Christian Forums

Quote from: James Rondon on Sat Nov 03, 2007 - 17:11:33

Quote from: Robert Pate on Fri Nov 02, 2007 - 14:23:25
Jaime

I am back to test your beliefs in the light of the gospel.  I will try my best not to be offensive.

May we all be ready to test your gospel in the light of the Scriptures...

Yeah, dat too.

James
Rondon

The scripture reveals the gospel, but it can only be known by the Spirit.  It is the work of Satan to hide the gospel.  Millions have a bible and read it daily, but do not understand the gospel.  They are blinded by Satan.  Many come to the bible to see what they should do, instead of coming to the bible to see what has been done.  Jesus said, "when you seek me with all of your heart, you will find me."

I only wish you were right.  I only wish millions would think enough of the Bible to carefully look it over for clues about how to live, etc.

Janine

The sole purpose of the Bible is to reveal Jesus Christ and his gospel.  The New Testament is not a Christian Torah.

when one accepts Christ as their savior and they receive the Holy Spirit, It is the work of the Spirit to bring them into the knowledge of the gospel and to produce the Christian life.  Christians are not called to live by laws or rules, but by the Spirit of Christ.  We are not under law or rules, we are under grace.  To live by law or rules is to be under condemnation.

I was, as usual, merely thinking of the benefit to myself if all my neighbors cared at least as much as I do about pleasing God.  Because life is, as you should know, all about me.

Janine

Good thought, but I am afraid that we live in a world that is hostile towards God and his Son Jesus Christ.

Quote from: Robert Pate on Sat Nov 03, 2007 - 18:11:17
James
Rondon

The scripture reveals the gospel, but it can only be known by the Spirit.  It is the work of Satan to hide the gospel.  Millions have a bible and read it daily, but do not understand the gospel.  They are blinded by Satan.  Many come to the bible to see what they should do, instead of coming to the bible to see what has been done.  Jesus said, "when you seek me with all of your heart, you will find me."

Robert
Pate

Why do you have such a problem with the notion of testing your gospel in the light of the Scriptures?

James
Rondon

I said that scripture reveals the gospel.  As far as testing the gospel I don't know what you mean by that.  There is plenty of scripture that confirms that my gospel is correct doctrine.

Quote from: Robert Pate on Sun Nov 04, 2007 - 14:06:04
As far as testing the gospel I don't know what you mean by that.

Robert
Pate

What would it mean to "test [our] beliefs in the light of the gospel"?

Therein lies your answer.

James
Rondon

The gospel calls all doctrines and belief systems into question.

When the veil of the temple was torn from top to bottom that signified the end of not only the Jewish religion, but all religions.  God is no longer mediated through sacrafices, rituals, priest, LAW, rules, or whatever.  Jesus Christ is the end and fulfillment of the Old Covenant, law, and religion.

Christ is the end of the law for righteousness. Romans 10:4.  He fulfilled the law for us, in our name, and on our behalf.  The law has been abolished for those that are in Christ.  If the law has been abolished for those that are in Christ, there cannot be any judgement for those that are in Christ.  No law, No judgement. No condemnation for those that are in Christ.  Romans 8:1.

When Christ died on the cross, we died with him.  our old Adamic nature has been put to death in Christ. Romans 6:6.  Paul said, "I have been crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live." If our old Adamic nature is dead, that means we don't have to obey it any longer. Romans 6:7.  We can are now free to live by the Spirit. This calls all holiness doctrines into question.  Christ has put to death our old Adamic nature, we had nothing to do with it.  We have been made righteous by Christ and not by our own works. This is the end of man trying to please God by what he does. (religion)

The resurrection is the most important event in human history.  The resurrection is God's stamp of approval on the life, and death of Christ.  If there had been one sin that had not been atoned for there would not have been a resurrection and we would still be in our sins.  Christ is now in heaven at the right hand of God.  Our salvation is secure.

The gospel calls into question all denomonationalisms, all religions, all efforts of man to save himself, all efforts of man to try to make himself holy or righteous, all efforts to try to please God by his own works, all of mans righteousness and piety.

God is finished with the human race. All who are in Christ have been made perfect and complete.  All who are outside of Christ are still in their sins, and will be judged by the law and are under condemnation.

In the gospel the only thing left for us to do is to live by faith.  No salvation by works, No judgement, No holiness, Christ is our holiness.  It's over and finished.

Robert
Pate

The Scriptures call all gospels into question. If your gospel is the gospel of Christ, it can only be known by testing it in the light of the Scriptures. I know that you have a hard time with that, and that is because much of what you write contradicts with the Scriptures.

For example, I will not go through your entire last post and respond to all of the error in it... Even so, I will address one of the errors, to demonstrate my above statement:

Quote from: Robert Pate on Sun Nov 04, 2007 - 16:16:11
In the gospel the only thing left for us to do is to live by faith.  No salvation by works, No judgement, No holiness, Christ is our holiness.  It's over and finished.

No holiness? What about Romans 6:19 and 22, 2 Corinthians 7:1, 1 Thessalonians 4:7, 1 Timothy 2:15, Titus 2:3, and Hebrews 12:14?

Interestingly enough, your position allows you to ignore every one of those Scriptures. Why? Because you tie your unscriptrural conclusion ("no holiness") into what you call the "gospel", and then call all Scripture into question based on said conclusion. Thus, you reject any Scripture which contradicts your conclusions, and are completely unwilling to even consider them.

It is a dangerous, deluding, pick and choose hermeneutic that can lead anywhere that you, or anyone else is willing to take it. Why? Because in your mind your conclusions are the "gospel", and everything else, even the Scriptures themselves, must be measured (accepted, or rejected) by them.

James
Rondon

As long as you are in your Adamic body you are a sinner.  You have no holiness.  Nor can you produce any holiness that God will accept.  God only accepts Jesus Christ.  Where does it say that you can become acceptable to God by what you do, or by what you have become.

All of that scripture that you refered me to is law,  I am not under the law.
This is the problem with trying to live by scripture or law, you will never measure up. Tell me James do you obey all of the scripture or do you kind of pick and choose which scripture you will obey and which you will ignore?

James said, if you fail in one part of the law you have failed the whole thing.

No James, you have no holiness. Yes, the scriptures tell you to be holy.  But you know that you are not. So what does this mean? I think it means that you are a hypocrite.

Who says I cannot be holy?

To be holy is to be set apart for God's use.

I can do that.

To be holy does not mean to be sinless.

Janine

Holy: usually translate words derived from a Heb. root (qadash) and Greek (hag-) The basic meaning of qadash is separateness, withdrawl.  It is first applied to God, and is early associated with ideas of purity and righteousness.  Long before the prophetic period the ethical content is plain. Greek hag- is an equivalent of qadash and its history is similar.  beginning as an attribute of Deity the hag- family of words developed two stems, one meaning "holy" the other pure.  The use of words of this family in the LXX to translate the qadash family resulted in a great development of their ethical sense, which was never clear in classical Greek.  What became increasingly evident in the OT is overwhelmingly explicit in the NT that "HOLY" means the pure, loving nature of God, separate from evil.

That "be holy as I am holy" stuff that's repeated over and over again?  He didn't mean it.  I'm sure Robert will let you borrow his scissors.

Marc

The commandment to be Holy is law.  Christians are not under the law, they are under grace.  Not only that as long as we are in these Adamic bodies we are sinners.  But go ahead and wear yourself out trying to be Holy.  As for me I have entered into his rest.

Quote from: Robert Pate on Sun Nov 04, 2007 - 20:07:04
You have no holiness. Nor can you produce any holiness that God will accept.  God only accepts Jesus Christ.

Robert
Pate

Hebrews 12:14 tells us that without holiness "no man will see the Lord". Because your version of the gospel claims that believers "have no holiness", your gospel leaves men without the hope of seeing the Lord. That is not gospel (good news) at all (cf. Gal. 1:6-9).

The Holy Scriptures, which reveal the true gospel of Christ, tell me that it is God's desire for me, as one of His children, to be a partaker of His holiness (cf. Heb. 12:10). Furthermore, because I am a partaker of Christ (Heb. 3:14), I am also called by Christ, through His Spirit to "be holy", to have "fruit unto holiness", and to "perfect holiness in the fear of God" (see the list of Scripture references regarding "holiness" in my earlier post) .

Quote from: Robert Pate on Sun Nov 04, 2007 - 20:07:04
All of that scripture that you refered me to is law,  I am not under the law.

All of those Scriptures were written to followers of Christ. Why would the Holy Spirit inspire those words to be written, to believers, only to be discarded as laws that do not have to be heeded or kept because they are believers? (cf. 1 Cor. 14:33).

Quote from: Robert Pate on Sun Nov 04, 2007 - 20:07:04
This is the problem with trying to live by scripture or law, you will never measure up.

I measure up through Christ (cf. Heb. 10:19-23). It is His Spirit which works in me both to will and do of His good pleasure (Php. 2:13).

Quote from: Robert Pate on Sun Nov 04, 2007 - 20:07:04
Tell me James do you obey all of the scripture or do you kind of pick and choose which scripture you will obey and which you will ignore?

That is all that you do, Robert. You have created (or more particularly, your two foot stack of non-scriptural publications have created) a gospel, supposedly from the Scriptures, which turns around and denies the Scriptures. You ask why someone would live by the Scriptures, but then quote certain Scriptures in order to establish your case. One word: hypocrisy (cf. Prov. 11:9).

Quote from: Robert Pate on Sun Nov 04, 2007 - 20:07:04
James said, if you fail in one part of the law you have failed the whole thing.

Should I take your position, and claim that I do not have to live by Scripture? After all, what you just quoted came from the Scriptures (cf. Jam. 1:8).

Quote from: Robert Pate on Sun Nov 04, 2007 - 20:07:04
No James, you have no holiness. Yes, the scriptures tell you to be holy.  But you know that you are not. So what does this mean? I think it means that you are a hypocrite.

See above regarding holiness, the need for holiness, and hypocrisy.