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Chosenone

QuoteI dont see my husbands role as an authority figure as in him being bossy or domineering (he wouldnt know how to be like this if he tried).He is a very laid back, very patient Australian guy. I do however consider him to be the head of the marriage and the family,and I respect him highly becuase he is a very moral, good and godly man . I trust him implicitly in all things.     

If someone at church asked my wife who the head of our family was she would say I was---with a very slight grin on her face   

If they asked me, I would say we share the responsibility and have done so for almost 35 years! 

She worries what some people at church would think if they absolutely knew the truth that we don't believe in the complimentarian style marriage and tempers what she says with a little more tact than I do.  I really don't care what others think because our marriage is still going strong and what we do works for us.

We have a "Garden of Eden" (egalitarian) style marriage and we love it that way!  I think there are probably many more Christian couples who practice an egalitarian style marriage than will actually admit to it.

Quote from: WileyClarkson on Wed Jan 14, 2009 - 20:21:48
Chosenone

QuoteI dont see my husbands role as an authority figure as in him being bossy or domineering (he wouldnt know how to be like this if he tried).He is a very laid back, very patient Australian guy. I do however consider him to be the head of the marriage and the family,and I respect him highly becuase he is a very moral, good and godly man . I trust him implicitly in all things.    

If someone at church asked my wife who the head of our family was she would say I was---with a very slight grin on her face   

If they asked me, I would say we share the responsibility and have done so for almost 35 years! 

She worries what some people at church would think if they absolutely knew the truth that we don't believe in the complimentarian style marriage and tempers what she says with a little more tact than I do.  I really don't care what others think because our marriage is still going strong and what we do works for us.

We have a "Garden of Eden" (egalitarian) style marriage and we love it that way!  I think there are probably many more Christian couples who practice an egalitarian style marriage than will actually admit to it.

Well its always good when any marriage works out isnt it.
I suppose all I try to do is what I feel God is saying to me about marriage, as I want to please Him above all. Its not a bad thing for any women to allow her husband to be the head, as in my experience many women are quite controlling and many can also be very bossy with their husbands.I see it all the time.
My husbands first wife was like this, very bossy, very domineering and very manipulative, and of course with him being so accepting and good natured, he  just let it happen, but the marriage was NOT blessed becuase of it. Maybe this is why I am so aware of the need to allow him to have what I see as his rightful place in our marriage, and becuase I kNOW that he would never treat me with anything but love and respect,I have absolutely no problem with it. 
I will never allow myself to be like her.

CHosenone,

QuoteMy husbands first wife was like this, very bossy, very domineering and very manipulative, and of course with him being so accepting and good natured, he  just let it happen, but the marriage was NOT blessed becuase of it.

I would say that is probably the opposit side of the male complementarian view because it sure wouldn'd be called mutual submission.

I suspect you probably have a much more mutual submission marriage that you realize but whatever you are doing, if it works, don't change it!

JAIA and phoebe both get some manna from me!!!!

100%  right on!

Quote from: WileyClarkson on Wed Jan 14, 2009 - 21:36:16
CHosenone,

QuoteMy husbands first wife was like this, very bossy, very domineering and very manipulative, and of course with him being so accepting and good natured, he  just let it happen, but the marriage was NOT blessed becuase of it.

I would say that is probably the opposit side of the male complementarian view because it sure wouldn'd be called mutual submission.

I suspect you probably have a much more mutual submission marriage that you realize but whatever you are doing, if it works, don't change it!

Gosh no, is certainly wasnt mutual submission. It was her getting her way all of the time or there was trouble!I guess it was one of those relationships where one does all the giving and one does all the taking. I mean, her two boys secret name for her when they were younger was 'hitler'. Sort of says it all really.
Yes you are probably right in that we do talk and discuss everything, and my views are valued as much as his, but if push come  to shove . he is the head. If he feels that God is telling us to so something, or not do something or whatever, then I will go along with that.
As you say if it is working go with it and it certanly is, I have never been happier since we married and he is truly my 'soul mate'.

Posted by: chosenone

QuoteYes you are probably right in that we do talk and discuss everything, and my views are valued as much as his, but if push come  to shove . he is the head. If he feels that God is telling us to so something, or not do something or whatever, then I will go along with that.

Yes, you are willingly submitting to his decission.  Now put the shoe on the other foot.  Are there times when he willing submits to your views over his views and bases a decission on what you have said?  If you felt that something he said was going to be a total disaster to your family, that God was telling you to tell him "don't do it!", you and he discussed it, you told him why you were so adamantly against what he was planning, and even though he disagreed, he said he would not do that particular thing because you felt the consequences would be bad for the family, etc., would you say he was submitting to your will mutually in a joint decission?

If the answer is yes, then you are really more in a marriage as I believe God wants us to have based in both the NT and in the Garden as God made Adam and Eve for each other.

I don't know. It seems to me that if God wants us to live in mutual submission to each other, that's what we should do. To make one be the "head" seems an unfair burden of responsibility to one of the partners, and a bit of a cop-out on the part of the other. I don't say that to be offensive, but I suspect that is how it will be taken. I say it because that is the whole of the picture. Just because one wife was a dominating jerk doesn't mean that the next wife must be any less than a full and equal partner.

I was taught what chosenone practices, and would like to say "If it works...", but I cannot uphold it because, to me, it opposes God's design for all Christ-followers to live in full, mutual submission to each other, in and out of marriage. The idea that "if push comes to shove..." doesn't happen in a mutually submissive relationship, therefore, there is no need for one to have a higher position in leadership.

I guess I've said all I have to say on this.

Phoebe,

I don't disagree with what you are saying but with the divorce rate going up, if one particular style of marriage works for a couple and they are in full agreement on what they do in their marriage to make it work, then I'm a "don't fix what's not broken" type of person.  Divorce opposes God's idea for marriage and, IMO, the complimentarian style  marriage is the one that seems to be the most prone to divorce, regardless of which direction the oneway submission goes.  That conclussion is from watching church members and co-workers for the last 25 years.  If a particulat style of marriage keeps a couple together in a strong marriage where both are happy and loving, then it has some benificial attributes for that couple. 

Overall I am exactly where you are in the mutual submission views.  Linda and I started our marriage off with mutual submission 35 years ago Feb 15th, even though we didn't plan it that way, did not discuss it in that frame of reference, never heard of the term, were instructed in church that the only style of marriage was the man is the absolute head of the family, and we haven't changed one iota from the day we said I DO  The big decissions we discuss and make together.  The little decissions we trust each other to make wisely in the other's absence.  This wasn't so much something we said this is the way it will be, it was just that we both in our young agees of 25 and 20 were already thinking in terms of equal worth, sharing the load, not fighting over a decission but waiting until we both agree on something or in some cases, willingly backing off when the other said "No-that's a bad idea". 

If a marriage is strong and viable, IMO, there is mutual submission being practiced even when they don't realize it.  I think Chosenone's marriage is probably like that from what she has said in this discussion, even though she doesn't realize it or admit it---yet.

Quote from: phoebe on Wed Jan 14, 2009 - 23:53:11
I don't know. It seems to me that if God wants us to live in mutual submission to each other, that's what we should do. To make one be the "head" seems an unfair burden of responsibility to one of the partners, and a bit of a cop-out on the part of the other. I don't say that to be offensive, but I suspect that is how it will be taken. I say it because that is the whole of the picture. Just because one wife was a dominating jerk doesn't mean that the next wife must be any less than a full and equal partner.

I was taught what chosenone practices, and would like to say "If it works...", but I cannot uphold it because, to me, it opposes God's design for all Christ-followers to live in full, mutual submission to each other, in and out of marriage. The idea that "if push comes to shove..." doesn't happen in a mutually submissive relationship, therefore, there is no need for one to have a higher position in leadership.

I guess I've said all I have to say on this.

Have you ever seen a two headed person?  It's a shockingly different sight.  They appear to be always pulling away from one another rather than working as one.   It happens, but that is not how God designed the human being to look.  Marriage is the same way.  If you have two heads, something is pulling against another.  We cannot speak to our children or others about leadership and authority when we do not submit to the one line of submission God gave us in our own lives.  God to Husband, to wife to children.  Do we allow our children to have mutual authority with us in their lives?  No... they would wear shorts in the snow and boots in the summer.  They would eat nothing but junk, sleep on the same sheets until they were 18, and quit school in the 2nd grade. 

There is a reason God designed marriage the way He did.  It was for us... for us.  It's a pretty simple concept really, He did it for us.

Quote from: phoebe on Wed Jan 14, 2009 - 23:53:11
I don't know. It seems to me that if God wants us to live in mutual submission to each other, that's what we should do. To make one be the "head" seems an unfair burden of responsibility to one of the partners, and a bit of a cop-out on the part of the other. I don't say that to be offensive, but I suspect that is how it will be taken. I say it because that is the whole of the picture. Just because one wife was a dominating jerk doesn't mean that the next wife must be any less than a full and equal partner.

I was taught what chosenone practices, and would like to say "If it works...", but I cannot uphold it because, to me, it opposes God's design for all Christ-followers to live in full, mutual submission to each other, in and out of marriage. The idea that "if push comes to shove..." doesn't happen in a mutually submissive relationship, therefore, there is no need for one to have a higher position in leadership.

I guess I've said all I have to say on this.

In anything there is always a head. I cannot see why you ignore what God teaches in the Bibke about ther husband being the head of the marriage. I quoted all the verses ages ago on another topic where the Bible clearly says that a wife is to submit ot her huaband. How she does that is up to her and the two of them, BUT it is there none the less. As a wife it is not my place or right to be the head of the home.
If God says that we are to do that then it is up to me as a wife to try my best to obey God, becuase he says that everything we do  we are to do it for Him.
I am fortunate in that I am in a very good marriage, and we do care about  and love each other very much. It wou.d actually be easy for me to always get my own way, as my husband is so easy going and kind, but that would be very wrong for me as a Christian wife, becuase it is going against what God clearly says. Some of you here do seem to take the verses about mutual submission but ignore the ones about wives submitting to their husbands. You either accept them both or neither I think.

Quote from: WileyClarkson on Wed Jan 14, 2009 - 22:55:11
Posted by: chosenone

QuoteYes you are probably right in that we do talk and discuss everything, and my views are valued as much as his, but if push come  to shove . he is the head. If he feels that God is telling us to so something, or not do something or whatever, then I will go along with that.

Yes, you are willingly submitting to his decission.  Now put the shoe on the other foot.  Are there times when he willing submits to your views over his views and bases a decission on what you have said?  If you felt that something he said was going to be a total disaster to your family, that God was telling you to tell him "don't do it!", you and he discussed it, you told him why you were so adamantly against what he was planning, and even though he disagreed, he said he would not do that particular thing because you felt the consequences would be bad for the family, etc., would you say he was submitting to your will mutually in a joint decission?

If the answer is yes, then you are really more in a marriage as I believe God wants us to have based in both the NT and in the Garden as God made Adam and Eve for each other.

That situation has never arrisen for us but if it did, then I would go with my husband and trust God to sort it out if it was worng. My husband is responsible for his decisions and I am responsible for the way that I act towards him and God.This is something that I am learning more and more, that we can only be responsible for our actions and decisions, and for what we do in life.

Do I give up a new dress for myself so my children can have better school curriculum? Yes.
Do I give up a new sofa so my children can have a stay-at-home parent? Yes.
Do I give up a new car so my kids can have dance and piano lessons? Yes.
Do my kids give up time with their friends to spend time with their family on Friday nights? Yes.
Do my kids give up time with their friends to spend time with neighbors on Thurs. nights? Yes. Do my kids join their parents' church family on Sundays rather than their friends church? Yes.

This is mutual submission, parent-child mutual submission. This is biblical. It is respectful. It is yielding. It is honoring. It is loving. This is a way-of-living that they will take into their marriage relationships.

Biblical submission isn't a matter of "leadership". It's a matter of giving up self for the betterment of another. That's all it is. When two people work their relationships from this standpoint, no "head", no "leader" is necessary. When you read "head" in our English translations, the Greek word that Paul wrote was not "head" as "leader". DOES NOT MEAN LEADER. It means "source of life". Giving up my life for another's life. It is so hard to erase that traditional teaching from one's mind, but is absolutely necessary if one is to understand what Paul was saying about the relationship of a husband and wife, what biblical submission is. Jesus taught us what biblical submission is. He gave up His life for our betterment. No arguing or debating or pushing or shoving about it. He just knew it was better for us, so He yielded. That is the definition of submission, and it applies to every single Christ-follower, whether wife or husband.

Living a life in mutual submission is not a two-headed event. When two people get married, they become ONE. Paul reminds us of this in the very same paragraph that he tells us to live in mutual submission with each other. ONE, not two, so we aren't a two-headed monster, but two people working together as one for the good of the family unit.

It isn't about getting your own way. It's about living a life God's way.

Quote from: kensington on Thu Jan 15, 2009 - 02:59:04

Quote from: phoebe on Wed Jan 14, 2009 - 23:53:11
I don't know. It seems to me that if God wants us to live in mutual submission to each other, that's what we should do. To make one be the "head" seems an unfair burden of responsibility to one of the partners, and a bit of a cop-out on the part of the other. I don't say that to be offensive, but I suspect that is how it will be taken. I say it because that is the whole of the picture. Just because one wife was a dominating jerk doesn't mean that the next wife must be any less than a full and equal partner.

I was taught what chosenone practices, and would like to say "If it works...", but I cannot uphold it because, to me, it opposes God's design for all Christ-followers to live in full, mutual submission to each other, in and out of marriage. The idea that "if push comes to shove..." doesn't happen in a mutually submissive relationship, therefore, there is no need for one to have a higher position in leadership.

I guess I've said all I have to say on this.

Have you ever seen a two headed person?  It's a shockingly different sight.  They appear to be always pulling away from one another rather than working as one.   It happens, but that is not how God designed the human being to look.  Marriage is the same way.  If you have two heads, something is pulling against another.  We cannot speak to our children or others about leadership and authority when we do not submit to the one line of submission God gave us in our own lives.  God to Husband, to wife to children.  Do we allow our children to have mutual authority with us in their lives?  No... they would wear shorts in the snow and boots in the summer.  They would eat nothing but junk, sleep on the same sheets until they were 18, and quit school in the 2nd grade. 

There is a reason God designed marriage the way He did.  It was for us... for us.  It's a pretty simple concept really, He did it for us.

Kinsington, you've totally missed the point about how Paul uses the term "head" ...

Instead of reiterating what you've heard from others, and making misapplications of what we have argued on this thread--mabe go back and look at evidence given in prior post.  Sherman, Wiley, Phoebe and others have dealt with the text and application.  Below is one of my post that deals directly with "kephale" and contains a useful link.

post on pg. 4

If you're just speaking in terms of "authority", then to a Believer there is only ONE...the Lord Jesus Christ.  Believers are not to exercise "authority" (being a commander, giving orders, taking full responsibility and power) over each other, and that same "not" is just as true in the marriage relationship as it is true in the ekklesia.


Question;
Are you part of a church that has a Pastor who is recognized as "The Pastor" or "Senior Pastor"?  If so, is that man "the head of your church" and would he be the "head" of your husband (assuming you are married and you are female--which may be the wrong assumption on my part, but imagine it if you will)?  If you answer yes to the first two of my three questions, then you have a church with two heads...and one of those "heads" (using "head" in the same way that you have in your post) is competing with the authority of Christ.



V

First of all... It's Kensington.  Thanks.  Second of all, I did not reiterate what I have heard from others, I posted what I thought with my own brain to the post I read.  I was not speaking to you, so it doesn't concern you.  I know what I said and why I said it, and I don't need anyone here to explain it to me.  Thanks again.

I

Quote from: phoebe on Thu Jan 15, 2009 - 07:37:40
Do I give up a new dress for myself so my children can have better school curriculum? Yes.
Do I give up a new sofa so my children can have a stay-at-home parent? Yes.
Do I give up a new car so my kids can have dance and piano lessons? Yes.
Do my kids give up time with their friends to spend time with their family on Friday nights? Yes.
Do my kids give up time with their friends to spend time with neighbors on Thurs. nights? Yes. Do my kids join their parents' church family on Sundays rather than their friends church? Yes.

This is mutual submission, parent-child mutual submission. This is biblical. It is respectful. It is yielding. It is honoring. It is loving. This is a way-of-living that they will take into their marriage relationships.

Biblical submission isn't a matter of "leadership". It's a matter of giving up self for the betterment of another. That's all it is. When two people work their relationships from this standpoint, no "head", no "leader" is necessary. When you read "head" in our English translations, the Greek word that Paul wrote was not "head" as "leader". DOES NOT MEAN LEADER. It means "source of life". Giving up my life for another's life. It is so hard to erase that traditional teaching from one's mind, but is absolutely necessary if one is to understand what Paul was saying about the relationship of a husband and wife, what biblical submission is. Jesus taught us what biblical submission is. He gave up His life for our betterment. No arguing or debating or pushing or shoving about it. He just knew it was better for us, so He yielded. That is the definition of submission, and it applies to every single Christ-follower, whether wife or husband.

Living a life in mutual submission is not a two-headed event. When two people get married, they become ONE. Paul reminds us of this in the very same paragraph that he tells us to live in mutual submission with each other. ONE, not two, so we aren't a two-headed monster, but two people working together as one for the good of the family unit.

It isn't about getting your own way. It's about living a life God's way.

I disagree... I don't believe in "mutual" child/parent parenting.  I believe in parenting.   I know we become one, but one still has to lead in the bringing the two together as one.  You become one in marriage, but it takes work to become one in life and in living life.   To "Cleave" is to weave together to appear as one... 

Like taking two different colored clays and molding them together, and they become one large lump of clay.  From a distance, they appear to be one single lump of clay.  But, upclose you still see the VERY different colors, the complexities of individual color each has.  This takes time.  You don't JUST become one.  One must lead and be the example the other follows to blend the two different lives as one.  I never said that a two headed person was a monster...   I said they appear to be pulling one from another.  Struggling.  But, when a body has one head, and the rest of the body works in tune with that head, there is a fine line of perfect movement that is distinct and you can see it.  Yet, there is still shoulders and arms and legs, hands and feet...   it's not just one BIG head going down the road without the rest of the body moving along smoothly with it.  But, the head does the commanding to all of those body parts.  That has scientifically been proven without a doubt. It tells the feet to move so the whole body can take a walk. 

I'm not sure what all has been said here, I spoke to the issue of thinking that one is not over the other, that we are equals in the line to God. I do not believe we are. Sorry...  Yes, my husband considers my voice and my needs and our family in all choices for our marriage and home, He knows I have wisdom and he counts on that in his leading our whole family daily.  But, he also stands in line for responsibility to God, and I don't, so he leads where we should go after taking all things into consideration and prayer. 

Do my kids give up time with friends for family?  Yes, If I tell them to or ask them to with an explination as to why that is the better way to go.  Do they really have a choice while they are still young and I am responsible to God and my husband for training them?  No. I am the parent.

Quote from: kensington on Thu Jan 15, 2009 - 19:40:48
First of all... It's Kensington.  Thanks.  Second of all, I did not reiterate what I have heard from others, I posted what I thought with my own brain to the post I read.  I was not speaking to you, so it doesn't concern you.  I know what I said and why I said it, and I don't need anyone here to explain it to me.  Thanks again.

Thanks for correcting my spelling.

Yep, gotcha.  Two heads are better than one...


V

Quote from: kensington on Thu Jan 15, 2009 - 19:51:18
I

Quote from: phoebe on Thu Jan 15, 2009 - 07:37:40
Do I give up a new dress for myself so my children can have better school curriculum? Yes.
Do I give up a new sofa so my children can have a stay-at-home parent? Yes.
Do I give up a new car so my kids can have dance and piano lessons? Yes.
Do my kids give up time with their friends to spend time with their family on Friday nights? Yes.
Do my kids give up time with their friends to spend time with neighbors on Thurs. nights? Yes. Do my kids join their parents' church family on Sundays rather than their friends church? Yes.

This is mutual submission, parent-child mutual submission. This is biblical. It is respectful. It is yielding. It is honoring. It is loving. This is a way-of-living that they will take into their marriage relationships.

Biblical submission isn't a matter of "leadership". It's a matter of giving up self for the betterment of another. That's all it is. When two people work their relationships from this standpoint, no "head", no "leader" is necessary. When you read "head" in our English translations, the Greek word that Paul wrote was not "head" as "leader". DOES NOT MEAN LEADER. It means "source of life". Giving up my life for another's life. It is so hard to erase that traditional teaching from one's mind, but is absolutely necessary if one is to understand what Paul was saying about the relationship of a husband and wife, what biblical submission is. Jesus taught us what biblical submission is. He gave up His life for our betterment. No arguing or debating or pushing or shoving about it. He just knew it was better for us, so He yielded. That is the definition of submission, and it applies to every single Christ-follower, whether wife or husband.

Living a life in mutual submission is not a two-headed event. When two people get married, they become ONE. Paul reminds us of this in the very same paragraph that he tells us to live in mutual submission with each other. ONE, not two, so we aren't a two-headed monster, but two people working together as one for the good of the family unit.

It isn't about getting your own way. It's about living a life God's way.

I disagree... I don't believe in "mutual" child/parent parenting.  I believe in parenting.   I know we become one, but one still has to lead in the bringing the two together as one.  You become one in marriage, but it takes work to become one in life and in living life.   To "Cleave" is to weave together to appear as one... 

Like taking two different colored clays and molding them together, and they become one large lump of clay.  From a distance, they appear to be one single lump of clay.  But, upclose you still see the VERY different colors, the complexities of individual color each has.  This takes time.  You don't JUST become one.  One must lead and be the example the other follows to blend the two different lives as one.  I never said that a two headed person was a monster...   I said they appear to be pulling one from another.  Struggling.  But, when a body has one head, and the rest of the body works in tune with that head, there is a fine line of perfect movement that is distinct and you can see it.  Yet, there is still shoulders and arms and legs, hands and feet...   it's not just one BIG head going down the road without the rest of the body moving along smoothly with it.  But, the head does the commanding to all of those body parts.  That has scientifically been proven without a doubt. It tells the feet to move so the whole body can take a walk. 

I'm not sure what all has been said here, I spoke to the issue of thinking that one is not over the other, that we are equals in the line to God. I do not believe we are. Sorry...  Yes, my husband considers my voice and my needs and our family in all choices for our marriage and home, He knows I have wisdom and he counts on that in his leading our whole family daily.  But, he also stands in line for responsibility to God, and I don't, so he leads where we should go after taking all things into consideration and prayer. 

Do my kids give up time with friends for family?  Yes, If I tell them to or ask them to with an explination as to why that is the better way to go.  Do they really have a choice while they are still young and I am responsible to God and my husband for training them?  No. I am the parent.

Maybe when your kids are 17 and 20 you will take on a different perspective.

Quote from: phoebe on Thu Jan 15, 2009 - 22:34:13

Quote from: kensington on Thu Jan 15, 2009 - 19:51:18
I

Quote from: phoebe on Thu Jan 15, 2009 - 07:37:40
Do I give up a new dress for myself so my children can have better school curriculum? Yes.
Do I give up a new sofa so my children can have a stay-at-home parent? Yes.
Do I give up a new car so my kids can have dance and piano lessons? Yes.
Do my kids give up time with their friends to spend time with their family on Friday nights? Yes.
Do my kids give up time with their friends to spend time with neighbors on Thurs. nights? Yes. Do my kids join their parents' church family on Sundays rather than their friends church? Yes.

This is mutual submission, parent-child mutual submission. This is biblical. It is respectful. It is yielding. It is honoring. It is loving. This is a way-of-living that they will take into their marriage relationships.

Biblical submission isn't a matter of "leadership". It's a matter of giving up self for the betterment of another. That's all it is. When two people work their relationships from this standpoint, no "head", no "leader" is necessary. When you read "head" in our English translations, the Greek word that Paul wrote was not "head" as "leader". DOES NOT MEAN LEADER. It means "source of life". Giving up my life for another's life. It is so hard to erase that traditional teaching from one's mind, but is absolutely necessary if one is to understand what Paul was saying about the relationship of a husband and wife, what biblical submission is. Jesus taught us what biblical submission is. He gave up His life for our betterment. No arguing or debating or pushing or shoving about it. He just knew it was better for us, so He yielded. That is the definition of submission, and it applies to every single Christ-follower, whether wife or husband.

Living a life in mutual submission is not a two-headed event. When two people get married, they become ONE. Paul reminds us of this in the very same paragraph that he tells us to live in mutual submission with each other. ONE, not two, so we aren't a two-headed monster, but two people working together as one for the good of the family unit.

It isn't about getting your own way. It's about living a life God's way.

I disagree... I don't believe in "mutual" child/parent parenting.  I believe in parenting.   I know we become one, but one still has to lead in the bringing the two together as one.  You become one in marriage, but it takes work to become one in life and in living life.   To "Cleave" is to weave together to appear as one... 

Like taking two different colored clays and molding them together, and they become one large lump of clay.  From a distance, they appear to be one single lump of clay.  But, upclose you still see the VERY different colors, the complexities of individual color each has.  This takes time.  You don't JUST become one.  One must lead and be the example the other follows to blend the two different lives as one.  I never said that a two headed person was a monster...   I said they appear to be pulling one from another.  Struggling.  But, when a body has one head, and the rest of the body works in tune with that head, there is a fine line of perfect movement that is distinct and you can see it.  Yet, there is still shoulders and arms and legs, hands and feet...   it's not just one BIG head going down the road without the rest of the body moving along smoothly with it.  But, the head does the commanding to all of those body parts.  That has scientifically been proven without a doubt. It tells the feet to move so the whole body can take a walk. 

I'm not sure what all has been said here, I spoke to the issue of thinking that one is not over the other, that we are equals in the line to God. I do not believe we are. Sorry...  Yes, my husband considers my voice and my needs and our family in all choices for our marriage and home, He knows I have wisdom and he counts on that in his leading our whole family daily.  But, he also stands in line for responsibility to God, and I don't, so he leads where we should go after taking all things into consideration and prayer. 

Do my kids give up time with friends for family?  Yes, If I tell them to or ask them to with an explination as to why that is the better way to go.  Do they really have a choice while they are still young and I am responsible to God and my husband for training them?  No. I am the parent.

Maybe when your kids are 17 and 20 you will take on a different perspective.

That's very funny Pheobe.... My kids are 34, 33, 26, 24, 19, 17, and 15.  I think I do have the perspective I am going to have.  Six boys and one girl... and I'm the parent.  I parented my olders kids and they now live strong independent lives with understanding of how marriage should be and they are presenting that in parenting to their own kids... I have 5 grandkids...  4 boys and 1 girls.  God have given me boys to raise to be Godly men. Leaders, Heads of the household.  I took that ministry VERY seriously.  And I am teaching my grandkids about the LORD and what His word says also. Teaching them to worship, to obey and submit to their parents and to me when I am in authority over them.  There is a pool in our back yard, it's for them, it's there for them, but they do not decide the conditions in which they use it or when.  They come to me for instruction on that.  Instruction I got from my husband, the leader who knows exactly how it is to be taken care of. 

Our family has MANY members, but only one head when it comes to this household.  Our family all submit to that when they come here also, as does their children, if they don't want to do that, they do not belong here.  I doubt my perspective will change... really I do.

kensington I agree with you totally (in fact we do actually seem to be on the same wavelength on most thing actually) in that parenting isnt a mutually submissive thing.
Children are told to obey their parents in the lord.
MY kids are aged 30, 28 and 23.(two girls and a boy) I hope that I have been a good mum(they tell me that I have), through very difficult circumstances, and they have all turned out to be lovely young people. They are kind, polite, thoughtful and have a brilliant sense of humour! Now they are grown I have a brilliant relationship with them as does their step father (my husband)

However I was the Parent and they were the children. It was my job to give them boundaries and rules and to teach them the difference between right and wrong. Parenthood is never meant to be mutually submissive, that just isnt in the Bible at all, but as with the husband being the head of the home, the parents are the head of the children, in a loving but right way. All that the husband does as the head is for the good of the family in his love for them, and all that the parents do as the parents is for the good of the children in their love for them. 

Well done for bring up all of those kids, I found three quite enough for me, although I do have two step sons also.

kensington and chosenone - You totally misunderstand mutual submission in the parent-child relationship, and that is no surprise as you seem to misunderstand biblical mutual submission as it applies to all Christ-followers.

I don't need to defend my parenting to either of you. My kids are top-notch, loving, giving, serving followers of Christ.

Quote from: phoebe on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 08:57:40
kensington and chosenone - You totally misunderstand mutual submission in the parent-child relationship, and that is no surprise as you seem to misunderstand biblical mutual submission as it applies to all Christ-followers.

I don't need to defend my parenting to either of you. My kids are top-notch, loving, giving, serving followers of Christ.

Um, no one asked you to defend your parenting. You do seem to like the mutual submission part though but seem to want to ignore the submitting to your husband part. Why is that?. You cant believe one part and not the other can you?
The mutual submission is talking to all believers generally, but the instructions specifically to wives is to be in submission to the husband. I cant see why one is for us but not the other.
There are general teachings in the Bible for all believers, and specific ones for  husbands, and wives and the unmarried and widows children and others. Why is it right for us to obey the ones for believers generally but not the ones for those that apply to us as wives for example. I just dont understand that at all.We either take them all on board or none of them, We arent suposed to just pick and choose the ones that we like are we?

Quote from: chosenone on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 09:39:18

Quote from: phoebe on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 08:57:40
kensington and chosenone - You totally misunderstand mutual submission in the parent-child relationship, and that is no surprise as you seem to misunderstand biblical mutual submission as it applies to all Christ-followers.

I don't need to defend my parenting to either of you. My kids are top-notch, loving, giving, serving followers of Christ.

Um, no one asked you to defend your parenting. You do seem to like the mutual submission part though but seem to want to ignore the submitting to your husband part. Why is that?. You cant believe one part and not the other can you?
The mutual submission is talking to all believers generally, but the instructions specifically to wives is to be in submission to the husband. I cant see why one is for us but not the other.
There are general teachings in the Bible for all believers, and specific ones for  husbands, and wives and the unmarried and widows children and others. Why is it right for us to obey the ones for believers generally but not the ones for those that apply to us as wives for example. I just dont understand that at all.We either take them all on board or none of them, We arent suposed to just pick and choose the ones that we like are we?

No, you are correct. No one asked me to defend my parenting. I think I was just supposed to sit back silently while it was being attacked in an implied way.

If I am reading "mutual submission", I am definitely seeing "submission". But I see it as a whole, as it applies in a relationship, in all relationships, as a Christ-centered relationship. From my POV, it is those who choose a male-leader relationship as picking-and-choosing. From my studies over the past 10+ years, I do not see that the man was given anything over the woman in the way of authority or leadership. I only see that they are equal, while different, partners.

If you are happy in a hierarchy relationship, that's great. But it isn't the biblical model.

Quote from: phoebe on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 10:21:42

Quote from: chosenone on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 09:39:18

Quote from: phoebe on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 08:57:40
kensington and chosenone - You totally misunderstand mutual submission in the parent-child relationship, and that is no surprise as you seem to misunderstand biblical mutual submission as it applies to all Christ-followers.

I don't need to defend my parenting to either of you. My kids are top-notch, loving, giving, serving followers of Christ.

Um, no one asked you to defend your parenting. You do seem to like the mutual submission part though but seem to want to ignore the submitting to your husband part. Why is that?. You cant believe one part and not the other can you?
The mutual submission is talking to all believers generally, but the instructions specifically to wives is to be in submission to the husband. I cant see why one is for us but not the other.
There are general teachings in the Bible for all believers, and specific ones for  husbands, and wives and the unmarried and widows children and others. Why is it right for us to obey the ones for believers generally but not the ones for those that apply to us as wives for example. I just dont understand that at all.We either take them all on board or none of them, We arent suposed to just pick and choose the ones that we like are we?

No, you are correct. No one asked me to defend my parenting. I think I was just supposed to sit back silently while it was being attacked in an implied way.

If I am reading "mutual submission", I am definitely seeing "submission". But I see it as a whole, as it applies in a relationship, in all relationships, as a Christ-centered relationship. From my POV, it is those who choose a male-leader relationship as picking-and-choosing. From my studies over the past 10+ years, I do not see that the man was given anything over the woman in the way of authority or leadership. I only see that they are equal, while different, partners.

If you are happy in a hierarchy relationship, that's great. But it isn't the biblical model.

Sorry Phoebe but it was you that told kensington that she would understand when her children were the age that yours were, you were not attacked at all. You are very prickly indeed.
I havent chosen  a man or a marriage that is any particular way BUT,we both try go by what the bible clearly says about the husband being the head. It is nothing to do with what each of us WANT, but it is obeying what God has TOLD us to do, and that is different entirely.My husband is incredibly laid back and the most patient kind person that I have ever met, but he takes his position very seriously and so do I. I respect him and trust him 100% so I never worry about what he may or may not do.   

You say the word 'heirachy' relationship as if it is some sort of swear word, on the contrary it is what we have been told to do.by the Bibles teachings. Wives are told thay are to respect their husbands and they are to submit to them as the head. How it can be taken any other way I just cant see. I may not like it, you and many other women may not like it, but it is there none the less and we need to decide whether we do what we want or what God wants. The decision is up to each of us.

Quote from: emilylauren on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 13:10:32
If you read 1 Corinthians carefully, you'll see that Paul not only tells the wife to "respect" and "obey" her husband, but also for her husband to "love" and "serve" his wife. Jesus came to serve, not to be served-- therefore the husband should be there to serve his wife and not to be served by her. In this way, Paul is indirectly teaching a mutually submissive marriage. The fact is that no two marriages are going to work the same way, because everyone is  different and the way people work together is going to be different. The husband and wife need to work out how their relationship will work, and in doing so they must keep their mutually submissive mindset. That is, the wife is working towards what her husband wants while he is working towards what his wife wants. 

If that means ultimatly allowing the husband to have the final authority-- then go for it! If it works for you, don't change. But there are other relationships where the husband and wife have different dividends of "power" or "authority". Ultimatly, a marriage shouldn't be a power struggle over who gets to decide what, but rather it should be two people working towards making the other happy.

A very good post and I agree with most of it but that still deosnt get away from the fact that the man is to be the head. I may PREFER  it if I got the final say(and I am sure than many women would) but in obedience to God I dont do that. 

Quote from: phoebe on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 10:21:42

Quote from: chosenone on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 09:39:18

Quote from: phoebe on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 08:57:40
kensington and chosenone - You totally misunderstand mutual submission in the parent-child relationship, and that is no surprise as you seem to misunderstand biblical mutual submission as it applies to all Christ-followers.

I don't need to defend my parenting to either of you. My kids are top-notch, loving, giving, serving followers of Christ.

Um, no one asked you to defend your parenting. You do seem to like the mutual submission part though but seem to want to ignore the submitting to your husband part. Why is that?. You cant believe one part and not the other can you?
The mutual submission is talking to all believers generally, but the instructions specifically to wives is to be in submission to the husband. I cant see why one is for us but not the other.
There are general teachings in the Bible for all believers, and specific ones for  husbands, and wives and the unmarried and widows children and others. Why is it right for us to obey the ones for believers generally but not the ones for those that apply to us as wives for example. I just dont understand that at all.We either take them all on board or none of them, We arent suposed to just pick and choose the ones that we like are we?

No, you are correct. No one asked me to defend my parenting. I think I was just supposed to sit back silently while it was being attacked in an implied way.

If I am reading "mutual submission", I am definitely seeing "submission". But I see it as a whole, as it applies in a relationship, in all relationships, as a Christ-centered relationship. From my POV, it is those who choose a male-leader relationship as picking-and-choosing. From my studies over the past 10+ years, I do not see that the man was given anything over the woman in the way of authority or leadership. I only see that they are equal, while different, partners.

If you are happy in a hierarchy relationship, that's great. But it isn't the biblical model.

Phoebe,

My exact point on the prior page.  But, hey, you know me...I kaint spelk.  ;o)


Chosenone and Kensington (whew! I double checked the spelling...there's one person on this board that always mispells my moniker, but who could not love him?), I'm sure that Phoebe is sincerely glad that your children and your marriages have been an exhibition of the abundant grace of God.  I'm glad also.  Really.  Wiley's glad too...didn't he say something like, "If it ain't broke don't fix it"?

However, I find it problematic to assume that an interpretation of the Bible must be correct because the application of the interpretation is apparently "successful".   That is a "utilitarian" argument...sometimes it's right, oftentimes it isn't.  The OT history of Israel demonstrates this fallacy over and over.

As I see it, the biggest element in the difference of understanding in this discussion has to do with what "submission" means. 


Well, there I go again...buttin' into a "private" discussion on a public thread...


V

The man being the "head" over the wife is certainly "Descriptive" (the way things were/are) of the biblical text and 1st century culture for both Jews and Gentiles.  However is the headship of man "Prescriptive" (the way things should be).  Frankly, I believe the headship of man is "Descriptive" and not "Prescriptive".  

Teamwork, partnership, equality, mutal submission is the divine ideal, the way things should be, the goal we should work towards, the ideal we should strive for, how we should teach our children to live together.  This is especially true in Western cultures where Gender Equality is an assumed value, a foundational cultural paradigm!

I have 4 children, 3 sons and 1 daughter; and I'm teaching them all that the divine ideal for marriage is the egalitarian model, partnership.  This is especially true for my daughter whom I am teaching to be strong and independant, to expect to be treated right and to treat others right.  In fact, in personal development one grows from dependance (childish) to independance (adolescence) to interdependance (maturity). In order for one to be mature and interdepedant, one must first be independant.

Quote from: Sherman Nobles on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 13:48:49
The man being the "head" over the wife is certainly "Descriptive" (the way things were/are) of the biblical text and 1st century culture for both Jews and Gentiles.  However is the headship of man "Prescriptive" (the way things should be).  Frankly, I believe the headship of man is "Descriptive" and not "Prescriptive".  

Teamwork, partnership, equality, mutal submission is the divine ideal, the way things should be, the goal we should work towards, the ideal we should strive for, how we should teach our children to live together.  This is especially true in Western cultures where Gender Equality is an assumed value, a foundational cultural paradigm!

I have 4 children, 3 sons and 1 daughter; and I'm teaching them all that the divine ideal for marriage is the egalitarian model, partnership.  This is especially true for my daughter whom I am teaching to be strong and independent, to expect to be treated right and to treat others right.  In fact, in personal development one grows from dependance (childish) to independance (adolescence) to interdependance (maturity). In order for one to be mature and interdepedant, one must first be independent.

QuoteIn fact, in personal development one grows from dependance (childish) to independance (adolescence) to interdependance (maturity).

DANG IT SHERMAN!!  You've spoken from the Spirit.  Prophetic.

It's only been quite recently that I've come to understand that maturing in Faith means that I become MORE dependant upon God and MORE interdependant with other Believers -- not to mention more interdependant with my wife.


V

Quote from: phoebe on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 08:57:40
kensington and chosenone - You totally misunderstand mutual submission in the parent-child relationship, and that is no surprise as you seem to misunderstand biblical mutual submission as it applies to all Christ-followers.

I don't need to defend my parenting to either of you. My kids are top-notch, loving, giving, serving followers of Christ.

I believe the comment that brought on defending was the one you made to me... that WHEN my kids got to be where your kids are, I will learn what you think.

I did not attack you or your marriage in any way.  Or your kids in any way either.   That is a false implication.  I stated my opinion to the topic.  It is different than yours.  I'm not going to sit and list kid for kid accomplishments for you either.  Moot point.
Your "hierarchy" comments are not any better than your "Kids" comment either.  My husband is not the ruler, He is the lead.  He takes the time to search out where he should lead us in all areas, and seeks the LORD to guide him in leading our family as a Christian family.  Why wouldn't I submit to that?  If he is lining himself up with leadership the way the LORD spoke it and Paul taught it, why would I need to make sure that I get that position or name of "Mutual leader" with him?  It would be a moot point.  He gets on his face before the LORD and seeks out the answers and of course he considers what I think or need or ask...   But, in every marriage there is going to be a decision that must be made for the future of the family, and if the two have different ideas as to what they should do, someone has to make that final choice.  That would be my husband.  He is not a dictator, he is a leader, he seeks to make sure that he is always leading us where we need to be.  He strives for that. 

I'm sorry that offends you personally, I don't see why it would.  I'm not offended that you choose the two headed path.  It's your marriage.  Please stop sniping at me now.

"Anyway, that really got away from me. One thing I wanted to bring up again, because I feel like it has been passed over and I just wanted to see other people's opinions on it was this passage: For man indeed ought not to have the head veiled, being the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man. (1 Corinthians 11:7) This verse seems to say that man is the image and glory of God while woman is the image and glory of man... which far from just putting a wife "under" her husband also seems to put her "under" ALL men. I'm struggling to interpret this in light of Jesus' own actions regarding women (allowing them to sit right at His feet-- a very promenint position) when He was teaching, appearing before women when He first returned from the dead, ect. I may create an entire thread just for this topic (head coverings), because I think it might be something worth debating and looking deeper into. But if you know that a thread is already available, I would love to know! :]"

I don't see how you get that a wife being under her husband, puts her under all men.  Not at all...   God deals with us individually, He was speaking to a husband and wife situation.... not in their relation to anyone else, no other group or people.  The man first relates to God, as Adam did, and his covering that comes from God extends to include his wife. 

As to the veil, in the day that this was written, women wore veils, and the way they wore them denoted as to whether they were single, sitll under the covering of the father, or married and under the covering of the husband.  Today, we wear wedding rings to denote being married. But, on the day Jesus died the veils came down in the Holy of Holies and now our covering that allows us to come into the presence of the LORD is the Blood of Jesus. 

The instruction to marriage and leadership, love, respect for one another, have not changed.  It's still God to male, male to woman in the marriage situation.  But, one on one we can come before the LORD knowing our covering is the LORD.  We do not have to sit on the other side of the temple and wait until we get home to learn, we can learn freely from the word and have our personal relationship with the LORD.

I am subject to my husband's authority in this marriage, and our home.  But, no that does not mean I am subject to any other man in this life.  I agreed at the altar to honor my husband and as my service to God...   that included no other man. 

The word says.... Wives are to submit thier husband, (as unto the LORD)  That means to serve, complete trust ... and Men are to lay down their lives for the marriage or the wife whom he loves.

That is exactly how I see marriage and the model we strive for.  I submit to his leadership as unto the LORD... The LORD called me to do that, NO MAN made me do that.  Sheesh...  and my husband, puts all things behind being a husband and a father.  To the very laying down of his life.  He takes no "dictatorship" out of his situation, he sees himself as the one who is called to be all things, do all things, lay down all things for our family.  He is the first one to give up something he likes so that someone in our family can have what they need or to bless them.  He is the one up and out the door laying down his life to work and provide. He is a leader in that area,  our boys can follow and be husbands knowing that he lead the way to showing them how to sacrifice and toil to provide.  And two of them already have.  That is all it is, that one knows and understands submission, and leadership.  It isn't a threat after that.  Not to me.  Peace.

I believe that God instituted marrige so that the church might get a picture of what it means to be the bride of Christ.

Quote from: Hobbit on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 15:14:21
I believe that God instituted marrige so that the church might get a picture of what it means to be the bride of Christ.

Good point and of course we are all under Christs headship and surely no one would say otherwise.

Hobbit I agree.... I think that is why He related it all to leadership, submission, coverings, trust, sacrifice, all of it.   If we can't do it in our marriages, what makes us think we are ready for eternity with Him.  Learning submission in my marriage has taught me so much about being in tune with the voice of the LORD, and to be in trust instantly that all things are in His hands, through my husband to me.  He has given me to the freedom to be able to say "Whatever you decided honey is fine with me, your the husband"....  I couldn't even do that with my dad or a pastor until I began to try to do it for the LORD... and I had to take small steps to understand the "submit" part has nothing do to with anything bad.

Quote from: emilylauren on Fri Jan 16, 2009 - 15:20:49

QuoteI don't see how you get that a wife being under her husband, puts her under all men.  Not at all...   God deals with us individually, He was speaking to a husband and wife situation.... not in their relation to anyone else, no other group or people.  The man first relates to God, as Adam did, and his covering that comes from God extends to include his wife. 

But in this situation Paul is writing about women wearing veils, not just because they are married, but because they are praying. :/ The woman "glorified" the man, so she had to "cover" her glory, but the man "glorified" God, so he must be uncovered. The way it was written it implied that women in general were under men, in general.

The veil meant they were under a covering, a leadership, either their father or their husband, closest male relative ... not just all men.  But the man that God appointed over them.  To be under a covering doesn't mean to be less than, or a mat.  It meant in a time when women had no voice, (because all things pertaining to the temple had to do with men),  there was a man appointed by God to speak for her. 

Quote" In fact, in personal development one grows from dependance (childish) to independance (adolescence) to interdependance (maturity)."

BINGO!!!!!

What we have modeled in the hierarchy is the dependent-independent combined model. This is not the model of interdependence of God's design, nor the model Jesus talks about when He reminds us that we are "no longer two, but one", nor the picture Paul paints of mutual submission.

It's so biblical, and the design works so beautifully that I don't understand the resistance to it.