Christian Forums

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 13:14:57

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 13:07:08

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 13:04:52No one enters into a divorce lightly or tries to "get out of it" by "playing that card".

Maybe not before 1950.

That's tacky!  Maybe I'm sheltered then.  I've never known anyone who was divorced b/c it suited their fancy at the time or it was done with no sense of sorrow or done with disdane.  Sheesh!

I don't know if you are sheltered or not, but claiming no one take divorce lightly is a unrealistic statement.

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 13:04:52

Quote from: Gary on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 12:09:01

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 12:01:06

Quote from: Gary on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 11:11:09
It looks like some are looking to justify an already made decision.

Anyway, if lusting=adultery and that is grounds for divorce, almost every woman, and a good number of men have grounds for divorce whenever they want to play that card.

Yep I guess so then 

Shame on you for making light of it.  I pray you're never affected by it.

I am not making light of anything.  I am stone cold serious.  I don't think Jesus is opening up the floodgates for divorce here, nor am I saying it is ok to lust.

IMO Saying someone can "play that card" is making light of it.  No one enters into a divorce lightly or tries to "get out of it" by "playing that card".  "That card" is something that is very hurtful and hard to get past and forgive.  Why do you think God allows it as a reason for divorce.  Jesus didn't "open the floodgates"...MAN did.  Jesus just gave us the okay for divorcing someone who does that.  However, Jesus also asks us to forgive if someone asks forgiveness.

Since I said I was not making light of it, you can either accept that I am being sincere in that I am being serious.  Or you can call me a liar.  And I don't believe that Jesus gave us the okay to divorce someone who lusts in their hearts, or like I said before, nearly every woman, and most men would have grounds for scriptural divorce.

Matthew 5:28  But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

So then I take it you don't consider adultery biblical grounds for divorce? 

Yet God does
Jer 3:8   I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries.

Hmmm....

Cherry picking verses I see.

According to Matthew 5:32 Jesus states fornication is grounds for divorce, not adultery.

"The Greek word for 'fornication' (porneia) could include any sexual sin committed after the betrothal contract. ...In Biblical usage, 'fornication' can mean any sexual congress outside monogamous marriage. It thus includes not only premarital sex, but also adultery, homosexual acts, incest, remarriage after un-Biblical divorce, and sexual acts with animals, all of which are explicitly forbidden in the law as given through Moses (Leviticus 20:10-21). Christ expanded the prohibition against adultery to include even sexual lusting (Matthew 5:28)." (Dr. Henry M. Morris)

Fornication=Adultery   

So again...are you saying you DON'T agree with that???

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 13:52:45
"The Greek word for 'fornication' (porneia) could include any sexual sin committed after the betrothal contract. ...In Biblical usage, 'fornication' can mean any sexual congress outside monogamous marriage. It thus includes not only premarital sex, but also adultery, homosexual acts, incest, remarriage after un-Biblical divorce, and sexual acts with animals, all of which are explicitly forbidden in the law as given through Moses (Leviticus 20:10-21). Christ expanded the prohibition against adultery to include even sexual lusting (Matthew 5:28)." (Dr. Henry M. Morris)

Fornication=Adultery  

So again...are you saying you DON'T agree with that???

I agree with the Bible, just not Henry Morris.  And even from your above posting Fornication does not equal Adultery.

I love how it's like pulling teeth with those who know their views are skewed.  Please take the pulpit  and elaborate for us all with the wee little minds who seem so far off track to think that God does not like adultery.  I wait in agony  !

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 13:52:45
"The Greek word for 'fornication' (porneia) could include any sexual sin committed after the betrothal contract. ...In Biblical usage, 'fornication' can mean any sexual congress outside monogamous marriage. It thus includes not only premarital sex, but also adultery, homosexual acts, incest, remarriage after un-Biblical divorce, and sexual acts with animals, all of which are explicitly forbidden in the law as given through Moses (Leviticus 20:10-21). Christ expanded the prohibition against adultery to include even sexual lusting (Matthew 5:28)." (Dr. Henry M. Morris)

Fornication=Adultery   ::doh::

So again...are you saying you DON'T agree with that??? ???

No I don't.

I don't believe that Jesus was saying if you look upon someone to lust after them that divorce is permissible. The word for fornication is used to describe an act of sexual intercourse, not just adulterous thoughts.

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/image.cfm?img=18AED1F6994D7FFC1CF1340F25C3B0706

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 13:59:54
I love how it's like pulling teeth with those who know their views are skewed.  Please take the pulpit  and elaborate for us all with the wee little minds who seem so far off track to think that God does not like adultery.  I wait in agony  !

You are playing the "So you are saying" game.  If I don't agree with you, you assume that I advocate the direct opposite and mock me.

Typical response...ever considered politics!??


Ah...I just looked at your profile.  Says your 28.  Enough said! 

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 08:50:41

Quote from: HRoberson on Tue Sep 23, 2008 - 22:51:25
My dear friend, again, Jesus is moving us to a higher level of living. He is not primarily re-defining a term but making us look at our hearts. Jesus did not merge the two concepts, He simply called His followers to a higher standard of behavior.

They are not the same, any more than hate and murder are. Or do you think that if I hate someone, I might just as well go ahead and shoot them?

I think not.

I agree he has called "his followers" to higher standards of living...however my H is not one. 

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.  In this verse it says that whosoever looketh on a a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.  I emphasize those points b/c I agree with you they are two different things...lusting and adultery in a technical sense...however this verse clarifies that is has the same effect as the actual deed.  It clarifies that if you are looking at a woman with a lustful desire it is the same impact as physically having sex with her.  Those same thoughts as if you were having sex with her are going through your mind at the same time you are "lusting" after her.  Have you ever heard the term "emotional affair".  No, the spouse didn't physically "sleep" with the other partner, but they did things, said things, shared things, thought things they would never want their spouse to know about.  I've always gone by the general rule to not do or act anyway around another man that I wouldn't feel comfortable doing the same thing in front of my H.  THAT, to me, is how you know if it's wrong or not.  You can't tell me that a man looking at pictures of naked women (and I'm not talking about in an art gallery or something) is not exactly the type of thing that God was talking about in that verse.  If that's your belief then I pray God brings you clarity.

It might surprise you to know that my day job is as a marriage therapist and so yes, I have heard the term "emotional affair." While it is an appropriate term for certain situations, it does not equate to adultery.

It may also surprise you that looking at pornography does not necessarily result in imaging adulterous behavior any more than hating someone necessarily results in murder.

The result in the heart is not caused by pornography or adultery. It is, quite frankly, the other way around. We are not guilty because we have done something (actual or imagined), we are guilty because of the kinds of people we are. That guilt however, deals with our relationship with God, not with one another.

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 13:59:54
I love how it's like pulling teeth with those who know their views are skewed.  Please take the pulpit  and elaborate for us all with the wee little minds who seem so far off track to think that God does not like adultery.  I wait in agony  !

I don't recall anyone suggesting that God likes adultery, I think that would be a straw man. I believe the contention comes from your idea that looking at porn is the same as fornication. I believe that view what would be skewed considering passages like 1Cr 6:13-18.

"What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh."

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 12:38:53
I was a Christian and he was a "professed" Catholic when we married.  I say "professed" because he never did or has really followed that faith or practiced it outside the ocassional Sunday mass.

Sadly, this is not the first time I have heard this happening. It is more common than you think. I will not elaborate past that.

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 12:38:53
I italicized that b/c that is what applies in my circumstances.  I am the believer and although I sanctified my H through my beliefs, he left me (even though I was the one to move out) and therefor am not bound to him.
We are currently separated.  I am living with my two children DD3, DS1 at my parent's house which is about 10 minutes away.  It was either that or "I had to make another $650/month so he could move out into his own apartment"...that's why I say he left even though I physically left.  That was my choice...which really wasn't an option and he knew that.  I pray for him constantly that he will be open to God to receive him in the way God meant for it to be...not just as a "religion" but as a personal "relationship" with God and to live by the Bible's guidance.  His talk is that he wants that and is doing that...his actions and "fruits" speak differently.  AKA his looking at porn and other stuff I haven't even gotten into on here.

Maybe I didn't understand you. From your post it seems he hasn't left. You did. Would he have left and it cost you the 650.00 a month? It does seem that you have given up on him though. And maybe rightfully so. I have no idea what you have been through but it still seems that you left the marriage, not him. Why not let HIM leave...Was he telling you he would not support you during a separation? If so, there are legal ways to fix that. Who's decision was it to separate?

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 12:38:53
Not that it is my "reason" for divorce, but why not...the Bible even says as you quoted above that I am not bound to him if he left. 

Again, he has not left. Who wants this? You or him? Separation is one thing...Divorce is on whole another plateau. I understand how you feel...I REALLY do. But divorce should be the very LAST thing you do. If he proves to be a statistic and does not change with good, Godly help, ok.

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 12:38:53
I pray for him constantly that he will be open to God to receive him in the way God meant for it to be...not just as a "religion" but as a personal "relationship" with God and to live by the Bible's guidance.  His talk is that he wants that and is doing that...his actions and "fruits" speak differently.  AKA his looking at porn and other stuff I haven't even gotten into on here.

Keep praying. As far as the fruits, I have to agree with you there. The fruits speak for themselves...As the bible tells us, Good trees will not grow bad fruit and bad trees can't grow good fruit.

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 12:38:53
I find that hard to believe giving the information I have given, unless of course you don't believe me.  I don't think that's the case, I just think you hope for things to be different and work out.  If you do your research on Abusers you will see it is nearly impossible for them to change.  In fact the proven odds are about 95% of them do not.  I noticed in one of your post that you have children, remember this...Their lives will be impacted greatly by a divorce.

I have no reason to not believe you and I do not hope for anything. I pray that the Lord's will is done here. That is all I am saying. And contrary to others, I do not believe that His will is divorce...Even when you have a reason (adultery), you should try to find a way to reconcile...God can heal these things. I guess I am saying, Don't close the book on the marriage just yet. I understand about the abuse...More than you know...But God can heal that too...It may take some time...What is your commitment to waiting?

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 12:38:53
Thanks for the guilt trip.  No offense, but this is why abused women don't turn to their churches, b/c of comments like this.  Do you honestly think I haven't thought about how my children would be impacted by this.  I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place.  OK...stay with a H who is verbally abusive towards me...teach my D that it's okay for a man to treat her that way.  Teach my son it's okay for him to treat a woman that way.  Do you really think they'll listen when I turn right around after an incident and say 'Don't you do that...Daddy was wrong...it's wrong to behave that way".  They'll grow up resenting me for being a pushover and hating him for how he treats me.  Oh and as they grow up and become more independent, then his abuse will turn towards them.  Making them feel worthless, and insufficient.  So, do I stay and try to take the brunt of it myself and try to shield them from this as much as possible?? Or, do I leave...take a stand for myself and for them.  Show them a good role model and how to handle and defend themselves from these kinds of attacks.  Give them a safe haven that they can return to if they feel "attacked" some day by their own father?? You tell me.  Of course, they (AND ME) will be hurt by a divorce.  I am not the one CAUSING THE SIN which is resulting in the divorce.   So, as Cristalsmama has mentioned before...you see why comments like this make us feel cornered and "uppity" about it.  You have NO idea how turmoiled we are about it.  There is no good decision here...only a right one.

Please...What I posted was not a guilt trip. It is 100% truth....What do you expect a church to say? They are hoping that the Lord will heal the marriage..Sorry that the church doesn't just say, "Yep, I think you should divorce him". That is not the way to deal with it. Biblically speaking, there are steps to take. Get counseling. If it is still bad, try a separation and counseling. Then last case scenario, divorce...I am in no way advocating you stay and be abused. Nor am I saying your kids need to see that either. I NEVER POSTED THAT. This goes back to my saying you have your mind made up. You are so angry that I do not agree with the divorce issue that you are now saying things I never posted. I POSTED FOR YOU TO SEPARATE.  And for the record, I DO know how turmoiled you are. You do not know what you are talking about. I lived in it for most of my life. I am not saying this is your deal but I have seen many people say, "I am being abused". Only to find out that they are equally abusing each other. Ones actions are causing a reaction from the other. And they are bound and determined to have the last word. And they feed off of each other..Both of them. Is this your situation? Have you tried to be non-confrontational with him? You seem very combative in your post...

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 12:38:53
I don't remember posting that...if you could show me where or more of what I said, I could elaborate for you.[/b]

You posted this;
"I believe I have made up my mind about our marriage and my position is that I no longer have the yearning to fight for something I see no hope in.  I believe God is leading me to restore myself and protect myself as his temple and my children from any further damage.  I will leave it in God's hands and continue to pray for my H.  I pray God will reach him and extend an everlasting change in his heart and soul and he will become the man I believe God wanted for me.  However, I can't make that happen...only he can.  He has to be willing to receive God's voice.  If that should happen and God has kept me "available" for him then so be it.  Otherwise, I feel I'm justified in legally ending a marriage that has been spiritually ended by fault of my H time and time again.  At times, I still question my decision though and come here for any support on something I might wish to gleen more knowledge on which is what prompted this post to begin with."

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 12:38:53
My H knows this would hurt and offend me as well.  What's so mind boggling about it that he has been cheated on in the past and knows the pain and has always claimed to be faithful to me b/c he knows first hand how hurtful that is, and has always expressed great disgust for porn etc too. 

I am very sorry to hear that. Pornography is an addiction that is tough to break. It is bondage...His claim of faithfulness is for naught if he is addicted to porn...He is lusting after another woman...

I hate that he did that to you.

Quote from: Mac on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 15:28:18

Maybe I didn't understand you. From your post it seems he hasn't left. You did. Would he have left and it cost you the 650.00 a month? It does seem that you have given up on him though. And maybe rightfully so. I have no idea what you have been through but it still seems that you left the marriage, not him. Why not let HIM leave...Was he telling you he would not support you during a separation? If so, there are legal ways to fix that. Who's decision was it to separate?

He told me he was leaving and that I had to come up with an additional $650 a month for him to afford an apartment he could move in to.  My reaction    I said no, we can't afford that...if you don't want to be together then I will leave and go to my parents house (they live 10 minutes away) where we will not incur any other bills that we can't afford.  This is why I say HE left me even though I physically left our home.  He does not have any family or friends that live close by where he could go so that is why HE could not leave without it costing us things we can't afford.

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 12:38:53
Not that it is my "reason" for divorce, but why not...the Bible even says as you quoted above that I am not bound to him if he left. 

Again, he has not left. Who wants this? You or him? Separation is one thing...Divorce is on whole another plateau. I understand how you feel...I REALLY do. But divorce should be the very LAST thing you do. If he proves to be a statistic and does not change with good, Godly help, ok.

At first, he wanted it and I didn't.  Now, I want the separation and he doesn't.  He's trying to hoover (suck) his way back into my life to start this all over again...as he's done before.

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 12:38:53
I pray for him constantly that he will be open to God to receive him in the way God meant for it to be...not just as a "religion" but as a personal "relationship" with God and to live by the Bible's guidance.  His talk is that he wants that and is doing that...his actions and "fruits" speak differently.  AKA his looking at porn and other stuff I haven't even gotten into on here.

Keep praying. As far as the fruits, I have to agree with you there. The fruits speak for themselves...As the bible tells us, Good trees will not grow bad fruit and bad trees can't grow good fruit.

Maybe he's a bad tree and can't produce good fruit.  I certainly hope that's not true though 

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 12:38:53
I find that hard to believe giving the information I have given, unless of course you don't believe me.  I don't think that's the case, I just think you hope for things to be different and work out.  If you do your research on Abusers you will see it is nearly impossible for them to change.  In fact the proven odds are about 95% of them do not.  I noticed in one of your post that you have children, remember this...Their lives will be impacted greatly by a divorce.

I have no reason to not believe you and I do not hope for anything. I pray that the Lord's will is done here. That is all I am saying. And contrary to others, I do not believe that His will is divorce...Even when you have a reason (adultery), you should try to find a way to reconcile...God can heal these things. I guess I am saying, Don't close the book on the marriage just yet. I understand about the abuse...More than you know...But God can heal that too...It may take some time...What is your commitment to waiting?

My commitment to waiting at this point is the 6 months my state legally requires us to be separated.  If I start to see true changes and stop seeing his lies come to the surface, then maybe I'd wait longer.  It's really in God's hands.

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 12:38:53
Thanks for the guilt trip.  No offense, but this is why abused women don't turn to their churches, b/c of comments like this.  Do you honestly think I haven't thought about how my children would be impacted by this.  I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place.  OK...stay with a H who is verbally abusive towards me...teach my D that it's okay for a man to treat her that way.  Teach my son it's okay for him to treat a woman that way.  Do you really think they'll listen when I turn right around after an incident and say 'Don't you do that...Daddy was wrong...it's wrong to behave that way".  They'll grow up resenting me for being a pushover and hating him for how he treats me.  Oh and as they grow up and become more independent, then his abuse will turn towards them.  Making them feel worthless, and insufficient.  So, do I stay and try to take the brunt of it myself and try to shield them from this as much as possible?? Or, do I leave...take a stand for myself and for them.  Show them a good role model and how to handle and defend themselves from these kinds of attacks.  Give them a safe haven that they can return to if they feel "attacked" some day by their own father?? You tell me.  Of course, they (AND ME) will be hurt by a divorce.  I am not the one CAUSING THE SIN which is resulting in the divorce.   So, as Cristalsmama has mentioned before...you see why comments like this make us feel cornered and "uppity" about it.  You have NO idea how turmoiled we are about it.  There is no good decision here...only a right one.

Please...What I posted was not a guilt trip. It is 100% truth....What do you expect a church to say? They are hoping that the Lord will heal the marriage..Sorry that the church doesn't just say, "Yep, I think you should divorce him". That is not the way to deal with it. Biblically speaking, there are steps to take. Get counseling. If it is still bad, try a separation and counseling. Then last case scenario, divorce...I am in no way advocating you stay and be abused. Nor am I saying your kids need to see that either. I NEVER POSTED THAT. This goes back to my saying you have your mind made up. You are so angry that I do not agree with the divorce issue that you are now saying things I never posted. I POSTED FOR YOU TO SEPARATE.  And for the record, I DO know how turmoiled you are. You do not know what you are talking about. I lived in it for most of my life. I am not saying this is your deal but I have seen many people say, "I am being abused". Only to find out that they are equally abusing each other. Ones actions are causing a reaction from the other. And they are bound and determined to have the last word.

I'm sure it was not your intention to lay a guilt trip on me.  If you say you've lived in it for most of your life, I am astonished you are less empathetic.  A lot of times, "getting the last word in" comes when the abused victim has realized they've been abused and starts standing up for themselves..often causing things to escalate and sometimes unfortunately this can even escalate to physical abuse.

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 12:38:53
I don't remember posting that...if you could show me where or more of what I said, I could elaborate for you.[/b]

You posted this;
"I believe I have made up my mind about our marriage and my position is that I no longer have the yearning to fight for something I see no hope in.  I believe God is leading me to restore myself and protect myself as his temple and my children from any further damage.  I will leave it in God's hands and continue to pray for my H.  I pray God will reach him and extend an everlasting change in his heart and soul and he will become the man I believe God wanted for me.  However, I can't make that happen...only he can.  He has to be willing to receive God's voice.  If that should happen and God has kept me "available" for him then so be it.  Otherwise, I feel I'm justified in legally ending a marriage that has been spiritually ended by fault of my H time and time again.  At times, I still question my decision though and come here for any support on something I might wish to gleen more knowledge on which is what prompted this post to begin with."

Agh..so you pm'd me.  Yes I meant available as in God has not provided me with someone else that he sees fit as my mate.  Not that I'm "looking", but I don't know God's plan for me.

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 12:38:53
My H knows this would hurt and offend me as well.  What's so mind boggling about it that he has been cheated on in the past and knows the pain and has always claimed to be faithful to me b/c he knows first hand how hurtful that is, and has always expressed great disgust for porn etc too. 

I am very sorry to hear that. Pornography is an addiction that is tough to break. It is bondage...His claim of faithfulness is for naught if he is addicted to porn...He is lusting after another woman...

I hate that he did that to you.

Thanks

Quote from: HRoberson on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 14:04:29

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 08:50:41

Quote from: HRoberson on Tue Sep 23, 2008 - 22:51:25
My dear friend, again, Jesus is moving us to a higher level of living. He is not primarily re-defining a term but making us look at our hearts. Jesus did not merge the two concepts, He simply called His followers to a higher standard of behavior.

They are not the same, any more than hate and murder are. Or do you think that if I hate someone, I might just as well go ahead and shoot them?

I think not.

I agree he has called "his followers" to higher standards of living...however my H is not one. 

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.  In this verse it says that whosoever looketh on a a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.  I emphasize those points b/c I agree with you they are two different things...lusting and adultery in a technical sense...however this verse clarifies that is has the same effect as the actual deed.  It clarifies that if you are looking at a woman with a lustful desire it is the same impact as physically having sex with her.  Those same thoughts as if you were having sex with her are going through your mind at the same time you are "lusting" after her.  Have you ever heard the term "emotional affair".  No, the spouse didn't physically "sleep" with the other partner, but they did things, said things, shared things, thought things they would never want their spouse to know about.  I've always gone by the general rule to not do or act anyway around another man that I wouldn't feel comfortable doing the same thing in front of my H.  THAT, to me, is how you know if it's wrong or not.  You can't tell me that a man looking at pictures of naked women (and I'm not talking about in an art gallery or something) is not exactly the type of thing that God was talking about in that verse.  If that's your belief then I pray God brings you clarity.

It might surprise you to know that my day job is as a marriage therapist and so yes, I have heard the term "emotional affair." While it is an appropriate term for certain situations, it does not equate to adultery.

It may also surprise you that looking at pornography does not necessarily result in imaging adulterous behavior any more than hating someone necessarily results in murder.

The result in the heart is not caused by pornography or adultery. It is, quite frankly, the other way around. We are not guilty because we have done something (actual or imagined), we are guilty because of the kinds of people we are. That guilt however, deals with our relationship with God, not with one another.

Fornication is a sexual sin.  A man cannot look at an unrelated naked woman and not be aroused.  Unlesee maybe we're talking about a doctor or something..but even then  ...why I stick to the women  .  Anyway.  I even asked my father and he say's you're deluding yourself if you believe that and it goes against the Bible and is very clear in the verse I quoted before.  I'm done  about it so 

Quote from: HRoberson on Tue Sep 23, 2008 - 17:43:39
You of course, make the jump from "looking" to "lusting," which implies that you know the heart of another. The two are different, even if we don't think "looking" is possible.

Sir, I don't know the heart of another, and maybe it's not right for me to say this....but if a man has had a history in the past, and is on the internet looking up busty nudes, then I guess I probably do think it is for lust.

 

Quote from: HRoberson on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 14:04:29

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 08:50:41

Quote from: HRoberson on Tue Sep 23, 2008 - 22:51:25
My dear friend, again, Jesus is moving us to a higher level of living. He is not primarily re-defining a term but making us look at our hearts. Jesus did not merge the two concepts, He simply called His followers to a higher standard of behavior.

They are not the same, any more than hate and murder are. Or do you think that if I hate someone, I might just as well go ahead and shoot them?

I think not.

I agree he has called "his followers" to higher standards of living...however my H is not one. 

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.  In this verse it says that whosoever looketh on a a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.  I emphasize those points b/c I agree with you they are two different things...lusting and adultery in a technical sense...however this verse clarifies that is has the same effect as the actual deed.  It clarifies that if you are looking at a woman with a lustful desire it is the same impact as physically having sex with her.  Those same thoughts as if you were having sex with her are going through your mind at the same time you are "lusting" after her.  Have you ever heard the term "emotional affair".  No, the spouse didn't physically "sleep" with the other partner, but they did things, said things, shared things, thought things they would never want their spouse to know about.  I've always gone by the general rule to not do or act anyway around another man that I wouldn't feel comfortable doing the same thing in front of my H.  THAT, to me, is how you know if it's wrong or not.  You can't tell me that a man looking at pictures of naked women (and I'm not talking about in an art gallery or something) is not exactly the type of thing that God was talking about in that verse.  If that's your belief then I pray God brings you clarity.

It might surprise you to know that my day job is as a marriage therapist and so yes, I have heard the term "emotional affair." While it is an appropriate term for certain situations, it does not equate to adultery.

It may also surprise you that looking at pornography does not necessarily result in imaging adulterous behavior any more than hating someone necessarily results in murder.

The result in the heart is not caused by pornography or adultery. It is, quite frankly, the other way around. We are not guilty because we have done something (actual or imagined), we are guilty because of the kinds of people we are. That guilt however, deals with our relationship with God, not with one another.

I wonder HRobertson and others who say looking does not equal lusting and who seem to justify looking at pornography, playboy etc...  Is it because you yourself participate in these things and want to find a way to excuse it for yourselves (a question BTW not an accusation)?  Also wasn't it you HRoberson who said on another thread that women were created to be a servant to man, not a companion or equal?  How then do you fairly and impartially do a job as marriage councelor?  Do you spend the entire session berating the wife on how she should serve her husband, work, work submit submit submit do whatever he wants because she is nothing more then a servant.  Do you disregard his possible conduct and forget the commandment for a husband to love his wife?

So tell me those who think it is ok and doesn't equal lusting or inappropriate conduct, if looking doesn't lead to lusting then why do it in the 1st place?  Are all these men viewing internet porn, nude photos, playboy, movies whatever from a medical point of view?  Are they just trying to learn about the human body?  No, they look because they want to lust!

Another thing I might ask, if it is not wrong or doesn't lead to lusting then let me ask would you do it if Jesus was sitting next to you on the couch?  If not how do you excuse it, if so I am very worried for you!

Quote from: christianchick on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 16:38:12

Quote from: HRoberson on Tue Sep 23, 2008 - 17:43:39
You of course, make the jump from "looking" to "lusting," which implies that you know the heart of another. The two are different, even if we don't think "looking" is possible.

Sir, I don't know the heart of another, and maybe it's not right for me to say this....but if a man has had a history in the past, and is on the internet looking up busty nudes, then I guess I probably do think it is for lust.

Don't doubt yourself, you are absolutely right!

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 16:29:51

Quote from: HRoberson on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 14:04:29

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 08:50:41

Quote from: HRoberson on Tue Sep 23, 2008 - 22:51:25
My dear friend, again, Jesus is moving us to a higher level of living. He is not primarily re-defining a term but making us look at our hearts. Jesus did not merge the two concepts, He simply called His followers to a higher standard of behavior.

They are not the same, any more than hate and murder are. Or do you think that if I hate someone, I might just as well go ahead and shoot them?

I think not.

I agree he has called "his followers" to higher standards of living...however my H is not one. 

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.  In this verse it says that whosoever looketh on a a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.  I emphasize those points b/c I agree with you they are two different things...lusting and adultery in a technical sense...however this verse clarifies that is has the same effect as the actual deed.  It clarifies that if you are looking at a woman with a lustful desire it is the same impact as physically having sex with her.  Those same thoughts as if you were having sex with her are going through your mind at the same time you are "lusting" after her.  Have you ever heard the term "emotional affair".  No, the spouse didn't physically "sleep" with the other partner, but they did things, said things, shared things, thought things they would never want their spouse to know about.  I've always gone by the general rule to not do or act anyway around another man that I wouldn't feel comfortable doing the same thing in front of my H.  THAT, to me, is how you know if it's wrong or not.  You can't tell me that a man looking at pictures of naked women (and I'm not talking about in an art gallery or something) is not exactly the type of thing that God was talking about in that verse.  If that's your belief then I pray God brings you clarity.

It might surprise you to know that my day job is as a marriage therapist and so yes, I have heard the term "emotional affair." While it is an appropriate term for certain situations, it does not equate to adultery.

It may also surprise you that looking at pornography does not necessarily result in imaging adulterous behavior any more than hating someone necessarily results in murder.

The result in the heart is not caused by pornography or adultery. It is, quite frankly, the other way around. We are not guilty because we have done something (actual or imagined), we are guilty because of the kinds of people we are. That guilt however, deals with our relationship with God, not with one another.

Hmmm...I'm thinking wolf in sheep's clothing right about now.  Yes I mean you.

Fornication is a sexual sin.  A man cannot look at an unrelated naked woman and not be aroused.  Unlesee maybe we're talking about a doctor or something..but even then  ...why I stick to the women  .  Anyway.  I even asked my father and he say's you're deluding yourself if you believe that and it goes against the Bible and is very clear in the verse I quoted before.  I'm done  about it so 

Then maybe, perchance, it is you and your father with the problem. If, as you surmise, a doctor (male or female) can treat people of the opposite sex without becoming aroused, you have answered your own question. Yes, it can be done.

I have no idea whether anyone you know has a problem one way or the other, but you seem pretty sure - to the point of equating pornography and adultery as though they are equitable behaviors. They are not the same and no amount of foot-stomping and personal attacks will change that very simple fact.

You may not like either one and that, quite frankly, is irrelevant to the point under consideration.

A husband (or a wife) viewing pornography is not the same as adultery and does not support divorcing them - regardless of how much you may have been hurt. Further, the allowance for divorce in such cases is "because of our hard hearts," not because it is the Christian thing to do, even if we feel "justified" in doing it.

Attempts to equate viewing pornography and adultery, suggesting that doing the first is always the same as the second is, simply poor theology and poor exegesis. It matters not what you or your father may think about it. As I have indicated before, the argument that viewing pornography is prima facie evidence of adultery is the same as considering hate prima facie evidence of murder. To interpret Scripture so that it says that is to completely miss the point and becomes considerably self serving after four pages of nonsense.

If you're going to talk about me, get my name right.

You, my dear, are reading into my posts things that I have neither said nor implied. It is your prejudice, your bias, your colored glasses that bring those things to your mind. As a result, you assume motives and impugn character after making up motivations. The guise of saying "just a question, not an accusation" does not change the impact of your writing.

You apparently have an uncanny ability to miss humor when placed in front of your nose.

Very Christian of you, no? No.

I do not know, and neither do you, whether any particular person lusts while viewing pornography. But even if they do, lusting remains something different than adultery and as I have said elsewhere, no amount of foot-stomping and innuendo will change that.

Neither are appropriate but neither are they the same.

Suggesting they are, for the purpose of jettisoning a spouse, is a somewhat disingenuous behavior.

Quote from: HRoberson on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 18:22:45
If you're going to talk about me, get my name right.

You, my dear, are reading into my posts things that I have neither said nor implied. It is your prejudice, your bias, your colored glasses that bring those things to your mind. As a result, you assume motives and impugn character after making up motivations. The guise of saying "just a question, not an accusation" does not change the impact of your writing.

You apparently have an uncanny ability to miss humor when placed in front of your nose.

Very Christian of you, no? No.

I do not know, and neither do you, whether any particular person lusts while viewing pornography. But even if they do, lusting remains something different than adultery and as I have said elsewhere, no amount of foot-stomping and innuendo will change that.

Neither are appropriate but neither are they the same.

Suggesting they are, for the purpose of jettisoning a spouse, is a somewhat disingenuous behavior.

Ahh and I see quite a bit of self righteousness coming from your end of the field and if any of that was humor you are right I missed it, your sense of humor and timing seem a bit out of whack to me!  And don't talk to me about impugning charactor and making up motivations- my questions were exactly that, you seem a bit over sensitive to anyone challenging what seems to be from you a view of superiority and intolerance- again makes me question your effectiveness as a counselor, especially when you take someone who has gone through/is going through such a difficult time in her life and instead of offering anything helpful you use the forum (once again) to attempt to display you supposed superior knowledge and dismiss her writings as 4 pages of nonsense.

All that I have read from you in more then one thread denotes your superiority complex, you must be quite happy that you are so above the rest of us but guess what in the eyes of God not you or anyone is better then another regardless of how far above everyone else you seem to believe you are!

Sin is sin, there is no sugar coating it regardless of how you may try!   Oh, sorry for inserting the t in error if that is what you need to point out to make yourself higher up on the pedestal go for it!

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 14:02:45
Typical response...ever considered politics!??


Ah...I just looked at your profile.  Says your 28.  Enough said! 

And what does that mean?

Wow!  You are so disturbingly wrong I am tempted to write to your church who you say you are an elder at and point them to this message and see what their thoughts on it are.  I'd hate to think anyone with your viewpoints are in leadership in any Christian church.  I pray for them.

Quote from: HRoberson on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 18:22:45
I do not know, and neither do you, whether any particular person lusts while viewing pornography. It is not possible to view pornography and NOT lust after someone else.  If you believe that you are a fool! But even if they do, lusting remains something different than adultery So NOT true as said so in the bible in the previous verse mentionedand as I have said elsewhere, no amount of foot-stomping and innuendo will change that.  No need to foot stomp when the bible backs you up!!

Neither are appropriate but neither are they the same.  Again, not what the bible says, they ARE the same!

Suggesting they are, for the purpose of jettisoning a spouse, is a somewhat disingenuous behavior.

Quote from: Mac on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 15:28:18

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 12:38:53
I was a Christian and he was a "professed" Catholic when we married.  I say "professed" because he never did or has really followed that faith or practiced it outside the ocassional Sunday mass.

Sadly, this is not the first time I have heard this happening. It is more common than you think. I will not elaborate past that.

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 12:38:53
I italicized that b/c that is what applies in my circumstances.  I am the believer and although I sanctified my H through my beliefs, he left me (even though I was the one to move out) and therefor am not bound to him.
We are currently separated.  I am living with my two children DD3, DS1 at my parent's house which is about 10 minutes away.  It was either that or "I had to make another $650/month so he could move out into his own apartment"...that's why I say he left even though I physically left.  That was my choice...which really wasn't an option and he knew that.  I pray for him constantly that he will be open to God to receive him in the way God meant for it to be...not just as a "religion" but as a personal "relationship" with God and to live by the Bible's guidance.  His talk is that he wants that and is doing that...his actions and "fruits" speak differently.  AKA his looking at porn and other stuff I haven't even gotten into on here.

Maybe I didn't understand you. From your post it seems he hasn't left. You did. Would he have left and it cost you the 650.00 a month? It does seem that you have given up on him though. And maybe rightfully so. I have no idea what you have been through but it still seems that you left the marriage, not him. Why not let HIM leave...Was he telling you he would not support you during a separation? If so, there are legal ways to fix that. Who's decision was it to separate?

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 12:38:53
Not that it is my "reason" for divorce, but why not...the Bible even says as you quoted above that I am not bound to him if he left. 

Again, he has not left. Who wants this? You or him? Separation is one thing...Divorce is on whole another plateau. I understand how you feel...I REALLY do. But divorce should be the very LAST thing you do. If he proves to be a statistic and does not change with good, Godly help, ok.

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 12:38:53
I pray for him constantly that he will be open to God to receive him in the way God meant for it to be...not just as a "religion" but as a personal "relationship" with God and to live by the Bible's guidance.  His talk is that he wants that and is doing that...his actions and "fruits" speak differently.  AKA his looking at porn and other stuff I haven't even gotten into on here.

Keep praying. As far as the fruits, I have to agree with you there. The fruits speak for themselves...As the bible tells us, Good trees will not grow bad fruit and bad trees can't grow good fruit.

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 12:38:53
I find that hard to believe giving the information I have given, unless of course you don't believe me.  I don't think that's the case, I just think you hope for things to be different and work out.  If you do your research on Abusers you will see it is nearly impossible for them to change.  In fact the proven odds are about 95% of them do not.  I noticed in one of your post that you have children, remember this...Their lives will be impacted greatly by a divorce.

I have no reason to not believe you and I do not hope for anything. I pray that the Lord's will is done here. That is all I am saying. And contrary to others, I do not believe that His will is divorce...Even when you have a reason (adultery), you should try to find a way to reconcile...God can heal these things. I guess I am saying, Don't close the book on the marriage just yet. I understand about the abuse...More than you know...But God can heal that too...It may take some time...What is your commitment to waiting?

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 12:38:53
Thanks for the guilt trip.  No offense, but this is why abused women don't turn to their churches, b/c of comments like this.  Do you honestly think I haven't thought about how my children would be impacted by this.  I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place.  OK...stay with a H who is verbally abusive towards me...teach my D that it's okay for a man to treat her that way.  Teach my son it's okay for him to treat a woman that way.  Do you really think they'll listen when I turn right around after an incident and say 'Don't you do that...Daddy was wrong...it's wrong to behave that way".  They'll grow up resenting me for being a pushover and hating him for how he treats me.  Oh and as they grow up and become more independent, then his abuse will turn towards them.  Making them feel worthless, and insufficient.  So, do I stay and try to take the brunt of it myself and try to shield them from this as much as possible?? Or, do I leave...take a stand for myself and for them.  Show them a good role model and how to handle and defend themselves from these kinds of attacks.  Give them a safe haven that they can return to if they feel "attacked" some day by their own father?? You tell me.  Of course, they (AND ME) will be hurt by a divorce.  I am not the one CAUSING THE SIN which is resulting in the divorce.   So, as Cristalsmama has mentioned before...you see why comments like this make us feel cornered and "uppity" about it.  You have NO idea how turmoiled we are about it.  There is no good decision here...only a right one.

Please...What I posted was not a guilt trip. It is 100% truth....What do you expect a church to say? They are hoping that the Lord will heal the marriage..Sorry that the church doesn't just say, "Yep, I think you should divorce him". That is not the way to deal with it. Biblically speaking, there are steps to take. Get counseling. If it is still bad, try a separation and counseling. Then last case scenario, divorce...I am in no way advocating you stay and be abused. Nor am I saying your kids need to see that either. I NEVER POSTED THAT. This goes back to my saying you have your mind made up. You are so angry that I do not agree with the divorce issue that you are now saying things I never posted. I POSTED FOR YOU TO SEPARATE.  And for the record, I DO know how turmoiled you are. You do not know what you are talking about. I lived in it for most of my life. I am not saying this is your deal but I have seen many people say, "I am being abused". Only to find out that they are equally abusing each other. Ones actions are causing a reaction from the other. And they are bound and determined to have the last word. And they feed off of each other..Both of them. Is this your situation? Have you tried to be non-confrontational with him? You seem very combative in your post...

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 12:38:53
I don't remember posting that...if you could show me where or more of what I said, I could elaborate for you.[/b]

You posted this;
"I believe I have made up my mind about our marriage and my position is that I no longer have the yearning to fight for something I see no hope in.  I believe God is leading me to restore myself and protect myself as his temple and my children from any further damage.  I will leave it in God's hands and continue to pray for my H.  I pray God will reach him and extend an everlasting change in his heart and soul and he will become the man I believe God wanted for me.  However, I can't make that happen...only he can.  He has to be willing to receive God's voice.  If that should happen and God has kept me "available" for him then so be it.  Otherwise, I feel I'm justified in legally ending a marriage that has been spiritually ended by fault of my H time and time again.  At times, I still question my decision though and come here for any support on something I might wish to gleen more knowledge on which is what prompted this post to begin with."

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 12:38:53
My H knows this would hurt and offend me as well.  What's so mind boggling about it that he has been cheated on in the past and knows the pain and has always claimed to be faithful to me b/c he knows first hand how hurtful that is, and has always expressed great disgust for porn etc too. 

I am very sorry to hear that. Pornography is an addiction that is tough to break. It is bondage...His claim of faithfulness is for naught if he is addicted to porn...He is lusting after another woman...

I hate that he did that to you.

Mac, I can see and feel that you have a very caring heart and you are the only one who has made any impartial sense on this thread.  God bless you!

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 18:38:39
Wow!  You are so disturbingly wrong I am tempted to write to your church who you say you are an elder at and point them to this message and see what their thoughts on it are.  I'd hate to think anyone with your viewpoints are in leadership in any Christian church.  I pray for them.

Quote from: HRoberson on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 18:22:45
I do not know, and neither do you, whether any particular person lusts while viewing pornography. It is not possible to view pornography and NOT lust after someone else.  If you believe that you are a fool! But even if they do, lusting remains something different than adultery So NOT true as said so in the bible in the previous verse mentionedand as I have said elsewhere, no amount of foot-stomping and innuendo will change that.  No need to foot stomp when the bible backs you up!!

Neither are appropriate but neither are they the same.  Again, not what the bible says, they ARE the same!

Suggesting they are, for the purpose of jettisoning a spouse, is a somewhat disingenuous behavior.

I simply love threats, don't you? And that self-righteous concern is simply precious. Oh, and the name calling! Too cute, really.

Your inability to parse Scripture somehow emboldens you to continue asserting as fact, things that clearly aren't. No amount of bolding or threats to report me will change the fact that you are simply wrong to assert that the two (lusting and adultery) are equivalent - especially when used as an excuse to divorce a spouse.

I'll ask again, are hate and murder the same? To be consistent, your answer must be "yes."

Which of course, is simply silly.

 

Moderator Warning:

Discuss the issues, and do it WITHOUT making this personal with insults and name calling.

That is all.

test...since my other post disappeared 

Quote from: HRoberson on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 20:29:11
Your inability to parse Scripture somehow emboldens you to continue asserting as fact, things that clearly aren't. No amount of bolding or threats to report me will change the fact that you are simply wrong to assert that the two (lusting and adultery) are equivalent - especially when used as an excuse to divorce a spouse.

I'll ask again, are hate and murder the same? To be consistent, your answer must be "yes."

Which of course, is simply silly.

YES according to scripture they are...

1 John 3:15
Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

Here's the other verse to refresh your memory:

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Recap:
Hate=Murderer
Lust=Adultery

Doesn't get much clearer than that. 

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 21:37:24

Quote from: HRoberson on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 20:29:11
Your inability to parse Scripture somehow emboldens you to continue asserting as fact, things that clearly aren't. No amount of bolding or threats to report me will change the fact that you are simply wrong to assert that the two (lusting and adultery) are equivalent - especially when used as an excuse to divorce a spouse.

I'll ask again, are hate and murder the same? To be consistent, your answer must be "yes."

Which of course, is simply silly.

YES according to scripture they are...

1 John 3:15
Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

Here's the other verse to refresh your memory:

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Recap:
Hate=Murderer
Lust=Adultery

Doesn't get much clearer than that. 

So you would recommend executing folks for hate, is that the idea?

Quote from: cristals mama on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 18:33:08

Quote from: HRoberson on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 18:22:45
If you're going to talk about me, get my name right.

You, my dear, are reading into my posts things that I have neither said nor implied. It is your prejudice, your bias, your colored glasses that bring those things to your mind. As a result, you assume motives and impugn character after making up motivations. The guise of saying "just a question, not an accusation" does not change the impact of your writing.

You apparently have an uncanny ability to miss humor when placed in front of your nose.

Very Christian of you, no? No.

I do not know, and neither do you, whether any particular person lusts while viewing pornography. But even if they do, lusting remains something different than adultery and as I have said elsewhere, no amount of foot-stomping and innuendo will change that.

Neither are appropriate but neither are they the same.

Suggesting they are, for the purpose of jettisoning a spouse, is a somewhat disingenuous behavior.

Ahh and I see quite a bit of self righteousness coming from your end of the field and if any of that was humor you are right I missed it, your sense of humor and timing seem a bit out of whack to me!  And don't talk to me about impugning charactor and making up motivations- my questions were exactly that, you seem a bit over sensitive to anyone challenging what seems to be from you a view of superiority and intolerance- again makes me question your effectiveness as a counselor, especially when you take someone who has gone through/is going through such a difficult time in her life and instead of offering anything helpful you use the forum (once again) to attempt to display you supposed superior knowledge and dismiss her writings as 4 pages of nonsense.

All that I have read from you in more then one thread denotes your superiority complex, you must be quite happy that you are so above the rest of us but guess what in the eyes of God not you or anyone is better then another regardless of how far above everyone else you seem to believe you are!

Sin is sin, there is no sugar coating it regardless of how you may try!   Oh, sorry for inserting the t in error if that is what you need to point out to make yourself higher up on the pedestal go for it!

Let's rehearse, shall we?

The OP asked a question, the answer to which is "no."

Despite the obviousness of that answer, we want to justify giving up on a spouse because in our minds we can equate viewing pornography with adultery. Then we get upset when someone suggests that making such a use of Jesus' words is simply ripping them out of their context and misapplying them.

If what you want is for everyone to agree with every mistaken assertion, you will likely be sorely disappointed.

Personally, I'd support divorcing someone for repeatedly viewing pornography and refusing to get help for it (assuming the injured party was essentially "innocent"), but that support isn't based on the gymnastics of trying to make two different concepts equate to one another so that we have a "Biblical reason for divorce." Nor would I support divorcing a spouse for simply looking at pornography whether they "lusted" as a result or not. The behavior would have to have been extended and without remorse. Everyone's allowed to slip, even spouses who have a porn problem.

It's a whole lot easier and less stress producing to simply admit that I don't like my spouse looking at porn and I'm not going to put up with it, rather than force Scripture to say something it doesn't. Again the admonition is for me, not you. I'm supposed to check my motivation, not evaluate yours. And again, the allowance for divorce isn't the preferred option - it is only included because of our hard hearts, which themselves aren't highly recommended.

The answer to the question in the OP has nothing to do with how "hurt" someone is, nor does my disagreeing mean I'm an ogre, incompetent, arrogant, or reportable.

Quote from: HRoberson on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 23:28:17

Quote from: cristals mama on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 18:33:08

Quote from: HRoberson on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 18:22:45
If you're going to talk about me, get my name right.

You, my dear, are reading into my posts things that I have neither said nor implied. It is your prejudice, your bias, your colored glasses that bring those things to your mind. As a result, you assume motives and impugn character after making up motivations. The guise of saying "just a question, not an accusation" does not change the impact of your writing.

You apparently have an uncanny ability to miss humor when placed in front of your nose.

Very Christian of you, no? No.

I do not know, and neither do you, whether any particular person lusts while viewing pornography. But even if they do, lusting remains something different than adultery and as I have said elsewhere, no amount of foot-stomping and innuendo will change that.

Neither are appropriate but neither are they the same.

Suggesting they are, for the purpose of jettisoning a spouse, is a somewhat disingenuous behavior.

Ahh and I see quite a bit of self righteousness coming from your end of the field and if any of that was humor you are right I missed it, your sense of humor and timing seem a bit out of whack to me!  And don't talk to me about impugning charactor and making up motivations- my questions were exactly that, you seem a bit over sensitive to anyone challenging what seems to be from you a view of superiority and intolerance- again makes me question your effectiveness as a counselor, especially when you take someone who has gone through/is going through such a difficult time in her life and instead of offering anything helpful you use the forum (once again) to attempt to display you supposed superior knowledge and dismiss her writings as 4 pages of nonsense.

All that I have read from you in more then one thread denotes your superiority complex, you must be quite happy that you are so above the rest of us but guess what in the eyes of God not you or anyone is better then another regardless of how far above everyone else you seem to believe you are!

Sin is sin, there is no sugar coating it regardless of how you may try!   Oh, sorry for inserting the t in error if that is what you need to point out to make yourself higher up on the pedestal go for it!

Let's rehearse, shall we?

The OP asked a question, the answer to which is "no."

Despite the obviousness of that answer, we want to justify giving up on a spouse because in our minds we can equate viewing pornography with adultery. Then we get upset when someone suggests that making such a use of Jesus' words is simply ripping them out of their context and misapplying them.

If what you want is for everyone to agree with every mistaken assertion, you will likely be sorely disappointed.

Personally, I'd support divorcing someone for repeatedly viewing pornography and refusing to get help for it (assuming the injured party was essentially "innocent"), but that support isn't based on the gymnastics of trying to make two different concepts equate to one another so that we have a "Biblical reason for divorce." Nor would I support divorcing a spouse for simply looking at pornography whether they "lusted" as a result or not. The behavior would have to have been extended and without remorse. Everyone's allowed to slip, even spouses who have a porn problem.

It's a whole lot easier and less stress producing to simply admit that I don't like my spouse looking at porn and I'm not going to put up with it, rather than force Scripture to say something it doesn't. Again the admonition is for me, not you. I'm supposed to check my motivation, not evaluate yours. And again, the allowance for divorce isn't the preferred option - it is only included because of our hard hearts, which themselves aren't highly recommended.

The answer to the question in the OP has nothing to do with how "hurt" someone is, nor does my disagreeing mean I'm an ogre, incompetent, arrogant, or reportable.

Well thank you that comes across  much more understandable and I appreciate your further clarity!  Also while you disagreeing with someone may not automatically make you the things you wrote above, neither does it make me that which you stated about me just because I may disagree with you (ie .. un-Christian, prejudice, bias, etc)!  Fact is I don't agree with easy quick divorce for any reason, if I did I would have done it years ago based on how my husband has behaved and in my case it would be just cause, but still I do not approach the subject lightly.

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 16:19:06
I'm sure it was not your intention to lay a guilt trip on me.  If you say you've lived in it for most of your life, I am astonished you are less empathetic.  A lot of times, "getting the last word in" comes when the abused victim has realized they've been abused and starts standing up for themselves..often causing things to escalate and sometimes unfortunately this can even escalate to physical abuse.

Well, I do say it...Believe me, I lived it. But as I grew older and deeper with my relationship with Christ, I also was able to realize my part in it also. It was the little things...Instead of letting a situation cool down, I would just HAVE to give my opinion..All that would do is draw more wrath...Verbal, mental and yes, physical abuse.  Instead of just letting it go and not provoking the anger. That is what I am talking about. Me, as a person, I have ZERO chance of living the way I should with out the Lord's help. I am empathetic, however, I do realize there are two sides to every story...I am not saying you are not being truthful...I am only saying that there is room for improvement in all of our lives....

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Wed Sep 24, 2008 - 16:19:06
Agh..so you pm'd me.  Yes I meant available as in God has not provided me with someone else that he sees fit as my mate.  Not that I'm "looking", but I don't know God's plan for me.

I see. You are going to have to make a decision to get off the fence....Either you are going to be committed to your marriage, which according to God's Word would be in His "plan" for you, or you are going to leave it and be open to "new things". You say you are not looking but your post seems to lead in a different direction. Your marriage is either going to be priority number 1 or not. I am not being ugly, just honest.

Quote from: Mac on Thu Sep 25, 2008 - 07:11:16
Well, I do say it...Believe me, I lived it. But as I grew older and deeper with my relationship with Christ, I also was able to realize my part in it also. It was the little things...Instead of letting a situation cool down, I would just HAVE to give my opinion..All that would do is draw more wrath...Verbal, mental and yes, physical abuse.  Instead of just letting it go and not provoking the anger. That is what I am talking about. Me, as a person, I have ZERO chance of living the way I should with out the Lord's help. I am empathetic, however, I do realize there are two sides to every story...I am not saying you are not being truthful...I am only saying that there is room for improvement in all of our lives....

I'm sorry, I must disagree.  "Realizing your part in it"...your part was simply defending yourself.  There is nothing wrong with giving your opinion.  The problem is, with an abuser, that is SO wrong.  It does instigate further anger, but that is not "our fault".  Only you can be in control of your feelings and how you react to something/someone.  What you learned IMO is how to cope...not what "your part" in it was.  Of course, no one is perfect, but I know for myself and I'll bet anyone else who's been abused can say the same, they came as close to being as perfect as their abuser wanted them to be.....as a defense mechanism.


I see. You are going to have to make a decision to get off the fence....Either you are going to be committed to your marriage, which according to God's Word would be in His "plan" for you, or you are going to leave it and be open to "new things". You say you are not looking but your post seems to lead in a different direction. Your marriage is either going to be priority number 1 or not. I am not being ugly, just honest.

You presume that's God's "plan" for me.  My relationship with God, healing myself and my kids is #1 to me right now.  I believe if God's plans for "me" include restoring my marriage he will work in my H and show me his true changes and then we can begin reconciliation.  I don't take offense to your comments Mac, I appreciate them  .  TY!

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Thu Sep 25, 2008 - 07:52:56
I'm sorry, I must disagree.  "Realizing your part in it"...your part was simply defending yourself.  There is nothing wrong with giving your opinion.  The problem is, with an abuser, that is SO wrong.  It does instigate further anger, but that is not "our fault".  Only you can be in control of your feelings and how you react to something/someone.  What you learned IMO is how to cope...not what "your part" in it was.  Of course, no one is perfect, but I know for myself and I'll bet anyone else who's been abused can say the same, they came as close to being as perfect as their abuser wanted them to be.....as a defense mechanism.

Ok, fine...Before you read any further, understand this is a dialogue here..I am just asking questions...Do not get angry..Rather think about what I am asking..I want you to do me a favor then, look at these following scriptures and tell me how you try to live these daily in your marriage....Do you think that they apply to you? Do you think because he is doing wrong that you should not "behave" this way? I am really genuinely interested in what you believe about these verses. I know what it says about husbands, but what and how do you handle YOUR role as a wife? Do you see it in a way that you're not "held" to this standard?

Let's look at the scriptures from Ephesians 5;

15Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, 16making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. 17Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is. 18Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit. 19Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, 20always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

21Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

Wives and Husbands
22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."[c] 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

And again in the book of 1 Peter chapter 2;

22"He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth." 23When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. 24He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. 25For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
Then in 1 Peter chapter 3;

1Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. 3Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. 4Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. 5For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, 6like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.


Now, don't say, What about him? I know that.... But I want to know what you think about YOUR role here...As you see, Jesus never gave His "opinion" when he was being mistreated....Why? Because he knew it did not serve the greater cause of His Fathers purpose...That doesn't mean he had no opinion..It does mean that he would only render it when it was to the glory of the Father...If it was to create a problem, he wouldn't do it. We are charged to be as Christ like as we can. We all fall short, but we must try none the less. Please understand, I am not advocating people should accept and suffer through abuse...I really want to know what you think about this...

Quote from: Supergirl9801 on Thu Sep 25, 2008 - 07:52:56
You presume that's God's "plan" for me.  My relationship with God, healing myself and my kids is #1 to me right now.  I believe if God's plans for "me" include restoring my marriage he will work in my H and show me his true changes and then we can begin reconciliation.  I don't take offense to your comments Mac, I appreciate them  .  TY!

Yes, I do believe that would be God's will in ANY ones marriage. Because I know that the sanctity of marriage is very important to the Lord. Marriage is a covenant/vow to the Lord as well as the spouse. I certainly agree with your attention to your spiritual well being and your children. You may be right and he may never change...But the only one who knows that is the Lord. Not you, me or any one else on this board for that matter.. God can work miracles...I have seen them with my on two eyes. But, your H has to be willing to submit his life to Christ. Anything short of that will be for nothing....You can paint over rust, and it may look good...But the rust is still there and it WILL eventually show through and be far worse this time around...


You see, my wife lives by being submissive...And it has made our marriage great...I, like some people, have a temper...But it is NEVER triggered because she doesn't push button that would do it..We have been married for almost 7 years and have never had a fight...I have NEVER yelled at her...NEVER...We have disagreements of course...But we talk about them...I Love my wife as Christ loves the church...You know how I know that? Because my wife told me AND I wouldn't do anything to hurt her...I would die for my wife...Love is action..It is not a feeling...If you look at the bibles definition of the word "Love" it defines it with action words....Love is kind...Love is long suffering...Love is...Well here it is, 1 Corinthians 13;

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Loving someone is an act of obedience to the Lord....It takes a lot of work...Man, I have to go...I will get back to you later....