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but if you are not growing and maturing to the perfection Jesus spoke of and commanded then there is something wrong with us. Sadly I think america and its morral decay even in the church has set us way way way way back, including myself.

Quote from: kamakaz on Wed Nov 14, 2007 - 14:55:55
but if you are not growing and maturing to the perfection Jesus spoke of and commanded then there is something wrong with us. Sadly I think america and its morral decay even in the church has set us way way way way back, including myself.

And I would postulate that moral decay in America should be irrevalent to the Christian community.  The bible specifically states that we are to submit ourselves to the government insomuch as it does not require us to sin.

The entire problem with the Church and christiandom is that we are basically deferring our responsibilities as individuals to a government that has always been secular in nature.

I hardly think America is alone in its immorality

Quote from: Tantor on Wed Nov 14, 2007 - 15:06:35

Quote from: kamakaz on Wed Nov 14, 2007 - 14:55:55
but if you are not growing and maturing to the perfection Jesus spoke of and commanded then there is something wrong with us. Sadly I think america and its morral decay even in the church has set us way way way way back, including myself.

And I would postulate that moral decay in America should be irrevalent to the Christian community.  The bible specifically states that we are to submit ourselves to the government insomuch as it does not require us to sin.

The entire problem with the Church and christiandom is that we are basically deferring our responsibilities as individuals to a government that has always been secular in nature.

yes, but i was thinking more on the lines of the immorrality in the church,  homosexuality, open sexual relationships, lieing, cheating, stealing, etc. we have invited the world in and instead of influencing and changing the world we let the world enfluence and change us.

Kamakaz

There is a big problem with perfectionism.  For one thing it is not attainable.  Try as you may, you will fall short of what God requires, which is total perfection by obedience to his law. If you fail just one time, that's it, you are now a sinner.  There is no forgiveness under the law.  James said, if you fail in one point of the law you have failed the whole thing.

Another problem with perfectionism is that those who practice it see little to no value in the gospel, simply because they are trying to become acceptable to God by their obedience to the law.  They are more occupied with their righteousness than they are with the righteousness of Christ.

In the gospel Christ has provided us with his righteousness, but it does not become ours until we shed these Adamic bodies. We look forward to our inheritance which is to be righteous like Christ.

Quote from: Robert Pate on Wed Nov 14, 2007 - 15:47:18
Kamakaz

There is a big problem with perfectionism.  For one thing it is not attainable.  Try as you may, you will fall short of what God requires, which is total perfection by obedience to his law. If you fail just one time, that's it, you are now a sinner.  There is no forgiveness under the law.  James said, if you fail in one point of the law you have failed the whole thing.

Another problem with perfectionism is that those who practice it see little to no value in the gospel, simply because they are trying to become acceptable to God by their obedience to the law.  They are more occupied with their righteousness than they are with the righteousness of Christ.

In the gospel Christ has provided us with his righteousness, but it does not become ours until we shed these Adamic bodies. We look forward to our inheritance which is to be righteous like Christ.

so Jesus was commanding us to do something that is unattainable? it was not a suggestion but a command. Be ye perfect as I am perfect.

And it would not put anyone under the law, that is the OT covenant, we are under the new covenant, so when we mess up we repent and ask forgiveness, it is forgiven by our Father, and it is no more, as if it never were, which brings us back to the righteousness of God in Christ. what more glory is there for His children to grow and become more like Christ (sinnless) than to just give up and mallow in their sins.

Quote from: kamakaz on Wed Nov 14, 2007 - 15:20:01
yes, but i was thinking more on the lines of the immorrality in the church,  homosexuality, open sexual relationships, lieing, cheating, stealing, etc. we have invited the world in and instead of influencing and changing the world we let the world enfluence and change us.

I see a lot more issues then homosexuality, and the other issues you state..

Obesity is more offensive to me then homosexuality for example... but both are equated equally as sin in the scriptures.  Yet I see a TON of obese gluttons in church every

And the main problem we christians have is that we have let ourselves get dragged into politics and have thus opened us up for scrutiny.

Christ was apolitical.. we should be the same.  Hold to our values within our communities, preach repentance and forgiveness to the masses and leave it to God to work out the rest... instead, like the dispensationalist community that is trying to hasten Christs return by forcing prophesy to be fullfilled, we are totally missing the mark here.

To a Christian, whether or not America survives should be a non-issue.

For me the obese homosexuals are the problem. 

Show me where obesity itself is sinful...

Gluttony & sloth then..

Fair enough.  You can't assume that a person is by nature gluttonous or slothful because they're overweight.

No time now, but the gluttony may be one of the seven deadly sins, but its Biblical meaning--and Biblical condemnation--isn't as clear as many assume.  When I get back from church later I'll look up old posts.

But this is the kind of thinking you get when you believe in Eugenics.

It's not a matter of believing.. its a scientific fact.  The human race overall is getting weaker with each generation.. and if you read the bible it's very easy to see that it's consistant with biblical prophesy.

And although i have stated the reasons for our decline, I have in no way suggested any remedy to the situation, because it's not up to us to do so.

Balderdash. I'm not ignorant about these theories; I've even read as much of The Bell Curve as I could stomach--the faulty logic was obvious (and I've since read studies laying out the problems with it).  These types of studies take data that shows an effect and assign a cause out of their own prejudice.

Anyway, here's a link to one thread on gluttony.  There's some good info on this, although old attitudes and passed-down definitions come out occasionally as well.

Gluttony

Quote from: Robert Pate on Tue Nov 13, 2007 - 22:33:35
James
Rondon

I am God's free man, I am not bound by laws, or scripture.  You don't understand this.  I am not religious, nor am I striving to be Holy.  I decided a long time ago that I have nothing, and I mean nothing, to offer a Holy God. I believe that Christ is my righteousness because I don't have any.

I also believe like Paul that I am a sinner, saved by the grace of God.  Now please don't pull words and lines out of this post so that you can make it sound like I am saying something that I am not.

Robert
Pate

As I already mentioned, I answered your questions, so I would appreciate it if you answered mine.

Here they are again (in bold):

Quote from: James Rondon on Tue Nov 13, 2007 - 16:38:48

Quote from: Robert Pate on Tue Nov 13, 2007 - 15:20:41
James
Rondon

You are pulling lines out of my post that are out of context.

So, are we to live our lives before the Lord as sinners, or not?

Are you striving for holiness, or not?

Are you looking to become one with the world, or not?

Quote from: Robert Pate on Tue Nov 13, 2007 - 15:20:41
Do you not believe that it was the prostitutes and tax collectors that accepted Jesus and believed upon him.  Why was this James?

It wasn't because He was a sinner, just like them. And it wasn't because He partook with them in their sins. He accepted them for the same reason He accepts any of us: by His grace and mercy, through repentance, and faith in Him.

Quote from: Robert Pate on Tue Nov 13, 2007 - 15:20:41
Why did Paul say I can be all things to all men that I may win some?

Not because he partook with other men in their sins.

Quote from: Robert Pate on Tue Nov 13, 2007 - 15:20:41
Why did Paul refer to himself as "The chief of all sinners"

He didn't. He referred to himself as the chief of sinners whom Christ came into the world to save.

Quote from: Robert Pate on Tue Nov 13, 2007 - 15:20:41
Why does Hebrews tell us to cease from our works and enter into his rest?

Why does the very next verse say, "Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief"?

Quote from: Robert Pate on Tue Nov 13, 2007 - 15:20:41
Why does 1st John say, "that if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us?"

Why does it say, just 3 verses later, "these things I write unto you, that ye sin not"?

James
Rondon

We are to live our lives before the Lord as sinners.  Why? because we fail to obey the law.  The law says, love God with all of your heart mind and strength and your neighbor as yourself.  I don't know about you but I fail miserably.

No, I am not striving to be Holy, why try to be Holy when your not?  That is what will make you a hypocrite.  I try to live the Christian life.

We have the freedom in Christ to associate with the lost.  Paul said he could be all things to all men.  I don't believe that we should go to bars or night clubs for entertainment.  I think that is a poor witness for Christ.

Quote from: Tantor on Wed Nov 14, 2007 - 16:45:07
It's not a matter of believing.. its a scientific fact.  The human race overall is getting weaker with each generation.. and if you read the bible it's very easy to see that it's consistant with biblical prophesy.

And although i have stated the reasons for our decline, I have in no way suggested any remedy to the situation, because it's not up to us to do so.

we are not of this world, but we are citizens of heaven, so if the world is getting weaker that should not have anything to do with us, we should still be getting stronger. with that said, i did say, we 'should' be, not we are. we need to forget about the cares of this world and start to focus on Him! and crusify our flesh daily.

Quote from: Robert Pate on Wed Nov 14, 2007 - 19:39:46
James
Rondon

We are to live our lives before the Lord as sinners.  Why? because we fail to obey the law.  The law says, love God with all of your heart mind and strength and your neighbor as yourself.  I don't know about you but I fail miserably.

No, I am not striving to be Holy, why try to be Holy when your not?  That is what will make you a hypocrite.  I try to live the Christian life.

We have the freedom in Christ to associate with the lost.  Paul said he could be all things to all men.  I don't believe that we should go to bars or night clubs for entertainment.  I think that is a poor witness for Christ.

what verse is that, we are to live our lives before Him as sinners???

is it this one, 'present your bodies a living sacrifice, Holy and acceptable.
or is it this one, 'be ye perfect, as I am perfect.'  We are Holy and righteous. We are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. WE are also called saints, not sinners. I think calling yourself a sinner is the poorest witness for Christ, why? What message is that giving to the sinners of the world? that we are saved but do not grow, we stay the same old sinners that they are, big deal. What motive is that for them to become Christians?

Now on the other hand, if they know you past sins, and see that you are saved, and no longer practice those old sins, they can see the change in you, and can say, wow, this person has changed, I wonder how/why he has done this thing. But if you say you get saved, and go right back to your same old sins, I would think that you are being a hyprocrit, as you say you are now a siant, but you still live as a sinner. as a sinner, i would think, well, does this God of thiers except sin? He must.

NO the bible teaches that we are to follow the example of Christ, and sin no more. Did Jesus sin? No. so how can you sin and follow His example? Now I am not suggesting that we will never slip and fall from time to time, and it is definitily a long growing process that does not happen overnight,  but we should be growing maturing into that perfection in love and righteousness as we have the spirit of God in us to help us, we have access to Gods wisdom and to faith, we have the name of Jesus, we have spiritual armor, we have everything we need to resist tempation including this promise and this fact.

God promises to provide a way of escape from every temptation!
We are no longer slaves to sin, now that Christ has freed us.

so how can we resist temptation? By crusifying our flesh daily, by transforming our minds by the renewing of our minds, by being obedient in faith...

but we are up against the devil, so resist the devil and he will flee, for greater is He who is in us, than he who is in the world. Our problem we have to many 'cares of this world' when we are no longer citizens of this world.

Kamakaz

You are in the sin fight.  I used to be in the sin fight until I discovered that the sin fight was over. Yes, the sin question has been dealt with by Christ.
You are trying to conquer something that has allready been conquered.

There is no rest or peace in the holiness doctrine.  When is good, ever good enough? How do you know that you have satisfied the righteousness of God?  How many times a day must you confess your sins?  How do you know that is enough?  How many times a day must you crucify your flesh?  How do you know that is acceptable?  As you strive for holiness how do you know Jesus is pleased?  How do you know that you have not failed to keep God's Holy law?

This is the problem with being religious.  You never know when you have done enough. No, I am going to continue to live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me.  Yes, I am going to continue to be what I am,  a sinner saved by grace.  Jesus said that he came into the world to save sinners.  I want to be sure that I qualify.

Quote from: Robert Pate on Thu Nov 15, 2007 - 09:54:54
Kamakaz

You are in the sin fight.  I used to be in the sin fight until I discovered that the sin fight was over. Yes, the sin question has been dealt with by Christ.
You are trying to conquer something that has allready been conquered.

There is no rest or peace in the holiness doctrine.  When is good, ever good enough? How do you know that you have satisfied the righteousness of God?  How many times a day must you confess your sins?  How do you know that is enough?  How many times a day must you crucify your flesh?  How do you know that is acceptable?  As you strive for holiness how do you know Jesus is pleased?  How do you know that you have not failed to keep God's Holy law?

This is the problem with being religious.  You never know when you have done enough. No, I am going to continue to live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me.  Yes, I am going to continue to be what I am,  a sinner saved by grace.  Jesus said that he came into the world to save sinners.  I want to be sure that I qualify.

Yes, I fight the good fight of faith. And I ask forgiveness as much as i need too. But it is not hard, for our new law is the law of love, and with grace when i do slip He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and remember them no more! Not to mention, Jesus called us, even commanded us, to be holy, and righteous and even perfect, and to sin no more! So yes I fight the good fight! I dont always win, but I always carry on. But even when I loose a battle, I know He has won the war.

another example in the bible is running a race. Can you reach the finish line if you stop running? No, yet you have chosen to stop running. You chose to ignore the plain commands of Jesus. The bible calls us to follow the example given by Jesus. Did He sin? No. So how are you following His example? (you follow the easy parts) Jesus never promised daisies and smiles, but pain and trouble and persecution! We must pick up our cross daily, we must cruicify our flesh daily. We must FIGHT the good fight. Is fighting easy or fun? no. How can you ignore what He commanded, be ye perfect as I am perfect. sin no more, present your bodies a living SACRIFICE, Holy and acceptable to Him. Does God accept sin? No.

And how do we live righteous lives? In our own strength? No that is impossible! But who is in us? but the spirit of God Himself. We allow Him to perfect us from faith to faith! It is all Him, working out our salvation inside us. So we have no works or anything to boast about. Our only part is willingly handing our free will over to Him, and He does the rest. Now when we are tempted, we must also, not give into the temptation but trust in Him who has provided a way of escape from EVERY TEMPTATION. why would He bother to provide a way of escape (not sin) if He did not expect us to use it?

It sounds like you were running the race at one time, but stopped running.