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Kamakaz

Now I know why you are not very interested in the gospel and in the grace of God.  You don't need it.

Paul said that he was the "Chief of all sinners."

John said,  If we say we have no sin the truth is not in us.

Paul also said, that he was a wretched sinner in Romans 7:14-25.

In order for you not to be a sinner you would have to fulfill God's Holy Law, and be like Christ.

Do you love God with all of your heart mind and strength, and your neighbor as yourself?  Regardless of how you answer, you don't.

If you did, you would not be on the computer you would be down at the homeless shelter.

I am afraid that you are the worst kind of a sinner, you are one that doesn't think he is, just like the Pharisees.

2 wierd wongs don't make a white.  Later Johnb

Quote from: Robert Pate on Mon Nov 12, 2007 - 13:06:08
OkiMar

You adhere to a Holiness doctrine.  You want to bring the not yet into the now.  As long as we are in these Adamic bodies we are sinners.  All that Christ has done for us in his life, death and resurrection is to our account.

God has given us the first fruits of the Spirit, which is the down payment.  We are not totally sanctified yet.  If you were totally sanctified God would take you to heaven.

While we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.

Colossians 3:1-4 says, that we are dead and our life is hid with Christ in God.  We live by hope and faith not by sight.

I think you meant to address this to someone else.

OkiMar

I thought it was for you.  If the shoe doesn't fit, I guess it's not yours.

Quote from: Robert Pate on Mon Nov 12, 2007 - 17:06:31
Kamakaz

Now I know why you are not very interested in the gospel and in the grace of God.  You don't need it.

Paul said that he was the "Chief of all sinners."

John said,  If we say we have no sin the truth is not in us.

Paul also said, that he was a wretched sinner in Romans 7:14-25.

In order for you not to be a sinner you would have to fulfill God's Holy Law, and be like Christ.

Do you love God with all of your heart mind and strength, and your neighbor as yourself?  Regardless of how you answer, you don't.

If you did, you would not be on the computer you would be down at the homeless shelter.

I am afraid that you are the worst kind of a sinner, you are one that doesn't think he is, just like the Pharisees.

Robert,

You have no business making this kind of condemnatory statement about any one of us here.  I think you owe this gentleman an apology, the log is stuck in your eye, sir. 

da525382

Are you his father? let him answer for himself. He claims that he doesn't sin

Quote from: Robert Pate on Mon Nov 12, 2007 - 22:24:40
da525382

Are you his father? let him answer for himself. He claims that he doesn't sin

Okay, I'm on......show me exactly where he claims he doesn't sin, that he is sinless.  And what's with the remark about me being his father? Sorry, I'm not following that one.

da525382

See post #312.  He thinks he has attained.

Quote from: Robert Pate on Tue Nov 13, 2007 - 07:48:30
da525382

See post #312.  He thinks he has attained.

No, he absolutely does not. Here is a quote from that post you have deliberately misconstrued for the reader here:

QuoteIt is when we turn to our flesh we sin, and that is when God will rebuke us, and chastise us, to wake us up so we realize we have sinned, and then REPENT (Turn away from that sin) and ask for forgiveness.

Again, this is not a statement that he does not ever nor will he ever sin as a child of God.

<< 'scuze the tangent >>

Quote from: SammySmile on Wed Mar 14, 2007 - 22:21:14
In the previous thread, James Rondon wrote: 
Here is how I understand it, from the Greek, from the context, and from the passages underview: Noah and his family were saved in the ark. The persecuted believer is saved / rescued in / from his or her suffering (baptism / immersion / overwhelming) for the sake of Christ, which is the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ (one can kill the body, but because of the resurrection of Jesus, a glorified body awaits the persecuted believer). As far as "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh" is concerned, Peter clarified this to demonstrate that his use of the word "baptism" did not mean "water baptism".
Very interesting and very viable interpretation. 

Um, no.  Peter clarified the point -- the baptism/water wasn't "powered" by soap, by bathing, by being a bath meant to wash off dirt.  The power of the moment comes from somewhere and Someone else.  Peter's anti-bathing comment does not preclude < cue sarcastic puckered-lemon voice > "water baptism" < /sarcasm >, not at this spot in Scripture.

<< /tangent >>

Quote from: Robert Pate on Mon Nov 12, 2007 - 22:24:40
da525382

Are you his father? let him answer for himself. He claims that he doesn't sin

first of all i have never claimed i do not sin, but rather i do not hold to the title of sinner.

a sinner is one who loves and practices sin. I do not love sin, I hate sin.
nor do i practice sin, and I do have a conviction of sin (which means that I have guilt for when I do sin, which sinners do not have, they could care less what God thinks of their sinning).

And second you do not know me, so how do you know at what level i am at in resisting the tempation of sin? Judge not, lest ye be judged, for with the same manner you judge so you will be judged. Once saved, God promises a way of escape from EVERY sin, which means it is possible to resist every sin. I do not claim to be at that level, but niether do i claim that it is not possible for one to reach that level. What do you do with the scripures where Jesus said, be ye perfect as I am perfect? I know what most sinners do with it, they deny what it says, or try to change what it says, but their is no perfection in sin.

But i will not sink to your level and flat out call you unsaved or a sinner or any other name. that is between God and you, just as between God and me, and i am convident in my position with my heavenly Father, thank you very much.

Semantics.

Quote from: da525382 on Tue Nov 13, 2007 - 07:53:27

Quote from: Robert Pate on Tue Nov 13, 2007 - 07:48:30
da525382

See post #312.  He thinks he has attained.

No, he absolutely does not. Here is a quote from that post you have deliberately misconstrued for the reader here:

QuoteIt is when we turn to our flesh we sin, and that is when God will rebuke us, and chastise us, to wake us up so we realize we have sinned, and then REPENT (Turn away from that sin) and ask for forgiveness.

Again, this is not a statement that he does not ever nor will he ever sin as a child of God.

thanks for defending me brother while i was away. I appreciate it very much. May our Father bless you and yours today.

As for my reply i need only looked closer at who made such a comment and i could have dismissed it all together, as it is no suprise. The harsh words that come out of 'believers' mouths. (the power of life and death are in the tongue) thank you for speaking words of life while others love to speak words of death, of discouragenent, of anger of self righteousness, of putting other brothers and/or sisters in Christ down.

Quote from: janine on Tue Nov 13, 2007 - 08:18:45
Semantics.

It is not semantics.

Quote from: da525382 on Tue Nov 13, 2007 - 08:44:53

Quote from: janine on Tue Nov 13, 2007 - 08:18:45
Semantics.

It is not semantics.

I personally believe it is, but I defend to the death your right to say it is not.

Kamakaz

You can call me a sinner.  It will not offend me, because I know that it is true.  If Paul referred to himself as the "chief of all sinners."  I to am a sinner.

You will never reach anyone for Christ unless you confess to them that you are a sinner, a saved sinner.  Nothing turns off the unsaved more than someone who comes across with a holier than thou attitude. The only thing that makes us different from the unsaved is our faith in Christ.  I know of some unsaved people that are living very righteous and moral lives, but they have no faith in Christ, they are lost.

You project a pious and self righteous attitude when you do not identify with humanity, we are all sinners some are saved, some are not.

robert,

no i will not call you a sinner. I will call you what God has called you, a Son of God, a saint, the righteousness of God in Christ, a brother in Christ.

you are really judgemental of people that you do not know. You say i am not saved, you say i am self-righteous, yet you do not know me. I am not self-righteous, i am Christ-righteous! I am the righteousness of God in Christ JEsus. Am I perfect? No, not yet. One day I will be. I make it clear that I have not reached perfection, only that it is my aim. I do also say that I am much closer to that goal than i was years ago. But I also say, that it is not me, but Christ in me, so beleive it or not, I can reach people and i do not give a self righteous attitutude, but only a Christ-righteous attitude. And it is confidence in Christ that does reach people,that is what they need. A strong believe that our Savior can and does change our lives for good. But someone who states the lowely sinners cry, shows no confidence to others that Christ can do anything more than save them from hell (which is still good) but He can do so much more, He can make this life better for us, if we let Him. But if you are stuck on sin, how can you grow? What r u growing to, a better sinner?

Quote from: Jaime on Tue Nov 13, 2007 - 09:07:32

Quote from: da525382 on Tue Nov 13, 2007 - 08:44:53

Quote from: janine on Tue Nov 13, 2007 - 08:18:45
Semantics.

It is not semantics.

I personally believe it is, but I defend to the death your right to say it is not.

Okay,  my reference to semantics and yours perhaps is different. I am involved in a discussion with a brother here who has called another brother, and I quote(emphasis mine):

QuoteDo you love God with all of your heart mind and strength, and your neighbor as yourself?  Regardless of how you answer, you don't.

If you did, you would not be on the computer you would be down at the homeless shelter.

I am afraid that you are the worst kind of a sinner, you are one that doesn't think he is, just like the Pharisees.

If this is a case of semantics, then may God have mercy on us all.  This condemnation of another does not belong here.  That is not an issue of semantics, so no, I cannot ever agree with this as an issue of semantics.   If it is, then may we simply throw scriptures to the wind and let them fly and land where they will, for they become nothing but mush, and worse than that, nothing but weapons, which they were never intended to be for one another.  As far as I am concerned, it is an issue to be dealt with swiftly by a moderator.  Obviously, that stands as nothing but my opinion.  Yet, I want to make sure that it stands.  Mr. Kamakaz is owed an apology.

Quote from: janine on Tue Nov 13, 2007 - 08:09:00
<< 'scuze the tangent >>

Quote from: SammySmile on Wed Mar 14, 2007 - 22:21:14
In the previous thread, James Rondon wrote: 
Here is how I understand it, from the Greek, from the context, and from the passages underview: Noah and his family were saved in the ark. The persecuted believer is saved / rescued in / from his or her suffering (baptism / immersion / overwhelming) for the sake of Christ, which is the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ (one can kill the body, but because of the resurrection of Jesus, a glorified body awaits the persecuted believer). As far as "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh" is concerned, Peter clarified this to demonstrate that his use of the word "baptism" did not mean "water baptism".
Very interesting and very viable interpretation. 

Um, no.  Peter clarified the point -- the baptism/water wasn't "powered" by soap, by bathing, by being a bath meant to wash off dirt.  The power of the moment comes from somewhere and Someone else.  Peter's anti-bathing comment does not preclude < cue sarcastic puckered-lemon voice > "water baptism" < /sarcasm >, not at this spot in Scripture.

<< /tangent >>

What's with the tangent? By the way, that quote comes from a greater context. If you would like to discuss this passage, or this quote with the actual author, I would be happy to do so. Perhaps on another thread, or on the thread from which the quote was actually taken? After all, I really couldn't make a lot of sense out of your post. Less attempts at witticism, and more attempts at coherency would help.

Naaah, no need.  I already know what you believe on the point.

And re: the "semantics", I should have used a rifle instead of a shotgun, my bad.

The insistence that no Christian could ever in any way or context wear the label "sinner" arises, in my opinion, from a quirky definition of the word, as defined and championed by the one who takes that stance.  Thus, semantics.

As for leaping upon an insult with my Moderator boots on, I tend to do that more often when I actually see the insult.  Was only skimming the thread.  Perhaps Lee F, OD and Wiley will see it better than I did.

I wonder if you do know what I believe. Regardless, it's not a matter of what I believe, or what you believe, but what the Scriptures say and mean. As for the rest of what you said (i.e. "semantics", insults, and the mention of other moderators), again, I am not following you.

Quote from: Robert Pate on Tue Nov 13, 2007 - 10:02:51
You project a pious and self righteous attitude when you do not identify with humanity, we are all sinners some are saved, some are not.

Does that realization lead to a shrugging of the shoulders, or to a broken heart and a godly sorrow which works repentance?

Quote from: James Rondon on Tue Nov 13, 2007 - 14:16:46
I wonder if you do know what I believe. Regardless, it's not a matter of what I believe, or what you believe, but what the Scriptures say and mean. As for the rest of what you said (i.e. "semantics", insults, and the mention of other moderators), again, I am not following you.

I was talking to da525382.

Quote from: da525382 on Tue Nov 13, 2007 - 12:21:04

Quote from: Jaime on Tue Nov 13, 2007 - 09:07:32

Quote from: da525382 on Tue Nov 13, 2007 - 08:44:53

Quote from: janine on Tue Nov 13, 2007 - 08:18:45
Semantics.

It is not semantics.

I personally believe it is, but I defend to the death your right to say it is not.

Okay,  my reference to semantics and yours perhaps is different. I am involved in a discussion with a brother here who has called another brother, and I quote:

QuoteDo you love God with all of your heart mind and strength, and your neighbor as yourself?  Regardless of how you answer, you don't.

If you did, you would not be on the computer you would be down at the homeless shelter.

I am afraid that you are the worst kind of a sinner, you are one that doesn't think he is, just like the Pharisees.

If this is a case of semantics, then may God have mercy on us all.  This condemnation of another does not belong here.  That is not an issue of semantics, so no, I cannot ever agree with this as an issue of semantics.   If it is, then may we simply throw scriptures to the wind and let them fly and land where they will, for they become nothing but mush, and worse than that, nothing but weapons, which they were never intended to be for one another.  As far as I am concerned, it is an issue to be dealt with swiftly by a moderator.  Obviously, that stands as nothing but my opinion.  Yet, I want to make sure that it stands.  Mr. Kamakaz is owed an apology.

I am pretty sure da525382 was referring to this post for the mod's. Which is not an untypical repley from this person. But I am able to take the firey darts hurled at me, for my believes. I really do not appreciate someone saying I am not saved, or that I do not love God, Jesus, etc. We can disagree on points, but these types of comments do go to far in my opinion.

We are to live our lives before the Lord as sinners.  Saved sinners, but still sinners.  Sin is a transgression of God's law.  We do not love God with all of our heart, nor do we love our neighbor as ourself.

1st John says, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." It is mentally and spiritually healthy to confess our sinner hood.

Those who are striving for holiness either do not understand the gospel or are just down right religious.  Then again there is a Christian life to be lived.
We are called to be witnesses for Christ and his gospel. I use to strive for holiness but no longer practice that. I now try to be all things to all men that I might win some. If you project that holiness attitude you will alienate the unsaved.

In the gospel we have the freedom to join the human race and become one with them.  Jesus was a friend of sinners, the self righteous Pharisees had nothing to do with him. It was the prostitutes, tax collectors, the outcast that accepted him, and believed upon him.

Quote from: janine on Tue Nov 13, 2007 - 14:24:03

Quote from: James Rondon on Tue Nov 13, 2007 - 14:16:46
I wonder if you do know what I believe. Regardless, it's not a matter of what I believe, or what you believe, but what the Scriptures say and mean. As for the rest of what you said (i.e. "semantics", insults, and the mention of other moderators), again, I am not following you.

I was talking to da525382.

Thanks for the clarification.

Quote from: Robert Pate on Tue Nov 13, 2007 - 14:57:19
We are to live our lives before the Lord as sinners.

Book, chapter and verse, please?

Quote from: Robert Pate on Tue Nov 13, 2007 - 14:57:19
Those who are striving for holiness either do not understand the gospel or are just down right religious.

Or... They actually read their Bible, and believe it.

Quote from: Robert Pate on Tue Nov 13, 2007 - 14:57:19
I use to strive for holiness but no longer practice that.

Then, to quote Jesus, "repent, and do the first works".

Quote from: Robert Pate on Tue Nov 13, 2007 - 14:57:19
In the gospel we have the freedom to join the human race and become one with them.

"Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God."

James
Rondon

You are pulling lines out of my post that are out of context.

Do you not believe that it was the prostitutes and tax collectors that accepted Jesus and believed upon him.  Why was this James?

Why did Paul say I can be all things to all men that I may win some?

Why did Paul refer to himself as "The chief of all sinners"

Why does Hebrews tell us to cease from our works and enter into his rest?

Why does 1st John say, "that if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us?"

We have addressed all those points, they are in the posts.

what about the questions i possed? you have yet to reply to them as far as i have seen, if i missed it, what post was it?

Kamakaz

I knew of a missionary, this was a very dedicated missionary. He was single and didn't have much of a family. He went to Africa to preach the gospel to one of the most hostile tribes that ever existed. How do you suppose that he reached them with the gospel?  He went into their camp and became one of them.  He wore their garb, he ate their food, he slept with them, he learned their language.  The only difference between them and he was that he was white. He was very successful in introducing the gospel to them, some in that tribe became missionarys themselves and spread the gospel to surrounding tribes.

Quote from: Robert Pate on Tue Nov 13, 2007 - 15:50:16
Kamakaz

I knew of a missionary, this was a very dedicated missionary. He was single and didn't have much of a family. He went to Africa to preach the gospel to one of the most hostile tribes that ever existed. How do you suppose that he reached them with the gospel?  He went into their camp and became one of them.  He wore their garb, he ate their food, he slept with them, he learned their language.  The only difference between them and he was that he was white. He was very successful in introducing the gospel to them, some in that tribe became missionarys themselves and spread the gospel to surrounding tribes.

i do not see the point of that story? So only a 'sinner' can get in touch with other people? 'Saints' can not do this as well? No one says we do not nor can not relate to sin, for all HAVE sinned and fallen short...so we can relate just as well with common folk.

Kamakaz

What is that saying?  So heavenly minded that you are of no earthly good.

Quote from: Robert Pate on Tue Nov 13, 2007 - 15:20:41
James
Rondon

You are pulling lines out of my post that are out of context.

So, are we to live our lives before the Lord as sinners, or not?

Are you striving for holiness, or not?

Are you looking to become one with the world, or not?

Quote from: Robert Pate on Tue Nov 13, 2007 - 15:20:41
Do you not believe that it was the prostitutes and tax collectors that accepted Jesus and believed upon him.  Why was this James?

It wasn't because He was a sinner, just like them. And it wasn't because He partook with them in their sins. He accepted them for the same reason He accepts any of us: by His grace and mercy, through repentance, and faith in Him.

Quote from: Robert Pate on Tue Nov 13, 2007 - 15:20:41
Why did Paul say I can be all things to all men that I may win some?

Not because he partook with other men in their sins.

Quote from: Robert Pate on Tue Nov 13, 2007 - 15:20:41
Why did Paul refer to himself as "The chief of all sinners"

He didn't. He referred to himself as the chief of sinners whom Christ came into the world to save.

Quote from: Robert Pate on Tue Nov 13, 2007 - 15:20:41
Why does Hebrews tell us to cease from our works and enter into his rest?

Why does the very next verse say, "Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief"?

Quote from: Robert Pate on Tue Nov 13, 2007 - 15:20:41
Why does 1st John say, "that if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us?"

Why does it say, just 3 verses later, "these things I write unto you, that ye sin not"?

James
Rondon

You are implying that I believe that Christians should sin. By your twisted way.

Where did I imply anything? I simply addressed what you said.

By the way, since I took the time to answer your questions, I would appreciate it if you answered mine.