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Let us consider this subject, proofs for this doctrine and proofs against this doctrine.

Many teach there is a literal burning hellfire now where the wicked go at the death of their bodies. You would think such people who believe this doctrine would have many scriptures supporting them, and it would be easy to defend this doctrine of endless suffering for the wicked. The majority of professing Christians I believe hold to this doctrine, a doctrine that I was taught when I first came to Christ, and just assumed it was so, only later I had trouble finding any support for such a doctrine.

Actually, it was taught as one of the cardinal truths by which you measure a person's faith.

Let me get right to this study~by giving many infallible poofs that there is not to be a punishment after this Life, never to end, other than to be cast into the lake of fire, which the Holy Spirit tells us IS the SECOND DEATH.

1.  The Scriptures hold forth no such thing, as will be shown; we ought not to presume above that which is written; which many do~ revealed things belong to us.

Quote from: MosesDeuteronomy 29:29~"The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

It will soon be evident the NT and OT are silent about such as place as a literal burning hellfire, now and will be hereafter for eternity according to many folks faith.

2.  The doctrine of a punishment never to end is contrary to the word of God, because it maintains that the wicked shall have eternal life. If man was to live forever, why was the flaming sword set to keep the way of the tree of life? Genesis. 3:24~ Lest he put forth his hand and take of the tree of life, and live forever. No eternal life came by the first Adam: eternal life came by Jesus Christ, who is the tree of life, eternal life promised and given by Jesus Christ: Eternal life by Jesus Christ, Romans 5:21; and, he that eateth of this bread shall live forever, John 6:58. Because I live, ye shall live also, John 14:19. God sent his Son, that we might live through him, 1st John 4:9. Only believers have eternal life: he that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, John 3:36. Whosoever believeth shall not perish, but have everlasting life, John 3:14-15. I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, John 10:28. The wicked abide not forever, 1st John 2:17. If ye live after the flesh ye shall die, Romans 8:13. Him will God destroy,  1st Corinthians 3:17. The preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, 1st Corinthians 1:18; 2nd Thess 2:10. Utterly perish, 2nd Peter 2:12; Luke 13:3. To their own destruction, 2nd Peter 3:16. Abideth in death, Romans 6:21,23; 1st John 3:14. They shall be destroyed forever, Psalm 92:7.

If they perish and not have eternal life, then they cannot live forever. God said, if thou eatest, thou shalt surely die, Genesis 2:17; but the serpent said, ye shall not die, Genesis 3:4. So the serpent, which is the devil, hath taught men to say as the serpent said, Now they have eaten they shall not die, but shall live forever, and never die; which is to say, God is the liar, and that which the devil said is truth. The word saith, him will God destroy, Matthew 21:41; 1st Corinthians 3:17; 6:13. They shall be destroyed, 2nd Peter 2:12. Swift destruction, their end is destruction, 2nd Peter 2:1. Their opinion saith, they shall never be destroyed, die, nor end, which is no destruction. The word saith, The last enemy is death, 1st Corinthians 15:26. Their opinion saith, that is not the last; there is one after it, which is much worse, and will never end. It saith, God's anger is forever, he will never turn from it: contrary to Jeremiah 3:12; Psalm 50:5; 89:5; 78:38. False prophets said...... they shall suffer so long as God is God; if so, then they have eternal life, (though in misery,) whereas the Scripture doth not declare eternal life to be for all men, John 6:45-47. Promised to us eternal life, 1st John 2:17,25. I give unto them eternal life, to as many as thou hast given me, John 17:2-3. In hope of eternal life, Titus 1:2. As many as were ordained to eternal life believed, Acts 13:48. They that have done good unto the resurrection of life, John 5:29. If it be granted that the wicked have not eternal life, as hath been proved, it will follow that they cannot suffer forever, so long as God is God; and therefore all their building of punishment never to end falls: grant the first, and the latter must needs to follow.

If Adam had not sinned, he should have died; as appears from the following considerations~

He had, in his creation, a natural body, 1st Corinthians 15:44: that which is natural is not eternal, ver. 46, he was of the earth, earthly, ver. 47-48, therefore mortal and corruptible, ver. 53-54.

Man in his first being was corporal and visible to be seen; things seen are not eternal. Some believe if Adam had stood, he could not have conveyed to us a body immortal, if God had given Adam an immortal and unchangeable nature, he had created a god, and not a man. Augustine, in his Book of Confessions, saith, because the Lord created man of nothing, therefore he left in man a possibility to return to nothing, if he obeyed not the will of his Maker.

Just getting started~RB

3.  Man in innocency needed food, etc. That which depends on mutable and earthly things, is earthly and mutable: we see it in all other creatures that live upon perishing things do we not~ they all perish; and herein man, by the first Adam, hath no pre-eminence above a beast in this sense. Heaven and earth were created, therefore had a beginning; and although they have a much longer life than man, are to have an end; heaven and earth shall be dissolved, 2nd Peter 3:12.

If Adam had not died, (Romans 5:12) he should have continued in this world, and should not have gone to the world to come; therefore by his fall he lost no happiness nor eternal life in that world; for he could not by that fall lose more than he had, and was to have. Death is according to nature; but to attain immortality is above nature. Adam, being earth, and from the earth, his enjoyment, life, and loss, and punishment, must of necessity be earthly. How cometh he then by his fall to be capable of a punishment never to end, unless by his fall he could purchase eternal life, which none will affirm? Eternal life cannot be by the first man, much less by sin.

I deny not but the wages of sin is death, Romans 6:23. There is a difference to be put between a natural death and a judicial death: the first is from nature, the second is from sin. If the common death that all die, Hebrew 9:27, were the punishment of sin, as most men think, then Christ by freeing his people from the punishment of sin, by bearing death for them, of necessity must free them from dying a natural death: but Christ freeth none from a natural death, yet freeth them from the punishment of sin. Therefore, to die the common death is no part of the punishment of sin; for where sin is satisfied, or pardoned, or forgiven, the punishment is not inflicted; if it be, how is it forgiven? Even men, when they pardon, inflict not the punishment. All confess the sins of some men are pardoned; how then comes it to pass that those whose sins are pardoned, do nevertheless die for sin? He that keepeth my sayings shall not see death, John 8:51, is not to be referred to a natural death, but it speaks of enduring a judicial death, John 3:16. The Scripture declares that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, the just and the unjust, Acts 24:15. The unjust would enter into life, but shall not, John 5:29. Unto whom I swear in my wrath, that they should not enter into my rest, Psalm 95:11; Hebrews 4:5-7. And you yourselves thrust out, Luke 13:28. When they rise to judgment at the last day, they shall be consumed with the earth by fire, that is their end; so that not to enter, to be thrust out, the second death, and to perish, is one thing. If they live forever, and have eternal life, how do they perish? and how is the end of those things death? Romans 6:21, if there be no end? To be carnally minded is death, Romans 8:6; how is this true, if they live forever, and never die?

Sin, being a transgression of the law, is a legal sin, and so it is to have a legal punishment; this, for some sins, is death, Romans 6:23, inflicted by God, as Genesis 38:7,10, and by man. A legal death is not from nature, but from sin, and is a second death. If a man for murder be put to death, in dying, he dieth the first and second death; for in dying, he dieth a natural death, and a judicial death; this latter is a second death, inasmuch as it is not from nature, but from sin.

Men put the stress of the punishment of sin upon the second death; but what that second death is, they cannot agree among themselves. Revelation 20:6, on such the second death hath no power~the second death to many is no more than a total separation from God; if so, it is not a punishment without end; for God is every where, Psalm 139:7-8; and if they are anywhere, how are they absent from God? It is impossible.

If the second death be a death, it is not a life of misery, never to end; that is not a death, unless eternal life be death. They confess eternal life in misery is worse than death; if so, it is not a death, but another thing.

The first death is the destruction of the body, a separation of soul and body; the second death must be like it; the second death is an image of the first, else how is it a death, and a second death? The second Adam being man, was an image of the first; the Scripture saith, the second death is like the first, Luke 6:1. The second is like to it, Matthew 22:39, therefore, as the first death, so the second, is a separation of soul and body, else how is it a death, or a second death?

Reuben, by going into his father's bed, deserved a judicial legal death, but did not die for it, Genesis 49:3-4, 35:22; 1st Chron. 5:1. Let Reuben live and not die, Deuteronomy 33:6. A judicial or second death.

It is many opinions, which teach that the wages of sin is not death; they say it is a life of misery never to end, which is worse and more than death; therefore their opinion is contrary to the word that saith, it is death. Filled with all unrighteousness, haters of God, despiteful, proud, inventors of evil things; they that commit such things are worthy of death, Rom. 1:29-32. These are great sinners; yet the word saith not that they are worthy of more than death as some want us to believe; and therefore why should any say, they are worthy of more than death? And if the end of these things is death, Romans 6:21, therefore there is not anything to come after death, 2 Kings 7:4~EXCEPT JUDGMENT. The soul that sinneth shall die, Ezekiel 18:20; that is, all that sin doth bring forth. God, in giving his law, did express the punishment of the breach of it, saying, In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die, Genesis 2:17. Dying thou shalt die, that is, naturally and judicially. Not touch it lest ye die, Genesis 3:3. To bear iniquity, is to die for it, Leviticus 22:9; Numbers 18:22. That one man die for the people, John 18:14. The body is dead because of sin, Romans 8:10. He that is dead is freed from sin, Romans 6:7. Neither sin nor punishment hath anything to do with a dead man. This iniquity shall not be purged from you till ye die; then it is purged from them; if this iniquity be purged from you till ye die .

After man had sinned, God expounded the punishment of the breach of his law, Genesis 3:14-20. It is evident that the punishment of the old serpent the devil, and of the woman, and of the man, for their sin, are only punishments of this life; there is not the least word of any punishment after this life, much less of a punishment never to end. So that by that which is said, we may judge of what others say, of being everlastingly in a red hot scorching fire, deprived of all possibility of dying, or of being ever consumed in torment eternally. They say, the fire of hell burneth far hotter than ten thousand rivers of brimstone; how do they know this, seeing they never felt it, nor any others who can have told them of it? Three drops of brimstone will make one so full of torment, that he cannot forbear roaring out for pain; yet it must be borne so long as God is God. O eternity, eternity, eternity! If so, they shall have eternal life, which is contrary to the Scriptures, as hath been proved, and is therefore to be rejected. Also they say, that the souls of the wicked go immediately, at death, to hell, to the devils, contrary to Ecclesiastes 3:21; 12:7; Genesis 2:7; Hebrews 12:9; Zechariah 12:1. If the devils are in hell in torment, as they commonly and vainly imagine, hell is in the wicked: the devil's evil spirits are there, and rule there in the children of disobedience, Ephesians 2:2; 1st Peter 5:8; Jude 14; Matthew 8:28; 25:39-41.

Adam in innocency being a natural man, had the law of nature written in his heart; the breach of that natural law caused a temporal curse and punishment, and not any eternal. They that think eternal life is to be had for our works, our well-doing, are prone to think eternal life may be lost for our not well doing: but the way of the gospel places not eternal life and eternal death in misery upon our doing, Romans 41-4. Also, the Scripture speaketh not of an eternal death, and therefore there is no such thing.

Later.....RB

4. Their opinion of a punishment after this life never to end, makes not sin, but Christ, to be the cause of men's thus suffering. This is evident, because if Christ had not come, there had been no resurrection: and if no resurrection, there could be no suffering of any torment after this life; for if there were no resurrection, men would perish in their graves: that would be their end. If Christ be not risen, they which are fallen asleep are perished, 1st Corinthians 15:17-18. That the resurrection came by Jesus Christ is also evident, because Christ saith, I am the resurrection, John 11:25. By man, that is Christ, came the resurrection, 1st Corinthians15:21, therefore it is called the resurrection of Christ, 1st Peter 3:21. His resurrection, Romans 6:5; Philippians 3:10; 1st Peter 1:21. Christ is called the first fruits, because he first rose from the dead; after him others. If Christ had not risen, no man should ever have risen from the dead; therefore it is said, they came out of their graves after his resurrection, Matthew 27:53. And since Christ is the resurrection, and the cause of it, inasmuch as it came by him, sure none will deny, that if there had been no resurrection of the dead, there could be no suffering after death, so long as God is God; therefore it follows, if any shall so suffer, Christ is the cause of it, for without him they could not have lived forever, and therefore could not suffer forever. And is it not very hard and unreasonable, and contrary to the word, to charge Christ to be the cause of their so suffering? Seeing Christ came in love to the world, John 3:16, to save, and not to destroy, Luke 9:56; 19:10, not to make any miserable; he came to save sinners, 1st Timothy 1:15; Luke 4:18. He rose again for our justification. Therefore, if none can so suffer, unless Christ be the cause of it, there is no such punishment for any to endure, never to end.

Later RB

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Quote from: RB2.  The doctrine of a punishment never to end is contrary to the word of God, because it maintains that the wicked shall have eternal life. If man was to live forever, why was the flaming sword set to keep the way of the tree of life? Genesis. 3:24~ Lest he put forth his hand and take of the tree of life, and live forever.

Gen 2:7
Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

The breath of God is eternal since GOD Himself is eternal.

The physical Tree of Life in the physical Garden would maintain PHYSICAL life forever. 

Some other verses to support eternal conscious punishment and that the spirit of man is as eternal as the God who gave it:

Ecclesiastes 12:7
then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Daniel 12:2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Matt 26:46
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

2 Thessalonians 1:8
dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Quote from: Rella on Tue Dec 07, 2021 - 08:40:17
I choose to believe the bible in that there is an eternal hell fire.

The Bible DOES say that Hades' fire is eternal.

I don't think that necessarily means that the fuel of the fire also lasts forever.  It could just mean that there is a never-ending supply of fuel.

Quote from: DaveW on Tue Dec 07, 2021 - 09:18:49
Ecclesiastes 12:7
then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Dave, Dave, Dave...

This is proof-texting at its worst.

The whole point of Ecclesiastes is to de-nounce worldly wisdom as useless.  To this end, Solomon (a wise guy, for sure) lists off his accomplishments and education, and enumerates all sorts of things he has learned according to the wisdom of the world.  And then... he completely poo-poo's them, calling them useless ("vanity" for those of us who speak King-James-ese).

In fact, he literally does so in the verse that immediately follows the one you posted:

Ecc 12:8  Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity.

Jarrod

But W_S, that doesn't mean that Ecclesiastes 12:7 is not biblical truth.

Quote from: 4WD on Tue Dec 07, 2021 - 12:27:47
But W_S, that doesn't mean that Ecclesiastes 12:7 is not biblical truth.

When you pull it out of context and give it a different meaning from what Solomon did, it isn't Biblical truth at all.

Jarrod

RB:

    I agree with a lot of what you're saying in this thread. If I might add to what you have written, the average evangelical Christian takes the position that the ungodly will be consciously exposed to perpetual torture. He understands "destruction," as it relates to the ungodly, to be a conscious, endless, ongoing devastation.

    "Destruction" in the numerous biblical passages carries the same meaning as it does in 2 Peter 3:12, where Peter says the heavens [universe] will experience destruction when the Lord comes again. Does that mean there will be an incessant destruction of our universe throughout eternity—a never-ending, on-going activity? Or does it refer to a final destruction whose results are eternal?

    Jude speaks of those in Sodom and Gomorrah who suffered “the punishment of eternal fire” when their cities and their sexually perverted inhabitants were destroyed [Jude 7]. But was the fire itself eternal—never-ending? Is it still burning? Of course not. The fire was not meant to be endless, only the results. And so it will be with the ungodly. Their punishment will be forever, never-ending, as the results will endure throughout eternity.

    Believers everywhere agree the ungodly will be punished. There's no contention here. So the real question, Do the Scriptures teach the ungodly will be subjected to excruciating torture perpetually, or will they eventually be annihilated? If subjected to conscious, perpetual torture—without end—what will we do with those Scriptures that speak clearly of “destruction”? A good example is 2 Thessalonians 1:9. "They [the ungodly] will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His might."

    Let it be said that Satan is real. Hell is real. Eternal or everlasting punishment is real. But not endless torture. God is a God of mercy and compassion. He is not a Master Torturer. Nothing could be as cruel and brutal as subjecting someone to excruciating torture forever. This is not the God I know. 

    What manner of punishment will be meted out to the ungodly and for how long? I wish I could give an adequate answer to that question.  I'd like to speculate, however. And at this juncture you ought not consider me a credible source of authority. 

    As I do not believe literal fire and brimstone will remain after this physical, palpable world or era has concluded, I'm inclined to believe the “fire and brimstone” the ungodly will suffer will manifest itself when they look upon the glory of that eternal, hallowed and stately “palace” in heaven, with all of its exquisite splendor, and realize what they have foregone because of their rejection of God and His Son Jesus. 

    That, I think, will be their "fire and brimstone," followed by eternal destruction or annihilation. The results of their suffering and annihilation will be forever.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Dec 07, 2021 - 12:51:53
When you pull it out of context and give it a different meaning from what Solomon did, it isn't Biblical truth at all.

So then you think that "the dust returns to the earth" or that "the spirit returns to God" or that it is "God who gave it", i.e. the spirit, is not biblical truth at all?

I think it is quite clear that the statement in verse 7 is not what is being referred to as empty or useless, i.e., vanity.  I do agree with you somewhat in that Ecclesiastes 12:7 does not provide us with any information about what God does with the spirit once it returns to Him.  It does not suggest that there is endless suffering in hell for the condemned.

Quote from: Reformer on Tue Dec 07, 2021 - 14:26:25If I might add to what you have written, the average evangelical Christian takes the position that the ungodly will be consciously exposed to perpetual torture. He understands "destruction," as it relates to the ungodly, to be a conscious, endless, ongoing devastation.

Reformer, your response to what has so far been said is sobering and provking~Thank you.

I'm not going to say much now, because I want to add more to this thread. I have a terrible sinus headache at the moment trusting it will soon subside so I can continue. 

Brother, I know what the average professing Christian believes~ many of them are very sincere and are only clinging to what they have heard all their lifetime, without putting forth a serious effort of studying this out for themselves. What I believe is what the church has believed for many years, which is a surprise to most people. The particular Baptist back in 1500-1600 in England understood this truth very well.

One particularly well-known Catholic method of exploitation in the Middle Ages was as you know very well, were the practice of selling indulgences, a monetary payment of penalty which, supposedly, absolved one of past sins and/or released one from purgatory after death~and thus did the doctrine of a literal present burning hell became a popular doctrine.

I think so far we have proven the penalty of sin, is judicial death~nowhere in the scriptures is endless torment a penalty of sin~it just is not there proven so far by the many scriptures provided above for all to consider.  We shall soon prove all who believe in endless torment as a payment for sin, in truth rejects Christ's payment for our sins. For he certainly did not suffer not more than death, and that for three days and three nights.

Quote from:  Reformer on: Yesterday at 14:26:25 "Destruction" in the numerous biblical passages carries the same meaning as it does in 2 Peter 3:12, where Peter says the heavens [universe] will experience destruction when the Lord comes again. Does that mean there will be an incessant destruction of our universe throughout eternity—a never-ending, on-going activity? Or does it refer to a final destruction whose results are eternal?

Yes, the latter,

Quote from: Reformer on: Yesterday at 14:26:25    Jude speaks of those in Sodom and Gomorrah who suffered “the punishment of eternal fire” when their cities and their sexually perverted inhabitants were destroyed [Jude 7]. But was the fire itself eternal—never-ending? Is it still burning? Of course not. The fire was not meant to be endless, only the results. And so it will be with the ungodly. Their punishment will be forever, never-ending, as the results will endure throughout eternity.

Exactly!

Quote from: Reformer on: Yesterday at 14:26:25Believers everywhere agree the ungodly will be punished. There's no contention here. So the real question, Do the Scriptures teach the ungodly will be subjected to excruciating torture perpetually, or will they eventually be annihilated? If subjected to conscious, perpetual torture—without end—what will we do with those Scriptures that speak clearly of “destruction”? A good example is 2 Thessalonians 1:9. "They [the ungodly] will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His might."

As soon as the Great White Throne Judgment is completed, all of the wicked shall perish WITH this world as we know it which God shall turn into a LAKE OF FIRE and brimstone.~just as I said above:

Quote from: RBAnd you yourselves thrust out, Luke 13:28. When they rise to judgment at the last day, they shall be consumed with the earth by fire, that is their end; so that not to enter, to be thrust out, the second death, and to perish, is one thing.

Ask any person attending church on any given Sunday, or Saturday as far as that goes~"where is the lake of fire"~and I ar say 99% of the people would say, I do not know, yet it is clearly seen in the scriptures, if the scriptures are their final authority~to most, it is not, the man behind the pulpit is their authority.

Quote from: Reformer on: Yesterday at 14:26:25  Let it be said that Satan is real. Hell is real. Eternal or everlasting punishment is real. But not endless torture.

Hell? what is hell according to the scriptures? Now, I know what hellfire is, but hell is not use in the same sense all the way through the scriptures. MOST of the time it is no more than THE GRAVE!  How about

Quote from: THE WISE MANProverbs 23:14~"Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."

What is the salvation from hell in this proverb? This cannot literally mean the lake of fire, or eternal life would depend on child discipline, not the grace of God. But hell is also used metaphorically for trouble, destruction, and death (Psalms 16:10; 18:5; 86:13; 116:3; Isaiah 5:14; 28:15; Jonah 2:2). Here is a dysfunctional and troubled life leading to a premature death, either by accident, crime, revenge, or capital punishment. A salvation indeed!

Quote from: Reformer on: Yesterday at 14:26:25But not endless torture. God is a God of mercy and compassion. He is not a Master Torturer. Nothing could be as cruel and brutal as subjecting someone to excruciating torture forever. This is not the God I know.

It is going BEYOND the penalty of sin~God is just and his ways are perfect, he does not take pleasure in inflicting pain on man ABOVE of that which is written. The devil wants folks to believe he is more merciful than God, far from it!

Let me rest my head a little and God willing I'll be back shortly.

Yes, there is a present hell.

It's called California.

5. The Scriptures declare what Christ came to do, namely, to deliver us from the hand of our enemies, Luke 1:74, to taste death for every man, Hebrews 2:9~See also Luke 4:18. The last enemy is death, 1st Corinthians 15:26. He abolished death, 2nd Timothy 1:10. He hath promised deliverance from death and the grave; I will redeem them from death, Hosea 13:14. He that keepeth my sayings shall not see death, John 8:51-52. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Cor. 15:55~ I will ransom thee from the power of the grave: he saith not from the torments of hell, nor from the punishment never to end. We KNOW the scriptures would mention this IF there was such a place! Again....O death, I will be thy plagues! O grave, I will be thy destruction! Hosea 13:14. So that if there be a punishment after death and the grave, there is no mention of Christ's delivering us from it. Ask yourself WHY he did not mention this, but it should be clear to all who do not have a doctrine to defend. The Scripture saith, he is able to save from death, Hebrew 5:7: this is as much as to say that salvation from death is sufficient, and that there is no further thing to be delivered from beyond death and the grave: if there were, deliverance from these would not be satisfactory, because not sufficient: for if there is to be a punishment after death, who shall deliver us from that? Christ delivereth from death and the grave; and as no further deliverance from anything is mentioned, therefore no such deliverance was necessary, nor is there anything of the kind to be delivered from. So ye may see that all other opinions makes void Christ's suffering, and the saints' comfort; for if a punishment never to end be due to man for sin, Christ must forever suffer that punishment to free us from it, or we must suffer it. The Reformers and those after them confess, that the way and means by which Christ frees us from the punishment of sin, is by his suffering that punishment which we were to suffer~and above that this the Scriptures agree, Galatians 3:13; Isaiah 53:4-7.

So that if Christ our surety hath not suffered the said torments forever, then hath not Christ suffered enough: namely, that which we were to suffer; and so hath not delivered us from that punishment. That Jesus Christ hath not so suffered, is evident and confessed by the Reformer writers. Some of the writers influenced by RCC say, (1.) the reprobates in hell suffer the want of vision or sight of God forever, final rejection. (2.) They shall be perplexed with the horror of a guilty conscience. (3.) Deprived of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. (4.) Instead of virtues, they are defiled with wickedness, indignation, desperation.

Christ suffered none of these.  Far be it from us so to teach otherwise. Christ suffered none of these; therefore he suffered not the torments of hell that many speak of; they do not believe he suffered them forever, for they will not say he is now in that place. If Christ had suffered the pains of the damned, yet unless he suffered them without end, he suffered not the punishment of the damned in hell, which they say we were to suffer.

Also, they say, the damned suffer not those torments without sin and desperation; will any say that Christ so suffered also? They say, in hell they shall see the story of their sins before their eyes, the wrath of God lying upon them for their sins, cruel indignation, horrible outcries, blasphemies, fretting for horrible torments, endless pains, without all hope or comfort. Who dare say, Christ suffered any of these? Some, that are for the torments of hell, confess that it stands not with the dignity and worthiness of Christ's person, nor with the holiness of his nature, nor the dignity of his office, to suffer in that local place eternally. Final rejection, with desperation, with the worm of conscience, agreeth not to the holiness of his person; final rejection Christ suffered not, nor eternal flames, nor the second death; for Christ to suffer these, were to destroy the work of our redemption. Christ could not be subject to destruction, Christ suffered none of these punishments, therefore he suffered not the torments of hell. Christ was heard, in that he feared. Christ did not fear the torments of hell, therefore he did not partake with us, nor deliver us from them. He did not deliver us from anything which he did not suffer: eternal fire in hell he did not suffer, nor are the pains of this life the pains of hell, as they understand it; therefore if there be any such hell or punishment, Christ suffered it not, and therefore we must suffer it.

So not men see whither this their doctrine tends? To overthrow the sufficiency of Christ's suffering, and our comfort, in leaving us to suffer the said torments ourselves; Christ leaving his suffering an example, if we suffer with him, etc., Rom. 8:17. Must we suffer the torments of hell? We believe Christ hath borne the whole punishment of sin; in this, I am satisfied, and desire no more; but how Christ suffered the torments of hell, neither I, nor they, can see. They say, Christ, being God, made an infinite satisfaction, paying at once upon the cross that which we should have been forever in paying. I know Christ is God; but the Godhead did not, and could not suffer. If the Godhead of Christ was to make satisfaction to God, then it seems God satisfieth God; and if Christ as God was to make satisfaction, to what purpose did he become man and die? If ye say he was to make satisfaction both in his Godhead and manhood, doth the Godhead need the help of the manhood to make satisfaction?

It is not proper to say, God was to be satisfied; for he never was unsatisfied. God is perfect, infinite, happy, unchangeable; how is he so, if he were ever unsatisfied? To say God is, or ever was, unsatisfied, is in effect to deny the being of God, to say he is not happy; for satisfaction and content belong to happiness; where there is no satisfaction, there is no content or happiness, because no perfection. God is one; to us there is but one God; God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, 2nd Corinthians 5:19... God is one, not one divine nature in Christ satisfying, and another divine nature in the Father satisfied; but the Father in the Son, God in Christ. The essence of God is one and the same, reconciling the world to himself. God was never unreconciled to the world; it is only man that is at enmity and unreconciled; therefore it is said, he reconciled them to himself. The change is in the creature, not in God, Malachi 3:6. If the manhood of Christ was to make satisfaction to God, how can man, who is finite, satisfy that which is infinite? Unless you will affirm that the Godhead of Christ did suffer, there was not anything to suffer except the manhood of Christ; can the suffering of man satisfy God? Man is finite; so is all he performs or suffers. Sin is a transgression of the law; sin is a disorder of the creature's first and chief being, which stands in righteousness, and it is an eclipse of the glory of man. Sin is a defect and a discovery of the weakness and mutability of the reasonable creature. Sin cannot impeach God; if thou sinnest, what doest thou against him? Or if thy righteousness be multiplied, what doest thou unto him? If thou be righteous, what givest thou unto him, or what receiveth he at thy hand? Thy wickedness may hurt a man as thou art, and thy righteousness profit the Son of man, Job 35:6-8. God hath all satisfaction in and from himself, not from anything without, or besides himself.

God gave not a law to himself to satisfy, but to man; the law belongs only to the human nature, therefore Christ was a man; he took on him the form of a servant, and became obedient to death, the death of the cross, Philippians 2:7-8. A body, Hebrews 10:5. Obedience belongs to the human will; the man Christ was made a curse for us; he was bruised for our iniquities, and with his stripes we are healed, Isaiah 53:5,10. It was blood (death) that washed away our sins, Revelation 1:5. Therefore it was said, by the obedience of one [man] we are made righteous, Romans 5:19. The word saith not, by the obedience of God, nor of God-man, God is satisfied, but by the obedience of one man we are made righteous, the man Christ Jesus, 1st Timothy 2:5.

The worthiness of Christ's person did not abolish the equity of God's law, and exempt him from suffering that which he ought to suffer, Luke 24:26. Some say, the suffering of Christ was infinite; but the word saith not so; the punishment of sin is death; he tasted death, he died for us; but it is no infinite thing to die. They reply, the sin of man is infinite, because committed against an infinite God. To say sin is infinite, in a strict sense, is to attribute too much to sin, and too little to God; to give that to sin which is proper to God. To make sin equal to God, is in effect to deny the being of God, because there can be but one infinite. Also, to say sin is infinite, is to make all sins equal in enormity and magnitude; for there are no degrees in that which is infinite. Sin not being infinite needs not an infinite satisfaction. They say, infinite majesty being offended, infinite punishment was imposed; but this is only their say-so, because it is without the word of God. The punishment of sin is not to be taken from the infiniteness of God, but from the penalty expressed in his law, for the breach of it, which is death, Genesis 2:17.

"CHIEF JUSTICE":

"Yes, there is a present hell. It's called California."

Exactly! And we don't need to quote scripture for that to be true.

Buff

6. The word of God saith, God's fury is like fire; in the fire of his jealousy he shall make a speedy riddance of all them in the day of the Lord's wrath, Zephaniah 1:18; read ALL of chapter one and consider. But to continue in torment forever is no speedy riddance; therefore there is to be no such punishment. The pouring out of the fiery anger of the Lord is a day of utter destruction~ Zephaniah 1: 2,15,18; Romans 2:5; Ezekiel 13:14; 22:22; Isaiah 13:9,13. The day of the Lord is at hand, Isaiah 13:6; Joel 1:15. A punishment never to end in no manner corresponds with a day; therefore there shall be no such punishment of endless torment~it is a lie that most have just accepted which has caused much hatred toward God of punishing a creature who was created after His very own image. It is more than overkill, so much more. that even man and devils are shown to be more merciful than God. That should reveal who is behind such an unmerciful doctrine.

A FEW ADDITIONAL NOTES ABOUT ETERNAL PUNISHMENT

    Here is something else to consider. I would reference to you that hanging a man is eternal punishment. But his hanging is over within a minute or two. The loss of physical life on earth is eternal. Endless punishment for this man, as is understood by many, is keeping him alive and hanging him over and over. Yes, the man has received eternal punishment in that the results of his hanging is forever. He does not have to be kept alive and hung endlessly for it to be eternal punishment.

    I might remind you that the divine record, which was given to us for information and guidance, describes God's character in detail. He is merciful, loving, compassionate, tolerant, humble, meek, and awesome. True, we do not know many things about our God, but we do know a lot about Him.

    Inasmuch as your level of mercy and my level of mercy don't even compare to the depth of God's mercy, we are compelled to ask, Would such a merciful God torment a person endlessly? We're talking about trillions of years, as measured by our time. Could a merciful and compassionate God do this?

    As I've already noted, the burning of Sodom and Gomorrah is described as "eternal fire" [Jude 7], or, we might say, "unquenchable fire," like Mark 9:43-48, yet we know that particular fire is not still burning. When the results were concluded, the fire ceased. The results will never cease being results, but the fire itself ceased long ago. The results of the state of punishment for the ungodly are continual, never-ending—not the punishment itself.

     The bottom line is that "destruction," as mentioned in scripture, very definitely refers to ceaseless existence. One of the definitions of annihilation is to "destroy completely." That seems to be the meaning of biblical "destruction"—to obliterate, to exterminate. But again, could a God as merciful as our God torment anyone endlessly? That is not the biblical definition of "mercy."

    Again, the fire in Jude 7 was not meant to be endless, only the results. And so it will be with the ungodly. Their punishment will be forever, never-ending, as the results will endure throughout eternity.

Quote from: Reformer on Wed Dec 08, 2021 - 12:20:27A FEW ADDITIONAL NOTES ABOUT ETERNAL PUNISHMENT

    Here is something else to consider. I would reference to you that hanging a man is eternal punishment. But his hanging is over within a minute or two. The loss of physical life on earth is eternal. Endless punishment for this man, as is understood by many, is keeping him alive and hanging him over and over. Yes, the man has received eternal punishment in that the results of his hanging is forever. He does not have to be kept alive and hung endlessly for it to be eternal punishment.

    I might remind you that the divine record, which was given to us for information and guidance, describes God's character in detail. He is merciful, loving, compassionate, tolerant, humble, meek, and awesome. True, we do not know many things about our God, but we do know a lot about Him.

    Inasmuch as your level of mercy and my level of mercy don't even compare to the depth of God's mercy, we are compelled to ask, Would such a merciful God torment a person endlessly? We're talking about trillions of years, as measured by our time. Could a merciful and compassionate God do this?

    As I've already noted, the burning of Sodom and Gomorrah is described as "eternal fire" [Jude 7], or, we might say, "unquenchable fire," like Mark 9:43-48, yet we know that particular fire is not still burning. When the results were concluded, the fire ceased. The results will never cease being results, but the fire itself ceased long ago. The results of the state of punishment for the ungodly are continual, never-ending—not the punishment itself.

     The bottom line is that "destruction," as mentioned in scripture, very definitely refers to ceaseless existence. One of the definitions of annihilation is to "destroy completely." That seems to be the meaning of biblical "destruction"—to obliterate, to exterminate. But again, could a God as merciful as our God torment anyone endlessly? That is not the biblical definition of "mercy."

    Again, the fire in Jude 7 was not meant to be endless, only the results. And so it will be with the ungodly. Their punishment will be forever, never-ending, as the results will endure throughout eternity.

Agreed~scriptural stated.~thank you for your added thoughts.

Rella, your seemly dilemma (in reply #3) can easily be overcome if you consider this post by Reformer. 

Good discussion. How should we take Revelation 14:10-11? Sounds like eternal torture, not just burned up for anhilation.

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Quote from: 4WD on Wed Dec 08, 2021 - 03:46:10
So then you think that "the dust returns to the earth" or that "the spirit returns to God" or that it is "God who gave it", i.e. the spirit, is not biblical truth at all?

I'm not saying its exactly wrong, but I am saying that Ecclesiastes does NOT present the contents of the book as "here's inspired truths."  It presents itself as "here's worldly wisdom, and it's not worth a plugged nickel."  Citing single verses out of Ecclesiastes as authoritative is mis-leading 99% of the time.

Quote from: 4WD on Wed Dec 08, 2021 - 03:46:10
I think it is quite clear that the statement in verse 7 is not what is being referred to as empty or useless, i.e., vanity.

The verse invokes death as a reason why the sum of human striving comes to naught.

Quote from: 4WD on Wed Dec 08, 2021 - 03:46:10
I do agree with you somewhat in that Ecclesiastes 12:7 does not provide us with any information about what God does with the spirit once it returns to Him.  It does not suggest that there is endless suffering in hell for the condemned.

Yeah, that.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Wed Dec 08, 2021 - 13:03:37
The verse invokes death as a reason why the sum of human striving comes to naught.

That is certainly one of the messages of Ecclesiastes; but that is not what verse 7 says.  That passages actually begins with verse 1 which says, "Remember your creator when you are young....", and the rest of that passage expands on that thought.

Quote from: Jaime on Wed Dec 08, 2021 - 12:46:00
Good discussion. How should we take Revelation 14:10-11? Sounds like eternal torture, not just burned up for anhilation.

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Quote from: 4WD on Wed Dec 08, 2021 - 13:18:02
That is certainly one of the messages of Ecclesiastes; but that is not what verse 7 says.  That passages actually begins with verse 1 which says, "Remember your creator when you are young....", and the rest of that passage expands on that thought.

I would say that it expands more on the second half of that verse:

Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them;

Verses 2-7 are an expansion of all the bad things coming in the later days, culminating in verse 8, which is the statement about the vanity of human striving, which is the theme of the book.

Jarrod

Quote from: Jaime on Wed Dec 08, 2021 - 12:46:00
Good discussion. How should we take Revelation 14:10-11? Sounds like eternal torture, not just burned up for anhilation.

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

This verse is about those who take the mark of the beast.  It's not about everyone.

I have some issues with the translation there as well, but the point above kind of renders that debate moot, I think.

We plan on addressing scriptures very soon that may seem to give support to the endless suffering of the wicked. Be patient, please.

7. The doctrine of the torments of hell never to end, hath caused, and doth daily cause, much sin:~

A. It causeth fear; fear hath torment, 1st John 4:8. He that feareth is not perfect in love, 1st John 4:18. A servile and a slavish fear is sin.

B. It causeth many evil and hard thoughts of God~as proven above.

C. Fear troubleth the hearts of many of the Lord's people, and maketh them sad with their lies. God complains of this, Ezekiel 13:22. Their lies caused them to err, after which their fathers walked, Amos 2:4. Christ saith, Let not your hearts be troubled, John 14:1. The fear of hellfire doth greatly trouble the hearts of many. It is God's will to comfort the sad, to release them that are bound, Isaiah 40:5,9; 51:1-4. A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver, Proverbs 25:11.

D. Fear distracts and greatly discourages the soul, hinders faith; that which delivers the soul from fear, fits it to serve God without fear, in holiness and righteousness, all the days of our lives, Luke 1:74-75. If I knew the possibility of my loved ones in a literal burning hell, it would be more than I could bear, and if the reader truly believes the scriptures~it would be so with him as well. It would almost cause hard feelings against God if the truth is known and if men are honest.

E. Fear unfits and disables the soul in regard to every good work towards God or man; it unfits for any outward occasion; it is a weight that depresses the soul, and makes it weak; it gives straighten to the heart, but hope comforteth and enlargeth it.

F. The doctrine of hell-torments provokes the soul to envy and unbelief, and hinders subjection to God. If the soul apprehends itself liable to so great and everlasting punishment, it cannot submit to God, nor be quiet. The light of truth causes the soul to sin less, and to be less troubled, to have fewer hard thoughts of God, and less to fret against the Lord.

G. This doctrine causes an exceeding and unreasonable trouble of mind, and melancholy. Such trouble is sin, John 14:1. A merry heart doeth good, Proverbs 17:22. The knowledge of the truth in regard to this subject gives peace to the fearful mind, and causes, as it were, a heaven upon earth.

H. This doctrine hath caused many to murder themselves, taking away their own lives by poison, stabbing, drowning, hanging, strangling, and shooting themselves, casting themselves out of windows, and from high places, to break their necks, and by other kinds of death, that they might not live to increase their sin, and increase their torments in hell. This also has moved a few parents of killing their own children BEFORE they begin to give themselves over to the lust of the flesh. I'm sure most have read such articles.

I. This doctrine provoketh to the greatest sins, as despair; also to the wickedness which the world lieth in, namely, working for life, to perform duties to escape hellfire and obtain heaven, which is to tread underfoot the blood of Christ as an unholy thing, Hebrews 10:29, in seeking to be justified by the law of works, and not alone by the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ, Revelation 1:5; Jeremiah 23:6; Hebrews10:10,14.

J. Freedom from fear causes love; love causes service; the love of Christ constraineth; it tends to the comfort of many, who through weakness of faith give way to Satan's temptations. To fear the torments of hell causes a feeble mind; comfort the feeble minded, 1st Thessalonians 5:14. It is a comfort to many, whose children and friends die, and leave no testimony of their conversion, to be free from this fear; for the fear that they are to suffer so great and endless torment, hath saddened and troubled the heart of many a parent and friend.

K. God hath said, he will not contend forever, nor be always wroth; for the spirit would fail before him, and the souls he has made, Isaiah 57:16. Man is not able to dwell with everlasting burnings, Isaiah 33:14~it is not even reasonable to believe such a doctrine. To be in so great a torment as they speak of, without end, ease, and refreshment, the spirit must fail, (a small thing will make the spirit fail; we see this every day), and, if so, the reason is the same against the being of punishment never to end. Elijah desire for God to take his life because of the suffering from a feeble and powerless woman! How can anyone think Man will suffer endlessly from God~it is not even rational to think of such a thing. But, simple-minded people will believe just about anything other than TRUTH which takes labor to search out.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Wed Dec 08, 2021 - 13:31:11
This verse is about those who take the mark of the beast.  It's not about everyone.

I have some issues with the translation there as well, but the point above kind of renders that debate moot, I think.

All of humanity will be marked by the Mark (Seal) of God OR the Mark (Seal) of the Beast. Will not all the lost have the Seal of the Beast rather the Seal of God? The Seal of God is the Holy Spirit, right? The question is, what is the Seal of the Beast? Denial of the Holy Spirit? Mark 3:28 Truly I tell you, the sons of men will be forgiven all sins and blasphemies, as many as they utter. 29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of eternal sin."

All the lost in that context will be tortured forever it seems from the Revelation passage. How would God differentiate between the run of the mill lost and the ones who took the mark of the beast. if there is a difference?

JAIME:

    As to your #18 Reply: Please consider that the bulk of Revelation is composed of symbolic and figurative language. If you have access to Adam Clarke's Commentary on Revelation, or any other good Commentary, it might be helpful to go there. I may have something to say about the Revelation passages you introduced later.

Buff

Buff, what would you say the symbolic message would be of that passage?

JAIME:

    As I said above, "I may have something to say about the Revelation passages you introduced later."

    I will not go there tonight, and tomorrow I will be out-of-the-house on medical business. Lord willing, I will answer your question when time permits.

Buff

OK, I am not sure what I really believe about this. It is definitely something worthy of discussing. I have always thought eternal torture was over the top, but so is a lot of things in the Bible. Honestly, I think the fear of eternal torture has always motivated me to be a Godly person and avoid hell. I have always scratched my head over the story of Uzzah and his instant death for trying to steady the falling Ark of the Covenant, plus many other puzzling stories. I recall many stories when I read them and thought, "Why the heck would God do THAT?"

8.  It is not agreeable to the God of nature to go contrary to the law of nature, which he hath written in the hearts of mankind. There is implanted in man a universal love to man, especially to their own offspring, whether obedient or disobedient. How strong is the love of parents to their offspring when in misery, and to others also in misery and want! Surely no man doth desire that any man or creature should endure the torments they speak of, one year, much less their own children; how then may I, or can I, think God to be less compassionate, less merciful than cruel man (Jeremiah 50:24; 6:23; Hosea 4:1; Isaiah 49:15,) to his offspring? We are all his offspring, Acts 17:28. Surely God exceeds man in goodness; if ye being evil know how to give good things to your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give good things to them that ask him, Matthew 7:8-11. Thou Lord art good, and doest good, Psalm 119:68; Matthew 5:45. Though they were evil, and did evil, God did good, and gave rain, Acts 14:17. They say the fire, Daniel 3:21, is nothing to hellfire, and that the greatest torment man can devise is scarcely a shadow to that in hellfire; by which they declare God to be more cruel than man. Whom do you think is the father of endless torment upon the wicked? See John 8:44!

Red, except for Rev 14:10-11, where would we have gotten the notion of eternal torture? Satan had nothing to do with that verse.

9. If man had deserved so great punishment, why may not God show so much mercy as not to inflict it, as well as to let his sun shine, and his rain fall, on them that do not deserve it, seeing he could (if he so pleased) hinder it? We see men show more kindness to a rebellious and disobedient child than  he deserveth; may not God do the same? So much as God is greater than man, so much greater is his mercy, love, and goodness, than that which exists in man; yea than that which is, or ever was, in all men. All their love, and mercy, and goodness, came from him; and it is all but as the least drop, compared with that great sea and ocean of mercy and love, which is in him. How little a portion is heard of him? Job 26:14. All nations before him are as nothing, and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity, Isaiah 40:12,15,17,22. O how great is he that hangeth the earth upon nothing! Job 26:7. He can and will do for the worst creature far above that which it is able to ask or think.

10. God's general goodness in the creation of the world extends to all his creatures; and also in his ordinary dispensations, it extends towards the whole universe of mankind, and is for their benefit. He hath provided room enough for all men and creatures, and all good things for all; the profit of the earth is for all, Ecclesiastes  5:9. God hath commanded us to do good unto all; he that hath two coats is to impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat must do so likewise, Luke 3:11. All this manifests God's good will, and the care he exercises over mankind; he that would not have them suffer the torment of misery and want, that taketh care to prevent that little and short misery, will not impose a far greater torment, never to end. It goes against what God expects from us as his children toward all men, and the manner of his dealing with his creation in general. The devil himself is the father of this cruel false doctrine seeking to make God much worse than HE wants others to believe he is. Many have taken the bait~ hook, line, and sinker...... without hesitation or reservation!

Quote from: Jaime on Thu Dec 09, 2021 - 05:10:24
Red, except for Rev 14:10-11, where would we have gotten the notion of eternal torture? Satan had nothing to do with that verse.

Im coming to those scriptures as soon as I'm finished, or maybe sooner.

.
Through me; the way to the eternal city.
Through me; the way to eternal sadness.
Through me; the way to lost people.

Justice moved my supreme maker:
I was shaped by divine power,
By highest wisdom, and by primal love.

Before me, nothing was created
That is not eternal: and eternally I endure.
Abandon all hope, you that enter here.

The Divine Comedy
by Dante Alighieri
Inferno: canto 3, v.1-9

Dante's poetic epic is called a comedy because it has a happy ending as opposed to a tragedy; at least for Dante anyway. The souls he and Virgil pass along the way through the Inferno portion of Dante's odyssey will never, nor anon, have a happy ending; hence the sign above the entrance: "Abandon all hope, you that enter here."

Webster's defines "despair" as: to no longer have any hope or belief that a situation will improve or change. Well; down in the Inferno section of Dante's concept, despair is a way of life. It's likely not much different in the real inferno.

When people first get there, no doubt they start asking around to find out how long they have to stay. It must be very devastating to encounter folk who've been languishing in the fiery region of the netherworld since practically the dawn of Man.
_