Christian Forums

Quote from: PeteWaldo on Sun Nov 08, 2015 - 07:56:21We as Christians do not have to speculate, ......

But didn't you go on to do just that?

I couldn't agree more.

So how does scripture interpret apostate Christianity as having something to do with a leopard, bear and lion? I would appreciate very much if you begin your reply by answering that question.

When we search scripture for interpretation through an adjacent hermeneutic, why do you suppose it is that we find Daniel's prophecy uses these very same three figures when describing those kingdom "beasts", also within the same context of the figurative language of a prophetic dream?
(as detailed in the last post on the prior page)

When we close our eyes to such a simple, stunning and profound interpretation revealed by scripture, what else might our having done so, close our eyes to?

"Will" wonder after the beast? Perhaps as John's prophecy looked forward to what was to come in his future.
But what might we find regarding fulfilled prophecy, if we exercise a more scholarly ethnographic hermeneutic of "world", as Strong's suggests:
world
New Testament Greek Definition:
3625 oikoumene {oy-kou-men'-ay}
feminine participle present passive of 3611 (as noun, by
implication of 1093); TDNT - 5:157,674; n f
AV - world 14, earth 1; 15
1) the inhabited earth
1a) the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in
distinction from the lands of the barbarians
1b) the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire
1c) the whole inhabited earth, the world
1d) the inhabitants of the earth, men
2) the universe, the world

If you look at a map of the spiritual condition of the prophet John's whole "world", outside of that tiny little strip of land of Israel protected by the democracy of the Israeli Jewish State, virtually everyone in John's world does indeed wonder after THE false prophet Muhammad's Islamic kingdom "beast".

Besides their being commanded to fight and slay non-Muslims (and specifically Jews and Christians) as Satan binds on them in the Quran, wouldn't you say the following might qualify as devil worship "in the true sense of those words", that is in fact engaged in by not only virtually everyone in John's whole "world" but by 1/4 of mankind around the world today, as articles of their "faith" in THE false prophet Muhammad alone?

Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus ..... but they killed him not, nor crucified him ..... for of a surety they killed him not:-

Surah 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

Do those strike you as words that would be inspired by the jealous fallen angel named Satan?
While I've no sympathy for the apostate church, does even the vast majority of the apostate church deny that Jesus is the Son of God or deny His crucifixion and shed blood?

While suggesting that may fit your pre-conceived notion, does it fit the Koine Greek that indicates a single individual? Try to make sense of your own sentence: "The false prophet are all prophets....."

Virtually 100% of John's world worship the Islamic beast. The pinnacle of worship in Islam is Jihad, as practiced by orthodox followers of THE false prophet Muhammad not only in John's "world" but around much of the rest of the world today.

The tiny little remnant of non-Muslims in John's whole "world", are being wiped out by those that carry the name of the Islamic beast as I write, who not only can't buy or sell but are fleeing for their very lives.

As is happening throughout John's world, even beheading children for refusing to renounce Jesus Christ and parrot the Islamic shahada (the Islamic statement of "faith"). "There is no god by Allah and Muhammad is his messenger".

Like those that contain the very same figures of lion, bear and leopard.

Nor does history.

Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Bing search - muhammad 666

John wasn't prophesying about Peoria Illinois. Through an ethnographic hermeneutic, the prophet John's whole world (outside of Israel) is virtually 100% Muslim. Consider:

Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Anecdotally, many even carry a physical mark or "prayer bump" on their foreheads, from pressing them to the ground 5 times a day while praying in the "vain repetitions of the heathen" as scripture refers to salat. Bing search images for "prayer bump".

As we can see through a more scholarly ethnographic hermeneutic, virtually 100% of John's whole "world" is already marked by the name of the beast - Islam - which would render the mark of the beast a fulfilled prophecy.

Quote from: garee on Fri Oct 24, 2025 - 17:56:03

One thing I would add in those parables the signified tongue of prophecy that use metaphors to give us the unseen spiritual understanding hid from the father of lies called spiritual words.(again hidden understanding)

As a mark 9 times Revelation a sign 2 times. A world of differnce that Satan would make one in the same. Again his lies are not subject to spiritual understanding the gospel the mysteries of His faith .

God will not sent a hunger for the foods of this world that come out as draught but a hunger for hearing the gospel and believing its power  .


Proverbs 23:23 Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.

Mark to represent a promise (God's word does not return void of his gospel understanding .666 the mark of Cain unredeemed mankind 

Signs as that attributed to the unredeemed they must seek after a sign the things seen thy have no powerful faith as prophecy coming from Christ's labor of love , we therefore buy  the gospel truth and sell it not. . . with it pray for understanding.


 

Quote from: garee on Fri Oct 17, 2025 - 18:16:40It would seem you are confused as to the doctrine of the antichrist.


 Satan the lying father of lies who brings false prohecy oral traditons through antichrists' plural called the legion.

Antichrist simple another authroity other than that of sola scriptura.


Mathew 16 showing the works / using Peter as one of the many antichrists' that were there. Peter the serial denier rebuked the unseen Holy Father and forbid the Son of man Jesus from doing his Fathers will .

Its necessary to read the bible before you can believe the author.


Matthew 16: 22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Hmmmm? This message board sure does disappear and reappear a lot. I had been posting on another board, but they started locking down all my threads. Then I couldn't get on them. Then they apparently removed me from their membership. Just as well, they were big on censorship, and even defending the same.

I'm pretty sure I am not the one who is confused about what the bible says, between us, as I have read it many times over, and continue to do so. I am somewhat confused as to exactly what you are saying though, perhaps you could make a little more sense of it, by expounding.

If everyone who ever is mistaken about truth at one time or another, is an antichrist, then I guess we all are or have been at one time or another. Antichrist intends to stand in the place of Christ, denies that Christ came in the flesh, and that He was God's Son, thereby denying the Father also.

Apart from this a great many Christians long before us, also connected the man of sin, and the eleventh or little horn of Daniels prophecies to the antichrist or antichrist system as well. And rightly so, as so very many more Christians have determined and agreed upon these points as well throughout history. Since the leader of the organization and its teachings basically do the same thing as antichrist.

Quote from: michael777 on Wed Jul 06, 2011 - 15:58:46The Beast Revelation

This letter is dedicated to all Christians.

The following letter is a summary of Revelation 13... 

  Christian films often portray that all those who have not received the mark of the beast will be killed, this is a symbolic truth. The circumstances are true, but they missed the real meaning due to some failed interpretations. All those who have not taken the mark are killed, this part is true, but those who have not taken the mark are Hamas. The mark was given during the elections for the president of the Palestinian authority, which was boycotted by Hamas. Hamas has never received the mark. Films like to portray all people as subject to the mark. This part is wrong. It only affects those Palestinians who did not take the mark, and not the whole world. It is only Hamas. This makes the mark as what the letter indicates. It was the indelible ink brand given to those who voted in the Palestinian elections.

The 'beast' concept in the Book of Revelation is applied two ways. It can be about a 'beast kingdom', or a 'beast king' who is over that kingdom. This is really important to distinguish when reading the Revelation 17 Chapter, because the subject changes very quickly within those verses between both beasts.

The Rev.13:1 beast is a system, a kingdom, simply because it is defined as having seven heads, ten horns, and ten crowns. Daniel 7 defined the ten horns as ten kings, so we know the ten horns certainly is not about a single individual. With that first beast of Rev.13 one must stay focused, even though it is using possessive pronouns that appear to point to a singular Antichrist, yet it is a beast kingdom, and not the actual Antichrist beast king.

Starting at Revelation 13:11 with the "another beast", that is about a singular individual, the 'beast king'. He is the one Jesus described as the pseudo-Christ of Matthew 24:23-26, who is to come at the end working great signs, wonders, and miracles to deceive the whole world. He is the 'king' over the bottomless pit of Rev.9. He will be the 7th beast king which John showed in Rev.17, which is about the end of this present world.

Many brethren don't know it, but Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, actually wrote the 4th Chapter of the Book of Daniel. He shows how God punished him by making him live like an animal, among the animals, which is about type of disease that can be documented in medicine. It serves about as clear as a 'beast king' metaphor for Neb as one can get. Neb was king over a beast empire, Babylon, and most likely one of the previous 5 kings that John mentioned that were already past per Rev.17.

Quote from: Amo on Mon Dec 01, 2025 - 09:57:57Hmmmm? This message board sure does disappear and reappear a lot. I had been posting on another board, but they started locking down all my threads. Then I couldn't get on them. Then they apparently removed me from their membership. Just as well, they were big on censorship, and even defending the same.

I'm pretty sure I am not the one who is confused about what the bible says, between us, as I have read it many times over, and continue to do so. I am somewhat confused as to exactly what you are saying though, perhaps you could make a little more sense of it, by expounding.

If everyone who ever is mistaken about truth at one time or another, is an antichrist, then I guess we all are or have been at one time or another. Antichrist intends to stand in the place of Christ, denies that Christ came in the flesh, and that He was God's Son, thereby denying the Father also.

Apart from this a great many Christians long before us, also connected the man of sin, and the eleventh or little horn of Daniels prophecies to the antichrist or antichrist system as well. And rightly so, as so very many more Christians have determined and agreed upon these points as well throughout history. Since the leader of the organization and its teachings basically do the same thing as antichrist.

Thanks again the key decipher the differnce between the word sign used 2 times in revelation and the word mark 9 times. two sided coin one side hidden   Satan like all spiritual words would make them to no efect so that dying mankind would rather seek his lying sign to wonder, wonder, marvel after just as if Christ was still bring new prophecy. The buying and selling does not have to do with worldly goods  God sends famine for hearing the gospel   We are to buy the Gospel truth the mark of His living word and do not sell it with it receive living hope in understanding---- Christ in us the mark of His love  as sign to the unbelieving world .

The mark Cain Not a outward sign-- whatsoever Christ says will come to pass . the old let there be and it was God alone good

AI edited 1. The word "sign" in Revelation — something shown to reveal meaning ✨

The Greek word translated "sign" is sēmeion (σημεῖον), meaning a symbol that points beyond itself to a deeper reality.

For example:

Revelation 12:1

"And there appeared a great wonder (sign) in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun..."

And:

Revelation 12:3

"And there appeared another wonder (sign) in heaven; and behold a great red dragon..."

These signs represent spiritual realities revealed symbolically.

Signs in Revelation function as revelatory symbols, not literal physical objects.

They reveal truth.

2. The word "mark" in Revelation — something identifying allegiance ⚖️

The Greek word translated "mark" is charagma (χάραγμα), meaning an imprint, stamp, or identifying mark.

For example:

Revelation 13:16–17

"He causeth all... to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark..."

This mark identifies belonging or allegiance.

It distinguishes between two spiritual loyalties.

3. Scripture shows God also places His mark or seal on His people 🔒

There is a direct contrast in Revelation:

Revelation 7:3

"Hurt not the earth... till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

And:

Revelation 14:1

"Having his Father's name written in their foreheads."

This seal represents belonging to God.

Paul describes this as well:

Ephesians 1:13

"Ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise."

This is God's identifying mark on believers.

4. The famine for hearing the word of God — a spiritual famine 🌾

You mentioned famine not of bread, but of hearing truth. Scripture says exactly this:

Amos 8:11

"I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread... but of hearing the words of the LORD."

This refers to spiritual deprivation — loss of truth and understanding.

Truth becomes precious.

5. Buying truth without selling it — Scripture uses this exact language 💎

Proverbs 23:23

"Buy the truth, and sell it not."

This means:

Receive truth

Keep truth

Do not exchange truth for error

This aligns with your point about spiritual value rather than material commerce.

6. The mark placed on Cain — a protective sign, not a physical brand

Scripture says:

Genesis 4:15

"The LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him."

The Hebrew word (oth) also means sign or token.

Its purpose was protection and identification.

Not described as a visible brand in detail.

7. The deepest contrast in Revelation: two identities, two allegiances

Revelation presents two spiritual conditions:

Those belonging to God:

Sealed by God

Bear His name

Receive life

Those aligned with the beast:

Receive the beast's mark

Follow deception

This reflects spiritual allegiance.

8. The central truth — Christ in believers is the true life and hope 🌅

Paul describes the true inward reality:

Colossians 1:27

"Christ in you, the hope of glory."

And:

2 Corinthians 1:22

"Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."

This seal represents belonging to God.

9. Signs point, marks identify, seals protect

In summary:

Sign → reveals or points to truth
Mark → identifies allegiance
Seal → confirms belonging to God

All used symbolically and spiritually in Scripture.

Quote from: michael777 on Thu Jan 08, 2026 - 20:48:26  Christian films often portray that all those who have not received the mark of the beast will be killed, this is a symbolic truth. The circumstances are true, but they missed the real meaning due to some failed interpretations. All those who have not taken the mark are killed, this part is true, but those who have not taken the mark are Hamas. The mark was given during the elections for the president of the Palestinian authority, which was boycotted by Hamas. Hamas has never received the mark. Films like to portray all people as subject to the mark. This part is wrong. It only affects those Palestinians who did not take the mark, and not the whole world. It is only Hamas. This makes the mark as what the letter indicates. It was the indelible ink brand given to those who voted in the Palestinian elections.

Quote from: LaSpino3 on Sun Jul 17, 2011 - 16:48:56Michael, I meant no disrespect when I asked if you wrote the article. Also, I find it more advantages to post long articles in shorter parts. Just make the readers aware of it.

I have another question, "When you say Satan still has access in heaven, I assume you mean before the throne of God, is that correct?

But if I am to understand the text, and context of Rev.12, is there any way that Satan and his demons were cast forever out of heaven when Christ assended into heaven, Acts 1:9? Had He not already defeated Satan (death and hell) at the cross? Christ's kingdom was already established in heaven, see the Lord's prayer, but not on earth, making me understand that Satan was cast out. 

Phil LaSpino

Anyone who understands the forming of the Revelation "beast" for the end, which Rev.13:4-8 even says the "dragon" (Satan) will have power over all... nations and peoples at the end for 42 months, should not be thinking that God's work for Satan during this present world ended with the cross.

Per John 18:36, Jesus said His Kingdom is not of this world, otherwise His servants would fight to prevent Him from being delivered up. We've still got a ways to go in this present world, and so does what God has ordained for Satan to do at the end is also included.

To bow down or show reverence to something in a spiritual sense is a serious matter. Scripture continually directs our worship to the unseen God rather than to created dying things.

One man knelt before Jesus, the Son of Man, and said:-----Mark 10:17–18 (KJV)"And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God."

From my understanding of this passage, Jesus directed all glory to His Holy Father, the one good infalible teaching Master.

Peter also illustrates the danger of looking to the visible rather than the invisible. On the mount of transfiguration he wanted to build three tabernacles:

Mark 9:5 (KJV)"Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias."

To me, Peter was still thinking in terms of visible signs. Throughout the Gospels the disciples often desired visible demonstrations before they would fully understand. Yet Jesus continually directed them beyond the visible to the Father's purpose.

The final sign He gave was the sign of Jonah:

Matthew 12:40 (KJV)

"For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

The demonstrations pointed beyond themselves to the finished work of God.

The ceremonial shadows of the Old Testament pointed forward to Christ. They were never the substance themselves. Nadab and Abihu remind us of the danger of adding what God had not commanded. Their offering of strange fire became a warning against altering God's pattern.

The church still has visible demonstrations, but they are signs pointing beyond themselves. Whether believers gather in a house or in a great assembly, the purpose is the same—to bear witness to the unseen work of our Holy Father.

The glory never belongs to the outward sign. It belongs to the invisible God who works in His people. The demonstration is not the source of faith; it points to the One who is.