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RB, I suppose you are trying to make a difference between Satan's "short time" in Revelation 12:12 and his "little season" in Revelation 20:3.   They are both speaking of the same event when Satan was released from his millennial chain, which was the time when he was cast down to earth out of heaven for that "short time".   That casting out of heaven was at Christ's resurrection-day ascension.  This took place not long before John was writing Revelation (which composition of Revelation was no later than early AD 60, just before the AD 60 Laodicean earthquake). 

Satan was not loosed for a brief period of time on two occasions - only one occasion.  And a "little season" is scripturally going to be composed of less time than a "long season", which Joshua 24:7 tells you was 40 years of wilderness wanderings for the Israelites, when they "dwelt in the wilderness a LONG season". 

Satan's "short time" / "little season" of freedom to deceive the nations lasted for a time period less than 40 years, once his millennial chain was taken off at Christ's ascension in AD 33.  When scripture itself defines for you how long a "little season" is, it is best to pay attention to it.  Especially when Romans 16:20 informed the believers around AD 60 that God was going to crush Satan under their feet "shortly".   That encouraging, timely promise of Satan's approaching death meant something hopeful to the persecuted believers of those days, even though it carries little significance to you. 

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Tue Jan 18, 2022 - 17:41:14RB, I suppose you are trying to make a difference between Satan's "short time" in Revelation 12:12 and his "little season" in Revelation 20:3.   They are both speaking of the same event when Satan was released from his millennial chain, which was the time when he was cast down to earth out of heaven for that "short time".   That casting out of heaven was at Christ's resurrection-day ascension.   

I was already planning to add to Revelation 12/20 this morning, knowing I did not say enough.

A brief Timeline would help.

The casting out of Satan in Revelation 12 and the blinding of Satan happened within a fifty-day period~from Christ's resurrection to Pentecost when the Church was empowered from on high for the purpose of evangelizing the nations of this world according to Matthew 28:19,20; Mark 16:15,16; and Acts 1:9~which reads:

Quote from: JESUS CHRIST"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

Earth is the same as the world, in spite of what you say otherwise when you said:

Quote from:  3 Resurrections on: Fri Jan 14, 2022 - 10:05:04You quoted (and misinterpreted) Christ's rhetorical question in Luke 18:8. "...When the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?"  You would have this applying to the entire world at the close of fallen man's history.  It doesn't. It applied specifically to "THE EARTH" (tes ges), which referred to the LAND OF ISRAEL ALONE, and to only a certain single generation which Jesus called "a wicked and perverse generation".  If Christ had meant the entire world would be without faith, He would have used the word "oikoumene", not "tes ges". But since you reject using the original languages to assist with your interpretations of God's Word, you are crippled in your understanding of this text.

The red highlights are mine to show you your position is not according to the scriptures, but you must wrest them to make them fit your damnable doctrine of Preterism.  Back to the Timeline of Revelation 12/20.

Revelation 12 when Satan was cast out and the Salvation of God is ordained of God to go forth unto all nations~Satan did come down having great wrath for he knew his time was short to do his evil deeds. What did he truly know? He knew that he was approaching the LAST DAYS for the times of Christ is the last days of this earth with no more dispensations to follow these times.

QuoteActs 2:17~ And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Last days here meaning the TIMES OF CHRIST" and his kingdom on earth are the last days with NONE to follow.

Quote1st John 2:18~ "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time."

No more TIMES following the last time in Biblical prophecy. At the end of THIS TIME the beast (antichrist kingdoms of this world under the king from the bottomless pit) shall make war with God and his saints to make one final effort to destroy the righteous from off the earth once and for all~but their mission will be their destruction!

The short time of Revelation 12 is the LAST DAY of this world with NO MORE dispensations to follow.

Again, there are LATTER DAYS of the last day which the scriptures speak much concerning. 2nd Timothy 3:1-4:5; 2nd Peter 3:3; 1st Timothy 4:1, and so many more.

The blinding of Satan occurred when the Church was empowered on Pentecost, while the kingdom of God/heaven was being established throughout this world. The blinding was a restrain placed on the devil by God in order for the gospel to go forth unto all nations of the earth. To what degree Satan understood God's plan no one will ever know fully, yet he WAS A DECEIVED spirit in chains of darkness reserved unto the judgment of the great day of God's wrath~so, we will never know, yet he had some knowledge being a powerful created spirit that he is.

Once the elect comes into the fold overall speaking, Satan will be loose upon the world of God-haters and despisers of those that are good. This is the little season we see and read so much of in Matthew 24, 25; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2nd Thessalonians 2; Daniel and Revelation.  Following this little season is the Great White Throne Judgment, and then on into the New heaven and earth, The kingdom of God~where God reigns overall world without end.

RB, there is zero scripture that tells you Satan was being bound with a millennial chain at Pentecost.  On the contrary, the Holy Spirit was being poured out upon all God's sons and daughters in those days so that they could be equipped to do battle with Satan who was then LOOSED for a "short time", as John said was then happening in Revelation 12:12. 

What do you think Ephesians' defensive armor of God was for in those days?  The believers were "wrestling" with spiritual wickedness in high places - a LOOSED Satan, who was waging war in great anger with the saints (all those "fiery darts" being thrown at them by Satan).  This was NOT a bound Satan being described.  You cannot possibly say that Satan "walking about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour" was describing a BOUND Satan at that time.  That's impossible. 

Neither could Satan's snares which were taking people captive "at his will" at that time be describing a BOUND Satan.  Satan was freely operating on a broad spectrum in those days after Pentecost.   Evil men and seducers in those days were getting into a worse and worse condition - deceiving others, and being deceived themselves.  You would like to yank this out of its first-century context and say that it exclusively applies to today, but that's wrong.  Even Paul's complete evangelistic coverage of all of Asia had soon disintegrated in those days into "all they which are in Asia be turned away from me", as Paul told Timothy in 2 Timothy 1:15. 

I again strongly reject your assumption that I am teaching a "damnable doctrine" by noticing scripture's distinction between "the EARTH" (tes ges - usually the land of Israel) and "all the WORLD" (holes oikoumenes - the entire habitable world).  The KJV translators did you no favor by their ignoring this difference between these two Greek words.   This distinction between Israel and the Gentile lands (often referred to as "the Sea" as well as "the World") is all throughout the scriptures, in reference to the Israelites being identified with the promised LAND.  When Christ said there would be "great distress in THE LAND, and wrath upon THIS PEOPLE" in Luke 21:23, He was referring specifically to the LAND of ISRAEL or JUDEA, and the Israelite people living there who would receive God's "Days of Vengeance".  God has not extended those "Days of Vengeance" into several millennia of ongoing vengeance on the entire world for betraying and murdering His Son.  That would make Him unjust.

You wrote of the "last days" being the times of Christ when His Spirit would be poured out on all flesh.  We know Peter applied Joel's "last days" prophecy to the very time when the Pentecost period had begun, with men and women speaking in tongues about the wonderful works of God ("This is that which was spoken of by the prophet Joel..." - Acts 2:16).  Those special miraculous "sign gifts" were given to a particular generation (the first-century one) so that this generation who, in spite of those miraculous signs would NOT HEAR, would then be condemned for not giving heed to those speaking in the tongues of other nations. 

This miraculous "sign gift" of tongues passed away at the same time as that "wicked generation" passed away who did not give heed to this miraculous sign.  That means that particular set of "last days" also passed away with that "wicked generation". 

Scripture progresses in time from Pentecost and "the last days" in Acts 2:17  into "the last HOUR" in 1 John 2:18.  Then we have Peter in no uncertain terms announcing that "the end of all things is AT HAND" in 1 Peter 4:7. 

You just don't know how to tell time, RB.  That's your problem.  Scripture is very clear on this.  And you have a REAL problem with reading verb tenses correctly in English, even in the KJV.  If scripture announces that something is "NOW" going on at the time it is written, then you are not at liberty to kidnap that statement and transfer its fulfillment to a time of your choosing. 

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Wed Jan 19, 2022 - 10:43:19You just don't know how to tell time, RB.  That's your problem.  Scripture is very clear on this.  And you have a REAL problem with reading verb tenses correctly in English, even in the KJV.  If scripture announces that something is "NOW" going on at the time it is written, then you are not at liberty to kidnap that statement and transfer its fulfillment to a time of your choosing.

Listen at the worm calling the snail slimy! I need to be brief (well as brief as possible, too long for most I'm sure, but not for you~this will be my last one of this point, so I'll make sure I cover my bases with you)  so I can answer your Revelation 20 question~you make it difficult for me to get there, but I must just as Paul heading to Jerusalem...I'm coming in spite of the opposition from you. 

It would be nice if you heeded your own words.

Quote from: Paul to 3 Resurrections Romans 2:19-24~"And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written."

Quote from: 3 Resurrections  Reply #142 on: Yesterday at 10:43:19RB, there is zero scripture that tells you Satan was being bound with a millennial chain at Pentecost.

You wish! It is hard to prove this in a few words to bear with me.

QuoteRevelation 20:2~ "and He laid hold on the Dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him a thousand years".

Because of preconceived ideas, this is the verse where some Theologians become somewhat confused. Many make the assertion that this hasn't occurred as yet. They hypothesize that this will take place sometime during Christ's second coming. And ironically, in the midst of all the symbolic language here, they take exception to this thousand years being understood any other way but a literal length of time. Nevertheless, when we practice sound biblical hermeneutics, it becomes clear from the scriptures that Satan was bound by the victory of Christ on the cross. Teachings you reject. Satan bounding is to be understood to mean restraining HIM. He had to be bound so that Christ could build His Church by going into a domain where Satan has ruled from the beginning of time, so Christ's gospel could forth triumphantly releasing those whom Satan had held captive since the beginning of time. Satan is the great deceiver of the world and he held the people in bondage to him so that they were his slaves. We can get a much better understanding of this truth by looking "carefully" at Matthew chapter 12, where the Pharisees are claiming that Jesus is casting out devils by the power of Satan. And Jesus asks them, "how can Satan fight himself? A Kingdom divided against itself cannot stand". Christ says that if He casts out Devils by the Spirit of God, then the Kingdom of God has come unto them! Of course, we know He did cast them out by the Spirit of God. Therefore, it is likewise unquestionably true that the Kingdom of God had come unto them in the person of the King himself! And that is a very telling and unmistakable truth not subject to private interpretation, and which shouldn't be taken lightly, nor trampled upon. The Kingdom of God "Had" Come to Israel by the King himself and his forerunner, John the Baptist. And Christ doesn't stop there, He goes on to make sure we all know exactly what He is talking about, by then giving us this most revealing parable:

Quote from: JESUS CHRISTMatthew 12:29~"How can one enter into a strong man's house and spoil his goods, except he first Bind the strong man and then he will spoil his house."

When we study this parable honestly, by the Grace of God we must assuredly come to the truth of it. The Lord Jesus Christ came to spoil, or Plunder (Take by conquest the possessions from) Satan's house. And those possesions were you, I, and every other person who was unregenerate. We were those held strongly in captivity in this house of bondage. But in order to take Satan's goods, first, Christ had to "bind him." Look again carefully at the parable itself, and ask yourself honestly these questions:

         #1. Who is the Strong man?
         #2. What is his house?
         #3. Who is it that comes to bind him?
         #4. What are the possessions in the strong man's house that he wants to Spoil (take by conquest)?
         #5. What "MUST" be done first, before that can happen?
         #6. WHEN did this take place?

When you have answered those questions nobly, it's an absolute! There can be no other rational conclusion but that #1, Satan is the strong man. #2, His house is the adversarial principality. #3, Christ is the one who came to bind him and take the possessions or prisoners in his principality, #4, the Church were those possesions being held captive or in bondage by Satan, and #5, Christ is he who had to First, bind Satan! #6. This took place at the death and resurrection of Christ. God highly exalting Jesus as a victorious King bringing all his enemies under his feet~ his army of believers going forth conquering its foes in the regions where they served other gods. 

If indeed Christ had cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then obviously it was the power of God manifest in Him, and thus unambiguously demonstrated that He was the prophesied Messiah, the Son of David who was to come and establish that Kingdom. The same Son of David of whom the multitude spoke in the first instance. It was indeed for this reason the Pharisees had accused Christ of having a devil. Consider wisely and in context.

QuoteMatthew 12:22-24~"Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the Son of David? But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils."

But indeed Christ had cast out devils by the Spirit of God and that meant that the Messiah, the Son of David had been manifest, and His Kingdom had come unto them. It is in this "context" that Christ speaks about how He must first bind Satan. When Christ cast Satan out of individuals, He was 'signifying' by this that the Kingdom of God had come (Matthew 12:28). The kingdom of God was in their mist and they perceived it not (Luke 17:21) by Christ coming to dwell where Satan once was, it's not an earthly kingdom. And the Spoiling of Satan's Kingdom or principality is the principle of this parable. His goods, (The Spoil) are all of the disciples, and all of us who were unsaved (in captivity to Satan) and deceived of Satan, who are now set free in Christ. This parable is a clear picture that God gives us to illustrate Christ came to plunder the house of Satan and set free those who sat in the darkness thereof. And God tells us, first Christ had to bind the strong man, and only then could He spoil his house. This blinding did not make Satan inactive, but limited his power . This is not incidental or insignificant language.

Scripture must be defined by scripture, not by Theologians. When we do that, it is clear the binding of Satan took place at the cross, or the death and resurrection of Christ.

Again in Mark chapter 3. The Lord Jesus has the blasphemous accusation brought against Him that He was working through Satan. Christ asks them, "how can He battle against the Kingdom of Satan, if He is of the Kingdom of Satan? A House divided against itself cannot stand! And He declares:

QuoteMark 3:26~"And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except He FIRST Bind the strong man; and then He will spoil his House."

These are God's parables and God puts parables in His Word not to be "ignored", but to be considered and discerned. Some people close their eyes and ears to the truth because of their Church tradition, OR, their newfound doctrine that they believe cannot be wrong~ but this is unrighteousness of the highest order. God says, "hear His parable!" Christ is the one who has come to conquer this strong man's (Satan's) kingdom, and God says, in order for Him to spoil Satan's house, Satan first had to be bound~ meaning, his power LIMITED.

Indeed, as our Lord says, "if He cast out Satan by the power of God, then the Kingdom of God had come upon them." Not 2000 years later, but with Christ! The Kingdom had come, and the captivity was being set free, and there was Peace being made with God by those whom Christ delivered. This isn't speculation, it's clearly delineated in the pages of Scripture.

Preterism and doctrines like Premillennialism are in effect saying, "wrong God, You claim that Satan was even destroyed along with his angels just a few years later in 70. A.D. Premillennialism thinks the Kingdom of God has not come yet, for Christ has not bound Satan yet, the captivity has not been freed, and Christ has not yet brought Peace to the earth, nor established righteousness". But according to these scriptures Christ has bound Satan, and He has taken a spoil from his house, and He has established His Kingdom in "His" righteousness.

QuoteLuke 11:20-23~"But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the Kingdom of God is come upon you.  When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, He TAKETH from him all his armor wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils."

Satan is the Strong man in this parable. Stronger than all of us so that he held us firmly in captivity to serve him in his kingdom of drakness. And you can be sure, he keeps his palace! No one can set themselves free from his strong grip. But when one stronger than him (Christ) comes and overcomes him, He takes away Satan's armor, making him defenseless so that he is unable to stop Christ's onslaught. Thus Christ conquers and divides Satan's spoil. He is unable to defend himself and prevent the Church from being built on those spoiled from the world. This is what these parables are teaching. Likewise, the Angel of Revelation chapter 20 had came with a Great chain to symbolize this is to hold this "strong" adversarial spirit. And as these scriptures clearly show, before this Strong one's house could be spoiled, he "First" had to be bound by Christ.

While Satan is bound, the Holy Temple is being built and the true gospel is going forth to the nations that the called of these nations are Saved. Satan is without defense (as per parable) being restrained from being able to (with his deceiving these nations) prevent people from receiving truth and becoming truly Saved. In other words, while he is bound, the Lord's Church will be built with the spoils of Satan's house. Iniquity is held down until all who are to be sealed are sealed (Saved). And when the 1000 years are over and the kingdom prepared to be delivered up to God, Satan will then be allowed loose from his binding (by he who has the key) to once again go forth deceiving the world. This will bring Great Tribulation to the camp of the Saints (Saints are believers) as the Churches will then be overrun and the people therein brought into captivity to Satan. There will be a great falling away or divorcing (apostasy) from God in the Church at this time. (2nd Thess. 2) It will become so wicked, that if God didn't shorten those days and return in final judgment, there would be no flesh saved (practically speaking) . I.e.,  with true biblically knowledge of its doctrines...we are almost there now. But that will never happen totally, as scripture says God will shorten the days (for the sake of the Chosen). Those who will endure in this time of Great Tribulation (the faithful, those who keep God's word over man's) will be Saved with true understanding of the word of God overall speaking. They shall be changed instantly, without death, into their new spiritual bodies at Christ's coming where every eye shall see him.

The point being made is, the Church is Saved by being freed from the house of Satan by the work of Christ at the cross to bind Satan. I don't know why anyone would consider it strange to hear that Satan was bound at the cross. The New Testament bears abundant testimony to the fact that Satan is a defeated foe. Colossians 2:15 says that Jesus Spoiled principalities and Powers and made a show of them openly triumphing over them in it. Keep in mind what Jesus said in Mark, that He first had to bind the strong man before He can spoil his house. Ephesians 4:8 tells us very plainly Christ led captivity captive and gave gifts to men. The captivity is the power of Satan to hold us in his Prison, and the gift Christ gave is Salvation! But, He first had to lead the captivity "Captive," Then He could give the gifts to men. You see, these verses are glossed over (or worse) by so many people. The question is, does it really mean that Satan had to be bound in order for Christ to spoil his house, when it says it? What was the captivity that Christ had to lead captive in order to give gifts to men? No need for vague speculation, the scriptures are clear about it.

Scripture indicates that being unsaved is as being in a prison or in captivity, with Satan as your Captor. No way you can get out because you are in bondage to sin. You serve sin. But Christ came to set this captivity free. He came to loose the prisoners, to spoil Satan's house. Remember Jesus said, If "I" shall make you free, you shall be free indeed? Israel didn't know what He was talking about! They retorted, "they were never in bondage and were born free (-John 8:33)". But Jesus was talking about a different captivity, a different house of Bondage. A captivity far greater than any political one and a prison house far more damnable than any earthly prison. He was talking about Israel being in captivity to Satan. And Jesus said, If I will make you free, ye shall be free indeed. But like so many today, they were thinking in worldly terms, or in earthly or carnal terms, and Jesus was speaking in the language of the Spiritual. They thought He was going to set up an earthly Kingdom, but Jesus came to set up a "far" superior Kingdom than a worldly one. They wanted Him to set Jacob free from captivity to the Romans, but He came to redeem Jacob in a way that would set them free forever, and would rule them in a kingdom which has no end. They thought apart from the Romans, they were already free, but Jesus knew that they were captives in the House of Satan. He came down from Heaven to bind Satan and loose the captivity and give gifts to men. Doing that, this freedom would be greater than any worldly or (so called) literal freedom that they could imagine. When we learn the parable of the binding of the strong man, we see (By the Grace of God) exactly when, and more importantly why Satan was bound. This is also illustrated in the Prophesy of the messenger of the Covenant redeeming Israel, as fulfilled in Christ:

QuoteJeremiah 31:11~"For the Lord hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was Stronger than He..

Jacob (Israel) was redeemed at the cross, and He who redeemed him was the Son of God from Heaven, Christ. Jacob was held in bondage by one who was stronger (remember the parable) and this of course was Satan. He was stronger than Israel and held them in bondage. The Redemption was made on the cross (it's not a future event) that Israel would be set free from the hand of Satan. And this is what the "great" chain to hold him signifies. Jeremiah 31 tells us all about this New Testament with the House of Israel that this Messenger confirmed or strengthened. Compare this diligently with the commentary on it in Hebrews chapters 8 and 9 (read it all carefully) and you will see that this is Christ, the messenger of the New Covenant or Testament with Israel. And the Israel in view is the New Testament Church! According to it's fulfillment spoken of in Hebrews, Christ accomplished this by the cross.

Look at 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2, which speaks of the time when iniquity will be un-restrained or loosed after having been restrained. Particularly take note of verses 6,7,8, and 9:

Quote 2nd Thessalonians 2:6-9~"And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only He who now restraineth will restrain, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: Even him whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.."

This Chapter of 2nd Thessalonians is dealing with the falling away from God, which precedes the Lord's second advent. And verse 6 tells us that there is something withholding or holding down this "Evil" power of Satan, but that there is a "specific time " appointed when this evil will be set loose and revealed. This sin (lawlessness or iniquity) of Satan was in the world even at the time of the writing of 2nd Thessalonians, and had been since the fall of man and yet God reveals here 'unambiguously' that it was being restrained to be revealed at a later (His) time. This iniquity or transgression that is being held down is obviously the power of Satan to do great lawlessness in the Holy Temple and thus deceive the nations thereby. While it is being restrained the man of lawlessness cannot sit in God's Temple. The Church will continue to grow. This was iniquity of Satan bound at the cross so the Temple (Church) could be built. That's why these verses illustrate that it is being held down or restrained and declares a time it will be loosed. Naturally when it is let go, (unbound, unrestrained, released, whatever you want to call it), then this iniquity will abound (see Matt. 24:12) and there will be deceivings of false prophets, lying signs and wonders and miracles and great tribulation for true believers.

Quote2nd Thessalonians 2:9~"even him whose coming is is after the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders."

When that iniquity that was held down is loosed, then false prophets, lying teachers and the lawless man, will come to deceive the nations with all Power and lying Signs and Wonders. It is no mere coincidence that this mirrors Revelation chapter 20 where when Satan is loosed from being bound, he goes forth to "deceive" the nations of thefour quarters of the world. In other words, it will be a universal deception of the peoples of the world by the loosing of this spirit of Satan. The iniquity of Satan (which was restrained) spoken of in Revelation 20, will be loosed to go forth deceiving the world with false gospels, and 2nd Thessalonians mirrors that message of Satan's deception in great power. This isn't God playing word games, it's talking about the same time, and the same loosing of Satan. The context of 2nd Thessalonians 2 is of Christ's second coming and our gathering together to meet Him, but First it declares, these things had to happen. Apostasy, lawless man in the temple of God as if he was God, and the iniquity that was restrained be loosed. It all points to the same conclusion. Namely, after Christ build's his Holy Temple, then Satan will be loosed to deceive. The question would now arise, Why? 2nd Thessalonians 2:10 answers this. It is because they received not the love of truth, that they might have Salvation, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. The same reason God has always brought judgment upon His congregation! It shouldn't come as any surprise to faithful students of the Bible. History repeats itself, just as Israel of old corrupted themselves, so the professing temple of the NT does the same, and will receive the same punishment.

There are those who are commonly called 'Carnal Christians' (which is really no Christian at all) in most every Church, and they tend to want the wide road, the smooth road, the worldly way. They are usually kept in check by the faithfulness of the majority, but as many in the Church depart from the faith, it is spoken of as their being seduced and deceived by false prophets and teachers. And verse 7 of 2nd Thessalonians 2 explains that something was holding this iniquity restrained that it couldn't take place then. It says "he that now letteth, will let, until he be taken out of the way." In the KJV this word "letteth" is an old English word which means restrain. . So once again we see the principle that something is holding Satan's iniquity down until a certain set time (spoken of here as, till one be taken out of the midst). This iniquity of Satan that will be revealed later, was restrained until Christ be taken out of the midst of the Churches. Because the Lord is the only one who could restrain it. The Lord is the only one in the midst of the Church or temple who restrains iniquity. When iniquity is loosed (Matthew 24:12, the great tribulation period) iniquity will again abound, and the Love of God shall grow cold. This is the apostasy, from God which 2nd Thessalonians speaks of.

There are two things that we see conclusively in this verse of Thessalonians:

The mystery of this iniquity was already at work then when this was written to the Thessalonians! i.e., The spirit of Satan was "still" active in the world~but though this iniquity was still active in the world then, it was declared by God to be being HELD DOWN, (restrained or bound) until a certain time when He that held it down should be taken out of the way (midst).

It is clear that He that holds the evil spirit of iniquity down can only be God Himself. Again, as in Revelation chapter 20, no one else has that kind of power to restrain that spirit, Satan! Who is it that has the keys to the bottomless pit and has bound Satan there, sealed, reserved for this time? It can only be God Himself! And only the Lord can remove this restraint of iniquity of Satan. And when the Temple which He came to build is come to the full with the gentiles that are now coming in, God will do just that. For their testimony is finished and God will remove His hand of restraint of Satan as Judgment on the unfaithful. And so all Israel shall be saved! When we read 2nd Thessalonians 2:10,11, and 12, we see the reasons. Those who think that the Lord will not remove his hand of restraint of Satan to bring Judgment on those who refuse to receive truth of scripture are not reading, nor considering all of these scriptures carefully.

To make a long story short, (already been too long for the average person) the binding of Satan to withhold or restrain this horrible iniquity of deceiving was instituted by the Cross of Christ, and it will last until the time near the end of the world, when Christ is taken out of the midst of the Churches (where two or three are gathered together in His name, there is He in the midst~Matthew 18:20). Satan is then loosed as Judgment upon this unfaithful Church, as the Lord says that "judgment must begin at the House of the God." This judgment doesn't last long because Satan's end is that he will be destroyed with the manifestation or brightness of the Lord's second coming.

So this Binding of Satan, and his Iniquity being held down is all intimately tied together. You can't have this iniquity loosed without Satan being loosed, and vise versa. They both are of the same restraining that took place at the Cross when Christ wounded his head (but his deadly wound will be healed!) Just as the scriptures said, in order for Christ to spoil Satan's house, He first had to Bind him. He did! And his house has been continually spoiled every since. And it will continue to be spoiled until all that are to be sealed, are sealed. Then the dragon Satan will be unsealed, and loosed, and the end follow soon thereafter.

QuoteRevelation 13:3, 12~"And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast...............................And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed"

Fits perfectly with the bounding and loosing of Satan. Of course, there is~ what do we expect, there's a perfect flow of truth throughout God's word.

Does anyone need help in understanding Revelation 13:3, and verse12? I'll be happy to share my understanding with them?

Quotehe exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him

  This is rich spiritual food for sheep to eat~lush green pastures! Thank you Lord Jesus!

Morning RB,

By the length of your post, it looks as if you have recovered a bit from the last visit of grands.  I'm sure you wouldn't exchange them for the world, but they will tax your energy keeping up with them, for sure. 

Ok, back to the chronology of "binding the strong man".  I've no argument that the symbolism of the "strong man" was fully intended to represent Satan.  But this is where you again have the chronology of Satan's biography going off track.   You are putting great emphasis on Christ "FIRST" binding the strong man, and THEN spoiling his goods.  And this is absolutely true.  But you are applying that to the wrong period of history. 

What you are tripping over is failing to recognize that Christ was ALREADY SPOILING Satan's "goods" by casting our devils during His earthly ministry because Satan had "FIRST" BEEN BOUND much earlier in time before Christ's days on earth.  You would have the binding of Satan being initiated at the cross.  That's impossible, because the "spoiling" of Satan's property by Christ and the disciples casting out of devils was clear evidence of Satan's binding being initiated even before Christ's earthly ministry.

The "defeat" of Satan that was accomplished by the cross and the resurrection was to have Satan lose the battle in heaven when Christ ascended on His resurrection day.  This defeat in heaven was the catalyst for turning Satan into an infuriated foe.  He was a cornered rat on earth at that time, with only a few more desperate years of that "short time" left in which to operate on the planet upon which he was loosed.     

You seem to be avoiding the clear examples I am giving of Satan's obviously loosed condition by the "armor of God" example, the "roaring lion" example, and Satan's willful "ensnaring" people at his pleasure in those first-century days.   You need to deal directly with each one of these examples, because there is no getting around them. 

Instead of addressing these examples above, you are bringing up the temporarily restrained "MAN of Lawlessness" (not Satan) who would be operating similar to Satan with lying wonders, etc.   This was NOT SATAN being "withheld" by a chain.  It was a MAN who was going to sit in the actual second temple claiming to be God, once this MAN'S restrainer was taken out of the way.

It was not a "chain" that was "withholding" the revelation of this one particular MAN of Lawlessness.  It was another man who was doing the "withholding" of this single Man of Lawlessness.  I have already written before that this MAN was the Zealot named Menahem who was being restrained by the high priesthood with Ananias in power at the time Paul was writing.  Ananias and the high priesthood still being in power in those days was keeping Zealotry in check.  The Zealot cause was an influence in Israel that was "already working" in Paul's days.  The word "Lawless ones" was applied in prophecy to the Zealot thieves crucified beside Christ, because Christ "was numbered with the lawless ones".

Satan's biography is not a triumphant one.

Satan had been bound long before Christ's earthly ministry.  The examples of devils being cast out of those in Israel were proof that Satan had "FIRST" been bound already before then.

Satan and his devils were then defeated in heaven by an ascending Christ.  Satan was "judged" (John 16:11) by being kicked out of heaven's realm forever at that point, and thrown down to earth for a "short time" (Revelation 12:12).  At this point, the "judgment of the earth" began (John 12:31) by Satan's wrathful presence among humanity - fully released for only that "little season" after the millennium's end (Revelation 20:3).  Satan was doing whatever deceptive damage he could during that first century, as we have multiple examples listed above in Ephesians 6:11-18, 1 Peter 5:8, and 2 Tim. 2:26.     

Then Satan and all his devils were "imprisoned" in the city of Jerusalem, as Isaiah 24:21-23 and Revelation 18:2 described.  After which time of oppressing the inhabitants of the city in that "Great Tribulation" period, Satan and his devils were destroyed to ashes on the earth by God's consuming fire, as Ezekiel 28:18-19 predicted.

A dead Satan was then crushed under the feet of the believers, as promised in Romans 16:20.  And every unclean spirit "passed out of the land", as predicted in Zechariah 13:2. 

This is not a story with a happy ending for Satan and his devils.  And since you yourself, RB, believe Satan comes to a similar dismal ending, how is this such a "damnable doctrine" if I am showing from scripture how God already performed this very thing in the past?       



 

You are imposing your own view of what it means that Satan be bound rather than the biblical view.  I present a biblical view of what it means that Satan be bound. You obviously didn't bother to read it, or you simply ignored it.

Of course I read what you wrote, 4WD.  Anybody taking the time to post something online here deserves that respect at the bare minimum.

But the argument I am currently engaging in with RB for the moment is not really discussing what composes that particular binding of Satan.  We are concentrating more on the chronology of WHEN that binding took place, and WHEN Satan was released.  This determines exactly WHEN the millennium was "finished" and "expired".  Simply that.   It gets into a different kind of discussion when we delve into HOW that binding affected Satan.

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Thu Jan 20, 2022 - 10:01:12This is not a story with a happy ending for Satan and his devils.  And since you yourself, RB, believe Satan comes to a similar dismal ending, how is this such a "damnable doctrine" if I am showing from scripture how God already performed this very thing in the past?

I said my last one would be all on that particular point~I may post more to better cover certain points

QuoteBy the length of your post, it looks as if you have recovered a bit from the last visit of grands.

We both have, getting some good sleep without NOISE and little feet running everywhere~the older ones are so so taxing as the younger. 

At the moment I'm studying to answer so I cannot be gainsaid. I want to be as thorough as possible with my limited ability, so give me time, I'm laboring to decide my next move. There're so many different avenues to approach this~so I need time.  I may be ready by tomorrow. 

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Thu Jan 20, 2022 - 10:01:12What you are tripping over is failing to recognize that Christ was ALREADY SPOILING Satan's "goods" by casting our devils during His earthly ministry because Satan had "FIRST" BEEN BOUND much earlier in time before Christ's days on earth.  You would have the binding of Satan being initiated at the cross.  That's impossible, because the "spoiling" of Satan's property by Christ and the disciples casting out of devils was clear evidence of Satan's binding being initiated even before Christ's earthly ministry.

As I go on into this discussion, please address below my questions and thoughts.

When and where do the scriptures reveal Satan was bound much earlier in time before Christ's days on earth~and show the reason "why" he was bound.

I agree that Satan's power was restained as far as Israel after the flesh was concerned at times in their history.

Also, the casting out of devils during Christ's ministry on earth was proof that the kingdom of God had come as promised in the OT. Satan did not need to be bound, because a greater and more powerful kingdom was there confronting Satan's kingdom~yet this kingdom at Christ's coming was limited to Israel only, it was not meet to take the children's bread and cast it to the dogs. But that all changed when Israel rejected the kingdom and its king! They were looking for an earthly kingdom of this world and still are btw. All this was done by the determining eternal counsel of God

The Gentile nations steep in worshipping false gods were going to get that kingdom promised in the OT, yet in order to accomplish this, Satan, their god had to be bound and was according to the word of God.

This is only half of the story, the Gentiles like Israel of old did as wicked as Israel in turning away their ears from hearing the word of God, and that rebellion brings on the wrath of God just as it did on Israel after the flesh.

The book of Daniel, certain parts of the gospels, and 2nd Thessalonians 2; and Revelation, covers this period of the Gentiles nations rebellious spirit and the judgment that was appointed unto them of God, and how God had His seven thousand who never bow their knees to the god of the nations they were in, and because of this suffered greatly at their hands.

Preterism rejects these truths and rubber-stamps much of the bible by saying FULLIFLLED 70 A.D. ! leaving us with very little scriptures for the church in the very midst of this great tribulation that Daniel, Christ, Paul, and John said would come and is upon her even as we speak.

We are now living at the end of the days of the parable of the mustard seed.

QuoteMatthew 13:31~"Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof. "

This parable is very easy to understand and if one does not understand this parable then how could they ever understand any of the parables.

This parable proves that your position on the devil and his evil spirits friends were destroyed in 70 A.D. is false and they are very much alive and present in the churches of the Gentiles in the last days before the coming of Jesus Christ.

The kingdom of heaven/God which IS HERE at this very hour~ started out in the days of Christ very, very small, only about a hundred and twenty in the upper room just before Pentecost has turned in the one of, if not the largest known entity in this world on just about every secondary and main street across this globe.

Guess what, they are not filled with saints but fowls of the air...in other words devils, and teachings doctrines of devils in those places of worship! They are not just there~they LODGE THERE, permanently to stay! The man of sin ruling in the temple of God~so, let those in Judea flee unto the mountains and they WILL~that's, the seven thousand will.

I may take some chapters in Revelation and prove that that prophetic book gives us details of these very days~days going on now, not 2000 years ago.

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on: Thu Jan 20, 2022 - 10:01:12 When and where do the scriptures reveal Satan was bound much earlier in time before Christ's days on earth~and show the reason "why" he was bound.

I really need you to address this for now.

3Rs,

May I be permitted to interject a question here?

You claim Satan had been bound and then Satan was released ... for his little time....  See reply #29 of this thread.

Quote
This chained-up, sealed condition on Satan's deception of the nations was released at Christ's ascension that resurrection day.

If Satan was bound and not released until  Christ's ascension that resurrection day who was Jesus talking to when he said

Matt 4: 10 Then Jesus said to him, "Away with you, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.' " ?

This was before His crucifixion and during His 40 days in the wilderness after His own baptism by John.

Please answer only after you respond to RB. TY!

I'll give a quick brief overview of "my" understanding of Revelation 13. Evil beasts are images in Scripture that often signify the carnal (fleshly), beastly, dangerous and wicked nature of man. It is sometimes used to signify evil Kingdoms or wicked carnal individuals therein.

Quote from: DavidPsalms 73:22~"So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee."

It is my position that beasts are often used in Scripture to signify the animalistic flesh-driven nature of man. Without Christ, man is as a creature or beast without conscience or wisdom, and like a beast his driving force is to get whatever it desires, to tear, to devour, without consideration for law. It is often used to represent kingdoms or individuals as a token of those who live by the flesh (carnal nature) rather than the Spirit of God's law. We are convinced that Revelation chapter 13 uses this imagery to paint a portrait of the carnal and wicked kingdom of Satan, as well as the false prophets whom he empowers to devour. The carnal, rebellious, disobedient man ruled by Satan is the likness (image) of the beast. See 2nd Corinthians 11:13-15

QuoteRevelation 13:1-2~"And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority."

Without going into too much detail, the sea often used in Scripture as a synonym for the deep, bottomless pit or abyss, the spiritual place where this evil spirit resides ready to be loosed upon man at any moment. The first beast is the body of the antichrist (his kingdom) that was wounded at Christ's death and resurrection. The heads in Scripture often signify authority, and the number 7 is the perfect number of completeness. Thus I believe that the 7 heads represent Satan's authority to rule as the prince of this world throughout time (7 mountains = 7 kingdoms). Those seven kingdoms are easily identified in the Scriptures...later we may cover them. 

Horns in Scripture often signify the power of whatever is in view, as the horn that was broken in Daniel (meaning his power was broken). The number 10 signifies the fullness of whatever is in view. In this instance the 10 horns signify Satan's "Power" over men to rule for the fullness of this short period of time near the time of the end of the world. The fullness and rule of this period is also spoken of in Scripture as one hour. Thus these 10 horns rule (as kings) with the beast kingdom one hour. And their crowns again illustrate they reign with him. i.e., crowns are for kings.

Quote from: JOHNRevelation 17:12~"And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast."

This also shows clearly that the first beast (with these 10 horns) spans the completeness (7) of time, and near the end of this time (the 1 hour of God's judgment) when the church is overtaken by the man of sin, these 10 kings will reign driven by the spirit of the devil himself for this short period (little season) after Satan is loosed from the bottomless pit. The wound that was healed was the power of Satan to deceive the nations, which was before taken away (when Satan was bound) by Chris. At this time when Satan is loosed (the would healed), he again goes out to gather together and deceive the nations to bring them up against the camp of the saints.

Quote from: THE HOLY GHOSTRevelation 13:3~"And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast."

Christ, of course, wounded him by the cross, and also looses the beast, or heals that wound, after all Israel are sealed. (See 2nd Peter 3:9)Satan is loosed so that He might bring judgment upon the unfaithful (spiritual harlot) church.

Quote from: JOHNRevelation 13:4-5~"And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months."

Under the authority of Satan, these kings rule and go to make war against the camp of the saints (the church), it being judged of God for its abominations, after which is the return of Christ on the clouds of glory. Christ wounds and Christ heals that wound, to the glory of God.

Compare Revelation 17:8,11 of, "the beast that was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit."  In other words, this is the Beast, this is the power of Satan as he brought Israel into apostasy, as Christ defeated him, and as he again ascends out of the bottomless pit to attack the church. Just as a ravenous beast would attack the sheep in a fold, so Satan comes as an adversary of the house of God. He was because He ruled before Christ bound him. He is not because Christ bound Him. And He ascends out of the Pit because Christ looses him.

And the ability to bring God's external church down was bound or restrained by Christ's binding Satan at the cross, but his losing at end of the millennial reign allows this judgment, even as Israel was judged. Thus the Gentile congregation is no better than the Jewish one. Apostasy knows no bounds. The blasphemies that he speaks are his false teachings and contradictions forsaking the Word of God. These are the great things he speaks that deceive and which Revelation 13 talks about.

QuoteRevelation 13:6-7~"And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

Same as Revelation 20 when Satan is loosed from the Pit to make war with the saints.

Quote from: JOHNRevelation 13:8-9~"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear."

All of those who aren't sealed of God in Israel worship the carnal, Pseudo, or Antichrist religion instead of God. He has deceived them so that they serve him, while thinking they do God service.

QuoteRevelation 13:10-11~"He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon."

Later

RB, please, slow it down.  We are talking about one point only right now.  It does no good to throw an entire basket of tennis balls into the court.  They only deflect from the main point of WHEN Satan was released, which was the same time as the millennium was "expired" and "finished".

You have asked me to prove that Satan was bound with his millennial chain much earlier than Christ's ministry.  I have already done this with the discussion of Christ "FIRST binding the strong man" (which we agree is Satan) even BEFORE He spoiled Satan's goods.  If Christ was comparing His own casting out of devils during His earthly ministry with this "spoiling of Satan's goods, then Satan MUST have already been bound "FIRST" before then.   This is a very, very simple point.  I could get my autistic grandson to understand this chronology of what happens "FIRST". 

All during Christ's earthly ministry, Satan was still in that restricted condition of not deceiving the nations.  (They were doing a competent job of deceiving themselves, however, even without Satan's influence.)   But Christ predicted to the people just when that release of Satan would occur.  Five days before His crucifixion, Jesus told them "NOW is the judgment of this world; NOW shall the prince of this world be cast out."  He was referring to the war in heaven, in which Satan would be cast out of heaven, down to the earth for that "short time" of deceiving the nations once more.  And scripture tells us that this very prediction Christ made was applying to what death He was about to die (John 12:31-33).   

And once more, on the very night of the Last Supper, Christ again warned the disciples "The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me." (John 14:30).  Satan was soon going to be released in great wrath on earth for that "short time" of deceiving the nations again, and Christ wanted the disciples to be forewarned of this rapidly-approaching threat.   Mercifully, the newly-risen Christ did not let even a day go by of Satan's release from his millennial chain before He came to breath the Holy Spirit into His disciples that evening.  That Holy Spirit in them was greater than he that was in the world (a newly-released Satan).   



For Rella,

Your objection seems to be based on the supposition that a bound Satan who cannot deceive is a bound Satan who cannot move, and cannot even be present in that situation.  Not so.  That was not a literal metal chain put upon Satan made of interlocking links, and it was not a literal pit of earth and rock with no bottom to it.  These were symbols denoting a spiritual limit on what influence Satan was allowed to have on the minds of men. 

Do you see Satan being able to successfully deceive Christ in that wilderness setting?  Of course not.   The millennial chain restricting Satan's deception also never states that Satan would not TRY to deceive.  It just means he himself would have no success with his efforts to deceive. 

Quote from: JOHNRevelation 13:10-11~ "He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon."

John sees another vision of a beast coming up from the earth. The earth signifies they come up from the world, and this beast has two horns like a lamb, but speaks as a dragon. This beast represents the false prophets. They come looking like they have the power of the prophets of light (horns signify power, the number two signifies the truthful witness of the church), but what gives them away is that they speak as the Dragon, which is Satan. In other words, they appear as a messenger of light, but their gospel is false and of the adversary Satan. WHich proves Satan has not gone anywhere still doing what he has always done~being an enemy of God and truth.

The first beast, who the false prophets cause men to worship, represents the antichrist system of this world, or more to the point Satan's substitute kingdom. It is the body of false worshipers. Revelation is written this way because just as the true church is represented by the body of Christ, and the Old Testament congregation by the body of Moses, the false congregations is seen as the body of the anti (substitute) or false Christ. The false prophets are those who cause the unfaithful to depart from Scripture and worship Him. All Israel who are not sealed unto the day of redemption.

QuoteRevelation 13:12-14~
"And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live."

The deadly wound was given the beast who is to be worshiped at the cross. Christ dealt the adversary a death wound so that he could not deceive the nations (and the church could be built), but at this time Satan is loosed from his prison. This is spoken of as the deadly wound being healed, and the reason is so that the unfaithful people of the world might again serve him (as judgment). The false prophets, the second beast, deceive the unfaithful people and seduce them into serving this antichrist kingdom by means of false miracles, signs and wonders. Remember, the devil was bound for the specific purpose of the nations not being deceived. Now that He is loosed, his false prophets again deceive the nations, in order to usher in the Lord's second coming.

QuoteRevelation 13:15-16~" And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:"

The false prophets give life to the likeness of the Antichrist by propagating their false teachings, which leads to them overcoming the church and causing all the faithful therein (the two witnesses=JEWS and GENTILES) to be killed. Those remaining as a judgment of God are said to be marked on their hand (not literally as some suppose, but spiritually~speaking of them in FELLOWSHIP with the beast signifying their will belongs to them,) and in their forehead, signifying their mind is sold out to Satan, they are in AGREEMENT in the spirit of doing wickedness. Just as a cow is branded or marked to signify ownership, so this signifies these unsealed are slaves to the antichrist~this world system.

QuoteRevelation 13:17-18~"And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."

I'm coming back in the morning and finishing this chapter.

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Sat Jan 22, 2022 - 11:18:03RB, please, slow it down.  We are talking about one point only right now.  It does no good to throw an entire basket of tennis balls into the court.  They only deflect from the main point of WHEN Satan was released, which was the same time as the millennium was "expired" and "finished".

That is not the real question.  I am almost positive that RB agrees with you on that statement.  But the real question is when did the millennium end.  And that is where you are clearly wrong.  You are both talking past each other.  With you 3 Res, being a Preterist, that is typical in any discussion in eschatology.

Revelation thirteen is very critical to understand for it helps greatly in understanding the timeline of Satan's blinding and loosening~or when his deadly wound is healed, which is one and the same.

Also, it helps to know perfectly whose is under consideration of Satan's wrath~you desire to limit it to national Israel, when the truth is~they are not even under consideration. His wrath mainly is directed to the camp of the saints, the spiritual twelve tribes of Israel~the two witnesses of Revelation, God's two chosen Olive trees~per Zachariah 4; Romans 11; and Revelation 11.

This wrath of Satan reaches its pinnacle during the time of Jacob's trouble~the greatest spiritual tribulation period ever to take place on this earth. A time the likes this world has never seen, no will ever see. It will not be fought with spears and swords, tanks and missiles, guns and bombs, but over the words of the Living God....those who keep the testimony of Jesus Christ, against those that despise those glorious and blessed truths.

Quote from: JohnRevelation 12:17~"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

3 Resurrections~maybe some think I'm speaking past you, but these things are important to see and understand, in order to get this timeline correct of Satan's blinding and losing~the time his deadly wound was healed which makes up the eight and FINAL KINGDOM on this earth to withstand the God of heaven and His chosen holy army of believers.

Now to quickly finish chapter 13, then I'll look at another chapter that helps to see the release of Satan for short time just before the coming Of Jesus Christ and the end of the world. Revelation mainly has to do with the last half of the times of Christ~the last half of the week of Daniel's prophecy.

Quote from: THE HOLY GHOSTRevelation 13:17-18~"And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."

A number of "a" man without the Spirit of God!

The buying and selling signify the work of the church, and no one can work within the latter-day false churches except those who have been spiritually marked slaves of Satan~the saints are, for the most part, gone, cast out as trouble makers, spiritually zealots, unwanted, for they make those who have the mark of beast uncomfortable, etc.

Quote from: JOHNRevelation 11:10~"And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

God's faithful witnesses tormented the conscience of those false witnesses of the latter-day churches where the spirit of devils dwell who alone are able to buy and sell therein! Much like Christ's days and all the prophets before them. Selah   

The mark~ God tells us is 666, the number of a man void of God's Spirit.

Quote from: THE HOLY GHOSTZachariah 13:7-9~Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast~and its secret lies within such scriptures as Zachariah 13:7-9! 666 is two-thirds of a whole, leaving a small remnant of one-third. 666 is the mark of beast meaning all that follow the devil has that mark on the forehead (in agreement with him) and on their right hand (meaning in fellowship by following the king of darkness~and all of them like Eve truly think they are making themselves wise by doing so! That's called deception. If the truth was truly proclaimed we ALL are born with the mark of the beast! The mystery of iniquity is no new doctrine, it has been here since the fall of man! The only thing different is that it will increase greatly as this world comes to its end. He that hath ears, LET HIM HEAR!

Now you can give your own timeline so we can compare them to the scriptures in order to put it to the test against the testimony of the scriptures, the ONLY source of truth. 

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Sat Jan 22, 2022 - 11:18:03For Rella,

Your objection seems to be based on the supposition that a bound Satan who cannot deceive is a bound Satan who cannot move, and cannot even be present in that situation.  Not so. That was not a literal metal chain put upon Satan made of interlocking links, and it was not a literal pit of earth and rock with no bottom to it.  These were symbols denoting a spiritual limit on what influence Satan was allowed to have on the minds of men. 

Do you see Satan being able to successfully deceive Christ in that wilderness setting?  Of course not.   The millennial chain restricting Satan's deception also never states that Satan would not TRY to deceive.  It just means he himself would have no success with his efforts to deceive.

Why do you not listen to us when we say the SAME THING to you as far as Satan being bound~we too, have taught that Satan's blinding is nothing more than a restraint placed upon him, and his loosening is nothing more than allowing him to use MORE power.

Quote from: 3 Resurrections Reply #76 on: Sat Jan 08, 2022 - 09:52:42RB,

You are confusing the innate ability of mankind to perform wickedly with Satan instigating those actions.  Satan does not need to be released for mankind to deceive itself - whether Jew or Gentile back in Solomon's days.  That is one of the lessons we can learn from Satan being bound from AD 968 967 BC until the ascension in AD 33.

You claim that Satan was bound due to Christ's crucifixion, but it is the opposite.  He was RELEASED from his chain at that point.  This is why we have verses such as Peter warning the believers in those days that their adversary the Devil was then "walking about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour" in 1 Peter 5:8.  That is NOT a chained-up Satan being described there.

A loosed Satan is why we have the text about the saints putting on the whole armor of God at that point in Ephesians 6:11-18, so that they could withstand the attacks of Satan.  That is NOT a chained-up Satan in that text.

A loosed Satan is why we have verses such as 2 Timothy 2:26, with the saints being encouraged to recover themselves out of the snare of the Devil, who were being taken captive by him "at his will". That is NOT a chained-up Satan in that text.

You are talking out of both sides of your mouth! Inconsistency is the hallmark of error!

Maybe you want to reconsider your position.

For Rella,

Your objection seems to be based on the supposition that a bound Satan who cannot deceive is a bound Satan who cannot move, and cannot even be present in that situation.  Not so.  That was not a literal metal chain put upon Satan made of interlocking links, and it was not a literal pit of earth and rock with no bottom to it.  These were symbols denoting a spiritual limit on what influence Satan was allowed to have on the minds of men. 

Do you see Satan being able to successfully deceive Christ in that wilderness setting?  Of course not.   The millennial chain restricting Satan's deception also never states that Satan would not TRY to deceive.  It just means he himself would have no success with his efforts to deceive.
[/quote]

Sorry for the length of the following but pent up thoughts just beg to burst forth.

Your logic is about as clear as mud.

And only correct, in a limited way.  My supposition that  "A bound Satan who cannot deceive is a bound Satan who cannot move, and cannot even be present in that situation."  I do believe that based on the chains that I believe to be real. And I believe based on Rev 20:1

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand

Where in history have you read that The chains were not real?

Starting with Rev 20: 1-3

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

Holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and holding a great chain.

What do YOU suppose that chain was for? Maybe walking the dog? Or is it your contention the chain put Satan on a short leash so he could get about like someone with an ankle monitor out of prison..... but then you have that sealed over. So Satan might well have had unlimited movement in the pit... just could not get out.

"into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him"

Now if there was no pit that Satan was thrown in... why was there a key?  Maybe to pick up Satan's belongings at the Greyhound Bus Station?

What do you suppose the reason for sealing the pit over him was for, if this was simply a spiritual binding then Satan could come and go as he pleased? Also if merely spiritual then the chain ?  And a key?

"he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended"

Why do you suppose that he was to be loosed after the 1000 years were ended? What was the purpose? Why allow the nations to be deceived for a short time then never again... as we go on and on waiting.

Why do you suppose Rev 20:7 says

And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth?

It is clear that his demons , through out the NT had freedom even while he had his whatever confinement.  Jesus handled those demons with out trouble.  If he was bound even spiritually without influence, then his Demons really did not need him at all. That is just common logic.

Therefore, there would be no need to say "and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth" because that has been  ongoing with or without his presence.

And again, what is he coming out from if he is only spiritually handicapped, and more importantly DO YOU REALLY THINK that Jesus could have been tempted by SATAN with or without Satanic limitations?.... (those pesky 40 days in Jesus' time)?

I DO NOT...


I will close this with my thoughts on why the 1000 years did not end with the resurrections and ascension

First let us talk about the 1000 years. I use 1000 years because the word millennium is not biblical. I find it bothersome as I do Easter in King Jimmy's translation.

How long is 1000 years you might ask?  At all times one must remember that we are talking of references from the book of Revelation. A book that is highly symbolic.

There can be little doubt that the 1000 years began with the completed work of Christ on earth... not ended with it.

Rev 19 celebrates the triumph of the One who is "King of kings and Lord of lords"

Rev 20 enters in that pesky 1000 years.

But when does it truly  end?

Rev 20 suggests it as continuing until the end of the age, when after being loosened Satan is fee to deceive the nations until the final judgment takes place.

That can only mean that the evil one is bound from deceiving the nations, and bound from directing his demons, until just before the conclusion of salvation history.

So...Why then, does Revelation use the expression a thousand years?

We know that  in terms of biblical numbers, ten represents fullness, and a thousand is ten times ten times ten, hence fullness times fullness times fullness.

A very large number without it  being a precise chronology of human history.

Nowhere else, have I found... (if you do let me know)...  any scripture limiting the binding of Satan's binding to a specific period of time before the end of the age.

Consider there are other places in scripture , however, where the word thousand is used without being a literal number. Such as...Psalm 68:17 , where the chariots of God are said to be "twice ten thousand."

Is it not highly unlikely that God has only twenty thousand active angels at his beck and call?

Afterall,  Jesus on the cross could have called down twelve legions of angels  (Matt 26:53)... which is far more than twenty thousand.

The message is one of fullness, and 1000 years  is the same in Rev 20.

One day, the fullness of the elect will be brought into the church, and then the end will come.

It is not a matter of literally one thousand years, but of God's secret timing as to the gathering of His people into union with the Christ, however long that may take from our human perspective.

DO YOU DISAGREE as we are told in Matt 28: 19  that after Jesus'  crucifixion and resurrection, and immediately before His ascension back to the Father, He commissioned the church to "go  and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"?

They would be able to do this because of Jesus' victory over Satan, who had long blinded the nations, for He told us in Matt 28: 18 , ''All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me'' .

It was at this point that  Satan's illegitimate power over the nations has been wrested from him, and placed into the hands of our legitimate Lord and Savior of the world.

Allowing  the Christian church to do its work. Engaging in successful missions all over the world, bringing the good news of freedom from captivity to those who had long been in chains themselves because of sin and unbelief.

When Jesus purged all of our sins on Calvary, something happened to Satan. The evil one lost his authority to keep people back from God. He was bound by what Jesus did.... Not the other way around.

The question I have is if Satan has been loosed for his short time yet.

I think the answer to that is Yes.

Overall, you did a good job with your post. If I may I want to answer this question:

Quote from: Rella on: Yesterday at 18:34:03Nowhere else, have I found... (if you do let me know)...  any scripture limiting the binding of Satan's binding to a specific period of time before the end of the age.

Later...RB

Quote from: Rella on Sun Jan 23, 2022 - 18:34:03Nowhere else, have I found... (if you do let me know)...  any scripture limiting the binding of Satan's binding to a specific period of time before the end of the age.

2ND THESSALONIANS CHAPTER 2 speaks of the God's Timeline for the NT church briefly and it is there we see where the Mystery of iniquity restraint is removed during the falling away of the worshippers at the NT Temple of God~where the man of sin would sit a reign therein, just as he did when the kingdom of heaven as preached by John the Baptist came in his days by him preparing the way of the promised Messiah. No new thing under the sun just a the wise said three thousand years ago.

This chapter truly fits in perfectly with what is being discussed and should be considered along with other important scriptures we hope to cover over time as the Lord wills. Maybe we will do one verse a day until we are finished with what we desire to cover in this chapter. 

QuoteVerse one~"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of Our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

In verse one Paul is referencing the return of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto him~so, there can be no mistake as to what coming the apostle Paul is speaking about....Jesus coming when every eye shall see him.

Earlier in chapter one of this same letter, he said these words:

Quote from: Paul2nd Thessalonians 1:7-10~"And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

There are some worthy points we need to make concerning Jesus' second and only coming since he left in Acts one.

the Lord Jesus shall be revealed~This coming will be a revelation, not a secret rapture coming, that is taught by so many.

with his mighty angels~literally angels, not ministers, as so many proclaim. Every time the Lord Jesus taught on his second coming, he always mention his holy angels coming with him for the purpose of gathering together the elect from the four winds of heaven. Read the gospel: Matthew 16:27; 24:30,31; etc.

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord~His second coming is a time of revelation and a time of judgment upon the whole world, all that know not God and obey not the gospel.

When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. His coming will be a time when Jesus shall be glorified in his saints, which consist in Gentiles and Jews, the two faithful witnesses of God's truth.

The entire flow and context of chapter of 2nd Thessalonians 2 confirm this. The only question is, #1) when will the second coming presence of the Lord be, and #2) when will the saints be gathered together to meet Him as this verse specifies? The only biblical answer to these questions I believe is, at the end of the world when what is commonly called 'The Rapture' will take place~all the word means is "caught up" and we agree, where we disagree is that it is no secret rapture and there is no time after the resurrection of all folks, both the righteous and the wicked.

And this is also what that first verse of 2nd Thessalonians 2 is speaking about. Christ's coming presence, and our "gathering together" to meet Him. Comparing scripture with scripture, we read in 1st Thessalonians:

Quote from: Paul1st Thessalonians 4:15-17~"For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the Coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. for the Lord Himself shall descend with a shout, and the voice of the Archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Clearly, this is in full agreement with 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2:1. This is the coming presence of the Lord when the saints would be gathered together to meet Him. The two verses use almost the same language of the second coming. It's not talking about 70 A.D., it's not talking about a time when the Romans overran Jerusalem, and it's not talking about a time when Pigs were slaughtered in a Temple as some surmise. By allowing scripture to interpret scripture, we can see that it's parallel language to the second coming of the Lord, and our gathering together to Meet Him.

It never ceases to amaze me how some people take a concise and relatively easy to understand verse (considering the rest of scripture), and by theological osmosis make it appear all over the place, where thirty different people can come to thirty different conclusions, and they all will be considered valid points of view. Many make it so complicated that it's almost as if they want you to think we can't know where the truth really lies so that every idea will be valid.

For example, there are those who claim it's not really speaking about His second coming, they claim it's speaking about a second presence of the Lord which occurred in the past. This theory is usually taught in order to support the Preterist doctrine that Christ returned in 70 A.D. to Jerusalem, gathered the Elect, and fulfilled Matthew chapter 24. The context, content, and all other pertinent scriptures which relate to Christ's coming again, the apostasy, and God's judgments, make it unmistakably clear that this is referring to Christ's second coming presence/revelation at the end of the world. ..which we will see as this study progresses.

Quote from: RB on Tue Jan 25, 2022 - 05:17:04
2ND THESSALONIANS CHAPTER 2 speaks of the God's Timeline for the NT church briefly and it is there we see where the Mystery of iniquity restraint is removed during the falling away of the worshippers at the NT Temple of God~where the man of sin would sit a reign therein, just as he did when the kingdom of heaven as preached by John the Baptist came in his days by him preparing the way of the promised Messiah. No new thing under the sun just a the wise said three thousand years ago.

This chapter truly fits in perfectly with what is being discussed and should be considered along with other important scriptures we hope to cover over time as the Lord wills. Maybe we will do one verse a day until we are finished with what we desire to cover in this chapter. 


In verse one Paul is referencing the return of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto him~so, there can be no mistake as to what coming the apostle Paul is speaking about....Jesus coming when every eye shall see him.

Earlier in chapter one of this same letter, he said these words:  There are some worthy points we need to make concerning Jesus' second and only coming since he left in Acts one.

the Lord Jesus shall be revealed~This coming will be a revelation, not a secret rapture coming, that is taught by so many.

with his mighty angels~literally angels, not ministers, as so many proclaim. Every time the Lord Jesus taught on his second coming, he always mention his holy angels coming with him for the purpose of gathering together the elect from the four winds of heaven. Read the gospel: Matthew 16:27; 24:30,31; etc.

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord~His second coming is a time of revelation and a time of judgment upon the whole world, all that know not God and obey not the gospel.

When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. His coming will be a time where Jesus shall be glorified in his saints, which consist in Gentiles and Jews, the two faithful witnesses of God's truth.

The entire flow and context of chapter of 2nd Thessalonians 2 confirm this. The only question is, #1) when will the second coming presence of the Lord be, and #2) when will the saints be gathered together to meet Him as this verse specifies? The only biblical answer to these questions I believe is, at the end of the world when what is commonly called 'The Rapture' will take place~all the word means is "caught up" and we agree, where we disagree is that it is no secret rapture and there is no time after the resurrection of all folks, both the righteous and the wicked.

And this is also what that first verse of 2nd Thessalonians 2 is speaking about. Christ's coming presence, and our "gathering together" to meet Him. Comparing scripture with scripture, we read in 1st Thessalonians:Clearly, this is in full agreement with 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2:1. This is the coming presence of the Lord when the saints would be gathered together to meet Him. The two verses use almost the same language of the second coming. It's not talking about 70 A.D., it's not talking about a time when the Romans overran Jerusalem, and it's not talking about a time when Pigs were slaughtered in a Temple as some surmise. By allowing scripture to interpret scripture, we can see that it's parallel language to the second coming of the Lord, and our gathering together to Meet Him.

It never ceases to amaze me how some people take a concise and relatively easy to understand verse (considering the rest of scripture), and by theological osmosis make it appear all over the place, where thirty different people can come to thirty different conclusions, and they all will be considered valid points of view. Many make it so complicated that it's almost as if they want you to think we can't know where the truth really lies so that every idea will be valid.

For example, there are those who claim it's not really speaking about His second coming, they claim it's speaking about a second presence of the Lord which occurred in the past. This theory is usually taught in order to support the Preterist doctrine that Christ returned in 70 A.D. to Jerusalem, gathered the Elect, and fulfilled Matthew chapter 24. The context, content, and all other pertinent scriptures which relate to Christ's coming again, the apostasy, and God's judgments, make it unmistakably clear that this is referring to Christ's second coming presence/revelation at the end of the world. ..which we will see as this study progresses.

A verse by verse is a great idea....

HOWEVER  to not be a devil's advocate... because I believe you and I are reasonable close in our beliefs of His 2nd coming, you need to know the verses you provided DO lay groundwork for for that possibility in 70AD. (And,  without comment there could be some that will read  this post and say... "Well, there's the proof I need" and never go farther (Or further?) into the subject.

You  quoted

Quote

QuoteVerse one~"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of Our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

Then commented

In verse one Paul is referencing the return of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto him~so, there can be no mistake as to what coming the apostle Paul is speaking about....Jesus coming when every eye shall see him.

Before going on further people need to realize that Paul's use of the our had nothing to do with you or me... it had to do with the people he was writing to and himself. ( The new  'Christians' of the day)

Either
1. Translations came up short, or

2. Paul thought the time was closer then it was for His 2nd coming

I vote the later because of the  bolded red words below.

You commented on

QuoteQuote from: Paul
1st Thessalonians 4:15-17~"For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the Coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. for the Lord Himself shall descend with a shout, and the voice of the Archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Clearly, this is in full agreement with 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2:1. This is the coming presence of the Lord when the saints would be gathered together to meet Him. The two verses use almost the same language of the second coming. It's not talking about 70 A.D., it's not talking about a time when the Romans overran Jerusalem, and it's not talking about a time when Pigs were slaughtered in a Temple as some surmise. By allowing scripture to interpret scripture, we can see that it's parallel language to the second coming of the Lord, and our gathering together to Meet Him.

However.... can you not see why some could misinterpret what Paul was saying because these definitely suggest Paul would be alive... as they , in that day... would be? And that God directed temple destruction surly must have seemed like an Armagedon to those who experienced it.

I am all for doing a verse by verse. Of this book and any other in our search for knowledge and truth ... but you have to read the words and understand why others could see them differently.

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Mon Jan 17, 2022 - 09:22:38
4WD, I am simply quoting from Hebrews 7:12.  "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."  This was referring to the change from the Levitical priesthood over to the priesthood according to the order of Melchizedek.  This was the change from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant in Christ's blood.

Yes, but this verse isn't an abrogation of the entire Torah. 

The (lowercase-l) law for the making of Levitical priests was done away with. 

The (capital-L) Law remains, but in the hands of the Melchizedek priesthood, which actually existed before the other.

Jarrod

Quote from: Rella on Tue Jan 25, 2022 - 08:47:38Before going on further people need to realize that Paul's use of the our had nothing to do with you or me... it had to do with the people he was writing to and himself. ( The new  'Christians' of the day)

Either
1. Translations came up short, or

2. Paul thought the time was closer then it was for His 2nd coming

I vote the later because of the  bolded red words below.

Rella, I respectfully disagree, and here's why: Paul was writings to those beloved of God which would include you and me and every saint that has and would read these words;

Quote2nd Thessalonians 2:13,14~"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Let me supply you with an example that Christ used:

Quote from: JESUS CHRISTMark 10:3~"And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?"

Question for you: "Did Moses actually say and write those words to those folks of Jesus' day? No, yet Being inspired by God what he wrote was for every generation of Jews that would ever read what Moses said and recorded for them to do.

One more of many we could provide:

Quote from: PaulRomans 10:19~ But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you."

First Moses said this to Israel and then all the prophets followed, and Both Moses' words and the prophets were for ALL Israel to hear even though it was fulfilled in the first century. Btw, it is still for Israel today as to why God turned to the Gentiles.......from man's perspective even though it was part of His eternal plan from eternity past~to prove to man Salvation from sin and condemnation is all of grace.   

VERSE TWO~

Quote"That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of the Lord is at hand."

The focus of this study is more to establish a biblical timeline as to when Satan was loose from his blinding~niether is our focus at the moment to condemn preterism, but I feel I must briefly address the teaching that this verse alludes to the Church of Thessalonica believing that Christ had already come. They come to this conclusion based on erroneous assumptions, one of which is their handling of the words "at hand"~which means impending or soon. The problem is, this word can also be used to signify something which has come, or which is present, or, at hand in comparison to the speed of time moving so quickly. And this is why they make the error of thinking this can mean the Church thought Christ had already come. But when you read that verse with no preconceived ideas about what it means, and in the light of all other verses, we see that there is no possibility that it means that. And it is in error on multiple levels. Again:

Quote from: THE HOLY GHOST2nd Thessalonians 2:2~"That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

Why would Paul be writing a (letter) to them denying that Christ had already come? ..indeed why would the Church ask if Christ had already come and gathered the Church unto him? This was not the false doctrine of Hymenaeus and Philetus which declared the resurrection past, it was an idea they had of the Lord's soon coming, and that they'd be gathering together to meet Him. Exactly as the text illustrates.

Faithfully going over that verse we find not a single word that says (either explicitly or implicitly) that the Church at Thessalonica was afraid that Christ had already come. Did they fear Christ already come had taken the Church up and left "them" (and Paul) there at Thessalonica? They were certainly made well aware that when Christ returned it would be to take them up to be with Him into the Kingdom of Heaven. How could they think it had already occurred? Just reading this seems unbelievable. Did God inspire Paul writing that the Church at Thessalonica was afraid that Christ had already come and taken the Church? No, they are the Church! Did they fear they weren't? And are we to incredibly believe that the Church at Thessalonica didn't know what "the day of the Lord" was, and so thought it came and they missed it? Not at all. In fact, Paul told them in 1st Thessalonians that they were Children of the Light and that day (the day of the Lord) would not overtake them as a thief in the night. So why would they then ask if it had? The whole idea that they thought the day of the Lord had come, is built upon theological tunnel vision and exegetical misdirection. It is not something read in scripture, it is something "read into" scripture, which many are famous for doing so.

These verses are speaking of the misapprehension of the Church as they thought Christ would be returning soon that they would be gathered together to meet Him. The same righteous apprehension that we see every single prophet or righteous man in the old testament have at the presence of God. It is normal apprehension to know you'll be standing in the very Presence of God soon. It is the reverent fear of God.

Paul is explaining to the Church, don't be shaken or troubled in mind, that the day of the Lord was at hand. In other words, he is saying that it isn't at hand or soon coming. This is an 'important' point. A study of the term will show that The day of Christ (The Lord) is a reference to judgment day, not 70 A.D. He is telling them in no uncertain terms that it isn't at hand, and that it will not arrive immediately as they were told it would. And in fact, (verse 3) they should not be deceived by any man that it would, it would not come until certain things prophesied have taken place. This should alert anyone to the error of those who are claiming that the "day of the Lord" he was talking about was already there, had already happened, or was soon to come in 70 A.D. ~as a matter of truth we would not even have to mention 70 A.D. if some false prophet had not started that theory years ago.

If I were on an island with nothing but the written word of God and began to study the scriptures I would NEVER even have a slight thought about 70 A.D. for there is not one word in the NT that would cause my mind to go into that direction, not one.

It is clear that Paul is telling them, you hear it's coming soon, but it isn't coming soon, and that it would not arrive until certain things took place. Namely, the signs which Christ spoke of foreshadowing His second advent. He asks them earnestly that they not be soon shaken. Why would He tell them not to be soon shaken, if they were already shaken that it had already passed? On the contrary, he is telling them that they don't even have to worry or be troubled in mind about the Lord "at hand" (soon) coming. It is not coming soon, and not until there first is apostasy in the Holy Temple of God.

Does this language and context lead us to believe that the day would not come in their lifetime? It would certainly appear so, wouldn't it? He would certainly not be telling them don't worry about receiving an letter from us, or be troubled in mind about the day of the Lord being at hand, if it was indeed "at hand", now would he? And a letter from him saying that it had already come is ridiculous, isn't it? That comment itself proves he wasn't talking about a belief it had already happened. He's telling them they don't even have to worry or be troubled about it coming soon, or being at hand. You won't be receiving a messages from us saying the Lord is coming soon, because it won't be coming until the prophesy of apostasy, or the falling away of the Church takes place first. That's exactly what Paul is saying. How some theologians teach this in a way that (they theorize) it actually means Christ had come, or was coming in 70 A.D., is dubious at best. There isn't anything in this chapter that would lead anyone to that conclusion without outside influence. If he meant 70 A.D., then he's contradicting himself. For the time "was" at hand, and yet he'd be declaring they shouldn't think so.

The truth is, there is nothing here to suggest such an interpretation. And only those predisposed to believe this would even think of such an understanding of this text . In other words, you'd have to be specifically directed to this, or specifically looking for such an interpretation. You'd have to 'read it into' the text in order to see it there. Because it's certainly not written that Christ came in 70 A.D., or that the Thessalonians thought that they had missed Christ's coming and their gathering together to meet Him. It's a disjointed understanding of the text.

The overview of verses one and two are that there was a misapprehension in the Church where they thought the Lord's second coming was at hand, and God inspires Paul to write a letter to remove their misapprehension on the subject.

Quote from: RB on Thu Jan 27, 2022 - 05:02:42
VERSE TWO~
The focus of this study is more to establish a biblical timeline as to when Satan was loose from his blinding~niether is our focus at the moment to condemn preterism, but I feel I must briefly address the teaching that this verse alludes to the Church of Thessalonica believing that Christ had already come. They come to this conclusion based on erroneous assumptions, one of which is their handling of the words "at hand"~which means impending or soon. The problem is, this word can also be used to signify something which has come, or which is present, or, at hand in comparison to the speed of time moving so quickly. And this is why they make the error of thinking this can mean the Church thought Christ had already come. But when you read that verse with no preconceived ideas about what it means, and in the light of all other verses, we see that there is no possibility that it means that. And it is in error on multiple levels.


These verses are speaking of the misapprehension of the Church as they thought Christ would be returning soon that they would be gathered together to meet Him. The same righteous apprehension that we see every single prophet or righteous man in the old testament have at the presence of God. It is normal apprehension to know you'll be standing in the very Presence of God soon. It is the reverent fear of God.

The overview of verses one and two are that there was a misapprehension in the Church where they thought the Lord's second coming was at hand, and God inspires Paul to write a letter to remove their misapprehension on the subject.

Yes, I am in agreement with most of what is said as it follows what I have read that some in Thessalonica were deliberately misleading the new believers, even to the point of false teachers forging letters to make them look as if they had come from Paul. (If verse by verse continues we will see Paul's concern and addressing this in 2 Thes 3:17 ... but I am getting ahead of things...so sorry)

So he felt it incumbent to write the 2nd letter ( within months of the first ) and it is also note worthy to know that the time of this letter is around 51AD.

As you continue your explanation by verse everyone should keep that in mind.

To RB and Rella,

As Jarrod has mentioned before, the words "AT HAND" do NOT mean "soon".  They mean that something is presently in place.  This applied to Paul explaining to the Thessalonians that the Day of the Lord was NOT "at hand" (or presently occurring for them) until the Man of Lawlessness was manifested.  They were not to believe anyone telling them that the Day of the Lord was PRESENTLY HAPPENING among them until an "apostasia" had happened and that Man of Lawlessness had come first, which as of 2 Thessalonians' composition around AD 51, had not yet happened.   This does not refute an AD 66 coming of the Man of Lawlessness and an "apostasia" of a national rebellion breaking out under the Zealots, nor does it refute an AD 70 coming of Christ.   

We have plenty of examples of what "at hand" means in context.  Christ in Mark 14:42-43 told the disciples in the Garden of Gethsemane that "he that betrayeth me is AT HAND.  And IMMEDIATELY, while he yet spake, cometh Judas, one of the twelve..." Nothing about this means "soon".  It meant a situation presently in place. 

Another example is in Jeremiah 23:23 with God questioning his people through Jeremiah saying, "Am I a God AT HAND, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off?"  God is not only presently near, and observing events, but He will also be present during distant events or distant locations also. 

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Thu Jan 27, 2022 - 08:51:28
To RB and Rella,

As Jarrod has mentioned before, the words "AT HAND" do NOT mean "soon".  They mean that something is presently in place.  This applied to Paul explaining to the Thessalonians that the Day of the Lord was NOT "at hand" (or presently occurring for them) until the Man of Lawlessness was manifested.  They were not to believe anyone telling them that the Day of the Lord was PRESENTLY HAPPENING among them until an "apostasia" had happened and that Man of Lawlessness had come first, which as of 2 Thessalonians' composition around AD 51, had not yet happened.   This does not refute an AD 66 coming of the Man of Lawlessness and an "apostasia" of a national rebellion breaking out under the Zealots, nor does it refute an AD 70 coming of Christ.   

Exactly what I have said from day one. Something presently in place.

You are the one who consistently pulls the "soon" card emphasize your beliefs.

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Thu Jan 27, 2022 - 08:51:28
To RB and Rella,

As Jarrod has mentioned before, the words "AT HAND" do NOT mean "soon".  They mean that something is presently in place.  This applied to Paul explaining to the Thessalonians that the Day of the Lord was NOT "at hand" (or presently occurring for them) until the Man of Lawlessness was manifested.  They were not to believe anyone telling them that the Day of the Lord was PRESENTLY HAPPENING among them until an "apostasia" had happened and that Man of Lawlessness had come first, which as of 2 Thessalonians' composition around AD 51, had not yet happened.   This does not refute an AD 66 coming of the Man of Lawlessness and an "apostasia" of a national rebellion breaking out under the Zealots, nor does it refute an AD 70 coming of Christ.   

We have plenty of examples of what "at hand" means in context.  Christ in Mark 14:42-43 told the disciples in the Garden of Gethsemane that "he that betrayeth me is AT HAND.  And
IMMEDIATELY, while he yet spake, cometh Judas, one of the twelve..." Nothing about this means "soon".  It meant a situation presently in place.

This is correct for the New Testament.  The Greek translated "at hand" literally means "has arrived."

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Thu Jan 27, 2022 - 08:51:28
Another example is in Jeremiah 23:23 with God questioning his people through Jeremiah saying, "Am I a God AT HAND, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off?"  God is not only presently near, and observing events, but He will also be present during distant events or distant locations also.

This is from the Old Testament.  "At hand" here is translated from Hebrew; not Greek, and the word usage is not consistent between the two Testaments.

Hi Jarrod,

Both you and I acknowledge that word derivations and usage are different between the two Testaments, but I included this OT example for RB, simply because the KJV he prefers uses the very same phrase in both places.  The interpreted sense is the same meaning.  And as you know, there are plenty more scripture examples of "at hand" meaning "has arrived" that I could have mentioned.  But I'm posting hurriedly, because I am behind schedule in the workroom. 


For Rella,

Please don't confuse the "at hand" phrase with the two other different time-relevant terms that are scattered throughout the NT.  I believe there have been posts before that commented on the Greek "tachei" (meaning shortly or quickly), "mello" (meaning about to do something), and "engus" (meaning presently at hand in time or place).  It is the "mello" term and its derivatives that indicate something happening "soon".  And there are plenty of these "mello" examples related to Christ's second coming and a resurrection in that first-century generation.   This is not a "card" I am pulling out.  The words are there in the Greek text, and the language speaks for itself.  It is clearly defined usage of language terms, and they are not of my invention.     

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Thu Jan 27, 2022 - 08:51:28As Jarrod has mentioned before, the words "AT HAND" do NOT mean "soon".  They mean that something is presently in place. 

agreed

Quote from: 3 Resurrections Reply #165 on: Yesterday at 08:51:28This applied to Paul explaining to the Thessalonians that the Day of the Lord was NOT "at hand" (or presently occurring for them) until the Man of Lawlessness was manifested. 

Not quite true, enough to miss lead a person searching for truth.

Briefly, for now, I will cover verse three next in-depth where we shall see the truth of what you saying.

The man of sin, or, the abomination of desolation (one and the same) spoken of by both Daniel and Christ, will be manifest first before the coming of Jesus Christ, yet the full manifestation of the man of sin will come to its apex and THEN Christ will come~that secret time period is hidden from, know only by the Godhead, not even angels know. That's that period of time between 1290 and 1335.

Quote from: DANIEL THE PROPHETDaniel 12:11,12~"And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

OR,

Quote from: JESUS CHRISTMatthew 24:13~"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

That is the period of time of the great tribulation period spoken of in Matthew 24 that is totally spiritual in nature. Selah

Take the time to go here and look at the chart of reply #9 http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/end-times-forum/robycop3~who-is-the-antichrist/msg1055170346/#msg1055170346   Also Reply #22: http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/preterist-forum/shamed/msg1055164753/#msg1055164753 

VERSE THREE of 2nd Thessalonians 2

Quote"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."

When speaking of "that day", Paul gave the very same warning that the Master of all teachers gave concerning the very same subject~the day of Christ's coming to gather together the church unto himself, of both OT and NT saints.

Paul said: "Let no man deceive you by any means"~Christ said this before he began his last lengthly discourse:

Quote from: THE MASTERMatthew 24:4,5~"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."

In Paul's and John's day there were many antichrist (man of sin/abomination of desolation all three one and the same):

Quote from: John 1st John 2:18~"Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

In the latter days of the last times (no more dispensations to follow) false prophets shall be greatly multiple, more than anytime in this world's history~that is the very reason believers must take heed that no man deceives us by any means....... those days will be an exhibition of so-called miracles and signs and wonders the which, if it were possible, could deceive the very elect, but thanks be unto God~ they will be protected by the seal of God upon them, or else they would be deceived in the days leading up to Christ's second coming.

"for that day shall not come"~The only day under consideration is clear~the day of Crist's second coming and "our gathering" together unto him.

Paul said that day shall not come......." except " some important pieces of the true prophecy Bible puzzle must occur first before Jesus' second coming and before we can see the complete picture of the spiritual puzzle of God's timeline on Jesus Christ's second coming.

"except there come a falling away first"~Obviously there were those in Thessalonica who were prophesying to the Church that the DAY OF THE LORD (His coming presence) was imminent. But Paul is telling them that this is not so. And he instructs them that they not be 'deceived' by these false prophets. He declares that the Lord's coming was not at hand because there has to first come a falling away from the faith by the Church.

Paul is prophesying that the professing Church (which is the visible Holy Temple of God) will separate themselves from God by forsaking His laws and doing whatever seems right in their own eyes. Being seduced by deceivers (verse 10), these people are committing 'spiritual fornication' or harlotry against God. This is manifested by their having "another" to rule over the Church (verse 4). The term God uses for man forsaking Him to serve a false god is "Abomination"~that He will make desolate in His own time. Serving other gods in the Holy Temple of God is an abomination that will leave the congregation desolate. The same as it did Israel, the Old Testament congregation of God~history shall repeat itself with the Gentiles following Israel of old.

In regards to this Abomination of Desolation, there is a school of thought that this actually refers to A.D. 70, but the literal earthly Temple in A.D. 70 was neither of God, nor was it Holy that it could fall from that plane to abomination. On the contrary, it was already the fallen Temple of those who rejected Christ. It could not have been God's Holy Temple at that time. This temple made with hands fell at the Cross and ceased to be a representation of Christ (who fulfilled it). And the 'building again' of the Holy Temple was in Christ. He was made the Chief corner stone of that rebuilding. The New Testament congregations (Churches) are now the Holy Temple of God, built upon that solid foundation.

Thus it is in this New Testament representation of the Holy Temple of God where people will separate themselves from the law of Christ. And such a falling away from the faith can only occur at the loosing of Satan, who was bound at the cross. And that most certainly did not occur in A.D. 70 in a Jewish Temple which had long ago ceased to be the Holy Temple of God. This departing or forsaking the true God at the revealing of Satan, is because the Churches will be led of their own lusts and deceived of the devil, that they won't recognize they are serving this false god. That indeed is the "nature" of his deception. Remember Jesus said:

Quote from: JESUS CHRISTMatthew 24:5~"For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

I was listening to last night "The Voice of Victory" Kenneth Copeland's network whose slogan is "Jesus is Lord" and guess what HE IS, just like Christ said~shall come in my name saying I am Christ, and Jesus IS the Christ~yet they deny him in doctrines and deeds! Their god is $$$$$$. if you look at their ministry it is a WONDER and almost a miracle that these men like Copeland, Swaggart, Oral Robert, and many, many thousand more have built for themselves a small little enterprise of wealth with schools, hospitals, private jets, and the most expensive cars, and houses, clothing, etc., etc.!

Quote1st Timothy 4:1~"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and Doctrines of Devils;

Does the Spirit speak this expressly to you? Because it speaks it expressly to me! It spoke it expressly to the Apostle Paul who penned it. It says that in the latter times there was going to be those who are seduced by evil spirits and doctrines of devils, who would depart from the faith. Of course, this is in perfect agreement with 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2~ (also see: 2nd Timothy 3:4-5)  of Satan through his ministers by false doctrines and miraculous lies (2nd Thessalonians 2:9), that there come a falling away or departing from the faith (apostasy). 1st Timothy 4 says this would happen at the latter times, just as 2nd Thessalonians 2 says it happens just before the coming of the Lord and our gathering together unto Him. It all fits perfectly and consistently because it's the unadulterated Word of God. Compare scripture with scripture and the picture of the end-time events are made manifest.

There are those who insist that 2nd Thessalonians 2 speaks about a time in the past, and not the second coming of the Lord when we will be gathering together to meet Him. In the face of what God's Word clearly says, can we dare depend on ourselves for truth? This type of error is exactly why the unfaithful Church is deceived at this appointed time. As verse 10 of 2nd Thessalonians tells us, they were deceived because they would not receive the love of truth that they might be saved, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Their pleasure is in doing what is right in their own eyes, and not what is the law of God. That's the lusts of unrighteousness. Their pleasure is from thinking highly of themselves, and cleverly coming up with new ways to wrest (twist) scripture so that it 'appears' to agree with any doctrines they can dream up. This is the pleasure in unrighteousness that is the reason they are deceived. It was by their own stubbornness and pride in rejecting God's Word of Truth. And this unrighteousness gives place to the man of sin Because of his lack of love for God's laws, he brings about this apostasy, and Satan is uncovered or revealed.

that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition~Ill come back and finish verse three shortly keep from this being too long.

Quote2nd Thessalonians 2:3~Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that Man of Sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Many Theologians have privately interpreted this man of sin to be everything from The Pope, Hitler, Stalin, to a new born devil man himself. It makes for entertaining movie fodder, and for intriguing stories around the campfire, but as far as Biblical Theology, it's all worth nothing. There is a better way to determine who this passage is referring to. How about we let the scriptures themselves tell us. It is a man who refuses to be subject to the laws of God! This is the definition of the lawless man. He is a transgressor of the laws of God.

It seems clear to me and should to every reader that these verses (3-8) are not referring to one particular man, but to man, "in particular", Man who being led by the spirit of Satan, forsakes the Lord to transgress the law of God in the Holy Temple. This is the prophecy of the time preceding the second advent of the Lord, when man refuses to be subject to the authority of God's Law, and will instead exalt "himself" to rule in God's Holy Temple. In other words, forsake the law of God for his own precepts and rules and authority. A time when iniquity will abound as it ushers in the return of the Lord. Matthew 24 speaks of this time as one of "Great tribulation" for believers. This would follow, for the believers are those who will "Keep" the Law of God faithfully, and so will be persecuted by the man of lawlessness.

Quote from: JESUS CHRISTMatthew 24:12~"And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold".

Man of sin is a collective noun~meaning ALL who serve their own lust instead of submitting God's word. Let me break it down this way: MAN of sin~man OF SIN...it is ALL men who serve their own lust other than submitting to the word of God.

Man of war is not a single person who goes to war, but ALL men who go forth in combat with other soldiers. Man of God is not s single person who serves God and does his will~but ALL who are called of God and are faithful in that calling. The man of sin is also called the son of perdition for that is his fate in serving his own lust~eternal destruction in the lake of fire.

This is a time when the transgression of Abomination occurs and many of the Church are deceived by false prophets ruled by Satan. Man of sin/lawlessness who sits to rule in the Holy Temple of God (Church) as if he was God. Iniquity shall "abound", and the love of God shall grow cold. In fact, right here in 2nd Thessalonians 2:6-8 it tells us this iniquity was being restrained or held down (when the text was written) until a time when He who restrains it is taken out of the midst. In other words, iniquity (Lawlessness, Sin, Wickedness, Transgression) was being held down, but the prophecy was that at some time in the future (spoken of as when he who restrains it would be taken out of the midst) this iniquity would be loosed and then the lawless man revealed. Many will be deceived by this iniquity and it gives the reason as, "Because they refused to receive the love of truth! -2nd Thessalonians 2:10"~ They don't want to be obedient to the law of God, therefore they will not receive God's word and are deceived by the words of man (lawless man) in the Holy Temple of God. Man saying God declares you can divorce. Man saying God declares Women can rule and have authority over men in the Churches. Man saying that God declares Homosexuality is not an abomination. Man saying God declares abortion is not murder, etc., etc. This is man of sin/lawlessness who is ruling as God in the Holy Temple. Remember, after the cross, the Holy Temple was no longer a building in Jerusalem. It is either one of three things.

#1.The Lord Jesus Christ
#2.The Body of a believer
#3.The Church.

Those are the only three things possible after the cross to be prophesied as the Holy Temple of God. You cannot have a "shadow" which has been fulfilled by Christ, returning as the Holy Temple again. Therefore, the building in Jerusalem no longer qualified to be prophesied as the Holy Temple of God after the cross. It is a shadow that was fulfilled.

So since abomination cannot stand in Christ, nor in the body of a believer where Christ dwells and will never leave nor forsake them, it can only stand in the churches. You see the Holy Temple is built not only with Gold, silver, and precious stones, but also with wood, hay and stubble. i.e., all in the Churches are not Saved.

Quote1st Corinthians 3:10~"According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is."

Jesus is that Cornerstone of this holy temple and we are built upon Him, but all are not precious building material. These who are wood, hay, and stubble are unfaithful in the Church. Because of these, near the second advent, abomination will stand in the Holy Temple as the Churches fall away.

It is clear this coming time when iniquity will abound (come to the full or multiply), coincides with Satan being loosed (Revelation 20). Man, being deceived by the spirit of antichrist coming with all power, and signs and Lying wonders, will think to change times and laws and rule as if he were God in the Temple. As Judas was one of the 12, yet betrayed our Lord, so many false prophets and false teachers will deceive many, and many will betray Christ in the Church. When man sets himself up as the authority in the church, the law replacing God's Word, this is abomination. We have a false Christ, and this abomination leads to it's Desolation.

The "mystery of inquity" was already at work at the time Paul was writing this (2nd Thessalonians  2:7), but it was being restrained that it could not come to the full until it's time. Just as we can read the Antichrist was already in the world at the time of Paul and John (1st John 2:18), but would also come in the future in its FULNESS. It all refers to the Spirit of Satan who indwells "man" and deceives him and causes him to fall away from the law of God. Since the cross, this (The Great Tribulation period) has not been allowed to occur, for Christ restrains it as He was building His Church. But near the return of the Lord (verse 1-4) then this Apostasy must take place. As it is written, Judgment must begin at the House of God. Christ Restrained it by the Cross. Bound Satan! Verse seven refers to that, saying it would continue to be restrained until He be taken out of the midst. When a church (The Holy Temple of God) falls away from the faith, it has no Spirit of God in the midst (i.e., where two or three are gathered together in My name, there am I in the midst~Matthew 18:20). When the Spirit is no more in the midst of a Church, iniquity abounds. Apostasy sets in and man rules in the place of God by following his own laws instead of God's. This is what 2nd Thessalonians 2 speaks about.

Simply put, the man of sin is the man of sin. Not an individual, but man of sin. Just as I would say the man of lawfulness or faithfulness worships in the Temple. It's not a reference to one single man, but to the man who is faithful or follows the laws of God. Likewise, the man of sin/lawlessness is just the opposite! Any betrayer of Christ, just as Judas was deceived of Satan to betray Christ. Any false teachers that seek to establish themselves as authority "over" the teaching of God, abandoning His Word for their own private interpretations, this is the man of sin/lawlessness. We are seeing this falling away right now in the Churches. There are many Churches today ruled by the man of lawlessness instead of God. Not a few, many! These are those who make up their own rules and laws to govern themselves, rather than humbly receive God's laws. And can the Coming of the lord be far off? even so, Come Lord Jesus!

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Thu Jan 27, 2022 - 11:44:25

For Rella,

Please don't confuse the "at hand" phrase with the two other different time-relevant terms that are scattered throughout the NT.  I believe there have been posts before that commented on the Greek "tachei" (meaning shortly or quickly), "mello" (meaning about to do something), and "engus" (meaning presently at hand in time or place).  It is the "mello" term and its derivatives that indicate something happening "soon".  And there are plenty of these "mello" examples related to Christ's second coming and a resurrection in that first-century generation.   This is not a "card" I am pulling out.  The words are there in the Greek text, and the language speaks for itself.  It is clearly defined usage of language terms, and they are not of my invention. 

NO I am not confusing anything,

I am well aware what Greek verses use mello and its varients.

I have 2 definitions on the laptops...

Definition:

to be about
to be on the point of doing or suffering something
to intend, have in mind, think to

The NAS new Greek Lexicon word study lists the assortment of translations to be about 30, as follows.

almost 1,  am about 2,  certainly 1,  come 12,  delay 1,  future 1,  going 19,  intend 1,  intending 8,  later 1,  must 1,  next* 1, point 1,  propose 1,  ready 1,  things to come 3,  will 6,  will certainly 1,  would 3,  would live...thereafter 1,  would certainly 1

Further are the books and number of times listed

Matthew9 ... Mark2 ... Luke12 .... John9 ..... Acts31 .... Romans4.... 1 Corinthians1 .... Galatians1 ... Ephesians1 .... Colossians1 ... 1 Thessalonians1 ... 1 Timothy3 .... Hebrews8 ... 2 Peter2   and not least Revelation9 ...  A t otal of 94

And a further definition

Definition

to be about
to be on the point of doing or suffering something
to intend, have in mind, think to

King James has the word usage 110 times.

shall 25, should 20, would 9, to come 9, will 7, things to come 4, not translated 3, miscellaneous 33

But that is not what this thread is about and we should get back OT and address these another time.

Within this thread you have been concentrating on Rev 12:12  and Rev 20:3 and 7 and excluding 4-6

Quote from: 3 Resurrections on Sat Jan 01, 2022 - 10:47:20

Compare this loosing of Satan in Revelation 20:3 and 7 to what John wrote elsewhere about Satan's loosing on earth.  He claimed in Revelation 12:12 that Satan had already come down to the earth with great anger, knowing that his "SHORT TIME" of operating in this world would not last for long.  If John said that Satan was ALREADY loosed into the world for that same "SHORT TIME", (the "LITTLE SEASON" at the millennium's end), then this tells us that the millennium was already over and done with by the time John was writing Revelation.

Rev 12:12 in the Greek interlinear states

Because of this rejoice, the heavens and those in them camping. Woe to those inhabiting the earth and the sea, because he has come down the Devil to you having wrath great, knowing that a short ( oligon ) time (kairon) he has.

Before we get to Rev 20:3 we need to start with Rev 20:1

Again I am using KJV ONLY ( my Greek interlinear) because there are those who will not read any other.

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

NOTE: this was after Satan was cast out of heaven in Rev 12;12 for Rev 12:9 tells us.... 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

NOTE: John saw an angel come down from heaven. That would be down to earth. And this angel brought with him the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

This was because Satan was no longer in heaven at this point.

vs 3 3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Interlinear translation of vs 3:
And he cast him into the abyss, and shut him in, and sealed over him,

NOTE: Satan was not free to roam the earth, even with limited powers.

cont.
that he could not deceive the nations anymore until are ended the thousand years. And after these things it is necessary for him to be loosed for a little (mikron) time

Rev 20:7
KJ And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Interlinear

And whenever may end the 1000 years, ..(YES>>> IT SAYS WHENEVER) ... will be loosed the Satan out of the prison of him,

There is nowhere in the verses of the chapters that you have selected that use mello or any derivative.

But your selection of verses sure has firmed up in my mine that the 1000 years did not and could not have
ended with the Resurrections and Ascension.

Thank you 

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The overview of verse three is that it is an exhortation to the Church that they not be deceived by any man that the coming of Christ is at hand. It is an illustration that they shouldn't expect Christ's coming, because there were certain signs or events which have to take place first. Namely, a great falling away or apostasy in the Church, and the removal of the restraint which held down the man of sin (as we'll see later). God declares that this power of Satan to rule in the Holy Temple, from a first-century vantage point, was yet to be "revealed" .  This is confirmation that the end time forsaking of God (as prophesied by both Daniel and Christ) is a sign that must first take place before any future coming presence of Christ where every eye shall behold him. The Apostle Paul is correcting the false impression that the Thessalonians had in believing that the coming of Christ was imminent. Paul had told them of these signs previously while with them (verse 5), but now he writes to more fully expound upon these end-time events.

I'll start verse four and make two posts out of that verse.

Quote2nd Thessalonians 2:4~"Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he, as god sitteth in the Temple of God, shewing himself that he is god."

This man of sin (transgressor of God's laws and doctrines) has been pondered, interpreted, and alleged to be every character from Judas Iscariot, Nero, the Pope, Mussolini, Napoleon, Adolf Hitler and a few others we could add. But speculations and guesswork are not the correct methods of sound hermeneutics. Carefully considering what the scriptures say is paramount to our understanding of them. First of all, we know by the text exactly in what time period this will take place. Its timeline is just before the coming of the Lord, and our gathering together to meet Him (-verse 1). Second, we know this evil will be taking place in the Holy Temple of God and from there through the whole world (-verse 4). And so the logical question is, who is the lawless man who will sit to rule in the Holy Temple of God at this time, and how can that be? The simple answer is, "he is exactly what the text says he is." In other words, he is the "man of sin". This speaks of the man who transgresses the laws and doctrines of God. Sin is the transgression of the law of God. And not the 10 commandments only, but any and all of what God commands and teaches in His Holy word. That in a nutshell is the biblical definition of sin. The point here is that, the man of transgressions in the Holy Temple is nothing more than what that passage says he is. He is the man that transgresses the law and teaches false doctrines, and who takes a seat to rule in God's Holy Temple. Any man who is deceived by Satan to forsake God's laws/doctrines and sit to rule himself in God's Temple, is the man of sin. Just as man is doing in the Churches today, ruling as if they are God, through the spirit of Satan. This is an Abomination in God's sight. This prophesied man is not a single supernatural anti-Christ in human form. He is not Satan incarnate the super being, and he is not the Pope, nor any man in particular. He is the man of sin, period. In other words, lawless man as he forsakes God's laws and his truths, to be a law in and of himself and rule in the House of the Lord (Church) where God alone should rule. He is governing by his own rules and teachings and by what seems right in his own eyes. From the very beginning, in the garden of Eden, man has sought to be in a position equal with God. In his arrogance, man often thinks that it is his own 'right' to decide what is good and evil. He doesn't want God's will to be done, he wants his own will done in God's name. And so he forsakes the word of God for humanistic reasoning, thus becoming the lawless man, or the man of sin.

Those who think that Satan will come to earth as one man, haven't really read scripture very carefully. God's Word has never said that. Satan is a spirit, not a man. He has been around a long time and doesn't need to indwell 'one man' to work his evil in the world. He works his evil by dwelling in many men as the spirit of disobedience (Ephesians 2:2), making an army of lawless men to war against the Saints. He makes his abode with, and deceives any unsaved man. The spirit of Antichrist proper is Satan, but the working of antichrist is manifest in the heresy (1st John 2:18-22) of men who serve him.

Quote from: THE HOLY GHOSTRomans 6:16~ "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

Men are servants to him whose works they do, and to whose spirit they obey. in other words, the spirit of Satan rules in the Holy Temple through sinful men. The fact is, if you have a man who has been deceived of Satan, ruling a Church, then you have the man of sin/lawlessness ruling that Temple. In actuality, we don't have to look any further than the very words there in the verse to discover who it is. Many of today's Theologians are looking for intricate and politically complex interpretations, and so the more curious and intriguing the interpretation, the better. But the truth is much more studied and Biblical. It is the man ...of sin. Anyone whom Satan uses to attack the Church from within, is a son of perdition, a child of the devil, and the man of lawlessness in the temple. Likewise, anyone whom God uses as a messenger of the gospel is a Son of God, and a Man of Lawfulness in the temple. Two distinct spirits warring for the souls of men. Believers with the Spirit of Christ, and unbelievers with the spirit of Antichrist. One man sinless, and another man of sin. There is nothing really difficult in comprehending this Biblical principle. That's why God tells us to test the spirits whether they be of God or of antichrist (1st John 4:1-3). What spirit we have, determines if we are the man of sin or lawlessness, or the man of lawfulness, who in Christ is without sin.

Quote2nd Peter 3:16~"And also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the scriptures, unto their own destruction."

Here God is telling us there are things in the scriptures that are hard to be understood, and that there are some who call themselves Christian that are unlearned in the scripture, and so they twist these scriptures to get make them appear to mean whatever they want. They wrest these things "to their own ruin or destruction".

Again, Jesus says in

QuoteMatthew 7:13~ " ..broad is the way that leadeth unto destruction."

Those on the broad way are those who are lawless, and those on the narrow way are those who obey the law of God.

The narrow way is the way of lawfulness, the broad the way of destruction. One a child of perdition and one a child of God. 2nd Peter 2:1 says the wicked bring in destroying, or damnable heresies into the Church. These are the lawless of the Church, sons or children of perdition or ruin who forsake God's word for Heresy. And so this should give us a better Biblical guide to what is in view in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2. The son of perdition is the son of destruction, or literally the son of total ruin and wasting because he is a man of sin. The children of the devil or the children of God. One the lawful man, the other the lawless man. One the man which cannot sin, the other the man of sin.
   
Ultimately Satan is the great destroyer that brings to ruin. He is the King of destruction [apollyon] (Revelation 9:11) and those who are of Satan are sons of destruction. They destroy the laws/truths of God in the Holy Place, while the sons of God keep the laws of God faithfully (1st John 2:3-5). The Bible, being its own interpreter, is where we will find the interpretations of these scriptures. We won't find them in the world, or in the fanciful imaginations of man.

Moreover, when we search the scriptures, we find that there is only one other place in the entire Bible where the exact phrase 'son of perdition' is mentioned. Not coincidentally, that man was a member of the early church. And he also betrayed the cause of Christ from within, as he came under the power and deception of Satan. This was Judas Iscariot. His very name implies part of the Church. Judas wasn't Satan incarnate, he wasn't the pope, he wasn't a body politic, he was simply a man of lawlessness indwelt by Satan. He was just like so many other men who are deceived and made slaves to do his bidding. Jesus says,

QuoteJohn 17:12~ "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy Name: those that thou gavest Me I have kept, and none of them is Lost, but the Son of Perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

Fulfilled that the betrayer is one of His own congregation, not the infidels or the nations, but the congregation.

Quote from: DAVID Psalms 41:9~"Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me."

Judas, the thief, is a representation of the unfaithful in the Church who make the house of God, a den of thieves and robbers, buyers and sellers. Note that he was a son of perdition before we read Satan entered him. Therefore was he always lost from among the brethren. Can we look at Judas and claim he was a supernatural anti-Christ? He was a anti-christ to be sure, but he didn't control world economics, he controlled the Church purse. He was a Church thief, not a world leader. He went to the lawless Priests and Leaders of the Congregation to betray Christ, not to the King. And it should not escape our consideration that he betrayed Christ 'deceitfully' with a kiss, not by openly condemning Him. Likewise will the body of Christ be betrayed. With a Kiss by the thieves, the buyers and sellers in the Holy Temple of God who make merchandise of the Lord's house. This is the Character of the son of ruin or perdition. That verse in the book of John about Judas is the only other place where the phrase 'son of perdition' is mentioned in scripture, and it illustrates he is one of us, whose end is perdition or destruction. Speaking of Him, we read in the Book of Acts, of the fulfillment of scripture.

Quote from: LUKEActs 1:20~"For it is written in the book of Psalms, let his habitation be DESOLATE, and no man dwell therein: and his office let another take."

Judas's house, the house of those he conspired against Jesus with, was indeed left desolate (Luke 13:35). His office another did take because he was unworthy to hold it (Acts 1:25). This is the fate of the son of perdition, the man of sin. When Satan entered into Judas (Luke 22:3) he sought to betray Christ because he was brought under the control of Satan. He was in servitude to him. Remember what Jesus said to some of the Old Testament Congregation?

Quote from: JESUS CHRISTJohn 8:44~"Ye are of your Father the Devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

Having the Devil as their father means that they are his sons or offspring. They were sons of perdition because their father was Satan, and the lusts of their father they would do. He was the King of Destruction (Apollyon~Revelation 9:11) and these would not receive the law of truth Jesus brought because there was no truth in their father, the Devil. Thus they would do the lusts of their father. In harmony with this, 2nd Thessalonians 2:10 says that those at this coming time of apostasy will be deceived because they, "Received not the love of truth." Again, because Satan is the 'Father' of lies, and because they are the son of perdition, the truth they will not believe, but they will believe the lies of their father. They are the man of sin because they won't listen to the law of God, but they will listen to lawlessness. And in doing so, they place themselves (man) as ruler in the Temple "as if" they are God themselves.

Jesus told Peter, "get thee behind me Satan." Jesus wasn't saying Peter was a son of perdition, but He was illustrating those who are of Satan take pleasure or savor these same things. Look carefully at Christ's reason for calling Peter, Satan.

QuoteMatthew 16:23~"But He turned, and said unto Peter, get thee behind Me, Satan: thou art an offence unto Me: because thou savorest Not the things that be of God, but those that be of Men."

We will finish verse four later today, or in the morning, the Lord willing.

   

Hi Rella,

You have stated that nowhere in Revelation 12:12 and 20:3 and 7 is the word "mello" used.  Of course not, because the actions of those verses were all performed  in the past from John's perspective.  The thousand years ending and Satan's loosing was certainly not something that was "about to happen" in John's days.   This only proves my point; that the thousand year's ending and Satan's being loosed was a PAST event from the time John was writing. 

John was also told to write about what he had seen in the past, as well as presently occurring events, and things which were about to happen in his near future (Revelation 1:19).  The thousand years falls into the category of PAST things which John had seen. 

My comment did not imply that you don't know what the word "mello" means.  I was only stating that the "at hand" term in the Greek which we were discussing was not using the "mello" term.  You were the one who brought up the point in your reply that you think I pull the "soon" card consistently.  That "mello" term wasn't even the Greek word under discussion at the time.  We were discussing the "engus" (presently at hand) term and its use in 2 Thessalonians 2:2.

You have also said that I am excluding Revelation 20:4-6.  No, I believe you and I have already exchanged what I think about the interpretation of Revelation 20:4-6.  But I will repeat it again if necessary.     

And you are still laboring under the impression that the "abyss" is an actual physical location somewhere in the universe.  It's not.  The "abyss" is a STATUS which Christ also experienced at His death, as in Romans 10:7.   The "abyss" is no more a physical location than the "keys of death and hell" in the vision were literal metal objects which can open and shut a physical door behind which all the dead are restrained.  The "seal" and the "chain" put on Satan are no more a physical thing than is the seal of God in the forehead of the believers.  You and I do not have a tattoo mark imprinted on our forehead designating us as children of God.   Being "sealed" by the Holy Spirit is to be put in a reserved STATUS as children of God.  The particular seal put upon Satan kept him in that reserved STATUS of not being able to deceive until the thousand years expired at Christ's ascension.   

That reserved status for Satan by being sealed in the abyss did not say anything about restricting his ability to move around on earth or in heaven.  It merely restricted Satan's ability to deceive.  You are wanting the chain and the abyss to represent more than the scripture says they do.