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I just don't like seeing children being taught to judge others' hearts.   

It's my duty and my reasonable service to my children to teach them truth. I see Catholics everyday who teach catholicism to their children. They believe it and they teach it.

I know my sil gave worship to the Pope, and implied that it was wonderful to see the people lifting him up and praising him. So, don't tell me I am wrong to teach my children truth. Have your own and teach them.

My children are going to call worship, worship. I don't care who likes it.

Besides, I never mentioned the word "Hearts" to my kids, I told them how deceived those people worshiping the Pope are.   

Quote from: kensington on Mon Apr 21, 2008 - 19:59:07
It still bothers me greatly that in the beginning of the "scandal" that Sister Jane Kelly cried out to him for help and he ignored her.

Not until she had contacted him numerous times and then said she was going public with the child molesting did he even reply to her, and then he told her it was an "American" problem. 

Someone said yesterday that a "Cardinal" has no influence to stop such things... I found that to be the most hypocritical thing to be saying...  a Cardinal at the Vatican can vote in the conclave, or even be the next Pope, as he was to be... but he has no connections to protect children in the church?  That is too sad.  If you can get that high and not know who to call to stop priests from abusing children, you are in a sad state of affairs.

Sad indeed. And NOW... He receives the accolades of the deceived masses who probably have no idea that he refused to help.

And what did Sister Jane get for her fight, for her struggle to help the innocent?... She got their backs. They revolked her vows of 55 years.  Sister Jane Kelly is a saint. But, I can't vouch for the rest of them at all...  they appear to wear the garments of hypocrisy at the lowest levels... and back up to the highest levels of that religious system.  Certainly, satan had influence on many of the men and women in that Church.  They fell  hook line and sinker for what he offered them in power over doing the right thing, time and time again. Benedict being Pope is evidence of that.

Read her book... "The Sermon's Of Sister Jane"...  She says  that for 27 years she watched the cases pile up, and the local diocese circle the wagons. She has been speaking out for years, mostly ignored, and now, at 71, she is so outraged that she is writing a book, detailing the sins of the clergy.

Again, I can't really comment on this because I haven't read her story, nor heard both sides of the story.

All I can say is the Church is trying her best to right the wrongs done. Did it take too long? Yes. No one denies that. But again I say, this was not a Catholic problem, it is and was a human problem...you had the same kind of situations in other organizations as well, along with cover ups. Doesn't excuse anything, but I think it's unfair to characterize it as if it only happened in the Catholic Church.

Obviously, nothing I say is going to convince you that the pope is not a greedy, power hungry, corrupt person. If that's what you want to believe, then that is your choice.

Quote from: kensington on Mon Apr 21, 2008 - 20:03:26
Mellevar, I have an obligation to teach my children about everything in life, and especially what goes on in my home. My sil and fil were in my home on friday and they turned it on, and as they spoke what they think and called him "Holy Father" and my sil got on her knees with hands folded... I can speak to that.

I'm sorry you think I don't or shouldn't. I sure am not going to sit passively by and watch her educate them on the hearts of man.  God said to "Judge all things" and that "we will know them by their fruits"...

I still ask, if it is not worship, and it's not right... why do you sit here and tell me that, why are you not going and teaching the deceived Catholics like my sil who do worship him openly. Why don't you do your brothers and sisters in Catholicism right and help them?

As I wrote earlier, it is not we Catholics who think we're worshipping the pope, it is non-Catholics who think we are, largely because they are unfamiliar with Catholic "body language" so to speak.

I'll say again:

I understand that it's hard for non-Catholics to see the outward signs of honor and understand what we mean by them, but I think if they were more familiar with certain outward signs that were reserved for God alone (most visibly in the Eucharist), they would see that Catholics are not confused about worshipping the pope as one would worship God, it's just the non-Catholics who don't know our collective "body language" that misunderstand. In our hearts, we know and understand the difference, and we acknowledge this difference in word and action if anyone looks closely enough...it's rather uncharitable to assume that we don't, I think.

Quote from: kensington on Mon Apr 21, 2008 - 20:08:41
Besides, I never mentioned the word "Hearts" to my kids, I told them how deceived those people worshiping the Pope are.   

I'm sorry to hear that.

Let me clarify...if one asked Catholics "Are you worshipping the pope?" and they said yes, I wouldn't have a problem with someone saying to their children, "How deceived those people worshipping the pope are."

What bothers me is that when you ask a Catholic, "Are you worshipping the pope?" every Catholic I know personally would say, "Of course not!" So I see it as a misrepresentation of our faith to tell children we are. And it makes me sad.

If your SIL says "Yes" to that question, by the way, I'd love to chat with her, as I do indeed correct misinformation I see from Catholics and non Catholics alike.

What is a sil and a fil?

I haven't had the nerve to try to read everything on this thread, but sil is usually sister-in-law and fil father-in-law.

Either that, or they're the twins on Rugrats.

thanks marc

Say, James, just now connected for the first time today.  Where are all the other posts relating to "The Holy Father & Mormon  Polygamy"?  I wasn't able to find them.

---Buff.

Quote from: Reformer on Mon Apr 21, 2008 - 20:56:39
Say, James, just now connected for the first time today.  Where are all the other posts relating to "The Holy Father & Mormon  Polygamy"?  I wasn't able to find them.

---Buff.

The thread was moved by a moderator to the Moderator's Forum due to some less than civil discussion, starting with the first post.

Quote from: Tantor on Mon Apr 21, 2008 - 16:09:26

Quote from: don has a plan on Mon Apr 21, 2008 - 16:05:34

Quote from: mllevaleur on Mon Apr 21, 2008 - 12:06:49
Hmm...I'm saddened when I see fellow Christians judging the hearts of others. 

All the Catholics I know who went to see the pope did not at all worship him, they welcomed him to our country and honored him, yes, the way you would a queen or president. His message the entire trip was "Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Christ is our Hope."

I understand that it's hard for non-Catholics to see the outward signs of honor and understand what we mean by them, but I think if they were more familiar with certain outward signs that were reserved for God alone (most visibly in the Eucharist), they would see that Catholics are not confused about worshipping the pope as one would worship God, it's just the non-Catholics who don't know our collective "body language" that misunderstand. In our hearts, we know and understand the difference, and we acknowledge this difference in word and action if anyone looks closely enough...it's rather uncharitable to assume that we don't, I think.

Very good post.

It is so unfortunate that the moderators of this site continue to let hate-filled garbage ruin this once fine board.  I wish that one--just one--moderator would step up and say enough's enough.  Instead, we have at least one moderator openly participating in the hate.  Sad, sad.

Lee -- Some of your brothers and sisters in Christ are being targeted here.  This is anything but 'grace-centered'.  Won't you please put a stop to it?

Unfortunately for the 30 minutes or so that I could stomach watching all the Pope coverage over the weekend, I never heard the Pope mention Jesus even once.

The coverage he got really irks me... there is no way in the world that America should be venerating that man so much since the very founding of this country was in part due to people fleeing the catholic persecution in Europe ..  Its the same with a lot of the protestants supporting the King James Bible.  What the heck are we all thinking?

The Pilgrims and Quakers all suffered persecution from Catholicism.

It's been a long time since college, but I thought the Pilgrims came here fleeing persecution from the Church of England.  In other words, from Protestants.

(Actually, I understand they came here in order to run things their own way, but persecution makes a much better story.)

Furthermore, I thought the Quakers were persecuted by the Puritans? Which would, again, be persecution by fellow Protestants, I suppose.

Quote from: Reformer on Mon Apr 21, 2008 - 20:56:39
Say, James, just now connected for the first time today.  Where are all the other posts relating to "The Holy Father & Mormon  Polygamy"?  I wasn't able to find them.

---Buff.

Hello Buff. As Gary already mentioned, another moderator decided to lock that thread, along with the "Roman Catholic atrocities"and "Protestant atrocities" threads.

Quote from: kmv on Mon Apr 21, 2008 - 21:19:08

Quote from: Tantor on Mon Apr 21, 2008 - 16:09:26

Quote from: don has a plan on Mon Apr 21, 2008 - 16:05:34


Very good post.

It is so unfortunate that the moderators of this site continue to let hate-filled garbage ruin this once fine board.  I wish that one--just one--moderator would step up and say enough's enough.  Instead, we have at least one moderator openly participating in the hate.  Sad, sad.

Lee -- Some of your brothers and sisters in Christ are being targeted here.  This is anything but 'grace-centered'.  Won't you please put a stop to it?

Unfortunately for the 30 minutes or so that I could stomach watching all the Pope coverage over the weekend, I never heard the Pope mention Jesus even once.

The coverage he got really irks me... there is no way in the world that America should be venerating that man so much since the very founding of this country was in part due to people fleeing the catholic persecution in Europe ..  Its the same with a lot of the protestants supporting the King James Bible.  What the heck are we all thinking?

The Pilgrims and Quakers all suffered persecution from Catholicism.

It's been a long time since college, but I thought the Pilgrims came here fleeing persecution from the Church of England.  In other words, from Protestants.

(Actually, I understand they came here in order to run things their own way, but persecution makes a much better story.)

Furthermore, I thought the Quakers were persecuted by the Puritans? Which would, again, be persecution by fellow Protestants, I suppose.

Tantor's post was so full of ignorance that it was hard for me to even start critiquing it.  Better ignorance than outright lies (such as 'Catholics worship the pope'), I suppose.


Jaime --

Thank you for your response.  If I may speculate a bit, I will. 

After posting here for some time (dating back several years under a different screen name), I have learned that there are different kinds of posters.  The kind that intrigues me most is the kind that has been dominant in the anti-Catholic hysteria.  That kind is the person who is powerless and rather insignificant in real life.  The kind who has no real voice in society.  The kind who feels left out.  The kind who lacks education and is rejected by larger society as an intellectual or scholar but who desperately wants to be taken seriously.  The kind who sets up his own church where he gets to be ruler...and gets enthused when he finds a person or two who is more gullible and weaker than himself to follow him. 

It's pretty clear there are two or three of those folks here.  It's hard to know whether to feel sorry for them or be afraid of them.  They have become something of a sadistic cult.  They have to be better than something -- anything.  So they find a whipping boy, and they feel better about themselves.  Catholicism has become this sadistic cult's whipping boy.

I figure my time is limited because I'm not going to watch the abuse continue.  It's sort of like a gang rape.

Beam me up.

It seems as if this post was overlooked...

Quote from: James Rondon on Mon Apr 21, 2008 - 13:03:39

Quote from: constantine on Mon Apr 21, 2008 - 10:44:12

Quote from: jmg3rd on Mon Apr 21, 2008 - 10:41:39

Quote from: constantine on Mon Apr 21, 2008 - 10:36:25
Catholics are taught to only worship God.

Yes, but you'll find that to most of us non-Catholics the fine line you try to draw between "veneration" and "worship" is from our pov non-existent.  When a mere man accepts the kind of "veneration" that even the angels refused (remember the angel telling the Apostle John to get up after he bowed down before him) it seems to non-Catholics a line is crossed that should not be.

I understand.  Does it help you to know that (although you disagree) at least, Catholics do reserve worship (in the strictest sense) for God alone?

So then, worship in the not so strictest of senses is allowed for Popes, and others?

Don, this whole Catholic/Protestant thing is clearly a two way train wreck. It's not all one sided Catholic Bashing. Like I said before, It's been tit for tat for some time. It's hard to figure out which tit or which tat came first.    Pointing out error is not hate speech. If that were the case, then I am one of the most hated posters on the board, simply because I am the chief of the error makers. Scripture reigns supreme in my mind and the tradition of men means little even if it is 1900 plus years old. My traditions though not as old as the Catholic traditions are just as subject to scriptures as theirs. One example in my case is musical instruments in worship. Several years ago, I coulda harped the paint off of a battleship arguing that a cappela music was the only correct New Testament way. I have been convinced otherwise. Just because something is strongly held for many years does not make it immune to scrutiny.

Your comments are laughable, Don, and to use a phrase that you are so enamored with, "full of ignorance". If any of the supposed "anti-Catholics" would have posted a smidgeon of what you just posted, the moderator's forum would be buzzing right now. And, yes, if you keep making posts like that, your time here is surely limited.

Quote from: don has a plan on Mon Apr 21, 2008 - 22:01:36

Quote from: kmv on Mon Apr 21, 2008 - 21:19:08

Quote from: Tantor on Mon Apr 21, 2008 - 16:09:26

Quote from: don has a plan on Mon Apr 21, 2008 - 16:05:34


Very good post.

It is so unfortunate that the moderators of this site continue to let hate-filled garbage ruin this once fine board.  I wish that one--just one--moderator would step up and say enough's enough.  Instead, we have at least one moderator openly participating in the hate.  Sad, sad.

Lee -- Some of your brothers and sisters in Christ are being targeted here.  This is anything but 'grace-centered'.  Won't you please put a stop to it?

Unfortunately for the 30 minutes or so that I could stomach watching all the Pope coverage over the weekend, I never heard the Pope mention Jesus even once.

The coverage he got really irks me... there is no way in the world that America should be venerating that man so much since the very founding of this country was in part due to people fleeing the catholic persecution in Europe ..  Its the same with a lot of the protestants supporting the King James Bible.  What the heck are we all thinking?

The Pilgrims and Quakers all suffered persecution from Catholicism.

It's been a long time since college, but I thought the Pilgrims came here fleeing persecution from the Church of England.  In other words, from Protestants.

(Actually, I understand they came here in order to run things their own way, but persecution makes a much better story.)

Furthermore, I thought the Quakers were persecuted by the Puritans? Which would, again, be persecution by fellow Protestants, I suppose.

Tantor's post was so full of ignorance that it was hard for me to even start critiquing it.  Better ignorance than outright lies (such as 'Catholics worship the pope'), I suppose.


Jaime --

Thank you for your response.  If I may speculate a bit, I will. 

After posting here for some time (dating back several years under a different screen name), I have learned that there are different kinds of posters.  The kind that intrigues me most is the kind that has been dominant in the anti-Catholic hysteria.  That kind is the person who is powerless and rather insignificant in real life.  The kind who has no real voice in society.  The kind who feels left out.  The kind who lacks education and is rejected by larger society as an intellectual or scholar but who desperately wants to be taken seriously.  The kind who sets up his own church where he gets to be ruler...and gets enthused when he finds a person or two who is more gullible and weaker than himself to follow him. 

It's pretty clear there are two or three of those folks here.  It's hard to know whether to feel sorry for them or be afraid of them.  They have become something of a sadistic cult.  They have to be better than something -- anything.  So they find a whipping boy, and they feel better about themselves.  Catholicism has become this sadistic cult's whipping boy.

I figure my time is limited because I'm not going to watch the abuse continue.  It's sort of like a gang rape.

Beam me up.

Don, you might want to change your plan.

If you mean guys like Spurgeon (quoted below) fit your description, there is no need to feel sorry for him, he is with Christ now. It is a shame about the popes though....

Quote
I question if hell can find a more fitting instrument within its
infernal lake than the Church of Rome is for the cause of mischief.
....
Christ did not redeem his church with his blood that the pope might
come in and steal away the glory. He never came from heaven to earth,
and poured out his very heart that he might purchase his people, that
a poor sinner, a mere man, should be set upon high to be admired
by all the nations, and to call himself God's representative on earth.
Christ has always been the Head of the church.

CRP

Heres another quote I was reminded of by Spurgeon (aka. The Price of Preachers):

"It is the bounden duty of every Christian to pray against Antichrist, and as to what Antichrist is no sane man ought to raise a question. If it be not the Popery in the Church of Rome there is nothing in the world that can be called by that name. It wounds Christ, robs Christ of His glory, puts sacramental efficacy in the place of His atonement, and lifts a piece of bread in the place of the Saviour....If we pray against it, because it is against Him, we shall love the persons though we hate their errors; we shall love their souls, though we loathe and detest their dogmas...."

-- C. H. Spurgeon

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Mon Apr 21, 2008 - 22:59:30
Heres another quote I was reminded of by Spurgeon (aka. The Price of Preachers):

"It is the bounden duty of every Christian to pray against Antichrist, and as to what Antichrist is no sane man ought to raise a question. If it be not the Popery in the Church of Rome there is nothing in the world that can be called by that name. It wounds Christ, robs Christ of His glory, puts sacramental efficacy in the place of His atonement, and lifts a piece of bread in the place of the Saviour....If we pray against it, because it is against Him, we shall love the persons though we hate their errors; we shall love their souls, though we loathe and detest their dogmas...."

-- C. H. Spurgeon

That is the quote I had on my mind, but couldn't quite find it.... hats off to the finder

CRP

Jaime --

I think I hit the nail on the head. 

When threads are started specifically to bait Catholics into no-win discussions, when one Catholic tries to present a case but is piled on by six or eight or ten fundamentalists, when one poster's tag line includes a link to his own personal website which exists solely to bash Catholics -- When all of those things happen, then this has become an anti-Catholic website.  When the moderators absolutely refuse to enforce the rules and keep discussions moving in a positive direction, then this has become an anti-Catholic website.  If you consider a dozen people ganging up on one or two to be 'fair' and 'tit for tat', then this has become an anti-Catholic website.  If the moderators absolutely refuse to remove posts that contain charges that are obviously false, then this has become an anti-Catholic website.

Is it really Lee's wish to be identified as the owner of an anti-Catholic website?  I thought this was supposed to be a pro 'grace centered' website.


James --

With regard to your post -- I think I hit the nail on the head. 

Quote from: don has a plan on Tue Apr 22, 2008 - 08:21:20
Jaime --

I think I hit the nail on the head. 

When threads are started specifically to bait Catholics into no-win discussions, when one Catholic tries to present a case but is piled on by six or eight or ten fundamentalists, when one poster's tag line includes a link to his own personal website which exists solely to bash Catholics -- When all of those things happen, then this has become an anti-Catholic website.  When the moderators absolutely refuse to enforce the rules and keep discussions moving in a positive direction, then this has become an anti-Catholic website.  If you consider a dozen people ganging up on one or two to be 'fair' and 'tit for tat', then this has become an anti-Catholic website.  If the moderators absolutely refuse to remove posts that are contain charges that are obviously false, then this has become an anti-Catholic website.

Is it really Lee's wish to be identified as the owner of an anti-Catholic website?  I thought this was supposed to be a pro 'grace centered' website.


James --

With regard to your post -- I think I hit the nail on the head. 

Don, I don't think you have hit the nail on the head. I have been ganged up on recently in my opinion by the Once Saved Always Saved Crowd. They probably feel like the same way about me and the folks like me. No one is immune to being called under scrutiny of the scriptures. It hurts when one's strongly held beliefs are spoken of in a negative light. I admit that. I would for sure like to put aside the Catholic/Protestant spats or at least have BOTH sides behave in a calmer manner. But this is not a one-sided problem. I have seen many posts that have been reported that frankly were not against any rule. They just seemed harsh to the hearer. Yes I believe the 3rd party articles that call either side a cult or heretics are out of line. I have seen articles on both side do just that. Like I said before, someone ranting against a cappela music woulda been considered "flaming" to me. Just as some of us don't like it when other of our long held beliefs are called into scrutiny of the scripture.

I can and do get too sarcastic in my responses as I have seen others do as well. We would all be amazed at how much good we can do with our words if we leave out the sarcasm. And that IS the problem I have seen on BOTH sides as a moderator. If you consider this to be a bad discussion board, Don I would not in anyway want to discourage you from leaving. But if you want to stay, I welcome your input. Neither side in the Catholic/Protestant fights are the victim. Peace and tranquility of this family is the victim. When either or both side sees no room for growth then it's time to quit the discussion and moveon.

It's unfortunate that you're a party-line type of guy.  I think if you were Catholic--or even neutral--you would see things very differently. 

I still like you -- but you're terribly wrong in this case.  Terribly.

Quote from: don has a plan on Tue Apr 22, 2008 - 09:01:10
It's unfortunate that you're a party-line type of guy.  I think if you were Catholic--or even neutral--you would see things very differently. 

I still like you -- but you're terribly wrong in this case.  Terribly.

What party line? I am not a Catholic basher nor am I a Catholic apologist. That's pretty neutral don't ya think?

And I still like you, but I think you probably aren't neutral either. If I am a Catholic basher, I am just as guilty of being a Baptist basher or a Methodist basher. I am a basher of wrong application of scripture even of my own tribe the Church of Christ. Afterall, I am a dastardly "change agent" according to a bunch of my more conservative brethren.

PS, Don I have seen many posts reported lately that were no more abusive than your last sentence. And I'm not implying yours was, but that folks get way over sensitized on this stuff.

Quote from: don has a plan on Tue Apr 22, 2008 - 09:01:10
It's unfortunate that you're a party-line type of guy.

If one thinks there is a "party line" among the moderators, they must also believe in the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, and a politician-brokered perpetual Middle East peace, all of which have a better shot at existence than the moderators all being in agreement.

Quote from: jmg3rd on Tue Apr 22, 2008 - 09:14:25

Quote from: don has a plan on Tue Apr 22, 2008 - 09:01:10
It's unfortunate that you're a party-line type of guy.

If one thinks there is a "party line" among the moderators, they must also believe in the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, and a politician-brokered perpetual Middle East peace, all of which have a better shot at existence than the moderators all being in agreement.

In the famous words of cousin Eddie in National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation:

"Are you serious Clark?!

I consider the anglican and catholic church to be almost identical at the time of the pilgrims.. the only difference was the head being either the pope or king.  Both churches were bent on making their members submit to their rule or die.

Quote from: don has a plan on Tue Apr 22, 2008 - 08:21:20When threads are started specifically to bait Catholics into no-win discussions, when one Catholic tries to present a case but is piled on by six or eight or ten fundamentalists, when one poster's tag line includes a link to his own personal website which exists solely to bash Catholics -- When all of those things happen, then this has become an anti-Catholic website.  When the moderators absolutely refuse to enforce the rules and keep discussions moving in a positive direction, then this has become an anti-Catholic website.  If you consider a dozen people ganging up on one or two to be 'fair' and 'tit for tat', then this has become an anti-Catholic website.  If the moderators absolutely refuse to remove posts that contain charges that are obviously false, then this has become an anti-Catholic website.

Is it really Lee's wish to be identified as the owner of an anti-Catholic website?  I thought this was supposed to be a pro 'grace centered' website.

Just another case of sympathizers demonizing the opposition and trying to squelch them on the boards. Special pleading, glittering generalities, buzzwords (anti-catholic), and the composite fallacy that because a number of people here verbally disagree with catholic doctrines that either we are silenced or expelled or the entire site will be considered anti-catholic.

Just pure prejudiced propaganda.

Quote from: Jaime on Tue Apr 22, 2008 - 09:19:28

Quote from: jmg3rd on Tue Apr 22, 2008 - 09:14:25

Quote from: don has a plan on Tue Apr 22, 2008 - 09:01:10
It's unfortunate that you're a party-line type of guy.

If one thinks there is a "party line" among the moderators, they must also believe in the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, and a politician-brokered perpetual Middle East peace, all of which have a better shot at existence than the moderators all being in agreement.

In the famous words of cousin Eddie in National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation:

"Are you serious Clark?!

As a heart attack, Jack.  What Don doesn't realize (and others, too) is that some of the offensive threads stay on so long not because mods agree with them, but because sometimes there is an unseen debate among the mods about how to handle said threads, often with very, very diverse opinions on the matter.  A party line it certainly is not.

Quote from: jmg3rd on Tue Apr 22, 2008 - 09:25:36

Quote from: Jaime on Tue Apr 22, 2008 - 09:19:28

Quote from: jmg3rd on Tue Apr 22, 2008 - 09:14:25

Quote from: don has a plan on Tue Apr 22, 2008 - 09:01:10
It's unfortunate that you're a party-line type of guy.

If one thinks there is a "party line" among the moderators, they must also believe in the tooth fairy, Santa Claus, and a politician-brokered perpetual Middle East peace, all of which have a better shot at existence than the moderators all being in agreement.

In the famous words of cousin Eddie in National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation:

"Are you serious Clark?!

As a heart attack, Jack.  What Don doesn't realize (and others, too) is that some of the offensive threads stay on so long not because mods agree with them, but because sometimes there is an unseen debate among the mods about how to handle said threads, often with very, very diverse opinions on the matter.  A party line it certainly is not.

Absolutely true! The moderator's forum has been equally "exciting" here lately!

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Mon Apr 21, 2008 - 22:59:30
Heres another quote I was reminded of by Spurgeon (aka. The Price of Preachers):

"It is the bounden duty of every Christian to pray against Antichrist, and as to what Antichrist is no sane man ought to raise a question. If it be not the Popery in the Church of Rome there is nothing in the world that can be called by that name. It wounds Christ, robs Christ of His glory, puts sacramental efficacy in the place of His atonement, and lifts a piece of bread in the place of the Saviour....If we pray against it, because it is against Him, we shall love the persons though we hate their errors; we shall love their souls, though we loathe and detest their dogmas...."

-- C. H. Spurgeon

Ok...so did anyone read all the quotes I put from Pope Benedict above all essentially saying "CHRIST ALONE is our hope" I find it curious that no one has commented on them. I guess when it's not fuel for the anti-Catholic fire, it's not worth mentioning. 

I don't have any issues with your quotes from the Pope. I would assume he would be saying Christ Alone is our Hope. Even if he were the "anti-Christ" as Spurgeon stated, he obviously wouldn't be be openly denying Christ if he were here to deceive. Which by the way I don't believe he is here to deceive.

Quote from: Jaime on Tue Apr 22, 2008 - 08:47:58

Quote from: don has a plan on Tue Apr 22, 2008 - 08:21:20
Jaime --

I think I hit the nail on the head. 

When threads are started specifically to bait Catholics into no-win discussions, when one Catholic tries to present a case but is piled on by six or eight or ten fundamentalists, when one poster's tag line includes a link to his own personal website which exists solely to bash Catholics -- When all of those things happen, then this has become an anti-Catholic website.  When the moderators absolutely refuse to enforce the rules and keep discussions moving in a positive direction, then this has become an anti-Catholic website.  If you consider a dozen people ganging up on one or two to be 'fair' and 'tit for tat', then this has become an anti-Catholic website.  If the moderators absolutely refuse to remove posts that are contain charges that are obviously false, then this has become an anti-Catholic website.

Is it really Lee's wish to be identified as the owner of an anti-Catholic website?  I thought this was supposed to be a pro 'grace centered' website.


James --

With regard to your post -- I think I hit the nail on the head. 

Don, I don't think you have hit the nail on the head. I have been ganged up on recently in my opinion by the Once Saved Always Saved Crowd. They probably feel like the same way about me and the folks like me. No one is immune to being called under scrutiny of the scriptures. It hurts when one's strongly held beliefs are spoken of in a negative light. I admit that. I would for sure like to put aside the Catholic/Protestant spats or at least have BOTH sides behave in a calmer manner. But this is not a one-sided problem. I have seen many posts that have been reported that frankly were not against any rule. They just seemed harsh to the hearer. Yes I believe the 3rd party articles that call either side a cult or heretics are out of line. I have seen articles on both side do just that. Like I said before, someone ranting against a cappela music woulda been considered "flaming" to me. Just as some of us don't like it when other of our long held beliefs are called into scrutiny of the scripture.

I can and do get too sarcastic in my responses as I have seen others do as well. We would all be amazed at how much good we can do with our words if we leave out the sarcasm. And that IS the problem I have seen on BOTH sides as a moderator. If you consider this to be a bad discussion board, Don I would not in anyway want to discourage you from leaving. But if you want to stay, I welcome your input. Neither side in the Catholic/Protestant fights are the victim. Peace and tranquility of this family is the victim. When either or both side sees no room for growth then it's time to quit the discussion and moveon.

Here's a few of the differences between your conflicts regarding worship style and the conflicts between Catholics and Protestants:

1.  The people who are challenging acapella worship in church believe the issue to be an in-house discussion between two churches that are part of the body of Christ.  The people that are challenging Catholic doctrine believe it is false doctrine.

2.  People who are challenging Catholic doctrine do so in a global way - believing in the truth of Catholicism is not possible if you want to follow Christ.  Unlike holding certain beliefs about worship style, a true acceptance of Catholic doctrine separates you from the body of Christ.

3.  Your discussions with people about music actually present all sides of the issues in a factual way.  One side believes music with instraments should be allowed the other side disagrees and you both argue from scripture.  In many cases, people who have been challenging Catholic doctrine lately, do not actually challenge what the RCC teaches, like Don pointed out, they attack strawmen - the RCC teaches Catholics to worship the Pope or statues is not an honest statement.

4.  You are given the benefit of the doubt in your arguments and position.  People believe you are coming from the point of view of a Christian who believes differently from the majority on this board.  Catholics are given the benefit of the doubt that they worship the Pope, statues, and are simply misinformed about what they believe (why else would someone be Catholic?)

I think you are right that people on both sides are angry.  People challenging Catholic doctrine are angry that Catholic ideas are allowed to be posted here.  Catholics are angry because of the constant and inaccurate opposition to their POV, especially because the rules of the forum allow for the Catholic POV and do not exclude it from the body of Christ.

If Proetestants were really simply disagreeing with Catholics on specific doctrine like the Pope, they would be honest about what the RCC teaches about the Pope, rather than posting slanderous, hate filled, conspiracry theories.  There is plenty to disagree with about the Pope when RCC teachings are presented accurately.  I believe the true intent of certain people on this board is not to have an honest discussion - it is to chase all Catholics from this board and exclude them from post their POV.

So I am sorry Jamie, I am going to have to disagree with you.  I think Don is definitely right.

Quote from: constantine on Tue Apr 22, 2008 - 10:27:32

So I am sorry Jamie, I am going to have to disagree with you.  I think Don is definitely right.

No problem, disagreement is good. Hateful, snot slinging fights are not.................See that wasn't so hard. A discusson forum is not necessarily a winner take all proposition, where the losers and wounded are summarily bayonneted by the victors. Disagreements can happen even heated disagreements. And it's OK.

I look back at mine and Don's exchanges of late on this particular thread and either one of us coulda easily escalated the argument up a notch and then another and then another. BUT, we didn't! It took some effort, I know on my part. Did either of us change the time/space continuum or even budge the other's opinion...........not in the least, but we posted our thoughts and moved on.

It can be done.

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Tue Apr 22, 2008 - 09:24:53

Quote from: don has a plan on Tue Apr 22, 2008 - 08:21:20When threads are started specifically to bait Catholics into no-win discussions, when one Catholic tries to present a case but is piled on by six or eight or ten fundamentalists, when one poster's tag line includes a link to his own personal website which exists solely to bash Catholics -- When all of those things happen, then this has become an anti-Catholic website.  When the moderators absolutely refuse to enforce the rules and keep discussions moving in a positive direction, then this has become an anti-Catholic website.  If you consider a dozen people ganging up on one or two to be 'fair' and 'tit for tat', then this has become an anti-Catholic website.  If the moderators absolutely refuse to remove posts that contain charges that are obviously false, then this has become an anti-Catholic website.

Is it really Lee's wish to be identified as the owner of an anti-Catholic website?  I thought this was supposed to be a pro 'grace centered' website.

Just another case of sympathizers demonizing the opposition and trying to squelch them on the boards. Special pleading, glittering generalities, buzzwords (anti-catholic), and the composite fallacy that because a number of people here verbally disagree with catholic doctrines that either we are silenced or expelled or the entire site will be considered anti-catholic.

Just pure prejudiced propaganda.

Ok, so I've been pretty absent during all this stuff, and coming in I'm looking at it with fresh eyes. I like to think that I can be pretty objective, despite my being Catholic. Certainly tempers have been flaring on both sides.

I don't mind people saying "this or that Catholic teaching is false." I don't even mind people telling me they think I'm wrong for what I believe. I don't mind them telling me why they think I'm wrong. All of this is, in fact, what discussion is about.

Where it crosses the line, in my opinion, is when someone tells me I'm wrong for something I DO NOT believe or do. That is simply dishonest.

I imagine I would be reprimanded should I tell a Baptist friend, in a discussion, that he is in danger of Hell because he thought it was ok to murder people after accepting Christ. Especially if he said to me, "What?!?! But I don't think that at all!" and I continued to tell him (as if I somehow knew his heart and mind better than him) that he indeed did believe that, and continued to condemn him for it.

Why in the world would I need to resort to dishonesty like that to condemn him? Why would I not listen to him and take him at his word, that he doesn't believe that and would never promote it? If someone were acting in this way, I'd say it looks like they WANT to believe the worst about their baptist brother despite what the baptist himself says...and I'd say it looks like they are anti-baptist for some unknown reason.

Put this back in Catholic context...some people accuse Catholics of certain things. The Catholics say, "That's not true, we don't' believe that," and yet people continue to condemn Catholics for those things. I would think true Christian charity would mean rejoicing in finding out one was mistaken and Catholics actually don't believe what they mistakenly thought. I always rejoice when I find I agree more with a brother or sister in Christ than I first thought....and yet, it seems many, when told by Catholics "But we don't believe that," rather than taking this at face value and rejoicing, actually dare to tell the Catholic himself that he is incorrect about his belief, and he most certainly does believe this. How is this charitable or honest? Unless the person is God Himself he cannot know what is in the heart or mind of the Catholic, and to reject his instistence that he doesn't believe that is essentially calling him a liar.

So this is what I see as anti-Catholicism...the almost frenzied desire to believe the worst about the Catholics' beliefs, despite what the Catholics themselves say.

You see this frenzied desire when a flurry of posts follows a particularly mistaken explanation of Catholicism, praising this faux representation of our beliefs. You see this frenzied desire in reverse when an authentically  Catholic explanation is essentially ignored, presumably because it sounds too genuinely Christian and doesn't provide fuel for the fire.

So, the above is what I mean when I say anti-Catholic. Mis-representing my beliefs, repeatedly (I always assume when I first see misconceptions about my beliefs that the person is genuinely mistaken...when I correct the misconception, though, and see it repeated elsewhere by the same person, I begin to question their motives.) Apparently wanting to believe the worst about Catholics, reveling in descriptions of corruption and evil (whether true or not) within Catholicism, and always assuming that if someone says something bad about Catholicism it must be true without actually checking facts. It all stems from a desire to hate the Catholic Church, and by extension Catholics and their beliefs. That is anti-Catholicism.

Do I see it here? Yes, from some, though certainly not all.

And here's what I expect to be the response to this post from such people..."But we're not misrepresenting your beliefs, you actually DO believe all these horrible things."

Which only proves my point...they don't want to listen or hear what I say I believe, they want to tell me what I believe and condemn me for it without even hearing me out.

I have no ill will towards anyone here...in fact I was once very anti-Catholic myself, and I know the visceral reaction against "popery", I know the sense of disgust even the words alone bring up, the feelings of incredulity that anyone could ever "fall" for all their deceit and lies. I know these feelings all too well...and after having been freed from them, I also know that Satan is the Father of Lies, and was very happy to keep me in this fog of hate and disgust, because it kept me from examining Catholic teaching from the source itself, it kept me in shadows and out of clarity and light, it kept me from seeing the reality for quite a long time. My first step out was seeing that it seemed people kept misrepresenting the same things about Catholics, when Catholics themselves denied those things...and I wondered, why would good ever want to misrepresent evil, if evil Catholicism was already evil enough on its own? That was my first step out of the fog....

I have much to do so I can't promise to be around to respond much, but I felt like simply presenting things from my POV. I hope it's apparent that, thus far, I haven't responded in anger or attacked anyone, I've simply tried to present my viewpoint and perspective of what sometimes goes on here as honestly as possible, and I'll leave it to others to draw their own conclusions about whether it matches reality or not.

God bless you all.