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Quote from: Terrence on Tue Feb 26, 2008 - 02:51:05
"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." - John 1:12-13

How were all the people who received and believed in Jesus' name "born again" according to this scripture? If those who believed in Jesus were born again by God's will and/or decision, how could you say man made the first choice?

You want to do hermeneutics and exegesis? Then let's back up to the beginning and clarify something. You keep saying the passage says "born again". This passage does not say that. It says simply "born". Does this passage say "born again"? No, not in the original text, and not in any version I can find except the NLT, which has serious troubles. So, until you can acknowledge that the passage says "born" and not "born again", I cannot trust your leading in a study.

If the question were: "Are we God's children because of something we do or because of something God does?", the answer is simple and clear. We are children of God because of what God has already done with Himself as Son and through His blood sacrifice on the Cross.

But that does not seem to be the question you are asking, and I bristle at being led down a road to a trap of select-elect, which is how it feels. Select-elect is not free-will of humankind. Select-elect is void of hope. Select-elect denies that the Good News is offered to everyone. And if it is not offered to everyone, if it does not offer hope to everyone, how can it be Good News? It can't.

Quote from: phoebe on Thu Feb 28, 2008 - 10:32:39

Quote from: Terrence on Tue Feb 26, 2008 - 02:51:05
"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." - John 1:12-13

How were all the people who received and believed in Jesus' name "born again" according to this scripture? If those who believed in Jesus were born again by God's will and/or decision, how could you say man made the first choice?

You want to do hermeneutics and exegesis? Then let's back up to the beginning and clarify something. You keep saying the passage says "born again". This passage does not say that. It says simply "born". Does this passage say "born again"? No, not in the original text, and not in any version I can find except the NLT, which has serious troubles. So, until you can acknowledge that the passage says "born" and not "born again", I cannot trust your leading in a study.

If the question were: "Are we God's children because of something we do or because of something God does?", the answer is simple and clear. We are children of God because of what God has already done with Himself as Son and through His blood sacrifice on the Cross.

But that does not seem to be the question you are asking, and I bristle at being led down a road to a trap of select-elect, which is how it feels. Select-elect is not free-will of humankind. Select-elect is void of hope. Select-elect denies that the Good News is offered to everyone. And if it is not offered to everyone, if it does not offer hope to everyone, how can it be Good News? It can't.

Phoebe,

I'd like to take things slow as to not get confused and caught up in too many things at once. The first thing I want to establish with you is that the terms "being born of God" and "being born again" are synonymous. Here's what it means to be born of God:

"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him" (1 Jn 5:1).

"For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world" (1 Jn 5:4).

Here's what it means to be born again:

"since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God" (1 Peter 1:23).

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time"(1 Peter 1:3-5).

Would you agree with me now that the terms, namely "born of God" and "born again" are synonymous? If so, I can try to address some of the other good and interesting things you said. Let me know.

I think we should stick with the text and not fall into the traps of preconceived ideas. This text does not say "born again", does it? So, let's not use it. If we were discussing 1 Peter 1:23, then it would be appropriate to use "born again". Let's exegete one text at a time. I believe if John had meant "born again" here, that is what he would have said.

You don't have to go slow for me. If you do, I'll drift off to the kitchen or somewhere...

Joh 6:40  For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
Joh 12:32  But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." (Jesus speaking)
Joh 8:28  So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.
Joh 14:9  Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
Joh 14:6  Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Joh 14:7  If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
Joh 6:44  "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:45  It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.
Joh 6:63  The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.
Joh 6:65  He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

How does the Father enable them? Through the preaching of the Word.

Jesus claims He draws all men to Himself, yet says the Father draws all men to Him, and we can't come to the Father to be drawn unless Jesus brings us before the Father.

Now there is some circular reasoning, unless of course Jesus is the Father incarnate.

FTL

If I give you a pizza, is it my will or your will that I give it?

Quote from: phoebe on Thu Feb 28, 2008 - 12:13:33
I think we should stick with the text and not fall into the traps of preconceived ideas. This text does not say "born again", does it? So, let's not use it. If we were discussing 1 Peter 1:23, then it would be appropriate to use "born again". Let's exegete one text at a time. I believe if John had meant "born again" here, that is what he would have said.

You don't have to go slow for me. If you do, I'll drift off to the kitchen or somewhere...

OK. We'll keep it "born of God" and not use "born again." We know from scripture that to be born of God means to Believe in Jesus and Love God the Father (1 Jn 5:1). By who's choice and/or decision does one become "born of God?"

What does our text (John 1:13) say?

Quote from: Harold on Thu Feb 28, 2008 - 12:15:00
Joh 6:40  For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
Joh 12:32  But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." (Jesus speaking)
Joh 8:28  So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.
Joh 14:9  Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
Joh 14:6  Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Joh 14:7  If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
Joh 6:44  "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:45  It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.
Joh 6:63  The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.
Joh 6:65  He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

How does the Father enable them? Through the preaching of the Word.

Jesus claims He draws all men to Himself, yet says the Father draws all men to Him, and we can't come to the Father to be drawn unless Jesus brings us before the Father.

Now there is some circular reasoning, unless of course Jesus is the Father incarnate.

FTL

If I give you a pizza, is it my will or your will that I give it?

Hi Harold!

I have two questions for you:

1. Does the word "all" mean all "all of the time" in scripture (or anywhere else for that matter)?

2. How can you say that God draws everyone everywhere (your version of all) when verses like Mark 4:11-12, Psalm 65:4, Acts 2:39, 1 Thessalonians 1:2-4,  Deuteronomy 7:6-10, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, etc., say otherwise?

Notice please how I put up both Old and New Testament scriptures as to show that this is nothing new, but that God always saved people the same way - namely by His Sovereign grace, through the Faith He gives them, and all to His glory alone.

Terrence Howdy,

Mar 4:11  He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables
Mar 4:12  so that, "'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"

Jesus speaking of His disciples. Believers, the secrets of the Kingdom not the Good News of reconciliation (unbelievers).

Act 2:39  The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

Rom 10:12  For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,
Rom 10:13  for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Rom 10:14  How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
Rom 10:15  And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
Rom 10:16  But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?"
Rom 10:17  Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
Rom 10:18  But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world."

God's chosen, the Jews, and you a wild branch have been grafted in, be afraid the Jews were cast out.

Psa 65:2  O you who hear prayer, to you all men will come.
Psa 65:3  When we were overwhelmed by sins, you forgave our transgressions.
Psa 65:4  Blessed are those you choose and bring near to live in your courts! We are filled with the good things of your house, of your holy temple.

All who come to Him. All who hear and believe.

I stayed in the same book by the same writer to demonstrate, there is more to understand than two verses.

Now if I give you a free pizza is it by my will, or yours?

FTL

Quote from: Harold on Thu Feb 28, 2008 - 13:35:32
Now if I give you a free pizza is it by my will, or yours?

Who cares?  I got a free pizza.

Quote from: Harold on Thu Feb 28, 2008 - 13:35:32
Terrence Howdy,

Mar 4:11  He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables
Mar 4:12  so that, "'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"

Jesus speaking of His disciples. Believers, the secrets of the Kingdom not the Good News of reconciliation (unbelievers).

Act 2:39  The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

Rom 10:12  For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,
Rom 10:13  for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Rom 10:14  How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
Rom 10:15  And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
Rom 10:16  But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?"
Rom 10:17  Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
Rom 10:18  But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world."

God's chosen, the Jews, and you a wild branch have been grafted in, be afraid the Jews were cast out.

Psa 65:2  O you who hear prayer, to you all men will come.
Psa 65:3  When we were overwhelmed by sins, you forgave our transgressions.
Psa 65:4  Blessed are those you choose and bring near to live in your courts! We are filled with the good things of your house, of your holy temple.

All who come to Him. All who hear and believe.

I stayed in the same book by the same writer to demonstrate, there is more to understand than two verses.

Now if I give you a free pizza is it by my will, or yours?

FTL

Harold,

I'm not sure if you're still saying that God draws all people? I gave you some scripture to show that not all hear the gospel and not all will hear. Indeed, many will be called by the gospel, but never all. Moreover, only a few out of many are chosen. All that said - and for the purpose of not getting ahead of myself and not confusing myself - I just want to find a common point where which we might agree, and then go from there.

According to the discussed text ( John 1:12-13), by who's choice did those who receive and believe upon Jesus become born again, God or man?

By the way, I'm not being rude when I didn't answer your analogous question. I just feel that there are problems with analogies, especially if we have certain presuppositions, and so I didn't answer it because I want to first come a place where we might agree. My aim is to try to see if you will see things from another perspective and without involving your preconceived notions.

Quote from: Jimmy on Wed Feb 27, 2008 - 07:04:02

Quote from: Terrence on Tue Feb 26, 2008 - 21:57:19

Quote from: Jimmy on Tue Feb 26, 2008 - 14:31:45
Back up a couple of verses,

10  He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11  He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.

His own did not receive Him.  But those who did receive him were born again.  I really don't understand how you can logically turn the order around.  The process, it seems to me, throughout the NT teaching is to hear, to believe, to respond, to be saved, to live.  The role of the Holy Spirit, though not limited to just the word, is nevertheless presented mostly as the word.  That is why Paul says that faith comes from hearing and hearing from the word.

Jimmy -

Let me first say that I agree with you that "faith comes by hearing the word of God" and that "we must hear, believe, and then respond." I agree with this very much. I'm only asking you this:

Did those who receive Jesus and believe in his name born again by their own will/choice or God's?

Even though we must 1.) hear 2.) believe and 3.) respond, there is still something that comes first A: God. God must grant us faith (Phi 1:29).

Notice what comes first:

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48).

Before faith can be practiced and used, it must be granted (Phi 1:29).

Terrence, I do believe that the difference we are seeing here is not so much the meaning of the passages themselves, although that certainly is the case, as it is the direction from which we each approach the verses.  You approach these verses from the position of total depravity.  As such you will single out those verses with seem to you to support that view and tend to ignore, overlook or at least minimize consideration of other scriptures that deal with the same subject.  Given your position on Total depravity, you are forced to find a solution around the problem that it presents.

I reject the teaching of total depravity.  Thus I am not bound to find a way around the problem presented by the teaching of total depravity concerning one responding to God's call.  That does not mean that I reject the role of the Holy Spirit in the life of one answering God's call.  But that also means that I do not reject the individual's ability to hear and respond, including the decision to believe; specifically the transition from unbelief to belief or faith if you prefer.

Scripture presents this as something the sinner must do to prepare himself for receiving the gift of salvation.  "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned." (Mar 16:16)   John says that he wrote his Gospel "but these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name" (John 20:31 ).  "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved" (Act 16:31).     "...if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved" (Rom 10:9).    "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" (Eph 2:8)

All of these and many more (e.g., see Romans 3:28: Gal 2:16, 3:26) speaks to the sinner making a decision about his condition.  I believe that the Holy Spirit works in our lives to help each one to come to the decision to believe, to repent and to turn, to answer the call.  I just see it different than you do through your eyes of total depravity.

There is no lack of Scripture that loudly shouts to the Bible's teaching that the power of the Word of God to move us to faith and repentance.  That is seen in both the old and new testaments.  The Holy Spirit is obviously the motive power with the Word being the primary tool of the Holy Spirit to move us.   Even the word of the preacher is a secondary tool along with the Word of God to move men to believe repent and turn.  James 5:20 says, " let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins."

You ask,

QuoteDid those who receive Jesus and believe in his name born again by their own will/choice or God's?

It was by their own will/choice that God granted man in His creation in His own image.  It is the difference between the soul of an animal and the spirit of man.

You quoted Acts 13:48,

Quote"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48).

Then you dismiss the part that says "when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord", and conclude, apparently, that there were some there who heard, rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord that were not appointed to eternal life and did not therefore believe.  Again you are interpreting through the eyes of the doctrine of total depravity.

That is unfortunate because so long as you hold that view and I reject that view there will be passages of Scripture that mean one thing to me and something else entirely to you.  It is also unfortunate I guess that each of us carries a load baggage as we board the plane of interpretation. Strange as it may seem, very often it is the baggage that determines where the plane flies and where it lands.

Good points.  Even Jesus taught a valuable theological point when discussing Lazarus and the rich man.  He says that if Moses and the prophets ain't enough, neither will they believe if a man comes back from the dead!

Quote from: TerrenceBy the way, I'm not being rude when I didn't answer your analogous question. I just feel that there are problems with analogies, especially if we have certain presuppositions, and so I didn't answer it because I want to first come a place where we might agree. My aim is to try to see if you will see things from another perspective and without involving your preconceived notions.

A man tells me God is giving away free salvation, I go to find out, a woman tells me the Good News of Jesus Christ, I believe, God declares me righteous. Now who gave me the free salvation. Who sent the messenger, and did I believe. His word made me believe.

You have not shown anything about all, you pick areas where God is speaking to people who are already believers. Not to the gentiles, who had never heard.

Verse 12 is a prerequisite to verse 13.

FTL

Quote from: Terrence on Thu Feb 28, 2008 - 12:40:51

Quote from: phoebe on Thu Feb 28, 2008 - 12:13:33
I think we should stick with the text and not fall into the traps of preconceived ideas. This text does not say "born again", does it? So, let's not use it. If we were discussing 1 Peter 1:23, then it would be appropriate to use "born again". Let's exegete one text at a time. I believe if John had meant "born again" here, that is what he would have said.

You don't have to go slow for me. If you do, I'll drift off to the kitchen or somewhere...

OK. We'll keep it "born of God" and not use "born again." We know from scripture that to be born of God means to Believe in Jesus and Love God the Father (1 Jn 5:1). By who's choice and/or decision does one become "born of God?"

What does our text (John 1:13) say?

Sorry, Terrence. I am an annoying stickler for details. "Born" or "born from God" is the result of belief and love for the Father and Son, not the definition of. This is your preconceived notion. (Just a reminder that we all have them, even you.) In this discussion, this may seem a small, but crucial, point.

YOUR selected text (my preferred version):

Quote"To everyone who accepted him, to everyone who believed his Name, he gave the right to become children of God–children not from a woman nor from the purposes of the natural realm nor from the purposes of a man [literally from streams of blood, the human embryo is the seed of the father and the blood of the mother as referred to by the Greeks], but born from God."

The choice was that of the hearer/believer. The resulting birth to become a child of God was from God, as it says in the text. They believed, and THEN they were given the right to be His child. Notice it says "to be..." Doesn't say they were children of God. Not in this place. It seems you are trying to make this say something that I don't think it says.

No, no common ground here. I can't give you this one.

For: Harold


A man tells me God is giving away free salvation, I go to find out, a woman tells me the Good News of Jesus Christ, I believe, God declares me righteous. Now who gave me the free salvation. Who sent the messenger, and did I believe. His word made me believe.

This is why I was trying to avoid answering you analogous question. You have a presupposition that man has within himself the ability and desire to make a decision for Christ in and of himself. Therefore, all that you have said has this theme "seasoned" in all your sayings. I simple do not believe this presupposition is correct. This is why I was avoiding answering your question. I wasn't being rude, but was trying to find a way I could get you to look at things out side of your preconceived ideas on scripture, and then come to common ground before I responded on this analogy. I'm sorry that I haven't done a good job, I'll try again.

You have not shown anything about all, you pick areas where god is speaking to people who are already believers. Not to the gentiles, who had never heard.

I know. I'm not yet concerned with other things, but only want to stay with one issue at a time. The crux of the matter now is John 1:12-13. I just want you to answer if those who receive Jesus in faith did so by their own will or God's. Which is it? You haven't answered yet.

Verse 12 is a prerequisite to verse 13.

Verse 12 states..."those who receive Jesus and believe on His name" did so because of verse 13..."they were born of God." Would you agree?

For: phoebe

Sorry, Terrence. I am an annoying stickler for details.

Don't worry about that with me. I appreciate you for it!

"Born" or "born from God" is the result of belief and love for the Father and Son, not the definition of.

This is actually the point of the whole thread. How is does one become born of God according to the discussed text? Do we believe in Jesus first and then God makes us born of him, or does he create in us a new heart, and then we believe and receive Jesus? This is the crux of the matter, and a very good question to spark conversation, I think. So here's my question to you (no one has addressed the question as yet): Since no one can believe in Jesus until the Father draws them (Jn 6:65), and since everyone who comes to Him end up getting raised on the last day - which is to say they are saved - how can you say that they are saved because they had faith first, and then based on their faith, God made them "born of God?"

This is your preconceived notion. (Just a reminder that we all have them, even you.) In this discussion, this may seem a small, but crucial, point.

I agree. I have a presupposition. It is that God saved us when we hated him. He "took out our hearts of stone, gave us a new one - one that loves him and hates sin and is conscious to the laws written upon our hearts; he gave us His spirit whereby we will keep His commandments and not go on sinning habitually. After doing this, i.e, changing a God hating and sin loving man into a God loving and sin hating man, thereby making us "new creations in Christ," we offered ourselves freely to Him. Had not God freed us from our self imposed slavery to sin, we'd never choose him or seek Him. The natural man hates God too much to make a choice to serve Him!

Quote from: Terrence on Thu Feb 28, 2008 - 22:03:22
For: phoebe

Sorry, Terrence. I am an annoying stickler for details.

Don't worry about that with me. I appreciate you for it!

"Born" or "born from God" is the result of belief and love for the Father and Son, not the definition of.

This is actually the point of the whole thread. How is does one become born of God according to the discussed text? Do we believe in Jesus first and then God makes us born of him, or does he create in us a new heart, and then we believe and receive Jesus? This is the crux of the matter, and a very good question to spark conversation, I think. So here's my question to you (no one has addressed the question as yet): Since no one can believe in Jesus until the Father draws them (Jn 6:65), and since everyone who comes to Him end up getting raised on the last day - which is to say they are saved - how can you say that they are saved because they had faith first, and then based on their faith, God made them "born of God?"
...

I said that??

We are saved because of what Jesus did on the Cross.

You wrote this to Harold:

Quote from: Terrence on Thu Feb 28, 2008 - 21:44:53

Verse 12 states..."those who receive Jesus and believe on His name" did so because of verse 13..."they were born of God." Would you agree?

No, I cannot agree with you that they received and believed BECAUSE they were born of God. That's reading the text backwards. It says that we have the right to be children of God not because we were born from man and woman, which we are, but because we are born from God. We have that right BECAUSE we accepted and believed him to be the Messiah. That's what I read.

Quote from: phoebe on Thu Feb 28, 2008 - 23:59:07

Quote from: Terrence on Thu Feb 28, 2008 - 22:03:22
For: phoebe

Sorry, Terrence. I am an annoying stickler for details.

Don't worry about that with me. I appreciate you for it!

"Born" or "born from God" is the result of belief and love for the Father and Son, not the definition of.

This is actually the point of the whole thread. How is does one become born of God according to the discussed text? Do we believe in Jesus first and then God makes us born of him, or does he create in us a new heart, and then we believe and receive Jesus? This is the crux of the matter, and a very good question to spark conversation, I think. So here's my question to you (no one has addressed the question as yet): Since no one can believe in Jesus until the Father draws them (Jn 6:65), and since everyone who comes to Him end up getting raised on the last day - which is to say they are saved - how can you say that they are saved because they had faith first, and then based on their faith, God made them "born of God?"
...

I said that??

We are saved because of what Jesus did on the Cross.

You wrote this to Harold:

Quote from: Terrence on Thu Feb 28, 2008 - 21:44:53

Verse 12 states..."those who receive Jesus and believe on His name" did so because of verse 13..."they were born of God." Would you agree?

No, I cannot agree with you that they received and believed BECAUSE they were born of God. That's reading the text backwards. It says that we have the right to be children of God not because we were born from man and woman, which we are, but because we are born from God. We have that right BECAUSE we accepted and believed him to be the Messiah. That's what I read.

Don't you see a problem with that train of thought though? You said:

"We have that right BECAUSE we accepted and believed him to be the Messiah."

Yet the Bible says:

"No one can believe upon Jesus unless the Father draw him" (Jn 6:65).

Those who believe and receive Jesus do so because God made them alive in Christ. Don't we see this all through scripture, that election isn't based on foreseen faith, but rather we believe because of our election? In other words, God, before time began, choose a people whom he would save in time. And, when the time came, he sent forth the means by which he summons those whom he foreknew - namely by calling them though the gospel, and because he elected them to have faith in time, they believe when they hear the gospel and are born again. What can show this more clear than 2 Thes 2:13-14?

There we see so plainly that "God chose some people to be saved" and how they would be saved, namely by "his calling them through the gospel, v 14.

No, I don't see a problem with my train of thought.

We've moved on to another passage? OK.

John 6:60-65 -

QuoteWhen quite a few of his disciples heard this, [the "eat this flesh" speech] they remarked, "This teaching is hard to take! Who can accept it?"

Jesus was aware that his disciples were complaining about this. He said to them, "Is this a problem for you? What if you observe the Human Being [Jesus] go up to the place he was before? It it the Spirit who gives life–the natural realm doesn't count for anything. The words I have spoken to you are spiritual and they have life. But there are some of you who don't believe."

In fact, Jesus knew from the beginning which of them didn't believe and just who would betray him. "He said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has granted it to them."

IOW, God did not allow unbelievers and betrayers to come close enough to Jesus to have understanding. God, being Omnipotent, would know from Day 1 who would believe and who wouldn't and who would betray. That does not mean He pre-chose anyone. Only that He pre-knew, so to speak. He used unbelievers and betrayers for His purpose, but did not grant them understanding of Him.

This is how I understand this passage. (You sure skip around a lot ... I thought we were going to exegete a passage?)

You read and understand things through a preconceived lens of selection. I don't. You see 2Thess. as God choosing who He is going to save as a pre-selection. That is only partly accurate. He chooses who to save, yes. But He is choosing to save those who believe, rather than picking-and-choosing who He wants to make believers. vs. 14:

Quote"He invited you to this by means of the Good News - this meant you took hold of [gained possession of] the splendor of our Lord Jesus the Anointed One."

IMO, select-elect makes all of this life nothing more than a game of God's. And I don't think God plays games with humans souls.

He chose to save me because I believe. He could have designed life so that no one is saved, even unbelievers. But He didn't. And I am so glad!

Maybe you just need a better translation.

Quote from: phoebe on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 10:12:04
No, I don't see a problem with my train of thought.

We've moved on to another passage? OK.

John 6:60-65 -

QuoteWhen quite a few of his disciples heard this, [the "eat this flesh" speech] they remarked, "This teaching is hard to take! Who can accept it?"

Jesus was aware that his disciples were complaining about this. He said to them, "Is this a problem for you? What if you observe the Human Being [Jesus] go up to the place he was before? It it the Spirit who gives life–the natural realm doesn't count for anything. The words I have spoken to you are spiritual and they have life. But there are some of you who don't believe."

In fact, Jesus knew from the beginning which of them didn't believe and just who would betray him. "He said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has granted it to them."

IOW, God did not allow unbelievers and betrayers to come close enough to Jesus to have understanding. God, being Omnipotent, would know from Day 1 who would believe and who wouldn't and who would betray. That does not mean He pre-chose anyone. Only that He pre-knew, so to speak. He used unbelievers and betrayers for His purpose, but did not grant them understanding of Him.

This is how I understand this passage. (You sure skip around a lot ... I thought we were going to exegete a passage?)

You read and understand things through a preconceived lens of selection. I don't. You see 2Thess. as God choosing who He is going to save as a pre-selection. That is only partly accurate. He chooses who to save, yes. But He is choosing to save those who believe, rather than picking-and-choosing who He wants to make believers. vs. 14:

Quote"He invited you to this by means of the Good News - this meant you took hold of [gained possession of] the splendor of our Lord Jesus the Anointed One."

IMO, select-elect makes all of this life nothing more than a game of God's. And I don't think God plays games with humans souls.

He chose to save me because I believe. He could have designed life so that no one is saved, even unbelievers. But He didn't. And I am so glad!

Maybe you just need a better translation.

I'm aware that God's election makes Him look "mean" and "evil" in the eyes of someone who does not understand what I'm saying, especially considering when they have a unknowingly high view of man. I understand this. In fact, I understand why you might be annoyed when I write certain things. I might as well be talking about a different God, because the one you grew to know and love seems worlds apart from the one I'm trying to describe. Nevertheless, my aim is to not only show that the God I'm talking about is the same, but much more loving and merciful than your freewill presupposition will allow you to see. You see, one can never fully grasp and understand the love God showed to His people unless they grasp, to some degree, who they were apart from Christ. This is exactly the reason I'm talking about this subject so much. I hope to bring glory to God and joy and crazy passion to his people. Oh, I'm not saying that you don't already have this, but that these traits are fruits of right doctrine. All that said I want you to answer a question that is going to, I hope, challenge your thinking. Now, I'm going to bounce around again, so please have patients with me. Here's the question:

How could a man who is a slave to sin (Jn 8:34), who cannot do good (Jer 13:23) who cannot even keep God's laws like repent and follow Christ (Rom 8:7), who cannot even understand spiritual truth like the gospel which he needs (1 Cor 2:14), make a choice in and of himself to choose Christ over sin? Moreover, why would he do this if he loves darkness more than light, never seeks God, but instead suppresses obvious truth in unrighteousness, so that he may continue with what he loves most, namely His own will and sin?

Please notice: I'm not painting a nice picture of man. I hope to give a glimpse of the sinfulness of man, as shown in his constant and willing law breaking (sinning) of God's laws, his constant and willing choice to choose something infinitely less than God over God, and the insanity of his sins considering that God holds his life - even his very breathe, in the palm of his hands. Please don't see that there are some good people who actually want Christ but can't get him because God didn't choose or elect them. That is certainly not what I'm saying. I'm saying - and I hope you will see this when you try to answer the question above - No one loves God until God himself changes a person and reveals Himself to the person.

Quote from: TerrenceYou have a presupposition that man has within himself the ability and desire to make a decision for Christ in and of himself. Therefore, all that you have said has this theme "seasoned" in all your sayings. I simple do not believe this presupposition is correct.

Your presupposition, has lead you to believe the way you do, John 6:65: I have already shown you that Jesus says I, Jesus, if I am lifted up will draw all men to me. How can this be? Jesus is the Father incarnate. I gave you a wealth of info from John's gospel that demonstrates the preaching of the Good News draws men to God. Yet you say nothing about those verses. You use John 6:65 in the context of your presupposed beliefs.

Phoebe and I are trying to make our points, and you say stay with the verses in question, and then you bring in new verses. It is hard to have a discussion with you in the manner you choose to discuss it. But let's continue and we will get better there.

FTL

Harold

I have already shown you that Jesus says I, Jesus, if I am lifted up will draw all men to me.

If Jesus said that "he will" draw all men to him - and you take all men to mean everyone - why aren't all men drawn to him? Wasn't he lifted up? Yes, he was. Didn't he say that if he was lifted up "He WILL" draw all men? Could it be that you misunderstand the meaning?

I gave you a wealth of info from John's gospel that demonstrates the preaching of the Good News draws men to God. Yet you say nothing about those verses.

I did, but you have not realized. The gospel is spiritual truth, and to the natural man, NO spiritual truth is sensible, but foolishness (1 Cor 2:14). How then does one spiritually dead man get the upper hand and believe over another? You guys have yet to provide an answer to this question.

Quote from: Terrence on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 23:15:46
Harold

I have already shown you that Jesus says I, Jesus, if I am lifted up will draw all men to me.

If Jesus said that "he will" draw all men to him - and you take all men to mean everyone - why aren't all men drawn to him? Wasn't he lifted up? Yes, he was. Didn't he say that if he was lifted up "He WILL" draw all men? Could it be that you misunderstand the meaning?

That is possible, but under the circumstances, not likely.  It is more likely that you misunderstand the meaning.  

"It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. (John 6:45)

So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. (Rom 10:17)

It is the Holy Spirit through the word of God (sometimes by way of the preacher) that draws and it through hearing (or reading today with Bibles in unlimited supply) that they begin to believe.  Again it is the work of the Holy Spirit.  The Holy Spirit is fully capable of working in the lives of the unconverted.

This work essentially begins with bringing the sinner to a decision to believe.  The decision to believe is a transition from unbelief to faith.  Scripture always presents this as something the sinner must do to prepare himself for receivinb the fgifr of salvation.  "He who has believed and has been baptiized shall be savedk but he who has disvelieved shall be condemned" (Mark 16:16).  John says he wrote his Gospel "so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of Godl and that believing you may have life in His name" (John 20:31).  "Believe in the Lord Jessus and you will be saved" (Acts 16:31).  "If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your herat that God raised Him from the dead, ou will be saved" (Rom 10:9)  "For bey grace you have been saved through faith" (Eph 2:8)  "for by grace you have been saved through faith" (Eph 2:8)    We can go on and on to show just how the Holy Spirit works on the heart of the unsaved sinner to bring him to God.  

Quote from: Terrence on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 23:15:46
I gave you a wealth of info from John's gospel that demonstrates the preaching of the Good News draws men to God. Yet you say nothing about those verses.

I did, but you have not realized. The gospel is spiritual truth, and to the natural man, NO spiritual truth is sensible, but foolishness (1 Cor 2:14). How then does one spiritually dead man get the upper hand and believe over another? You guys have yet to provide an answer to this question.

Actually the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of men before their conversion is a work that is well established by scripture.  If you walk  through God's word without the corruption of total depravity wrapped around your ankles, you will tend to stumble less and you will observe that God does drawn men to Him.  Some of those who are drawn say "thank you God" and some of those who are drawn say "no thanks God".  It isn't as all mysterious as you would make it.  Fundamentally it is as John 6:45 says, "Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me."  It is just that not everyone stays.

QuoteFundamentally it is as John 6:45 says, "Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me."  It is just that not everyone stays.

Well, that would seem to fly in the face of these Truths:

QuoteEph 1:11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

2 Thessalonians 2:13But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

Ephesians 2:10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

and, finally

Philippians 1:4In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy 5because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

In John 6:44 we  see that Jesus claims that noone can come to Him unless drawn by the Father.  It seems that Jimmy would suggest that everyone has been drawn or everyone who hears God's Word has been drawn.  I don't see Jesus saying that.  When we look into the heart of Jesus' prayer in John 17, He prays for those the Father has given Him and who will be given to Him.  Those who are saved are the Father's gift to His Son.

I would think that God drawing man would be a good work begun by the Father as we see in Philippians 1:4.  God completes what He starts - always.  Yet, it seems that Jimmy thinks man can thwart God's plan and calling and work.  I think this leads to a place where man begins to focus upon himself.  And I think that raises man to a level, power and capability that I do not see in Scripture.  More importantly, I think it shifts the focus off of the Son.  And I don't believe God would ever place the essence of His Kingdom into the hands and up to the finicky choice of man.

Jimmy

That is possible, but under the circumstances, not likely.  It is more likely that you misunderstand the meaning. 

I will do well to reiterate here: "If Jesus said that "he will" draw all men to him - and you take all men to mean everyone - why aren't all men drawn to him? Wasn't he lifted up? Yes, he was. Didn't he say that if he was lifted up "He WILL" draw all men? All men who are "drawn" come and get saved (Jn 6:44). How can you say "all men" as in everybody gets drawn? Could it be that you misunderstand the meaning?"

"It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. (John 6:45)

Amen. I agree with this. "And they 'all' shall be taught of God." The "all" there is in context of a certain all, namely the elect. Now whether you agree with me or not on how someone becomes an elect, i.e., by God's choice or man's freewill, you too have to agree here that the "all" is in context of a certain all. Why? Because those "all" comes to Jesus.

So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. (Rom 10:17)

True again. But please notice who always hear and believe: "The 'called' ones from both the Jews and Gentiles believe (1 Cor 1:23-24), Those the "Father gave the Son" believe (Jn 17:2, Jn 6:37), Those "appointed to eternal life" (Acts 13:48), Those who God Himself reveals himself to (Luke 10:22), etc. Scripture never talks about a man in and of his own freewill making a choice for Jesus. With man's freewill choice, he chooses to not seek God, that he might continue with his own will being done. Rather, scripture describes a race of sin loving man running from God as an offender, and a God in mercy choosing to save some. This is why we are saved by Grace, that is unmerited and undeserved favor, through the gift of faith that God himself gives, so that He might get all the glory. It is NOT of ourselves, lest we have reason to boast.

It is the Holy Spirit through the word of God (sometimes by way of the preacher) that draws and it through hearing (or reading today with Bibles in unlimited supply) that they begin to believe.  Again it is the work of the Holy Spirit.  The Holy Spirit is fully capable of working in the lives of the unconverted.

Agreed again. But again...who believes? ONLY thoughts taught of God and called by God. You have to remember, "ONLY Jesus' sheep hear His voice." And they aren't sheep when they hear and believe. Rather, they simply believe because the ARE sheep (Contrast Jn 10:26-26).

If you walk  through God's word without the corruption of total depravity wrapped around your ankles, you will tend to stumble less and you will observe that God does drawn men to Him. 

How can you say God draws all men when scriptures emphatically and explicitly says "many are called" and never "all." How can all men be drawn if some died before Jesus? How can many be called when some never hear the gospel? You might not choose to agree with the sinfulness of man as taught in Radical depravity (total depravity), but it is nevertheless taught in scripture. No friend, you cannot say with any biblical assurance that God draws all men everywhere in every time. That is simple not taught in scripture. What is taught, however, is that God ransomed for Himself a people from every tongue, nation, and tribe, to save to the praise of His grace. God leaves some people in their sin, choosing to never draw them. Consider Pharaoh, the people in Romans 1, Mark 4:11-12, etc.

Some of those who are drawn say "thank you God" and some of those who are drawn say "no thanks God".  It isn't as all mysterious as you would make it.  Fundamentally it is as John 6:45 says, "Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me."  It is just that not everyone stays.

Read John 6:44 and notice that the "all" who are drawn by God, come to Christ and are therefore saved. There's simply NO reason to believe that some of the all come and aren't saved. The text simply does not allow for that.

Quote from: segell on Sat Mar 01, 2008 - 09:45:10

QuoteFundamentally it is as John 6:45 says, "Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me."  It is just that not everyone stays.

Well, that would seem to fly in the face of these Truths:

Interesting that you would think that John 6:45 would fly in the face of other scripture.  But then, I find many of your preconceptions interesting.  Not very Scriptural but interesting.

QuoteEph 1:11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

2 Thessalonians 2:13But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

I have added some highlighting to some of the scriptures you posted.

QuoteEphesians 2:10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

and, finally

Philippians 1:4In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy 5because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Nothing in any of that precludes what I have presented.  It is through the remarkable work of the Holy Spirit that the Word was produced, that we can hear (or read ) and respond favorably to that Word.  Of course, some choose otherwise.

QuoteIn John 6:44 we  see that Jesus claims that noone can come to Him unless drawn by the Father.  It seems that Jimmy would suggest that everyone has been drawn or everyone who hears God's Word has been drawn.  I don't see Jesus saying that.  When we look into the heart of Jesus' prayer in John 17, He prays for those the Father has given Him and who will be given to Him.  Those who are saved are the Father's gift to His Son.

It is not what I would suggest; rather it seems that it is Jesus speaking in John 6:45 would suggest that everyone who hears God's word has been drawn.  

QuoteI  would think that God drawing man would be a good work begun by the Father as we see in Philippians 1:4.  God completes what He starts - always.  Yet, it seems that Jimmy thinks man can thwart God's plan and calling and work.  I think this leads to a place where man begins to focus upon himself.  And I  think that raises man to a level, power and capability that I do not see in Scripture.  More importantly, I  think it shifts the focus off of the Son.  And I don't believe God would ever place the essence of His Kingdom into the hands and up to the finicky choice of man.

I have highlighted what the real problem might be here.  There seems to be a solid bit of subjectivity in what you think; no doubt influenced by the preconception of total depravity.  When you stick that sort of faulty thinking into the mix, you will undoubtedly come to some wrong conclusions as is evidenced by your comments here.

The problem that you have generated for yourself in the Php 1:4 passage is that you really aren't reading it and seeing what Paul is actually saying there.  If it were to be as you suggest and given that once started, the work was "destined" to be completed as you seem to think, one would have to wonder why Paul would be expressing his joys and prayers for something that could not happen any other way.  The very fact that Paul is giving thanks is due to their having continued to grow.  They are among those who heard, were drawn, believed and were saved and continue to grow in the Lord.  

Quote from: Terrence on Sat Mar 01, 2008 - 11:06:08
Read John 6:44 and notice that the "all" who are drawn by God, come to Christ and are therefore saved. There's simply NO reason to believe that some of the all come and aren't saved. The text simply does not allow for that.

Yes it does allow for that.  It is you that will not allow for that with your grossly biased Calvinistic theology.

You continue to quote bits of scripture from here and there and then add Calvin to it.  It is that bias which drives its meaning for you.   So long as you park the theology of Calvin on top of the Word, it will never say to you what it really means and it will almost never mean what you think it says.

Quote from: segell on Sat Mar 01, 2008 - 09:45:10

QuoteFundamentally it is as John 6:45 says, "Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me."  It is just that not everyone stays.

Well, that would seem to fly in the face of these Truths:

QuoteEph 1:11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

2 Thessalonians 2:13But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

Ephesians 2:10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

and, finally

Philippians 1:4In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy 5because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

In John 6:44 we  see that Jesus claims that noone can come to Him unless drawn by the Father.  It seems that Jimmy would suggest that everyone has been drawn or everyone who hears God's Word has been drawn.  I don't see Jesus saying that.  When we look into the heart of Jesus' prayer in John 17, He prays for those the Father has given Him and who will be given to Him.  Those who are saved are the Father's gift to His Son.

I would think that God drawing man would be a good work begun by the Father as we see in Philippians 1:4.  God completes what He starts - always.  Yet, it seems that Jimmy thinks man can thwart God's plan and calling and work.  I think this leads to a place where man begins to focus upon himself.  And I think that raises man to a level, power and capability that I do not see in Scripture.  More importantly, I think it shifts the focus off of the Son.  And I don't believe God would ever place the essence of His Kingdom into the hands and up to the finicky choice of man.

Indeed. And in Christ's prayer in John, he specifically and affirmatively prays not for the rest of the world, but only for those who believe and will believe upon Him

Quote from: Jimmy on Sat Mar 01, 2008 - 11:12:16

Quote from: segell on Sat Mar 01, 2008 - 09:45:10

QuoteFundamentally it is as John 6:45 says, "Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me."  It is just that not everyone stays.

Well, that would seem to fly in the face of these Truths:

Interesting that you would think that John 6:45 would fly in the face of other scripture.  But then, I find many of your preconceptions interesting.  Not very Scriptural but interesting.

QuoteEph 1:11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

2 Thessalonians 2:13But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

I have added some highlighting to some of the scriptures you posted.

QuoteEphesians 2:10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

and, finally

Philippians 1:4In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy 5because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Nothing in any of that precludes what I have presented.  It is through the remarkable work of the Holy Spirit that the Word was produced, that we can hear (or read ) and respond favorably to that Word.  Of course, some choose otherwise.

QuoteIn John 6:44 we  see that Jesus claims that noone can come to Him unless drawn by the Father.  It seems that Jimmy would suggest that everyone has been drawn or everyone who hears God's Word has been drawn.  I don't see Jesus saying that.  When we look into the heart of Jesus' prayer in John 17, He prays for those the Father has given Him and who will be given to Him.  Those who are saved are the Father's gift to His Son.

It is not what I would suggest; rather it seems that it is Jesus speaking in John 6:45 would suggest that everyone who hears God's word has been drawn.  

QuoteI  would think that God drawing man would be a good work begun by the Father as we see in Philippians 1:4.  God completes what He starts - always.  Yet, it seems that Jimmy thinks man can thwart God's plan and calling and work.  I think this leads to a place where man begins to focus upon himself.  And I  think that raises man to a level, power and capability that I do not see in Scripture.  More importantly, I  think it shifts the focus off of the Son.  And I don't believe God would ever place the essence of His Kingdom into the hands and up to the finicky choice of man.

I have highlighted what the real problem might be here.  There seems to be a solid bit of subjectivity in what you think; no doubt influenced by the preconception of total depravity.  When you stick that sort of faulty thinking into the mix, you will undoubtedly come to some wrong conclusions as is evidenced by your comments here.

The problem that you have generated for yourself in the Php 1:4 passage is that you really aren't reading it and seeing what Paul is actually saying there.  If it were to be as you suggest and given that once started, the work was "destined" to be completed as you seem to think, one would have to wonder why Paul would be expressing his joys and prayers for something that could not happen any other way.  The very fact that Paul is giving thanks is due to their having continued to grow.  They are among those who heard, were drawn, believed and were saved and continue to grow in the Lord.  

QuoteInteresting that you would think that John 6:45 would fly in the face of other scripture.

Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy.  It's not John 6:45 that flies in the face of Scripture - it's your understanding of it, in my opinion.

Quote

QuoteEphesians 2:10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

and, finally

Philippians 1:4In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy 5because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Nothing in any of that precludes what I have presented.  It is through the remarkable work of the Holy Spirit that the Word was produced, that we can hear (or read ) and respond favorably to that Word.  Of course, some choose otherwise.

I think it does, Jimmy. I hear you saying that the Father calls or draws people to Him but man can reject Him or choose to respond unfavorably.  I'm trying to make the distinction that when the Father draws that drawing is the beginning of His good work.  And Scripture tells us that "He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus".  That's a powerful promise and declaration of God's completed work.  It parallels perfectly with Ezekiel 36:24-27 and other Scriptures telling us of how God works in the hearts of those who are saved.  It is His work and He completes it - not us as you seem to suggest.

QuoteIt is not what I would suggest; rather it seems that it is Jesus speaking in John 6:45 would suggest that everyone who hears God's word has been drawn.

That is a point where we disagree.  God uses His Word to draw those who will be saved - not all who hear God's Word are drawn.  Far from it actually.  The Bible tells us that His Word is actually hated by the world.  The world is actually repelled by His Word.  There is no universal draw from God's Word.  Just the opposite, if I read John (and other passages) correctly.

Quote

QuoteI  would think that God drawing man would be a good work begun by the Father as we see in Philippians 1:4.  God completes what He starts - always.  Yet, it seems that Jimmy thinks man can thwart God's plan and calling and work. I think this leads to a place where man begins to focus upon himself.  And I  think that raises man to a level, power and capability that I do not see in Scripture.  More importantly, I  think it shifts the focus off of the Son.  And I don't believe God would ever place the essence of His Kingdom into the hands and up to the finicky choice of man.

I have highlighted what the real problem might be here.  There seems to be a solid bit of subjectivity in what you think; no doubt influenced by the preconception of total depravity.  When you stick that sort of faulty thinking into the mix, you will undoubtedly come to some wrong conclusions as is evidenced by your comments here.

The problem that you have generated for yourself in the Php 1:4 passage is that you really aren't reading it and seeing what Paul is actually saying there.  If it were to be as you suggest and given that once started, the work was "destined" to be completed as you seem to think, one would have to wonder why Paul would be expressing his joys and prayers for something that could not happen any other way.  The very fact that Paul is giving thanks is due to their having continued to grow.  They are among those who heard, were drawn, believed and were saved and continue to grow in the Lord. 

[/quote]

Jimmy, in a word, poppycock.  My use of the word "think" doesn't in any way point to any more or any less subjectivity than what you bring.  In fact, if you are honest, all that you share is what you think.  Aside from that, the so-called preconceived notion of "total depravity" was never preconceived in my mind - nor was it something that was taught to me.  The condition of man apart from Christ is very clear in Scripture.  If one can't begin there, I fear one can't begin to understand the enormity of God's grace.  (Er, um, speaking of preconceived thinking - isn't what you are sharing here the teachings you have had since you were a child?)

As for Philippians 1:4.  How in the world do you think the people Paul is talking to were able to continue to grow?  By and of themselves?  Paul is giving God the glory.  It seems to me, Jimmy, you want to take it away from Him.  I don't say that lightly and I don't believe that is a conscious thought with you.  But when you net it out, that is what is left.  And that is the danger of your theology.  It becomes man focussed.  Not only in what you believe man must do in order to be saved, but what man must do in order to keep saved.  Being saved and losing salvation are in the sole purview of man, according to you.  The difference in our views is that God is given the glory for saving us and sealing us with His Spirit ensuring our eternal salvation.

Here's something to consider.  Man's so-called ability to "choose" God assures man of nothing in the final analysis.  It's all about who gets the glory.  And when I read your comments on Philippians 1:4 (if I read understood them correctly) actually takes away God's glory.  Believers' growth is solely the work of God's Spirit.  That is where Paul's confidence lies, Jimmy.  Not with the believer's ability.

Where's the focus?

Quote from: segell on Sat Mar 01, 2008 - 12:41:14

Quote from: Jimmy on Sat Mar 01, 2008 - 11:12:16

Quote from: segell on Sat Mar 01, 2008 - 09:45:10

QuoteFundamentally it is as John 6:45 says, "Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me."  It is just that not everyone stays.

Well, that would seem to fly in the face of these Truths:

Interesting that you would think that John 6:45 would fly in the face of other scripture.  But then, I find many of your preconceptions interesting.  Not very Scriptural but interesting.

QuoteEph 1:11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

2 Thessalonians 2:13But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

I have added some highlighting to some of the scriptures you posted.

QuoteEphesians 2:10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

and, finally

Philippians 1:4In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy 5because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Nothing in any of that precludes what I have presented.  It is through the remarkable work of the Holy Spirit that the Word was produced, that we can hear (or read ) and respond favorably to that Word.  Of course, some choose otherwise.

QuoteIn John 6:44 we  see that Jesus claims that noone can come to Him unless drawn by the Father.  It seems that Jimmy would suggest that everyone has been drawn or everyone who hears God's Word has been drawn.  I don't see Jesus saying that.  When we look into the heart of Jesus' prayer in John 17, He prays for those the Father has given Him and who will be given to Him.  Those who are saved are the Father's gift to His Son.

It is not what I would suggest; rather it seems that it is Jesus speaking in John 6:45 would suggest that everyone who hears God's word has been drawn.  

QuoteI  would think that God drawing man would be a good work begun by the Father as we see in Philippians 1:4.  God completes what He starts - always.  Yet, it seems that Jimmy thinks man can thwart God's plan and calling and work.  I think this leads to a place where man begins to focus upon himself.  And I  think that raises man to a level, power and capability that I do not see in Scripture.  More importantly, I  think it shifts the focus off of the Son.  And I don't believe God would ever place the essence of His Kingdom into the hands and up to the finicky choice of man.

I have highlighted what the real problem might be here.  There seems to be a solid bit of subjectivity in what you think; no doubt influenced by the preconception of total depravity.  When you stick that sort of faulty thinking into the mix, you will undoubtedly come to some wrong conclusions as is evidenced by your comments here.

The problem that you have generated for yourself in the Php 1:4 passage is that you really aren't reading it and seeing what Paul is actually saying there.  If it were to be as you suggest and given that once started, the work was "destined" to be completed as you seem to think, one would have to wonder why Paul would be expressing his joys and prayers for something that could not happen any other way.  The very fact that Paul is giving thanks is due to their having continued to grow.  They are among those who heard, were drawn, believed and were saved and continue to grow in the Lord.  

QuoteInteresting that you would think that John 6:45 would fly in the face of other scripture.

Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy.  It's not John 6:45 that flies in the face of Scripture - it's your understanding of it, in my opinion.

Quote

QuoteEphesians 2:10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

and, finally

Philippians 1:4In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy 5because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Nothing in any of that precludes what I have presented.  It is through the remarkable work of the Holy Spirit that the Word was produced, that we can hear (or read ) and respond favorably to that Word.  Of course, some choose otherwise.

I think it does, Jimmy. I hear you saying that the Father calls or draws people to Him but man can reject Him or choose to respond unfavorably.  I'm trying to make the distinction that when the Father draws that drawing is the beginning of His good work.  And Scripture tells us that "He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus".  That's a powerful promise and declaration of God's completed work.  It parallels perfectly with Ezekiel 36:24-27 and other Scriptures telling us of how God works in the hearts of those who are saved.  It is His work and He completes it - not us as you seem to suggest.

QuoteIt is not what I would suggest; rather it seems that it is Jesus speaking in John 6:45 would suggest that everyone who hears God's word has been drawn.

That is a point where we disagree.  God uses His Word to draw those who will be saved - not all who hear God's Word are drawn.  Far from it actually.  The Bible tells us that His Word is actually hated by the world.  The world is actually repelled by His Word.  There is no universal draw from God's Word.  Just the opposite, if I read John (and other passages) correctly.

Quote

QuoteI  would think that God drawing man would be a good work begun by the Father as we see in Philippians 1:4.  God completes what He starts - always.  Yet, it seems that Jimmy thinks man can thwart God's plan and calling and work. I think this leads to a place where man begins to focus upon himself.  And I  think that raises man to a level, power and capability that I do not see in Scripture.  More importantly, I  think it shifts the focus off of the Son.  And I don't believe God would ever place the essence of His Kingdom into the hands and up to the finicky choice of man.

I have highlighted what the real problem might be here.  There seems to be a solid bit of subjectivity in what you think; no doubt influenced by the preconception of total depravity.  When you stick that sort of faulty thinking into the mix, you will undoubtedly come to some wrong conclusions as is evidenced by your comments here.

The problem that you have generated for yourself in the Php 1:4 passage is that you really aren't reading it and seeing what Paul is actually saying there.  If it were to be as you suggest and given that once started, the work was "destined" to be completed as you seem to think, one would have to wonder why Paul would be expressing his joys and prayers for something that could not happen any other way.  The very fact that Paul is giving thanks is due to their having continued to grow.  They are among those who heard, were drawn, believed and were saved and continue to grow in the Lord. 

Jimmy, in a word, poppycock.  My use of the word "think" doesn't in any way point to any more or any less subjectivity than what you bring.  In fact, if you are honest, all that you share is what you think.  Aside from that, the so-called preconceived notion of "total depravity" was never preconceived in my mind - nor was it something that was taught to me.  The condition of man apart from Christ is very clear in Scripture.  If one can't begin there, I fear one can't begin to understand the enormity of God's grace.  (Er, um, speaking of preconceived thinking - isn't what you are sharing here the teachings you have had since you were a child?)

As for Philippians 1:4.  How in the world do you think the people Paul is talking to were able to continue to grow?  By and of themselves?  Paul is giving God the glory.  It seems to me, Jimmy, you want to take it away from Him.  I don't say that lightly and I don't believe that is a conscious thought with you.  But when you net it out, that is what is left.  And that is the danger of your theology.  It becomes man focussed.  Not only in what you believe man must do in order to be saved, but what man must do in order to keep saved.  Being saved and losing salvation are in the sole purview of man, according to you.  The difference in our views is that God is given the glory for saving us and sealing us with His Spirit ensuring our eternal salvation.

Here's something to consider.  Man's so-called ability to "choose" God assures man of nothing in the final analysis.  It's all about who gets the glory.  And when I read your comments on Philippians 1:4 (if I read understood them correctly) actually takes away God's glory.  Believers' growth is solely the work of God's Spirit.  That is where Paul's confidence lies, Jimmy.  Not with the believer's ability.

Where's the focus?




[/quote]





Not that this has anything to do with the discussion, but my 2003, along with the payments, is still in need of an engine and is sitting in the yard collecting dust.  It threw a rod.  Fix Or Repair Daily may be accurate!

Quote from: segell on Sat Mar 01, 2008 - 12:41:14

Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy. 

Segell, Segell, Segell  or maybe it is just Calvin, Calvin, Calvin.

Quote from: segell on Sat Mar 01, 2008 - 12:41:14Here's something to consider.  Man's so-called ability to "choose" God assures man of nothing in the final analysis.  It's all about who gets the glory.  And when I read your comments on Philippians 1:4 (if I read understood them correctly) actually takes away God's glory.  Believers' growth is solely the work of God's Spirit.  That is where Paul's confidence lies, Jimmy.  Not with the believer's ability.

That is where the big difference lies.  The real glory to God is in God's creating man with the free will to choose Him.  There is more glory in God's creation of animals that act through mostly instinct, that the Calvinist's view of a God who mandates a few for heaven but most for hell.  In all honesty, it is Calvin, Calvin Calvin--- Sick, Sick, Sick.

It is indeed the work of the Holy Spirit who dwells within each of us who is our comforter and our guide.  But it is not solely the work of the Holy Spirit as you profess.  To you there is no difference in man as the dwelling place of God under grace and the tabernacle as the dwelling place of God under the law.  To you there is no more glory in the body of man as the temple than in the skins of animals comprising the tent.  It is worse than that.  

You posted Php 1:4, but you didn't really read any of the chapter.  Paul says there,

3  I thank my God in all my remembrance of you,
4  always offering prayer with joy in my every prayer for you all,
5  in view of your participation in the gospel from the first day until now.

You read it as

3  I thank my God in all my remembrance of you,
5  in view of your robotic behavior to the declaration of God from the first day until now.

I am deadly serious here, Segell.  As far as I am concerned the Calvinistic views are a really heinous misrepresentation of the real glory of God.  There is more glory in the God's universe without man than in Calvin's presentation of man as a puppet.  The entire plan of salvation; the glorious Word of God that we have through the Holy Spirit, and the mind boggling sacrifice that was offered for us is worthless and meaningless when saddled with the reformed theology with you cling to.

Quote from: Harold on Wed Feb 27, 2008 - 11:45:14
Now this is really simple.

I own a pizza place: I give out cards that can be redeemed for a free pizza.

You get one of the cards, and either choose to get a free pizza, or not to receive a free pizza.

If you bring the card to my pizza place you will get a free pizza.

Now, was it by your will that I offered the free pizza, or was it my will to offer a free pizza.

God offers salvation to all who believe On Jesus Christ, it is by His will we are born again not ours, we come to the cross to get our new life. The Gift God has chosen to give.

FTL

I will quote myself, again who will is it that you get a free pizza?

FTL

Quote from: phoebe on Wed Feb 27, 2008 - 14:18:11

Quote from: Terrence on Wed Feb 27, 2008 - 11:52:57
...
By who's will/choice were those who received Jesus born again (Luke 10:22)?

After re-writing this about 6 times, I just want to get one thing totally clear so that I am not misreading you.

I hear you saying that only those called and granted faith can be saved, and that God only calls and grants faith to certain chosen people. Is this not what you are saying?

If so, then perhaps you missed 1 Tim 2 where Paul clearly states that God wants ALL to be saved. He doesn't say that all WILL be saved, but the heart of God's desire is that ALL can be saved, all can have faith, all can choose Him. "All" means every one.

God throws out the life-preserver to drowning men. The men see the preserver, believe that if they take hold of it God will draw them in to safety. Or, they can choose not to take hold and trust their lives to themselves, each other, or to the man in black in the other boat across the water. They can have faith that God is Who He says He is and will do what He says He will do and take hold of that Preserver. He may scream and holler and jump up-and-down to get their attention, but the choice to grab hold belongs to the men. Will God let some drown? Only those who turn and go the other way.

God doesn't pick-and-choose who to save and who not to save. He has already made a Way for us. WE do the choosing ourselves. He lets us go if we choose, but He doesn't leave us behind if we choose Him.

Beautiful!

Quote from: Bonnie on Sat Mar 01, 2008 - 16:54:16

Quote from: phoebe on Wed Feb 27, 2008 - 14:18:11

Quote from: Terrence on Wed Feb 27, 2008 - 11:52:57
...
By who's will/choice were those who received Jesus born again (Luke 10:22)?

After re-writing this about 6 times, I just want to get one thing totally clear so that I am not misreading you.

I hear you saying that only those called and granted faith can be saved, and that God only calls and grants faith to certain chosen people. Is this not what you are saying?

If so, then perhaps you missed 1 Tim 2 where Paul clearly states that God wants ALL to be saved. He doesn't say that all WILL be saved, but the heart of God's desire is that ALL can be saved, all can have faith, all can choose Him. "All" means every one.

God throws out the life-preserver to drowning men. The men see the preserver, believe that if they take hold of it God will draw them in to safety. Or, they can choose not to take hold and trust their lives to themselves, each other, or to the man in black in the other boat across the water. They can have faith that God is Who He says He is and will do what He says He will do and take hold of that Preserver. He may scream and holler and jump up-and-down to get their attention, but the choice to grab hold belongs to the men. Will God let some drown? Only those who turn and go the other way.

God doesn't pick-and-choose who to save and who not to save. He has already made a Way for us. WE do the choosing ourselves. He lets us go if we choose, but He doesn't leave us behind if we choose Him.

Beautiful!

Bonnie, Phoebe,

You must understand that Terrence is saying that they may not even know they are drowning.  God hasn't told them that and he took away their hearing before He threw them in the water..  And even if He did, He has decided that obviously they aren't worth saving.  So He isn't going to bother with the life preserver;  even though the life preserver that he is throwing out for some is in fact capable of saving all.  God just doesn't want 'em.  How hard is that to understand?  Let's face it, it isn't God's fault that they can't swim.  

Quote from: Jimmy on Sat Mar 01, 2008 - 18:02:32

Quote from: Bonnie on Sat Mar 01, 2008 - 16:54:16

Quote from: phoebe on Wed Feb 27, 2008 - 14:18:11

Quote from: Terrence on Wed Feb 27, 2008 - 11:52:57
...
By who's will/choice were those who received Jesus born again (Luke 10:22)?

After re-writing this about 6 times, I just want to get one thing totally clear so that I am not misreading you.

I hear you saying that only those called and granted faith can be saved, and that God only calls and grants faith to certain chosen people. Is this not what you are saying?

If so, then perhaps you missed 1 Tim 2 where Paul clearly states that God wants ALL to be saved. He doesn't say that all WILL be saved, but the heart of God's desire is that ALL can be saved, all can have faith, all can choose Him. "All" means every one.

God throws out the life-preserver to drowning men. The men see the preserver, believe that if they take hold of it God will draw them in to safety. Or, they can choose not to take hold and trust their lives to themselves, each other, or to the man in black in the other boat across the water. They can have faith that God is Who He says He is and will do what He says He will do and take hold of that Preserver. He may scream and holler and jump up-and-down to get their attention, but the choice to grab hold belongs to the men. Will God let some drown? Only those who turn and go the other way.

God doesn't pick-and-choose who to save and who not to save. He has already made a Way for us. WE do the choosing ourselves. He lets us go if we choose, but He doesn't leave us behind if we choose Him.

Beautiful!

Bonnie, Phoebe,

You must understand that Terrence is saying that they may not even know they are drowning.  God hasn't told them that and he took away their hearing before He threw them in the water..  And even if He did, He has decided that obviously they aren't worth saving.  So He isn't going to bother with the life preserver;  even though the life preserver that he is throwing out for some is in fact capable of saving all.  God just doesn't want 'em.  How hard is that to understand?  Let's face it, it isn't God's fault that they can't swim.  

God turned them over to a reprobate mind?

Quote from: Jimmy on Sat Mar 01, 2008 - 13:22:42

Quote from: segell on Sat Mar 01, 2008 - 12:41:14

Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy. 

Segell, Segell, Segell  or maybe it is just Calvin, Calvin, Calvin.

Quote from: segell on Sat Mar 01, 2008 - 12:41:14Here's something to consider.  Man's so-called ability to "choose" God assures man of nothing in the final analysis.  It's all about who gets the glory.  And when I read your comments on Philippians 1:4 (if I read understood them correctly) actually takes away God's glory.  Believers' growth is solely the work of God's Spirit.  That is where Paul's confidence lies, Jimmy.  Not with the believer's ability.

That is where the big difference lies.  The real glory to God is in God's creating man with the free will to choose Him.  There is more glory in God's creation of animals that act through mostly instinct, that the Calvinist's view of a God who mandates a few for heaven but most for hell.  In all honesty, it is Calvin, Calvin Calvin--- Sick, Sick, Sick.

It is indeed the work of the Holy Spirit who dwells within each of us who is our comforter and our guide.  But it is not solely the work of the Holy Spirit as you profess.  To you there is no difference in man as the dwelling place of God under grace and the tabernacle as the dwelling place of God under the law.  To you there is no more glory in the body of man as the temple than in the skins of animals comprising the tent.  It is worse than that.  

You posted Php 1:4, but you didn't really read any of the chapter.  Paul says there,

3  I thank my God in all my remembrance of you,
4  always offering prayer with joy in my every prayer for you all,
5  in view of your participation in the gospel from the first day until now.

You read it as

3  I thank my God in all my remembrance of you,
5  in view of your robotic behavior to the declaration of God from the first day until now.

I am deadly serious here, Segell.  As far as I am concerned the Calvinistic views are a really heinous misrepresentation of the real glory of God.  There is more glory in the God's universe without man than in Calvin's presentation of man as a puppet.  The entire plan of salvation; the glorious Word of God that we have through the Holy Spirit, and the mind boggling sacrifice that was offered for us is worthless and meaningless when saddled with the reformed theology with you cling to.

Jimmy,

I've never mentioned Calvin.  I've never studied Calvin.  You're somehow obsessed with him. 
And what I see you regurgitating is the kind of stuff that has probably been drilled into you since you were knee high to a grasshopper.  (At least that is the kind of worn out stuff that I've heard repeated often from folks who have been taught to hate Calvin's teaching).

I'm serious too, Jimmy.  When I see you say stuff like this:

Quote3  I thank my God in all my remembrance of you,
5  in view of your robotic behavior to the declaration of God from the first day until now.

I know that you really don't have a clue about what is being discussed.  Apparently, you only know what you have been taught.  Why did you leave out verse 6 which was the crux of the point I was making?  Mmmm.  Remember the words Jimmy - those words that were the premise of disputing your contention that God would draw all men who hear His Word in the very same way?

QuotePhil 1:6being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

You don't think that the Father drawing a person to Him is a good work?  I guess you don't because God, according to you, is not competent enough to complete what He started.

Finally, I'll quote you and let your words speak:

QuoteAs far as I am concerned the Calvinistic views are a really heinous misrepresentation of the real glory of God.  There is more glory in the God's universe without man than in Calvin's presentation of man as a puppet.

The glory of God is not in the creation.  The creation is to bring glory where it should be - Jesus Christ our Lord.  The real glory of God is found only in Him!!  You have our Lord Jesus Christ suffering, dying for what?  A man that is capable of choosing God?  If that is the case, why oh why did our Lord have to suffer so?  After all, you have the ability to choose God on your own!!  And good for you!  Congratulations.  Way to go!  Where's the glory going now?

QuoteIt is indeed the work of the Holy Spirit who dwells within each of us who is our comforter and our guide.  But it is not solely the work of the Holy Spirit as you profess.

And you give short shrift to the power and work of God's Spirit!!

I highlighted the but, Jimmy.  That's a very dangerous word to use.  If it's not the sole work of the Holy Spirit, then whose work is added to Him?  Man's? 

I would suggest you put Calvin and the silly and hackneyed use of "robot" aside for a while and give the courtesy of commenting on the Scriptures that are being shared.

Quote from: Terrence on Tue Feb 26, 2008 - 02:51:05
"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." - John 1:12-13

How were all the people who received and believed in Jesus' name "born again" according to this scripture? If those who believed in Jesus were born again by God's will and/or decision, how could you say man made the first choice?

It is tough to make a stand on a interpretation from one or two verses. But I will try.

People who received Him and believed in Him (heard the gospel?), they became God's children. It obviously has nothing to do with mans physical being, including his own mind (insight)"not of blood nor of the will of the flesh".
After all of the above , It had to be God's doing. God's will?
Again, two verses?
Can you show any support for this? assuming (I believe) this is what you mean.
I cant deny (to my understanding) this is what these two verses mean, it is only obvious. But I have read many cults and false religions use this "one or two verse" thing and build a doctrine around it.