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It isn't about what someone says or how good they sound. This isn't really the point as some of you are saying. I do not want to dissect everything someone says or how correct they are. I dislike the arguments about correct doctrine. I believe if we are listening to God then He can use all things for the good, including evil. The thing is, that it is pride that leads to destruction.

Can anybody preach that Jesus is the way? Mormons do. Are they right? They have changed their message over the years to appeal more to the masses. But I also believe a person in a Mormon church, or any church, can belong to God because if they are seeking truth they will find it. It is an individual response to what you're hearing. Who is 100% correct? Some things preachers say are really evident and you know they are way off track but the ones who sound good and say the right things can fool people easier. It is about their fruit. All preachers do good works to look good but God sees motive. JM may have some good things to say but I see her arrogance. She wears it like a flag. God's Spirit should be warning you of falsehood. It still is about love and sacrifice and not the pride of how many people are following us. I could say everything that would please you and make you think I have all the answers. Reread about what Paul went through and see if JM is anything like that. She talks about her past but acts as if she has arrived. She still does preach prosperity stuff which is very demeaning to the poor who belong to God. I am sorry to say this but a good rule of thumb is if it's popular it probably isn't God. God's servants usually aren't super apostles.

Quote from: seekr on Tue May 13, 2008 - 13:43:15
... I dislike the arguments about correct doctrine. I believe if we are listening to God then He can use all things for the good, including evil. The thing is, that it is pride that leads to destruction.

Can anybody preach that Jesus is the way? Mormons do. Are they right? They have changed their message over the years to appeal more to the masses.

But I also believe a person in a Mormon church, or any church, can belong to God because if they are seeking truth they will find it. It is an individual response to what you're hearing. Who is 100% correct? ... JM may have some good things to say but I see her arrogance. ...I am sorry to say this but a good rule of thumb is if it's popular it probably isn't God. God's servants usually aren't super apostles.

dear sis. seeker,

I like your generous estimation of the scope of God's grace, extended to all sincere seekers.  I too tend to think it is not the name on the sign outside the building, but the name proclaimed inside the building.  God can certainly work with our inadequacies and incorrectness.  Truly, the heart of the problem is the heart sins of pride and arrogance.  And, your closing comment about popularity being an indicator, is pretty much right on, IMHO.

but, I would urge you to look more closely at Mormon doctrine.  They are little better than pagans with a Biblical shellac.  Check out some of Gerald and Sandra Tanner's writings.  She is the great-great-granddaughter of Brigham Young, the second president of the Mormon Church.  Maybe get a copy of "The Godmakers", or view the video by the same name.  Be gracious, but at the same time be wise.  John's comments in 2John are exclusionary and excommunicating.  Not all are as they proclaim.

Quotebut, I would urge you to look more closely at Mormon doctrine.  They are little better than pagans with a Biblical shellac.  Check out some of Gerald and Sandra Tanner's writings.  She is the great-great-granddaughter of Brigham Young, the second president of the Mormon Church.  Maybe get a copy of "The Godmakers", or view the video by the same name.  Be gracious, but at the same time be wise.  John's comments in 2John are exclusionary and excommunicating.  Not all are as they proclaim.

I am an ex-Mormon so I do know those books and what you are talking about. I dislike Mormonism and the falsehood of it but my point is, God can reach anybody anywhere at anytime no matter where we're at. We all are sheep who tend to follow wrong things even when God is in charge. It is our nature to do that. I see this in the christian churches too. We can get caught up in things, thinking we are doing what God wants. We all tend to, instead of realizing it is God who has called us, make it about whatever person or denomination or cult, is teaching us. Does this make sense to you? I know in my life I have followed blindly, teachers/preachers who I thought had the answers and thought I was in the place God wanted me in only to realize He used it mightily to show me His truth as opposed to theirs. If we truly have a relationship with God the test is how much we love Him and others. And I mean actively with the right motives.

Someone said earlier in this thread that God used a donkey (although i would prefer to use the other word for donkey) to speak to Balaam. I also have said this before. God says that He grows us. He says He will teach us. I don't care what people think about my walk because I have found this to be true. He lives in me and I sit at His feet.

QuoteWhat is most troubling to me, aside from the false humility that I see on this thread that is only meant to belittle me and down play the importance of defending the true Gospel, is that people are so quick to wink at error, even Joyce's distorting of the most basic and simple truths of the Gospel, and defend Joyce as if that error is not worth confronting because it may offend some.

Dave, I wouldn't take it too personal. Maybe they really believed she was one of the good ones.
As I said from the start, I just don't put confidence in any of them anymore.  Even the Bible teaches us not to put confidence in Man. We owe it all to Him.

I just enjoy what preaching I can and it must come from the Word or I'm instantly turned off. 

God Bless

good morning.
rope sheaves and felt stretches today, once we get past a roll coupling.

Sis. Seekr,

I think I hear you correctly, and appreciate your emphasis on God, not us.

God can reach anybody anywhere at anytime no matter where we're at. We all are sheep who tend to follow wrong things even when God is in charge.

Truly, He is at work, even in our backwater and wrong turn times.  I do believe that some places are darker than others; but God is everywhere.  I do not worry too much where my children choose to assemble with other believers, but, I would warn them away from certain dark corners.  But, I rest better knowing that God is in control!

God is bigger than any one group or point of view.  Yes, there is heresy and immorality, from which to be snatched and/or fled.  But, God was with Samson, a blind and forgotten fool.  I'd rather glorify God as an Elijah, though.  But, let's remember Joseph in prison down in Egypt.  I love his comment to his brothers, "You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives." (Genesis 50:20)  God reigns even in our foolishness and wickedness!

Well, put me down as one who occassionally listens to Joyce.  I have heard heard preach/teach/etc some excellent lessons.  She teachs Jesus Christ as the only way (from what I have heard her teach).  No one is totally correct,, the CoC, the Baptists, the Catholics, etc and especially the Greek to English translators who have, IMO, caused much of the confussion among Christians of different denominations and sects because of biased translation so I'm not going to throw stones.  I printed off the article to read later but from 1st glance, it seems to be much the same as to what the  Spiritual Sword and Contending for the Faith articles have been as far as labeling people who don't agree with their views.

That's what I got from it as well Wiley.

I have heard her preach/teach alot, and do like what I have heard from her so far too.

Oh well, we all can't be perfect...............yet.

Quote from: Dave... on Tue May 13, 2008 - 00:10:18
Jesus was nailed to the cross for professing that He was God. He and the Father are One.

Which do you believe--- Joyce's Gospel, or the Gospel of the Bible?

Time to step out of your lukewarmness and make a stand. You can't believe both.

"'Who do people say that the Son of Man is?'

They say that you were only a man.

"Who do you say that I Am?"

This post is as bogus as your accusations. 

I told you JM preaches Jesus Christ and Him crucified, and you accuse me of being "lukewarm" and foresaking my savior?

If you prove she teaches "another gospel" I will rethink my position, but you have not done so.  All you have done is make false accusations at people who disagree with what is only an opinion professed by you.

In Christ,
KP

Quote from: bekahdoo on Tue May 13, 2008 - 07:18:59

Quote from: Hehealedme on Tue May 13, 2008 - 02:04:12
I am another one that likes listening to Joyce M...I don't know if her teaching is 100% biblical all of the time but she does make a lot of sense when she speaks...I have learned a lot through what she says, especially on my own self-esteem and how to treat others...

I have to agree. She has helped me through some really tough times, and I have never seen where her words contradict what the Bible says.

I can tell you this, her conferences and appearances are free of charge. Unlike say, Joel Osteen, that charges a fortune for admission and then asks for money twice during his "show". And never once does he mention that Jesus Christ is the way to salvation!

This is not 100% true..   Joel spoke on our military base last year and it was free, and he did not take up an offering at all, but gave out a praise CD and a copy of his book to every couple or person attending. 

And recently when he came to our city, the tickets were 16.00.  I am not sure that is a fortune for admission.  I like Joel.  His gift is Encouragement. He is not an evangelist.  He tries to lift up the already saved, and he does give a salvation message every week in his sermon at Lakewood.  I've watched him often... "We never like to close the program without giving you a chance to receive Jesus as Lord in your life, if you would like to, please pray this prayer with me"... and he prays for salvation and forgiveness of sins.

But, his tour... or speaking engagements are not church services... and not advertised as such either.

I think we have to take each member of the body as we would want to be taken. With grace and longsuffering.  Even those who don't preach perfect.  As I recall, ONLY Jesus did that.

.

Quote from: Hehealedme on Fri May 16, 2008 - 03:48:32

QuoteI like Joel.  His gift is Encouragement.

Joel Osteen's gift may be encouragement, which is surely a good thing but it isn't enough for someone that wants to get into the heart of the Truth...I haven't listened to many of Joel Osteen's sermons, maybe just a few of them...I do not want to judge him as I do not know him that well...but there are these two mp3s that I know of, for example, that come from WOTM Radio where Joel Osteen and Paul Washer are being compared for what they are both saying...and Paul Washer is without a doubt the one that speaks better about some of the most vital parts of the Truth...

If I had the chance to go to a conference, I would much rather pay to hear one of Paul Washer's conferences than go hear one from Joel Osteen's for free...

Just listen to these two mp3s, they will give you an idea of what I am refering to...

http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?sourceonly=true&currSection=sermonssource&keyword=gcc&subsetcat=series&subsetitem=WOTM+Radio+Clips

I think I've heard all of Paul Washer's available videos.  I love his preaching.

If Meyer is teaching that Satan triumphed over Jesus on the cross, or that Jesus died spiritually, or that our redemption actually took place in hell then she is teaching error. 

It's not the "another gospel" that Paul speaks of in Galatians, but it is error.

Quote from: OldDad on Fri May 16, 2008 - 08:42:55
If Meyer is teaching that Satan triumphed over Jesus on the cross, or that Jesus died spiritually, or that our redemption actually took place in hell then she is teaching error. 

It's not the "another gospel" that Paul speaks of in Galatians, but it is error.

Is that what she preaches?  WOW

Quote from: OldDad on Fri May 16, 2008 - 08:42:55
If Meyer is teaching that Satan triumphed over Jesus on the cross, or that Jesus died spiritually, or that our redemption actually took place in hell then she is teaching error. 

It's not the "another gospel" that Paul speaks of in Galatians, but it is error.

Sounds like another gospel to me.
Who knows if she preaches this or not?

I have never ever heard her say that!

The link in the OP refers to such teaching in one of her books from the mid 90's.

.

He does not quote anything from JM's book that says that.

He quotes Rev Moon, Kenneth Copeland and others to prove his point that JM is preaching another gospel.  Very misleading if you ask me.

In Christ,
KP

QuoteAnd recently when he came to our city, the tickets were 16.00.  I am not sure that is a fortune for admission.  I like Joel.  His gift is Encouragement. He is not an evangelist.  He tries to lift up the already saved, and he does give a salvation message every week in his sermon at Lakewood.

IMO, when preaching in the organized Sunday morning worship, this is EXACTLY what should be preached.  The unsaved (except in very very small numbers) are not in the organized worship.  They are out on the street going about life without Jesus and the real message of salvation needs to be out there.  The message inside the church should be directed towards those who are saved and needing the encouragment to keep walking in the steps of Jesus.  Over the years, true evangelistic outreach of the church has been replaced by pulpit evangelizing of the already saved.  Why preach salvation to the already saved?

I may not agree with Olsteen's views in areas of theology, but I think he is right on in his direction.  The saved need all the encouragement they can get to keep moving forward--and that's all of us who are saved!

Quote from: WileyClarkson on Fri May 16, 2008 - 18:42:09

QuoteAnd recently when he came to our city, the tickets were 16.00.  I am not sure that is a fortune for admission.  I like Joel.  His gift is Encouragement. He is not an evangelist.  He tries to lift up the already saved, and he does give a salvation message every week in his sermon at Lakewood.

IMO, when preaching in the organized Sunday morning worship, this is EXACTLY what should be preached.  The unsaved (except in very very small numbers) are not in the organized worship.  They are out on the street going about life without Jesus and the real message of salvation needs to be out there.  The message inside the church should be directed towards those who are saved and needing the encouragment to keep walking in the steps of Jesus.  Over the years, true evangelistic outreach of the church has been replaced by pulpit evangelizing of the already saved.  Why preach salvation to the already saved?

I may not agree with Olsteen's views in areas of theology, but I think he is right on in his direction.  The saved need all the encouragement they can get to keep moving forward--and that's all of us who are saved!

Quote from: WileyClarkson on Fri May 16, 2008 - 18:42:09

QuoteAnd recently when he came to our city, the tickets were 16.00.  I am not sure that is a fortune for admission.  I like Joel.  His gift is Encouragement. He is not an evangelist.  He tries to lift up the already saved, and he does give a salvation message every week in his sermon at Lakewood.

IMO, when preaching in the organized Sunday morning worship, this is EXACTLY what should be preached.  The unsaved (except in very very small numbers) are not in the organized worship.  They are out on the street going about life without Jesus and the real message of salvation needs to be out there.  The message inside the church should be directed towards those who are saved and needing the encouragment to keep walking in the steps of Jesus.  Over the years, true evangelistic outreach of the church has been replaced by pulpit evangelizing of the already saved.  Why preach salvation to the already saved?

I may not agree with Olsteen's views in areas of theology, but I think he is right on in his direction.  The saved need all the encouragement they can get to keep moving forward--and that's all of us who are saved!

You  Brother Wiley!!!   

Quote from: WileyClarkson on Fri May 16, 2008 - 18:42:09
The unsaved (except in very very small numbers) are not in the organized worship.  They are out on the street going about life without Jesus and the real message of salvation needs to be out there.  The message inside the church should be directed towards those who are saved and needing the encouragment to keep walking in the steps of Jesus.  Over the years, true evangelistic outreach of the church has been replaced by pulpit evangelizing of the already saved.  Why preach salvation to the already saved?

Ideally, I would agree with you.  But this is not an ideal world.

My congregation gets lots of folks through the door who are not already saved.  So the preaching is done to the already saved, but it is spoken plainly.  And before the service ends, an invitation is given.  You can do both.

And I also disagree about the "very, very small numbers" in light of Matthew 7.

Gary,

I think we have to weigh our productivity against our needs.  That is something that I just don't see done in the CoC. There are way too many sermons to the saved on how to be saved!  The saved make up the overwhelming majority of any congregation and the unsaved make up the overwhelming majority of those outside of the door.  The mission field starts when one leaves the building and is not in the building!  Pulpit evangelism of the unsaved in a overwhelming crowd of the saved is really not a productive of the time of the pulpit minister.  He needs to be concentrating on those who are saved already and teaching/preaching messages that help them grow spiritually.  I'm not saying disregard any salvation message altogether in the morning/evening sermon but make the vast majority of the time of that sermon applicable to those who are saved.  They need the encouragement, the uplifting, the deeper study, and the real meat of the Word.  If the minister just does nothing but preach simplistic sermons designed to reach those who are unsaved (and many do!), those saved in the congregation are going to founder from too much milk and grain and not enough meat.

Our congregation has members and a full time minister who do outreach ministery/evangelism and specialize in salvation based personal studies in the homes.  It does produce a whole lot more than preaching to the very small minority in our morning worship who are not saved and are needing uplifting and growth oriented sermons.  I suspect if a pole was taken of any church service on a Sunday morning in the RM churches, the percentages of saved to unsaved in our services would surprise everyone, and my guess is that 99% of the unsaved would be our own children who we should be teaching in our homes.

BTW, we get alot of visitors but they are usually saved already.  Very few of our visitors are unsaved people who just decide to walk through the door on a Sunday morning because they have nothing better to do.

QuoteThe mission field starts when one leaves the building and is not in the building!

That is a fo' sho' Wiley. 

False Teacher or not, I get the feeling that ol' JM is all about the benjamins!

Quote from: Gary on Sat Feb 28, 2009 - 09:41:14
False Teacher or not, I get the feeling that ol' JM is all about the benjamins!

Joyce is one of the very very few American preachers who we will listen to. What she says about what God has done in her life, her honesty and practical and down to earth teaching is s refreshing change from most of them.
She is the ONLY person we watch on godtv.

I have not gone to the link. I take it this is about the "Firstborn from the dead" theory that came out in WOF?

It would not surprise me if Joyce aluded to that, I would expect it from her background. Here's another one she aludes to that makes my skin crawl, "Man is a spirit, has a soul, and has a body."

Sometimes you have to learn, in their own words, to spit out the bones.

I wouldn't pay any attention to it, although I will be asking Philip Powell to explain himself concerning water baptism.

Read what I wrote on the first page of this thread.

For me being a woman Joyce Meyers is a good motivational speaker from God no matter what people mat view of her. She teaches a Womans Ministry & if men decide to show up at her conferences/meetings it is their choice, not hers, she is just the teacher.I would rather listen to her sermons  v.s. Joel Osteen or Creftlo Dollar or Kenith Copeland.Above all I listen to my pastor as long as he goes with Gods word ,but as noted Joyce is a good womens ministry minister.

Quote from: WomanDiscipleKJV on Mon Mar 02, 2009 - 08:15:27
For me being a woman Joyce Meyers is a good motivational speaker from God no matter what people mat view of her. She teaches a Womans Ministry & if men decide to show up at her conferences/meetings it is their choice, not hers, she is just the teacher.I would rather listen to her sermons  v.s. Joel Osteen or Creftlo Dollar or Kenith Copeland.Above all I listen to my pastor as long as he goes with Gods word ,but as noted Joyce is a good womens ministry minister.

Joyce Meyers does not proclaim that her ministry is an only womens ministry.  That is false.  Just as she is a false teacher.

I have watched her on TV, and I have listened to what she says.  She claims that she can be a minister because in Christ there is neither male nor female.<Quote>

Little does she realize , that the body of Christ is not where ministers come from.  They come from the building , not the body.

We don't get many old-school feminists wanting to argue their point of view around here. Cool.