Christian Forums

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 02, 2018 - 12:01:55
God's authority

God gave mortal man the authority to forgive sins for Himself?

Sorry but I do not recall where that is bionically. Can you enlighten me?

Quote from: Ginger Rella on Mon Apr 02, 2018 - 12:15:49
God gave mortal man the authority to forgive sins for Himself?

Sorry but I do not recall where that is bionically. Can you enlighten me?

Bionically? I don't know what you mean there.
I can give it to you scripturally.

Quote from: winsome on Mon Apr 02, 2018 - 12:22:25
Bionically? I don't know what you mean there.
I can give it to you scripturally.

LOL
I typed biblically... I swear I did.

Yes, please... scriptures are what I would like... thanks

Quote from: Ginger Rella on Mon Apr 02, 2018 - 13:59:53
LOL
I typed biblically... I swear I did.

Yes, please... scriptures are what I would like... thanks

I hope that's a soft blow up hammer you are using there!

OK, scripture:

But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, "Why do you think evil in your hearts?  For which is easier, to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Rise and walk'?  But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins"—he then said to the paralytic—"Rise, take up your bed and go home." And he rose and went home.  When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men. (Mt 9:4-8)

And Jesus said to the apostles:
"Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." (Jn 20:22-23)

Just previously he had said to them:
"Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you."

Jesus was sent with the power and authority to forgive and retain sins (see Mt 9:4-8 above).

Jesus was sent with the power and authority to pass on this power and authority to forgive and retain sins.

He passed on this power and authority to forgive and retain sins to specific individuals - the Apostles (see Jn 20:22-23 above)

He also sent them in the same manner God the Father sent Him (see Jn 20:21 above), which means he passed on his power and authority to pass on his power and authority . .

So the Apostles not only received the power and authority to forgive and retain sins, they also received the power and authority to pass this on to others.

And they did, and those they passed it on to passed it on to others, and those others passed it on to others, and those others passed it on to others, and so forth through the centuries and millennia. And still those others have the authority and power to forgive and retain sins and to pass that authority onto others.

They are called Bishops and priests.

As the Church grew more Bishops were appointed, like Timothy and Titus. As the Church grew, the clergy grew, and the duties of the Bishops were divided and much of the power and authority, passed on to them through the line of Bishops from the Apostles, were passed on to priests. But the power and authority to pass on such power and authority was not passed on to the priests. This was retained by the Bishops alone.

show me just ONE instance of the apostles forgiving sins.

"8 But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.
"

could this mean they say Jesus as a man?

Devout Catholics also believe they are saved, I maintain my earlier stance, none of us know for certain that we are saved but we will find out soon enough though 

BTW, if your pastor is telling you that you are saved, those are very kind and encouraging words but I'll leave it at that. 

Quote from: Alan on Mon Apr 02, 2018 - 15:59:26
Devout Catholics also believe they are saved, I maintain my earlier stance, none of us know for certain that we are saved but we will find out soon enough though 

BTW, if your pastor is telling you that you are saved, those are very kind and encouraging words but I'll leave it at that. 

I thought I was  and not by my pastor... I thought I was  and I have never been Catholic. I thought I was because I believed the bible in Ephesians 2:8 (KJV)
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Now I have learned that what you read is not necessarily what it says and I can be counted among those who are questioning my eternity and will be finding out
in the not too distant future at my age.... cause I really do not know.

Quote from: Alan on Mon Apr 02, 2018 - 15:59:26
Devout Catholics also believe they are saved, I maintain my earlier stance, none of us know for certain that we are saved but we will find out soon enough though 

BTW, if your pastor is telling you that you are saved, those are very kind and encouraging words but I'll leave it at that. 

Catholic theology teaches that a person can never be certain of his salvation.
In effect, devout Catholics can only believe they may be saved.

Quote from: Ginger Rella on Mon Apr 02, 2018 - 16:44:15
I thought I was  and not by my pastor... I thought I was  and I have never been Catholic. I thought I was because I believed the bible in Ephesians 2:8 (KJV)
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Now I have learned that what you read is not necessarily what it says and I can be counted among those who are questioning my eternity and will be finding out
in the not too distant future at my age.... cause I really do not know.

I don't see a problem with upholding confidence toward your salvation, I just don't believe there is a hard and fast rule, IOW "do this and you'll be saved". It's almost hypocritical that the partakers of grace through faith salvation (eph 2:8) say that we "do nothing" to gain salvation, but you DO have to leave the Catholic church since eph 2:8 doesn't apply there. 

Quote from: AVZ on Mon Apr 02, 2018 - 18:31:28
Catholic theology teaches that a person can never be certain of his salvation.
In effect, devout Catholics can only believe they may be saved.

So would that be akin to an uncertainty that calls people to heighten their devotion?

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Mon Apr 02, 2018 - 15:10:05
show me just ONE instance of the apostles forgiving sins.

Do we have to have an example?  I mean, I would assume that Jesus gave them the power to do so, so that they would use it.

Quote from: Alan on Mon Apr 02, 2018 - 20:19:21

So would that be akin to an uncertainty that calls people to heighten their devotion?

There is a difference between increase of devotion, which one could label as sanctification...and repetition of justification.
A Catholic is never finished being justified and Jesus is never finished being crucified.
The process of "works" is a continuous attempt to regain salvation without ever really achieving it.

Quote from: KiwiChristian on Mon Apr 02, 2018 - 15:11:56
"8 But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.
"

could this mean they say Jesus as a man?

Jesus was a man

Quote from: Open Heart on Mon Apr 02, 2018 - 23:58:46
Do we have to have an example?  I mean, I would assume that Jesus gave them the power to do so, so that they would use it.

Exactly.

Quote from: Alan on Mon Apr 02, 2018 - 15:59:26......I maintain my earlier stance, none of us know for certain that we are saved but we will find out soon enough though 

Alan, that is a terrible way to live.  That is not the gospel message.  It is unfortunately the thinking of far too many Christians today.  I have seen it even in the Once-Saved-Always-Saved folks and in the Faith-Alone.  It comes, in part, I believe from not understanding what it really means to be forgiven. Being forgiven is not something that God does provided you ask for it after each and every sin.  Rather, being forgiven is a condition of the believer, the one who is "in Christ".

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death (Rom 8:1-2).

Quote from: 4WD on Tue Apr 03, 2018 - 07:03:57
Alan, that is a terrible way to live.  That is not the gospel message.  It is unfortunately the thinking of far too many Christians today.  I have seen it even in the Once-Saved-Always-Saved folks and in the Faith-Alone.  It comes, in part, I believe from not understanding what it really means to be forgiven. Being forgiven is not something that God does provided you ask for it after each and every sin.  Rather, being forgiven is a condition of the believer, the one who is "in Christ".

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death (Rom 8:1-2).

What happens if you stop being "in Christ Jesus"?

Quote from: winsome on Tue Apr 03, 2018 - 07:21:23
What happens if you stop being "in Christ Jesus"?

How do you do that?  That is, how do you stop being in Christ Jesus.  When you answer that question, you will have the answer to your question.

Perhaps the better question that needs to be answered is, "How does one become "in Jesus Christ"?

Quote from: Alan on Mon Apr 02, 2018 - 20:15:49

I don't see a problem with upholding confidence toward your salvation, I just don't believe there is a hard and fast rule, IOW "do this and you'll be saved". It's almost hypocritical that the partakers of grace through faith salvation (eph 2:8) say that we "do nothing" to gain salvation, but you DO have to leave the Catholic church since eph 2:8 doesn't apply there. 

Here is the thing Alan. At least the way I had always thought.

" It's almost hypocritical that the partakers of grace through faith salvation (eph 2:8) say that we "do nothing" to gain salvation"

None of us.... as far as I have know.... and least of all I... believe that you do nothing.

On a personal level ... at least I.... grow and learn about the wonders that we have been born into ( which I might add, never asked to be)... and those promised to us by faith that Jesus was sent by God... His heavenly Father... to SUFFER and die a most horrific death by being nailed.... NAILED... to a cross to be the ... using the term loosely... Passover Lamb for my ( yet not just my but everyone who comes to him and calls his name) sins.

On a personal level ... at least I... believe that He was born of a young woman who knew no mortal man until after His birth.

On a personal level... at least I... without doubt believe every word that was in the oft scoffed at... Apostles Creed...( which was not written by the apostles) that I learned as a very young girl and will repeat here for those who may never have done so or never heard.

I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord, Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, Born of the Virgin Mary, Suffered under Pontius Pilate, Was crucified, dead, and buried. He descended into hell; The third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, And sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. I believe in the Holy Ghost; The Holy catholic Church,  (As in Universal church) the Communion of Saints; ( As in all true believers, living and dead)The Forgiveness of sins; The Resurrection of the body, And the Life everlasting. Amen.

On a personal level ... these beliefs made me want to be a better person and do for others and do what I can in my limited abilities... not because I believe in works.... because that term is a foreign concept to me.

I, not meaning to minimize this most serious subject, would have to say that on a personal level... the Boy Scout oath and laws pretty well sum up  the way I believe all professing Christians should live and be....

Scout Oath
On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; to help other people at all times; to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight.

Scout Law

The Scout Law has 12 points. Each is a goal for every Scout. A Scout tries to live up to the Law every day. It is not always easy to do, but a Scout always tries.

A Scout is:

TRUSTWORTHY. Tell the truth and keep promises. People can depend on you.

LOYAL. Show that you care about your family, friends, Scout leaders, school, and country.

HELPFUL. Volunteer to help others without expecting a reward.

FRIENDLY. Be a friend to everyone, even people who are very different from you.

COURTEOUS. Be polite to everyone and always use good manners.

KIND. Treat others as you want to be treated . Never harm or kill any living thing without good reason.

OBEDIENT. Follow the rules of your family, school, and pack. Obey the laws of your community and country.

CHEERFUL. Look for the bright side of life. Cheerfully do tasks that come your way. Try to help others be happy.

THRIFTY. Work to pay your own way. Try not to be wasteful. Use time, food, supplies, and natural resources wisely.

BRAVE. Face difficult situations even when you feel afraid. Do what you think is right despite what others might be doing or saying.

CLEAN. Keep your body and mind fit . Help keep your home and community clean.

REVERENT. Be reverent toward God. Be faithful in your religious duties. Respect the beliefs of others.

I do not call these works. I call them having regard for your fellow human beings. They are not works. They are as we all should live, believers and non believers alike. 

Concerning the .. " grace through faith salvation (eph 2:8) say that we "do nothing" to gain salvation"...  Of which I am ... correction was... now I am probably a heathen... do believe that the only requirement is unwavering belief that the man Jesus died for us.

It is not a requirement that we each must perform church ordered "works" in order for our salvation to be complete.

And It is not a requirement... to be immersed baptized after accepting and knowing what Jesus did for us. If it is an absolute requirement, then that in and of itself makes it a work. And we are cautioned in
Ephesians 2: 8-9 (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. I did not say that was wrong..... To be baptised for a clean conscience after accepting is wonderful and uplifting and yes
Jesus did say to do that after belief... Mark 16:16...       BUT not needed to be saved.   (Mark 16: 17 and 18 explain the reason, and if you do not want the
Holy Spirit does not count against you.)

DO NOT ... DO NOT  TURN THIS INTO A BAPTISM REPLY OR I WILL QUIT GRACE CENTERED...... IF YOU WANT ME GONE... NOW YOU KNOW HOW TO DO IT

That's my explanation in a nutshell

Quote from: AVZ on Mon Apr 02, 2018 - 18:31:28
Catholic theology teaches that a person can never be certain of his salvation.
In effect, devout Catholics can only believe they may be saved.

Alan you replied to this with

"So would that be akin to an uncertainty that calls people to heighten their devotion?"

I may be wrong, but I think this is where their belief in Purgatory comes in........  You are not certian until you go through the purification there?

Simple explanation... Wiki

"The word purgatory has come to refer also to a wide range of historical and modern conceptions of postmortem suffering short of everlasting damnation[10] and is used, in a non-specific sense, to mean a condition or state of suffering or torment, especially one that is temporary.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory

Quote from: 4WD on Tue Apr 03, 2018 - 07:36:36
How do you do that?  That is, how do you stop being in Christ Jesus.  When you answer that question, you will have the answer to your question.

I know the answer to my question. It is that we are no longer saved.

"Assurance of salvation" is a false assurance, a deceit from the father of lies.

Quote from: 4WD on Tue Apr 03, 2018 - 07:36:36
Perhaps the better question that needs to be answered is, "How does one become "in Jesus Christ"?

Oh no, not another faith alone vs baptism thread.

You said:

Quote from: Ginger Rella on Tue Apr 03, 2018 - 07:48:21And It is not a requirement... to be immersed baptized after accepting and knowing what Jesus did for us. If it is an absolute requirement, then that in and of itself makes it a work. And we are cautioned in
Ephesians 2: 8-9 (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Then you said

Quote from: Ginger RellaDO NOT ... DO NOT  TURN THIS INTO A BAPTISM REPLY OR I WILL QUIT GRACE CENTERED...... IF YOU WANT ME GONE... NOW YOU KNOW HOW TO DO IT

Ginger, YOU TURNED THIS INTO A BAPTISM REPLY.  And now if we disagree with you you will quit Grace Centered?  This is a forum.  If you do not want to engage in discussion of the various topics, then why do you post at all?

Quote from: Ginger Rella on Tue Apr 03, 2018 - 07:58:39
I may be wrong, but I think this is where their belief in Purgatory comes in........  You are not certian until you go through the purification there?

If you get to purgatory you are assured of heaven.

Quote from: Ginger Rella on Tue Apr 03, 2018 - 07:48:21

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

What kind of works was Paul referring to?

Quote from: winsome on Tue Apr 03, 2018 - 08:00:57"Assurance of salvation" is a false assurance, a deceit from the father of lies.

Paul said,  "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek" (Rom 1:16).  But you say, "No it's not."  You are to be most pitied. 

Quote from: 4WD on Tue Apr 03, 2018 - 08:08:33
Paul said,  "For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek" (Rom 1:16).  But you say, "No it's not."  You are to be most pitied.

I don't see the phrase "assurance" in there.

Of course we might be talking about different things here.
a) We can mean initial salvation when we are first saved.
Or
b) We can mean final salvation when we enter heaven.

There is a gap between a) and b)

When people refer to "Assurance of salvation" they usually mean that when a person attains a) then they are guaranteed b). That is false.

Quote from: winsome on Tue Apr 03, 2018 - 08:17:49I don't see the phrase "assurance" in there.

You are right, of course.  The word assurance is not in there.  But what do you think "it [the gospel] is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes"means.  If that is not an explanation of the "assurance" of salvation, then what is it?  A joke on us?

1 John 5:11-13.
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

We can know.

Quote from: 4WD on Tue Apr 03, 2018 - 08:26:21
You are right, of course.  The word assurance is not in there.  But what do you think "it [the gospel] is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes"means.  If that is not an explanation of the "assurance" of salvation, then what is it?  A joke on us?

It says the power of God is there for initial salvation for those who believe. It says nothing about the future (read the rest of my post)

Quote from: soterion on Tue Apr 03, 2018 - 08:29:28
1 John 5:11-13.
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

We can know.

Yes we can !!!

Quote from: soterion on Tue Apr 03, 2018 - 08:29:28
1 John 5:11-13.
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

We can know.

We may know (or think we know) that we have eternal life now. But it gives no guarantee for the future.

Quote from: Ginger Rella on Tue Apr 03, 2018 - 07:48:21

And It is not a requirement... to be immersed baptized after accepting and knowing what Jesus did for us. If it is an absolute requirement, then that in and of itself makes it a work. And we are cautioned in
Ephesians 2: 8-9 (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

In Ephesians 2:8-9, what Paul meant by "works" is not any and all human action.

Paul is talking about the same thing there that he is talking about in Philippians 3:9, concerning achieving righteousness through one's own ability at law keeping, rather than trusting in Christ.

Trusting in (Faith in) Christ is never spoken of as apart from doing as He said. If He says to do a thing, and we really trust Him, we will do it. Such trust is not seeking justification through one's own "works."

Quote from: winsome on Tue Apr 03, 2018 - 08:32:41
We may know (or think we know) that we have eternal life now. But it gives no guarantee for the future.

Who but you decides to believe or not?

Quote from: soterion on Tue Apr 03, 2018 - 08:29:28
1 John 5:11-13.
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

We can know.

I absolutely love this condensed gospel, everyone should hang this verse on their wall and be done with the rest of the bible since this verse alone should assure us of our salvation. 


Back to reality, the vs above certainly gives us the hope and encouragement necessary but "having the Son" may very well be the part that requires a fair bit of interpretation.

Are we not the very people that reject the multiple watered down christian faiths in this day and age?

Quote from: 4WD on Tue Apr 03, 2018 - 08:48:19
Who but you decides to believe or not?

Sorry, I don't understand what you are asking.