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Peter left a "memory" of His "part" as an eye and ear witness

2Pet. 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us
        all things that pertain unto life and godliness,
        through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pet. 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises:
        that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature,
        having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

2Pet. 1:12  Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things,
         though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.
2Pet. 1:13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;
2Pet. 1:14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.
2Pet. 1:15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.
2Pet. 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables,
                 
These are called Jewish Fables now followed by Messianic Jews and local churches and enabled by LU
CUNNING FABLES are soph-izō , A.make wise, instruct. Wise inMousa , Dios [Zeus, Jupiter, Pluto, Hades, . Beelbōsōros, aigiokhoio thugateres" Il.2.491,
II. mousa, as Appellat., music, song, "m. stugera" [DAUGHTERS ALWAYS] A.Eu.308 (anap.); "euphamos" Id.Supp.695 (lyr.); "kanakhan .[CLANGING BRASS] . theias antiluron LYRE, GUITAR] mousas" S.Tr.643 (lyr.); "Aiakō moisan pherein"[A LADED BURDEN]
      Apollo, Abaddon, or Apollyon was the LEADER of the MUSES (Revelation 18) called SORCERESSES, consigned to the Lake of Fire. The Latin SPIRITUS specificially points to the spirit of Apollyon. Mouseios II. musical, "kelados
      kela^dos , A.a noise as of rushing waters: generally, loud noise, din, clamour 2. of musical sound, "k. luras" shout, cry, "k. ou paiōnios Abaddon, Apollyon. 2. chirp of the tettix, Ael.NA1.20;

when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
2Pet. 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory,
        when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory,
        This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
2Pet. 1:18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
2Pet. 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy;
        whereunto ye do well that ye take heed,
        as unto a light that shineth in a dark place,
        until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

NOT SURPRISING, the Progressives and Judaizers CLAIM that THE Holy Spirit gave them permission to carry out their AGENDA before they began long prayers or Lord, Lord saying.  I have been there DONE TO three times.  I am assured that makes me dumber than an earthworm.

The Church is built upon or educated by the Prophets and Apostles: the prophets define the future REST both inclusively and exclusively. Jesus fulfilled all of the prophecies "CONCERNING ME" which signaled the END of the "Jews covenant with death and hell."

2Pet. 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pet. 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man:
         but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

To FURTHER EXPOUND the Certified Gospels with Cunning Craftsmanship is to DESPISE the Spirit of God which BREATHED inspiration into Jesus-only.

2Pet. 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people,
        even as there shall be false teachers among you,
         who privily shall bring in damnable heresies,
         even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pet. 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2Pet. 2:3  And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you:
         whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

Jesus called the Scribes and Pharisees, Hypocrites using feigned words: in Ezekiel 33 they are speakers for hire, singers or instrument players.  These would be the mark people not speaking the Word or Logos and the audience who had no intention of obeying anything the performers said.

If I wake up in the morning I will post the ways Private (personal) Interpretation or EPILUSUS.  This private interpretation validates

Luke 18:6 And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith.
Luke 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

That's a rhetorical question and the answer is NO and those will be in a SAFE HOUSE from the blowing winds and storms.

The Elect are those INVITED and CHOSEN for the ekkklesia. Mani (most) are called or invited but FEW (close to zero) will be enrolled in the SCHOOL OF CHRIST which does not do theatrical or musical performancees.

Many are MAKROS
few aree. MIKROS

The WAY (road, pattern) called a SECT: very narrow.

Quote from: Kenneth Sublett on Tue Oct 24, 2017 - 21:00:10
No, exegesis is INTERPRETING Scripture to fit their own view. For instance quoting Ephesians 2:8 out of context intends to DISPUTE Paul who claimed to be informed by Jesus Christ.  The Holy Scriptures needs no exegesis or explanation which is not Word, Logos, Regulative Princiiple ourlawing rhetoric, personal opinions, personal experiences, singing, poetry, making music or gestures INTENDING to ENHANCE the word of God

exêgêtês , ou, ho, one who leads on, adviser, prêgmatôn agathôn Hdt.5.31 codd.; houtosi de . . hapantôn ên toutôn ho e. D.35.17 .

II. expounder, interpreter, esp. of oracles, dreams, or omens, Hdt.1.78; at Athens, of sacred rites or customs, modes of burial, expiation, etc., spiritual director, Pl.Euthphr.4d,9a, Lg.759c, 759e, 775a, D.47.68, Is.8.39, Thphr.Char.16.6: as an official title, e. Puthochrêstos [of the SERPENT] IG3.241 ; e. ex Eupatridôn ib.267; e. ex Eumolpidôn Lys.6.10 , etc., cf. Suid.s.v.; patrios e., of Apollo, Pl.R.427c.

b. at Rome, of the pontifices, D.H.2.73.

2. guide, cicerone, to temples, etc., Paus.5.15.10, SIG1021.20 (Olympia).

3. commentator, Gal. 15.518, Mich.in EN50.8.

2Pet. 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Private is IDIOS which means that YOU (private) Interpret or FURTHER EXPOUND.  Rhetoric, singing, playing, gestures, drama is OWNED as trying to ENHANCE or private interpret.  "saved by grace through faith" is private interpretation because it INTENDS to omit the meaning.

interprĕtātĭo , ōnis. f. id..
I. [select] An explanation, exposition, interpretation (class.): "juris," Cic. Off. 1, 10: "facilis," Liv. 2, 8: "fulgurum," Plin. 2, 53, 54, § 141: "ostentorum et somniorum," id. 7, 56, 57, § 203; Suet. Caes. 14: exemplo adjuvare interpretationem, Paul. ex Fest. p. 273. —
B. [select] Transf.
1. [select] A translation, version: "rhetoricen in Latinum transferentes oratoriam nominaverunt . . . et haec interpretatio dura est," Quint. 2, 14, 1.—
2. [select] Signification, meaning: "foederis," Cic. Balb. 6, 14: "nominis," Plin. 3, 17, 21, § 124: "in Graecum sermonem per interpretationem proprie transferri," Gai. Inst. 3, 92 fin.—
II. [select] Rhet. t. t., an explanation of one expression by another, Auct. Her. 4, 28, 38; cf. Quint. 9, 3, 98.

epi-lu^sis , eōs, hē,
A. [select] release from, "e. phobōn didou" A.Th.134 (lyr.): abs., exemption from banishment, [Grace excuses]
*2. [select] . solution, "sophismatōn" [rhetoric or music]  S.E.P.2.246; explanation, 2 Ep.Pet.1.20, Vett. Val.172.3 (pl.), Hld.1.18, 4.9, Iamb.Protr.21 (pl.).

I have more information which I can link so that you can find the TEXTS which use the words.  What people do when they go beyond READING or SPEAKING that which is written for our learning that is EIS

You've been doing this longer than I, but I think you've got the two mixed up.

Quote from: 4WD on Tue Oct 24, 2017 - 15:59:26By the way you say you don't agree with Calvinism's I and P.  But even most Reformed Theologians will agree that if any one of the TULIPs fail, they all fail.  Such is of course true

Not so fast.....The truth distinguishes between unconditional and conditional aspects of God's salvation, dividing between God's work and our duty.

Arminianism in its five points is totally rejected as unscriptural and blasphemous against the intentions and accomplishments of Christ. Man is neither free nor able to cooperate with God for salvation (John 3:3; 8:43,47; 10:26; Romans 8:7-8; Ist Corinthians 2:14; Ephessians 2:1-3, just to give a few references).

God's foreknowledge in the election of grace did not find any conditions met; "it was of persons", not actions (Psalm 14:1-3; 53:1-3; Romans 8:29) based upon what God KNEW he would do.

Jesus Christ's death accomplished salvation for His elect; it did not merely make it possible (Matthew 1:21; Romans 5:10; Hebrews 9:15).

The Holy Spirit's work in applying salvation through regeneration is effectual and sure (John 3:8; Ephesians 1:19; Titus 3:5; Ist Peter 1:2).

The elect cannot be lost nor separated from the purpose of God in salvation (John 6:38-39; Romans 8:28-39; 2nd Timothy 2:16-19).

Calvinism may be accepted in its first three points as scriptural and according to the truth of the gospel as preached by the beloved Paul.

Man's nature is totally corrupt since Eden, rendering him without desire or ability to know or please God in any way for salvation. God's election of some men to eternal life is based purely on the good pleasure of His will in spite of their foreseen evil rebellion. Jesus Christ died only for the elect, and He will not lose a single one of those that the Father gave Him to fully and finally redeemed.

However, Calvinism errs with its point of Irresistible Grace, for they apply it to the gospel and conversion, which is farther than truth. Also, they apply irresistible grace, or what they name the "effectual call," to the preaching of the gospel in the case of all the elect. They believe that all the elect will hear and believe the gospel sometime during their lives and cannot be saved without these things. This leaves the pagan who have never heard without the possibility of being born of God's Spirit, and also all babies, and the mental handicap! This is sacramental salvation, for unless the "priest" carries the grace of God's gospel to the elect, they cannot be saved without it. WONDER who got the truth to Abraham in his pagan land? I know, they do not, they must, therefore, invent all sorts of alternative theories to cover the salvation of infants, idiots, heathen, the deaf and blind, etc. Of course, they rarely define what they mean by "saving faith," or they would make it to loose, or limit the elect to just a very few.

The typical Calvinist, even John Calvin and Jonathan Edwards, seldom differentiate clearly between regeneration and conversion. And neither do you 4WD.

God's grace is definitely irresistible when it comes to regeneration, but conversion by the gospel depends on preacher and hearer. The first of the acts is God's work in salvation, and the second is the information and news concerning it for the comfort of the elect. Ministers must make war with their hearers, for conversion is and always has been a struggle against the resistance of the saints. This forum more than proves this truth!

However, Calvinism also errs with its point of Final Perseverance, for they end up with a fatalist doctrine of men incapable of backsliding. Persevering is man's action. If God guarantees man's perseverance, then he will continue in faith and good works without fail. This fatalistic doctrine, if logically followed, would render the New Testament epistles and the work of the ministry unnecessary.  If by final perseverance the Calvinist means God will not lose any of His elect, then why not call it preservation like the Bible? Jude 1 God will preserve His saints so that not one will be lost and all make it safely to heaven, but He has not guaranteed their faithfulness.

Quote from: 4WDBy the way you say you don't agree with Calvinism's I and P.  But even most Reformed Theologians will agree that if any one of the TULIPs fail, they all fail.  Such is of course true

We do not teach a tulip, but follow the word of God as close as possible, we are put into this world to defend God's testimony, not man's doctrine, or a church doctrine, but what saith the word of God, is what each one of us should only be concerned about.

Quote from: 4WDIt really is a sad thing that you do not know and understand what the quickening, or regeneration, is that you speak so much about. 

I know sir, it is YOU that is badly deceived.

Quote from: 4WDFirst faith, then comes the quickening, i.e., regeneration.

This calls for a separate post......Later.

RB

[ 
Quote from: grams on Yesterday at 13:58:16

Why do  so many  people  believe they  need to be baptized ?


grams~you disrupt threads instead of adding valid points in a constructed manner. Quoting Ephesians 2:8,9 everytime proves a lack of knowledge in the scriptures instead of having a sound defense using God's testimony to prove or disprove arguments. The good thing is that you believe, the bad thing is that you do not know what you believe and how to defend your beliefs. Maybe you need to listen and learn and thank God that you do believe in Jesus Christ as your Saviour. ]

If you do not  understand    Rightly Dividing  then  you may be  in trouble  as others here..........

Quote from: grams on Wed Oct 25, 2017 - 05:36:29


If you do not  understand    Rightly Dividing  then  you may be  in trouble  as others here..........

Obstinate. You have been shown enough to at least acknowledge other peoples views and their reason for those views. To say "you may be in trouble" shows a clear lack of desire to even attempt to understand.

Quote from: grams on Wed Oct 25, 2017 - 05:36:29If you do not  understand    Rightly Dividing  then  you may be  in trouble  as others here..........

grams, your lack of knowledge and your age, has given you a free pass from me~BUT, I'm not so sure God feels the same way with anyone who does not show wisdom by having His truth and desiring to know well what they are saying BEFORE speaking....so, I will allow God to be your judge and not me~for He is absolutely righteous in judging between man and man, especially so toward anyone speaking on his behalf and with Him age means nothing, His truth is paramount with Him.  May He truly reward you according to your faith in Him and not according to your knowledge of Him, for Jesus' sake. RB

Grams, I will say again EVERY church believes and claims to rightly divide the word of God. That doesn't mean they ACTUALLY DO. We all are subject to wrongly dividing the word of God in some respects. I have been wrong before and will probably be again, have YOU?

Quote from: Kenneth Sublett on Tue Oct 24, 2017 - 13:50:33
Norton:
Not what I said:  Those who were baptized obeyed a form of teaching.  The teaching of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus was a type or TUPOS "a pattern intended to be imitated."

They obeyed a FORM of that being ANTI-TUPOS.  Baptism is INSTEAD of being crucified for our own sins with no effect.  If I quote the later part of Romans 6 it is clear that Paul is showing the RESULTS of being baptized.

Rom. 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom. 6:3 Know ye not,
       that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ
       were baptized into his death?
Rom. 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:
        that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father,
        even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom. 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death,
       we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom. 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him,
        THAT the body of sin might be destroyed,
        that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom. 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

I HAVE NEVER SAID ANYTHING DIFFERENT.

Further down, Paul defines the RESULTS of the same BAPTISM.

Rom. 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom
         ye yield yourselves servants to OBEY,
         his servants ye are to whom ye OBEY;
         whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom. 6:17 But God be thanked,
       that ye were the servants of sin,
       but ye have OBEYED from the heart
       that FORM of doctrine [baptism] which was delivered you.
Rom. 6:18 Being THEN made free from sin,
       ye BECAME the servants of righteousness.

Form is TUPOS or a PATTERN intended to be imitated.

I have never said anything different.

People insist that we are BAPTIZED because we have been saved. Paul said THEN made free of Sin.

Acts 3:28 FOR (eis) REMISSION of Sins never BECAUSE OF.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted,
       THAT your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

OK. I get you. "You obeyed that form of teaching" is the result of their baptism, not the cause of their being freed from sin. I agree. Sorry I misunderstood what you were saying.

Quote from: yogi bear on Sat Oct 21, 2017 - 21:22:49
I know I should just let it be and not converse with you but seriously I really do not know what you believe you never really go into detail and state what you believe but are quick to make little remarks like you have done tonight and not explain your stance. I on the other hand have laid it all out over and over many a time and you just say stuck in denominational thinking so if it is not according to scripture please spell it out where I am wrong so I can see it the way you think I should be seeing it.

Don't beat around the bush but set me straight. You are instructed to defend the truth and show others the wrong in their way so please feel free to do so.

I have been extremely busy so I could not get to this until now.

1.  No need for "I know I should just let it be and not converse with you but seriously I really do not know what you believe you never really go into detail and state what you believe but are quick to make little remarks like you have done tonight and not explain your stance. "  I know you don't like what I had to say, but it was a theological stance, not personal.  No need to go below the belt because of disagreement.  And I certainly was not questioning your salvation.


2.  The Five Steps of Salvation is not in scripture.  There is no checklist or list of verses that lays out salvation in this manner.  It is an invention of man, probably full of good intentions that has become dogma.  My problem is that it is a salvation formula.  By listing them as separate entities in a checklist, it voids much of the meaning, it holds them up as equal parts of a whole.  It simply is not true.  And it is man focused and removes God's grace from the equation as it is not mentioned, at least in my opinion.


3.  Further, I have explained what I believe.  Even in recent baptism threads.  Go look.


Acts 2 with the 3000, Acts 8 with the Ethiopian Eunuch, and Acts 10 with Cornelius and his household show a common thread.  The gospel was given, the message pricked their hearts, they professed faith, and were baptized.  The repentance, the baptism, the confession are not separate from faith, they are an integral part of faith.  Baptism is not necessary for God to forgive us, it is necessary for us.  We need a ceremony, we need a marker of salvation, an identification with the death, burial and resurrection (Romans 6).  We need a method in which to call on God (1 Peter 3:20-21, Acts 22 with Saul) and that is baptism, and not the Sinner's Prayer.

1Pet. 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pet. 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pet. 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pet. 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the REQUEST FOR a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
1Pet. 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Scott defined "the gift of the holy spirit" as OUR spirit which is A holy spirit after "our sins have been washed away." Peter calls this A good conscience.

NOTICE ALL OF THE ACTIVE VERBS

Speaking of the instrumental-trinitarian idolatry at Mount Sinai

Rom. 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

Rom 10:8 But what saith it?
        The WORD is nigh thee, even in thy mouth,
        and in thy heart: that is,
        the word of FAITH,  [rhema or spoken LOGOS: the Regulative Principle]
        which we PREACH;

Rom 10:9 That if thou
        shalt CONFESS with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,
        and shalt BELIEVE in thine heart
              THAT God hath RAISED him from the DEAD,
              thou shalt be saved.

RECYCLE ONE Notice that being RIGHTEOUS does not mean that we are SAVED

Rom 10:10 For with the heart
        man believeth unto righteousness; [Unto is EIS meaneth righteous BECAUSE of Believing]
        and
        with the mouth CONFESSION is made unto salvation. [Salvation is possible because of confession: but there is more.]

That is not a Work of the Law nor a work of SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS

Faith makes a God fearing person have the right standing: not ceremonially impure
But, Confession is unto salvation.  Faith only would not save you says this verse.

RECYCLE TWO

hear, belief, call upon the name, must believe, must hear, preachers must be sent:
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith,
        Whosoever BELIEVETH on him
        shall NOT be ASHAMED.

Now, NOT ASHAMED is not the opposite of BEING SAVED (by faith only).

Rom 10:12 For there is NO DIFFERENCE between the Jew and the Greek:
Rom 10:13 for the SAME Lord over all is rich unto ALL THAT CALL UPON HIM.
        For WHOSOEVER shall CALL upon the NAME of the Lord shall be saved.

Peter preached this in Acts 2: God calls us and we call upon the name of the Lord to be saved. When they asked what must WE DO to be saved, Peter commanded them to repent AND be baptized FOR or in order to the remission of sins.

WHAT IS THE ONLY WAY TO CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD

    Example One. Acts 2:38    baptism is into the NAME or calling upon the name.
    Example Two. Acts 22:16  Baptism washes away sins because it CALLS upon the Name.
    Example Three: 1 Pe 3:21 Baptism saves because it ASKS for A good conscience or A holy spirit. 

How then shall they CALL on him in whom
        They have not BELIEVED? and

how shall they believe in him of whom they have not HEARD? and
how shall they hear without a PREACHER (Kerusso Herald)? Rom 10:14

Zeph. 3:9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language,
             that they may all CALLE upon the name of the Lord,
             to SERVE him with one consent.

SEEMS THAT CALVIN IS CORRECT: NO ONE HEARS THE SPIRIT OR BELIEVES WITHOUT HEARING THE WORD.

Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach (Go and herald),
        except they be SENT? as it is written,
        How beautiful are the FEET of them that
        reach the gospel of peace, and BRING glad tidings of good things

NOW NOTICE THAT HE THAT OBEY THE GOSPEL IS THE ONE WHO HATH BELIEVED.  Preachers are only those SENT.

But they have
        not all OBEYED the GOSPEL. For Esaias saith, Lord,
        who hath BELIEVED our report? Rom 10:16

Calvin and reading the text shows that GOD GAVE US FAITH by giving us the SCRIPTURES.  Calvin says another need is someone SENT to preach the same WORD.

So then FAITH cometh by HEARING, and hearing by the WORD of God. Rom 10:17
        But I say, Have they not heard?
        Yes verily, their sound WENT INTO all the earth,
        and their words unto the ends of the world. Rom 10:18
But I say, Did not Israel know?
        First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people,
        and by a foolish nation I will anger you. Rom 10:19
But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not;
        I was MADE MANIFEST unto them that asked not after me. Rom 10:20
            But to Israel he saith,
            All day long I have stretched forth my HANDS
            unto a DISOBEDIENT and GAINSAYING people. Rom 10:21

You are an APISTOS or believeth not which means treacherous if you do not believe that:
   He that believeth and is baptized SHALL BE saved.

IT LOOKS LIKE PAUL GAVE ALL OF THE STEPS WHICH SCOTT PROBABLY HAD READ.  BAPTISM is the way we CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Jesus says that he that is BAPTIZED shall be saved.  Peter says BAPTISM SAVES US because this is the WAY Jesus commanded. 
Paul is told that Baptism WASHES AWAY SIN because THAT is JESUS COMMAND as a way to CALL ON HIS NAME (singular) and REQUEST A holy spirit or a good conscience.  Why do you suppose that almost the totality of THEOLOGY works so hard to REPUDIATE God and Scriptures when it would be according to the PATTERN to at least READ the Scriptures. The reason is really, really spooky.

It's not legal steps: You cannot go from A to Z without going through C.

Jesus was baptized to FULFILL RIGHTEOUSNESS
He was RAISED to be owned as the Son of God.

The baptism of Spirit or WIND and FIRE is for the Viper race who COULD NOT BE BAPTIZED.

Matt. 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Matt. 3:11 I indeed baptize you with WATER unto repentance: [For the remission of sins]
         but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear:
         he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost [DIVINE WIND], and with FIRE:
Matt. 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor,
         And gather his wheat into the garner;
         but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

so if I asked you what three verses display baptismal regeneration in your opinion?

90% of the verses you posted were faith alone, and 10% allegedly mention salvation by baptism. 

over 40 verses mention faith alone saves, over 115 mention faith plus repentance. So now your saying faith plus repentance plus baptism.

Well I just don't see it that way. 

You have to interpret the minority of verses in light of the majority.

if most verses include salvation without mentioning baptism.

then most likely baptism is not included in the gospel for a reason.

that reason being that baptism is a command, but also that commandments don't save, the law doesn't save.

if they did save we would be saved by works.

plus if baptism saved, then other commandments like circumcision would also save.

but that is clearly rejected by the new testament. 

I know this is an old thread but I was hoping to reignite this debate.

again what three verses prove baptismal regeneration in your opinion.

godsquadgeek, There is not a single verse in the entire NT that says that we are saved by faith alone.  There is only one verse that even mentions "faith alone" and that is James 2:24.  If you haven't come across it yet, you might want to look it up.

And by the way there are no verses whatsoever that teach baptismal regeneration.  But a number do speak of baptism as the occasion of regeneration.  If you do not understand the distinction, let me know and I can fill you in.

Also baptism is not a commandment.  It is a condition.  Those are not the same either.  I can fill you in on that too if need be.

Oh on the contrary there are dozens of faith alone verses, it's just that the repentance verses out number them. 

Luke 7:48-50; 8:12; 18:42;  John 1:7, 12; 2:23; 3:15, 16, 18, 36; 4:39; 4:41, 42; 5:24, 46-47; 6:29, 35, 40, 47; 8:24, 29, 30; 9:35-38; 10:24-26; 11:15, 25, 26, 41, 42; 12:36, 46; 13:19; 14:1-6, 17:20, 21; 19:35; 20:29, 31;  Acts 3:16; 4:4, 32; 8:12, 37; 9:42; 10:45; 11:21; 13:39; 14:1, 23, 27; 15:7, 9; 16:31; 17:11, 12; 18:8, 27; 19:4; 20:21; 26:18;  Romans 1:16, 17; 3:22, 25, 26, 27, 28, 30; 4:3, 5, 9, 11, 13, 14-16, 24; 5:1, 2; 9:30, 32, 33; 10:4, 6, 9, 10; 11:20, 15:13  1Corinthians 1:21;  2Corinthians 4:4;  Galatians 2:16, 20; 3:2, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 14, 22, 24, 26; 5:5 ;

Quote from: godsquadgeek on Fri Jul 06, 2018 - 16:19:15
Oh on the contrary there are dozens of faith alone verses, it's just that the repentance verses out number them. 

Luke 7:48-50; 8:12; 18:42;  John 1:7, 12; 2:23; 3:15, 16, 18, 36; 4:39; 4:41, 42; 5:24, 46-47; 6:29, 35, 40, 47; 8:24, 29, 30; 9:35-38; 10:24-26; 11:15, 25, 26, 41, 42; 12:36, 46; 13:19; 14:1-6, 17:20, 21; 19:35; 20:29, 31;  Acts 3:16; 4:4, 32; 8:12, 37; 9:42; 10:45; 11:21; 13:39; 14:1, 23, 27; 15:7, 9; 16:31; 17:11, 12; 18:8, 27; 19:4; 20:21; 26:18;  Romans 1:16, 17; 3:22, 25, 26, 27, 28, 30; 4:3, 5, 9, 11, 13, 14-16, 24; 5:1, 2; 9:30, 32, 33; 10:4, 6, 9, 10; 11:20, 15:13  1Corinthians 1:21;  2Corinthians 4:4;  Galatians 2:16, 20; 3:2, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 14, 22, 24, 26; 5:5 ;

Your crucial word "alone" is not found in a single one of those verses.  NOT ONE.  Trying to produce a theology of faith alone by inserting, inappropriately, the word alone in them is all rather deceptive.

Quote4WD said,
godsquadgeek, There is not a single verse in the entire NT that says that we are saved by faith alone.  There is only one verse that even mentions "faith alone" and that is James 2:24.  If you haven't come across it yet, you might want to look it up.

I think maybe you should look it up too. Baptism is after salvation. A sacrament or a ritual that pleases God, I believe.

Ephesians 2:8-9 New King James Version (NKJV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

now some of those are sketchy references to faith alone I admit, so I have a more direct list of verses that are faith alone:

Luke 7:50; 8:12; 18:42
John 3:15, 16, 18, 36
Acts 8:12; 16:31; 26:18
Romans 4:5; 10:9,10
Ephesians 2:8
2 Timothy 3:15
Hebrews 10:39
1 John 5:1, 13
Jude 4,5

If one recognizes the above 17 faith alone verses, or free grace verses as it has been also called, and then one also knows the "repent unto salvation" verses 107 verses one may put the two together and realize that salvation is simply by faith, plus repentance of sin.  Not works, it is still by grace.  Because it's not how effective you repent of sin, it's that you give an honest attempt at turning your life over to Christ, and give it to Him so He can save you. It's surrendering to Him.  Not working for salvation, it's a gift.  but surrender is involved.  Now when you have sound doctrine you can read any verse of the new testament and this makes sense.  When you believe one to three verses about baptism for salvation, then things get conviluted, because baptism is like circumcision.  It's an outward statement of an inward change, it's not itself an inward thing, not faith, but it is a work of the flesh.

Romans 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose [a]praise is not from men but from God.

the above is truly sound doctrine:

1 Timothy 4:6
If you instruct the brethren in these things, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished in the words of faith and of the good doctrine which you have carefully followed.

Quotesalvation is simply by faith, plus repentance of sin.  Not works, it is still by grace.

Just curious in the above statement what is the works you are referencing here? 

What do you mean by works?

Can you give me an example of a work based salvation from your statement above

we are saved by works, but it is a single work of the cross, and not works of the flesh.

as in baptism, ceremony, incense, prayers, confession, circumsicion.

these are all outward things, we are saved by the faith that is within

Quote from: godsquadgeek on Fri Jul 06, 2018 - 19:12:35
we are saved by works, but it is a single work of the cross, and not works of the flesh.

as in baptism, ceremony, incense, prayers, confession, circumsicion.

these are all outward things, we are saved by the faith that is within

So then, is everyone saved?

Your list of works is interesting to me.

I can see where you get work from self in from  ceremony, incense, prayers, and confession but baptism (biblical baptism) iI do not see where work from self is involved.

Biblical baptism is one person baptizing you not you baptizing yourself. In all new testament incidents it is someone baptizing the other. It is the only one that is done to you not you doing it.  The only thing thing you do is submit by surrendering to someone to do it to you. Even then it is not the person doing the work in baptism it is God that is transforming you into a new life. It is all submissive on human part man can not do the work that is done in baptism only God has that power to transform one to a new life. Paul makes that clear in Romans 6.

Quote from: godsquadgeek on Fri Jul 06, 2018 - 18:50:09
now some of those are sketchy references to faith alone I admit, so I have a more direct list of verses that are faith alone:

Luke 7:50; 8:12; 18:42
John 3:15, 16, 18, 36
Acts 8:12; 16:31; 26:18
Romans 4:5; 10:9,10
Ephesians 2:8
2 Timothy 3:15
Hebrews 10:39
1 John 5:1, 13
Jude 4,5

If one recognizes the above 17 faith alone verses, or free grace verses as it has been also called, and then one also knows the "repent unto salvation" verses 107 verses one may put the two together and realize that salvation is simply by faith, plus repentance of sin.  Not works, it is still by grace.  Because it's not how effective you repent of sin, it's that you give an honest attempt at turning your life over to Christ, and give it to Him so He can save you. It's surrendering to Him.  Not working for salvation, it's a gift.  but surrender is involved.  Now when you have sound doctrine you can read any verse of the new testament and this makes sense.  When you believe one to three verses about baptism for salvation, then things get conviluted, because baptism is like circumcision.  It's an outward statement of an inward change, it's not itself an inward thing, not faith, but it is a work of the flesh.

Romans 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose [a]praise is not from men but from God.

the above is truly sound doctrine:

1 Timothy 4:6
If you instruct the brethren in these things, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished in the words of faith and of the good doctrine which you have carefully followed.

If I may, three points.

First, all scripture has equal merit and value. They may not all be applicable to all of the same people in the same way or at the same time, but each verse is as inspired and true as any other. To stake your claim on what a majority of verses say over what a minimum say, when all of those verses deal with the same topic, is a very poor way of handling scripture. All it takes is one verse to state a truth in its particular context on that topic and it cannot be overridden by ten others that say something else in their particular contexts on the same topic. The whole of the passages on the same topic should have equal weight and consideration when studying said topic.

Second, and closely related to the first point, if something is mentioned in one passage on the topic and it is not mention in another passage on the same topic, the passage that does not mention what is found in the first passage is not necessarily excluding what is said in the first passage. In other words, lack of mention does not equal exclusion. For example, you are all about faith unto salvation, as well as repentance, and everybody absolutely agrees, but if a passage, such as Titus 3:4-7 does not mention faith or repentance, is Paul then excluding faith and repentance? Of course not. It is just that they do not have to be mentioned in that particular context in keeping with what Paul is wanting to communicate there. Faith and repentance are brought up in other contexts; he does not want to refer to them there.

Third, regarding works, any time Paul and others say that works on our part are excluded from salvation, then it has to do with those efforts that originate in man and are an attempt to accomplish salvation by our own power. This can include works of the law of Moses, which Paul writes about with much contempt when to comes to our salvation. It can even include any good deeds and efforts with honest motives, but still have no salvific value as far as God says.

Also, if God says to do a thing in order to be saved, then the doing of that thing is not a work, as defined and excluded by Paul. What is a person to do when God asks him why he didn't do what he was told to do to receive God's gift of grace? Is he going to answer to God that he didn't want to be saved by works? The Israelites had to cross the dry seabed to be saved from slavery to Egypt. Were they saved by their works, or wholly by God's grace and power? Nobody in their right mind would attribute any saving power to the obedience of the Israelites. God did all the work and paved the way for the Israelites to obey a command that would further glorify God for the salvation He had accomplished for them.

So, how would I apply the above points here? Take a look at Acts 16:30-31. A lot of passages tell us to believe to be saved. The majority of folks here will not argue against that; it is regarded as an absolute truth. The problem is when we read a passage like Mark 16:15-16, when it says something else about how to be saved, then folks want to argue against it, as if that passage has less value or merit as the word of God, or because the other passage does not state baptism as a condition to be saved. They both say do this to be saved. The lack of mention in Acts 16:31 does not constitute exclusion of baptism, especially since a few verses later we find that they were taught baptism and they obeyed it. Mark 16 tells us why they did it in Acts 16.

I agree Soterion. The believe and be saved verses in NO way nullify the repent and be baptized to be saved verses, etc, etc. The entire New Testament MUST be taken collectively and cummulatively, one precept upon another. We were not told that the 3000 confessed with their lips that Jesus is Lord, but is there any doubt that they did?

Isaiah 1 is the TEACHING about BAPTISM and is parallel to Mark 16.
The prophets defined the church both inclusively and exclusively.
The Apostles MADE THESE KNOWN by the Inspiration of the Spirit.

Timothy and his family would have attended SYNAGOGUE or been taught by His Mother and Grandmother.
Timothy was WISE UNTO SALVATION because the PROPHETS were taught in the Synagogue.
Jesus was not unusual in being able to question the rabbi at the age of 12. Josephus was a teacher at age 14.

Acts 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them,
       that they abstain from pollutions of idols,
       and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that PREACH HIM being READ in the SYNAGOGUE every sabbath day.

ANYONE WHO ATTENDED SYNAGOGUE AS A SCHOOL WOULD BE READY AND WILLING WHEN MESSIAH CAME.

2Tim. 3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
2Tim. 3:11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
2Tim. 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
2Tim. 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

2Tim. 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast LEARNED and hast been assured of,
        knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2Tim. 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures,
        which are able to make thee WISE unto salvation
        THROUGH faith which is IN Christ Jesus.

Faith only would not make one a WISE SCHOLAR.

NOT by faith only. Those who are IN Christ have been baptized INTO Christ (Gal 3)

2Tim. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
        and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Tim. 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Disciples are Washed with Water (baptized) EN or Into the Word or the School of Christ.
Faith only does not make one a DISCIPLE of Christ.

A DISCIPLE IS A BABE IN CHRISTS GRADE ONE.

Heb. 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to PLEASE him:
       For he that cometh to God must believe that he is,
       and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Heb. 11:7 By faith Noah,
        being warned of God of things not seen as yet,
        MOVED with fear,
        PREPARED an ark to the saving of his house;
                by the which he condemned the world,
                and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Baptism is a VISUAL AID against those who REFUSE TO OBEY THE GOSPEL WHICH THEY CLAIM TO BELIEV.

Quote from: Kenneth Sublett on Fri Jul 06, 2018 - 21:53:16
Isaiah 1 is the TEACHING about BAPTISM and is parallel to Mark 16.
The prophets defined the church both inclusively and exclusively.
The Apostles MADE THESE KNOWN by the Inspiration of the Spirit.

Timothy and his family would have attended SYNAGOGUE or been taught by His Mother and Grandmother.
Timothy was WISE UNTO SALVATION because the PROPHETS were taught in the Synagogue.
Jesus was not unusual in being able to question the rabbi at the age of 12. Josephus was a teacher at age 14.

Acts 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them,
       that they abstain from pollutions of idols,
       and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that PREACH HIM being READ in the SYNAGOGUE every sabbath day.

ANYONE WHO ATTENDED SYNAGOGUE AS A SCHOOL WOULD BE READY AND WILLING WHEN MESSIAH CAME.

2Tim. 3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
2Tim. 3:11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
2Tim. 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
2Tim. 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

2Tim. 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast LEARNED and hast been assured of,
        knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2Tim. 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures,
        which are able to make thee WISE unto salvation
        THROUGH faith which is IN Christ Jesus.

Faith only would not make one a WISE SCHOLAR.

NOT by faith only. Those who are IN Christ have been baptized INTO Christ (Gal 3)

2Tim. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
        and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Tim. 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Disciples are Washed with Water (baptized) EN or Into the Word or the School of Christ.
Faith only does not make one a DISCIPLE of Christ.

A DISCIPLE IS A BABE IN CHRISTS GRADE ONE.

Heb. 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to PLEASE him:
       For he that cometh to God must believe that he is,
       and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Heb. 11:7 By faith Noah,
        being warned of God of things not seen as yet,
        MOVED with fear,
        PREPARED an ark to the saving of his house;
                by the which he condemned the world,
                and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Baptism is a VISUAL AID against those who REFUSE TO OBEY THE GOSPEL WHICH THEY CLAIM TO BELIEV.

I agree with most of this, but I don't see how most of this has to do with baptism.

I see that the last post is meaning that one signifies baptism as a type of salvation, down with the oldman and up with the new creation in Christ.  Yes I agree that this is a type.

Quote from: soterion on Fri Jul 06, 2018 - 20:09:50
If I may, three points.

First, all scripture has equal merit and value. They may not all be applicable to all of the same people in the same way or at the same time, but each verse is as inspired and true as any other. To stake your claim on what a majority of verses say over what a minimum say, when all of those verses deal with the same topic, is a very poor way of handling scripture. All it takes is one verse to state a truth in its particular context on that topic and it cannot be overridden by ten others that say something else in their particular contexts on the same topic. The whole of the passages on the same topic should have equal weight and consideration when studying said topic.

Second, and closely related to the first point, if something is mentioned in one passage on the topic and it is not mention in another passage on the same topic, the passage that does not mention what is found in the first passage is not necessarily excluding what is said in the first passage. In other words, lack of mention does not equal exclusion. For example, you are all about faith unto salvation, as well as repentance, and everybody absolutely agrees, but if a passage, such as Titus 3:4-7 does not mention faith or repentance, is Paul then excluding faith and repentance? Of course not. It is just that they do not have to be mentioned in that particular context in keeping with what Paul is wanting to communicate there. Faith and repentance are brought up in other contexts; he does not want to refer to them there.

Third, regarding works, any time Paul and others say that works on our part are excluded from salvation, then it has to do with those efforts that originate in man and are an attempt to accomplish salvation by our own power. This can include works of the law of Moses, which Paul writes about with much contempt when to comes to our salvation. It can even include any good deeds and efforts with honest motives, but still have no salvific value as far as God says.

Also, if God says to do a thing in order to be saved, then the doing of that thing is not a work, as defined and excluded by Paul. What is a person to do when God asks him why he didn't do what he was told to do to receive God's gift of grace? Is he going to answer to God that he didn't want to be saved by works? The Israelites had to cross the dry seabed to be saved from slavery to Egypt. Were they saved by their works, or wholly by God's grace and power? Nobody in their right mind would attribute any saving power to the obedience of the Israelites. God did all the work and paved the way for the Israelites to obey a command that would further glorify God for the salvation He had accomplished for them.

So, how would I apply the above points here? Take a look at Acts 16:30-31. A lot of passages tell us to believe to be saved. The majority of folks here will not argue against that; it is regarded as an absolute truth. The problem is when we read a passage like Mark 16:15-16, when it says something else about how to be saved, then folks want to argue against it, as if that passage has less value or merit as the word of God, or because the other passage does not state baptism as a condition to be saved. They both say do this to be saved. The lack of mention in Acts 16:31 does not constitute exclusion of baptism, especially since a few verses later we find that they were taught baptism and they obeyed it. Mark 16 tells us why they did it in Acts 16.

I showed you dozens of verses that mention faith alone to be saved. 

I don't want oppinion, I wan't dozens of verses proving the opposite.

Or I win.  the majority of scripture agrees with me.

Quote from: Jaime on Fri Jul 06, 2018 - 20:17:53
I agree Soterion. The believe and be saved verses in NO way nullify the repent and be baptized to be saved verses, etc, etc. The entire New Testament MUST be taken collectively and cummulatively, one precept upon another. We were not told that the 3000 confessed with their lips that Jesus is Lord, but is there any doubt that they did?

in a theological debate it's best to use verses, over opinion.

Everyone who is familiar with the baptismal regeneration debate is versed on mark 16, it's one of the most often quoted verses in this debate, so lets discuss this....

Does mark 16 teach baptismal regeneration?



Answer: As with any single verse or passage, we discern what it teaches through careful consideration of the language and context of the verse. We also filter it through what we know the Bible teaches elsewhere on the subject. In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9). So, any interpretation which comes to the conclusion that baptism, or any other act, is necessary for salvation is a faulty interpretation.

Regarding Mark 16:16, it is important to remember that there are some textual problems with Mark chapter 16, verses 9-20. There is some question as to whether these verses were originally part of the Gospel of Mark or whether they were added later by a scribe. As a result, it is best not to base a key doctrine on anything from Mark 16:9-20, such as snake handling, unless it is also supported by other passages of Scripture.

Assuming that verse 16 is original to Mark, does it teach that baptism is required for salvation? The short answer is, no, it does not. In order to make it teach that baptism is required for salvation, one must go beyond what the verse actually says. What this verse does teach is that belief is necessary for salvation, which is consistent with the countless verses where only belief is mentioned (e.g., John 3:18; John 5:24; John 12:44; John 20:31; 1 John 5:13).

"He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned" (Mark 16:16). This verse is composed of two basic statements. 1—He who believes and is baptized will be saved. 2—He who does not believe will be condemned.

While this verse tells us something about believers who have been baptized (they are saved), it does not say anything about believers who have not been baptized. In order for this verse to teach that baptism is necessary for salvation, a third statement would be necessary, viz., "He who believes and is not baptized will be condemned" or "He who is not baptized will be condemned." But, of course, neither of these statements is found in the verse.

Those who try to use Mark 16:16 to teach that baptism is necessary for salvation commit a common but serious mistake that is sometimes called the Negative Inference Fallacy. This is the rule to follow: "If a statement is true, we cannot assume that all negations (or opposites) of that statement are also true." For example, the statement "a dog with brown spots is an animal" is true; however, the negative, "if a dog does not have brown spots, it is not an animal" is false. In the same way, "he who believes and is baptized will be saved" is true; however, the statement "he who believes but is not baptized will not be saved" is an unwarranted assumption. Yet this is exactly the assumption made by those who support baptismal regeneration.

Consider this example: "Whoever believes and lives in Kansas will be saved, but those that do not believe are condemned." This statement is strictly true; Kansans who believe in Jesus will be saved. However, to say that only those believers who live in Kansas are saved is an illogical and false assumption. The statement does not say a believer must live in Kansas in order to go to heaven. Similarly, Mark 16:16 does not say a believer must be baptized. The verse states a fact about baptized believers (they will be saved), but it says exactly nothing about believers who have not been baptized. There may be believers who do not dwell in Kansas, yet they are still saved; and there may be believers who have not been baptized, yet they, too, are still saved.

The one specific condition required for salvation is stated in the second part of Mark 16:16: "Whoever does not believe will be condemned." In essence, Jesus has given both the positive condition of belief (whoever believes will be saved) and the negative condition of unbelief (whoever does not believe will be condemned). Therefore, we can say with absolute certainty that belief is the requirement for salvation. More importantly, we see this condition restated positively and negatively throughout Scripture (John 3:16; John 3:18; John 3:36; John 5:24; John 6:53-54; John 8:24; Acts 16:31).

Jesus mentions a condition related to salvation (baptism) in Mark 16:16. But a related condition should not be confused with a requirement. For example, having a fever is related to being ill, but a fever is not required for illness to be present. Nowhere in the Bible do we find a statement such as "whoever is not baptized will be condemned." Therefore, we cannot say that baptism is necessary for salvation based on Mark 16:16 or any other verse.

Does Mark 16:16 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation? No, it does not. It clearly establishes that belief is required for salvation, but it does not prove or disprove the idea of baptism being a requirement. How can we know, then, if one must be baptized in order to be saved? We must look to the full counsel of God's Word. Here is a summary of the evidence:

1—The Bible is clear that we are saved by faith alone. Abraham was saved by faith, and we are saved by faith (Romans 4:1-25; Galatians 3:6-22).

2—Throughout the Bible, in every dispensation, people have been saved without being baptized. Every believer in the Old Testament (e.g., Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon) was saved but not baptized. The thief on the cross was saved but not baptized. Cornelius was saved before he was baptized (Acts 10:44-46).

3—Baptism is a testimony of our faith and a public declaration that we believe in Jesus Christ. The Scriptures tell us that we have eternal life the moment we believe (John 5:24), and belief always comes before being baptized. Baptism does not save us any more than walking an aisle or saying a prayer saves us. We are saved when we believe.

4—The Bible never says that if one is not baptized then he is not saved.

5—If baptism were required for salvation, then no one could be saved without another party being present. Someone must be there to baptize a person before he can be saved. This effectively limits who can be saved and when he can be saved. The consequences of this doctrine, when carried to a logical conclusion, are devastating. For example, a soldier who believes on the battlefield but is killed before he can be baptized would go to hell.

6—Throughout the Bible we see that at the point of faith a believer possesses all the promises and blessings of salvation (John 1:12; 3:16; 5:24; 6:47; 20:31; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31). When one believes, he has eternal life, does not come under judgment, and has passed from death into life (John 5:24)—all before he or she is baptized.

If you believe in baptismal regeneration, you would do well to prayerfully consider whom or what you are really putting your trust in. Is your faith in a physical act (being baptized) or in the finished work of Christ on the cross? Whom or what are you trusting for salvation? Is it the shadow (baptism) or the substance (Jesus Christ)? Our faith must rest in Christ alone. "We have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace" (Ephesians 1:7).

above response from :

https://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-Mark-16-16.html

Quote from: godsquadgeek on Fri Jul 06, 2018 - 22:51:32
I showed you dozens of verses that mention faith alone to be saved. 

I don't want oppinion, I wan't dozens of verses proving the opposite.

Or I win.  the majority of scripture agrees with me.

Or I win?

I thought the point of these discussions is for the truth to be emphasized and God glorified.

Quote from: soterion on Fri Jul 06, 2018 - 23:38:38
Or I win?

I thought the point of these discussions is for the truth to be emphasized and God glorified.

He doesn't even know and understand what baptismal regeneration is.  It is not very likely that he knows or understands other things concerning baptism either.

And his logic is really bad as well:

Quote from: geekConsider this example: "Whoever believes and lives in Kansas will be saved, but those that do not believe are condemned." This statement is strictly true; Kansans who believe in Jesus will be saved. However, to say that only those believers who live in Kansas are saved is an illogical and false assumption. The statement does not say a believer must live in Kansas in order to go to heaven.[ /size]

In that example it does not say there is anyone who does not live in Kansas who will be saved. He simply assumed that.  It may be true or it may be false, but there is nothing in the example that says anyone outside of Kansas will be saved.  So if his example is all he has, then I suggest it would be a good idea for him to move to Kansas if he wants to be saved.

But what about the tornadoes?

Quote from: godsquadgeek on Fri Jul 06, 2018 - 23:03:07
Everyone who is familiar with the baptismal regeneration debate is versed on mark 16, it's one of the most often quoted verses in this debate, so lets discuss this....

Does mark 16 teach baptismal regeneration?



Answer: As with any single verse or passage, we discern what it teaches through careful consideration of the language and context of the verse. We also filter it through what we know the Bible teaches elsewhere on the subject. In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9). So, any interpretation which comes to the conclusion that baptism, or any other act, is necessary for salvation is a faulty interpretation.

Regarding Mark 16:16, it is important to remember that there are some textual problems with Mark chapter 16, verses 9-20. There is some question as to whether these verses were originally part of the Gospel of Mark or whether they were added later by a scribe. As a result, it is best not to base a key doctrine on anything from Mark 16:9-20, such as snake handling, unless it is also supported by other passages of Scripture.

Assuming that verse 16 is original to Mark, does it teach that baptism is required for salvation? The short answer is, no, it does not. In order to make it teach that baptism is required for salvation, one must go beyond what the verse actually says. What this verse does teach is that belief is necessary for salvation, which is consistent with the countless verses where only belief is mentioned (e.g., John 3:18; John 5:24; John 12:44; John 20:31; 1 John 5:13).

Like I said, it doesn't matter in what context baptism is mentioned in and how connected to salvation it is, folks are going to argue against it until they are blue in the face.

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"He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned" (Mark 16:16). This verse is composed of two basic statements. 1—He who believes and is baptized will be saved. 2—He who does not believe will be condemned.

While this verse tells us something about believers who have been baptized (they are saved), it does not say anything about believers who have not been baptized. In order for this verse to teach that baptism is necessary for salvation, a third statement would be necessary, viz., "He who believes and is not baptized will be condemned" or "He who is not baptized will be condemned." But, of course, neither of these statements is found in the verse.

When you read Acts, do you find baptism being taught right away to people who are hearing the gospel? Yes, you do. You know that because they are being baptized practically as soon as possible, regardless of location or time of day. The idea of an unbaptized believer was not something that had to be contended with in those days. People didn't argue against it, except those who didn't believe the gospel to begin with.

Will an unbeliever be baptized? I would have to say no. It is for those who believe the gospel. Jesus didn't have to provide the negative regarding baptism in the Markan passage. It is understood that he who does not believe will not be baptized. That should be a common sense conclusion.

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Those who try to use Mark 16:16 to teach that baptism is necessary for salvation commit a common but serious mistake that is sometimes called the Negative Inference Fallacy. This is the rule to follow: "If a statement is true, we cannot assume that all negations (or opposites) of that statement are also true." For example, the statement "a dog with brown spots is an animal" is true; however, the negative, "if a dog does not have brown spots, it is not an animal" is false. In the same way, "he who believes and is baptized will be saved" is true; however, the statement "he who believes but is not baptized will not be saved" is an unwarranted assumption. Yet this is exactly the assumption made by those who support baptismal regeneration.

Consider this example: "Whoever believes and lives in Kansas will be saved, but those that do not believe are condemned." This statement is strictly true; Kansans who believe in Jesus will be saved. However, to say that only those believers who live in Kansas are saved is an illogical and false assumption. The statement does not say a believer must live in Kansas in order to go to heaven. Similarly, Mark 16:16 does not say a believer must be baptized. The verse states a fact about baptized believers (they will be saved), but it says exactly nothing about believers who have not been baptized. There may be believers who do not dwell in Kansas, yet they are still saved; and there may be believers who have not been baptized, yet they, too, are still saved.

The one specific condition required for salvation is stated in the second part of Mark 16:16: "Whoever does not believe will be condemned." In essence, Jesus has given both the positive condition of belief (whoever believes will be saved) and the negative condition of unbelief (whoever does not believe will be condemned). Therefore, we can say with absolute certainty that belief is the requirement for salvation. More importantly, we see this condition restated positively and negatively throughout Scripture (John 3:16; John 3:18; John 3:36; John 5:24; John 6:53-54; John 8:24; Acts 16:31).

Jesus mentions a condition related to salvation (baptism) in Mark 16:16. But a related condition should not be confused with a requirement. For example, having a fever is related to being ill, but a fever is not required for illness to be present. Nowhere in the Bible do we find a statement such as "whoever is not baptized will be condemned." Therefore, we cannot say that baptism is necessary for salvation based on Mark 16:16 or any other verse.

For a person who is not interested in hearing opinion, you have a lot of opinion here.

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Does Mark 16:16 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation? No, it does not. It clearly establishes that belief is required for salvation, but it does not prove or disprove the idea of baptism being a requirement. How can we know, then, if one must be baptized in order to be saved? We must look to the full counsel of God's Word. Here is a summary of the evidence:

1—The Bible is clear that we are saved by faith alone. Abraham was saved by faith, and we are saved by faith (Romans 4:1-25; Galatians 3:6-22).

2—Throughout the Bible, in every dispensation, people have been saved without being baptized. Every believer in the Old Testament (e.g., Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon) was saved but not baptized. The thief on the cross was saved but not baptized. Cornelius was saved before he was baptized (Acts 10:44-46).

You would do well to understand what it is that you are arguing against, lest you find yourself arguing against God.

Baptism, as taught and required by Jesus, was commanded by Him for the salvation of all the nations and all creation after His resurrection. The fact that you are going to examples of people who were saved prior to this is a clear example that you do need to study more. 

Godsquadgeek, do you not agree scripture should be taken cumulatively one precept upon another? Or so you prefer the cherry picking proof texting as in, here it says this, so that supercedes or nullifies mention of such and such? If you don't take scripture properly, it matters little IF you use scripture, if your basis is faulty.

Quote from: soterion on Fri Jul 06, 2018 - 23:38:38
Or I win?

I thought the point of these discussions is for the truth to be emphasized and God glorified.

the only verse you displayed for a proof text of baptismal regeneration was sufficiently refuted.

do you have any other, or are we done?

Quote from: Jaime on Sat Jul 07, 2018 - 07:30:07
Godsquadgeek, do you not agree scripture should be taken cumulatively one precept upon another? Or so you prefer the cherry picking proof texting as in, here it says this, so that supercedes or nullifies mention of such and such? If you don't take scripture properly, it matters little IF you use scripture, if your basis is faulty.

cherry picking refers to those who believe works of the flesh save us.

as in baptism.

salvation comes from inward belief and change.  Not external ritual.

Quote from: lea on Fri Jul 06, 2018 - 18:41:46I think maybe you should look it up too. Baptism is after salvation. A sacrament or a ritual that pleases God, I believe.

Baptizing is not something that happens after salvation. Jesus said,

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,  teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age." (Mat 28:19-20)

Baptizing and teaching is not something to be done to disciples; rather baptizing and teaching is how disciples are to be made.

I take my car into the service department at the dealership and tell the service manager that I want him to service my care, changing the oil, checking the fluid levels and checking the air in the tires.  It should be obvious that changing and checking are instructions to how the car is to be serviced not something to be done after the care is serviced.  In the same way, the participles baptizing and teaching are instructions from Jesus about how to make disciples, not something to be done after the disciples are made.