Christian Forums

I came from those folks myself.



But I was thinking of the 'no visual aides' camp on this thread.  Do you put crosses in that category?

Quote from: kensington on Thu May 01, 2008 - 16:37:29
So, then... you only kiss your statues on Good Friday.

You said you "Kiss Jesus" on Good friday. Then, you must think that Statue is Jesus?  Why Kiss the statue's feet if that is not really Jesus there?

Kissing the image, would be worship.  Of course not to you... but to people in the REAL WORLD... it wold be. And by the Word of God and the commands HE gave to NOT do it.

How far do you take the scripture regarding image worship, Kensington?

Does your church have a picture or statue of Jesus?   Does your bible have a picture of of Jesus? 

If you take scripture literally, mere existence of paintings and statues of Jesus are sinful. 

Maybe we can put together an iconoclasts meet-up group.

We'll get some horses, and ride around smashing statues.  Sounds like fun, no?

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Fri May 02, 2008 - 12:56:34
Maybe we can put together an iconoclasts meet-up group.

We'll get some horses, and ride around smashing statues.  Sounds like fun, no?

Hey, dude, I know where to begin.  First stop... take out the Musica Statue here in Nashville.

Quote from: DCR on Sat May 03, 2008 - 08:38:02

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Fri May 02, 2008 - 12:56:34
Maybe we can put together an iconoclasts meet-up group.

We'll get some horses, and ride around smashing statues.  Sounds like fun, no?

Hey, dude, I know where to begin.  First stop... take out the Musica Statue here in Nashville.

Ew.

Quote from: Hopes-n-Dreams on Thu May 01, 2008 - 23:06:23

Quote from: kensington on Thu May 01, 2008 - 16:37:29
So, then... you only kiss your statues on Good Friday.

You said you "Kiss Jesus" on Good friday. Then, you must think that Statue is Jesus?  Why Kiss the statue's feet if that is not really Jesus there?

Kissing the image, would be worship.  Of course not to you... but to people in the REAL WORLD... it wold be. And by the Word of God and the commands HE gave to NOT do it.

How far do you take the scripture regarding image worship, Kensington?

Does your church have a picture or statue of Jesus?   Does your bible have a picture of of Jesus? 

If you take scripture literally, mere existence of paintings and statues of Jesus are sinful. 

No, my church doesn't have a picture of Jesus, and no ... there is not one in my bible.

I think how far you take it would depend on this one thing.... Do you get on your knees in front of it an pray?  Do you stand or sit before it with folded hands, with an attitude of prayer and worship?  Do you prostrate yourself before it in times of prayer and worship?

If I had a picture or even a cross that was being used in my home in that manner, I'd get rid of it.  Once I thought I needed it for prayer or worship, it would be sin.  My sin, and I would have to cut it off from me. We do not need visual aids for worship and prayer. Those who say that is not what they are doing, are deceived.   

No... if you take the scripture literally paintings are not sinful...  If you are using them as visual aids for worship and prayer... then you are the one sinning. Not the statue or the picture.

 Stephanie, you wrote the following on April 28.  I'm only now getting around to offering a few remarks.
 

QuoteGod forbade the worship of statues, but he did not forbid the religious use of statues. Instead, he actually commanded their use in religious contexts!

To support your claim, you quoted from Exodus 25:18-20, I Chron. 28:18-19, and a number of other passages.  You then added:
   

QuoteGod forbids the worship of images as gods, but he doesn't ban the making of images. If he had, religious movies, videos, photographs, paintings, and all similar things would be banned. But, as the case of the bronze serpent shows, God does not even forbid the ritual use of religious images.

I guess I'm having a problem with your logic, particularly when you try to apply what God authorized and commanded under the Old Law of Moses—the system of externals—to the era of grace or redeemed community.  Furthermore, you seem to contradict the very God from whom you quote.  For it was God who instructed His children under Moses...

    "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters under the earth.  You shall not bow down to them or serve them" (Ex. 20:4-5). 

    Now tell me:  Assuming you are correct in your understanding of God's authorizing the creation of certain graven images under the Old Order, where in the New Order does He authorize the creations for which Roman Catholicism, and some segments of Protestantism, is famous?

    But another question:  In the scriptures above, God makes it plain that His people are not to bow down to any image made for religious purposes, regardless.  Yet Catholics bow down to all of the images they have created.  If this bowing down is not a distortion of God's command, what would you need to do, then, to distort God's command?  Understand, please, I said nothing about worship.  I'm speaking only of bowing down before an image.  But again:

    "You shall not make idols or yourselves or erect an image or pillar, and you shall not set up a figured stone in your land to bow down to it"[/i] (Lev. 26:1-2).

    Tell me:  Do you Catholics bow down to your images?  Note, again, I said nothing about worshipping the image.  I'm speaking only of bowing down before it.

    One more thought:  "Cursed be the man who makes a carved or cast metal image, an abomination to the Lord..." (Deut. 27:15).

    Has God told the Roman Catholic Hierarchy to make religious images and bow down to them?  If yes, where in the new scriptures is the instruction found?  Again, I have said nothing about worshipping the images.  I will await your answers.

—Buff.

QuoteExodus 32:

2 Aaron answered them, "Take off the gold earrings that your wives, your sons and your daughters are wearing, and bring them to me." 3 So all the people took off their earrings and brought them to Aaron. 4 He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, "These are your gods*,  O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt."

5 When Aaron saw this, he built an altar in front of the calf and announced, "Tomorrow there will be a festival to the LORD**." 6 So the next day the people rose early and sacrificed burnt offerings and presented fellowship offerings. [c] Afterward they sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.

* "gods" = Heb. "elohim" - plural of 433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative.

** "LORD" = Heb. "YHWH" (the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God.

It's interesting that Aaron and the other Israelites believed they were not worshiping an idol that represented another god, but created an idol to help them worship God.  The word they use is YHWH, Jehovah.  I wonder if this helps us to better understand God's intention in regard to the 2nd commandment?  They believed they were still feasting and worshiping Jehovah not another god.

(No, I'm not saying that it is necessarily parallel, neither am I saying it isn't.  I just think this may get to the heart of the 2nd commandment when you consider Moses' and God's reactions to the graven image used in worship of Jehovah.  Just something to chew on.)

Good observation.

Quote from: Reformer on Sat May 03, 2008 - 15:13:09
    Tell me:  Do you Catholics bow down to your images?  Note, again, I said nothing about worshipping the image.  I'm speaking only of bowing down before it.

Your questions remind me of a summer I spent at a Methodist summer horse camp as a teenager.  I was raised Catholic.  I attended this camp with my best friend.  While I was at the camp, I was confronted and accosted by youth leaders asking why we knelt down in the isle in front of the cross prior to taking our seats in church.  The way the questions were asked was very offensive.  As a teen, I had no idea WHY we did it.  It's just something you do when you're raised Catholic.  It has no meaning to a child or teen.  And I'll bet it has no meaning to 90% of the congregation.  However, when people of other denominations make such a big deal, it feels like the people of the other denominations are zealots and extremists.  In the end, I'm trying to say that attacking Catholics (or people of other religions or denominations different from yours) is no way to recruit someone to your denomination or way of thinking.  People need to witness you living the life of Jesus.  And if your questions aren't being asked as an attempt to recruit someone to your denomination, then I recommend you seriously look inside yourself and ask yourself what your motivation is to attack someone and try to discredit their beliefs.  Think about it---Jesus would not argue merely for the sake of arguing.  Love is more persuasive than offending, attacking, insulting, or ridiculing another person. 

Hopes... I don't believe after posting on this site for the time I have been here, ANYONE who preaches against bowing to idols is worried one bit about denomination.

I can't tell you what denomination Charles is, and I bet he can't tell you what I am. I've known you online for more than 2 years, and I bet you can't tell me what denomination I am for sure. Other than "Non Catholic"...

It's about teaching what sin is.  The TRUTH of the word compared to man made attempts at the truth before a Holy God.  There is so much in the NAME of Religion that gets in the way of a relationship with the LIVING GOD that people need to be told.

The people here I have seen who sincerely speak to these issuses of Catholicism speak to the sin issues in any denom or religion.

They would tell Jew they need to know Jesus as LORD, and they would tell a "Pew sitter" to repent of their sins. They speak to sin they see in the body of Christ in all denominations. 

It's not about making Catholics any other denom. It's about truth.  I know Catholics who don't pray to Mary, they don't bow to statues, they are born again Christians trying to help their misguided religion see the truth.

So, based on that... I think your assumption is false. It's not about a denomination.

Quote from: Hopes-n-Dreams on Sun May 04, 2008 - 01:18:33
In the end, I'm trying to say that attacking Catholics (or people of other religions or denominations different from yours) is no way to recruit someone to your denomination or way of thinking.  People need to witness you living the life of Jesus.  And if your questions aren't being asked as an attempt to recruit someone to your denomination, then I recommend you seriously look inside yourself and ask yourself what your motivation is to attack someone and try to discredit their beliefs.  Think about it---Jesus would not argue merely for the sake of arguing.  Love is more persuasive than offending, attacking, insulting, or ridiculing another person. 

    My remarks and questions were directed to Stephanie, a defender of and debater within Roman Catholicism. As you should know, she and others on this Forum have been dialoguing this subject for weeks. We have taken her to task, she has taken us to task.

    Your remark about "attacking" others and their sects is not accurate, nor are you using the correct terminology to describe our dialogue.  I'm curious, however.  When you take issue with someone, regardless of the subject, are you "attacking" them?  Or are you simply stating the facts, as you understand them, in an effort to help them see reality more clearly?

    Furthermore, let it be said that Jesus confronted the sects and their leaders in His day.  Or, if you prefer, He "attacked" them.  So did the apostle Paul.

   I agree with you in reference to witnessing to and sharing with others in such a way they see Jesus in you.  Yet there are occasions when it is necessary to speak the truth boldly, but lovingly.  To hide our heads in the sand and do nothing to correct someone's faulty concept is equivalent to surrendering to Satan's wiles.  I cannot travel that route.  You may pick that route to travel, and you certainly have the freedom to do so, and I will respect your decision, but do not try to compel others to travel the same route. Blessings.

—Buff.

Quote from: jmg3rd on Sat May 03, 2008 - 17:34:57

QuoteExodus 32:

2 Aaron answered them, "Take off the gold earrings that your wives, your sons and your daughters are wearing, and bring them to me." 3 So all the people took off their earrings and brought them to Aaron. 4 He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, "These are your gods*,  O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt."

5 When Aaron saw this, he built an altar in front of the calf and announced, "Tomorrow there will be a festival to the LORD**." 6 So the next day the people rose early and sacrificed burnt offerings and presented fellowship offerings. [c] Afterward they sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.

* "gods" = Heb. "elohim" - plural of 433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative.

** "LORD" = Heb. "YHWH" (the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God.

It's interesting that Aaron and the other Israelites believed they were not worshiping an idol that represented another god, but created an idol to help them worship God.  The word they use is YHWH, Jehovah.  I wonder if this helps us to better understand God's intention in regard to the 2nd commandment?  They believed they were still feasting and worshiping Jehovah not another god.

(No, I'm not saying that it is necessarily parallel, neither am I saying it isn't.  I just think this may get to the heart of the 2nd commandment when you consider Moses' and God's reactions to the graven image used in worship of Jehovah.  Just something to chew on.)

Hmmm....

Quote from: kensington on Thu May 01, 2008 - 01:30:32
How can a verse that speaks specifically to "visual aids" .... or statues... be out of context?

That is so silly. 

It may seem that way at first, but you do the same thing.

Take the Sheep and Goats:

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."



If you only took this one story.  You can exegete it like this:  
1) Jesus himself is talking about the final judgment
2) The difference between the two is that the sheep gave food, water, clothes,visited the sick and imprisoned.  I think that it is fair to expand the list to good deeds in general.
3) Therefore, the criterion for judgment is the performance of good works.

But  you don't do that.  You take the rest of what scripture has to say and come to a different conclusion about salvation.  To take only this story and base your opinion about salvation on it would be to take these verses out of context of the NT, even though they speak specifically about the final judgment.

VICOR OF CHRIST - Is the name every Pope assumes when he is elected
Vicor means "Substitute"

The Vaticans colors are Scarlet and Purple
In the center of Vatican City is a Phalic Symbol
Catholics bow to Mary, HAIL TO MARY
And claim the right to offer Sainthood to any of their choosing.

We should see the Pope for what he is             The Anti Christ himself!

Anyone who claims to be a "Substitute for Christ"  should be a HUGE warning to the Body of Believers
The Pope is nothing more than a sinful man....just like you and I.
He has no more right to be praised, than a frog in a pond.

Quote from: Corbley on Tue Jul 01, 2008 - 11:50:16
VICOR OF CHRIST - Is the name every Pope assumes when he is elected
Vicor means "Substitute"

The Vaticans colors are Scarlet and Purple
In the center of Vatican City is a Phalic Symbol
Catholics bow to Mary, HAIL TO MARY
And claim the right to offer Sainthood to any of their choosing.

We should see the Pope for what he is             The Anti Christ himself!

Anyone who claims to be a "Substitute for Christ"  should be a HUGE warning to the Body of Believers
The Pope is nothing more than a sinful man....just like you and I.
He has no more right to be praised, than a frog in a pond.

Ah...someone finally speaks in the wasteland named the "Organized Religion" section.  Corbley, we have been down this road before.  You might want to take a look at this section and the topics within them.  You could say it resembles a war zone where nothing really got accomplished.  Not too many Catholics visit anymore, and I doubt they will return.  Even my own visits have been limited because I just got tired of the old same junk being recycled over and over again.

Your comments are what they are...more anti-Catholic rubbish.  Please, take the time to really know and understand what the Catholic faith really teaches.  If this is the best you have to offer, you have a long way to go.

Quote from: broach972 on Wed Jul 02, 2008 - 00:29:45

Quote from: Corbley on Tue Jul 01, 2008 - 11:50:16
VICOR OF CHRIST - Is the name every Pope assumes when he is elected
Vicor means "Substitute"

The Vaticans colors are Scarlet and Purple
In the center of Vatican City is a Phalic Symbol
Catholics bow to Mary, HAIL TO MARY
And claim the right to offer Sainthood to any of their choosing.

We should see the Pope for what he is             The Anti Christ himself!

Anyone who claims to be a "Substitute for Christ"  should be a HUGE warning to the Body of Believers
The Pope is nothing more than a sinful man....just like you and I.
He has no more right to be praised, than a frog in a pond.

Ah...someone finally speaks in the wasteland named the "Organized Religion" section.  Corbley, we have been down this road before.  You might want to take a look at this section and the topics within them.  You could say it resembles a war zone where nothing really got accomplished.  Not too many Catholics visit anymore, and I doubt they will return.  Even my own visits have been limited because I just got tired of the old same junk being recycled over and over again.

Your comments are what they are...more anti-Catholic rubbish.  Please, take the time to really know and understand what the Catholic faith really teaches.  If this is the best you have to offer, you have a long way to go.

Ah - but I do understand the Catholic RELIGION.....and it is just that (a religion) as opposed to a faith....Religion is a political word....
Show me one place in the Bible that tells us to HAIL MARY or any other person other than God.
Why is it that the Catholic church (The wealthiest entity on the planet) sits idol, when so many suffer....the Catholic church, allows child rapists to remain on the pulpit...Show me where any MAN has the right to be a Substitute for Christ on earth....
It is not I who needs to study...it is you my friend.
I was born in the Catholic faith and left when I studied the Truth in the word of God

The Pope is not the anti-Christ!

A Pope will be the "one world" religion leader who serves the anti-Christ.  Read the word...  TWO totally diffferent men. 

Quote from: Bonnie on Mon Apr 21, 2008 - 10:21:32
I don't know that I would use the word bothered but it's wrong to set a man up as god or to worship him.

?

And wrong things don't bother you??

Sounds like political correctness run amok in here.   

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Mon Apr 21, 2008 - 16:11:46


Why are disagreements on an open discussion board constantly being characterized as hate?

Wow, what a profound post. Yes, if their is normal, correct righteous dissent against some ill founded dark dogma such as Catholic belief, this is then some form of 'hate'. I love this new age culture, this culture that has has found itself;  [Tolerate Everything, Stand For Nothing.[/i]

Next, it will be being incarcerated for being anti-Gay practice, with reeducation and fines no less, in the name of some sort of New Age Gaia God........

Same as it ever was........(ala Talking Heads...)

Robert

Quote from: moelarry1 on Sun Apr 20, 2008 - 09:23:53
  ???Does it bother anyone that everytime the Pope visits a city or a country, he is woreshipped like a god or god himself?Would god approve of this behavior?

It bothers me in the sense he is just a man and deserves no worship and glory. But is comes as no surprise, this is ordained to happen. Prophecy says so.

Quote from: Foghorn Leghorn on Sun Nov 02, 2008 - 19:30:24

Quote from: moelarry1 on Sun Apr 20, 2008 - 09:23:53
  ???Does it bother anyone that everytime the Pope visits a city or a country, he is woreshipped like a god or god himself?Would god approve of this behavior?

It bothers me in the sense he is just a man and deserves no worship and glory. But is comes as no surprise, this is ordained to happen. Prophecy says so.

The Pope is not worshipped nor is he a deity.  He is just a man who is beloved and respected.  I think that the Pope himself would get a chuckle out of your observation.  Besides, I would love to meet him myself.  I bet he would be one interesting guy to talk to.

Quote from: broach972 on Mon Nov 03, 2008 - 13:25:16

Quote from: Foghorn Leghorn on Sun Nov 02, 2008 - 19:30:24

Quote from: moelarry1 on Sun Apr 20, 2008 - 09:23:53
  ???Does it bother anyone that everytime the Pope visits a city or a country, he is woreshipped like a god or god himself?Would god approve of this behavior?

It bothers me in the sense he is just a man and deserves no worship and glory. But is comes as no surprise, this is ordained to happen. Prophecy says so.

The Pope is not worshipped nor is he a deity.  He is just a man who is beloved and respected.  I think that the Pope himself would get a chuckle out of your observation.  Besides, I would love to meet him myself.  I bet he would be one interesting guy to talk to.

Why is he respected and beloved.....He is a sinful man just like you or I....He is no better than you or I...........He is lofted above other men and given a name that is blasphamy!  And he is exhulted above any man on earth...........I can speak to God myself, i do not need the Pope to do it for me...........

And one more thing...........The wealthiest entity on the planet is the Catholic Church............HOW DARE THEY EVEN UTTER A PRAYER FOR HUNGER OR WORLD PEACE, WHEN THEY HAVE ENOUGH MONEY TO BUY MOST EVERY NATION ON THE PLANET......(Do the math - Boston Arch. D - Has more than $40 billion in assets) Use that for an average, then multiply that # buy the # of large cities in the world and you will come up with the amount that is shown on their records, then multiply that # by 4 (because they do not claim everything!     Then multiple 1 million dollars by the # of Priests throughout the world and you will be within 100 billion +/- of what the Catholic Church is worth   (do not even get me started on Christian Chruches either  - Yes your little church is hording wealth too)

My dad's small community Church = $400K +
My church = $7 million +
My sisters church = $10 million + (they are saving to build a bigger church)
My moms church  about 4-5 million

So in my family alone - that is about 22 million in assets    to build new buildings and make sure that the Pastors have cadillacs and live in a huge home.
It sickens me to see that much greed in local churches....While the whole of the public suffers week to week....Just to get by!

Quote from: Corbley on Mon Nov 03, 2008 - 13:50:42
Why is he respected and beloved.....He is a sinful man just like you or I....He is no better than you or I...........He is lofted above other men and given a name that is blasphamy!  And he is exhulted above any man on earth...........I can speak to God myself, i do not need the Pope to do it for me...........

I doubt that Joseph would disagree with you on some of these points.

Quote from: Corbley on Mon Nov 03, 2008 - 13:50:42
And one more thing...........The wealthiest entity on the planet is the Catholic Church............HOW DARE THEY EVEN UTTER A PRAYER FOR HUNGER OR WORLD PEACE, WHEN THEY HAVE ENOUGH MONEY TO BUY MOST EVERY NATION ON THE PLANET......(Do the math - Boston Arch. D - Has more than $40 billion in assets) Use that for an average, then multiply that # buy the # of large cities in the world and you will come up with the amount that is shown on their records, then multiply that # by 4 (because they do not claim everything!     Then multiple 1 million dollars by the # of Priests throughout the world and you will be within 100 billion +/- of what the Catholic Church is worth   (do not even get me started on Christian Chruches either  - Yes your little church is hording wealth too)

My dad's small community Church = $400K +
My church = $7 million +
My sisters church = $10 million + (they are saving to build a bigger church)
My moms church  about 4-5 million

So in my family alone - that is about 22 million in assets    to build new buildings and make sure that the Pastors have cadillacs and live in a huge home.
It sickens me to see that much greed in local churches....While the whole of the public suffers week to week....Just to get by!

I agree with you.  The Catholic Church is not rich.  It is a BIG church with some assetts.  Naturally, it would have some.  The Catholic Church does much to help the poor in third world countries and at the local level.  My local church supports a local soup kitchen and homeless shelter.  I am going to tell you something that will probably shock you.  All of our tithe does not go to the "local" Church.  Only a small percentage.  Catholics are to give 6% to the charity of thier choice, 3% to the local parish, and 1% to the diocese.  Wow...I bet you did know that did you.  Please have some idea of what you are talking about before you dive into a subject.  Thanks.

Quote from: broach972 on Mon Nov 03, 2008 - 14:35:10The Catholic Church is not rich.

I've never seen any other church depositing their offerings in an armored car.