Christian Forums

Quote from: Jaime on Sat Sep 03, 2022 - 19:25:00
I don't know of any "physics to allow the water of the red aea to stand up like walls to alllw a dry path. It was simply a miracle of God. Like the virgin birth and the resurrection.

You don't need to know of any physics that allow it for it to be so.

Which faith is greater?  The one that says God can break the rules?  Or the one that says God can make stuff happen without breaking them?

Quote from: Texas Conservative on Fri Sep 02, 2022 - 16:21:35
The Garden of Eden couldn't be a spiritual thing?  A place that really existed?

Can't have it both ways

"Spiritual" does not mean some sort of alternate reality.  Too much Star Trek...

That was my point Jarrod. God can work with whatever rules he want and it doesn't have to be consistant with science. Some people won't rest until some natural process is confirmed. Sounds like we agree where I thought we didn't.

Quote from: Jaime on Sat Sep 03, 2022 - 19:41:15
That was my point Jarrod. God can work with whatever rules he want and it doesn't have to be consistant with science. Some people won't rest until some natural process is confirmed. Sounds like we agree where I thought we didn't.

I don't think we do?  I do believe that some natural process exists for every miracle.  I don't feel a need to understand HOW or be able to explain it in precise terms.

I understand that there are some people out there who think that if a natural process always exists, that disproves God's existence.  I think precisely the opposite: if a natural process always exists, that is THE most powerful proof that someone is imposing order upon a universe that otherwise tends towards disorder.

Where mankind can't explain HOW or WHY, I'm inclined to call that a gap in mankind's understanding.  I do not think it means that God decided to suspend the Laws of the Universe for a few minutes.  My justification is not scientific, but theological: it isn't the character of God to break His own rules.

Jarrod

Quote from: Jaime on Sat Sep 03, 2022 - 19:41:15
That was my point Jarrod. God can work with whatever rules he want and it doesn't have to be consistant with science. Some people won't rest until some natural process is confirmed. Sounds like we agree where I thought we didn't.

To put it another way...  when a miracle occurs...

You say: God is powerful enough to break the laws of the universe.

I say:  God is powerful enough to plan the laws of the universe with billions of years of foresight, such that some weird outlying case applied at this place and time.

I just go with a miracle when something like the Red Sea crossing occurs. The Israelites were toast without a miracle. If God planned it a billion years ago, it doesn't negate that it was a miracle.

Quote from: Jaime on Sat Sep 03, 2022 - 20:24:15
If God planned it a billion years ago, it doesn't negate that it was a miracle.

Exactly.

So we DO agree! I never intended to imply that God was just willy nilly resorting to miracles in the spir of the moment in an ad hoc fashion.

Quote from: 4WD on Sat Sep 03, 2022 - 13:27:17
You are kidding, right?  If they were immortal before sinning, why would they need a tree of life? What does immortal mean?

1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

God alone has immortality, or can grant it to others. As is obvious concerning angels and humanity, and no doubt all other creations, we have conditional immortality. Granted by God through the means He has provided. Which in our case, is consumption from the tree of life. Thus we are granted access to it again in heaven. It only makes sense that those who would choose to reject God as what He is, should see to their own immortality as well. Or suffer the consequences of rejecting the simple plain facts of who He is to them.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. 6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. 7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. 8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. 10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. 11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sat Sep 03, 2022 - 20:21:30
To put it another way...  when a miracle occurs...

You say: God is powerful enough to break the laws of the universe.

I say:  God is powerful enough to plan the laws of the universe with billions of years of foresight, such that some weird outlying case applied at this place and time.

How does such explain the virgin birth, or raising the dead, or turning water into wine, making an axe head float in water, and so on, and so on?

Quote from: Amo on Sun Sep 04, 2022 - 06:16:46
1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

ESV 1Ti 6:16  who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.

Obviously, if God alone has immortality, then no one else, including Adam and Eve, had or has immortality.

Quote from: Amo on Sun Sep 04, 2022 - 06:16:46we have conditional immortality

Conditional mortality??  What in the world is that?  Conditional mortality is an oxymoron.

Quote from: Amo on Today at 06:16:46

Quotewe have conditional immortality

Quote from: 4WD on Sun Sep 04, 2022 - 06:57:39

Conditional mortality??  What in the world is that?  Conditional mortality is an oxymoron.

I can't answer for Amo but the way I see what he was saying is like the same argument with OSAS we are are if we walk in the light. Yes we are OSAS as long as we stay true to the covenant but if we turn away then we are no longer OSAS.

The same with immortality as long as we are true to the covenant we have immortality but if we do not keep the covenant then we chose mortality.

The way I understand we are going to be eternal one way or another either living with God (alive in the spirit) or separated from God (dead in the spirit) yet still some kind of life in suffering eternally.

Admittedly I do not fully understand the end times for lack of studying because it is too confusing and it doesn't matter if I understand the teaching as long as I live in the light and keep the covenant.

Quote from: 4WD on Sun Sep 04, 2022 - 06:57:39
ESV 1Ti 6:16  who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.

Obviously, if God alone has immortality, then no one else, including Adam and Eve, had or has immortality.
Conditional mortality??  What in the world is that?  Conditional mortality is an oxymoron.

Very simple actually.

1Jn 5:12  He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

The discussion was physical immortality.  The Tree of Life in the Garden was there to extend physical life (Gen 3:22).

Quote from: 4WD on Mon Sep 05, 2022 - 06:00:41
The discussion was physical immortality.  The Tree of Life in the Garden was there to extend physical life (Gen 3:22).

Just as the tree of life will be in the new heaven and new earth for the same purpose. Those who have the Son will be granted access to the tree of life, within the city. Those who do not, will not.

Quote from: Amo on Mon Sep 05, 2022 - 06:06:28
Just as the tree of life will be in the new heaven and new earth for the same purpose. Those who have the Son will be granted access to the tree of life, within the city. Those who do not, will not.

Cant wait to see where this will go.

deleted

Quote from: Amo on Sun Sep 04, 2022 - 06:32:26
How does such explain the virgin birth, or raising the dead, or turning water into wine, making an axe head float in water, and so on, and so on?

I can't explain HOW God's plan developed to cause any of those things.

And really, the point is... I don't need to know.

His plan obviously involved some miracles.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Mon Sep 05, 2022 - 16:31:26
I can't explain HOW God's plan developed to cause any of those things.

And really, the point is... I don't need to know.

The bottom line regarding all miracles I guess. None of us knows how.

Quote from: Amo on Mon Sep 05, 2022 - 20:26:28
The bottom line regarding all miracles I guess. None of us knows how.

Nor should we.

They are fact. If you chose not to believe then you degrade God's ability.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Sat Sep 03, 2022 - 19:29:54
Which faith is greater?  The one that says God can break the rules?  Or the one that says God can make stuff happen without breaking them?

The faith that is salvic REQUIRES us to believe God breaks the rules.

Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

I think that there is some confusion in how God works in this present physical world.  Perhaps there is a reason to consider that in a new topic. I will only comment here that, biblically speaking, God doesn't actually work miracles; miracles are works performed by a person through the power of God, the Holy Spirit.  They are visibly observed and recognized by others present. Miracles are by one of four major ways in which God works in the world.

Quote from: 4WD on Wed Sep 07, 2022 - 05:35:18
I think that there is some confusion in how God works in this present physical world.  Perhaps there is a reason to consider that in a new topic. I will only comment here that, biblically speaking, God doesn't actually work miracles; miracles are works performed by a person through the power of God, the Holy Spirit.  They are visibly observed and recognized by others present. Miracles are by one of four major ways in which God works in the world.

So Jesus was NOT God? ? ? ?

Quote from: DaveW on Wed Sep 07, 2022 - 06:07:53
So Jesus was NOT God? ? ? ?

Just a thought... I am not entering this.

Was Jesus God? Yes. Was Jesus fully human? Yes.

In answer to your suggestion of your question I would counter with asking if God can be killed or die?

"miracles are works performed by a person through the power of God, the Holy Spirit." This fills the bill of Jesus' time on earth.

But having witnessed a miracle many years ago with NO human around and only prayer.... this statement of miracles are works performed by a person through the power of God, the Holy Spirit is not 100% accurate.

Carry on 

Quote from: DaveW on Wed Sep 07, 2022 - 06:07:53
So Jesus was NOT God? ? ? ?

Yes He was/is God, the Son. Yet He was fully man.  I believe His power to work miracles was by the Holy Spirit, just as for the Apostles or anyone else.

Quote from: Rella on Wed Sep 07, 2022 - 06:53:07
But having witnessed a miracle many years ago with NO human around and only prayer.... this statement of miracles are works performed by a person through the power of God, the Holy Spirit is not 100% accurate.

What you witnessed was not a miracle, strictly speaking; but rather, a providential work of God.  There are two types of providential works of God.  One is in the overriding of His natural laws. The other is in the using of His natural laws.  And example of the first is in causing the "sun to stand still"; and example of the second is in using the wind in "opening a way" through the Red Sea.  Biblically, miracles and providential acts are not the same.

Quote from: 4WD on Wed Sep 07, 2022 - 07:01:20
What you witnessed was not a miracle, strictly speaking; but rather, a providential work of God.  There are two types of providential works of God.  One is in the overriding of His natural laws. The other is in the using of His natural laws.  And example of the first is in causing the "sun to stand still"; and example of the second is in using the wind in "opening a way" through the Red Sea.  Biblically, miracles and providential acts are not the same.

Biblically, providential acts do not exist. Unless I am mistaken, please do show me where the bible states this or that as a providential act.

Exo 14:21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided. 22 And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left. 23 And the Egyptians pursued, and went in after them to the midst of the sea, even all Pharaoh's horses, his chariots, and his horsemen. 24 And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the LORD looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and troubled the host of the Egyptians, 25 And took off their chariot wheels, that they drave them heavily: so that the Egyptians said, Let us flee from the face of Israel; for the LORD fighteth for them against the Egyptians. 26 And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand over the sea, that the waters may come again upon the Egyptians, upon their chariots, and upon their horsemen. 27 And Moses stretched forth his hand over the sea, and the sea returned to his strength when the morning appeared; and the Egyptians fled against it; and the LORD overthrew the Egyptians in the midst of the sea. 28 And the waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them; there remained not so much as one of them. 29 But the children of Israel walked upon dry land in the midst of the sea; and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left. 30 Thus the LORD saved Israel that day out of the hand of the Egyptians; and Israel saw the Egyptians dead upon the sea shore. 31 And Israel saw that great work which the LORD did upon the Egyptians: and the people feared the LORD, and believed the LORD, and his servant Moses.

It doesn't matter what was used, or how it exactly happened. It was a miracle, being completely outside the bounds of natural phenomena.

So then you read, Mat 5:45  .... For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good and sends rain on the just and on the unjust...., you call that a miracle?  Whatever!

Quote from: 4WD on Sat Sep 10, 2022 - 12:27:46
So then you read, Mat 5:45  .... For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good and sends rain on the just and on the unjust...., you call that a miracle?  Whatever!

No, but neither does scripture. Nor does the verse you quoted, nor is the context of that verse in relation to a miracle or miracles. Though in fact, since God created the earth and the sun and rain, they could be considered miracles. Though not in the same sense as that which is outside of natural phenomena such sunrises or rain.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSbSy2dBURk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD6iy7bxlIo

A couple of short videos addressing what appears to be wrong observations and conclusions of the past, supporting the false deep time narrative of evolutionary thought.

Quote from: Amo on Sun Sep 25, 2022 - 08:01:38
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSbSy2dBURk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD6iy7bxlIo

A couple of short videos addressing what appears to be wrong observations and conclusions of the past, supporting the false deep time narrative of evolutionary thought.

I am not a geologist by any measure of the term.  However, I have studied a little bit about the geology of the region that he is talking about, namely Coconino County, Arizona.

There is nothing about that particular sandstone being under water that poses a problem in the argument against a worldwide flood.  Actually, the many layers exposed in the Grand Canyon indicate that the entire region of the Colorado Plateau, throughout the history of the earth, experienced both periods of shallow seabed conditions with interspersed periods of desert conditions.  That, in itself, speaks highly against any world-wide flood-based origins.  So therefore, nothing presented in either of those videos really argues in favor of a world-wide flood.  Everything there can be, and has been, readily explained without resorting to the existence of a world-wide flood.

Quote from: 4WD on Sun Sep 25, 2022 - 09:27:21
I am not a geologist by any measure of the term.  However, I have studied a little bit about the geology of the region that he is talking about, namely Coconino County, Arizona.

There is nothing about that particular sandstone being under water that poses a problem in the argument against a worldwide flood.  Actually, the many layers exposed in the Grand Canyon indicate that the entire region of the Colorado Plateau, throughout the history of the earth, experienced both periods of shallow seabed conditions with interspersed periods of desert conditions.  That, in itself, speaks highly against any world-wide flood-based origins.  So therefore, nothing presented in either of those videos really argues in favor of a world-wide flood.  Everything there can be, and has been, readily explained without resorting to the existence of a world-wide flood.

Good morning 4WD,

I do not recall if you ever said so I will ask again.

It appears that you are of the mind that Noah's World Wide Flood was fake news? By world wide I mean that covered the entire earth from east to west and North Pole to South.

BUT... Are you also of the opinion that there never was a Noah's flood?

There is quite and extensive article in Wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_flood_myths)

And I copy it below .

They refer to the flood... any of the Noah type as strictly myths. But the listing of cultures that have some belief is extensive and this link shows they are from all corners of the earth.

Granted some would be handed down by word of mouth . Some are strictly cultural tellings, and others religious.

My question to you is this

WHY?

If the flood never happened at all..... Or.... If the flood was Mideast regional. Why would the 4 corners of the earth have a similar story to pass down?

Unless... those who hailed from the Mideast back in Noah's time passed the word on and then as they migrated never thought to tell those they were telling it was just regional? I suppose you could make that case.... I prefer to believe what I have read
in the bible and not try to disect every jot and tittle that was never in the Holy Book to begin with.

From the link:

Quote
Flood myths are common across a wide range of cultures, extending back into Bronze Age and Neolithic prehistory. These accounts depict a flood, sometimes global in scale, usually sent by a deity or deities to destroy civilization as an act of divine retribution.

Contents
1   Africa
2   Americas
2.1   North America
2.2   Mesoamerica
2.3   South America
2.3.1   Canari
2.3.2   Inca
2.3.3   Mapuche
2.3.4   Muisca
2.3.5   Tupi
3   Asia
3.1   Ancient Near East
3.1.1   Mesopotamian
3.1.2   Abrahamic religions
3.2   China
3.3   Iran
3.4   India
3.5   Indonesia
3.6   Japan
3.7   Korea
3.8   Malaysia
3.9   Philippines
3.10   Thailand
3.11   Taiwan's Saisiat Tribe
3.12   Vietnam
4   Europe
4.1   Classical Antiquity
4.2   Medieval Europe
4.2.1   Baltic area
4.2.2   Breton
4.2.3   Cornish
4.2.4   Irish
4.2.5   Welsh
4.2.6   Norse
4.2.7   Bashkir
4.3   Modern era folklore
4.3.1   Finnish
5   Oceania
5.1   Australia
5.2   Polynesia
6   References
Africa
Although the continent has relatively few flood legends,[1][2][3][4] African cultures preserving an oral tradition of a flood include the Kwaya, Mbuti, Maasai, Mandin, and Yoruba peoples.[5]

Egypt

The flood myth in Egyptian mythology involves the god Ra and his daughter Sekhmet. Ra sent Sekhmet to destroy part of humanity for their disrespect and unfaithfulness which resulted in a great flood of blood. However, Ra intervened by getting her drunk and causing her to pass out. This is commemorated in a wine drinking festival during the annual Nile flood.[6]

Americas
North America

Algonquian peoples (some): Manabozho Stories[7]
Anishinaabe: Flood Myth - an Algonquin Story[7]
Anishinaabe: Turtle Island[8]
Choctaw: A Choctaw Flood Story[9]
Comox people: Legend of Queneesh[citation needed]
Cree: Cree Flood Story[7]
Cree (Knisteneaux): Knisteneaux Flood Myth[citation needed]
Hopi mythology: Entrance into the Fourth World[citation needed]
Inuit: flood myth[10]
Menomini: Manabozho and the Flood[7]
Miꞌkmaq: Two Creators and their Conflicts[7]
Nipmuc: Cautanowwit[7]
Nisqually: In the beginning of the Nisqually world.[11]
Ojibwe: Great Serpent and the Great Flood[7]
Ojibwe: Manabozho and the Muskrat[7]
Ojibwe: Waynaboozhoo and the Great Flood[7]
Orowignarak (Alaska): "A great inundation, together with an earthquake, swept the land so rapidly that only a few people escaped in their skin canoes to the tops of the highest mountains."[12]
Ottawa: The Great Flood[7]
W̱SÁNEĆ people: flood myth[13]

Mesoamerica
Mesoamerican flood myths

South America

Jipohan flood legend[14]
Kaingang flood legend[15]
Canari
Urcocari
Inca
Unu Pachakuti
Mapuche
Legend of Trentren Vilu and Caicai Vilu
Muisca
Bochica
Tupi
Sumé

Asia
Ancient Near East
Mesopotamian
Sumerian creation myth (The Flood Narrative was written during the Old Babylonian Period and added into existing texts such as the Sumerian King List[16])

Atra-Hasis
Gilgamesh flood myth

Abrahamic religions

The Deluge, c. 1896–1902, by James Jacques Joseph Tissot
Genesis flood narrative (retold in Gnostic texts such as the Secret Book of John and Hypostasis of the Archons)[17]
Noah's Ark

Islamic view of Noah

China

Yu the Great
Nüwa
Great Flood (China)

Iran

The Videvdad mentions that Ahura Mazda warns Yima that there will come a harsh winter storm followed by melted snow.[18] Ahura Mazda advises Yima to construct a Vara (Avestan: enclosure). This he is to populate with the fittest of men and women; and with two of every animal, bird and plant; and supply with food and water gathered the previous summer.[19] Norbert Oettinger argues that the story of Yima and the Vara was originally a flood myth, and the harsh winter was added in due to the dry nature of Eastern Iran, as floods didn't have as much of an effect as harsh winters. He has argued that the Videvdad 2.24's mention of melted water flowing is a remnant of the flood myth.[20]

India

The Matsya avatar comes to the rescue of Manu
Manu and Matsya: The legend first appears in Shatapatha Brahmana (700–300 BCE), and is further detailed in Matsya Purana (250–500 CE). Matsya (the incarnation of Lord Vishnu as a fish) forewarns Manu (a human) about an impending catastrophic flood and orders him to collect all the grains of the world in a boat; in some forms of the story, all living creatures are also to be preserved in the boat. When the flood destroys the world, Manu – in some versions accompanied by the seven great sages – survives by boarding the ark, which Matsya pulls to safety. Norbert Oettinger argues that the story originally was about Yama, but that he was replaced by his brother Manu due to the social context of the authorship of the Shatapatha Brahmana.[20]
Pūluga, the creator god in the religion of the indigenous inhabitants of the Andaman Islands, sends a devastating flood to punish people who have forgotten his commands. Only four people survive this flood: two men and two women.[21]
Indonesia
Watuwe the Mystic Crocodile

Japan
Japan lacks a major flood myth. Japanese scholars in the 19th century such as Hirata Atsutane and Motoori Norinaga used the global flood myths of other cultures to argue for the supremacy of Shinto and promote Japanese nationalism.[22] They claimed that the fact that Japan has no flood myth showed that it was both the centre and highest point on Earth, making it the closest place on Earth to the heavens. As such, this demonstrates to them the veracity of the Japanese creation myth, where Japan comes first and foremost.

Korea
Mokdoryung
Namu doryeong[23]

Malaysia
Temuan
Orang Seletar

Philippines
Ifugao: One year, when the rainy season should have come, it did not. When the river dried up, the people dug into its grave, hoping to find the soul of the river. They struck a great spring, which angered the river gods. It began to rain and the river overflowed its banks. The resulting flood wiped out all of humanity save for two survivors, Wigan and Bugan, who repopulated the earth once the waters receded.[24]
Igorot: Once upon a time, when the world was flat and there were no mountains, there lived two brothers, sons of Lumawig, the Great Spirit. The brothers were fond of hunting, and since no mountains had formed there was no good place to catch wild pig and deer, and the older brother said: "Let us cause water to flow over all the world and cover it, and then mountains will rise up."[25]

Thailand

The Origin of Humans from A Massive Magical Gourd, by Suradej Kaewthamai
There are many folktales among Tai peoples, included Zhuang, Thai, Shan and Lao, talking about the origin of them and the deluge from their Thean (แถน), supreme being object of faith.

Pu Sangkasa-Ya Sangkasi (Thai: ปู่สังกะสา-ย่าสังกะสี) or Grandfather Sangkasa and Grandmother Sangkasi, according to the creation myth of those Tai people folktales, were the first man and woman created by the supreme god, Phu Ruthua (ผู้รู้ทั่ว). A thousand years passed, their descendants were wicked and crude as well as not interested in worshiping the supreme god. The god got angry and punished them with a great flood. Fortunately, some descendants survived because they fled into an enormous magical gourd. Many months passed, the supreme god had compassion on the humans that had to live in the difficult period of their life, so he had two deities Khun Luang and Khun Lai climbed down a massive vine linking an island heaven that floated in the sky to the earth in order to drill the enormous gourd and take the surviving humans to a new land. The water levels had been come down already and there was the dry land. The deities helped the surviving people and led them to the new land. When everyone arrived in the land called Mueang Thaen, the two deities taught the humans how to cultivate rice, farming and building structures.[26]

Taiwan's Saisiat Tribe
An old white-haired man came to Oppehnaboon in a dream and told him that a great storm would soon come. Oppehnaboon built a boat. Only Oppehnaboon and his sister survived. They had a child, they cut the child into pieces and each piece became a new person. Oppehnaboon taught the new people their names and they went forth to populate the earth.[citation needed]

Vietnam
Sơn Tinh – Thủy Tinh
Virtually every Southeast Asian ethnic group in Vietnam tells a story of a great flood that leaves only 2 survivors who must consummate the marriage.[citation needed] Sometimes they are siblings, sometimes a woman and dog, but from this incestuous abnormality is born a gourd or a gourd-shaped lump of flesh, and the gourd becomes the source for various ethnic groups, according to Dang Nghiem Van, who explored the flood myths of Southeast Asia by collecting 307 flood myths in a field research in Vietnam in the early 90s, describing how they all have varying versions of essentially a similar story.[27]

Europe

Classical Antiquity

Ancient Greek flood myths

Medieval Europe

Baltic area

Vineta

Breton

Ys

Cornish

Lyonesse

Irish
Lebor Gabála Érenn – Cessair

Welsh
Dwyfan and Dwyfach
Cantre'r Gwaelod
Norse
Bergelmir
Bashkir
Ural-batyr
Modern era folklore
Finnish

Finnish flood myth

Oceania
Australia
Tiddalik: A water-holding frog awoke one morning with an extreme thirst, and began to drink until all the freshwater was consumed. Creatures and plant life everywhere began to die due to lack of moisture. Other animals devised a plan for him to release all of the water he had consumed by making him laugh. As Tiddalik laughed, the water rushed out of him to replenish the lakes, swamps and rivers.
Lizards vs Platypuses: The world became overpopulated with birds, reptiles, and other animals. Therefore, a meeting took place in the Blue Mountains to mitigate this. Tiger Snake planned that birds and animals who have good mobility should migrate to a new country. The lizards, who knew about rainmaking, decided to rid the world of the platypuses, whereby instructing all of their family to perform the rain ceremony. The lizards fled to mountain tops, before a deluge covered the land below, destroying most of the world. The flood eventually ended and there were no platypuses. After some time Carpet Snake observed the existence of platypus. The animals discovered that they were all related to the platypuses, who were then invited back and treated as ancient value. Eventually the head platypus married into the bandicoot family, although platypuses were never comfortable with other animals.[28][29]

Polynesia

Nu'u
Ruatapu
Tāwhaki

Quote from: 4WD on Sun Sep 25, 2022 - 09:27:21
I am not a geologist by any measure of the term.  However, I have studied a little bit about the geology of the region that he is talking about, namely Coconino County, Arizona.

There is nothing about that particular sandstone being under water that poses a problem in the argument against a worldwide flood.  Actually, the many layers exposed in the Grand Canyon indicate that the entire region of the Colorado Plateau, throughout the history of the earth, experienced both periods of shallow seabed conditions with interspersed periods of desert conditions.  That, in itself, speaks highly against any world-wide flood-based origins.  So therefore, nothing presented in either of those videos really argues in favor of a world-wide flood.  Everything there can be, and has been, readily explained without resorting to the existence of a world-wide flood.

Yes, of course people of different faiths, can develop different theories. As you have just done as one who discounts a global flood. Nevertheless, these layers obviously being laid down by water rather than the result of desert formations, is without question evidence in support of a global flood over and above deep time desert formation. You simply choose not to go their, because it is not conducive to your chosen faith.

Quote from: Amo on Sun Sep 25, 2022 - 10:17:07
Yes, of course people of different faiths, can develop different theories. As you have just done as one who discounts a global flood. Nevertheless, these layers obviously being laid down by water rather than the result of desert formations, is without question evidence in support of a global flood over and above deep time desert formation. You simply choose not to go their, because it is not conducive to your chosen faith.

"layers obviously being laid down by water"?? So how did those desert formation layers in the Grand Canyon get laid down by water?

Also, by people of different faiths, are you talking about non-SDAs?