see whether you can read the parallel statements quoted by Paul in all of his letters.

You can do nothing but READ or you pass judgment on the Spirit OF God.

Quote from: RB on Tue Oct 24, 2017 - 10:10:32So, it does matter how we "think" one comes to faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ~you say one comes by his own efforts and the efforts of others, or it really does not matter~but Paul clearly preached that we believe according to God's mighty power in quickening us from being dead in sins to life in Jesus Christ. That is indeed how we get faith and how our faith is increased, YET, one FIRST must be quickened to life and given a new nature after the image of Jesus Christ, and FROM THAT POINT FORWARD, it can be said that we believe ACCORDING TO God's mighty power~and the means that God uses to cause us to believe IS the word of the gospel!

It really is a sad thing that you do not know and understand what the quickening, or regeneration, is that you speak so much about.  First faith, then comes the quickening, i.e., regeneration.  We are saved by Grace through Faith.  To be saved is to be regenerated.  It is in being saved that the old man is made new.  It is in being saved that the new creature is made from the old creature.  It is in being saved that one becomes clothed with Christ.  It is in being saved that one is raised to walk in the newness of life.  That is regeneration.  It is produced by Grace through Faith. I could give you all the Scripture references to support that, but you already know what those are; you just reject what they all really say.  You reject the true meaning because they do not agree with your false doctrine of Total Depravity.

By the way you say you don't agree with Calvinism's I and P.  But even most Reformed Theologians will agree that if any one of the TULIPs fail, they all fail.  Such is of course true.

Quote from: Kenneth Sublett on Tue Oct 24, 2017 - 14:44:34
Exegesis is MAGICA or private interpretation.  Why not see whether you can read the parallel statements quoted by Paul in all of his letters.

You can do nothing but READ or you pass judgment on the Spirit OF God.

Exegesis is when someone explains what the text means in its original meaning and context.  There's nothing private about it.  Well... there isn't supposed to be, anyway.

Do you perhaps mean eisegesis?

No, exegesis is INTERPRETING Scripture to fit their own view. For instance quoting Ephesians 2:8 out of context intends to DISPUTE Paul who claimed to be informed by Jesus Christ.  The Holy Scriptures needs no exegesis or explanation which is not Word, Logos, Regulative Princiiple ourlawing rhetoric, personal opinions, personal experiences, singing, poetry, making music or gestures INTENDING to ENHANCE the word of God

exêgêtês , ou, ho, one who leads on, adviser, prêgmatôn agathôn Hdt.5.31 codd.; houtosi de . . hapantôn ên toutôn ho e. D.35.17 .

II. expounder, interpreter, esp. of oracles, dreams, or omens, Hdt.1.78; at Athens, of sacred rites or customs, modes of burial, expiation, etc., spiritual director, Pl.Euthphr.4d,9a, Lg.759c, 759e, 775a, D.47.68, Is.8.39, Thphr.Char.16.6: as an official title, e. Puthochrêstos [of the SERPENT] IG3.241 ; e. ex Eupatridôn ib.267; e. ex Eumolpidôn Lys.6.10 , etc., cf. Suid.s.v.; patrios e., of Apollo, Pl.R.427c.

b. at Rome, of the pontifices, D.H.2.73.

2. guide, cicerone, to temples, etc., Paus.5.15.10, SIG1021.20 (Olympia).

3. commentator, Gal. 15.518, Mich.in EN50.8.

2Pet. 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Private is IDIOS which means that YOU (private) Interpret or FURTHER EXPOUND.  Rhetoric, singing, playing, gestures, drama is OWNED as trying to ENHANCE or private interpret.  "saved by grace through faith" is private interpretation because it INTENDS to omit the meaning.

interprĕtātĭo , ōnis. f. id..
I. [select] An explanation, exposition, interpretation (class.): "juris," Cic. Off. 1, 10: "facilis," Liv. 2, 8: "fulgurum," Plin. 2, 53, 54, § 141: "ostentorum et somniorum," id. 7, 56, 57, § 203; Suet. Caes. 14: exemplo adjuvare interpretationem, Paul. ex Fest. p. 273. —
B. [select] Transf.
1. [select] A translation, version: "rhetoricen in Latinum transferentes oratoriam nominaverunt . . . et haec interpretatio dura est," Quint. 2, 14, 1.—
2. [select] Signification, meaning: "foederis," Cic. Balb. 6, 14: "nominis," Plin. 3, 17, 21, § 124: "in Graecum sermonem per interpretationem proprie transferri," Gai. Inst. 3, 92 fin.—
II. [select] Rhet. t. t., an explanation of one expression by another, Auct. Her. 4, 28, 38; cf. Quint. 9, 3, 98.

epi-lu^sis , eōs, hē,
A. [select] release from, "e. phobōn didou" A.Th.134 (lyr.): abs., exemption from banishment, [Grace excuses]
*2. [select] . solution, "sophismatōn" [rhetoric or music]  S.E.P.2.246; explanation, 2 Ep.Pet.1.20, Vett. Val.172.3 (pl.), Hld.1.18, 4.9, Iamb.Protr.21 (pl.).

I have more information which I can link so that you can find the TEXTS which use the words.  What people do when they go beyond READING or SPEAKING that which is written for our learning that is EIS

And something more.  Paul commanded that we SPEAK Psalms, hymns and spritiual songs.
Exegesis almost universally says ready to confiscate your church that

Paul commanded that we SING psalms, hymns and spiritual songs which LEAPFROGS to COMMAND making melody WITH A HARP:



lexis , eōs, hē, (legō B)

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=le/cis&highlight=exegesis

4. text of an author, OPPOSITE exegesis

2. diction, style, hē enthade l. the style used here (in courts of justice), Pl.Ap.17d; Mousēs l. poetical diction,

Going beyond teaching THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN, specificially, non-Biblical ODES, is OPPOSITE the TEXT.

The Jews CANTILLATED as song and NEVER METRICAL.  The text is made MELODY by cutting it into syllables so that the TEXT can be sung even with a one note melody. ALL Scripture AS COMMANDED can be cantillated and often calls for two or three notes.  In the Greek, singing was "using the normal inflections of the voice." After all, how can you EXEGESIS performance music when the COMMANDED PURPOSE is to teach that which is written for our learning.