Christian Forums

Preterism is taking hold of the systemic Christian world, and it should since all other eschatologies are speculating of the coming of Christ in the future. Each one was a no show starting in 1800. 

Quote from: Larry H on Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 12:14:07
Preterism is taking hold of the systemic Christian world, and it should since all other eschatologies are speculating of the coming of Christ in the future. Each one was a no show starting in 1800.

Will they [you] never learn?   So when they had come together, they asked him, "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority" ( Act 1:6-7).

Quote from: 4WD on Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 12:35:15
Will they [you] never learn?   So when they had come together, they asked him, "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority" ( Act 1:6-7).

I find it fascinating that everyone reads Jesus' answer here as if it confirms that the kingdom will at some point be restored to Israel.  It does not actually say that.  It doesn't even imply it.

Jesus basically tells them that their question is inappropriate.

Quote from: Larry H on Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 12:14:07Preterism is taking hold of the systemic Christian world, and it should since all other eschatologies are speculating of the coming of Christ in the future. Each one was a no show starting in 1800.

So, bible believers are not driven by speculations of others and their no show! We just live today and watch, knowing that the Lord is NOT slack concerning his promises to us!

Quote from: Peter2nd Peter 3:3-16~"Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Quote from:  Larry H on: Today at 12:14:07The world of preterism is taking form

I'm sure the tower of Babel took form in Genesis eleven but we know what happened, do we not? The same that shall befall Preterism.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 14:30:38
I find it fascinating that everyone reads Jesus' answer here as if it confirms that the kingdom will at some point be restored to Israel.  It does not actually say that.  It doesn't even imply it.

I didn't say, nor even imply, that it did.  What it says is that no matter what the end will be, you won't know when that will be until it happens.

Quote from: 4WD on Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 15:47:57
I didn't say, nor even imply, that it did.  What it says is that no matter what the end will be, you won't know when that will be until it happens.

That's fair.

But, it's a non-sequitur when you try to apply it to preterism.  The whole idea of preterism is that the end has already happened.  So wouldn't you know it, then?

That independent kingdom nation of Israel already sprang into existence in AD 66 under the Zealot-led rebellion.  It was the Scarlet Beast kingdom in the wilderness that Rev. 17 pictured for us.  It once "WAS" in existence after the Maccabean victories established an independent kingdom of Israel for about 80 years. 

Then that independent kingdom of Israel "IS NOT" in existence after the nation was put under tribute to Rome, as shown by the disciples' question to Christ in Acts 1:6 about a past kingdom for Israel that they wished to see restored again.

In John's day's of writing Revelation, that kingdom of an independent nation of Israel led by Zealot factions was "ABOUT TO ARISE" again to existence, but was also about to go into destruction shortly thereafter (Rev.17:8).  As it did by the end of AD 70. 

The Lord was indeed not slack concerning His promise of new heavens and a new earth as promised to the brethren of that first-century generation.  We're living in that continued unshaken kingdom of New Heavens and a New Earth as brethren today, bearing children as offspring that are blessed of the Lord as predicted by Isaiah 65:23.

 

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 16:30:16
That independent kingdom nation of Israel already sprang into existence in AD 66 under the Zealot-led rebellion.  It was the Scarlet Beast kingdom in the wilderness that Rev. 17 pictured for us.  It once "WAS" in existence after the Maccabean victories established an independent kingdom of Israel for about 80 years. 

Then that independent kingdom of Israel "IS NOT" in existence after the nation was put under tribute to Rome, as shown by the disciples' question to Christ in Acts 1:6 about a past kingdom for Israel that they wished to see restored again.

In John's day's of writing Revelation, that kingdom of an independent nation of Israel led by Zealot factions was "ABOUT TO ARISE" again to existence, but was also about to go into destruction shortly thereafter (Rev.17:8).  As it did by the end of AD 70. 

"Extra-Biblical" information base on secular history cannot be trusted to be the TRUTH, or, the means/source to interpret scriptures. When one steps outside of the scriptures for truth, he ends up forcing others scriptures to give him support such as you have done here:

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on: Yesterday at 16:30:16The Lord was indeed not slack concerning His promise of new heavens and a new earth as promised to the brethren of that first-century generation.  We're living in that continued unshaken kingdom of New Heavens and a New Earth as brethren today, bearing children as offspring that are blessed of the Lord as predicted by Isaiah 65:23.

Preterism do not totally reject his coming~they just stamp certain scriptures: FULFILLED 70 A.D..

Yes, I know you believe sightly different than most of your comrades but close enough to be accepted into their camp.

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on: Yesterday at 16:30:16That independent kingdom nation of Israel already sprang into existence in AD 66 under the Zealot-led rebellion.  It was the Scarlet Beast kingdom in the wilderness that Rev. 17 pictured for us.  It once "WAS" in existence after the Maccabean victories established an independent kingdom of Israel for about 80 years. 

Then that independent kingdom of Israel "IS NOT" in existence after the nation was put under tribute to Rome, as shown by the disciples' question to Christ in Acts 1:6 about a past kingdom for Israel that they wished to see restored again.

These scriptures can easily be interpreted with using only the scriptures, that would require something that I have very little of at the moment...TIME. 

Quote from: RB on Wed Sep 09, 2020 - 03:24:05
"Extra-Biblical" information based on secular history cannot be trusted to be the TRUTH, or, the means/source to interpret scriptures.

You paint with too broad a brush.

Certainly there is some "history" that is of doubtful authenticity.  Yet there are also historical facts, things that are provably true.  Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Jarrod

Quote from: Larry H on Tue Sep 08, 2020 - 12:14:07Preterism is taking hold of the systemic Christian world, and it should since all other eschatologies are speculating of the coming of Christ in the future. Each one was a no show starting in 1800.

And what are all of you preterists going to say to the Lord when this actually happens: (physically, NOT spiritually or metaphorically)

Matthew 24:30
And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

Revelation 1:7
Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

Zechariah 14:4
In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.

How will you explain your wrong teaching?

Quote from: DaveW on Thu Sep 10, 2020 - 05:42:51
And what are all of you preterists going to say to the Lord when this actually happens: (physically, NOT spiritually or metaphorically)

Matthew 24:30
And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

Revelation 1:7
Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

I think most preterists would say this already physically happened.  While there are plenty of things in preterism that are interpreted as metaphor...  I don't think this is one of them.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Thu Sep 10, 2020 - 14:03:04
I think most preterists would say this already physically happened.  While there are plenty of things in preterism that are interpreted as metaphor...  I don't think this is one of them.

Most preterests take "all the tribes of the earth" to mean only the people in Judea in 70ad.  they completely ignore Europe, East Asia, South Asia, Africa and the Americas. 

DaveW, scripture itself in Rev. 1:7 LIMITS the "tribes of the earth" who would see the returning Christ to *SPECIFICALLY* "THOSE WHO PIERCED HIM".  You cannot say that the current tribes existing in Europe, East Asia, South Asia, Africa, and the Americas personally did this piercing of Christ.

"Tes ges" or "the earth" is more often than not referring specifically to THE LAND of Israel in scripture - not the entire globe at large.  As Luke 21:23 says, "For there shall be great distress in THE LAND (tes ges) and wrath upon THIS PEOPLE".   By context, this referred to great distress in the land of Judea and wrath upon the people of that particular land.

"Even they which pierced Him" is a qualifying phrase describing exactly who would witness Christ's physical return to the Mount of Olives - definitely a local event seen bodily by the tribes of Israel in that local vicinity.  And while there were still existing tribes of Israel around to witness it who were personally guilty of crucifying Christ. 


For RB's accusation that I have resorted to "extra biblical sources" in my comment, I flatly deny this.  Everything I mentioned in my comment is based on scripture content.  The Maccabean period of history that I brought up is indeed spoken of in scripture.  John 10:22 speaks of Jesus in the Temple during the "feast of dedication" in the winter season.  This was the feast of lights celebrated by the Jews in the winter in honor of the Maccabean cleansing of the temple after Antiochus Epiphanes defiled it.  Hebrews 11:36-37 in the "Hall of Faith" lists martyrs that fell during Antiochus Epiphanes' oppression of the Jewish people.  And Daniel's prophecy in chapters 8 and 11 gives details of that Maccabean period.

Also, the Zealot factions that I spoke of are mentioned by name in scripture in several places, with even one of Christ's disciples being a former Zealot.  This is not an "extra-biblical" topic.

Neither is it "extra biblical" to mention the loss of the kingdom of an independent nation of Israel that the disciples recognized was still lost at the time when they were questioning Christ in Acts 1:6.

You do indeed "paint with too broad a brush", as Jarrod noted.  History is not to be totally ignored, especially when recorded for us in scripture.  All I did was list scriptural history, and you had a knee-jerk reaction to it.  Strange.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Thu Sep 10, 2020 - 14:03:04

QuoteQuote from: DaveW on Yesterday at 05:42:51
And what are all of you preterists going to say to the Lord when this actually happens: (physically, NOT spiritually or metaphorically)

Matthew 24:30
And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

Revelation 1:7
Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

I think most preterists would say this already physically happened.  While there are plenty of things in preterism that are interpreted as metaphor...  I don't think this is one of them.

You are correct because it has not happened yet.

There is no where that I have ever read from any biblical interpretation, commentary,or historical records that have actually said that this specificically happened.

It was not passed down by word of mouth. It has not turned up in any new archaeological records. And there has been no account from any historian living or dead that has claimed this to have taken place in 70AD or any other year.

Something of this importance could not be just shoved under a pillow as a fantasy or a dream.Especially with all the destruction.

One might argue that John worded it wrong in Rev., but that would not have been the case in Mathew.

And Jude 14-15 could hardly have been missed.

14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

It simply has not happened.

Rella, when you speak of Jude 14-15, you are skimming right over the particular group of corrupt men of the first century in Jude's days that were scheduled for coming judgment at Christ's return. 

Just who do you think Jude was talking about when he referred to "THESE MEN"?   Enoch had prophesied "from old time" about the condemnation for those corrupt "wandering stars" of Jude's time  The whole context of Jude repeatedly describes "THESE MEN" (who, during his days which Jude called the "last time" - v. 18), were associating in the feasts of love with the saints (v. 12).  But they were also "walking after their own ungodly lusts" by following the lascivious cult of Balaam that was then prevalent in the church in those days (v. 11 & 16).

Jude and Enoch both predicted that the Lord was coming with ten thousand of His holy ones (angels) to exercise judgment at His return upon "these men" of Jude's day who were sensual, corrupt individuals without the Spirit (v. 14-5 & 19).

Paul also spoke to Timothy in II Tim. 4:1 (Interlinear - written around AD 66-67) of this soon-coming judgment of the living as well as the dead at Christ's approaching return.  "Earnestly testify therefore I before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who IS ABOUT TO JUDGE living and dead according to His appearing and His kingdom...". The living suffered the judgment of unparalleled and unequalled tribulation in those years before AD 70, and the dead up until AD 70 were also to have their share in a judgment at the resurrection occurring during the same period.

I know you regard this as fantasy, Rella, but to do so, you have to ignore all the language of imminence for Christ's return that runs throughout the NT.

You say you wish for records proving Christ's return as described in Matthew 24?  How about the casualty lists from AD 66-73 compiled in Ussher's "Annals of the World" by Justus Lipsius?  These casualty lists, when compared to the census taken at the Passover in AD 66, prove a rough count of about 1-1/4 million people who obeyed Christ's warning to flee Judea and Jerusalem just before the great Tribulation, which we know was to be "IMMEDIATELY" followed by His bodily return in the clouds over Jerusalem (Matt. 24:29-30).  Would you like to know how that number of 1-1/4 million is calculated?  Just ask.

If we have a historical record of roughly 1-1/4 million people who fled from Jerusalem and Judea to go to Pella and other distant locations to wait out the Great Tribulation and the Jewish/Roman war, then that means this many people recognized that Christ's predicted bodily return as prophesied in Matt. 24 was imminent in their days.  They did not directly witness it with their own eyes, since they had fled from that vicinity of Jerusalem.  However, their very absence from the scene in obedience to Christ's warning shows without doubt that they recognized the fulfillment of Matthew 24's Great Tribulation as happening then in their own experience.

I have already mentioned in other posts the archaeological evidence we have today of the Mount of Olives experiencing an earthquake that broke the crest of the mountain into landslide rubble, blocking up the Kidron Valley as far as Azal. 

This earthquake blocking up the Kidron Valley was predicted by the Septuagint version of Zechariah 14:4-5.  If my memory for numbers does not fail me, geographically I've read that the top layer of the present-day Kidron Valley is about 40' shallower than in AD 70, with the Kidron River bed presently being about 70' further away from the walls of Jerusalem than before that time.  That's a lot of disturbed mountain material being dislodged in AD 70 and sliding downhill - just as Zechariah prophesied would happen at Christ's bodily return to that Mount of Olives.

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Sun Sep 13, 2020 - 01:20:06
Rella, when you speak of Jude 14-15, you are skimming right over the particular group of corrupt men of the first century in Jude's days that were scheduled for coming judgment at Christ's return. 

Just who do you think Jude was talking about when he referred to "THESE MEN"?   Enoch had prophesied "from old time" about the condemnation for those corrupt "wandering stars" of Jude's time  The whole context of Jude repeatedly describes "THESE MEN" (who, during his days which Jude called the "last time" - v. 18), were associating in the feasts of love with the saints (v. 12).  But they were also "walking after their own ungodly lusts" by following the lascivious cult of Balaam that was then prevalent in the church in those days (v. 11 & 16).

Jude and Enoch both predicted that the Lord was coming with ten thousand of His holy ones (angels) to exercise judgment at His return upon "these men" of Jude's day who were sensual, corrupt individuals without the Spirit (v. 14-5 & 19).

I assume your point is that this , to you,means that Jesus coming with 10,000 of his saints is a defining point for these corrupt individuals who will be met with their just rewards.(actually the Interlinear says with myriads holy angels  of him;)

All other reprobates and sinners wont have that to worry about.

Cool.

Unfortunately I do not buy it.


Paul also spoke to Timothy in II Tim. 4:1 (Interlinear - written around AD 66-67) of this soon-coming judgment of the living as well as the dead at Christ's approaching return.  "Earnestly testify therefore I before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who IS ABOUT TO JUDGE living and dead according to His appearing and His kingdom...". The living suffered the judgment of unparalleled and unequalled tribulation in those years before AD 70, and the dead up until AD 70 were also to have their share in a judgment at the resurrection occurring during the same period.

If Jesus came on the scene in c 30AD and was crucified in c 33 AD....then 67 years later all prophesy that you interpret from the bible regarding Jesus'return and the destruction of the temple came to pass. Which, you seem to see as includes Jesus returning with 10,000 of his saints..... ( depending  on translation this will say angels and interlinear says "with myriads of holy angels" (pleasecontinue below)

I know you regard this as fantasy, Rella, but to do so, you have to ignore all the language of imminence for Christ's return that runs throughout the NT.

You say you wish for records proving Christ's return as described in Matthew 24?  How about the casualty lists from AD 66-73 compiled in Ussher's "Annals of the World" by Justus Lipsius?  These casualty lists, when compared to the census taken at the Passover in AD 66, prove a rough count of about 1-1/4 million people who obeyed Christ's warning to flee Judea and Jerusalem just before the great Tribulation, which we know was to be "IMMEDIATELY" followed by His bodily return in the clouds over Jerusalem (Matt. 24:29-30).  Would you like to know how that number of 1-1/4 million is calculated?  Just ask.

If we have a historical record of roughly 1-1/4 million people who fled from Jerusalem and Judea to go to Pella and other distant locations to wait out the Great Tribulation and the Jewish/Roman war, then that means this many people recognized that Christ's predicted bodily return as prophesied in Matt. 24 was imminent in their days.  They did not directly witness it with their own eyes, since they had fled from that vicinity of Jerusalem.  However, their very absence from the scene in obedience to Christ's warning shows without doubt that they recognized the fulfillment of Matthew 24's Great Tribulation as happening then in their own experience.

This does not mean anything of the sort. First, yes, I want to know how they arrived at 1 1/4 million people who went to Pella and other areas.

But just because they believed that Jesus' return was imminent does not mean that it actually happened. It was recorded by no one.

And out of 1 1/4 million people not a single one thought to record the reason they had left?  It was all left up to a census to account for that many people not being around?

Actual historians recording things of that time and this gets left out?

I have already mentioned in other posts the archaeological evidence we have today of the Mount of Olives experiencing an earthquake that broke the crest of the mountain into landslide rubble, blocking up the Kidron Valley as far as Azal. 

This earthquake blocking up the Kidron Valley was predicted by the Septuagint version of Zechariah 14:4-5.  If my memory for numbers does not fail me, geographically I've read that the top layer of the present-day Kidron Valley is about 40' shallower than in AD 70, with the Kidron River bed presently being about 70' further away from the walls of Jerusalem than before that time.  That's a lot of disturbed mountain material being dislodged in AD 70 and sliding downhill - just as Zechariah prophesied would happen at Christ's bodily return to that Mount of Olives.

You are suggesting the fulfillment of Zech 14:4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south?

And where they now have a road?

It was discovered in 1964 that there is a fault line in the center of the Mount of Olives. That accounts for the"earthquake" of that time.

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/544724517410532972/

With out a single witness who saw Jesus and the angels. Or who wrote about why they fled I will not speculate.

QuoteDaveW, scripture itself in Rev. 1:7 LIMITS the "tribes of the earth" who would see the returning Christ to *SPECIFICALLY* "THOSE WHO PIERCED HIM". 

NO IT DOES NOT.  There is no limit put on that.  YOU have to put that limit on there to make your fiction work out.

Quote"Even they which pierced Him" is a qualifying phrase describing exactly who would witness Christ's physical return to the Mount of Olives -

That means they are INCLUDED, not the only ones.

No, DaveW, it DOES NOT necessarily have to mean that every eye of those who pierced Him was "included" IN ADDITION TO every eye of every tribe on the planet seeing Christ's return.  As I've mentioned already, it was only describing that first-century generation of Jews (which Stephen called "the betrayers and murderers" of Christ) and those Romans, all of whose "wicked hands" were physically guilty of crucifying Christ - not the current tribes on the entire planet.

It all swings on your chosen definition of the little Greek conjunction "kai" in the phrase "even (kai) they which pierced him", which may OR MAY NOT mean "also" or "in addition to".  Just as often, the Greek word "kai" is defined as "namely", or "specifically".  As in this verse for example: "Blessed be God EVEN (kai) the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ...".  Surely you can see that the word "even" (kai) in this context cannot possibly mean another God in addition to the Father of Jesus Christ.  It means "Blessed be God, even (NAMELY OR SPECIFICALLY) the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ...".  This is the same  way the word "kai" is used in Revelation 1:7.  Those "tribes of the earth" were "NAMELY those which pierced Him" seeing His return to the Mount of Olives.

Rella, I'll get your explanation for the rough 1-1/4 million refugees calculation in just a bit.  Gotta get some coffee in this 60-year old body first...

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 06:59:16
  Gotta get some coffee in this 60-year old body first...

Hmmm. You are just a baby.

Lol, yeah, I know.  Compared to some of the well-seasoned warriors on this forum I'm just a cheeky youngster.  I'm in between phases of our house addition, and for the moment have a window of time after finishing all the trench work for the footings by pick and shovel.

So here below are your figures for calculating roughly how many heeded Christ's warning (Matt 24:16-21 and Luke 21:20-23) to flee Judea and Jerusalem for their lives when they saw the city surrounded by armies - literal ones with swords - not metaphorical doctrinal enemies of the church.  There were an oh-so-brief couple of days after the Roman army of Cestius Gallus was chased from Jerusalem by the Zealot armies in the autumn of AD 66.  During that brief opportunity, any believers inside the city were able to flee before the Zealots returned from routing the Roman legion; consequently keeping those in Jerusalem from leaving the city when they returned. 

The REASON for their hasty flight (in response to Christ's warning about the Great Tribulation, which was to be immediately followed by His return) was recorded by historians other than Josephus, as the poster named "rezar" copied and posted for you in one of her latest comments.  (Can't remember which one at the moment, but I'll see if I can find it.)

As for the number of those who obeyed Christ's warning and fled Judea and Jerusalem for the mountains - Pella and other distant locations - here's how we can calculate that amount from the casualty lists of that AD 66-70 era, as compiled by Justus Lipsius in Ussher's "Annals of the World" (the very last page of his work).

First of all, we know how many people were present in Jerusalem for the AD 66 Passover celebration, as recorded in a census Cestius Gallus took of Passover attendees by Nero's orders.  That number counted by the priests themselves was...

2,700,200 (This number was present at Passover in AD 66 - Wars 6.9.3, 422-425)

- 248,200 (Subtract the number of Jews who were killed in the various cities listed, dating from AD 66 until the beginning of the AD 70 Roman siege - total deaths added together from Ussher's notes #6997.  This number does not include total deaths from Masada, Machaerus, etc - totals that died prior to AD 66 or after AD 70.)
_______________
= 2,452,000 (This is the resulting number left of all the AD 66 Passover attendees who would probably have still been alive 4 years later, and able to attend the AD 70 Passover in Jerusalem, just before Titus came and laid siege to the city.)

- 1,197,000 (Subtract from the above total the number of Jews present in Jerusalem who either died in the city or were captured by the Romans at the close of the AD 70 siege - Wars 9.9.3, 420-421.)
________________

= 1,255,000 (This final number is the amount of those living from AD 66 onward who never returned to celebrate Passover again in AD 70.  Most of this group must have been those who, from AD 66 onward, heeded Christ's warning in Luke 21:20-21 and the other gospels to either flee the city or not to enter it for any reason, once they saw it surrounded by the Roman and Zealot armies squaring off against each other in the autumn of AD 66.)

Granted, these numbers do not come from scripture, and may be based on some exaggeration or imprecision - and possibly some few who managed to slip out and escape the sieges by the Zealots and then the Romans.  Possibly some died by sickness and / or natural death in those 4 years that didn't return for the AD 70 Passover.  But rounded off, it looks as if 1-1/4 million or thereabouts listened to Christ's specific warning and saved their lives by turning into refugees during the war years of AD 66-70.  That means everything Christ promised happened in that generation exactly when promised - including His return that was "IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation of those days."

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Mon Sep 14, 2020 - 16:34:55
Lol, yeah, I know.  Compared to some of the well-seasoned warriors on this forum I'm just a cheeky youngster.  I'm in between phases of our house addition, and for the moment have a window of time after finishing all the trench work for the footings by pick and shovel.

So here below are your figures for calculating roughly how many heeded Christ's warning (Matt 24:16-21 and Luke 21:20-23) to flee Judea and Jerusalem for their lives when they saw the city surrounded by armies - literal ones with swords - not metaphorical doctrinal enemies of the church.  There were an oh-so-brief couple of days after the Roman army of Cestius Gallus was chased from Jerusalem by the Zealot armies in the autumn of AD 66.  During that brief opportunity, any believers inside the city were able to flee before the Zealots returned from routing the Roman legion; consequently keeping those in Jerusalem from leaving the city when they returned. 

The REASON for their hasty flight (in response to Christ's warning about the Great Tribulation, which was to be immediately followed by His return) was recorded by historians other than Josephus, as the poster named "rezar" copied and posted for you in one of her latest comments.  (Can't remember which one at the moment, but I'll see if I can find it.)

As for the number of those who obeyed Christ's warning and fled Judea and Jerusalem for the mountains - Pella and other distant locations - here's how we can calculate that amount from the casualty lists of that AD 66-70 era, as compiled by Justus Lipsias in Ussher's "Annals of the World" (the very last page of his work).

First of all, we know how many people were present in Jerusalem for the AD 66 Passover celebration, as recorded in a census Cestius Gallus took of Passover attendees by Nero's orders.  That number counted by the priests themselves was...

2,7000,200 (This number was present at Passover in AD 66 - Wars 6.9.3, 422-425)

- 248,200 (Subtract the number of Jews who were killed in the various cities listed, dating from AD 66 until the beginning of the AD 70 Roman siege - total deaths added together from Ussher's notes #6997.  This number does not include total deaths from Masada, Machaerus, etc - totals that died prior to AD 66 or after AD 70.)
_______________
= 2,452,000 (This is the resulting number left of all the AD 66 Passover attendees who would probably have still been alive 4 years later, and able to attend the AD 70 Passover in Jerusalem, just before Titus came and laid siege to the city.)

- 1,197,000 (Subtract from the above total the number of Jews present in Jerusalem who either died in the city or were captured by the Romans at the close of the AD 70 siege - Wars 9.9.3, 420-421.
________________

= 1,255,000 (This final number is the amount of those living from AD 66 onward who never returned to celebrate Passover again in AD 70.  Most of this group must have been those who, from AD 66 onward, heeded Christ's warning in Luke 21:20-21 and the other gospels to either flee the city or not to enter it for any reason, once they saw it surrounded by the Roman and Zealot armies squaring off against each other in the autumn of AD 66.

Granted, these numbers do not come from scripture, and may be based on some exaggeration or imprecision - and possibly some few who managed to slip out and escape the sieges by the Zealots and then the Romans.  Possibly some died by sickness and / or natural death in those 4 years that didn't return for the AD 70 Passover.  But rounded off, it looks as if 1-1/4 million or thereabouts listened to Christ's specific warning and saved their lives by turning into refugees during the war years of AD 66-70.  That means everything Christ promised happened in that generation exactly when promised - including His return that was "IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation of those days."

Sigh 

Thank you for the explanation of the 1 1/4 million. It sounds reasonable and also is recorded, therefore is believable.

But there still it the fact that there is no record of anyone having seen or witnessed Jesus return.

OK... so we have all these people fleeing for their lives. Good for them,but when they got to where they were their was silence as to why? Even between themselves?

However,  your statement of "  That means everything Christ promised happened in that generation exactly when promised - including His return that was "IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation of those days.".".........just does not hold water.

I will also look for rezar's comments.

I am not at all disputing that people fled, and if they fled because of what Jesus said
that is fine.

Jesus did say: Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains; let him who is on the housetop not go down to get the things out that are in his house; and let him who is in the field not turn back to get his cloak. But woe to those who are with child and to those who nurse babes in those days! But pray that your flight may not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath;—Matthew 24:16-20

Now: in Mathew,where Jesus says the above...

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

4 And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.

OK... tell me.In the 37 years between crucifixion and the 70 AD temple destruction...where the 1 1/4 million had fled from , based on what they had heard
Jesus had said..... who were the many who came in Jesus name saying "I am the Christ" and deceived many.

I have been scouring my files and looking at the bible and I do not find one recorded in the bible as having said this, much less many.

NOW IN TRUTH....

Simon bar Kokhba (died c. 135), founded a short-lived Jewish state before being defeated in the Second Jewish-Roman War. He was a Jewish Messianic Claimant... but is not within the four corners of the bible.

He is listed as the first after Jesus among those claiming to be Christ in
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_messiah_claimants

but seems like this would have been after 70 AD so would not count.

6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for [a]all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.

This is a no brainer. They always have been and they always will be, until the end for everyone.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

37  years of people claiming to be Christ, and wars, famins, pestilences,and earthquakes... and Jesus says these are THE BEGINNINGS of SORROWS.

9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.

13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

No argument.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations,

I assume you will be saying all the world , and all the nations are those basic mid-eastern ones? Possibly extending up to the Roman empire. Not the Americas.

and then the end will come.

So it came in 70 AD because 1 1/4 million people fled based on ?

15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

This is the crux of your argument of those who fled.
They fled, by your belief based on what Jesus had said.

So Aquila, while he was in Jerusalem, also saw the disciples of the disciples of the apostles flourishing in the faith and working great signs, healings, and other miracles. For they were such as had come back from the city of Pella to Jerusalem and were living there and teaching. For when the city was about to be taken and destroyed by the Romans, it was revealed in advance to all the disciples by an angel of God that they should remove from the city, as it was going to be completely destroyed. They sojourned as emigrants in Pella, the city above mentioned in Transjordania. And this city is said to be of the Decapolis."

— Epiphanius,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_to_Pella#:~:text=The%20fourth%2Dcentury%20church%20fathers,Decapolis%20across%20the%20Jordan%20River.

So... we have 1 and 1/4million people evactuating.. which would have been by foot and/or camel  When? After the diciples mentioned by Epiphanius were warned by an angel....?

If the disciples mentioned by Epiphanius were warned by an angel....."For when the city was about to be taken" ... it boggles the mind to know that the word had to be gotten out to all those folks at about the time the destruction was to take place.[/color]

22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the [c]elect's sake those days will be shortened.

they were shortened?

23 "Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.

26 "Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Not recorded anywhere that I can find.

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And they will see. They all will see.

But I guess they were ALL sworn to secrecy ? to record none of this or to pass it by word of mouth.....  MY goodness, guess they had great control over those wives of theirs and their "girl talk" 

31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

OK... time to stop.

It has not happened yet .There is no proof and too much just does not add up.

Rella, I appreciate that you do not swallow material without slicing and dicing it into little pieces first.  You've got some great, probing questions to offer, and they are all worthy of a careful answer first from scripture, and then from historical sources that are in sync with it.

I know it is an insurmountable hurdle for you that I don't have an ostraca shard with some ancient record of someone visibly witnessing Christ's return, just so you can google a pic of it.  Or a papyrus scrap with a scribe's written account of an eye-witness's testimony to the resurrection in AD 70. 

But consider: those "tribes of the earth" responsible for piercing the Savior were bottled up in the city during Jerusalem's siege periods from AD 66-70.  When Daniel's  1,335th day came for Christ's return to the Mount of Olives and the bodily resurrection of the saints (on AD 70's Pentecost feast day by my calculations), most of those "tribes of the earth" in Jerusalem mourning to see their prophesied Messiah return on the Mount of Olives east of the city ended up starving to death in the city's famine in those few months following.  Or they died of pestilence or civil war in the city, or crucifixion by the Romans before the AD 70 siege had ended.  Those that survived these perils only lived long enough to be made captive prisoners, as victims bound for Roman arenas, or to die as slaves laboring in the mines or in captivity.  These were not ideal settings for producing any literary evidence of seeing Christ's return.  Any oral testimony of what they had witnessed, passed on to others captive like themselves, would have been a record that died with them.

This is presuming that any Jew hostile to Jesus Christ's ministry would have even wanted to corroborate the prediction of Jesus's return by verifying that it truly had happened.   Who of them would have wanted to advertise their own humiliating defeat predicted and fulfilled by Christ anyway?  Especially since they got such a really raw experience of horrific tribulation dealt to them in those "days of vengeance".

As for the Roman army then presently surrounding Jerusalem with a siege wall that completely enclosed the entire city in AD 70, could those encamped on the opposite side of the city really have seen Christ's bodily return in that glorified human form from that far away - and in the dark of the approaching evening (according to Zech. 14:6)? 

Scripture never says Christ took a lengthy, leisurely time to resurrect and rapture His saints off the Mount of Olives.  The change of the dead saints to incorruptible bodies was predicted to take place "in the twinkling of an eye..." (I Cor. 15:52). For any Roman soldier that evening, in that brief moment of opportunity to glance skyward and witness this, it was "you snooze, you lose" that chance to view the event.  And besides, all resurrected persons, just like Christ after His resurrection, have the option of invisibility if they desire (Luke 24:31).  As well as the ability to pass through grave enclosures, leaving them undisturbed - just like Christ had done.

As for the Christian group of refugees - the approximate 1-1/4 million - they were too far distant from the Jerusalem vicinity to witness Christ's bodily return.  They had Christ's promise of when He would return in their preserved gospels and the epistles, (which they apparently believed and passed down to subsequent generations), or they would not have fled Judea and Jerusalem as He advised them to do before the Great Tribulation started in AD 66 with the Zealot rebellion.

Don't want to be too long a post at a time, so I'll get back to you in the morning with some Josephus and scripture records that align with Epiphanius' statement about the refugees and the scripture's evidence of a "False Christ" example in Acts.. 

Ok Rella, let me address your stated objection that you have not located any scripture or historical evidence of the "many" claiming to be Christ the Messiah in those years from the crucifixion until AD 70. 

It's great that you notice Simon Kochba being a Messianic claimant in the later rebellion that cropped up after AD 70.  This only serves to illustrate a continual pattern of Messiah claimants arising in Israel around that general time period.  This was actually an ongoing pattern THROUGHOUT the period from the crucifixion until AD 70 as well.  They ALL were trying to claim being the fulfillment of Daniel 9's prophesied arrival of the Messiah, who was supposed to be manifested to the people exactly 483 years after the Persian decree to restore Jerusalem (which was given in 454 BC by Artaxerxes I).

We have one example of a would-be Messiah vainly promising miraculous wonders in the nameless Egyptian insurrectionist against Rome.  This man led a group of 4,000 murderers out into the WILDERNESS (Acts 21:38).  This WILDERNESS setting was where Christ warned His followers that "False Messiahs" and "False Prophets" would be appearing during the time of Great Tribulation. "So, if they say unto you Look, he is in the WILDERNESS, do not go out..." - Matt. 24:26 ESV.  Josephus also recorded the activity of this same Egyptian rebel leader (Wars 2.13.5 and Ant. 20.8.6) who was promising his followers that he would make Jerusalem's walls fall down and allow them to conquer the Romans.

This nameless Egyptian in the wilderness was only one of many like him in those first-century years who were trying to rise to prominence as a great military champion of their people.  The main intention was to cast off the Roman yoke and re-establish the lost independent kingdom nation of Israel once more under a king/high priest, similar to that kingdom of Israel begun under the Maccabean victories (the on-again / off-again Scarlet Beast kingdom appearing in the WILDERNESS in Rev. 17).

Other Messiah claimants of those first-century years were a bit more successful - but only temporarily.  Menahem was the first (son or grandson of the Zealot rebel Judas the Galilean in Acts 5:37), with a meteoric, murderous rise to power which was snuffed out by his own murder after only a couple weeks in AD 66.  This man broke into Masada's treasury and supplied armor for his troops, as well as having stolen King Herod's royal regalia.  "In a pompous fashion", Josephus tells us in Wars 2.17.8-9,  Menahem accompanied by his armored troops went into the temple to worship, dressed in this royal garb which tacitly proclaimed him to be the "King of the Jews". This was a title that only Jesus could rightfully claim, which even Pilate acknowledged with this title nailed over Christ's head on the cross.  A Messianic claim that Menahem was trying to usurp in AD 66. 

John of Gischala was another extreme, abusive tyrant in Jerusalem with Messianic aspirations that arose during the period of Zealot control (AD 66-70).

As was Eleazar, his rival.  Both men raided Temple supplies and treasure to support their own troops, by stealing from the "secret chambers" of the Temple - which "secret chambers" were supposed to be reserved for feeding the poor anonymously and for repairing the Temple.  Christ warned that False Messiahs and False Prophets would be said to appear in those "secret chambers", but that the disciples were not to believe them (Matt. 24:26).

The Zealot leader that made it to the head of the pack in AD 69 was Simon bar Giora with his 40,000 strong army that had laid waste Idumea and much of the Judean landscape before finally arriving to take the head leadership position in Jerusalem in AD 69.  We have coins recovered in 2018 in the Ophel archaeological dig that were minted in the 4th year of the rebellion.  They feature Simon's name and the inscription "For the REDEMPTION OF ZION" on them. 

This was a Messianic claim that Simon bar Giora was making on these coins.  If you remember, Rella, the two disciples on the road to Emmaus said to the resurrected Christ (who they did not recognize),  "But we were hoping it was he who is about to REDEEM Israel" (Luke 24:21).  REDEMPTION was what only Christ the Messiah was going to deliver.  If Simon claimed this about himself on the coins he had minted in his own name in AD 69, then he was one of the many  "False Christs" that Jesus predicted would come in His own name (Emmanuel - God with us) claiming to be the Messiah.

Josephus also mentions in Wars 4.9.4 about Simon bar Giora that, with his growing power in Judea, "...a great many of the populace were obedient to him as their KING".  There's that designation of "KING OF THE JEWS" being usurped again, which was a title truly belonging only to Jesus Christ.  When Simon bar Giora was finally captured by the Romans in Jerusalem at end of the AD 70 siege, he emerged out of a subterranean tunnel on the very site of the destroyed Temple, having donned a white garment with a purple robe draped over it - symbolic of the KINGSHIP over the Jews he had claimed for himself (Wars 7.2.29). 

By their actions themselves, ALL these many "False Christs" or "False Prophets" were claiming the name of the Messiah of the Jews. 

Be back later to cover another one of your objections...

Quote from: DaveW on Fri Sep 11, 2020 - 05:34:39
Most preterests take "all the tribes of the earth" to mean only the people in Judea in 70ad.  they completely ignore Europe, East Asia, South Asia, Africa and the Americas.

Yes, it would typically be applied to those gathered to Jerusalem for the feast at that time.  They may have been in one place, but they were from all over Asia, Africa, and Europe.

@3 Resurrections

I had a reply to your last reply that I finished early this AM.

But it is not here.

I will have to do it again, when I have the time. Sigh....

And if I cannot find the time I will short cut it as I need to.

Dang.

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Tue Sep 15, 2020 - 12:08:46
Ok Rella, let me address your stated objection that you have not located any scripture or historical evidence of the "many" claiming to be Christ the Messiah in those years from the crucifixion until AD 70. 

As I try this again first , let me give you  . Why? Simply because you can obviously type much faster then I can and  you obviously do not have large replies disappear on you.


It's great that you notice Simon Kochba being a Messianic claimant in the later rebellion that cropped up after AD 70.  This only serves to illustrate a continual pattern of Messiah claimants arising in Israel around that general time period.  This was actually an ongoing pattern THROUGHOUT the period from the crucifixion until AD 70 as well.  They ALL were trying to claim being the fulfillment of Daniel 9's prophesied arrival of the Messiah, who was supposed to be manifested to the people exactly 483 years after the Persian decree to restore Jerusalem (which was given in 454 BC by Artaxerxes I).

Anything after 70AD is irrelevant for purposes here. What transpired in the 37 years from the crucifixion to 70AD is the point.

We have one example of a would-be Messiah vainly promising miraculous wonders in the nameless Egyptian insurrectionist against Rome.  This man led a group of 4,000 murderers out into the WILDERNESS (Acts 21:38).  This WILDERNESS setting was where Christ warned His followers that "False Messiahs" and "False Prophets" would be appearing during the time of Great Tribulation. "So, if they say unto you Look, he is in the WILDERNESS, do not go out..." - Matt. 24:26 ESV.

Wise advice for He needed to make them know that somewould try to deceive them. It was expected and anticipated.

Josephus also recorded the activity of this same Egyptian rebel leader (Wars 2.13.5 and Ant. 20.8.6) who was promising his followers that he would make Jerusalem's walls fall down and allow them to conquer the Romans.

I remember reading of this one. I do not remember where. Maybe in my Josephus research.

This nameless Egyptian in the wilderness was only one of many like him in those first-century years who were trying to rise to prominence as a great military champion of their people.  The main intention was to cast off the Roman yoke and re-establish the lost independent kingdom nation of Israel once more under a king/high priest, similar to that kingdom of Israel begun under the Maccabean victories (the on-again / off-again Scarlet Beast kingdom appearing in the WILDERNESS in Rev. 17).

Other Messiah claimants of those first-century years were a bit more successful - but only temporarily.  Menahem was the first (son or grandson of the Zealot rebel Judas the Galilean in Acts 5:37), with a meteoric, murderous rise to power which was snuffed out by his own murder after only a couple weeks in AD 66.  This man broke into Masada's treasury and supplied armor for his troops, as well as having stolen King Herod's royal regalia.  "In a pompous fashion", Josephus tells us in Wars 2.17.8-9,  Menahem accompanied by his armored troops went into the temple to worship, dressed in this royal garb which tacitly proclaimed him to be the "King of the Jews". This was a title that only Jesus could rightfully claim, which even Pilate acknowledged with this title nailed over Christ's head on the cross.  A Messianic claim that Menahem was trying to usurp in AD 66. 

John of Gischala was another extreme, abusive tyrant in Jerusalem with Messianic aspirations that arose during the period of Zealot control (AD 66-70).

As was Eleazar, his rival.  Both men raided Temple supplies and treasure to support their own troops, by stealing from the "secret chambers" of the Temple - which "secret chambers" were supposed to be reserved for feeding the poor anonymously and for repairing the Temple.  Christ warned that False Messiahs and False Prophets would be said to appear in those "secret chambers", but that the disciples were not to believe them (Matt. 24:26).

No... Jesus did not say this...  He never said that false prophets would appear in these secret chambers,but the disciples were not to believe them....He said 26 "Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it.

The Zealot leader that made it to the head of the pack in AD 69 was Simon bar Giora with his 40,000 strong army that had laid waste Idumea and much of the Judean landscape before finally arriving to take the head leadership position in Jerusalem in AD 69.  We have coins recovered in 2018 in the Ophel archaeological dig that were minted in the 4th year of the rebellion.  They feature Simon's name and the inscription "For the REDEMPTION OF ZION" on them. 

This was a Messianic claim that Simon bar Giora was making on these coins.  If you remember, Rella, the two disciples on the road to Emmaus said to the resurrected Christ (who they did not recognize),  "But we were hoping it was he who is about to REDEEM Israel" (Luke 24:21).  REDEMPTION was what only Christ the Messiah was going to deliver.  If Simon claimed this about himself on the coins he had minted in his own name in AD 69, then he was one of the many  "False Christs" that Jesus predicted would come in His own name (Emmanuel - God with us) claiming to be the Messiah.

Josephus also mentions in Wars 4.9.4 about Simon bar Giora that, with his growing power in Judea, "...a great many of the populace were obedient to him as their KING".  There's that designation of "KING OF THE JEWS" being usurped again, which was a title truly belonging only to Jesus Christ.  When Simon bar Giora was finally captured by the Romans in Jerusalem at end of the AD 70 siege, he emerged out of a subterranean tunnel on the very site of the destroyed Temple, having donned a white garment with a purple robe draped over it - symbolic of the KINGSHIP over the Jews he had claimed for himself (Wars 7.2.29). 

By their actions themselves, ALL these many "False Christs" or "False Prophets" were claiming the name of the Messiah of the Jews. 

Be back later to cover another one of your objections...

Has it not occurred to you to wonder if the authors of the New Testament were writing our handbook to guide us in the faith, (HMMMM another use of that word)
and to give us the the history of Jesus,among other purposes,to wonder why not a
single one of them ever named,by name any of those you have named as one of thpose Jesus prophesied when He said " "Take heed that no one deceives you.  For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many."

Through out the bible we were told of wars, and rumors of wars.  nations rising against nations, and kingdoms against kingdoms. Famines, pestilences, and even earthquakes.

All these things Jesus felt necessary to add when asked what would be "the sign" of His coming. Almost as if those you mentioned by name were those involved in the war side of things and not so much the Messianic.Even though they all had heard and experienced all of it and experienced wars, famines, pestilences, and even earthquakes..... Jesus felt need to include them



You say,
" This , (from you above,)only serves to illustrate a continual pattern of Messiah claimants arising in Israel around that general time period.  This was actually an ongoing pattern THROUGHOUT the period from the crucifixion until AD 70 as well.  They ALL were trying to claim being the fulfillment of Daniel 9's prophesied arrival of the Messiah, who was supposed to be manifested to the people exactly 483 years after the Persian decree to restore Jerusalem "

I disagree.

You say "
"We have one example of a would-be Messiah vainly promising miraculous wonders in the nameless Egyptian insurrectionist against Rome. "

I ask who is he?

It is important because if someone was claiming to be "the Christ", "the Messiah" and changing water into wine themselves or whatever slight of hand the royal magicians could do... it WOULD have been used as a prime example

Those who wrote the books of the bible were alive and witnesses of all from Jesus until their deaths.

If, they WERE inspired by God and say a  Sid Cohen or Marv Winestock started preaching and had the charisma to get followers and was claiming to be the Messiah someone writing the books of the Bible.... Even those books that never made it into the Bible .... someone would have said something like

It was prophesied by Jesus that many would come is His name and look... there was David Pasteroff who led those 4000 out into the wilderness,but we followed not as Jesus told us to not.

But they didn't cause they were unaware because that part of Jesus forecast was not for the 70 AD time.

Even of the names you have mentioned , not one made it into someone pointing out that it was he that was an example of what Jesus had been talking about.

Even today we know Louis Farrakhan made a statement of Jesus and then said "I am HE"  And did Josephus say that any of those that Josephus talked about actually say it?

Yes, there was devastation of the temple in 70AD. There also was devastation in the Holocaust in the 1940s.

The time is not yet for what is coming.

I apologize for tripping over some of these words. Rewrites are not my strong suit.

Oh yeah, Rella, I've also lost several long posts before just by accidentally hitting a wrong button.  A real bummer.  My sympathies.

Looks as if you need a few more names of "False prophets" or "False Christs" in the intervening years between AD 33 and 70.  Here are a couple more examples.  Try THEUDAS from AD 44.  Eusebius quotes Josephus about this man, that "when Fadus was procurator of Judea, a certain imposter named Theudas persuaded a vast multitude to take their belongings and follow him to the River Jordan.  Claiming that he was a prophet, he promised to part the river by his command and provide them an easy crossing, which deceived many..." (Ant. 20.97-98).

Another one from scripture in Acts 13:6-12  (dated AD 45) gives the story of the sorcerer named ELYMAS who was called a "false prophet" - a Jew by the other name of Bar-Jesus.  Paul excoriated him for his deception, and called down blindness on him.

Another sorcerer by the name of SIMON MAGUS had deceived those in the nation of Samaria for a "long time".  The Samaritans called him "the great power of God" (Acts 8:10).  Peter predicted that this man was going to be "for a gall of bitterness and a bond of iniquity" in the future.  This man began the cult of the "doctrine of Balaam" mentioned in Revelation 2:14, Jude 11, and II Peter 2:15 -  so called because it mingled wanton, lascivious acts with nominal worship of Christ, and seduced many in the church.

Irenaeus in his "Against Heresies" recounts stories of Simon's corrupt doctrine.  By tradition, Simon was called the original author of all heresies in the church.  Justin Martyr writing his "Defense" of church doctrine states "After the Lord's ascension, the demons presented men who claimed to be gods, and they not only escaped being persecuted by you but even became objects of worship.  Simon, a Samaritan from a village called Ghitto, worked wonders through magic in Claudius's time, thanks to the demons who possessed him...Nearly all Samaritans and a few in other nations also acknowledge him as their chief deity and worship him.  And a woman named Helen, who traveled around with him but had previously lived in a brothel [at Tyre], they call the First Emanation from him."

Then there are these following deceptive leaders promising signs and wonders around AD 55, near the beginning of Nero's reign.  They were not given names, but they are noted by Josephus (Wars 2.13.4, Ant. 20.8.6).  "...And now these imposters and deceivers persuaded the multitude to follow them into the WILDERNESS and pretended that they would exhibit manifest wonders and signs, that should be performed by the providence of God.  And many that were prevailed on by them suffered the punishments of their folly; for Felix brought them back, and then punished them."

Even at the very last, most desperate months of the Roman siege, there were still "False Prophets" that promised the people deliverance from God (Wars 6.5.2).  There were about 6,000 that all died in the Temple because a false prophet "had made a public proclamation in the city that very day, that God commanded them to get up upon the temple, and that there they should receive miraculous signs of their deliverance.  Now there was then a great number of false prophets suborned by the tyrants to impose upon the people, who denounced this to them, that they should wait for deliverance from God: and this was in order to keep them from deserting, and that they might be buoyed up above fear and care by such hopes."

Rella, after touching on the "False Christs" in the comment above, I thought I should give some attention to the many "False Prophets" that Christ promised would soon follow before that generation had passed.

You seem to be discounting the intense search of the Jews in the AD 30 year and onward for Daniel's prophesied "Messiah the Prince".  Do you remember Andrew in John 1:41 saying "WE HAVE FOUND THE MESSIAS, which is, being interpreted, the Christ."?  They were earnestly searching that year for His appearance.  And Philip said the same thing in verse 45; "WE HAVE FOUND HIM, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets did write..." (like the prophet Daniel).

Even the Samaritan woman was on the lookout for the same thing when she said, "I know that Messias cometh which is called Christ.  When He is come, He will tell us all things." (John 4:25).

Indeed, ALL THE PEOPLE were said to be "in expectation", (which was in the year AD 30), to see if John the Baptist was Christ the Messiah or not (Luke 3:15).

Because Jesus's ministry didn't fulfill the people's expectation of His being a militaristic, warrior type of deliverer, they "received Him not", and looked elsewhere for that more military type of Messiah the Prince.  All those names I gave you earlier are examples of those who were trying to fulfill Daniel's prophesied Messiah role by being a military rebel leader / Messiah of their own people.  They only deluded themselves most of all.

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Wed Sep 16, 2020 - 22:40:26
Oh yeah, Rella, I've also lost several long posts before just by accidentally hitting a wrong button.  A real bummer.  My sympathies.

Looks as if you need a few more names of "False prophets" or "False Christs" in the intervening years between AD 33 and 70.  Here are a couple more examples.  Try THEUDAS from AD 44.  Eusebius quotes Josephus about this man, that "when Fadus was procurator of Judea, a certain imposter named Theudas persuaded a vast multitude to take their belongings and follow him to the River Jordan.  Claiming that he was a prophet, he promised to part the river by his command and provide them an easy crossing, which deceived many..." (Ant. 20.97-98).

Another one from scripture in Acts 13:6-12  (dated AD 45) gives the story of the sorcerer named ELYMAS who was called a "false prophet" - a Jew by the other name of Bar-Jesus.  Paul excoriated him for his deception, and called down blindness on him.

Another sorcerer by the name of SIMON MAGUS had deceived those in the nation of Samaria for a "long time".  The Samaritans called him "the great power of God" (Acts 8:10).  Peter predicted that this man was going to be "for a gall of bitterness and a bond of iniquity" in the future.  This man began the cult of the "doctrine of Balaam" mentioned in Revelation 2:14, Jude 11, and II Peter 2:15 -  so called because it mingled wanton, lascivious acts with nominal worship of Christ, and seduced many in the church.

Irenaeus in his "Against Heresies" recounts stories of Simon's corrupt doctrine.  By tradition, Simon was called the original author of all heresies in the church.  Justin Martyr writing his "Defense" of church doctrine states "After the Lord's ascension, the demons presented men who claimed to be gods, and they not only escaped being persecuted by you but even became objects of worship.  Simon, a Samaritan from a village called Ghitto, worked wonders through magic in Claudius's time, thanks to the demons who possessed him...Nearly all Samaritans and a few in other nations also acknowledge him as their chief deity and worship him.  And a woman named Helen, who traveled around with him but had previously lived in a brothel [at Tyre], they call the First Emanation from him."

Then there are these following deceptive leaders promising signs and wonders around AD 55, near the beginning of Nero's reign.  They were not given names, but they are noted by Josephus (Wars 2.13.4, Ant. 20.8.6).  "...And now these imposters and deceivers persuaded the multitude to follow them into the WILDERNESS and pretended that they would exhibit manifest wonders and signs, that should be performed by the providence of God.  And many that were prevailed on by them suffered the punishments of their folly; for Felix brought them back, and then punished them."

Even at the very last, most desperate months of the Roman siege, there were still "False Prophets" that promised the people deliverance from God (Wars 6.5.2).  There were about 6,000 that all died in the Temple because a false prophet "had made a public proclamation in the city that very day, that God commanded them to get up upon the temple, and that there they should receive miraculous signs of their deliverance.  Now there was then a great number of false prophets suborned by the tyrants to impose upon the people, who denounced this to them, that they should wait for deliverance from God: and this was in order to keep them from deserting, and that they might be buoyed up above fear and care by such hopes."

Rella, after touching on the "False Christs" in the comment above, I thought I should give some attention to the many "False Prophets" that Christ promised would soon follow before that generation had passed.

You seem to be discounting the intense search of the Jews in the AD 30 year and onward for Daniel's prophesied "Messiah the Prince".  Do you remember Andrew in John 1:41 saying "WE HAVE FOUND THE MESSIAS, which is, being interpreted, the Christ."?  They were earnestly searching that year for His appearance.  And Philip said the same thing in verse 45; "WE HAVE FOUND HIM, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets did write..." (like the prophet Daniel).

Even the Samaritan woman was on the lookout for the same thing when she said, "I know that Messias cometh which is called Christ.  When He is come, He will tell us all things." (John 4:25).

Indeed, ALL THE PEOPLE were said to be "in expectation", (which was in the year AD 30), to see if John the Baptist was Christ the Messiah or not (Luke 3:15).

Because Jesus's ministry didn't fulfill the people's expectation of His being a militaristic, warrior type of deliverer, they "received Him not", and looked elsewhere for that more military type of Messiah the Prince.  All those names I gave you earlier are examples of those who were trying to fulfill Daniel's prophesied Messiah role by being a military rebel leader / Messiah of their own people.  They only deluded themselves most of all.

I am getting this reply posted before my houseguests arrive and I wont be able to until Monday.

Thank you for this reply, but YOU ARE missing my point.

I do not care how many actual ones there were. I don't even really care about their names.

What is blatantly missing in the pages of scripture is any solid recording of an event following  key prophetic statement that would definitively prove that these people were what Jesus was talking about.... Those who said they were Christ. OR the actual return of Jesus, which , of course, is what all this is about.

We have 8 known authors of the New Testament

1. Mathew
2. Mark
3. Luke
4. John
5. James
6. Jude
7. Paul
8. Peter

In no particular order.............

We have details of Jesus' conception and birth.... complete with names.

We have details of Jesus' crucifixion ... complete with names ( including whose tomb was prepared for him.)

We have details of His baptism by John... and John's name is told.

We have details about the Jailor in Acts. Not necessarily his name but details of an earthquake , of him, his family and what happened that fateful night.

We have details of Judas, by name, and his betrayal of Jesus.

We have details of the Eunuch and what happened to him

We have details upon details through out the new testament about people and what God obviously  saw as important to tell us.

Vivid details about how the eunuch demanded immediate baptism, and that it was done and that Philip was caught awayso the eunuch saw him no more.

Vivid details about the angel talking to Mary, Joseph, and even details of the Magi after they saw Herod and went on their way on a different route after they finally say the young child.

Vivid details about a donkey talking.

Vivid details about how Joseph was told to take the family and flee to Egypt.

Vivid details about Satan tempting Jesus.

Vivid details about everything of importance. And even some not so important details of Jesus turning water into wine at the wedding.

So  they asked Jesus Matt 24

4 And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for [a]all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines,
pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

And further says

11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.

This after those who came in his name.

24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

And you say this all happened that when the destruction in 70AD happened this was all fulfilled?


The most important event for all of mankind. Jesus' return there is no recording. DID God intend to keep it a secret?

Q. If the Gospel of Matthew was written after 70 C.E., why does Matthew minimize the destruction of Jerusalem? For example, in Matt 22:7: "The king was enraged and sent his troops, destroyed those murderers, and burned their city." That seems like an understatement to describe such a huge and terrible event. Is there any evidence this parable was added to a pre-70 C.E. Matthew's Gospel?

A. The date of Matthew's Gospel is far from certain. Three pieces of evidence have usually been advanced to demonstrate that Matthew wrote after 70 C.E. First, Matthew is dependent upon the Gospel of Mark and Mark is normally dated to the late 60s or early 70s. Secondly, the Gospel of Matthew has a developed Christology, which suggests a late date towards the end of the first century. Thirdly, the reference to the destruction of a city in Matt 22:7 can and should be taken as a direct reference to the Jewish War and to the destruction of Jerusalem in particular. None of these arguments is entirely persuasive.

http://www.bibleodyssey.org/tools/ask-a-scholar/when-was-the-gospel-of-matthew-written.aspx


In fact, there is no other book in the new testament, excluding Rev, or possibly Mark 13, 1-2 that even mentions the temple destruction likely because of when they were written. But no other even mentions Jesus telling of the end of the age, only Mathew. Unless you count Act 1-11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."???

Much less Jesus' return.

IF such had happened, was Mathew in error, assuming he wrote Mathew 70AD? If so then we should discount anything he said., right?

Now, I know I have been centering on these 8 authors. Some of which woud have been alive in 70AD.

Look at this list

https://www.freebeginning.com/new_testament_dates/

There are a few that show likely they were written 70AD or later. Why then no mention of the destruction of the temple except in Jesus' mention in Mathew and Revelation of those likely written after?

AND THE MOST IMPORTANT THING. Why did God not inspire someone else to write about it, and what effect it had at that time?

It is because it has not happened yet.

Okay, gotta run... have a good weekend

Hi Rella,

You say Jesus' return is the most important event for all of mankind.  I think scripture would probably differ with you on that.  The most important event for all of mankind was Christ's resurrection from the dead, because "If Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins" according to Paul in I Cor. 15:17.

Yet even with this resurrection of Christ from the dead being the most pivotal moment of all history, the resurrected Christ was NOT universally witnessed by His own generation.  Look at Acts 20:40-41.  "Him God raised up the third day, and showed him openly; NOT TO ALL THE PEOPLE, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead."

You say that IF Christ had returned in AD 70, then this (most important event ever to happen?) would have been witnessed universally and recorded for posterity.  Your question about Christ's return: "Did God intend to keep it a secret?"  Well, we know that He intentionally concealed His truths in parables for most in that generation who heard His personal first-century ministry.  This was done to fulfill Isaiah's prediction that they would see and not perceive; would hear and not understand. 

We also know that in I Thess. 5:2-5 Paul told the Thessalonian church that the day of the Lord would come as a "thief in the night" for those who were the "children of darkness".  However, for the Thessalonian believers, Paul said, "But YE, BRETHREN, are NOT in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."  Those believers as "children of light and the children of the day" were given signs of Christ's return to watch for that unbelievers of that generation were NOT going to be aware of. 

Daniel 12:10 said exactly the same thing about the coming of Christ and the resurrection he was describing.  It would occur at a time when the power of the holy people was going to be completely shattered at the time of the end. "...but the wicked shall do wickedly: and NONE OF THE WICKED SHALL UNDERSTAND; but the WISE SHALL UNDERSTAND."  This was going to be selective revelation by God - a practice of His for which we have many, many examples throughout scripture.  The "blind leaders of the blind" in that generation would be left to their own self-delusion.


I would strongly disagree with your link that says Matthew "minimized the destruction of the war in Jerusalem" and gave it little consideration.  What is that author smoking?  Matthew, as duplicated in other gospel accounts, gives a precise, blow-by-blow recital of the entire period that would lead up to and include the fall of Jerusalem and Christ's return. 

The post-AD 70 dates that your link is arbitrarily assigning to several books of the NT doesn't even consider any of the internal witness within them.  Such as verses I John 2:17-18 for example.  "AND THE WORLD IS PASSING AWAY, and the lust thereof;  but he that doeth the will of God abideth forever.  LITTLE CHILDREN, IT IS THE *LAST* HOUR, and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, EVEN NOW are there many antichrists; whereby we know that IT IS THE *LAST* HOUR."  That "last hour" with its many antichrists and the single Antichrist came and went almost 2,000 years ago, when that world as it then was passed away.

Almost every book in the NT with possibly one or two exceptions has something to say about the end of that age and Christ's return.  It seems that because you simply cannot or will not believe that Christ and the Apostles all predicted and spoke of His imminent return for that generation, you are willing to discard all the language describing those imminent events in favor of slapping post-AD 70 dates on the NT writings.  That's upside-down reasoning.

And you are not correct when you presume that no historian recorded fulfillment of events surrounding Christ's return.  You apparently just don't accept the eye witness testimony of the high priest's son named Josephus who had a front row seat to these events.  Without realizing he had done so, he recorded many events that exactly paralleled Revelation's prophecies.  Tacitus was another.

You want a record of "signs in the stars" as Luke 21:25 predicted would come before Christ's return?  Josephus recorded this.  We know that Halley's Comet and a star showed up in AD 66 - which Josephus said lingered for a year.  An actual earthquake that occurred the same time as the death of the two witnesses?  Josephus recorded this.   You don't have to believe these things, but I do.  There are far too many literal, recorded events parallel to the scripture prophecies to be coincidental.

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Mon Sep 21, 2020 - 00:18:09
Hi Rella,

You say Jesus' return is the most important event for all of mankind.  I think scripture would probably differ with you on that.  The most important event for all of mankind was Christ's resurrection from the dead, because "If Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins" according to Paul in I Cor. 15:17.

Yet even with this resurrection of Christ from the dead being the most pivotal moment of all history, the resurrected Christ was NOT universally witnessed by His own generation.  Look at Acts 20:40-41.  "Him God raised up the third day, and showed him openly; NOT TO ALL THE PEOPLE, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead."

You say that IF Christ had returned in AD 70, then this (most important event ever to happen?) would have been witnessed universally and recorded for posterity.  Your question about Christ's return: "Did God intend to keep it a secret?"  Well, we know that He intentionally concealed His truths in parables for most in that generation who heard His personal first-century ministry.  This was done to fulfill Isaiah's prediction that they would see and not perceive; would hear and not understand. 

We also know that in I Thess. 5:2-5 Paul told the Thessalonian church that the day of the Lord would come as a "thief in the night" for those who were the "children of darkness".  However, for the Thessalonian believers, Paul said, "But YE, BRETHREN, are NOT in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."  Those believers as "children of light and the children of the day" were given signs of Christ's return to watch for that unbelievers of that generation were NOT going to be aware of. 

Daniel 12:10 said exactly the same thing about the coming of Christ and the resurrection he was describing.  It would occur at a time when the power of the holy people was going to be completely shattered at the time of the end. "...but the wicked shall do wickedly: and NONE OF THE WICKED SHALL UNDERSTAND; but the WISE SHALL UNDERSTAND."  This was going to be selective revelation by God - a practice of His for which we have many, many examples throughout scripture.  The "blind leaders of the blind" in that generation would be left to their own self-delusion.


I would strongly disagree with your link that says Matthew "minimized the destruction of the war in Jerusalem" and gave it little consideration.  What is that author smoking?  Matthew, as duplicated in other gospel accounts, gives a precise, blow-by-blow recital of the entire period that would lead up to and include the fall of Jerusalem and Christ's return. 

The post-AD 70 dates that your link is arbitrarily assigning to several books of the NT doesn't even consider any of the internal witness within them.  Such as verses I John 2:17-18 for example.  "AND THE WORLD IS PASSING AWAY, and the lust thereof;  but he that doeth the will of God abideth forever.  LITTLE CHILDREN, IT IS THE *LAST* HOUR, and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, EVEN NOW are there many antichrists; whereby we know that IT IS THE *LAST* HOUR."  That "last hour" with its many antichrists and the single Antichrist came and went almost 2,000 years ago, when that world as it then was passed away.

Almost every book in the NT with possibly one or two exceptions has something to say about the end of that age and Christ's return.  It seems that because you simply cannot or will not believe that Christ and the Apostles all predicted and spoke of His imminent return for that generation, you are willing to discard all the language describing those imminent events in favor of slapping post-AD 70 dates on the NT writings.  That's upside-down reasoning.

And you are not correct when you presume that no historian recorded fulfillment of events surrounding Christ's return.  You apparently just don't accept the eye witness testimony of the high priest's son named Josephus who had a front row seat to these events.  Without realizing he had done so, he recorded many events that exactly paralleled Revelation's prophecies.  Tacitus was another.

You want a record of "signs in the stars" as Luke 21:25 predicted would come before Christ's return?  Josephus recorded this.  We know that Halley's Comet and a star showed up in AD 66 - which Josephus said lingered for a year.  An actual earthquake that occurred the same time as the death of the two witnesses?  Josephus recorded this.   You don't have to believe these things, but I do.  There are far too many literal, recorded events parallel to the scripture prophecies to be coincidental.

That "last hour" with its many antichrists and the single Antichrist came and went almost 2,000 years ago, when that world as it then was passed away.[/color]

Who recorded this? 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Who recorded this? 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Finally

Who recorded this?  31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

No one that I can find. Because these specific point did not happenor someone somewhere would have.

A comet  a star show in up up in AD 66 - which Josephus said lingered for a year is not ...."Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken

Even if you believe that Jesus came and not all saw him.... this would have been noted by someone.... You have not pointed out evidence... your evidence in 66AD
may have been a precursor to the final event but nope... even I cannot tie that in there.

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And NO ONE recorded this. 

Quote from: Rella on Wed Sep 23, 2020 - 19:27:22
That "last hour" with its many antichrists and the single Antichrist came and went almost 2,000 years ago, when that world as it then was passed away.[/color]

Who recorded this? 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Who recorded this? 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Finally

Who recorded this?  31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

No one that I can find. Because these specific point did not happenor someone somewhere would have.

A comet  a star show in up up in AD 66 - which Josephus said lingered for a year is not ...."Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken

Even if you believe that Jesus came and not all saw him.... this would have been noted by someone.... You have not pointed out evidence... your evidence in 66AD
may have been a precursor to the final event but nope... even I cannot tie that in there.

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And NO ONE recorded this. 

These are typically interpreted as apocalyptic writing.

Within the extended metaphor, earth represents the common people, while heavens (by contrast) are the government over the people.  The sun and moon represent the two anointed leaders of the country (the king and high priest), while the stars indicate the appointed judges within the Hebrew system of delegated jurisprudence established under Moses.

You probably can't buy into that interpretation given the rest of your theology, but by my estimation it's reasonable to interpret these passages as something other than literal.  The immediate context isn't about astronomy.  "Heaven" has a long history of being used figuratively within Hebrew writing.  If you're interested I can expound, but since I doubt you are interested, I have not done so here.

Jarrod

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Thu Sep 24, 2020 - 13:13:23
These are typically interpreted as apocalyptic writing.

Within the extended metaphor, earth represents the common people, while heavens (by contrast) are the government over the people.  The sun and moon represent the two anointed leaders of the country (the king and high priest), while the stars indicate the appointed judges within the Hebrew system of delegated jurisprudence established under Moses.

You probably can't buy into that interpretation given the rest of your theology, but by my estimation it's reasonable to interpret these passages as something other than literal.  The immediate context isn't about astronomy.  "Heaven" has a long history of being used figuratively within Hebrew writing.  If you're interested I can expound, but since I doubt you are interested, I have not done so here.

Jarrod

I can see why you would possibly interpret these verses as metaphors. Given all the parable and metaphors through out the entire bible  and I might  buy they are something other then literal far easier  then I can buy the preterists view of it all happening in 70 AD.

However, I seriously doubt that Jesus would have used anything other then a straight forward answer to talk of His own return directly to His disciples.

In Mathew 24 we have Him starting out telling of the destruction of the temple.

It happened in 70AD and that was proof no one could say he was talking metaphorically when he said " Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

Then his disciples asked Him in private .......

"Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?""

This was not in public where often parables were used but to His very chosen people and they would have and should have expected a straight answer.

And He said.

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Side Note:
Do you remember the story of Fatima where the 3 children, especially Lucia, saw
Mary... (NO I am not Catholic... but this happened that there were enough witnesses and convinced Lucia so she lived out her life as a nun?) It was during that time that the sun dancedand while not all saw it, those of faith did.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

It is only after He makes these 3 statements he tells the parable of the fig tree.

So, I simply call it a statement of truth and do take it literally.

And continue to wonder why IF he came in 70AD, why there is silence on this
part of the happenings?

Rella, I keep explaining this "silence" that you are stumbling over, and you are still failing to catch it.  The eye-witnesses (those "tribes of the earth" who pierced the Savior) who saw this local event of Christ returning to the Mount of Olives bodily on Pentecost Day in AD 70 WERE ALMOST ALL DEAD before the close of the AD 70 siege. 

It was only a REMNANT of those who had been besieged in the city until AD 70 who ended up as captives of the Roman army  (97,000 approximately).  These were all led away to perish in Roman arenas, to serve as slaves in the mines, etc., leaving only 700 to march as prisoners in the Roman triumph.   Most in the city had died of starvation, pestilence, and civil war in those last few months after Titus arrived at Jerusalem at Passover in AD 66.  These would have been the ones with the chance of witnessing Christ's return on Pentecost Day in AD 70. 

Why are you expecting DEAD PEOPLE and PRISONERS to make a record of witnessing Christ's return for you to see today?

Christ told you already in Luke 13:25-30 who would be the ones "mourning" to see His return.  It would be those "tribes of the earth" eye-witnesses from Israel who would be saying to Him, "WE HAVE EATEN AND DRUNK IN THY PRESENCE, AND THOU HAST TAUGHT IN OUR STREETS."  (HINT: there is ONE and ONLY ONE generation of tribes from Israel who ate and drank with the incarnate Christ during His earthly ministry, and had Him personally teach in their streets.  You cannot apply this passage about this particular return of Christ to any other generation than that first-century one.)

When the Lord would respond by telling them to depart from Him as "workers of iniquity", they would begin weeping and gnashing their teeth to see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets sitting down in the kingdom of God, with themselves thrust out of that kingdom, destined to die in Jerusalem during the months after they had seen Christ's return.  This is the "mourning" of the eye-witnesses from the first-century tribes of Israel.  At that point, all the resurrected righteous ones who had come from every point of the compass gathered to meet Christ in that location and were taken to heaven with Him.

On that occasion, "there are LAST which shall be FIRST,  and there are FIRST which shall be LAST." (Luke 13:30).  This meant that those of the "FIRST RESURRECTION" who were raised with Christ in AD 33 (the Matt. 27:52-53 resurrected saints) would wait just until their fellow saints were raised to life to meet the Lord in the air, and THEN they were also caught up together with them, to be forever with the Lord.  This was exactly the order of events as Paul described for the rapture of the living and remaining Matthew 27 saints who FOLLOWED AFTER the "dead in Christ which shall rise FIRST" (I Thess. 4:15-18).

Rella, I'd like to address one of your other points you made about the warning that was given to the believers before the war began, so that they could flee when they saw the city of Jerusalem surrounded by armies and "ABOUT TO BE TAKEN".  This imminent destruction spoken of with armies surrounding Jerusalem was IN AD 66 - NOT in AD 70.  The believers' hurried flight took place just after Cestius Gallus left, who had broken into the city and whose Roman legion was actually preparing to take the temple. 

Josephus tells us that when Cestius Gallus attacked the temple and the upper city, that "He would easily have taken it, had he continued the attack more valiantly, for most of the people favored the Romans and only the seditious opposed them...When Cestius Gallus had almost captured the temple, HE RAISED THE SIEGE FOR NO GOOD REASON, and retreated to Antipatris." 

It was Cestius Gallus' ill-considered retreat that drew the Zealot armies out of the city to give chase to his retreating legion and to defeat them.  This provided a couple precious days for the believers to make their hurried escape from the city with no opponents present to halt their escape, as even Josephus recognized happening at that time.  This retreat was an unreasonable, suicidal action by Cestius Gallus, but God's means of providing mercy for His escaping saints to flee the city in AD 66, just as He forewarned them in Luke 21:20-23.

3 R

I am not expecting dead people to speak up or record things.

I am expecting someone who actually recorded the temple and it's destruction.... such as Josephus to make an accurate accounting.  If he was present then he would have seen it all and if he did not witness it  someone did recorded it all as Jesus said, so we know that His prophesy came true.

Are you telling me that only Peter, James, John, and Andrew, recorded in Mark were to be the only ones to see Him because He was speaking to them.... and as you said they likely were not alive. Peter died about 64 AD, James 62AD, Andrew 60AD

But then we have John. He died c 100 AD age 93 -94.

Leaving Rev out of the mix.... But we can't.  If we assume that he wrote REV in 96, as I contend, then we have the problem that it was prophetic for the future because had Jesus appeared in 70AD,it would have been mentioned. It was not.

If the book of Rev was written before 70AD,then for Pete's sake why did John not
also write an additional book about prophesy fulfilled and Jesus' return? Or why not tell Polycarp, his student and Polycarp spread the word and/or wrote about that himself?

But no...not a word.

Hark. Idea. Maybe no one we know of or have read of saw it, therefore they could not record it???

So who are these people Jesus mentions that are mentioned in 3 gospels?

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory

IF it happened, why all the silence from "them"?

No mention in any writing in or out of the bible. Not in a gnostic writing.... nowhere.

WHY?  If all else Jesus told His deciples came true in 70AD, what about Him???

This bugs me that everything else Jesus said in Mathew, Mark's account and Luke
one can argue came to pass....kind of but

Mathew~ 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mark~ 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Luke ~  27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

They..... will see the Son of Man


Everything else was recorded by an historian but this the "THEY supposedly saw..." was not.... Not a single one recorded it....

Was Jesus mistaken to say that?

No

It simply is because it has not happened yet

QuoteThis imminent destruction spoken of with armies surrounding Jerusalem was IN AD 66 - NOT in AD 70.  The believers' hurried flight took place just after Cestius Gallus left, who had broken into the city and whose Roman legion was actually preparing to take the temple.

OK, not one of these people would have seen Jesus, right?

If John was not at hand, the other 3 are dead... and Polycarp , John's student was off somewhere with the others.... there were "THEY" that Jesus said would see Him.

Who are they?

That is why I cannot agree with all you keep explaining to me.

We are simply going to have to disagree on this point.