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One could ascertain that Sunday Worship is the mark of the Beast since the Beast (the Papacy) changed God's day, the Sabbath simply because of their self annointed "authority". As the 7th Day Adventist assert, Sunday worshippers have taken the "mark of the Beast". Something Rome codefied to identify as IT's day. For an entity that would think to change times and laws, it is something to consider. As to their 10 commandments, they did away with the graven image command and split up the covet command into two. Change times and Law. And as it turned out, literally the whole world has wondered after the Beast. By the way, Acts 20 is the main prooftext and a very poor one for Sunday worship in my opinion, though relied heavily upon by my church tribe

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Were I to set somebody's pants on fire; would their burns be any less or more severe depending on whether I used a flint stone, a match, a cigarette lighter, or a welder's torch?

Just how sensible is it to argue about the nature of sulfur when no matter whether it's a spice or a chemical element, people are going to be terminated in a flaming lake of the stuff and their remains left to float around like apples in a bobbing tub while fire-proof worms use them for nourishment?

• Isa 66:22-24 . . From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me: says the Lord. And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.

• Rev 20:15 . . And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

• Rev 21:8 . . But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
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Quote from: NyawehNyoh on Fri Dec 10, 2021 - 19:02:21
Just how sensible is it to argue about the nature of sulfur when no matter whether it's a spice or a chemical element, people are going to be terminated in a flaming lake of the stuff and their remains left to float around like apples in a bobbing tub while fire-proof worms use them for nourishment?

If it's a substance meant for purification, then the implication is that it's being used for purification; not destruction.

Jarrod

Having already established the scriptural evidence against the immortality of the soul, the reader will understand of course, that such evidence is also against the doctrine of eternal hell. As is the case with most false doctrines, there are a few verses that seem to suggest the existence of such a place, but the overwhelming majority of scriptural evidence is to the contrary. The doctrine of eternal hell is just another lie supporting the original lie of Satan to humanity, that we would not surely die.

It is the writers opinion that the doctrine of eternal hell maligns the character of God more than any other single doctrine. If one combines the false doctrines of eternal hell, and predestination, they have made God out to be more of a tyrant than Satan himself ever was. If these two false doctrines were the truth, then God would have created countless millions of people for no other purpose than to burn them in hell throughout the endless ages of eternity. If this is the God that you worship, then you do not worship God at all.

We have already discussed John 3:16, and the meaning of the word perish in a previous chapter. The following are some more scriptures that point out that the wicked will perish, and therefore, will not be burning in a fire throughout the endless ages of eternity.

Ps 37:20But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Ps 68:1 Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him. 2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.3 But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice.

Ps 73:27  For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.

Ps 112:10 The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.

Isa 41:11 Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee hall perish. 12 Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought.

1 Cor 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

II Th 2:10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Pet 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2 Pet 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

As discussed earlier, there is a great difference between being alive and burning for eternity, and perishing altogether. It is not possible for both of these things to happen to the wicked. The reality of either one, would completely negate the other. The scriptures do clearly point out, that the punishment of the wicked will be by fire. This fire is referred to as eternal fire in the book of Jude. However, it is obvious from the context of this scripture that it is the effects of this fire that are eternal, and not the fire itself.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

In the above verse we are given an example of the effects of eternal fire. Sodom and Gomorrha are no more. They were completely destroyed by eternal fire, and have quite surely perished. If they were still burning today, then some might be able to argue that eternal fire meant  being burned for eternity. Since they no longer exist, it is obvious that the meaning of eternal fire, is the complete annihilation of the thing suffering its effects.

Let's take another look at John 3:16 and a few other verses that point out the love of God for humanity.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I Jn 4: 7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 9 In this was manifested the ove of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

I Jn 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

Matt 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

How could God tell us that he is love, and that we should love our enemies, and do good to them that hate us, when in fact, he intends to torture all his enemies throughout the endless ages of eternity? What better way to destroy God's message of love to humanity, than to tell them that if they don't worship him he will roast them in flames for eternity. Keeping them alive, just so they can feel the pain of being burned? What nonsense, this mentality contradicts the bibles own definition of love. This doctrine comes straight from the Devil for the purpose of destroying God's message of love and mercy to a dying world. Anyone who believes it, cannot understand or know the true character of God. Nor can they understand or know true love, which God is.

Even humanity becomes outraged when confronted with people or organizations that exhibit great cruelty to animals, let alone people. We know this behavior is wrong, and yet Christians all over the world present a God that will exhibit infinite cruelty, and then try to tell people that this is a God of love. What must their conception of love be?

We are God's children, what parent in their right mind, would choose to torture, for as long as possible, their wayward child? Sin is a death producing disease. Even humanity knows to put a sick and suffering animal out of its misery. Do we believe that humanity has more mercy than God himself? What would any people, let alone Christians say to a government that tortured its criminals to death for their crimes? This would not be acceptable, and rightly so. So why do so many Christians believe the thing to be so of God himself? The church of Rome itself, believing this doctrine, tortured and killed millions of people in what we now refer to as the dark ages. Many protestant churches followed in suite when they became the established church of the state, or country. This was no doubt the result of believing this satanic lie. If God is this way, why shouldn't his followers be the same?

Many Christians today are crying out against the death penalty as being too cruel. These same Christians believe in eternal hell. If they believe that God will burn sinners in hell forever, why do they believe that the death penalty is too harsh? Are they more merciful than God?

Ps 136:1 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever. 2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever. 3 O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever. 4 To him who alone doeth great wonders: for his mercy endureth for ever. 5 To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever. 6 To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever. 7 To him that made great lights: for his mercy endureth for ever: 8 The sun to rule by day: for his mercy endureth for ever: 9 The moon and stars to rule by night: for his mercy endureth for ever. 10 To him that smote Egypt in their firstborn: for his mercy endureth for ever: 11 And brought out Israel from among them:for his mercy endureth for ever: 12 With a strong hand, and with a stretched out arm: for his mercy endureth for ever. 13 To him which divided the Red sea into parts: for his mercy endureth for ever: 14 And made Israel to pass through the midst of it: for his mercy endureth for ever: 15 But overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea: for his mercy endureth for ever. 16 To him which led his people through the wilderness: for his mercy endureth for ever. 17 To him which smote great kings: for his mercy endureth for ever: 18 And slew famous kings: for his mercy endureth for ever: 19 Sihon king of the Amorites: for his mercy endureth for ever:20 And Og the king of Bashan: for his mercy endureth for ever: 21 And gave their land for an heritage: for his mercy endureth for ever: 22 Even an heritage unto Israel his servant: for his mercy endureth for ever. 23 Who remembered us in our low estate: for his mercy endureth for ever: 24 And hath redeemed us from our enemies: for his mercy endureth for ever. 25 Who giveth food to all flesh: for his mercy endureth for ever. 26 O give thanks unto the God of heaven: for his mercy endureth for ever.

God's mercy endureth for ever. How can God punish countless millions upon millions throughout the endless ages of eternity, and at the same time have mercy that endures forever? These two things cannot be at the same time. One must be false. Which is it, that God's mercy endures forever, or that the wicked will suffer eternally at the hands of God? I do not worship a vindictive God. My God has done, and is doing everything possible to save a lost world. His love is beyond our comprehension and does not allow for a spirit of eternal vengeance. How can one say that they are love itself, and also be one that will seek and distribute utter vengeance throughout all eternity?

Isa 49:15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee. 16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.

Our Lord and savior Jesus Christ died for each and every human being that has ever, and will ever exist. His love for us is everlasting. The love and mercy of God revealed to us through His Son, and recorded in the scriptures, cannot be applied to a God that would create and sustain a place of eternal torment.

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Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Fri Dec 10, 2021 - 21:45:27If it's a substance meant for purification, then the implication is that it's being used for purification; not destruction.

Only the blood of Christ is adequate for purifying sinners to God's satisfaction.

• Rev 1:5 . . Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood.

• Rev 7:13-14 . . And one of the elders answered, saying unto me: What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The lake of fire and brimstone can therefore be thought of as a leper colony where everybody inadequately purified is kept in permanent quarantine.

• Matt 25:41 . .Then he will say to those on his left: Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.

• Rev 20:10 . . And the Devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The Devil and the cursed appear to constitute what we might call one big happy family; so to speak.
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Quote from: NyawehNyoh on Sat Dec 11, 2021 - 08:43:04
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Only the blood of Christ is adequate for purifying sinners to God's satisfaction.

• Rev 1:5 . . Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood.

• Rev 7:13-14 . . And one of the elders answered, saying unto me: What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The lake of fire and brimstone can therefore be thought of as a leper colony where everybody inadequately purified is kept in permanent quarantine.

• Matt 25:41 . .Then he will say to those on his left: Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.

• Rev 20:10 . . And the Devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The Devil and the cursed appear to constitute what we might call one big happy family; so to speak.
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Good point. The blood of Jesus Christ applied, purifies sinners unto salvation from the lake of fire where the second death occurs. Fire purifies the sinner who does not apply the blood of Jesus by faith, unto the second death and annihilation, which is the only way to purify those who refusing to let go of sin in Christ Jesus our Lord. The purifying process will of necessity destroy them in the process, having refused the only path of deliverance from the same.

Heb 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, 19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: 20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: 21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:) 22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. 25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: 26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. 27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Quote from: Amo on Sat Dec 11, 2021 - 08:21:40

8. HELL

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Having already established the scriptural evidence against the immortality of the soul, the reader will understand of course, that such evidence is also against the doctrine of eternal hell. As is the case with most false doctrines, there are a few verses that seem to suggest the existence of such a place,

Show me, by book and verse, where Jesus himself said hell and eternal punishment were not eternal.

And please explain why if there are a few places that suggest such is fact, can you show anywhere that says that is false?(Keep in mind the "few" mentions among many of baptism and how it is needed to be saved.) As many on here have suggested, in the past... not mentioning the fact ever time a subject is mentuioned does not make the times it is mentioned NOT SO.

but the overwhelming majority of scriptural evidence is to the contrary. The doctrine of eternal hell is just another lie supporting the original lie of Satan to humanity, that we would not surely die.

Would you be so kind as to explain the meaning of Mathew 25: 41 & 46?

41 :Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

46. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

It is the writers opinion that the doctrine of eternal hell maligns the character of God more than any other single doctrine. If one combines the false doctrines of eternal hell, and predestination, they have made God out to be more of a tyrant than Satan himself ever was. If these two false doctrines were the truth, then God would have created countless millions of people for no other purpose than to burn them in hell throughout the endless ages of eternity. If this is the God that you worship, then you do not worship God at all.

The writers opinion is fanciful at best. Just limiting to my one example above that came from Jesus' very own mouth certainly is enough proof for most that "eternal hell" and "eternal punishment " are very real and if they are not... then Jesus lied.

Is that a possibility? Or are you of the opinion that was merely said as part of a parable? Be careful of what you say.

There is a place called Hades which is separated into two places with a great gulf in between. In the Torment section those there are in agony in the flame. When the end comes those in Torment will be cast with the devil into hell which is also a flame.

Quote from: Rella on Sat Dec 11, 2021 - 10:06:09

Eternal punishment is very real. Just what that means, is what is being questioned on this thread, and apparently not by just me.

I throw your own argument back against you -

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Was Jesus lying when He said the above words. Will those who reject His salvation perish, or receive eternal torment? The two cannot happen at the same time, can they? What about all the other verses I shared saying the wicked perish? Are these lies as well? Why is eternal life promised to the saved, if the lost have it as well, only in torment rather than bliss? What is death really, if in fact there is not, nor has there ever been an end for anyone? If this be true, is not Satan's first lie to humanity the truth then, that we shall not die because God said we would? Is not God then the liar, and Satan the father of truth rather than lies? Is death defined by anyone anywhere as either conscious bliss in heaven, or conscious torture in hell? Do you not beleive the following verses -

Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Does sin produce death, or eternal torment? Right from the very beginning God's word declared it produced and would bring forth death, and ends declaring the same.

Gen 3:1  Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.........................
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life. 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. 20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. 21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Rev 22:12  And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

I tell you the truth, God Himself has left room enough for all who desire to do so, to choose error and deception over truth. He has declared that He Himself will choose the delusions of the lost.

Isa 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? 2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. 3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. 4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not. 5 Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed. 6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Yes, God Himself has chosen the delusions of fallen humanity. Those claiming to be His in particular. People may choose to be deceived, but God has chosen the deceptions they will choose.

Eze 33:10 Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live? 11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth. 13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it. 14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right; 15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die. 16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live. 17 Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal. 18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. 19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby. 20 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.

MY FINAL POST ON ETERNAL, NEVER-ENDING PUNISHMENT

    This controversial issue has prompted a host of responses, both positive and negative. A few years ago when I was dialoging this topic with another brother, he responded to my sentiments by referring me to the words of our Lord in Matthew 25:46. The verse reads, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

    My position, of course, is that the ungodly will experience a final, ceaseless existence. He inquired, "Why doesn't the Bible say, 'And the wicked will cease to exist, while the righteous will inherit eternal life?' "

    Well, it actually does, but not in those exact words. It is interesting that “destruction” and “perish” are never applied to the righteous. Their eternity will be endless life and eternal bliss. But not so with the wicked. They will suffer eternal destruction, or, as Jesus puts it in John 3:16, they will perish—that is, cease to exist.

    Such is the meaning of “perish.” The destruction of the ungodly will be eternal in that it will never be reversed or altered. Their eternal punishment will be the absence of life, away from the glory of God and the exquisite paradise He has prepared for the righteous.

    To be a little repetitious just here, the wicked will perish—be extinguished. The results [extinction] will be eternal, never-ending. Paul says the “wages of sin [for the ungodly] is death”—eternal death [Rom. 6:23]. John's Revelation speaks of the ungodly undergoing a “second death” [2:11, 20:6, 20:14, and 21:8]. The term "second death" is not used elsewhere in scripture.

    As noted earlier, the writings in Revelation are highly symbolic, but if we take "second death" at face value, or even symbolically, the “second death” of the ungodly will be eternal punishment—extinction. Let it be repeated again that if the ungodly are kept alive endlessly while being tormented, they have not died, the opposite of what Paul and the Lord say.

    But what about Mark 9:43-44, where "the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched"? Our Lord used the literal “fire” of the garbage dump [Gehenna], just outside of Jerusalem, to bolster His point on the awfulness of being rejected in the end. Although that fire burned most of the time, yet it was only temporary.

    The “worm,” the “fire,” and "not quenched" are mere symbols, and each typifies the horrific fate of the ungodly prior to their being extinguished forever. The eternal extinction of the wicked will not be quenched—stamped out or smothered. It will be endless! Incidentally, a few Versions do not contain verse 44, "where the worm does not die."

    A number of commentators, including the late Adam Clarke, note that Mark 9:44 is the last verse in Isaiah. They all say the statement "where the worm does not die" is a figurative expression, which was common among the Jewish people. Apparently, it was still a figurative utterance in Jesus' time on earth.

    Regardless of the meaning of Mark 9:43-44, one thing seems to be quite convincing—immortality is not appropriated to the ungodly, but to believers only.

Quote from: Amo on Sat Dec 11, 2021 - 12:22:05
Eternal punishment is very real. Just what that means, is what is being questioned on this thread, and apparently not by just me.

I throw your own argument back against you -

Before going further I ask that we handle the single specific point of my reply to you.

YOU said .... "Having already established the scriptural evidence against the immortality of the soul, the reader will understand of course, that such evidence is also against the doctrine of eternal hell."

Then you reply to me now with " Eternal punishment is very real."

Then I asked....

Would you be so kind as to explain the meaning of Mathew 25: 41 & 46?

To me... eternal punishment is what we are told in Mathew 25: 41 & 46. But obviously not to you.

41 :Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

46. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

If Jesus said " Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels and you agree by saying " " Eternal punishment is very real."

Then Jesus says "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire" where you had also said ''that such evidence is also against the doctrine of eternal hell."

You are contradicting yourself.

(side note ~ BTW you may have it settled in your own mind... "Having already established the scriptural evidence against the immortality of the soul"... I disagree.)

Back to topic.

So as I ask again. If Jesus said the following

41 :Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

46. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

How could you possibly have suggested "  Having already established the scriptural evidence against the immortality of the soul, the reader will understand of course, that such evidence is also against the doctrine of eternal hell."

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment cannot mean they will be incinerated into non existence any more then attaining a non existent state would be
any kind of eternal punishment simply because the lack of awareness would be no punishment at all.

Please clarify.

Quote from: NyawehNyoh on Sat Dec 11, 2021 - 08:43:04
Only the blood of Christ is adequate for purifying sinners to God's satisfaction.

I think I gave the wrong impression.  I was not meaning to imply universal salvation.  The idea is not that everybody gets purified and gets to live eternally. 

The idea is that everyone is tried by fire, and that which is perishable perishes in the fire, including the lost.  What is imperishable remains, and is purified by the removal of the other.  That is the thesis of annihilation, which is what I thought we were talking about.

You can find this idea in 1Peter 1, or 1Corinthians 3, probably some others.

Jarrod

Much has been said since I posted last~    I'm not going back addressing every post of two, but will bring my thoughts to a close in a few posts starting sometime today the Lord willing. Anytime we begin a new thread, Especially so on eschatology there will always spring up doctrines that are not scriptural interject into the discussion, and most of the time you just have to overlook them, or the thread will never come to a conclusion of its original purpose. Such replies as 46, 59~I laugh at 66 where 3 Resurrections accused Rella of slapping herself up against the head again!

I thought Reformer post some very sobering and fair posts, concerning the subject of endless torment for the unbelievers.

Like all doctrines there are always sound bites that seemly give each side some support, the duty of a faithful servant is to search out the true sense of God's word so that he can rightly divide the word of truth.

Both sides MUST consider and address their opponent's scriptures they are using to cause them to believe as they do.

I'll come back soon with my next post. In the meantime time~I truly desire someone to answer this one question presented very early into this discussion: Point number five~

5. The Scriptures declare what Christ came to do, namely, to deliver us from the hand of our enemies, Luke 1:74, to taste death for every man, Hebrews 2:9~See also Luke 4:18. The last enemy is death, 1st Corinthians 15:26. He abolished death, 2nd Timothy 1:10. He hath promised deliverance from death and the grave; I will redeem them from death, Hosea 13:14. He that keepeth my sayings shall not see death, John 8:51-52. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Cor. 15:55~ I will ransom thee from the power of the grave: he saith not from the torments of hell, nor from the punishment never to end. We KNOW the scriptures would mention this IF there was such a place! Again....O death, I will be thy plagues! O grave, I will be thy destruction! Hosea 13:14. So that if there be a punishment after death and the grave, there is no mention of Christ's delivering us from it. Ask yourself WHY he did not mention this, but it should be clear to all who do not have a doctrine to defend. The Scripture saith, he is able to save from death, Hebrew 5:7: this is as much as to say that salvation from death is sufficient, and that there is no further thing to be delivered from beyond death and the grave: if there were, deliverance from these would not be satisfactory, because not sufficient: for if there is to be a punishment after death, who shall deliver us from that? Christ delivereth from death and the grave; and as no further deliverance from anything is mentioned, therefore no such deliverance was necessary, nor is there anything of the kind to be delivered from. So ye may see that all other opinions makes void Christ's suffering, and the saints' comfort; for if a punishment never to end be due to man for sin, Christ must forever suffer that punishment to free us from it, or we must suffer it. The Reformers and those after them confess, that the way and means by which Christ frees us from the punishment of sin, is by his suffering that punishment which we were to suffer~and above that this the Scriptures agree, Galatians 3:13; Isaiah 53:4-7. Base on the one main point forces me to give a sense to those few scriptures that seem to teach endless torment of the wicked! BOTH cannot be correct~either Christ suffered for our sins by his DEATH, or he did not pay sufficiently for our sins.

So that if Christ our surety hath not suffered the said torments forever, then hath not Christ suffered enough: namely, that which we were to suffer; and so hath not delivered us from that punishment. Some of the writers influenced by RCC say, (1.) the reprobates in hell suffer the want of vision or sight of God forever, final rejection. (2.) They shall be perplexed with the horror of a guilty conscience. (3.) Deprived of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. (4.) Instead of virtues, they are defiled with wickedness, indignation, desperation.

Christ suffered none of these.  Far be it from us so to teach otherwise. Christ suffered none of these; therefore he suffered not the torments of hell that many speak of; they do not believe he suffered them forever, for they will not say he is now in that place. If Christ had suffered the pains of the damned, yet unless he suffered them without end, he suffered not the punishment of the damned in hell, which they say we were to suffer.

Also, they say, the damned suffer not those torments without sin and desperation; will any say that Christ so suffered also? They say, in hell they shall see the story of their sins before their eyes, the wrath of God lying upon them for their sins, cruel indignation, horrible outcries, blasphemies, fretting for horrible torments, endless pains, without all hope or comfort. Who dare say, Christ suffered any of these? Some, that are for the torments of hell, confess that it stands not with the dignity and worthiness of Christ's person, nor with the holiness of his nature, nor the dignity of his office, to suffer in that local place eternally. Final rejection, with desperation, with the worm of conscience, agreeth not to the holiness of his person; final rejection Christ suffered not, nor eternal flames, nor the second death; for Christ to suffer these, were to destroy the work of our redemption. Christ could not be subject to destruction, Christ suffered none of these punishments, therefore he suffered not the torments of hell. Christ was heard, in that he feared. Christ did not fear the torments of hell, therefore he did not partake with us, nor deliver us from them. He did not deliver us from anything which he did not suffer: eternal fire in hell he did not suffer, nor are the pains of this life the pains of hell, as they understand it; therefore if there be any such hell or punishment, Christ suffered it not, and therefore we must suffer it.

So not men see whither this their doctrine tends? To overthrow the sufficiency of Christ's suffering, and our comfort, in leaving us to suffer the said torments ourselves; Christ leaving his suffering an example, if we suffer with him, etc., Rom. 8:17. Must we suffer the torments of hell? We believe Christ hath borne the whole punishment of sin; in this, I am satisfied, and desire no more; but how Christ suffered the torments of hell, neither I, nor they, can see. They say, Christ, being God, made an infinite satisfaction, paying at once upon the cross that which we should have been forever in paying. I know Christ is God; but the Godhead did not, and could not suffer. If the Godhead of Christ was to make satisfaction to God, then it seems God satisfieth God; and if Christ as God was to make satisfaction, to what purpose did he become man and die? If ye say he was to make satisfaction both in his Godhead and manhood, doth the Godhead need the help of the manhood to make satisfaction?

It is not proper to say, God was to be satisfied; for he never was unsatisfied. God is perfect, infinite, happy, unchangeable; how is he so, if he were ever unsatisfied? To say God is, or ever was, unsatisfied, is in effect to deny the being of God, to say he is not happy; for satisfaction and content belong to happiness; where there is no satisfaction, there is no content or happiness, because no perfection. God is one; to us there is but one God; God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, 2nd Corinthians 5:19... God is one, not one divine nature in Christ satisfying, and another divine nature in the Father satisfied; but the Father in the Son, God in Christ. The essence of God is one and the same, reconciling the world to himself. God was never unreconciled to the world; it is only man that is at enmity and unreconciled; therefore it is said, he reconciled them to himself. The change is in the creature, not in God, Malachi 3:6. If the manhood of Christ was to make satisfaction to God, how can man, who is finite, satisfy that which is infinite? Unless you will affirm that the Godhead of Christ did suffer, there was not anything to suffer except the manhood of Christ; can the suffering of man satisfy God? Man is finite; so is all he performs or suffers. Sin is a transgression of the law; sin is a disorder of the creature's first and chief being, which stands in righteousness, and it is an eclipse of the glory of man. Sin is a defect and a discovery of the weakness and mutability of the reasonable creature. Sin cannot impeach God; if thou sinnest, what doest thou against him? Or if thy righteousness be multiplied, what doest thou unto him? If thou be righteous, what givest thou unto him, or what receiveth he at thy hand? Thy wickedness may hurt a man as thou art, and thy righteousness profit the Son of man, Job 35:6-8. God hath all satisfaction in and from himself, not from anything without, or besides himself.

God gave not a law to himself to satisfy, but to man; the law belongs only to the human nature, therefore Christ was a man; he took on him the form of a servant, and became obedient to death, the death of the cross, Philippians 2:7-8. A body, Hebrews 10:5. Obedience belongs to the human will; the man Christ was made a curse for us; he was bruised for our iniquities, and with his stripes we are healed, Isaiah 53:5,10. It was blood (death) that washed away our sins, Revelation 1:5. Therefore it was said, by the obedience of one [man] we are made righteous, Romans 5:19. The word saith not, by the obedience of God, nor of God-man, God is satisfied, but by the obedience of one man we are made righteous, the man Christ Jesus, 1st Timothy 2:5.

The worthiness of Christ's person did not abolish the equity of God's law, and exempt him from suffering that which he ought to suffer, Luke 24:26. Some say, the suffering of Christ was infinite; but the word saith not so; the punishment of sin is death; he tasted death, he died for us; but it is no infinite thing to die. They reply, the sin of man is infinite, because committed against an infinite God. To say sin is infinite, in a strict sense, is to attribute too much to sin, and too little to God; to give that to sin which is proper to God. To make sin equal to God, is in effect to deny the being of God, because there can be but one infinite. Also, to say sin is infinite, is to make all sins equal in enormity and magnitude; for there are no degrees in that which is infinite. Sin not being infinite needs not an infinite satisfaction. They say, infinite majesty being offended, infinite punishment was imposed; but this is only their say-so, because it is without the word of God. The punishment of sin is not to be taken from the infiniteness of God, but from the penalty expressed in his law, for the breach of it, which is death, Genesis 2:17.

Later....RB

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sat Dec 11, 2021 - 22:45:52
I think I gave the wrong impression.  I was not meaning to imply universal salvation.  The idea is not that everybody gets purified and gets to live eternally. 

The idea is that everyone is tried by fire, and that which is perishable perishes in the fire, including the lost.  What is imperishable remains, and is purified by the removal of the other.  That is the thesis of annihilation, which is what I thought we were talking about.

You can find this idea in 1Peter 1, or 1Corinthians 3, probably some others.

Jarrod

Perhaps you can answer this for me.

"that which is perishable perishes in the fire, including the lost."

I had asked about... Mathew 25:


41 :Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

46. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

What did Jesus mean when He said this???

To me ... I take His words as truth. ... And these shall go away into everlasting punishment.

To me... this reads they will have everlasting punishment under the following definition....

Eternal seems to emphasize no start or end, while everlasting emphasizes the lack of ending. Also, in my mind, "eternal" has a sense of stillness and lack of change. While "everlasting" has a more dynamic and vibrant feel.

Webster: Definition of everlasting
1: lasting or enduring through all time : ETERNAL

To me, as I read you here you seem to be saying that there will be a fiery trial for all.... but " that which is perishable perishes in the fire".... "That is the thesis of annihilation". but the FACT  is this is not everlasting punishment at all.

I believe Mathew 1:23

KJV ~ Matthew 1:23King James Version (KJV) 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

NASB 95 ~  23 "aBehold, the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which translated means, "God with us."

Quote from: Rella on Sat Dec 11, 2021 - 18:19:09

Before going further I ask that we handle the single specific point of my reply to you.

YOU said .... "Having already established the scriptural evidence against the immortality of the soul, the reader will understand of course, that such evidence is also against the doctrine of eternal hell."

Then you reply to me now with " Eternal punishment is very real."

Then I asked....

Would you be so kind as to explain the meaning of Mathew 25: 41 & 46?

To me... eternal punishment is what we are told in Mathew 25: 41 & 46. But obviously not to you.

41 :Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

46. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

If Jesus said " Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels and you agree by saying " " Eternal punishment is very real."

Then Jesus says "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire" where you had also said ''that such evidence is also against the doctrine of eternal hell."

You are contradicting yourself.

(side note ~ BTW you may have it settled in your own mind... "Having already established the scriptural evidence against the immortality of the soul"... I disagree.)

Back to topic.

So as I ask again. If Jesus said the following

41 :Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

46. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

How could you possibly have suggested "  Having already established the scriptural evidence against the immortality of the soul, the reader will understand of course, that such evidence is also against the doctrine of eternal hell."

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment cannot mean they will be incinerated into non existence any more then attaining a non existent state would be
any kind of eternal punishment simply because the lack of awareness would be no punishment at all.

Please clarify.

The answer to your question is really quite simple.

Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The wages of sin is death. Not the sleep of the first death, from which all will awaken at one time or another, but real live eternal non existence. The final end of eternal punishment is death, which is the wage of sin.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Only one of the resurrections is unto life, the other is unto damnation. This because the saved are delivered from the wages of sin, which is death, the second and final death. Which is the obvious end of eternal fire, as the scriptures themselves gives us example.

Jud 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Why will you ignore the one literal example provided by scripture, of the effects of eternal fire? Sodom and Gomorrha are set forth in scripture as an example of the effects of "suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Where are they today? They are no more. They are naught, nothing but perhaps ash.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhTjEbNgTQM

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

Eze 28:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

The above prophecy is obviously a dual prophecy concerning the king of Tyre and even more specifically Satan himself, who was kicked out of the mountain or kingdom of God in heaven, and will meet his end with fallen unsaved humanity here on earth, which will be the lake of fire cleansed and purified by the same. Nevertheless, even for those who will not accept it as such, these scriptures do depict a complete end for the king of Tyre. As it also predicts for all of the unsaved in the following verses as well.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts. 4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. 5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

There is plenty good reason for any to conclude from scriptural testimony itself, that death and non existence is the final end of the wicked. I understand there is room for disagreement as well concerning a few verses here and there which seem to suggest otherwise. Therefore I can understand why some may choose to beleive such. As it seems most obvious, that they might also easily see why I and many others do not agree. I think you have passed up perhaps the very best verse supporting your views -

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The above is I think the very best verse supporting the view of eternal torment. It caused quite a bit of concern for me many years ago when I studied this issue out thoroughly, in order to understand the seeming contradictory testimony of the scriptures regarding this topic. As already stated, I had found an overwhelming amount of scripture suggesting a complete end to the wicked, and death as the final result of sin. The above verses though, created a problem I had to resolve. The key was in examining the words interpreted as for ever in the english, in the language of their original use.

The following definitions are from the Greek-English Lexicon.

ETERNAL-aionios-- lasting for an age. ( Age- as a period of individual existence. 1. That part of
the duration of a being or a thing which is between its beginning and any given time. ), perpetual,
eternal, holding an office or title for life,perpetual.

I can no longer read the last word of three of the lines of the next definition, so I guess I will just have
to leave them out.

EVER, as in forever-aion--period of existence, I. lifetime, life II. long space of time, an age,
perpetual, all ones life long, for ever, eternity, 2. space of time clearly defined and marked out,
epoch, this present world.

Neither of the words or statements eternal, or for ever, necessarily always denotes eternity, though they certainly can. Context and prior knowledge concerning the subject at hand, matter. Even today we sometimes use the term forever, in a limited sense. One might say, I am in your debt forever, or other such statements which can only mean of course, as long as the one saying it lives. That would be until the duration of my life or such. Either this is what the scriptures in question really mean, or the scriptures contradict themselves. I have chosen the former, in that the original language includes such a definition for the words used, and the scriptures say so very much about death being the result of sin, the wicked perishing, becoming ashes, never existing again, and so on and so forth. All must decide for themselves of course.

   

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• Luke 16:26 . . Between us and you a great chasm has been fixed

Luke portrays only a small portion of the geography where Abraham and the rich man conversed; suggesting that the two locations of the chasm where the men stood are peninsulas or narrow cornices.

But I rather suspect that the rims of the chasm are straight and parallel like the banks of a canal; plus extending sufficient distance in either direction to accommodate hundreds, maybe even thousands, of friends and relatives seeking to connect with their loved ones and BFFs over on the other side.
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The above was excellent, Amo.  Only a couple points where we differ.  I especially appreciated where you mention the word study concerning the terms for "eternal" and "forever", etc.  Depending on the context, (as in describing God's attributes) these terms can have the meaning of perpetuity throughout eternity.  But equally possible is the definition of only an age-enduring or a lifetime duration of time, after which something comes to an end. 

For Rella, there is a distinct difference between "everlasting punishment" found in Matthew 25:46, and "everlasting punishing", which is not found there. 

The word "punishment" in Matthew 25:45 puts the emphasis on the sentence handed down; it is a fixed, unalterable sentence of judgment, never to be changed or revoked for any reason. 
The word "punishing" would put the emphasis on the subject who is receiving that sentence of punishment.  In that sense, it would indicate perpetual suffering for the wicked.   But scripture doesn't use the word "punishing" as an ongoing, tormenting experience for all eternity when it comes to the wicked.  Instead, it uses words like "consumed", "destroyed" "melt away", "cast away" "they shall NOT rise", "death", etc., for the fate of the wicked.  They are obliterated from existence finally, so that God's universe can be completely purged of their corrupt presence.

When we read of verses which speak of "everlasting fire", this in in reference to GOD'S eternal, constant stream of consuming fire coming from His presence, as we are shown in Daniel 7:9-10.  Satan as the former "anointed cherub" in Ezekiel 28:14 once walked up and down in heaven among the "stones of fire" in the mountain of God, unaffected by the proximinity of God's consuming fire of utter holiness.  But we know that a fallen Satan was destined to be utterly consumed on the earth by God bringing fire out of that creature, turning him into ashes in Ezekiel 28:18-19.

This "eternal fire" coming from God's presence as a consuming fire is referred to back in Isaiah 33:14-17. Through the prophet Isaiah, God asked "Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire?  Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?"   This "dwelling with everlasting burnings" was going to be the eventual reward of the righteous; destined for "He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil; he shall dwell on high:   This righteous person who would dwell on high in heaven with the Lord and with the "everlasting burnings" of God's presence of consuming fire is given the promise that "Thine eyes shall see the King in His beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off."  That's heaven, the true promised land for believers. 

That "everlasting burnings" where the righteous are to dwell on high in that "far off land" is not Hell (Hades).  It is nothing more and nothing less than the presence of God's utter glorious holiness, upon which no man can look until they have been perfected completely - body, soul, and spirit - in the resurrected state. 

Quote from: Rella on Sun Dec 12, 2021 - 07:17:01
Perhaps you can answer this for me.

"that which is perishable perishes in the fire, including the lost."

I had asked about... Mathew 25:

41 :Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

46. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

What did Jesus mean when He said this???

To me ... I take His words as truth. ... And these shall go away into everlasting punishment.

To me... this reads they will have everlasting punishment under the following definition....

Eternal seems to emphasize no start or end, while everlasting emphasizes the lack of ending. Also, in my mind, "eternal" has a sense of stillness and lack of change. While "everlasting" has a more dynamic and vibrant feel.

Webster: Definition of everlasting
1: lasting or enduring through all time : ETERNAL

To me, as I read you here you seem to be saying that there will be a fiery trial for all.... but " that which is perishable perishes in the fire".... "That is the thesis of annihilation". but the FACT  is this is not everlasting punishment at all.

I'm about looking up words in the original language, moreso than taking the English at face value.

You ask 'what is meant by everlasting punishment?'  I look at the word translated punishment and see that this word is used in regards to the pruning and training of vines.  This immediately puts me in mind of Romans 11 where God is said to have broken off the natural branches which did not produce good fruit.  This speaks of those Israelites who did not believe being removed from the covenant connection to Jesus, who is the root of the plant.  I find that Matthew 24-25 is about the same topic - God's coming judgment on Israel.

The contrast in the verse is simple.  The righteous gain eternal life; the wicked get eternal death.  They are simply pruned.  The opposite of eternal life is not unending burning, but cessation of existence.

Also, everlasting and eternal... in the original language they're the same word. 

Jarrod

Quote from: Amo on Sun Dec 12, 2021 - 09:32:35
The answer to your question is really quite simple.

[edited for the sake of brevity]

Hey Amo,

I read your whole post.  Really!

First, kudos for giving Ezekiel 37 its due with both a literal AND figurative explanation.  So often people want to discard one or the other.

Second, you can usually tell in the New Testament when aionios actually denotes eternity because it is phrased in Greek as aionas ton aionon - literally "ages of ages."

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sun Dec 12, 2021 - 13:47:28
I'm about looking up words in the original language, moreso than taking the English at face value.

You ask 'what is meant by everlasting punishment?'  I look at the word translated punishment and see that this word is used in regards to the pruning and training of vines.  This immediately puts me in mind of Romans 11 where God is said to have broken off the natural branches which did not produce good fruit.  This speaks of those Israelites who did not believe being removed from the covenant connection to Jesus, who is the root of the plant.  I find that Matthew 24-25 is about the same topic - God's coming judgment on Israel.

The contrast in the verse is simple.  The righteous gain eternal life; the wicked get eternal death.  They are simply pruned.  The opposite of eternal life is not unending burning, but cessation of existence.

Also, everlasting and eternal... in the original language they're the same word. 

Jarrod

Well done.

At least part of the reply was kept. 

I want to add to this as soon as I feel better than I do. RB

Jarrod:

    "The contrast in the verse is simple. The righteous gain eternal life; the wicked get eternal death. They are simply pruned. The opposite of eternal life is not unending burning, but cessation of existence."

Right on, brother!

Buff

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In several incidents, Jesus is recorded speaking of the afterlife by means of the Greek word háidēs (a.k.a. Hades) which was doubtless borrowed from Hellenistic influences prevalent in that day.

Hades was believed to be a conscious afterlife where everybody went when they died regardless of age, race, gender, or religious preference; which of course implies that not only was the rich man of Luke 16:19-31 in Hades but so were Abraham and Lazarus; even Jesus did some time there. (Matt 12:40 & Acts 2:25-31)

Hades is sometimes thought to speak of people's graves, but the correct Greek word for grave in the New Testament isn't Hades, it's actually mnemeion (mnay-mi' on), for example:

• Matt 27:52-53 . . And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

• Matt 27:59-60 . . And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulcher, and departed.

• John 11:18 . . Then when Jesus came, he found that he had lain in the grave four days already.

• John 11:38 . . Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it.

• John 12:17 . . The people therefore that was with him when he called Lazarus out of his grave, and raised him from the dead, bare record.

Those are only a smattering of examples from the New Testament where grave is properly translated from mnemeion. Bible committees that render Hades as grave do so arbitrarily, i.e. by interpretation rather than by translation. Caveat Lector.
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Quote from: NyawehNyoh on Wed Dec 15, 2021 - 19:42:02
Hades is sometimes thought to speak of people's graves, but the correct Greek word for grave in the New Testament isn't Hades, it's actually mnemeion (mnay-mi' on)

μνημεῖον (menmeion) is properly translated as memorial.  While it usually is a grave, it doesn't have to be.  Any physical object whose purpose is as a reminder qualifies.  The word has to do with memory.

ᾅδης (Hades) is the name of the Greek god, and by extension the underworld that he is said to rule.  It's not so much an afterlife as an in-between-lives, as the Greeks believed in transmigration (re-incarnation).  However, it's also the word used to translate Hebrew Sheol, both in the LXX and the NT.  Sheol often does mean GRAVE.

ταρταρώσας (Tartarus) is the word that actually means hell - a place of eternal torment in which the titans are imprisoned.

Jarrod

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At some point in his nautical adventure Jonah went to a place called sheol (Jonah 2:2) which he sited at the roots of the mountains. (Jonah 2:6)

Well; the roots of the mountains aren't located in the tummies of fish, no; they're located down deep in the Earth. So, the only way that Jonah could possibly be at the roots of the mountains while in the belly of a fish at the same time was for the man and his body to part company and go their separate ways.

And then there's Jesus . . .

•  Matt 12:40 . . As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Now when you think about it; Jesus' corpse was never in the heart of the Earth. It wasn't even in the Earth's soil. His corpse was laid to rest on the surface of the Earth in a rock-hewn tomb.

So the only way that Jesus could possibly be in a tomb on the surface of the Earth while in the heart of the Earth at the same time; was for the man and his body to part company and go their separate ways.

Just before being cast ashore, Jonah prayed thus:

•  Jonah 2:6 . . You brought my life up from the pit, O Lord my God.

The Hebrew word for "pit" in that verse speaks of putrefaction.

The very same Hebrew word is located in Ps 16:8-10 --which Acts 2:25-31 verifies is speaking of putrefaction; viz: Jonah 2:6 tells of the prophet's flesh just as Ps 16:8-10 and Acts 2:25-31 tell of Christ's flesh. In other words: Jonah 2:6 tells of Jonah's resurrection; which is precisely the sign that Jesus intended.

So then, just as Jonah's soul was not left at the bottoms of the mountains, Christ's soul was not left in the heart of the earth. And just as Jonah's body was not left to decompose in the fish, neither was Christ's body left to decompose in the tomb. And just as Jonah came back from his grave within three days and nights, so Jesus came back from his grave within three days and nights.

If none of this were so, then Jonah's experience would be a pretty useless parallel to Christ's.
_

CLARIFYING HADES

    Man was made in God's image. He [God] is not material or tangible but rather spirit—that is, non-physical [John 4:24]. The deduction follows that our spirit—not breath—was made in God's image. We know our Creator is more than breath—yet, He has a form. "You have never heard His voice nor seen His form" [John 5:37].  Consequently, it is safe to say our Father has a "spirit form."

    Of interest is that when Jesus biologically died on the cross, He did not immediately ascend to the Father or to heaven, even though He cried out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit" [Luke 23:46 & Psalms 31:5].

    That He placed His spirit in His Father's charge is obvious, for His spirit, the real Jesus, promptly went into Hades, the unseen abode of departed spirits, when He breathed His last. He did not ascend to the Father until after His resurrection. When Jesus revealed Himself to Mary Magdalene after His resurrection, she apparently greeted Him with a hug, but Jesus told her, "Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father, but go to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God' " [John 20:17].   

    Peter affirms that Jesus was not abandoned to Hades, the unseen abode of departed spirits, as per the Greek, but instead was reunited with his physical body, and the two of them, spirit and body, were resurrected the third day. "Seeing what was ahead, he [David] spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did His body see decay" [Acts 2:29-32].

    As noted previously, Peter alludes to two parts of Jesus. His spirit, the real Jesus, went into Hades while His physical body remained in the tomb. But where in Hades? Is there, or was there, a Paradise side of Hades? The question is excessively controversial.

    It is proper to claim that Paradise and Heaven are sometimes used synonymously. "Paradise" is found only three times in the scriptures.  Paul was "caught up to Paradise" [2 Cor. 12:4]. He called it the "third heaven," which, in Jewish culture at the time, was heaven itself. John writes about the "tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God" [Rev. 2:7]. He no doubt refers to heaven itself.

    Some take the position the "captive saints" in Hades ascended with Jesus when He took His leave of planet Earth and went back to His Father. "When He ascended on high, He led a host of captives, and He gave gifts to men" [Eph. 4:7-8].

    I won't dispute the validity of this possibility, but there's a thorn that bothers me.  If these saints are already in heaven, and if we go directly to heaven when we die, why a resurrection when Jesus returns? After all, we're already in heaven. Why would He bring us back to earth to reunite with or reclaim our glorified bodies? [See Phil. 3:20.]

    Many say it would it be more consistent to believe our spirit goes to an intermediate state called "Paradise," the same place Jesus and the criminal went, and that our spirit, the real person, will remain there until the resurrection. Well, wherever we go, it will surely be a Garden of Delight. And none of us will complain!

Buff

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If there is one good thing that can be said about the netherworld: it's the great equalizer. Political bullies like Kim Jong-Un, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Benito Mussolini, Xi Jinping, Fidel Castro, Muammar Gaddafi, and Saddam Hussein, are powerless down below; they're just another nondescript skull in the gene pool.

• Isa 14:9-10 . . Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come. It arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth. It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones. They will all respond and say to you: Even you have been made weak as we. You have become like us.

» Jesus once told a parable that advises folk it's wise to exercise kindness and generosity on this side of life because people on the other side will doubtless remember how you treated them. The thing is: folks should expect to be victims of a certain amount of cruelty on the wrong side of the netherworld because down there what's the point in being civil? So it's wise to build up a following of folk up here who owe you a favor so that when you arrive down there, you'll have some friends instead of only foes looking to get even.
_

Quote from: Reformer on Thu Dec 16, 2021 - 20:33:37
CLARIFYING HADES

    Man was made in God's image. He [God] is not material or tangible but rather spirit—that is, non-physical [John 4:24]. The deduction follows that our spirit—not breath—was made in God's image. We know our Creator is more than breath—yet, He has a form. "You have never heard His voice nor seen His form" [John 5:37].  Consequently, it is safe to say our Father has a "spirit form."

By your understanding, but not mine. This MAY be only partially correct.

Exodus 33:22, 23

So it shall be, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by.

Indicating that God is more then a physical form, yet He has a hand.

Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen."

So God has a physical back that Moses was permitted to see.

If it was only spiritual you can bet your bottom dollar it would have been told by Moses.

Rella:

    Although God has a spirit form—that is, non-physical, yet He has appeared to mankind in many forms. Remember the Transfiguration? Jesus, Moses, and Elijah supernaturally appeared to the Twelve, although Moses and Elijah had been physically dead for centuries.

    Too, God has appeared to mankind in angelic form, which appeared to the human eye as physical, such as the occasion when the angel Gabriel visited Mary. God appeared to Abraham in the form of two angels, which appeared to have human form.

    But to clarify even more, the apostle John writes, "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" [John 4:24].

Buff

We really have no experiential basis for knowing and understanding spirits or the spirit realm.  Even the concept of a place "where departed souls of the wicked are sent" is couched in terms of the physical.  A "place" denotes the physical.  Even when we think about heaven, we are constrained to think about it in physical terms.  That is all we really know.  Personally, I do not believe that there is anything physical about the spiritual realm at all. My only conception of the spiritual is by faith in God's word.

4WD:

Very good and well expressed, my brother.

Kindly,

Buff

I believe an eternal PHYSICAL description of our Lord Yeshua/Jesus is in the opening verses of Revelation:

Rev 1:12
Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands; 13 and in the middle of the lampstands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His chest with a golden sash. 14 His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire. 15 His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters. 16 In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength.

And we know that:

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

So He is the same as this image from eternity past to eternity future (from our time based perspective).

Quote from: 4WD on Sat Dec 18, 2021 - 05:35:04
We really have no experiential basis for knowing and understanding spirits or the spirit realm.  Even the concept of a place "where departed souls of the wicked are sent" is couched in terms of the physical.  A "place" denotes the physical.  Even when we think about heaven, we are constrained to think about it in physical terms.  That is all we really know.  Personally, I do not believe that there is anything physical about the spiritual realm at all. My only conception of the spiritual is by faith in God's word.

That's because there is no "spirit realm."  There are heavens, but they are physical, corporeal.  There is an underworld, but again it is treated as a physical place.

To say that something is spiritual just means that it acts in the world through a mechanism which is unseen, usually because it has to do with thoughts and motives.

Jarrod

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Mon Dec 20, 2021 - 21:15:23
That's because there is no "spirit realm."  There are heavens, but they are physical, corporeal.  There is an underworld, but again it is treated as a physical place.

Seriously?? It is hard for me to believe you think that.  That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Is this universe infinite? I don't think so.  Is it imbedded within another physical universe or perhaps it is one of the multiverses some scientists are promoting?  Or perhaps heaven is actually one of those multiverses.  What do you think Jesus meant when He spoke about our Father in heaven (Matt 5:16)?  Do you think that heaven is physical, corporeal?

Quote from: Wycliffes_ShillelaghTo say that something is spiritual just means that it acts in the world through a mechanism which is unseen, usually because it has to do with thoughts and motives.

It can mean that.  I think that is what is partially true for such expressions as spiritual worship (Rom 12:1), spiritual songs (Col 3:16), spiritual sacrifices (1Pet 2:5), etc., but still it is more than that.  But just as often spiritual means supernatural such as imparted spiritual gifts (Rom 1:11), supernatural meaning beyond natural, beyond physical, beyond corporeal.

 

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Mon Dec 20, 2021 - 21:15:23
That's because there is no "spirit realm."  There are heavens, but they are physical, corporeal.  There is an underworld, but again it is treated as a physical place.

To say that something is spiritual just means that it acts in the world through a mechanism which is unseen, usually because it has to do with thoughts and motives.

Jarrod