Christian Forums

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 12:01:42

Quote from: HeRestoresMyHeart on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 11:28:28

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 09:26:30

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 09:14:16

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 05:49:06
We are to forgive those who trespass against us, correct ?

How does one who is murdered , forgive that person who murdered them ?

Use scripture if you are going to reply to the question please.

their family can forgive him. Jesus forgives us even if the person that we sinned against doesnt or cant. For example if someone is unfaithful to their spouse, and if later they are truly repentant, they are forgiven,even if their spouse cannot. Our salvation doesnt depend on whether man forgives us but whether God does

Try and understand, that if you forgive someone it will be forgiven of you as well.  Our forgiveness of others is up to the individual who has had a trespass against us.   The one who trespassed against us, needs to ask for forgivenss as well, for their own lives.

So how does the one who was murdered forgive the one who murdered them ?

Forgiveness by one who was trespassed against is not for the trespasser, it is for the one who was the victim so to speak-  unforgivness by humans does not hurt the sinner it hurts the one sinned against- therefore it is for the benefit/detriment of the one who is or is not doing the forgiving.

I am sure there are quite a few of us who have not been forgiven by others for various things and reasons yet we still have repented before God for our sins and received His forgiveness which is where our salvation lies-  yet many who have not forgiven a trespass against them are walking around in anger and/or bitterness, hence unforgivness hurting the one refusing to forgive as opposed to the one not forgiven by that person!  Human forgiveness does not provide salvation, nor does human unforgiveness prevent another from being saved- only God can do that!

Also if one was murdered without opportunity to forgive (obviously) then they also had no chance to hold any malice in their hearts toward the murderer, therefore if they died knowing God they have nothing to worry about!

Yes, I would say that the murdered person is "obviously" not going to give out forgiveness.  LOL

But it is not about the one murdered.  It is about the murderer.

like I said the murderer only needs God's forgiveness, so they need to repent before Him and if they don't well then they don't have it do they!

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 12:04:27

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 11:07:53

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 09:26:30

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 09:14:16

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 05:49:06
We are to forgive those who trespass against us, correct ?

How does one who is murdered , forgive that person who murdered them ?

Use scripture if you are going to reply to the question please.

their family can forgive him. Jesus forgives us even if the person that we sinned against doesnt or cant. For example if someone is unfaithful to their spouse, and if later they are truly repentant, they are forgiven,even if their spouse cannot. Our salvation doesnt depend on whether man forgives us but whether God does

Try and understand, that if you forgive someone it will be forgiven of you as well.  Our forgiveness of others is up to the individual who has had a trespass against us.   The one who trespassed against us, needs to ask for forgivenss as well, for their own lives.

So how does the one who was murdered forgive the one who murdered them ?

It is Gods forgiveness that we need not mans forgiveness. If I sin against someone and they refuse to forgive me if I repent, that is their sin. We are told to forgive others, but we cannot make anyone forgive. If we come to Jesus truly repentant, is is HE who forgives. What if we sin against some one who dies. Are you saying that we cannot be forgiven becauase that person had since died?

Excuse me for saying this.  But you are not listening to what I have been asking.

How does the one who was murdered forgive the one who murdered them ?

Actually I saw everything you wrote and believe I answered quite clearly-  however I believe you may be confusing yourself, as in your previous post you wrote : 

"Yes, I would say that the murdered person is "obviously" not going to give out forgiveness.  LOL

But it is not about the one murdered.  It is about the murderer."

Yet above you are bringing it back to the murdere(d) one forgiving, therefore making it about that!  In my above post, I have addressed it in my answer from both sides.

If he committed that murder in AZ, TX or FL, he's gonna need a lot more than just God's forgiveness.  

Quote from: OneLung on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 12:09:38
If he committed that murder in AZ, TX or FL, he's gonna need a lot more than just God's forgiveness.  

If he committed it in FL, its a safe bet that no one will ever know who he is besides God!

Quote from: HeRestoresMyHeart on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 12:04:38

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 12:01:42

Quote from: HeRestoresMyHeart on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 11:28:28

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 09:26:30

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 09:14:16

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 05:49:06
We are to forgive those who trespass against us, correct ?

How does one who is murdered , forgive that person who murdered them ?

Use scripture if you are going to reply to the question please.

their family can forgive him. Jesus forgives us even if the person that we sinned against doesnt or cant. For example if someone is unfaithful to their spouse, and if later they are truly repentant, they are forgiven,even if their spouse cannot. Our salvation doesnt depend on whether man forgives us but whether God does

Try and understand, that if you forgive someone it will be forgiven of you as well.  Our forgiveness of others is up to the individual who has had a trespass against us.   The one who trespassed against us, needs to ask for forgivenss as well, for their own lives.

So how does the one who was murdered forgive the one who murdered them ?

Forgiveness by one who was trespassed against is not for the trespasser, it is for the one who was the victim so to speak-  unforgivness by humans does not hurt the sinner it hurts the one sinned against- therefore it is for the benefit/detriment of the one who is or is not doing the forgiving.

I am sure there are quite a few of us who have not been forgiven by others for various things and reasons yet we still have repented before God for our sins and received His forgiveness which is where our salvation lies-  yet many who have not forgiven a trespass against them are walking around in anger and/or bitterness, hence unforgivness hurting the one refusing to forgive as opposed to the one not forgiven by that person!  Human forgiveness does not provide salvation, nor does human unforgiveness prevent another from being saved- only God can do that!

Also if one was murdered without opportunity to forgive (obviously) then they also had no chance to hold any malice in their hearts toward the murderer, therefore if they died knowing God they have nothing to worry about!

Yes, I would say that the murdered person is "obviously" not going to give out forgiveness.  LOL

But it is not about the one murdered.  It is about the murderer.

like I said the murderer only needs God's forgiveness, so they need to repent before Him and if they don't well then they don't have it do they!

Your missing the point as well as Chosenone.

How does the murdered person forgive the one who murdered him ?

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 12:01:42

Quote from: HeRestoresMyHeart on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 11:28:28

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 09:26:30

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 09:14:16

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 05:49:06
We are to forgive those who trespass against us, correct ?

How does one who is murdered , forgive that person who murdered them ?

Use scripture if you are going to reply to the question please.

their family can forgive him. Jesus forgives us even if the person that we sinned against doesnt or cant. For example if someone is unfaithful to their spouse, and if later they are truly repentant, they are forgiven,even if their spouse cannot. Our salvation doesnt depend on whether man forgives us but whether God does

Try and understand, that if you forgive someone it will be forgiven of you as well.  Our forgiveness of others is up to the individual who has had a trespass against us.   The one who trespassed against us, needs to ask for forgivenss as well, for their own lives.

So how does the one who was murdered forgive the one who murdered them ?

Forgiveness by one who was trespassed against is not for the trespasser, it is for the one who was the victim so to speak-  unforgivness by humans does not hurt the sinner it hurts the one sinned against- therefore it is for the benefit/detriment of the one who is or is not doing the forgiving.

I am sure there are quite a few of us who have not been forgiven by others for various things and reasons yet we still have repented before God for our sins and received His forgiveness which is where our salvation lies-  yet many who have not forgiven a trespass against them are walking around in anger and/or bitterness, hence unforgivness hurting the one refusing to forgive as opposed to the one not forgiven by that person!  Human forgiveness does not provide salvation, nor does human unforgiveness prevent another from being saved- only God can do that!

Also if one was murdered without opportunity to forgive (obviously) then they also had no chance to hold any malice in their hearts toward the murderer, therefore if they died knowing God they have nothing to worry about!

Yes, I would say that the murdered person is "obviously" not going to give out forgiveness.  LOL

But it is not about the one murdered.  It is about the murderer.

Welll, speaking for myself mysteryman we will have to agree to disagree, becuase David planned Uriahs murder, it wasnt an act of self defence or accidental death. He thought about it, planned it and decided to do it even though he knew in his heart that it was wrong.
Also I know that murderers can and are forgiven even though the victim cannot forgive. Any sin can be forgiven except blaspheny against the Holy Spirit. No sin is too horrible for Jesus to cover if the one who did it truly repents.
Who knows even the man next to Jesus on the cross may have murdered others and he was forgiven. 

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 12:24:22

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 12:01:42

Quote from: HeRestoresMyHeart on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 11:28:28

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 09:26:30

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 09:14:16

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 05:49:06
We are to forgive those who trespass against us, correct ?

How does one who is murdered , forgive that person who murdered them ?

Use scripture if you are going to reply to the question please.

their family can forgive him. Jesus forgives us even if the person that we sinned against doesnt or cant. For example if someone is unfaithful to their spouse, and if later they are truly repentant, they are forgiven,even if their spouse cannot. Our salvation doesnt depend on whether man forgives us but whether God does

Try and understand, that if you forgive someone it will be forgiven of you as well.  Our forgiveness of others is up to the individual who has had a trespass against us.   The one who trespassed against us, needs to ask for forgivenss as well, for their own lives.

So how does the one who was murdered forgive the one who murdered them ?

Forgiveness by one who was trespassed against is not for the trespasser, it is for the one who was the victim so to speak-  unforgivness by humans does not hurt the sinner it hurts the one sinned against- therefore it is for the benefit/detriment of the one who is or is not doing the forgiving.

I am sure there are quite a few of us who have not been forgiven by others for various things and reasons yet we still have repented before God for our sins and received His forgiveness which is where our salvation lies-  yet many who have not forgiven a trespass against them are walking around in anger and/or bitterness, hence unforgivness hurting the one refusing to forgive as opposed to the one not forgiven by that person!  Human forgiveness does not provide salvation, nor does human unforgiveness prevent another from being saved- only God can do that!

Also if one was murdered without opportunity to forgive (obviously) then they also had no chance to hold any malice in their hearts toward the murderer, therefore if they died knowing God they have nothing to worry about!

Yes, I would say that the murdered person is "obviously" not going to give out forgiveness.  LOL

But it is not about the one murdered.  It is about the murderer.

Welll, speaking for myself mysteryman we will have to agree to disagree, becuase David planned Uriahs murder, it wasnt an act of self defence or accidental death. He thought about it, planned it and decided to do it even though he knew in his heart that it was wrong.
Also I know that murderers can and are forgiven even though the victim cannot forgive. Any sin can be forgiven except blaspheny against the Holy Spirit. No sin is too horrible for Jesus to cover if the one who did it truly repents.
Who knows even the man next to Jesus on the cross may have murdered others and he was forgiven. 

To blaspheme against the Holy Spirit is a sin against God.  God can not forgive you of this sin, and he will not forgive you of this sin.

To murder is a sin against the person whom you murdered.  If you sin in the OT under the law, God asked that they compensate for their sin against that person.  If the person you trespass against, forgives you, God still asked that they return that which was taken.   For certain sins, you could be put to death for those sins.  In the ten commandments , there are only two commandments that are unforgivable.  Idolatry and murder.  And God dealt with these two commandments in the most severe way, including taking their names out of the book of life.

The two commandments we now are to live by are  in direct relatinship to those two commandments.  To love God and to love our neighbor.   If you hate your brother you commit murder.  And no murderer hath any eternal life abiding in him.

The one murdered can not forgive the one who murdered that person.  And God can not forgive the one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit.  Because both "can not" forgive, forgivness is not given.

God can forgive murder, just as he can forgive rape, abuse, stealing, adultery, or any other sin that we committ against anyone else whether they forgive us or not. It doesnt matter whether the person that we hurt forgives us or not, that is their choice, but you are saying that Jesus died for everyone except those who have killed someone(including david by the way). No where does it say that murder or killing can not be forgiven by what Jesus did. The ONLY sin that the Bible tells us that cant be forgiven by Jesus death is the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. You are saying that what Jesus did isnt enough to forgive some sins and that isnt Biblical. NOTHING is too awful for his blood to wash us free from. Even if Hitler had TRULY repented on his death bed, he would have been forgiven.

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 12:43:49
The one murdered can not forgive the one who murdered that person.  And God can not forgive the one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit.  Because both "can not" forgive, forgivness is not given.

Either you are wrong or the Bible contradicts itself. The Word says that if you commit one sin you have committed them all. If you have stolen, you have murdered. Sin is sin. By your theology, any sin is therefore unforgivable which is contrary to the Word. So either you are wrong or the Word is wrong.

I don't see why this is so complicated. You can preach all you want about murder being unforgivable...doesn't change the Word though.

Also, it is entirely possible to be forgiven by the Lord and not by man. What if you hurt someone and wanted their forgiveness but could not find them? You've repented to the Lord but are still un-forgiven by man.

Quote from: fanuvmxpx on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 13:40:42

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 12:43:49
The one murdered can not forgive the one who murdered that person.  And God can not forgive the one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit.  Because both "can not" forgive, forgivness is not given.

Either you are wrong or the Bible contradicts itself. The Word says that if you commit one sin you have committed them all. If you have stolen, you have murdered. Sin is sin. By your theology, any sin is therefore unforgivable which is contrary to the Word. So either you are wrong or the Word is wrong.

I don't see why this is so complicated. You can preach all you want about murder being unforgivable...doesn't change the Word though.

Agreed. no where does it say that murder is an unforgivable sin. Many murderers have come to Christ and been forgiven.

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 12:54:09
God can forgive murder, just as he can forgive rape, abuse, stealing, adultery, or any other sin that we committ against anyone else whether they forgive us or not. It doesnt matter whether the person that we hurt forgives us or not, that is their choice, but you are saying that Jesus died for everyone except those who have killed someone(including david by the way). No where does it say that murder or killing can not be forgiven by what Jesus did. The ONLY sin that the Bible tells us that cant be forgiven by Jesus death is the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. You are saying that what Jesus did isnt enough to forgive some sins and that isnt Biblical. NOTHING is too awful for his blood to wash us free from. Even if Hitler had TRULY repented on his death bed, he would have been forgiven.

Well it is obvious that you are unwilling to look at this from a logical point of view.

King David didn't murder, so he can be forgiven.  But because it is impossible for a murdered person to forgive, it is impossible for forgiveness.   And I John 3:15 still speaks volumes of the truth.

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:00:48
Well it is obvious that you are unwilling to look at this from a logical point of view.

King David didn't murder, so he can be forgiven.  But because it is impossible for a murdered person to forgive, it is impossible for forgiveness.   And I John 3:15 still speaks volumes of the truth.

Your logic is destroyed by fallacy...

Either you are wrong or the Bible contradicts itself. The Word says that if you commit one sin you have committed them all. If you have stolen, you have murdered. Sin is sin. By your theology, any sin is therefore unforgivable which is contrary to the Word. So either you are wrong or the Word is wrong.

I don't see why this is so complicated. You can preach all you want about murder being unforgivable...doesn't change the Word though.

Also, it is entirely possible to be forgiven by the Lord and not by man. What if you hurt someone and wanted their forgiveness but could not find them? You've repented to the Lord but are still un-forgiven by man

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 13:44:23

Quote from: fanuvmxpx on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 13:40:42

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 12:43:49
The one murdered can not forgive the one who murdered that person.  And God can not forgive the one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit.  Because both "can not" forgive, forgivness is not given.

Either you are wrong or the Bible contradicts itself. The Word says that if you commit one sin you have committed them all. If you have stolen, you have murdered. Sin is sin. By your theology, any sin is therefore unforgivable which is contrary to the Word. So either you are wrong or the Word is wrong.

I don't see why this is so complicated. You can preach all you want about murder being unforgivable...doesn't change the Word though.

Agreed. no where does it say that murder is an unforgivable sin. Many murderers have come to Christ and been forgiven.

No they havn't, and that is the lie.  I am not calling you a liar.  What I am saying is that it is a lie that has been preached, and believed.  The adversary will try by any means to deceive.

God can not go against His Word.  I John 3:15 is truth, and anything else is untruth, or a lie.

Quote from: fanuvmxpx on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:02:00

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:00:48
Well it is obvious that you are unwilling to look at this from a logical point of view.

King David didn't murder, so he can be forgiven.  But because it is impossible for a murdered person to forgive, it is impossible for forgiveness.   And I John 3:15 still speaks volumes of the truth.

Your logic is destroyed by fallacy...

Either you are wrong or the Bible contradicts itself. The Word says that if you commit one sin you have committed them all. If you have stolen, you have murdered. Sin is sin. By your theology, any sin is therefore unforgivable which is contrary to the Word. So either you are wrong or the Word is wrong.

I don't see why this is so complicated. You can preach all you want about murder being unforgivable...doesn't change the Word though.

Also, it is entirely possible to be forgiven by the Lord and not by man. What if you hurt someone and wanted their forgiveness but could not find them? You've repented to the Lord but are still un-forgiven by man

fan, where are you getting this false information from ?  If you commit one sin, then you commit all sins, then you just comitted the unforgivable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit.  Your beliefs are not logical !

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:00:48

Quote from: chosenone on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 12:54:09
God can forgive murder, just as he can forgive rape, abuse, stealing, adultery, or any other sin that we committ against anyone else whether they forgive us or not. It doesnt matter whether the person that we hurt forgives us or not, that is their choice, but you are saying that Jesus died for everyone except those who have killed someone(including david by the way). No where does it say that murder or killing can not be forgiven by what Jesus did. The ONLY sin that the Bible tells us that cant be forgiven by Jesus death is the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. You are saying that what Jesus did isnt enough to forgive some sins and that isnt Biblical. NOTHING is too awful for his blood to wash us free from. Even if Hitler had TRULY repented on his death bed, he would have been forgiven.

Well it is obvious that you are unwilling to look at this from a logical point of view.

King David didn't murder, so he can be forgiven.  But because it is impossible for a murdered person to forgive, it is impossible for forgiveness.   And I John 3:15 still speaks volumes of the truth.

You have twisted this so far out of reality ....  The murdered person does not have to forgive the murderer.  God does.  The word says that unless you forgive that your sins will not be forgiven you.  BUT... it does not say that those who sin against you are not forgiven if they seek it from God.  That is not what the word says..  IF you do not forgive someone their sins, they can still go to God and be forgiven, such as the case in the dead person cannot forgive the murderer... He must go to God for forgiveness.  

The only person who would be in danger if the dead person can't forgive, is the dead person, for if he doesn't forgive, he won't be forgiven, but being murdered.. means they were not able, not that they wouldn't.  God know it all.

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:07:52

Quote from: fanuvmxpx on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:02:00

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:00:48
Well it is obvious that you are unwilling to look at this from a logical point of view.

King David didn't murder, so he can be forgiven.  But because it is impossible for a murdered person to forgive, it is impossible for forgiveness.   And I John 3:15 still speaks volumes of the truth.

Your logic is destroyed by fallacy...

Either you are wrong or the Bible contradicts itself. The Word says that if you commit one sin you have committed them all. If you have stolen, you have murdered. Sin is sin. By your theology, any sin is therefore unforgivable which is contrary to the Word. So either you are wrong or the Word is wrong.

I don't see why this is so complicated. You can preach all you want about murder being unforgivable...doesn't change the Word though.

Also, it is entirely possible to be forgiven by the Lord and not by man. What if you hurt someone and wanted their forgiveness but could not find them? You've repented to the Lord but are still un-forgiven by man

fan, where are you getting this false information from ?  If you commit one sin, then you commit all sins, then you just committed the unforgivable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit.  Your beliefs are not logical !

The word says, if you break one commandment or you break them all, you are guilty of the LAW...  sin is sin... except for the one GOD set aside as being the ONE that will not be forgiven.  You can't change that, wish it away, pout it gone or try to logic it out of existance...

You twist the word...  And not very creatively either.

It's PEBKAC error, specifically an ID 10 T.

love,

sopranette

I know the wife was kind of hoping that some of you guys would eventually rub-off on me, but I think it's working the other way around. 

Mark 3:28
28I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them.
29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.

Quote from: kensington on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:13:10

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:07:52

Quote from: fanuvmxpx on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:02:00

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:00:48
Well it is obvious that you are unwilling to look at this from a logical point of view.

King David didn't murder, so he can be forgiven.  But because it is impossible for a murdered person to forgive, it is impossible for forgiveness.   And I John 3:15 still speaks volumes of the truth.

Your logic is destroyed by fallacy...

Either you are wrong or the Bible contradicts itself. The Word says that if you commit one sin you have committed them all. If you have stolen, you have murdered. Sin is sin. By your theology, any sin is therefore unforgivable which is contrary to the Word. So either you are wrong or the Word is wrong.

I don't see why this is so complicated. You can preach all you want about murder being unforgivable...doesn't change the Word though.

Also, it is entirely possible to be forgiven by the Lord and not by man. What if you hurt someone and wanted their forgiveness but could not find them? You've repented to the Lord but are still un-forgiven by man

fan, where are you getting this false information from ?  If you commit one sin, then you commit all sins, then you just committed the unforgivable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit.  Your beliefs are not logical !

The word says, if you break one commandment or you break them all, you are guilty of the LAW...  sin is sin... except for the one GOD set aside as being the ONE that will not be forgiven.  You can't change that, wish it away, pout it gone or try to logic it out of existance...

You twist the word...  And not very creatively either.

Amen Kensington!

James 2:10
10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it


and MM you have repeatedly demanded scripture reference of others, but yet avoid providing any yourself

Quote from: kensington on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:13:10

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:07:52

Quote from: fanuvmxpx on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:02:00

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:00:48
Well it is obvious that you are unwilling to look at this from a logical point of view.

King David didn't murder, so he can be forgiven.  But because it is impossible for a murdered person to forgive, it is impossible for forgiveness.   And I John 3:15 still speaks volumes of the truth.

Your logic is destroyed by fallacy...

Either you are wrong or the Bible contradicts itself. The Word says that if you commit one sin you have committed them all. If you have stolen, you have murdered. Sin is sin. By your theology, any sin is therefore unforgivable which is contrary to the Word. So either you are wrong or the Word is wrong.

I don't see why this is so complicated. You can preach all you want about murder being unforgivable...doesn't change the Word though.

Also, it is entirely possible to be forgiven by the Lord and not by man. What if you hurt someone and wanted their forgiveness but could not find them? You've repented to the Lord but are still un-forgiven by man

fan, where are you getting this false information from ?  If you commit one sin, then you commit all sins, then you just committed the unforgivable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit.  Your beliefs are not logical !

The word says, if you break one commandment or you break them all, you are guilty of the LAW...  sin is sin... except for the one GOD set aside as being the ONE that will not be forgiven.  You can't change that, wish it away, pout it gone or try to logic it out of existance...

You twist the word...  And not very creatively either.

Reading the Word and properly understanding it are two totally different things.   I noticed you put your own spin on the interpretation.  Which you now end up with private interpretation.

This is the will of God - Numbers 35:31 -- If King David was a murderer, God would have no choice but to have His own Word fuflilled !

James 2:10 says this -- "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all" -- No one has ever kept the whole law.

Now lets read context - verse 11 - "For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet, thou kill , thou art become a transgressor of the law"  <  Killing, which is murder, makes one guilty of all the law.  There is no other sin other than murder which transgresses the whole law !

Now lets back up a couple of verses - James 2:8 - "If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well"

HE keeps demanding how the person who is murdered can forgive the one who killed them ...  but that is not what the word says.  It doesn't say IF you don't forgive the one who murders you they won't be forgiven if they seek GOD to forgive them,  it says...

IF you do not forgive... YOU WON'T BE FORGIVEN.  But in the case of the murder victim, I think that God has that in his hands.  Not getting a chance to forgive and refusing to forgive are two different things, and what that admonishment speaks to.

Quote from: HeRestoresMyHeart on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:36:25
Mark 3:28
28I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them.
29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.

Quote from: HeRestoresMyHeart on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:38:57

Quote from: kensington on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:13:10

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:07:52

Quote from: fanuvmxpx on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:02:00

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:00:48
Well it is obvious that you are unwilling to look at this from a logical point of view.

King David didn't murder, so he can be forgiven.  But because it is impossible for a murdered person to forgive, it is impossible for forgiveness.   And I John 3:15 still speaks volumes of the truth.

Your logic is destroyed by fallacy...

Either you are wrong or the Bible contradicts itself. The Word says that if you commit one sin you have committed them all. If you have stolen, you have murdered. Sin is sin. By your theology, any sin is therefore unforgivable which is contrary to the Word. So either you are wrong or the Word is wrong.

I don't see why this is so complicated. You can preach all you want about murder being unforgivable...doesn't change the Word though.

Also, it is entirely possible to be forgiven by the Lord and not by man. What if you hurt someone and wanted their forgiveness but could not find them? You've repented to the Lord but are still un-forgiven by man

fan, where are you getting this false information from ?  If you commit one sin, then you commit all sins, then you just committed the unforgivable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit.  Your beliefs are not logical !

The word says, if you break one commandment or you break them all, you are guilty of the LAW...  sin is sin... except for the one GOD set aside as being the ONE that will not be forgiven.  You can't change that, wish it away, pout it gone or try to logic it out of existance...

You twist the word...  And not very creatively either.

Amen Kensington!

James 2:10
10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it


and MM you have repeatedly demanded scripture reference of others, but yet avoid providing any yourself

The full context is talking about being a respector of persons.

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:43:36

Quote from: kensington on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:13:10

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:07:52

Quote from: fanuvmxpx on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:02:00

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:00:48
Well it is obvious that you are unwilling to look at this from a logical point of view.

King David didn't murder, so he can be forgiven.  But because it is impossible for a murdered person to forgive, it is impossible for forgiveness.   And I John 3:15 still speaks volumes of the truth.

Your logic is destroyed by fallacy...

Either you are wrong or the Bible contradicts itself. The Word says that if you commit one sin you have committed them all. If you have stolen, you have murdered. Sin is sin. By your theology, any sin is therefore unforgivable which is contrary to the Word. So either you are wrong or the Word is wrong.

I don't see why this is so complicated. You can preach all you want about murder being unforgivable...doesn't change the Word though.

Also, it is entirely possible to be forgiven by the Lord and not by man. What if you hurt someone and wanted their forgiveness but could not find them? You've repented to the Lord but are still un-forgiven by man

fan, where are you getting this false information from ?  If you commit one sin, then you commit all sins, then you just committed the unforgivable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit.  Your beliefs are not logical !

The word says, if you break one commandment or you break them all, you are guilty of the LAW...  sin is sin... except for the one GOD set aside as being the ONE that will not be forgiven.  You can't change that, wish it away, pout it gone or try to logic it out of existance...

You twist the word...  And not very creatively either.

Reading the Word and properly understanding it are two totally different things.   I noticed you put your own spin on the interpretation.  Which you now end up with private interpretation.

This is the will of God - Numbers 35:31 -- If King David was a murderer, God would have no choice but to have His own Word fuflilled !

James 2:10 says this -- "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all" -- No one has ever kept the whole law.

Now lets read context - verse 11 - "For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet, thou kill , thou art become a transgressor of the law"  <  Killing, which is murder, makes one guilty of all the law.  There is no other sin other than murder which transgresses the whole law !

Now lets back up a couple of verses - James 2:8 - "If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well"

Now... lets gag me with a spoon because you are not my teacher.  Not today not ever.   I did not put a spin on anything... I said it as it is written, and Herestoresmyheart posted the EXACT Scripture that says EXACTLY what I said.  

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:43:36There is no other sin other than murder which transgresses the whole law !

MM that is a blatent twist of scripture as that verse (James 2:10) does not say that at all not even a little bit!!!  What is says is that if you break one law (regardless of what it is) you are guilty of breaking them all and in regards to murder it says:

verse 11

I believes Mysteryman is probably a FALSE TEACHER....  !  !  !  !  ! ! !

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:46:49

Quote from: HeRestoresMyHeart on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:36:25
Mark 3:28
28I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them.
29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.

Now, let us repeat... "EVERY" sin will be forgiven "BUT" blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. 

Quote from: Mystery Man on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 14:07:52
fan, where are you getting this false information from ?  If you commit one sin, then you commit all sins, then you just committed the unforgivable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit.  Your beliefs are not logical !

What is clearly logical, is that even your concept of logic is a fallacy in and of itself. Where did you study logic? Do you know the rules of logic & the constraints of logic? Argument/Premise/Fallacy...any of these terms ring a bell? I can give you Psych 101, I've educated myself for years.

Let me ask you this...what is blaspheming the Holy Spirit? That might help you in your understanding of sin. Why is it unforgivable?

Oh, and I get all my false information from the Bible. Ponder that one for awhile

Now, now.  There's no reason to bring logic into this.  Carry on...

love,

sopranette

Quote from: sopranette on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 15:47:13
Now, now.  There's no reason to bring logic into this.  Carry on...

love,

sopranette

It wasn't meant to be insulting in any way...I just caution individuals from using certain terms that they have no grasp of meaning. Shall we continue?...

It looks like we probably will....unfortunately.  Now, what's the definition of "is" again?

love,

sopranette

Quote from: sopranette on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 15:47:13
Now, now.  There's no reason to bring logic into this.  Carry on...

love,

sopranette

Oh yes... The logic dance....   It looks a wee bit like the Chicken dance, only you wear a bag over your head so as not to see reality going on.

Quote from: sopranette on Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 15:51:52
It looks like we probably will....unfortunately.  Now, what's the definition of "is" again?

love,

sopranette

The best part about that...IS that "is" isn't definable. Adverbs don't exactly have meanings 8oP