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Quote from: Ave Maria on Mon Oct 12, 2009 - 03:45:11
Nowhere does the Bible say that it alone is the authority for faith and doctrine.  In fact, the Bible recommends us to Tradition as well.b

God Bless,
Ave Maria

One of the biggest problems Protestants are having with the Roman Catholic Church is the requirement for obedience. One God, one Son, one Spirit, one Church.  The halter has been off for too long now, and getting them back into the corral will be next to impossible.  I can tell you this much, since I have been excommunicated the freedom is awesome.  In the Protestant World there is only the Bible, period!  There is no Pope. In the excommunicated world there is Maria. Safe may we sleep beneath thy care. Ave Maria.

Quote from: banished on Mon Oct 12, 2009 - 22:05:22
b

Quote from: Ave Maria on Mon Oct 12, 2009 - 03:45:11
Nowhere does the Bible say that it alone is the authority for faith and doctrine.  In fact, the Bible recommends us to Tradition as well.b

God Bless,
Ave Maria

One of the biggest problems Protestants are having with the Roman Catholic Church is the requirement for obedience. One God, one Son, one Spirit, one Church.  The halter has been off for too long now, and getting them back into the corral will be next to impossible.  I can tell you this much, since I have been excommunicated the freedom is awesome.  In the Protestant World there is only the Bible, period!  There is no Pope. In the excommunicated world there is Maria. Safe may we sleep beneath thy care. Ave Maria.

There has always been just one God, one Son, and one spirit from the very birth of the church at Pentecost. The problem is when ambition and the lust for supreme authority blinded the bishops of Rome the Holy spirit departed and the church became institutionalized. The identity of the church was lost. As long as you just see the church as an institution and a hierarchy you forget the it is the whole body of believers that are the church Just as it was at Pentecost. No Roman Catholic monolith or Protestantism . God does not see a Roman Catholic church nor hunbdreds of different denominations. Christianity as a whole has been lost in modernday traditions. It is true that traditions is a vital part of the church. The apostles said hold fast to the tradiitions they taught but not traditions of men that invented  knew ones that were not of Christ or the apostles, nor of the spirit. 
As i have said when leaders that claim primacy falsely are men who have lost the Holy Spirit and pray upon the ignorance of the body.  This was easy during the time the papacy ruled the empire and claimed they only were able to teach the scripture and the body was forced to except their authority even when it was abused and corrupt.

For those who walk in the spirit and know the Spirit there is truly one God, one Son, one spirit, one church Leaders who are not led of the spirit are leaders who just claim authority and think they are of the spirit.           

God bless

Quote from: mclees8 on Mon Oct 12, 2009 - 23:43:54


One of the biggest problems Protestants are having with the Roman Catholic Church is the requirement for obedience. One God, one Son, one Spirit, one Church.  The halter has been off for too long now, and getting them back into the corral will be next to impossible.  I can tell you this much, since I have been excommunicated the freedom is awesome.  In the Protestant World there is only the Bible, period!  There is no Pope. In the excommunicated world there is Maria. Safe may we sleep beneath thy care. Ave Maria.

There has always been just one God, one Son, and one spirit from the very birth of the church at Pentecost. The problem is when ambition and the lust for supreme authority blinded the bishops of Rome the Holy spirit departed and the church became institutionalized. The identity of the church was lost. As long as you just see the church as an institution and a hierarchy you forget the it is the whole body of believers that are the church Just as it was at Pentecost. No Roman Catholic monolith or Protestantism . God does not see a Roman Catholic church nor hunbdreds of different denominations. Christianity as a whole has been lost in modernday traditions. It is true that traditions is a vital part of the church. The apostles said hold fast to the tradiitions they taught but not traditions of men that invented  knew ones that were not of Christ or the apostles, nor of the spirit.  
As i have said when leaders that claim primacy falsely are men who have lost the Holy Spirit and pray upon the ignorance of the body.  This was easy during the time the papacy ruled the empire and claimed they only were able to teach the scripture and the body was forced to except their authority even when it was abused and corrupt.

For those who walk in the spirit and know the Spirit there is truly one God, one Son, one spirit, one church Leaders who are not led of the spirit are leaders who just claim authority and think they are of the spirit.            

God bless
[/quote]

mclees8-

Yes, that sounds reasonable.  Nothing to argue with there, but my wife and I were excommunicated for going that route when we were married.  I was widowed and my wife never married, but many divorced Catholics have fallen into the the same trap as we did when they were remarried in a Civil or Protestant wedding.  We are all in the same boat as excommunicated Catholics.  

Here is the catch:  A plate of bread crumbs with tiny plastic cups of grape juice is a fake communion, and everyone knows it.  The Roman Catholic Church, regardless of a few Popes falling into political sin, has the real genuine Communion that is the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.   Only a successor of Peter through Holy Orders can do that, all other attempts are a fraud.

I don't have the numbers, but many-many Protestants who I have questioned told me that they were divorced Catholics.  Sure, they can give me their testimony (that anyone can memorize), but they were excommunicated out of the Catholic Church because of who they married or remarried outside the Sacrament of Marriage.

Now, let me ask you whether you are a Divorced Catholic who remarried outside the Church?  Something bad happened, or you would be in a church now.

Note:  Sorry I messed up the quotes, and don't know how to fix it.

Quote from: banished on Tue Oct 13, 2009 - 13:24:22

Quote from: mclees8 on Mon Oct 12, 2009 - 23:43:54


One of the biggest problems Protestants are having with the Roman Catholic Church is the requirement for obedience. One God, one Son, one Spirit, one Church.  The halter has been off for too long now, and getting them back into the corral will be next to impossible.  I can tell you this much, since I have been excommunicated the freedom is awesome.  In the Protestant World there is only the Bible, period!  There is no Pope. In the excommunicated world there is Maria. Safe may we sleep beneath thy care. Ave Maria.

There has always been just one God, one Son, and one spirit from the very birth of the church at Pentecost. The problem is when ambition and the lust for supreme authority blinded the bishops of Rome the Holy spirit departed and the church became institutionalized. The identity of the church was lost. As long as you just see the church as an institution and a hierarchy you forget the it is the whole body of believers that are the church Just as it was at Pentecost. No Roman Catholic monolith or Protestantism . God does not see a Roman Catholic church nor hunbdreds of different denominations. Christianity as a whole has been lost in modernday traditions. It is true that traditions is a vital part of the church. The apostles said hold fast to the tradiitions they taught but not traditions of men that invented  knew ones that were not of Christ or the apostles, nor of the spirit.  
As i have said when leaders that claim primacy falsely are men who have lost the Holy Spirit and pray upon the ignorance of the body.  This was easy during the time the papacy ruled the empire and claimed they only were able to teach the scripture and the body was forced to except their authority even when it was abused and corrupt.

For those who walk in the spirit and know the Spirit there is truly one God, one Son, one spirit, one church Leaders who are not led of the spirit are leaders who just claim authority and think they are of the spirit.            

God bless

mclees8-

Yes, that sounds reasonable.  Nothing to argue with there, but my wife and I were excommunicated for going that route when we were married.  I was widowed and my wife never married, but many divorced Catholics have fallen into the the same trap as we did when they were remarried in a Civil or Protestant wedding.  We are all in the same boat as excommunicated Catholics.  

Here is the catch:  A plate of bread crumbs with tiny plastic cups of grape juice is a fake communion, and everyone knows it.  The Roman Catholic Church, regardless of a few Popes falling into political sin, has the real genuine Communion that is the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.   Only a successor of Peter through Holy Orders can do that, all other attempts are a fraud.

I don't have the numbers, but many-many Protestants who I have questioned told me that they were divorced Catholics.  Sure, they can give me their testimony (that anyone can memorize), but they were excommunicated out of the Catholic Church because of who they married or remarried outside the Sacrament of Marriage.

Now, let me ask you whether you are a Divorced Catholic who remarried outside the Church?  Something bad happened, or you would be in a church now.

Note:  Sorry I messed up the quotes, and don't know how to fix it.

[/quote]

Dear banished the church first starts with a person. Paul stated "know ye not ye are the temple of God and the Spirit of of God dwelleth in you" 1st( cor 3:16 )

I watched an inspiring movie the other night. It was about a youg man who became very educated and gifted surgeon. In the movie he had a vision that he was in a class room. There was a teacher at the black board. He went up to the teacher and he disappeared and he was the one with the chalk in his hands. He turned to the teachers stand to see a book and the book disappeared. he then saw his mother sitting there. She said you don't need the book any more. The book now is in you.

Why are you so hung up on what you think is the right way to Remember Christ. Is he not in your heart. Do you not have a spiritual communion with him ever day. If you went on a long journey far from civilization. and there were no ordained priest to properly administer the sacraments how then would you honor Christ ? You are still institutionalized and bound by the law. Open your eyes and see who it is that your love and obey.     

God bless     

Deuteronomy 4:2 "You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take anything from it

Quote from: Corbley on Wed Oct 14, 2009 - 08:29:14
Deuteronomy 4:2 "You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take anything from it

Quote from: banished on Mon Oct 12, 2009 - 00:01:38
Hello normfromga,

Hey, banished-

QuoteWhen you identify yourself with a "small independent congregation" and then take jabs at the well known denominations, it's a little one sided, don't you think?

Not if the originator of this thread  declares:

Quote"The Bible explains everything necessary to attain holiness, i.e. church doctrines and teachings have no role in attaining holiness.

Hello normfromga,

You are interesting to talk to.  God has lead me down a path that brings me into contact with a few small congregations and also a few cults.  It all started long before the Internet while I was active with Ham Radio.  I used to talk to Jim Jones in Guiana with my radio, and he used to ask for blankets.  That is a hot humid climate, so I always wonder about him? On short wave radio there is another small group in your neck of the woods that live in old travel trailers.  Another in Aberdeen, TX that keeps the Commandments. etc

Now lets face the facts:  I could hang those small groups around your neck the same as you hang Ted Kennedy around the Catholics neck.  But, it was Cardinal Sean O'Malley who went outside the Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church and gave Kennedy a Royal Catholic Funeral contrary to Canon Law.  And, it was Jim Jones who had the Peoples Temple in Guiana drink cool aid.  Get my point?

At present there are over one billion Roman Catholics Worldwide.  That is 1,085,557,000, and most of them never heard of Cardinal Sean O'Malley. Plus, if we were to add the excommunicated who still attend Mass the number would be much higher.  And then there is EWTN Catholic Television 24/7.

Maybe I can add some facts here, as they are lacking.


2002, Christian Science Monitor on national survey results by Christian Ministry Resources

Despite headlines focusing on the priest pedophile problem in the Catholic Church, most US churches being hit with child sexual-abuse allegations are Protestant.

Penn State professor Philip Jenkins, on Pedophiles & Priests:
0.2 & 1.7 percent of Catholic priests are pedophiles.
While Protestant Clergy Ranges between 2- 3%.




How extensive is the problem of clergy sex abuse in the Jewish community?

Wayward Clergy: Is it Rampant or an Aberration?
Eugene L. Meyer & Richard Greenberg

NY(JTA)-Some experts estimate that "between 18 and 39% of Jewish clergy are involved in Sexual harassment, sexual Exploitation and/or sexual Misconduct -the Same Percentage as Non-Jewish clergy," according to the 2002 book "Sex, Lies, and Rabbis: Breaking a Sacred Trust" written by psychotherapist Charlotte Rolnick Schwab.'



Catholicism BUILT Western  Civilization, It Spread Gospels & Christianity worldwide.
Developed the Free-Market Economy, Invented of University System, Birthplace of Modern Science, Foundation for Western Rule of Law, Patron of Master Artists & Musicians, Renaissance works of Modern Glorious periods.
Still Preserves Humanity- teachings of sanctity of life.   Abortion is still Illegal in Catholic Nations-Ireland, Spain, Poland, Portugal but Not in Protestant or Jewish Run Protestant nations.
Francisco de Vitoria is recognized by the UN as a Father of International law.
Catholic Church set up the Hospital system in Medieval Europe.
Catholic Church fought off the Muslim Saracens, otherwise you'd be speaking Arabic and Persian.

Quote from: banished on Wed Oct 14, 2009 - 18:06:13
Hello normfromga,

Now lets face the facts:  I could hang those small groups around your neck the same as you hang Ted Kennedy around the Catholics neck.  But, it was Cardinal Sean O'Malley who went outside the Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church and gave Kennedy a Royal Catholic Funeral contrary to Canon Law.  And, it was Jim Jones who had the Peoples Temple in Guiana drink cool aid.  Get my point?

But I am not demonizing the Catholic Church, or any other denomination, due to the actions of a few leaders.  [We should not forget that Jim Jones' Temple was affiliated with the Disciples of Christ denomination before he decided to move overseas and no longer need tax-emptions...]

I am simply arguing that no community of believers can be made immune to sin and corruption by adding layers of bureaucracy.  If leaders, even cardinals, can escape being disciplined by their superiors in such a hierarchy, then what is the inherent disadvantage of being an independent congregation?

Quote from: Magnificat on Tue Oct 06, 2009 - 20:29:02

Quote from: Jimmy on Tue Oct 06, 2009 - 07:40:04
I know chapter 16 of the gospel of Matthew.  

That's great. How about you do an exegesis on this and we compare notes.

No need for an exegesis at all.  The RCC simply doesn't show up there.

TradCath-

Thanks for supporting what I was saying:  mainstream denominations do not produce flawless leaders, or leadership.

BTW, while abortion is still illegal in Ireland, it is allowed in Spain, Poland, and  Portugal for the ever-popular, " mental wellbeing of the mother."  Also, France and Italy, not quite classifiable as "... Protestant or Jewish Run Protestant nations..."  allow abortion on demand.

Otherwise, you make a strong case that the Christianity provided the driving force that created and sustained what we would call "Western Civilization."  I am not so sure if you could support the idea that the Roman Catholic Church continued to do this alone after the advent of the Reformation Movement. 

Quote from: Jimmy on Thu Oct 15, 2009 - 10:05:05

Quote from: Magnificat on Tue Oct 06, 2009 - 20:29:02

Quote from: Jimmy on Tue Oct 06, 2009 - 07:40:04
I know chapter 16 of the gospel of Matthew.  

That's great. How about you do an exegesis on this and we compare notes.

No need for an exegesis at all.  The RCC simply doesn't show up there.

Hello Jimmy,

The bottom line:  Christ spoke Aramaic and nicknamed Simon "Kepha".  Christ did not speak Greek.  Peter IS "the rock", the earthly head of Christ's Church as Christ Himself states in Matthew 16.

I am thinking about programming a Hot Key on my computer with that text so I wont have to keep typing it.     Okay, now I got it.


Christ spoke Aramaic and nicknamed Simon "Kepha".  Christ did not speak Greek.

Christ spoke Aramaic and nicknamed Simon "Kepha".  Christ did not speak Greek.

Christ spoke Aramaic and nicknamed Simon "Kepha".  Christ did not speak Greek.

Christ spoke Aramaic and nicknamed Simon "Kepha".  Christ did not speak Greek.

Christ spoke Aramaic and nicknamed Simon "Kepha".  Christ did not speak Greek.

Quote from: banished on Thu Oct 15, 2009 - 10:53:39
Peter IS "the rock", the earthly head of Christ's Church as Christ Himself states in Matthew 16.

A first year college english freshman or first year seminary student that is studying greek will totally disagree with the way the Catholic Church interprets that single verse to support its apostolic line.

The 'this', refers to the previous verse... Peters confession that indeed Jesus was the Christ... so Jesus was founding his Church on our like confessions.

In spite of Peter's betrayal.. Jesus still blessed him with being the first to confess him.

QuoteBTW, while abortion is still illegal in Ireland, it is allowed in Spain, Poland, and  Portugal for the ever-popular, " mental wellbeing of the mother."  

Also, France and Italy, not quite classifiable as "... Protestant or Jewish Run Protestant nations..."   allow abortion on demand.

Recent Abortion Laws in those nations to protect the mother, have been introduced.
It hasnt been the case traditionally, decades after Roe V Wade.  
The Church still works to protect the unborn there.

France and Italy are part of the EU, and hence,  are run By Jews and Jewish interests.  
Run by Proxy if not outright, as is the USA via the FED and AIPAC Israel Lobby

QuoteA first year college english freshman or first year seminary student that is studying greek will totally disagree with the way the Catholic Church interprets that single verse to support its apostolic line.

Its irrelevant.
Christ Spoke Aramiac and Hebrew.  Not Greek.
Kepha is ROCK.

The Gospels were recorded in Aramaic. And some texts in Hebrew.

Quote from: TradCath on Thu Oct 15, 2009 - 11:02:54

QuoteA first year college english freshman or first year seminary student that is studying greek will totally disagree with the way the Catholic Church interprets that single verse to support its apostolic line.

Its irrelevant.
Christ Spoke Aramiac and Hebrew.  Not Greek.
Kepha is ROCK.

The Gospels were recorded in Aramaic. And some texts in Hebrew.

Can you provide an aramaic proof text for us to verify what you are saying?

The Rock is confession..

Besides, Peter could never have been in Rome.. anyhow.. so your church isn't built on Peter.

Quote from: normfromga on Thu Oct 15, 2009 - 10:44:47
TradCath-

Otherwise, you make a strong case that the Christianity provided the driving force that created and sustained what we would call "Western Civilization."  I am not so sure if you could support the idea that the Roman Catholic Church continued to do this alone after the advent of the Reformation Movement. 

normfromga,

In one of these threads you complained about the Kennedy Funeral.  Well, regardless of how we approach it, whether it be secular or from one of the great religions of the World, that Kennedy funeral was all the grandeur of Western Civilization. It included everything from the phony political leaders, the phony church leaders, the payola to the Pope, the Latin, and for us peon's, Susan Graham sang "Ave Maria".  I find it amazing that the Protestant reformation didn't change a thing.  Answer me this: Where do the Protestants fit into Western Civilization?

'Jesus' spoke Aramaic, the common language of Galilee during his lifetime.
Aramaic was an ancient Semitic language related to Hebrew much as French is related to Spanish or as Cantonese is related to Mandarin.
(Thanks to Prof. Zev bar-Lev for help with these analogies.)

Though these gospels were written originally in Greek, at several points Jesus' words are given in Aramaic, for example: "Talitha orgasm" (Mark 5:41, "Little girl, get up!"); "Abba" (Mark 14:36. "Father"); "Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachtani?" (Mark 15:34, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"). In these cases the actual Aramaic words of Jesus were remembered and passed on even by Greek-speaking Christians.

Though Judeanss had once spoken Hebrew as their primary language, this changed when Israel was overthrown, first by the Assyrians in the eight-century B.C. and then by the Babylonians in the sixth-century B.C.
By the time of Jesus Aramaic was so common among Jews that the reading of the Hebrew Scripture in the synagogue was accompanied by translation into Aramaic.
(For a helpful overview of Aramaic, see the "Comprehensive Aramaic Lexicon" website of Hebrew Union College.)
-Dr Mark Roberts


St Peter Died in ROME.  
Many Protestant scholars agree on this fact.  He was buried there as well.
Protestant scholar J. N. D. Kelly "Peter spent his closing years in Rome'

Other early writings which show that Peter was indeed in Rome...

Dionysius of Corinth in his letter to the 12th Pope Soter in 170 A.D.

Clement of Corinth in his letter to the Corinthians in 70 A.D.

Peter of Alexandria, in his work called 'Penance' in 311.

St Ignatius of Antioch, in his letter to the Romans, about 107.

"Some call it Marxism — I call it Judaism." (The American Bulletin, Rabbi S. Wise, May 5, 1935).

"The Communists are against religion (Christianity), and they seek to destroy religion; yet, when we look deeper into the nature of Communism, we see that it is essential nothing else than a religion (Judaism)."
(A Program for the Jews and Humanity, Rabbi Harry Waton, p. 138).

"The only reason that Jews are in pornography is that we think that Christ sucks. Catholicism sucks."
---Al Goldstein, CEO of Screw Magazine & Film


Protestants have been used by Jews to bring about this New World Order, that we all now face and must live with.
The Church Kept Order for 1600 years.
Protestants (knowingly and unknowingly), Freemasons and Jews have destroyed most of what was good and we seee the results:  Communism, Feminsim, Abortion, USURY, Racial Miscegenation, Theft of Palestine, WW1, WW2, Iraq, Afganistan, Heavy Taxation, Divorce, The Pill,  and destruction throughout the world.

Quote from: TradCath on Thu Oct 15, 2009 - 12:09:23
St Peter Died in ROME.  
Many Protestant scholars agree on this fact.  He was buried there as well.
Protestant scholar J. N. D. Kelly "Peter spent his closing years in Rome'

None of the Protestant Scholars I know would not agree with that fact...

J. N. D. Kelly also was not a protestant.. he was Anglican... big difference.

Peter could never have been in Rome.. and if by some stroke of luck that he was, it would never have been long enough to found a church.

Protestants number over 35,000 Competing Sects.  Im sure you could find many that agree on nothing and why they cannibalize one another.
None can agree on Scripture or much anything else.


One honest Protestant historian and theologian -- Adolph Harnack -- wrote that "to deny the Roman stay of Peter is an error which today is clear to every scholar who is NOT BLIND. The martyr death of Peter at Rome was once contested by reason of Protestant prejudice."

Quote'Peter had to die and be buried somewhere; and the OVERWHELMING CHRISTIAN TRADITION has been in agreement, from the EARLIEST TIMES, that it was actually in Rome that Peter died. F. J. Foakes-Jackson, in his book Peter: Prince of Apostles, states "that the tradition that the church [in Rome] had been founded by...Paul was well established by A.D. 178. From hence forth there is NO DOUBT whatever that, NOT ONLY AT ROME, but throughout the Christian church, Peter's visit to the city was an ESTABLISHED FACT, as was his martyrdom together with that of Paul" (New York, 1927. P. 155.).

Historian Arthur Stapylton Barnes agrees:
'The strong point in the evidence of the [church] fathers is their UNANIMITY. It is QUITE CLEAR that no other place was known to them as claiming to have been the scene of St. Peter's death, and the repository of his relics.' -- St. Peter in Rome, London, 1900. P. 7.


New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge corroborates this by saying:
Tradition seems to maintain that Peter went to Rome toward the end of his life and there suffered martyrdom UNDER NERO. NO SOURCE describes the place of Peter's martyrdom as other than Rome. It seems most probable, on the whole, that Peter died a martyr's death IN ROME TOWARD THE CLOSE OF NERO'S REIGN, sometime AFTER the cessation of the general persecution. -- Article, "Peter."

John Ignatius Dollinger claims that the evidence "St. Peter worked in Rome is a FACT SO ABUNDANTLY PROVED and so deeply imbedded in the earliest Christian history, that whoever treats it as a legend ought in consistency to treat the whole of the earliest church history as LEGENDARY, or, at least, QUITE UNCERTAIN" (The 1st Age of Christianity and the Church, London. 1867. P. 296).

Protest-ants love this debate but it falls flat on their face every time...

There was ONE United, Universal Church,  until the Reformation!

Also, there is an abundance of material to show that Peter ordained Clement TO REPLACE LINUS as overseer of the Roman Church after the latter's martyrdom in 67 A.D. The list of bishops of Rome in the Ante-Nicene Fathers show that Clement was an overseer from 68-71 A.D.

Peter was the First Head and a Successor of Popes followed, elected by the Curia.

Whether or not he even died in Rome is largely irrelevant.  

Peter too was Crucified by the Jews as many of the Apostles and Saints were, They fled the Holy Land for their own safety and to promote the teachings of Christ.

The Anglican Church is a Protestant Sect.  It is not affiliated with the Catholic body whatsoever.

Quote from: TradCath on Thu Oct 15, 2009 - 12:31:48
There was ONE United, Universal Church,  until the Reformation!

Hmm... about the schism.. in 1054...  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East%E2%80%93West_Schism

Where the Roman Catholic Church split from its Eastern Orthodox brothers?

The reformation happened in the 1500's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformation

Quote from: TradCath on Thu Oct 15, 2009 - 12:31:48
The Anglican Church is a Protestant Sect.  It is not affiliated with the Catholic body whatsoever.

The Anglican church is identical to the Catholic church except the Monarch of England claimed the papacy over the Church in England... the Anglican church has little to do with the protestant reformation (which split over ideology).. whereas the Anglican church split over the Pope refusing to give the English King a divorce.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_of_Supremacy_1559

You really should study your history... you are doing your cause a real disservice.

You know what the bible says about the fool... it is better to keep your mouth shut then to let the whole world know... and right now you are pretty much there.

Quote from: banished on Thu Oct 15, 2009 - 10:53:39

Quote from: Jimmy on Thu Oct 15, 2009 - 10:05:05

Quote from: Magnificat on Tue Oct 06, 2009 - 20:29:02

Quote from: Jimmy on Tue Oct 06, 2009 - 07:40:04
I know chapter 16 of the gospel of Matthew.  

That's great. How about you do an exegesis on this and we compare notes.

No need for an exegesis at all.  The RCC simply doesn't show up there.

Hello Jimmy,

The bottom line:  Christ spoke Aramaic and nicknamed Simon "Kepha".  Christ did not speak Greek.  Peter IS "the rock", the earthly head of Christ's Church as Christ Himself states in Matthew 16.

I am thinking about programming a Hot Key on my computer with that text so I wont have to keep typing it.     Okay, now I got it.


Christ spoke Aramaic and nicknamed Simon "Kepha".  Christ did not speak Greek.

Christ spoke Aramaic and nicknamed Simon "Kepha".  Christ did not speak Greek.

Christ spoke Aramaic and nicknamed Simon "Kepha".  Christ did not speak Greek.

Christ spoke Aramaic and nicknamed Simon "Kepha".  Christ did not speak Greek.

Christ spoke Aramaic and nicknamed Simon "Kepha".  Christ did not speak Greek.

That is an example of your exegesis??   

There was a Schism with the Orthodox, over the issue of the meaning of the word Filoque and use of leaven bread.
The Vatican and Constantinople both were headquarters for Christianity but sadly this issue separateed them.
Orthodox Christians still have Valid Sacraments including a Valid Mass.  Orthodox split WITH The Vatican and the Pope, not the other way around.


Anglican Church has nothing to do with Catholicism or The Vatican.
A Monarch cannot be the Head of the Church.  
It more resembles Luther  and Protest-antism that Catholicism.
Their Mass is invalid, Sacraments invalid and are marrying Homosexual couples.
Papal Bull "Apostolicae Curae", declared Anglican orders to be invalid.

You could use some of your own advice about research and history.

Sorry. Try again...Next

Quote from: TradCath on Thu Oct 15, 2009 - 12:42:18
Orthodox split WITH The Vatican and the Pope, not the other way around.

So one person who is equal among brothers has the right to excommunication the larger group and retain authority?... I don't think so.. it was the RCC that initiated and forced the split... read your history.

Quote from: TradCath on Thu Oct 15, 2009 - 12:42:18
Anglican Church has nothing to do with Catholicism or The Vatican.
A Monarch cannot be the Head of the Church. 
It more resembles Luther  and Protest-antism that Catholicism.
Their Mass is invalid, Sacraments invalid and are marrying Homosexual couples.

But it isn't protestant.. which is what you asserted.

You should learn to admit when you are wrong.

Lastly, there are no sacraments in Christianity anymore.. they are just things used to oppress the masses and keep the money flowing into the church.

I have communion in my house, with my christian friends, family and neighbors after a meal.. I set aside some bread and wine and we do exactly what Jesus commanded us to do... remember him.  And guess what, it costs nobody a dime and no one is expected to donate me any money (and I would refuse anyhow).

Show me where in the scriptures is says that priests are to administer the 'eucharist'... not a single one of the Apostles did...

Tantor what you posted is Blaspheme.
It doesnt deserve a response.  You as a layperson, cannot distribute the Eucharist or have a mock Sacrifice on Calvary.


1 Cor. 11:27-29 - Paul says that eating or drinking in an unworthy manner is the equivalent of profaning (literally, murdering) the body and blood of the Lord.
If this is just a symbol, we cannot be guilty of actually profaning (murdering) it. We cannot murder a symbol. Either Paul, the divinely inspired apostle of God, is imposing an unjust penalty, or the Eucharist is the actual body and blood of Christ.


John 6:52
Then the Judeans began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
Jesus said to them,
"I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
'For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever."
He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.'


Verse 19
Christ tells Peter "And I will give thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Loosed and Bind. Got that?


Acts 5:29
' the high priest questioned the apostles before the Sanhedrin and when they responded Scripture records the response as being, "But Peter and the Apostles said in reply, 'We must obey God rather than men.".
The fact that the verse says "Peter and the apostles " implies that Peter led the group's response in at least that situation.
In Matthew 10:2 Scripture starts off by saying "The names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon called Peter, and his brother Andrew; "
.The next few verses go on to list the others, but the important point to note here is how it starts off saying "FIRST, Simon called Peter" ranking him as first among the group of apostles

John 21:15 Jesus asked Peter "Do you love me more than these?" And after Peter told him yes, Jesus commanded him to "Feed my lambs."3 Times!


Matthew Chapter 16. In verse 15-17 Christ asks "
"But who do you say that I am? "Simon Peter said in reply, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God." Jesus said to him in reply,
"Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father." Here in verse 17 Christ has just told Peter, along with the audience of the apostles, that God the Father directly reveals things to Peter that He does not reveal to other men

Quote from: TradCath on Thu Oct 15, 2009 - 13:03:04
It doesnt deserve a response.  You as a layperson, cannot distribute the Eucharist or have a mock Sacrifice on Calvary.

What sacrifice?.. Was Christ's sacrifice insufficient?.. absolutely NOT.

If you are making any sacrifices in the name of Jesus.. it is blasphemy.

You also have a hard time distinguishing between the symbolic and the real.

ALL CHRISTIANS ARE A ROYAL PRIESTHOOD...

It really bothers me how inverted both Catholic and Protestant traditions are in respect to leadership from the example that Jesus set forth for us to follow.

Quote
Hebrews 10
Christ's Sacrifice Once for All
1The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

5Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
   "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
      but a body you prepared for me;
6with burnt offerings and sin offerings
      you were not pleased.
7Then I said, 'Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
      I have come to do your will, O God.' "[a] 8First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). 9Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16"This is the covenant I will make with them
      after that time, says the Lord.
   I will put my laws in their hearts,
      and I will write them on their minds." 17Then he adds:
   "Their sins and lawless acts
      I will remember no more."[c] 18And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. 19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"[d] and again, "The Lord will judge his people."[e] 31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you stood your ground in a great contest in the face of suffering. 33Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions.

35So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. 36You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37For in just a very little while,
   "He who is coming will come and will not delay.
    38But my righteous one[f] will live by faith.
   And if he shrinks back,
      I will not be pleased with him."[g] 39But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.

To make any type of sacrifice is to blaspheme Jesus' work on the cross.

I just cited it for you, the text. I will try again.
Christs' Blood was the Sacrifice. Which you Blaspheme.


John 6:52
"I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

'For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever."
He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.'



Pot, kettle, black
You mock Christs' Words now too?
He said it was Real. Real Food, Real Drink.  A sacrifice.

Quote from: TradCath on Thu Oct 15, 2009 - 13:12:23
I just cited it for you, the text. I will try again.
Christs' Blood was the Sacrifice. Which you Blaspheme.


John 6:52
"I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

'For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever."
He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.'



Pot, kettle, black

That in no way negates what I have said... the wine represents the blood and the bread represents his body.

I don't see anything in that verse where some sort of unbiblical priest has to recite some hocus pocus to turn the blood and bread into something else.

But then again the proof is not in what we do, but God imparting his Holy Spirit to his chosen.

Christs work was complete and finished for all time.. we do not need to crucify him again during every mass to obtain more of his blood and body.

The Words Christ used at the Last Supper before his Crucifixion were not 'Hocus Pocus'

I feel sorry and ashamed for you..

Quote from: TradCath on Thu Oct 15, 2009 - 13:15:28
The Words Christ used at the Last Supper before his Crucifixion were not 'Hocus Pocus'

I feel sorry and ashamed for you..

I feel sorry that you have exchanged your faith in God for the mindless rituals of mankind.

And that you feel Christ's death on the cross is on on-going affair instead of being once and for all.

But then again, you have shown your ignorance of history and the word.. so I will pray that the Holy Spirit will open your mind to becoming a true follower of Christ for a change.

Of Course its a Ritual.  Why Do you Mock Christ and his Word?

Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever."
'Do This In Memory Of Me' -Christ...is a ritual that we celebrate every Sunday, Our Sabbath
The day of HIS Resurrection



And All Church Members are expected to Tithe. Youre just cheap.

In Church Days, before a Jewish Owned Federal Reserve, we got a just wage and were not taxed on it. Now we pay 33% to interest on debt that can never be repaid, I digress.

The Tithe goes to help the Poor and less fortunate, Mission in 3rd world nations, Fund schools, Universities, Monasteries, Upkeep of Property.


It was The Church that:
Created your Bible
BUILT Western Civilization, Spread The Gospels & Christianity worldwide.
Developed the Free-Market Economy, Invented of University System, Birthplaced Modern Science, Founded for Western Rule of Law, Patron of Master Artists & Musicians, Renaissance works of Modern Glorious periods.

The Church Still Preserves Humanity- teachings of sanctity of life.
Francisco de Vitoria is recognized by the UN as a Father of International law. Catholic Church set up the Hospital system in Medieval Europe.

And Fought Off Muslim Saracens.

Enjoy your House Bread and wine

Banished-

I never mentioned Kennedy's funeral, and really didn't wish to single him out as an adulterer; John Kerry, or, to remain bipartisan, Rudy Giuliani, could easily fill the bill.

I was criticising a sanctioned practise that dissolves marriages in order to allow philanderers to remain in the Church's good graces.

QuoteWhere do the Protestants fit into Western Civilization?

Beats me...

Perhaps you should ask a Protestant...

Quote from: TradCath on Thu Oct 15, 2009 - 13:23:16
Of Course its a Ritual.  Why Do you Mock Christ and his Word?

Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever."
'Do This In Memory Of Me' -Christ...is a ritual that we celebrate every Sunday, Our Sabbath
The day of HIS Resurrection

I am not mocking Christ.. I'm just mocking the RCC for taking something so simple and making it into a big production so they can subjugate the masses.

Quote from: TradCath on Thu Oct 15, 2009 - 13:23:16
And All Church Members are expected to Tithe. Youre just cheap.

Do you even know what a tithe is?... because I can guarantee that even if you are giving 10%, it is not a biblical tithe.  Do you even know of the significance of the Jewish tithe in the Old Covenant?

Created your Bible  --- so... why didn't you do a better job at maintaining the manuscripts.. you did a horrible job.

BUILT Western Civilization, Spread The Gospels & Christianity worldwide.... we were supposed to spread the Gospel.. not be nation builders.

Developed the Free-Market Economy, Invented of University System, Birthplaced Modern Science, Founded for Western Rule of Law, Patron of Master Artists & Musicians, Renaissance works of Modern Glorious periods....  yes.. and also caused the dark ages..   Human kind lost 1000 years because of the RCC.


The Church Still Preserves Humanity- teachings of sanctity of life. ...   so do a lot of other people who are much less religious then the RCC.

And Fought Off Muslim Saracens.... we were never commanded to take up arms in the name of Christ.. as a matter of fact Christ tells us to love our enemies.. not kill them.

Actually, no one has created my bible... I still hold the works to be 66 different letters written to different peoples at different times.  The assembling of them into a single volume has done irreparable harm to christianity over the centuries... because most christians (catholic and protestant alike) believe scripture interprets scripture and that the context and culture of when they were originally written is irrevalent.  I also believe that a lot of early christian writings shed a lot of light on what the original scriptures actually meant and how they should be interpreted.