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Quote from: Rella on Mon Nov 04, 2024 - 10:25:10So you discount There are plenty of recent findings about dinosaurs and with collagen. Collagen can only last about 6000 years in exposure to oxygen. Dr. Schweitzer, not a Christian, has handled collagen that stretches and goes back to shape.

Or is your explanation that it would have been sealed in the skin of the animals?

Mary Schweitzer's research confirmed that the collagen extracted from the femur of the T-rex was indeed 68 million years old. She has gone on to confirm these findings in multiple specimens. Add to that, Mary Schweitzer is indeed a Christian. 

Collagen, a protein found in bones and connective tissue, has been found in dinosaur fossils as old as 195 million years

Full article here

Quote from: Rella on Sun Nov 03, 2024 - 08:06:48Velikovsky called it right about Jupiter and also has done very worthwhile studies coordinating ancient references to astronomical events.

No... no he didn't.

You may wish to read the section called 'Ideas' on his wikipedia page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_Velikovsky

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Nov 05, 2024 - 12:11:03No... no he didn't.

You may wish to read the section called 'Ideas' on his wikipedia page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_Velikovsky

Thanks Jarrod

You got me away from being a go between for someone who just
is too something to join up and do his own battles....

Quote from: Rella on Tue Nov 05, 2024 - 13:26:46You got me away from being a go between for someone who just is too something to join up and do his own battles...

Where else are you posting now?  I'm still at cboard despite the JW's.

Quote from: Alan on Tue Nov 05, 2024 - 08:37:25Collagen, a protein found in bones and connective tissue, has been found in dinosaur fossils as old as 195 million years

Full article here

The article I shared was debunking the article you linked above. Here is another earlier article doing the same.

https://crev.info/2024/09/another-excuse-for-dinosaur-soft-tissue/

Quoted article below from link above.

QuoteDarwinists Try Another Excuse for Dinosaur Soft Tissue

They can't deny it exists, but their
commitment to Deep Time requires an
explanation— anything that "could" work

— Another paper tries to explain soft tissue preservation in dinosaurs. Does it succeed? —

Applying a phenomenon in quantum mechanics called the Pauli Exclusion Principle, researchers at MIT dreamed up a new theory and "tested" it with computer models. The Pauli Exclusion Principle forbids extra electrons from filled orbitals in atoms. These physicists claim that certain twists in three-stranded collagen fibrils put amino acids into close contact where Pauli Exclusion comes into play, resulting in tight contacts that keep out water. They know that the half-life of proteins in the presence of water is about 500 years. Their theoretical water-excluding process keeps the collagen dry, and voila! It "could" last for millions of years! We investigate this claim.

MIT chemists explain why dinosaur collagen may have survived for millions of years (4 Sept 2024, MIT News). Press office Darwin disciple Anne Trafton summarizes the research that was funded by the "National Institutes of Health and the National Science Foundation" which, as everyone knows, have no agenda or bias at all. Their motives are as pure as Darwin's!

Collagen, a protein found in bones and connective tissue, has been found in dinosaur fossils as old as 195 million years. That far exceeds the normal half-life of the peptide bonds that hold proteins together, which is about 500 years.

A new study from MIT offers an explanation for how collagen can survive for so much longer than expected. The research team found that a special atomic-level interaction defends collagen from attack by water molecules. This barricade prevents water from breaking the peptide bonds through a process called hydrolysis.

Faced with falsification of Deep Time after soft tissue has been discovered in numerous dinosaur bones and other fossils, the Darwinians know that their worldview is at stake. They admit that intact proteins have been found in a T. rex bone alleged to be 80 million Darwin Years old, and in a sauropodomorph fossil that is alleged to be almost 200 million years old. It means that the observed half-life of a protein is about a millionth of the alleged age of the dinosaur collagen.

Ronald T. Raines, a chemist at MIT, knows this is a desperate problem. His team with three colleagues looked at all the possible explanations to keep these bones old.

"I can't discount the contributions from other factors, but 200 million years is a long time, and I think you need something at the molecular level, at the atomic level in order to explain it," Raines says.

One statement in this press release reveals a weakness. It only works (if at all) for collagen. But collagen is not the only kind of soft tissue found in dinosaur bones.

This sharing of electrons has also been seen in protein structures known as alpha helices, which are found in many proteins. These helices may also be protected from water, but the helices are always connected by protein sequences that are more exposed, which are still susceptible to hydrolysis.

"Collagen is all triple helices, from one end to the other," Raines says. "There's no weak link, and that's why I think it has survived."

The press release does not state how Raines and his team tested their explanation. One thing is obvious: they did not test it for 200 million years.

Pauli Exclusion by n→π* Interactions: Implications for Paleobiology (Yang et al., 4 Sept 2024, ACS Central Science). This is the formal paper. Let's start by counting the hedging words and evaluating the perhapsimaybecouldness index.

*Numerous factors have been proposed for the extraordinary longevity of collagen. The abundance of the protein, its highly cross-linked structure, and its inaccessibility to proteases could play roles.

*In addition, the mineral matrix within bones could deter the extraction of collagen and its subsequent exposure to hydrolytic conditions. None of these putative explanations is definitive, and none provides a physicochemical basis for the resistance of the peptide bonds in collagen to hydrolysis. [I.e., we need to start over with another explanation.]

*Accordingly, the engagement of a π* orbital in an n→π* interaction could protect peptide bonds from hydrolysis.

*These isomers have n→π* interactions that could protect their solvent-accessible ester carbon from attack by a water molecule by Pauli exclusion.

*Thus, the "weakest links" in the collagen triple helix could be most protected by n→π* interactions.

*This protection, which arises from the Pauli exclusion principle, could underlie the preservation of ancient collagen.

A look at their testing procedure shows that they did NOT test the protection on actual collagen, any protein, or even on a polypeptide. They only evaluated the presence of an n→π* interaction between one amino acid (proline) and an ester to evaluate its stability against hydrolysis. Then they used computer models to evaluate whether such interactions could provide protection. None of three possible interactions they tested supplied perfect protection indefinitely.

Most notably, their conclusion shows that the authors assumed the dinosaur collagen was millions of years old, not that the date of the fossils was up for discussion!

Using both experimental and computational tools, we have discovered that n→π* interactions protect prolyl esters from hydrolysis. This discovery has implications for the stability of collagen, which is replete with n→π* interactions and has remained intact for (at least) hundreds of millions of years, exceeding the half-life of a peptide bond by a millionfold or more. The stability conferred by n→π* interactions upon collagen─modern and ancient─can guide the design of exceptionally stable, long-lived materials.

To naive readers assuming Deep Time like the authors, if a proposed explanation "could" explain the longevity of dinosaur proteins, then it "does" explain it – especially if they cannot read any rebuttal of the claim.

As we like to remind our readers, Deep Time is not a solution to Darwin's problems. Deep Time is the problem.

Given the censorship of journals against Darwin skeptics (and especially against doubters of Deep Time), these four authors will probably never have to answer hard questions. Let's ask them anyway.

*Did they prove that a theoretical protection for 3 orders of magnitude is sufficient to explain longevity for 8 orders of magnitude? No.

*Did they prove that all peptides in collagen have the n→π* interactions to theoretically offer protection against hydrolysis? No.

*Does their "explanation" work for strands of collagen not tightly wrapped in triple helices? No.

*Did they test their hypothesis on real proteins or polypeptides? No; they only gave excuses why it is too hard to test those.

*Did they observe their ester bonds remaining resistant to water attack for any significant length of time? No, not even a millionth of the time they believe it "could" protect them.

*Did they present a reasonable basis for assuming that their explanation could account for the longevity of dinosaur proteins in realistic fossil conditions like being drenched in groundwater, enduring temperature swings, and being subject to bioturbation and geological changes? No.

*Did they evaluate all the published findings of dinosaur soft tissue, and then graph longevity vs. assumed age? No.

*Did they explain the longevity of other kinds of dinosaur soft tissue, including blood vessels, blood cells, osteocytes, and even DNA? No.

*Did they face any peer reviewers who are not Darwinists? No.

*Did they face any peer reviewers who are not moyboys? No.

*Did they question the alleged age of dinosaur soft tissue? No. They assumed it.

*Did they admit that the discovery of intact dinosaur protein was unexpected? Yes.

*Did they, or will they, review the literature from creation scientists showing why long-age explanations do not work? Highly doubtful. They did not cite any of them in their references.

*Did they seek the truth about dinosaur soft tissue without bias? Apparently not. Their goal was to "explain" why one protein (collagen) "could" have survived tens or hundreds of millions of years.

*Did they bamboozle their readers with only the appearance of science? Probably.

We expect that this cherry-picked "explanation" for long ages for "some" of proteins will go the way of all the other proposals that moyboys have used (iron links, bacteria, toast, magic, etc.) to dodge the unexpected, surprising, shocking discovery of intact soft tissues in dinosaur bones. Don't let them get away with dodgeball. Keep this issue on the front burner. It has the potential to pull the rug out from under the entire Darwinian house of cards.

Recommended Reading: See Brian Thomas's big list at ICR of published reports of intact soft tissues in fossils. Notice that they are not all collagen, and that some of the dates go back to more than 250 million Darwin Years.

200 million years?

Did this number come from J. Ann Selzer?

 

Quote from: Amo on Tue Nov 05, 2024 - 22:00:05The article I shared was debunking the article you linked above. Here is another earlier article doing the same.

https://crev.info/2024/09/another-excuse-for-dinosaur-soft-tissue/

Quoted article below from link above.

Your article debunks nothing, it takes an unsuccessful jab at a well presented piece of science. 

Quote from: Amo on Mon Nov 04, 2024 - 08:28:02And that is the exact problem and sin of deep time evolutionary professing "Christians". 

 

"Sin"? Seriously? You are deluded beyond reason. 

Quote from: Amo on Mon Nov 04, 2024 - 08:48:31Just more hubris concerning the vain imaginations of those who reject the testimony of holy scripture....

Wild that you call well established facts Imagination, only to replace those facts with ideas that have zero evidence to support them. 

Quote from: Alan on Thu Nov 07, 2024 - 11:32:34Your article debunks nothing, it takes an unsuccessful jab at a well presented piece of science.

A piece of science which is literally nothing but speculation regarding what is a highly unlikely scenario. Which does not factually address anything, but is purely speculative. Not to mention addressing only one type of the several tissues or surviving organic materials found within dinosaur bones.

Quote from: Alan on Thu Nov 07, 2024 - 11:52:03"Sin"? Seriously? You are deluded beyond reason.

Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Quote from: Alan on Thu Nov 07, 2024 - 11:54:54Wild that you call well established facts Imagination, only to replace those facts with ideas that have zero evidence to support them.

Wild that you call mere speculations regarding things which might have happened over tens to hundreds of millions of years, though highly unlikely, established facts. Get a grip man, what these scientists have speculated concerning possible means of preservation is nowhere near any realms of factual reality. Accepting in the minds and imaginations alone, of those who strongly desire them to be so. Each demonstrating tremendous faith in their chosen theory of evolution by doing so, in their best efforts in fact to preserve their theory as still tenable. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtX6R6yaT04

Oil and a young earth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbTmqph9EDg

Another good Answers in Genesis.

Quote from: Amo on Sat Nov 09, 2024 - 16:12:41https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbTmqph9EDg

Another good Answers in Genesis.

Yes, good. But just emphasizes that we know dinasauers existed because we have their skeletal remains.

What about Giants that are  in the bible... but nothing remains except Og's bed?

BTE... I thought the man explained this well and easy to comprehend.

Quote from: Rella on Sun Nov 10, 2024 - 15:55:12Yes, good. But just emphasizes that we know dinasauers existed because we have their skeletal remains.

What about Giants that are  in the bible... but nothing remains except Og's bed?

BTE... I thought the man explained this well and easy to comprehend.

Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. 4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. 5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Apart from the fact that there are more evidences of giants than just Og's bed, there does not seem to be as much as one would imagine there should be. One reason might be what scripture reveals above. It was humanity in particular, that God intended to wipe out. Our sins and deplorable condition spread throughout the planet. He might have simply done a much better job completely wiping out the primary object of His judgement, than the rest of the more innocent creations involved in the ruin humanity caused.

Then there is the possibility as well of course, that there really has been a conspiracy to wipe out all evidence of giants. By a competing theory of strictly human origin, within which giants simply do not fit. IE evolution. Since it is a fact, that many more people believed in and reported upon evidence of past giants, before the theory of evolution took hold upon a majority. Not to mention the accusations regarding certain "scientists" and or scientific institutions being involved in the disappearance of a great deal of such evidence. As they were reported to be the final recipients of such, by many.

https://archive.org/details/tgwra

https://avalonlibrary.net/ebooks/Richard%20J.%20Dewhurst%20-%20The%20Ancient%20Giants%20Who%20Ruled%20America.pdf

Quote from: Amo on Mon Nov 11, 2024 - 07:28:41Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. 4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. 5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Apart from the fact that there are more evidences of giants than just Og's bed, there does not seem to be as much as one would imagine there should be. One reason might be what scripture reveals above. It was humanity in particular, that God intended to wipe out. Our sins and deplorable condition spread throughout the planet. He might have simply done a much better job completely wiping out the primary object of His judgement, than the rest of the more innocent creations involved in the ruin humanity caused.

Then there is the possibility as well of course, that there really has been a conspiracy to wipe out all evidence of giants. By a competing theory of strictly human origin, within which giants simply do not fit. IE evolution. Since it is a fact, that many more people believed in and reported upon evidence of past giants, before the theory of evolution took hold upon a majority. Not to mention the accusations regarding certain "scientists" and or scientific institutions being involved in the disappearance of a great deal of such evidence. As they were reported to be the final recipients of such, by many.

https://archive.org/details/tgwra

https://avalonlibrary.net/ebooks/Richard%20J.%20Dewhurst%20-%20The%20Ancient%20Giants%20Who%20Ruled%20America.pdf

Here is a question.

We know what we are told and we have believed without proof. Proof being even a finger or toe that could be tested and identified coming from a very large person and worthy of a museum.

What do other religions say on the subject?

Think Ill go look around.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o516mrvaATM

Evidence for a young earth.

Quote from: Rella on Mon Nov 11, 2024 - 08:37:17Here is a question.

We know what we are told and we have believed without proof. Proof being even a finger or toe that could be tested and identified coming from a very large person and worthy of a museum.

What do other religions say on the subject?

Think Ill go look around.

There are already such evidences. No evolution promoting museum will pay attention to or display such anomalies, which cause speculation regarding their accepted and promoted theories. You will have to search Creation museums, institutes, or collections to find or view such evidence.

Interesting:  But no proof.

https://www.ias.edu/sites/default/files/hs/Crone_Book_of_Watchers.pdf

THE BOOK OF WATCHERS IN THE QUR<ÅN

The Quran has mention of Enoch?


AND:

https://www.islamreligion.com/articles/282/ones-who-perished-part-1/

The Ones Who Perished (part 1 of 2): The Fate ... - The Religion of Islam
And never do We reward in such a way except those who are ungrateful." (Quran 34:15-17) Ad, Iram, and Ubar. Did you not see how your Lord dealt with 'Ad - (the people of) Iram of the pillars - the like of whom had not been created in the land (before)? (Quran 89:6-9) The 'Ad were a nation of giants.

AND

https://islamqa.info/en/answers/20612/how-tall-was-adam-peace-be-upon-him

1- A Muslim is obliged to believe in every idea for which there is evidence in the Quran or the Sunnah. 2- The basic principle is to accept the absolute power of Allah. 3- Allah created Adam and he was sixty cubits tall. For more, please see the detailed answer.

https://www.livescience.com/8340-world-largest-dinosaur-graveyard-linked-mass-death.html

Quoted article below from link above. Emphasis is mine, my comments in blue.

QuoteWorld's Largest Dinosaur Graveyard Linked to Mass Death

Scientists have revealed what may be the world's largest dinosaur graveyard.

The dinosaurs may have been part of a mass die-off resulting from a monster storm, comparable to today's hurricanes, which struck what was then a coastal area.

The findings could help solve a mystery concerning why the badlands of western Canada are so rich in dinosaur fossils.

The roughly 76-million-year-old fossil beds apparently hold thousands of bones over an area of at least 568 acres (2.3 square km), skeletons that belonged to a roughly cow-sized, plant-eating horned dinosaur known as Centrosaurus. This treasure trove provides the first solid evidence that some horned dinosaur herds were much larger than previously thought, with numbers easily in the high hundreds to low thousands, said senior research scientist David Eberth, a paleontologist and geologist at the Royal Tyrrell Museum in Alberta.

The "mega-bonebed," which consists of 14 smaller bonebeds, lies in northern Alberta near Hilda, Canada, right by the border with Saskatchewan. The graveyard was actually discovered in 1997, but confirmation of the discovery's size was detailed this month in the book "New Perspectives On Horned Dinosaurs" (Indiana University Press, 2010). [Illustration of centrosaur herd]

Alberta is extraordinarily rich in fossils, such as those of duck-billed dinosaurs, horned dinosaurs including Triceratops, ankylosaurs, raptors related to Velociraptor, and tyrannosaurids such as Albertosaurus and Tyrannosaurus rex. The area was home to a remarkable diversity of other animals as well, including birds, pterosaurs, alligators, turtles, lizards and mammals — in fact, scientists recently found mammal tooth marks on dinosaur bones in Alberta.

Thousands die in flood

Back when these centrosaurs lived, Alberta was warm and lush, and encompassed lowlands on the western coast of the Western Interior Seaway, a vast inland sea that divided what is now North America in half. The way the fossils are linked together in the same layers of earth within these bonebeds suggests all these centrosaurs were wiped out simultaneously.

The likely culprit in this scenario was a catastrophic storm, which could quickly have routinely made the waters flood up as high as 12 to 15 feet (3.6 to 4.6 meters), if experiences with modern floodplains are any guide.

"The flooding could have reached more than 100 kilometers (60 miles) from the shoreline," Eberth told LiveScience. "The landscape basically just drowns."

The flat area would have provided no high ground for escape, leading to thousands of animals drowning in the rising waters.

"It's unlikely that these animals could tread water for very long, so the scale of the carnage must have been breathtaking," Eberth said. "The evidence suggests that after the flood, dinosaur scavengers reentered the area, trampling and smashing bones in their attempt to feast on the rotting remains."

Fossil mystery solved

These storms could also help explain why fossils are so abundant in the badlands of western Canada overall, "and why they are often found preserved so exquisitely," Eberth said.

Coastal floodplains such as those seen in modern Bangladesh can cover vast areas, with flooding killing hundreds of thousands of livestock, not to mention the human tragedies that occur.

"Because of their size and the scale of the flooding, dinosaurs could not escape the coastal floodwaters and would have been killed in large numbers," Eberth explained. "In contrast, fish, small reptiles, mammals, and birds may have been able to escape such seasonal catastrophes by retreating to quiet water areas, the safety of trees and burrows, or simply by flying away."

The researchers now hope to take lessons they have learned in Alberta to compare it to other parts of the world in an effort to pinpoint signs of past catastrophes elsewhere.

As the article above suggests, their speculations and theories could explain these mass graveyards. So could the global flood described in holy scripture. The sea described separating Canada from north America could have formed from the global flood as well. Been present for quite some time as a result of that global flood, gradually and or catastrophically draining off some time after the flood. The mass graveyard itself simply being one of the countless graveyards found the world over, where untold numbers of animals fleeing the same catastrophic event, ended up together as they tried to escape doom. Seeking safety or the highest ground in evading the flood, dying together, and eventually laying to rest together wherever the receding flood waters deposited them.

Catastrophic extinction events are now the prevalent explanation for the evidence which most obviously suggests such. Which is in fact all over the world. Which could suggest the scenario described above over and over and over again all over the world, and or could easily suggest a single global event producing most of such all over the world. Being followed by smaller continued catastrophic events over time, directly related to the conditions produced by the global flood. Which would include large scale readjustments of the earths crust, and atmosphere. Both having been radically changed by the events of the global flood, and in a state of transformation unto more settled continuity.

One's world view or faith if you will, determining which narrative laden road, each will travel. Journeys no doubt ending in very different destinations.

Quote from: Amo on Thu Nov 14, 2024 - 08:30:25https://www.livescience.com/8340-world-largest-dinosaur-graveyard-linked-mass-death.html

Quoted article below from link above. Emphasis is mine, my comments in blue.

As the article above suggests, their speculations and theories could explain these mass graveyards. So could the global flood described in holy scripture. The sea described separating Canada from north America could have formed from the global flood as well. Been present for quite some time as a result of that global flood, gradually and or catastrophically draining off some time after the flood. The mass graveyard itself simply being one of the countless graveyards found the world over, where untold numbers of animals fleeing the same catastrophic event, ended up together as they tried to escape doom. Seeking safety or the highest ground in evading the flood, dying together, and eventually laying to rest together wherever the receding flood waters deposited them.

Catastrophic extinction events are now the prevalent explanation for the evidence which most obviously suggests such. Which is in fact all over the world. Which could suggest the scenario described above over and over and over again all over the world, and or could easily suggest a single global event producing most of such all over the world. Being followed by smaller continued catastrophic events over time, directly related to the conditions produced by the global flood. Which would include large scale readjustments of the earths crust, and atmosphere. Both having been radically changed by the events of the global flood, and in a state of transformation unto more settled continuity.

One's world view or faith if you will, determining which narrative laden road, each will travel. Journeys no doubt ending in very different destinations.

There was nothing in that entire article that could be said to support a global flood 4500 or so years ago -- NOTHING.

Quote from: 4WD on Thu Nov 14, 2024 - 08:58:09There was nothing in that entire article that could be said to support a global flood 4500 or so years ago -- NOTHING.

So says one who has decided there is no depiction of a global flood anywhere in holy scripture, no testimony that supports a global flood anywhere concerning the last 6000 years or so the bible chronicles. You're world view will not even allow you to see what scripture plainly states, let alone what a modern science article might suggest or reveal in relation to the same.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2021/04/19/t-rex-mass-death-site-utah-grand-staircase-escalante-monument/7294831002/

Quoted article below from link above. Emphasis is mine.

Quote'The tipping point': First T. rex mass death site in southern US, found in Utah, strengthens evidence of pack behavior

The Tyrannosaurus rex may not have been as solitary as we believed.

In a groundbreaking discovery of the first T. rex mass death site in the southern U.S., announced Monday by the Utah Bureau of Land Management, scientists found evidence of packlike behavior among the famous ancient predator in the Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument.

"The new Utah site adds to the growing body of evidence showing that Tyrannosaurs were complex, large predators capable of social behaviors common in many of their living relatives, the birds," said Dr. Joe Sertich, curator of dinosaurs at the Denver Museum of Nature & Science.

"This discovery should be the tipping point for reconsidering how these top carnivores behaved and hunted across the northern hemisphere during the Cretaceous."

In the past, paleontologists have long debated whether the huge dinosaurs lived and hunted alone or in groups.

However, with other findings of pack formations in Alberta, Canada, and Montana, the Utah finding may fossilize the belief of a social T. rex.

In the Canadian discovery, 12 individuals found over 20 years ago by Dr. Philip Currie, many scientists doubted T. rexes had the brainpower to organize into anything complex and thought it was an isolated case. Montana's site built upon the social theory, but now this third site may bring more certainty to the idea.

At the Rainbows and Unicorns site in the Kaiparowits unit of the monument, named for the unbelievable discoveries found there, scientists have been working toward the social dinosaur conclusion since 2014.

"We realized right away this site could potentially be used to test the social tyrannosaur idea. Unfortunately, the site's ancient history is complicated," said Dr. Alan Titus, a BLM paleontologist.

A pack of four, possibly five, Teratophoneus T. rexes seemed to have died in a seasonal flood after a slow-burn fire between 66 and 100 million years ago. Turtles, fish, rays, alligators and two other kinds of dinosaurs were also found during the dig.

Later, their bones were exhumed by a flowing river and reburied, making the find more perplexing.

The research of Dr. Celina Suarez, an associate professor of geology at the University of Arkansas, and her former Ph.D. student, Dr. Daigo Yamamura, definitively showed the dinosaurs were moving in a pack.

"None of the physical evidence conclusively suggested that these organisms came to be fossilized together, so we turned to geochemistry to see if that could help us," Suarez said. "The similarity of rare earth element patterns is highly suggestive that these organisms died and were fossilized together."

Excavation will continue "into the foreseeable future," according to a press release, and will include more research into the T. rex's behavior.

https://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2021/05/11/four_incredible_dinosaur_graveyards_774316.html

Quoted article below from link above. Emphasis is mine.

QuoteFour Incredible Dinosaur 'Graveyards'

Over their 165 million-year reign on Earth, hundreds of billions of dinosaurs lived and died. Occasionally, they did the latter en masse, making it much easier for us to find their fossilized remains and examine them. Concentrated areas of dinosaur death have become colloquially known as "dinosaur graveyards". The following are some of the most remarkable.

1. The Hilda Mega-Bonebed. Around 75 million years ago, a herd of Centrosaurus that may have numbered in the thousands was swept up in a torrential flood that inundated the lowlands of what is now Alberta. The hapless, top-heavy dinosaurs were dragged into river channels that flowed into the shallow inland sea which cut North America in two, where they drowned and accumulated in a macabre mass. Scavengers feasted upon their fleshy remains.

Today, these centrosaurs' resting place is a jumble of bones roughly the size of 280 football fields in southern Alberta's Dinosaur Provincial Park, a goldmine of ancient history. It is so large that completely excavating it would be impractical.

2. Qhemegha. The village of Qhemegha is situated in the mountains of South Africa's Eastern Cape, and its resident shepherds have long trekked through the varied terrain while fulfulling their daily duties. Over that time, shepherd Dumangwe Thyobeka would notice numerous bones jutting from the landscape. In the wake of one particularly large find, he told village elder and teacher Sginyane Ralane of his discoveries. Ralane then passed the information on to various universities in South Africa. His messages eventually reached Professor Jonah Choiniere from the University of the Witwatersrand in Johannesburg, who, upon visiting Qhemegha, was delighted. His trained eyes spotted bone fragments littering the ground and fossils erupting from almost every bank.

Why is Qhemegha such a rich repository of fossils? As science writer Josh Davis explained, "The large, meandering rivers meant that any animals that died in or near the water would have been washed into the bends of the waterways along with branches and tree trunks. The high sediment content of these rivers then caused the bodies to be rapidly buried before any significant decomposition could take place.

3. Dinosaur National Monument. Straddling the border of Northern Utah and Colorado, at the confluence of the Green and Yampa rivers, rests Dinosaur National Monument. Anyone fit enough to brave the rocky terrain and desert climate can see one of the greatest known assemblages of dinosaur fossils.  Embedded in a steep rock formation are more than 1,500 bones from dinosaurs like Allosaurus, Apatosaurus, Camarasaurus, Diplodocus, and Stegosaurus. What brought all of these diverse fossils together? Scientists think that the wall of rock was once a sandbar on the edge of a large river. Animal carcasses caught in the current may have been deposited in the sandbar, which, over the millennia, turned to rock.

4. Torres del Paine. Ichthyosaurs are not dinosaurs, but the dolphin-like reptiles did live at the same time as the "terrible lizards". In 2014, paleontologists working in Torres del Paine National Park in the Patagonia region of southern Chile unearthed fossils from 46 individuals in a concentrated area. The discoverers think that these animals may have been members of a single pack and were probably drowned at the same time by powerful mudflows from nearby shores, perhaps unleashed by an earthquake or avalanche.

https://www.earthtouchnews.com/discoveries/fossils/what-killed-the-dinosaurs-in-this-fossilised-mass-grave/

Quoted article below from link above. Emphasis is mine, my comments in blue.

QuoteWhat killed the dinosaurs in this fossilised mass grave?

How do you kill a whole group of prehistoric predators? Utah State palaeontologist Jim Kirkland has been pondering this question ever since leading the excavation of several carnivorous dinosaur skeletons buried together not far from Utah's Arches State Park. The dinosaurs were all killed in the same place some 125 million years ago, and after studying the geology of the site, Kirkland and his team think they've identified the culprit.

The unfortunate predators appear to be Utahraptor, a deadly species closely related to Velociraptor, but even larger than the supersized stars of Jurassic World. That impressive size, however, proved no match for the ensnaring power of quicksand.

At least ten skeletons were buried at the site, from a fully grown five-metre (16ft) adult to tiny one-metre (3-foot) babies, but it was tricky for Kirkland and his team to come up with a precise number because the fossils have been so difficult to excavate.

"The bones were so tightly packed, and many of them small and delicate, that we could not get around them to make the block smaller without damaging them," he told me via email.

The solution? Instead of digging out each bone individually, the team decided to pull out the entire group of skeletons in one huge hunk of rock. It took many months of digging over a period of ten years, and the end result was a massive block of rock and bone three metres (9ft) across and weighing nine tonnes.

The site's geology, the scientists found, was very similar to areas where quicksand forms today. But why did so many of these carnivores end up stuck? The answer may lie with the other remains identified within the rock – bones belonging to small plant-eating dinosaurs called iguanodonts. It's easy to imagine one such hapless herbivore getting stuck and struggling in the sticky sand. The commotion attracts a predator on the lookout for an easy meal – but what looks like harmless mud turns out to be a deathtrap.

"Predator traps" like these are known from other fossil sites, such as the La Brea tar pits in California, which preserve an unusually high abundance of Ice Age carnivores for the same reason. But according to Kirkland, this new dinosaur find would be "the first published attribution of a predator death trap due to quicksand."

And palaeontologists are excited about this site for more than the quicksand. Finding so many dinosaurs of one species can be a big deal, notes palaeontologist Mike D'Emic, who wasn't involved in this excavation. What's more, Utahraptor is a dromaeosaur, a type of dinosaur only rarely found in North America, let alone in such large numbers. "That kind of sample would allow scientists to ask a number of questions, such as how long it took Utahraptor to grow up or how its bones and body proportion changed as it grew," D'Emic told me.

One of the biggest questions on Kirkland's mind, though, is whether these predators were hunting together. Movies love to depict such dinosaurs as pack hunters, but there's actually very little direct evidence for this. Were these quicksand-bound dinosaurs moving together as a family group? Or were they all drawn in separately? The answers may lie deeper within the big block, but we may have to wait a while – it's going to take scientists a long time to expose them.

"The preparation will be quite challenging even in the lab," Kirkland told me. "You move a centimetre off the bone in a day," he added in discussion with KUER in Utah. "It's very slow, meticulous work – all has to be done under microscopes on big mounts because it's such a massive specimen."

And until that immense task is complete, we can't draw too many conclusions, cautions D'Emic. "Only when the fossils are brought back to the lab and carefully prepared, as the research team is doing now, can they be positively identified," he told me. "It will be interesting to see what else comes out of the block once it is fully prepared."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quicksand

QuoteQuicksand (also known as sinking sand) is a colloid consisting of fine granular material (such as sand, silt or clay) and water. It forms in saturated loose sand when the sand is suddenly agitated. When water in the sand cannot escape, it creates a liquefied soil that loses strength and cannot support weight. Quicksand can form in standing water or in upward flowing water (as from an artesian spring). In the case of upward-flowing water, forces oppose the force of gravity and suspend the soil particle.

So basically another water related mass grave, assumed to be the result of creatures being caught in quicksand which forms from or in water. The article assumes the animals were trapped in quicksand one at a time in a so called predator trap, but admits it cannot determine if this is so, or they went down as a pack or group. There conclusions no doubt shaped by their world view.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-worlds-largest-fossil-wilderness-30745943/

Quoted article below from link above. Emphasis is mine, my comments in blue.

QuoteThe World's Largest Fossil Wilderness

An Illinois coal mine holds a snapshot of life on earth 300 million years ago, when a massive earthquake "froze" a swamp in time

Finding a fossil in a coal mine is no big deal. Coal deposits, after all, are petrified peat swamps, and peat is made from decaying plants, which leave their imprints in mud and clay as it hardens into shale stone.

But it was a different thing entirely when John Nelson and Scott Elrick, geologists with the Illinois State Geological Survey, examined the Riola and Vermilion Grove coal mines in eastern Illinois. Etched into ceilings of the mine shafts is the largest intact fossil forest ever seen—at least four square miles of tropical wilderness preserved 307 million years ago. That's when an earthquake suddenly lowered the swamp 15 to 30 feet and mud and sand rushed in, covering everything with sediment and killing trees and other plants. "It must have happened in a matter of weeks," says Elrick. "What we see here is the death of a peat swamp, a moment in geologic time frozen by an accident of nature."

.....................................................

The exact kind of catastrophe, that would be connected to global flood scenarios. Though viewed very differently by those of differing world views.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/01/americas/asteroid-dinosaurs-graveyard-scn-scli/index.html

Quoted article below from link above. Emphasis is mine, my comments in blue.

QuoteScientists have found a 'fossil graveyard' linked to the asteroid that killed off the dinosaurs

An international team of scientists has discovered a fossil graveyard containing what it describes as "extraordinary evidence" that an asteroid that hit the Earth around 66 million years ago was responsible for the extinction of the dinosaurs.

The team of paleontologists from the University of Kansas and the University of Manchester found the "motherlode of exquisitely preserved animal and fish fossils" in North Dakota, according to a study published Monday.

The impact of the asteroid, which created the Chicxulub crater beneath Mexico's Yucatan Peninsula, was one of the most destructive events in Earth's history, extinguishing 75% of the planet's animal and plant species.

The devastation caused by the impact included massive tsunami-like surges and "ejecta" – torrents of rocks, like fine sand and small glass beads – the report said.

"A tsunami would have taken at least 17 or more hours to reach the site from the crater, but seismic waves – and a subsequent surge – would have reached it in tens of minutes," said Robert DePalma, the report's lead author.

At the fossil site – Tanis in North Dakota's Hell Creek Formation – the surge left "a tangled mass of freshwater fish, terrestrial vertebrates, trees, branches, logs, marine ammonites and other marine creatures," DePalma, a doctoral student from the University of Kansas, said.

"No other site has a record quite like that," said DePalma. "And this particular event is tied directly to all of us – to every mammal on Earth, in fact. Because this is essentially where we inherited the planet. Nothing was the same after that impact. It became a planet of mammals rather than a planet of dinosaurs."..........................

Many assumptions and could be's attached to theories according to world views. Nevertheless, the destructive powers of watery cataclysm or demise seems to run throughout, regardless of world view. Hmmmm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSQrPgvRCws

Another good one by Answers in Genesis Canada.

https://www.nps.gov/subjects/fossils/what-is-a-fossil.htm

Quote below from link above. Emphasis is mine. My comments in blue.

QuoteDefinition

The word "fossil" has a different meaning in everyday conversations than in its strict scientific usage. In casual conversation, anything that is old, out-of-date, or old-fashioned may be called a fossil. Not so within the fields of paleontology and geology.

The scientific definitions are much more narrow and specific. Although scientific definitions may vary in their exact verbiage, they all restrict the usage of the term to the remains, traces, or imprints of past living organisms found in the geologic or rock record.

The National Park Service uses a specific definition to concisely describe what a fossil is:



Evidence of life preserved in a geologic context.



This definition has two major parts:

* Evidence of life

* Geologic context

The evidence of life part of the definition means that fossils must be either the remains of a living organism or some sort of trace or mark of an organism. Often the remains of the fossil organism have been altered through chemical or physical processes that took place during fossilization, like the minerals in bone being replaced by silica or the recrystallization of minerals in a shell. More rarely, the remains are virtually unaltered as sometimes happens when an animal carcass becomes desiccated in a dry cave. Traces include a variety of footprints, tracks, trails, burrows, and other marks left by organisms while they were alive.



Geologic context is the rock or other sedimentary deposits in which a fossil is present. Fossils may be present in sedimentary rocks that were deposited in a variety of environments, including marine, coastal, tidal flats river channels and their floodplains, lakes, and other. More rarely is the evidence of life preserved in volcanic rocks. Fossils may also occur in caves and soils.



Geologic content is important because it provides critical information about the environments and conditions that the plants and animals lived in. Examining features in sedimentary rocks such as grain size and composition, cross-bedding, and other features can provide a greater understanding about past life and past ecosystems.

Marine - of or relating to the sea

Coastal - shoreline, seashore (created by large bodies of water)

Tidal Flat - muddy level surfaces created by tides and ebbs (of water)

River Channels - channels created by rivers (of water)

Floodplains - plains created by water

Lakes - large bodies of water

According to the above then, most fossils exist in relation to either a watery demise, settlement and burial in watery sediment, and or deposited and buried by watery movements. Rapid burial being the most likely scenario of effective preservation.

While the above article notes the importance of understanding the environment and conditions plants and animals lived in, it strangely does not address the environment or importance of the conditions so very many plants and animals obviously died in. That is to say very watery deaths in an environment which ended their lives, and then preserved them so well as fossils exactly because of the watery conditions which rapidly buried them. Either so rapidly that they were obviously alive and died almost immediately by instant as it were, watery burial, or deposited or buried by watery conditions at varying lengths of time after their deaths. Water being the key element involved in either their death, and final placement and or burial by watery conditions.

Exactly of course, what one would expect to find concerning the immediate and or prolonged effects of a global flood. Watery movements, continual tides and ebbs, channeling, floodplains, and the formation and or drainage of large bodies of water, with continued altercations of the earths surface as well, during all of such. Nothing to see here, move along, mainstream "science" prefers you do not dwell upon such abundant evidences with a global flood world view.

Quote from: Amo on Tue Nov 19, 2024 - 07:03:54Nothing to see here, move along, mainstream "science" prefers you do not dwell upon such abundant evidences with a global flood world view.[/color]

There are abundant evidences of floods throughout the global earth.  There are, however, places where there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever of a flood.  And there is absolutely no evidence of a global flood.

Quote from: 4WD on Tue Nov 19, 2024 - 07:20:51There are abundant evidences of floods throughout the global earth.  There are, however, places where there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever of a flood.  And there is absolutely no evidence of a global flood.

Question.

Leaving the bible out of the mix....

I totally agree that there is seeming evidence of floods from around the qworld.

What might the chances be that these assorted floods did not actually happen at the same time?

Even with carbon dating of things, they cannot pinpoint a specific year....

Or what might be the chance that where these assorted floods took place, it all was based on the Noah flood but only happened where life was at the time because God was cleansing the earth?

For sure... no fish, sea things died then... did they?

Quote from: 4WD on Tue Nov 19, 2024 - 07:20:51There are abundant evidences of floods throughout the global earth.  There are, however, places where there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever of a flood.  And there is absolutely no evidence of a global flood.

https://kgov.com/list-of-evidence-for-the-global-flood#scientific

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhRaZZCxBLk

https://www.icr.org/worldwide-flood/

https://www.icr.org/geological-strata

https://biblicalscienceinstitute.com/geology/overview-of-geologic-evidence-of-the-flood/

https://answersingenesis.org/the-flood/geologic-evidences-for-the-genesis-flood/

https://www.icr.org/article/14290

https://answersingenesis.org/the-flood/flood-evidence/

https://www.icr.org/article/flood-evidence-clearly-seen-geologist/

https://www.globalflood.org

Just exactly what would you consider authentic evidence of a global flood to be, 4WD?

Quote from: Amo on Tue Nov 19, 2024 - 07:57:39https://kgov.com/list-of-evidence-for-the-global-flood#scientific

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhRaZZCxBLk

https://www.icr.org/worldwide-flood/

https://www.icr.org/geological-strata

https://biblicalscienceinstitute.com/geology/overview-of-geologic-evidence-of-the-flood/

https://answersingenesis.org/the-flood/geologic-evidences-for-the-genesis-flood/

https://www.icr.org/article/14290

https://answersingenesis.org/the-flood/flood-evidence/

https://www.icr.org/article/flood-evidence-clearly-seen-geologist/

https://www.globalflood.org

Just exactly what would you consider authentic evidence of a global flood to be, 4WD?

Certainly nothing from irc, answersingenesis, or globalflood.