Christian Forums

Quote from: david johnson on Fri Sep 07, 2007 - 17:45:29
baptism, instrumental accompaniments in a worship service, remarriage...yep they're everywhere!

dj

Women speaking, who passes out the communion, tongues, Spiritual gifts..........

Love you guys, and thanks for putting up with my inputs.

FTL

Quote from: Harold on Fri Sep 07, 2007 - 14:12:10

Quote from: zoonance on Fri Sep 07, 2007 - 08:03:17
I don't remember either!  I don't think it matters anymore anyway.  Given the title of this thread, it may have been something like "What about the evidence suggesting the contrary?" and you can look up the wonderful responses to that simple question. 

This is a good example, without providing any of the evidence there is, to what would I respond. Hence obscure answers.

The Bible says, for us less educated, evening, morning, length a day.

What evidence do you have to refute this statement?

FTL

FTL

I would suggest spending some time reading and contemplating those who wrestle with what they find and discover why they fine tune their conclusions.  For those of us who do, it is a fascinating journey but I warn you that you will have to wrestle with the facts as well.  Facts shouldn't frighten you.   (Maybe I am wrong - Does all truth come from God? or is there deceiving secular truths (not interpretations, but clear, repeatable observations, that which is either true or it is false - simply because it is true or false - apart from God?)

There is nothing apart from God.  Or rather, there is no Godless vacuum.

Not even Hell, really.  You can bet there's a lot of thought (and cursing and screaming) about God in Hell.

Quote from: zoonance on Tue Nov 13, 2007 - 15:23:34

I would suggest spending some time reading and contemplating those who wrestle with what they find and discover why they fine tune their conclusions.  For those of us who do, it is a fascinating journey but I warn you that you will have to wrestle with the facts as well.  Facts shouldn't frighten you.   (Maybe I am wrong - Does all truth come from God? or is there deceiving secular truths (not interpretations, but clear, repeatable observations, that which is either true or it is false - simply because it is true or false - apart from God?)

Facts shouldn't frighten us - but I think unfortunately they do.  Maybe its just misplaced faith?  God usually fills the areas of mystery for us.  When something can't be explained mechanically - then we say it must be God or"God of the gaps".  When our faith's foundation is in those gaps - then it is unfortunately put in the position of retreating when more and more "gaps" are explained scientifically.  I think this is a weakness of traditional apologetics.  It might be changing as we learn more of the strange world of quantum mechanics.

Intellegent design apologetics I think are no better than a deist position.  I think we get a better idea of God through relationships, love, art, music, beauty, etc.  But then - everyone is different, one person may see God in something that I'm totally oblivious to.

we do not know 26 pages of stuff regarding this

dj

This may not make any sense.  I wonder if there is a definite difference in believing and resting on the promises of God versus resting on the "information" (which is at least partly subject to human understanding) as equals.   *Trust Me.  Believe in Me.  Repent of sin or else.  I will always be with you.  I am the Way, the Truth and the Life.  I will make you a great nation.   -stuff like that.     

It makes sense to me that God has recorded his tendency to quite clear - word for word  - when he demanded or expected a direct understanding.  And has uses a different language when he wants us to internalize or maybe capture the point

For example: The consequences of sin are clearly tied to day to day existence and our relationship to God - now and eternally.  I am not as sure that intellectual knowledge has the same wedge power.



By the way, the way God confronts Job in the final chapters of Job as He describes His role in creation sounds kind of scientifically revealing in a way that Genesis prose does not.   (If that makes any sense)

Quote from: zoonance on Fri Nov 16, 2007 - 12:52:53
This may not make any sense.  I wonder if there is a definite difference in believing and resting on the promises of God versus resting on the "information" (which is at least partly subject to human understanding) as equals.   *Trust Me.  Believe in Me.  Repent of sin or else.  I will always be with you.  I am the Way, the Truth and the Life.  I will make you a great nation.   -stuff like that.     

It makes sense to me that God has recorded his tendency to quite clear - word for word  - when he demanded or expected a direct understanding.  And has uses a different language when he wants us to internalize or maybe capture the point

For example: The consequences of sin are clearly tied to day to day existence and our relationship to God - now and eternally.  I am not as sure that intellectual knowledge has the same wedge power.

Very astute.  You've discovered something fundamental about faith of the Biblical variety.  Faith can never be in something (an idea), it can only be in someone (person). 

Greek has several different words for "know" that highlight differences in 'why' one knows.  Pistis, faith/belief, is knowing something because you trust the person who told you.  Gnosis, know/knowledge, is knowing something because you've experienced it.  There's another word (can't remember the Gr right now) that means "know because you logically deduced it from other facts."  That one is usually translated "understand."

That's why this will never be settled.  Nobody "knows" in the sense above.
Some of us "believe" something, and some of us "understand" something, and there is no way to settle differences where the two conflict.

QuoteBy the way, the way God confronts Job in the final chapters of Job as He describes His role in creation sounds kind of scientifically revealing in a way that Genesis prose does not.   (If that makes any sense)

Well there's a good can of worms.  Open if you dare.  Job is a very challenging book, in more ways than one.

Quote from: zoonance on Fri Mar 11, 2005 - 13:05:15
I am cursed with a brain who thinks too much.  I happen to work in a zoo and believe me, a christian in the zoo world are either endangered or at risk of extinction!  I picture all the animals in the world waiting in the ark for over a year (some animal' life spans are less than a year by the way), separated by the clean and unclean (meat eating, for humans any way, was not OK'd until after the flood.  All these animals are then turned loose on Mount Ararat and the earth is then replinished, all the continents, all the isolated islands, all the strictly tropical and the strictly frozen polar animals (not sure about the plants) from animals that can produce their own kind.  I am in no way suggesting that evolution is the answer, but rather, by the grace of God I have been cursed with questions in a profession that does not fit genesis literally.  However, the truth of a created world, whatever the details, points to my God in ways that words could never quite explain.  The vast majority of my world could not care less about fighting over points of theology.  They can't even accept the 'theo' yet!  This is why the grace centered magazine is so important to me.  you all believe and allow thinking minds to think!   THANK YOU ALL!!!  Mike

I still think Grace Centered Forum is very important to my walk!

I can't answer the poll.  To answer either True or False is to go beyond that which is written. 

QuoteGenesis1:13 There was evening and there was morning, a third day.

I'm pretty sure an evening and a morning weren't going on for billions of years at a time.....

So 7 days, actual 7 days.


And it says A third day...not 3 milion years of a day...

Quote from: rick6886 on Thu Feb 24, 2005 - 20:36:47
Just looking to see what everybody thinks, this is not a salvation issue by any means. I have heard some interesting theories and was hoping to see if anymore would pop up.

For the record, I voted True, I do believe the days in Genesis were 24 hours long.

my humble 2 cents

Rick

Using purely science and learned hard data within science and Astrophysics, categorically true. If you take the premise of the most accepted notion of how we began at The Planc Moment, the Big Bang, this lines up closely to the biblical accounting of creation quite well.

Robert

for to the lord, a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like a day...

Quote from: Flying To on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 19:57:11

QuoteGenesis1:13 There was evening and there was morning, a third day.

I'm pretty sure an evening and a morning weren't going on for billions of years at a time.....

So 7 days, actual 7 days.


And it says A third day...not 3 milion years of a day...

Wouldn't it be nice if all doctrine was this easy!

Quote from: Flying To on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 19:57:11
I'm pretty sure an evening and a morning weren't going on for billions of years at a time.....

So 7 days, actual 7 days.


And it says A third day...not 3 milion years of a day...

So how long IS a day when there is no sun yet?   

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Wed Nov 26, 2008 - 23:39:42

Quote from: Flying To on Wed Nov 12, 2008 - 19:57:11
I'm pretty sure an evening and a morning weren't going on for billions of years at a time.....

So 7 days, actual 7 days.


And it says A third day...not 3 milion years of a day...

So how long IS a day when there is no sun yet?  

A more interesting question is how is there evening and morning the first 3 days without a sun.

Quote from: the innate on Tue Nov 18, 2008 - 18:58:16
for to the lord, a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like a day...

So, was Jesus in the tomb for 3,000 years, or for just over a third of a second?

Quote from: James Rondon on Thu Nov 27, 2008 - 00:23:38

Quote from: the innate on Tue Nov 18, 2008 - 18:58:16
for to the lord, a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like a day...

So, was Jesus in the tomb for 3,000 years, or for just over a third of a second?

It just seemed like 3000 years.

And nobody ever answered my question...

How long is a day when there is no sun or moon?

You can open the bible on ANY PAGE you want and find a metaphor giving guidance on how to live, how to treat others, and how to treat the world. Who are we to say that the Bible is not using metaphors in Genesis, as it does everywhere else. We have been given the guide, now with our technology we can go out and try to understand God's creation, why people choose to turn their back on the marvels of what we discover is beyond me.

Quote from: Howdyboyalan on Tue Feb 03, 2009 - 14:59:52
You can open the bible on ANY PAGE you want and find a metaphor giving guidance on how to live, how to treat others, and how to treat the world. Who are we to say that the Bible is not using metaphors in Genesis, as it does everywhere else. We have been given the guide, now with our technology we can go out and try to understand God's creation, why people choose to turn their back on the marvels of what we discover is beyond me.

First, because it is not what they believe.  Too often what they believe presupposes what they read.  Hence the interpretation given all too often is based on that presupposition.  That was the case of the earth-centric beliefs in the early 1600's even though Galileo and others provided convincing evidence to the contrary.  Very often, those with strong beliefs are unmoved by even the most convincing data.

And second, a lot of folks are simply not equipped to really understand what the data is saying.  They are too ready to accept anything that supports what they believe even if it is apparent to those who do understand that what they believe is quite nonrational.

And third, too many people are afraid if they recant on this issue, their whole faith will be jeopardized.  So that what they perceive is a strong faith to withstand the "onslaught" is in fact a weak faith.

Genesis 2:2.  "And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made."

Just a thought to throw in against common thinking of creation. To me it says God ended His work on the seventh day, not the sixth.

In Jesus' name - larry2

Quote from: larry2 on Wed Feb 04, 2009 - 03:50:30
Genesis 2:2.  "And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made."

Just a thought to throw in against common thinking of creation. To me it says God ended His work on the seventh day, not the sixth.

In Jesus' name - larry2

One of the arguments given for the 24-hour day meaning for the six days of creation is the reference to the evening and morning of each day.  But the seventh day has no such evening or morning.  Moreoever, it says that  "the heavens and the earth were finished" and "God finished his work that he had done" and "God rested from all his work that he had done in creation".  Now since God in fact is still resting from all His work He had done in creation, and will not take that up again until the heavens and earth are made new again, how long is the seventh day?

Quoting Jimmy - "God finished his work that he had done."

Response - I'm sorry, but my KJV says "On the seventh day God ended his work which he made."

In the sense of renewal within us, God's creation goes on.

Psalms 51:10  Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
 
Philippians 2:13. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
 
There are so many works of the Spirit that continues, Jesus is at work as our daysman and judge, and our Father sits on the throne of grace inviting us to pray. God is not resting, but doing all things for our good.

In Jesus' name - larry2

I said true because later JESUS mentioned them as 6 litteral days.  Plus when was the last time The day and the night took thousands of years to come around?

False.  God is a God of truth.  God's creation contains record of events which occurred further in the past than a literal reading of the six-day Genesis account will permit.  If God is a God of truth the record He left in creation must be true, thus the interpretation of six days must be in error.   My take. 

Quote from: larry2 on Wed Feb 04, 2009 - 11:32:09
Quoting Jimmy - "God finished his work that he had done."

Response - I'm sorry, but my KJV says "On the seventh day God ended his work which he made."

Why are you sorry?  But for what it is worth.

Gen 2:2  And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done. (ESV)

Gen 2:2  And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made: and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had done. (DRB)

Gen 2:2  By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. (NASB)
The difference is moot, it seems to me and I don't seen that it really changes anything.  This is clearly speaking about the creation of the creation of the physical universe and all that is in it.  I am not aware of any new things being created in the universe.  Perhaps you have some insight into that.

Quote from: larry2 on Wed Feb 04, 2009 - 11:32:09
In the sense of renewal within us, God's creation goes on.

Psalms 51:10  Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
 
Philippians 2:13. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
 
There are so many works of the Spirit that continues, Jesus is at work as our daysman and judge, and our Father sits on the throne of grace inviting us to pray. God is not resting, but doing all things for our good.

The Genesis record is not talking about renewals.  It is talking about the creation of the universe.

It doesn't say, nor did I say, that God is resting.  Just that He is resting from His work of creating.

Gen 2:3  And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. (KJV)

Quote from: Barry on Fri Feb 25, 2005 - 09:08:44
For those who voted "False": What do you do with "morning and evening" each day?

Barry

The "morning and evening" were God's day = 1,000 years of man, but only one day with God.

Quote from: MegaJedi on Sat Feb 07, 2009 - 04:41:26
I said true because later JESUS mentioned them as 6 litteral days.  Plus when was the last time The day and the night took thousands of years to come around?

I suppose you would have to be sitting on the throne of God and wearing his shoes to find out.  These were God's days, not man's days.

Quote from: Jimmy on Sat Feb 07, 2009 - 16:42:57

Quote from: larry2 on Wed Feb 04, 2009 - 11:32:09
Quoting Jimmy - "God finished his work that he had done."

Response - I'm sorry, but my KJV says "On the seventh day God ended his work which he made."

Why are you sorry?  But for what it is worth.

Gen 2:2  And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done. (ESV)

Gen 2:2  And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made: and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had done. (DRB)

Gen 2:2  By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. (NASB)
The difference is moot, it seems to me and I don't seen that it really changes anything.  This is clearly speaking about the creation of the creation of the physical universe and all that is in it.  I am not aware of any new things being created in the universe.  Perhaps you have some insight into that.

Quote from: larry2 on Wed Feb 04, 2009 - 11:32:09
In the sense of renewal within us, God's creation goes on.

Psalms 51:10  Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
 
Philippians 2:13. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
 
There are so many works of the Spirit that continues, Jesus is at work as our daysman and judge, and our Father sits on the throne of grace inviting us to pray. God is not resting, but doing all things for our good.

The Genesis record is not talking about renewals.  It is talking about the creation of the universe.

It doesn't say, nor did I say, that God is resting.  Just that He is resting from His work of creating.

Gen 2:3  And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. (KJV)

The reason you do not see the words - "and the evening and the morning was the seventh day" -- is because God did not work on the seventh day - he rested from his work.    Another way of looking at the words "evening and morning" - is to say from "start to finish" this is what I did in my work.

Quote from: Mystery Man on Thu Feb 12, 2009 - 06:06:48

Quote from: Jimmy on Sat Feb 07, 2009 - 16:42:57

Quote from: larry2 on Wed Feb 04, 2009 - 11:32:09
Quoting Jimmy - "God finished his work that he had done."

Response - I'm sorry, but my KJV says "On the seventh day God ended his work which he made."

Why are you sorry?  But for what it is worth.

Gen 2:2  And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done. (ESV)

Gen 2:2  And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made: and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had done. (DRB)

Gen 2:2  By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. (NASB)
The difference is moot, it seems to me and I don't seen that it really changes anything.  This is clearly speaking about the creation of the creation of the physical universe and all that is in it.  I am not aware of any new things being created in the universe.  Perhaps you have some insight into that.

Quote from: larry2 on Wed Feb 04, 2009 - 11:32:09
In the sense of renewal within us, God's creation goes on.

Psalms 51:10  Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
 
Philippians 2:13. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
 
There are so many works of the Spirit that continues, Jesus is at work as our daysman and judge, and our Father sits on the throne of grace inviting us to pray. God is not resting, but doing all things for our good.

The Genesis record is not talking about renewals.  It is talking about the creation of the universe.

It doesn't say, nor did I say, that God is resting.  Just that He is resting from His work of creating.

Gen 2:3  And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. (KJV)

The reason you do not see the words - "and the evening and the morning was the seventh day" -- is because did not work on the seventh day - he rested from his work.    Another way of looking at the words "evening and morning" - is to say from "start to finish" this is what I did in my work.

You can look at it however you wish, but as usual, it doesn't really have anything to do with what it says.

Quote from: rick6886 on Thu Feb 24, 2005 - 20:36:47
Just looking to see what everybody thinks, this is not a salvation issue by any means. I have heard some interesting theories and was hoping to see if anymore would pop up.

For the record, I voted True, I do believe the days in Genesis were 24 hours long.

my humble 2 cents

Rick

yes it is  true.


Does any man have a right to compromise Gods truth agreeing to disagree?  No I dont think so. Either the bible is all Gods word. Or I can't trust any of it.

How did god measure the days prior to his creation of the sun? Therefore how should he have been able to tell whether or not the days were 24 hours in length?

- I don't think so. We can never know for sure, but I don't believe that we are on the exact same time schedule as God is. Obviously God can do anything in any amount of time and it wouldn't be an issue. But, I don't think he did. Just like the prehistoric era [think dinosaurs and such] could have lasted one day in God's time which could have been who knows how long in our time.

The Genesis account of creation should be taken literally. The Hebrew word used for day is translated as a "single 24hr. day." The people then would have not taken that word figuratively and neither should we. People try to warp that word to fit our societies beliefs on creationism and evolutionism by saying those days were millions of years and stuff like that but we just need to have faith in what God's word truly says and know that God has the power to do anything and if He wanted to create the world in 6 days, He could.

Quote from: skywalker85 on Sun Feb 22, 2009 - 23:52:00
The Genesis account of creation should be taken literally. The Hebrew word used for day is translated as a "single 24hr. day." The people then would have not taken that word figuratively and neither should we. People try to warp that word to fit our societies beliefs on creationism and evolutionism by saying those days were millions of years and stuff like that but we just need to have faith in what God's word truly says and know that God has the power to do anything and if He wanted to create the world in 6 days, He could.

Also remember that God could have created the universe in 1 nanosecond if he wanted.

I have a hard time with this one.  It's because I believe in an old earth and a pre adamic race.  I'm not set in stone about that or anything but i don't think that God would have just created everything like it was already aged or something.  Because the calculations of the time of Adam to like Abraham wasn't millions of years so most of the stuff on earth that scientists claim to be millions or even billions of years old can't really be that old if Adam was the true first man.  So with all that to say, I think that the six days could really be 24 hour periods but there has to be some time somewhere else in there.