Christian Forums

Quote from: Johnb on Thu Nov 08, 2007 - 19:08:31
Brian
I will give you the pat CoC answer for that one also.  ( I am waiting on the we must obey the commands folks to answer my questions and don't want then to be distracted by having to answer from the pay book)  Here goes  the theif on the crossdied before the kingdom was established.  Jesus was still alive and could pardon or heal who ever He wanted.  The new covenet was not yet in effect because jesus was not dead.  (kind of like when some one writes a will they can change it or give things to whomever they wish while alive but after they are dead we must go by their will)   Churchmember is that about the jest of it?  Later johnb

Position understood.  However, when Jesus was giving His sermons, teaching His apostles, and answering the pharisees, did He add the disclaimer that they shouldn't follow these teachings until He had died, was buried, and was resurrected?  I don't believe He did.  When He said something, it applied from that moment on.  Anyhow, this is still saying God makes exceptions, even if it's while He was a man.  Is this the truth?

jaime said

I assume this a trick question. So, let me have it, Bro!

No jaime not a trick question and I won't let you have it.  It is simply a matter of consistency.  You IMO are not a legalist nor a true paternist.  There are many commands and approved example in the NT that no group I know of accepts them all.  But if your theology is based on keeping the NT pattern based on commands, approved examples necessary inference and the law of silence.  If we are not bound to keep all commands and approved examples then someone has to decide which ones we must keep and which ones we may ignore.  Who gets to make that choice?  This makes pattern theology based on human reason and not the scripture therefore it is flawed.  I can give some examples of commands and approved examples that are not obeyed or followed  if you wish.  Later Johnb

Quote from: Robert Pate on Thu Nov 08, 2007 - 18:19:54
All that baptism is, is an expression of your faith in Christ.  Outside of that it is nothing.  It is a work, something that you do. We are not saved by our works we are saved by the work of Christ.  I think that anyone that teaches baptism as a means of salvation is under the law and will be judged by the law.

I believe that baptism is far more than just an expression of faith in Christ.  I agree though that baptism is not a means of us being saved, but it is a sacrament, a means of grace, a means of us receiving in this life the forgiveness that we have in Christ by grace through faith.  It is especially powerful in delivering believers from demonic bondage, of cleansing the conscience, of experiencing the forgiveness of God.  We are saved, brought into right relationship with God, accepted by God by grace through faith.  And baptism, communion, prayer, meditating on scripture, fasting, all the spiritual disciplines help us to bring a little of what we have in heaven in Christ to earth in our present reality.  Thus we pray "Thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven!"

Salvation, right relationship with God has always been and will always be by grace through faith.  Abraham, Enoch, David, Moses, Noah, Elijah, Paul, Cornelius, the thief on the cross were all saved by grace through faith. 

Quote from: Sherman Nobles on Thu Nov 08, 2007 - 19:58:49

Quote from: Robert Pate on Thu Nov 08, 2007 - 18:19:54
All that baptism is, is an expression of your faith in Christ.  Outside of that it is nothing.  It is a work, something that you do. We are not saved by our works we are saved by the work of Christ.  I think that anyone that teaches baptism as a means of salvation is under the law and will be judged by the law.

I believe that baptism is far more than just an expression of faith in Christ.  I agree though that baptism is not a means of us being saved, but it is a sacrament, a means of grace, a means of us receiving in this life the forgiveness that we have in Christ by grace through faith.  It is especially powerful in delivering believers from demonic bondage, of cleansing the conscience, of experiencing the forgiveness of God.  We are saved, brought into right relationship with God, accepted by God by grace through faith.  And baptism, communion, prayer, meditating on scripture, fasting, all the spiritual disciplines help us to bring a little of what we have in heaven in Christ to earth in our present reality.  Thus we pray "Thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven!"

Salvation, right relationship with God has always been and will always be by grace through faith.  Abraham, Enoch, David, Moses, Noah, Elijah, Paul, Cornelius, the thief on the cross were all saved by grace through faith. 

There is no grace in the C of C doctrine. There is only law and rules.  You must be baptized or you are not saved is false doctrine and is not according to grace and the gospel.  Your idea of God is that he is a task master ready to crack you on the back with his whip if you do not obey.

There is not an ounce of grace in your doctrine, it is all law. If you live by law, you will be judged by law.  The whole New Testament stands in judgement of you.

Quote from: Robert Pate on Thu Nov 08, 2007 - 20:05:49
There is no grace in the C of C doctrine. There is only law and rules.  You must be baptized or you are not saved is false doctrine and is not according to grace and the gospel.  Your idea of God is that he is a task master ready to crack you on the back with his whip if you do not obey.

There is not an ounce of grace in your doctrine, it is all law. If you live by law, you will be judged by law.  The whole New Testament stands in judgement of you.

Dear Robert,

You must be reading someone else's posts if this last post was meant for me.  I have not said that a person must be baptized, rather a person can be baptized.  Baptism is not something a person must do to be saved, but it is something that a person can do to help bring a little of the salvation he has in heaven because of Christ to experience it on earth.  We are completely saved by the goodness, grace, and forgiveness of God as expressed in the sacrifice of Christ.  He has paid for all of our sins, so that we can have his righteousness through faith.   Are you sure you are reading my posts, or are you just having flashbacks from some previous abusive and oppressive group you were in?  You seem to be very angry; are you ok?

your brother in Christ,
Sherman

Robert
Don't judge so harsh.  The bulk of the CoC is changing.  There is a hard core leadership and a few hard core true believer in pattern theology but most are sheep being led by the radical few and when questioned individually don't buy the "only christian, true church" doctrines.  Later Johnb

Sherman Nobles

This is an open forum the post was for whoever wants to read it.

Tell me Sherman, do you believe that Christ is the New Adam and representative of the human race?  Do you believe that Christ not only died for you, but that he also lived for you?  Do you believe that Christ is our righteousness and outside of him we have nothing?  Here is the big one.
Do you believe that God accepts Jesus Christ and not you, and that you are accepted in him? Do you believe that you are dead and your life is hid with Christ in God? Do you believe that God does not see you, but only sees Christ? 

Quote from: Johnb on Thu Nov 08, 2007 - 20:16:04
Robert
Don't judge so harsh.  The bulk of the CoC is changing.  There is a hard core leadership and a few hard core true believer in pattern theology but most are sheep being led by the radical few and when questioned individually don't buy the "only christian, true church" doctrines.  Later Johnb

Robert follows a very very narrow and lonely path.  

Jaime
Here are some commands the CoC does not follow
Foot washing Command and approved example by the son of God
Let men pray every where lifting up holy hands.
Greet one another with a holy kiss
Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elder of the church to pray and anoint them with oil
Fasting again by the son of God
Forbid not to speak in tongues
Just to name a few
Later Johnb

Jaime

Yes Jaime, the path that I follow is the narrow way, and few there be that find it.

Johnb

Do you mean to tell me that the C of C does not obey all of the commandments in the Bible?

Doesn't that mean that you are a hypocrite.

Quote from: Johnb on Thu Nov 08, 2007 - 20:34:29
Jaime
Here are some commands the CoC does not follow
Foot washing Command and approved example by the son of God
Let men pray every where lifting up holy hands.
Greet one another with a holy kiss
Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elder of the church to pray and anoint them with oil
Fasting again by the son of God
Forbid not to speak in tongues
Just to name a few
Later Johnb

Again, I'm not a CoC man, which I now find I'm in the minority, at least on this board.  Anyhow, Johnb, could you cite those for me in scripture?  I'd like to read them in their context.

Quote from: Johnb on Thu Nov 08, 2007 - 20:34:29
Jaime
Here are some commands the CoC does not follow
Foot washing Command and approved example by the son of God
Let men pray every where lifting up holy hands.
Greet one another with a holy kiss
Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elder of the church to pray and anoint them with oil
Fasting again by the son of God
Forbid not to speak in tongues
Just to name a few
Later Johnb

My church:

has done foot washing
Some lift their hands in praise and prayer
We do greet one another with a holy hug
Our elders have annointed the sick with oil and prayed over them many many times
Our church just got off of a 40 day fast period. (not continuous mind you), but a regular and      focused fasting to draw us closer to God and his leading in our lives
We don't forbid speaking in tongues in worship, but it would probably be frowned on if widely practiced. I sat behind a man that prayed audibly in tongues during the Lord's Supper.

Of course, I don't attend a "standard" c of C. But we are not really on the farthest end of the spectrum either.

Jaime

I take it back you are a true patternist. 

I don't think the folks I was aiming those questions at would fellowship you.  My guess is where you attend they don't do these things to follow the perfect pattern for the "true church" but simply to have a closer walk with God. 

If I had a choice like that I would still be attending a coc.  Later John

Brian here goes
Jesus washing feet  John13

Lift up holy hands  I Tim 2:8

Holy Kiss  Rom.  16:16  (CoC loves the part b of this verse)

Call for elders and anoint with oil  James 5:4

Fasting Matt 9:15
Later Johnb

Quote from: Johnb on Thu Nov 08, 2007 - 20:50:37
Jaime

I take it back you are a true patternist. 

I don't think the folks I was aiming those questions at would fellowship you.  My guess is where you attend they don't do these things to follow the perfect pattern for the "true church" but simply to have a closer walk with God. 

If I had a choice like that I would still be attending a coc.  Later John

Like I have told here before, our church is not fellowshipped by many other c of c's. We've been disfellowshipped or letter whipped by almost every other c of C congregation within a 100 miles.

Quote from: Johnb on Thu Nov 08, 2007 - 21:05:05
Brian here goes
Jesus washing feet  John13

Lift up holy hands  I Tim 2:8

Holy Kiss  Rom.  16:16  (CoC loves the part b of this verse)

Call for elders and anoint with oil  James 5:4

Fasting Matt 9:15
Later Johnb

How about forbidding tongues?

Quote from: Robert Pate on Thu Nov 08, 2007 - 20:05:49
There is no grace in the C of C doctrine. There is only law and rules.  You must be baptized or you are not saved is false doctrine and is not according to grace and the gospel.  Your idea of God is that he is a task master ready to crack you on the back with his whip if you do not obey.

There is not an ounce of grace in your doctrine, it is all law. If you live by law, you will be judged by law.  The whole New Testament stands in judgement of you.

Robert,

This post is beyond asinine.

Quote from: Brian Kelley on Thu Nov 08, 2007 - 21:19:28
How about forbidding tongues?

1 Corinthians 14:39
Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.

OkiMar
DCR

I wish you well in your works doctrine, my Bible says that you are under the law, and that you will be judged by the law.  I would list some scripture but I must go to bed.

Robert,

What are you talking about?  Brian asked where a scripture was, and I simply gave him the reference. 

Gotcha DCR,

I thought you said there was scripture FORBIDDING speaking in tongues.  I had certainly never heard that before!  Thanks for clearing that up!

Brian I let that one off but it is forbid NOT speaking in tongues  I Cor 14:39/
Later Johnb

Agreed, though this gift certainly isn't given to everyone.

Quote from: Robert Pate on Thu Nov 08, 2007 - 20:32:19
Sherman Nobles

This is an open forum the post was for whoever wants to read it.

Tell me Sherman, do you believe that Christ is the New Adam and representative of the human race?  Do you believe that Christ not only died for you, but that he also lived for you?  Do you believe that Christ is our righteousness and outside of him we have nothing?  Here is the big one.
Do you believe that God accepts Jesus Christ and not you, and that you are accepted in him? Do you believe that you are dead and your life is hid with Christ in God? Do you believe that God does not see you, but only sees Christ? 

Robert,

I agree 100% with each of the statements you just made.  Yes I believe that Jesus died for me so that I might have his life.  I thank God every day that I don't even have to think about trying to approach him in my twisted righteousness, but can freely approach Him clothed in the righteousness of Christ.  I am accepted in Christ, not because of anything of myself. In fact, inspite of everything about myself, I am accepted in Christ.  I do not strive for salvation; rather, I thankfully accept the salvation of Christ as a free gift with no strings attached! 

And concerning your previous post, so instead of just judging me an unbeliever, you've judged everyone but you an unbeliever.  You must be an awefully lonely man.  I'm sorry you're so isolated; it's not healthy.

Sherman
Nobles

Not only am I a bitter old man with Physco problems, I am also separated and lonely. How can you make all of these evaluations, are you a physciatrist?  You are trying to put me down because I don't agree with your Pentecostal doctrine.  So you label me as an old fool.  What you really need to do is repent and embrace Christ and the gospel.

Quote from: Robert Pate on Thu Nov 08, 2007 - 22:06:12
OkiMar
DCR

I wish you well in your works doctrine, my Bible says that you are under the law, and that you will be judged by the law.  I would list some scripture but I must go to bed.

I concur in one respect: I am under law (and so are you). I think you are more correctly referring to The Law (i.e. Law of Moses).

OkiMar

I do not consider myself to be under the law.  I do not practice religion.  I do not observe days like Sunday. I do not advocate baptism or any kind of works for salvation. I do not even try to keep the law.  I live by the Spirit of Christ. I consider myself to be just another sinner saved by grace apart from the law.

I believe that Christ fulfilled and kept the law for me.  This is why I am not concerned about sin and trying to be Holy.  Christ is my righteousness.  My motivation in life is the gospel and the grace of God in Jesus Christ.

Robert,

That sounds very antimonian to me.

I shouldn't say this; I know it will do no good, however, I have once again given up trying to communicate with Robert Pate.  He has responded to references to scripture by saing that the speaker is wrong if the speaker contradicts his point.  He is willing to conform everything else to his own view.  What use is there for discussion? 

Quote from: Robert Pate on Fri Nov 09, 2007 - 10:49:58
Sherman
Nobles

Not only am I a bitter old man with Physco problems, I am also separated and lonely. How can you make all of these evaluations, are you a physciatrist?  You are trying to put me down because I don't agree with your Pentecostal doctrine.  So you label me as an old fool.  What you really need to do is repent and embrace Christ and the gospel.

Well, Robert,

It seems that you completely misunderstand my posts. I haven't said that you are a fool or an old man with Physco problems.  I don't know you personally. Much less do I know how involved you are in other's lives, whether you are isolated and lonely or not.  Based solely upon your posts I noted that it's possible that you are lonely and bitter. Your posts sound that way to me. 

I hope that you're not lonely, isolated, and bitter.  That's a terrible way to live. Rather, I hope that you are filled with God's Love and have wonderful relationships filled with the love of God.

It seems that our conversation has become adversarial, and I'm sorry if I've offended you.  That was not my intention.  Concerning the other things you said about me, well, I don't think it would benefit either you, I, or anyone else who reads this post to continue the discussion.

I do pray that you'll be filled with the love of God, and blessed with increasing wisdom, joy, and peace.

Blessings,
Sherman

Quote from: Robert Pate on Fri Nov 09, 2007 - 14:40:55
OkiMar

I do not consider myself to be under the law.  I do not practice religion.  I do not observe days like Sunday. I do not advocate baptism or any kind of works for salvation. I do not even try to keep the law.  I live by the Spirit of Christ. I consider myself to be just another sinner saved by grace apart from the law.

I believe that Christ fulfilled and kept the law for me.  This is why I am not concerned about sin and trying to be Holy.  Christ is my righteousness.  My motivation in life is the gospel and the grace of God in Jesus Christ.

um then why did Jesus say, be ye perfect (holy) as I am perfect (holy).
Yes the grace of God in Christ did save us from eternal hell and seperation of God, and brought us into relationship with the Father, but it also released us from the bondage of sin. Where has God or Jesus ever called a saint, or child of God, a sinner? No where. As in a post below, i gave an example of a man in a top floor of a burning building, a fireman comes and rescues him, will the fireman take him out of the building to safety, or will he take him to the second floor and say, 'you are saved' even though you are still in the fire, you are at the bottom now, i rescued you from the top floor. No! he will take him out of the danger, out of the fire. That is what Jesus did, took us out of sin by putting His spirit of love in us, and now being a child of God, God promises to give us a way of escape from every sin. Not only that but spiritual armor to resist satan and his snares. We have no chains of sin holding us down. We are free in Christ to resist satan and sin. A sinner is someone who loves and practices sin, sin is second nature to them. No sinner will inherrit the kingdom of heaven. If we live in the spirit and have a renewing of our mind, we can resist the desires of the flesh. Just like Peter when he was walking on water. When his eyes were on Jesus and his faith at work, he walked on water, when he turned his eyes to the world (flesh) he sank. But we do have the power to walk on water in us, it is Christ. It is when we turn to our flesh we sin, and that is when God will rebuke us, and chastise us, to wake us up so we realize we have sinned, and then REPENT (Turn away from that sin) and ask for forgiveness. Then we will be back on track, living Godly lives and presenting our bodies a living sacrifice, HOly and Exceptable to God. Tell me when has God ever said sinners were exceptable to Him?

OkiMar

You adhere to a Holiness doctrine.  You want to bring the not yet into the now.  As long as we are in these Adamic bodies we are sinners.  All that Christ has done for us in his life, death and resurrection is to our account.

God has given us the first fruits of the Spirit, which is the down payment.  We are not totally sanctified yet.  If you were totally sanctified God would take you to heaven.

While we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.

Colossians 3:1-4 says, that we are dead and our life is hid with Christ in God.  We live by hope and faith not by sight.

Quote from: Robert Pate on Mon Nov 12, 2007 - 13:06:08
OkiMar

You adhere to a Holiness doctrine.  You want to bring the not yet into the now.  As long as we are in these Adamic bodies we are sinners.  All that Christ has done for us in his life, death and resurrection is to our account.

God has given us the first fruits of the Spirit, which is the down payment.  We are not totally sanctified yet.  If you were totally sanctified God would take you to heaven.

While we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.

Colossians 3:1-4 says, that we are dead and our life is hid with Christ in God.  We live by hope and faith not by sight.

i disagree. and do you hold to the 'no holds barred in sin' doctrine? Not one time has God or Jesus called a saved born again Christian a sinner. But rather we are called, saints, Sons of God, the Righteousness of God, etc. Why would God keep us what He saved us from? the reason we are still here on earth is to spread the Gospel. We are already seated in heavenly places and given heavenly authority on earth. Nor shall any sinner inherrit the kingdom of God. We are saints who, when we turn our eyes off Christ, and turn to the flesh, sin. But a sinner  is one who both loves and practices sin. Saints can not practice sin nor love sin, we infact hate sin, as God hates sin. We have been given the power to resist satan and sin, Jesus freed us from the bandage of sin, so we are no longer slaves to sin. Not only that, As Children of God, He provides a way of escape from EVery Sin.
Jesus also said, be ye perfect as I am perfect (and as our Father in heaven is perfect).

NotE: We do not have the power in ourselfs to resist sin, but the spirit of God in us. The HS is more than just a downpayment, it is also a helper, and guide and means of knowing the mind of God.