Christian Forums

QuoteCertain passages - John 12:32, Philippians 2:11, and 1 Timothy 2:4 - are typically twisted out of context in support of universalism.

Debbie 55 that's it in a nutshell....

....They take certain passages such as those above and twist them out of context, totally ignoring the countless distinctions that Jesus Himself made!

Those distinctions are clearly made by Peter, James, John and Paul none of whom ever preached announced or stated that everyone is Saved whether they believe or not.

Those that believe and call on the Name of Jesus will be Saved ....those who do not WILL NOT

What irks me to no end is that people like Jiggy and Sherman who believe in UR use the same argument that Wiccans and atheists use against our Faith.

When they rhetorically ask the question "What kind of God would punish people" and suggest that we have a limited perspective of God's Love ....

...both UR and Pagans all converge in agreement that human accountability for the choices we make is of no concern and ultimately have no consequence on our destination.

Many Wiccans are URs and they are so because they can comfortably participate in a pseudo belief in Christ while maintaining their staunch allegiance to the deities they recognize and embrace.

Any Pagan will tell you all paths "ultimately" lead to the same destination.

UR agrees with that concept and therefore is NOT BIBLICAL

But that is my conclusion. I posted this thread to find out what other "Christians" conclude

The title could have easily been is Jehovah Witness Biblical or is Mormonism Biblical

My answer to those is YES but only according to THEIR bibles, their own tampered  versions to be specific

UR is insidious and more dangerous than both because they use our own bible against us and preclude to tell the rest of us we don't understand it.

Sherman is much more skilled in twisting the scripture than Jiggy. Thats why Jiggy is slow in responding with explanations, he's waiting for Sherman to back him up.
I could be wrong but that's how it appears.

Jiggy is impressed with Sherman because Sherman is masterful in utilizing his theological brilliance and respectful calm demeanor to tell the rest of us how illiterate of the Bible we are.

The problem is the rest of us include all the great Christian thinkers of all time, every great teacher of the gospel of every stripe and denomination from the apostles on forward to the present great men and women of God.
 
I don't believe either Jiggy or Sherman have exceeded any of them...or us in revelatory understanding of The Gospel of Christ
   

Quote from: jiggyfly on Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 13:24:53

Quote from: Dayvd on Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 11:13:07

Quote from: jiggyflyWhere shall we start?

Personally I'd like to hear you, Sherman or one of the others provide a clear explanation of you belief.  I think I've seen enough that it's pretty clear that those who disagree are somewhat confused about what ya'll are saying.

After that I'd suggest posting the 5 strongest Biblical passages that support your belief.

Sure thing I will work on it tonight when I get home, it may be tomorrow before I post it though, so  your patience is appreciated.

Not a problem Jiggy.  Better to take yer time and get it right the first time.

Quote from: jiggyfly on Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 14:04:23
But you answered yes to my questions earlier imply that you agree that Jesus accomplished what He was sent to do, He was sent to save the world. You also agreed that Father works everything according to his will and purpose and His will is that noone perish. So do you agree that all will be reconciled?

The Bible does not state that everyone will be reconciled.  It states very clearly that some will not believe and they will die.

I'm going to be blunt, here, because you are ignoring the scriptures that show universalism is a false doctrine.

Universalism is a false doctrine.

The only way to get to our Father is through Jesus Christ.  If you do not accept him by the time He returns for His bride, then you will be left out in the cold.  Matt 25 applies here.

To claim that everybody will be saved is to claim you do not need Jesus and that definitely qualifies as false teaching.

In Christ,
KP

Quote from: BondServant on Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 14:12:20

Quote from: jiggyfly on Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 14:04:23

Quote from: BondServant on Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 13:56:25

Quote from: jiggyfly on Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 13:22:49

Quote from: BondServant on Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 13:09:39

Quote from: jiggyfly on Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 05:49:03

Quote from: BondServant on Sun Nov 22, 2009 - 20:40:08

Quote from: gospel on Fri Nov 20, 2009 - 17:45:48

Is Universalism Biblical?

No.

In Christ,
Bond

Do you know the scriptures?

Do you believe that Christ succeeded in what He was sent to do? Do you believe that God works everything according to His will and purpose?

Yes, yes an yes.  The answer to the original question is still no.

In Christ,
Bond

So then you don't believe that Christ was sent to save the world or that It is Gods will for none to perish. I hope you know that your belief conflicts with scripture.

That is a pretty presumptuous statement.  You do not even know what my beliefs are.

I'll be nice and tell you my beliefs, and then you prove they conflict with Scripture.

I believe the only way to get to our Father in Heaven is through Jesus Christ.

Prove me wrong.

In Christ,
Bond

Why would I want to prove you wrong? I agree with you on this point anbd have never said anything to the contrary.

But you answered yes to my questions earlier imply that you agree that Jesus accomplished what He was sent to do, He was sent to save the world. You also agreed that Father works everything according to his will and purpose and His will is that noone perish. So do you agree that all will be reconciled?

The Bible does not state that everyone will be reconciled.  It states very clearly that some will not believe and they will die.

I'm going to be blunt, here, because you are ignoring the scriptures that show universalism is a false doctrine.

Universalism is a false doctrine.

The only way to get to our Father is through Jesus Christ.  If you do not accept him by the time He returns for His bride, then you will be left out in the cold.  Matt 25 applies here.

To claim that everybody will be saved is to claim you do not need Jesus and that definitely qualifies as false teaching.

In Christ,
KP

Amen!

Quote from: gospel on Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 14:05:31

QuoteCertain passages - John 12:32, Philippians 2:11, and 1 Timothy 2:4 - are typically twisted out of context in support of universalism.

Debbie 55 that's it in a nutshell....

....They take certain passages such as those above and twist them out of context, totally ignoring the countless distinctions that Jesus Himself made!

Those distinctions are clearly made by Peter, James, John and Paul none of whom ever preached announced or stated that everyone is Saved whether they believe or not.

Those that believe and call on the Name of Jesus will be Saved ....those who do not WILL NOT

What irks me to no end is that people like Jiggy and Sherman who believe in UR use the same argument that Wiccans and atheists use against our Faith.

When they rhetorically ask the question "What kind of God would punish people" and suggest that we have a limited perspective of God's Love ....

...both UR and Pagans all converge in agreement that human accountability for the choices we make is of no concern and ultimately have no consequence on our destination.

Many Wiccans are URs and they are so because they can comfortably participate in a pseudo belief in Christ while maintaining their staunch allegiance to the deities they recognize and embrace.

Any Pagan will tell you all paths "ultimately" lead to the same destination.

UR agrees with that concept and therefore is NOT BIBLICAL

But that is my conclusion. I posted this thread to find out what other "Christians" conclude

The title could have easily been is Jehovah Witness Biblical or is Mormonism Biblical

My answer is only according to their bibles..

UR is insidious and more dangerous than both because they use our own bible against us and preclude to tell the rest of us we don't understand it.

Sherman is much more skilled in twisting the scripture than Jiggy. Thats why Jiggy is slow in responding with explanations, he's waiting for Sherman to back him up.
I could be wrong but that's how it appears.

Jiggy is impressed with Sherman because Sherman is masterful in utilizing his theological brilliance and respectful calm demeanor to tell the rest of us how illiterate of the Bible we are.

The problem is the rest of us include all the great Christian thinkers of all time, every great teacher of the gospel of every stripe and denomination from the apostles on forward to the present great men and women of God.
 
   

Yes Gospel, Sherman and some others here have impressed me,I am sorry if you are offended that your not one of those who have impressed me. It seems you just can't bear the thought that God could show mercy to those you think are unworthy. I find your attitude and your ignorance of the scriptures and Father's character most revealing.

Quote from: BondServant on Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 14:12:20

Quote from: jiggyfly on Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 14:04:23
But you answered yes to my questions earlier imply that you agree that Jesus accomplished what He was sent to do, He was sent to save the world. You also agreed that Father works everything according to his will and purpose and His will is that noone perish. So do you agree that all will be reconciled?

The Bible does not state that everyone will be reconciled.  It states very clearly that some will not believe and they will die.

I'm going to be blunt, here, because you are ignoring the scriptures that show universalism is a false doctrine.

Universalism is a false doctrine.

The only way to get to our Father is through Jesus Christ.  If you do not accept him by the time He returns for His bride, then you will be left out in the cold.  Matt 25 applies here.

To claim that everybody will be saved is to claim you do not need Jesus and that definitely qualifies as false teaching.

In Christ,
KP

Have you ever read Paul's letter to the Colossians? You may want to read it and hurry and edit your last post. I'll even help you a little, read Colossians 2:19 and 20.

QuoteYes Gospel, Sherman and some others here have impressed me,I am sorry if you are offended that your not one of those who have impressed me.

Not concerned with impressing you but rather out of compassion, through the Love shed abroad in my heart by the Holy Spirit to gently lead you back into the fold. Actually that's incorrect because you believe in Christ already so you are in the fold.

So actually I'm concerned that you are doing yourself, the Lord and others a great dis-service by telling others they are Saved whether they believe in Jesus or not. That is a very dangerous thing to teach and puts you in league and agreement with a lot of very scary beliefs. You should be "REALLY" concerned that you agree with those who are staunch pagans and wiccans. If you are not I am for you on your behalf

QuoteIt seems you just can't bear the thought that God could show mercy to those you think are unworthy. I find your attitude and your ignorance of the scriptures and Father's character most revealing.

It seems you can't understand God has shown mercy and love ON HIS TERMS not according to yours, not according to humanistic altruism or the wisdom of men but according to His Good pleasure and purpose with the end result being.....
.... Those who belong to Him who have answered the Call and accepted the Invitation to the Banquet that desire to fellowship with Him for eternity.

No one will be attending the banquet as a result of changing their mind after being punished first ...that's RIDICULOUS and actually contradicts your entire premise of a Loving God.
Even by human standards it doesn't make sense to punish a person to make them accept your Lovingly Free Hearted UNDESERVED invitation

Quote from: gospel on Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 14:30:14

QuoteYes Gospel, Sherman and some others here have impressed me,I am sorry if you are offended that your not one of those who have impressed me.

Not concerned with impressing you but rather out of compassion, through the Love shed abroad in my heart by the Holy Spirit to gently lead you back into the fold. Actually that's incorrect because you believe in Christ already.
So actually I'm concerned that you do yourself and the Lord a dis-service telling others they are Saved whether they believe in Jesus or not. That is a very dangerous thing to teach and puts you in league and agreement with a lot of very scary beliefs. You should be "REALLY" concerned that you agree with those who are staunch pagans and wiccans. If you are not I am for you on your behalf

QuoteIt seems you just can't bear the thought that God could show mercy to those you think are unworthy. I find your attitude and your ignorance of the scriptures and Father's character most revealing.

It seems you can't understand God has shown mercy and love ON HIS TERMS not according to yours, not according to humanistic altruism or the wisdom of men but according to His Good pleasure and purpose with the end result being.....
.... Those who belong to Him who have answered the Call and accepted the Invitation to the Banquet that desire to fellowship with Him for eternity.

No one will be attending the banquet as a result of changing their mind after being punished first ...that's RIDICULOUS and actually contradicts your entire premise of a Loving God.
Even by human standards it doesn't make sense to punish a person to make them accept your Lovingly Free Hearted UNDESERVED invitation

Your simply ludicrous and you don't even know it.

Quote from: BondServant on Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 14:12:20
The Bible does not state that everyone will be reconciled.  It states very clearly that some will not believe and they will die.

I'm going to be blunt, here, because you are ignoring the scriptures that show universalism is a false doctrine.

Universalism is a false doctrine.

The only way to get to our Father is through Jesus Christ.  If you do not accept him by the time He returns for His bride, then you will be left out in the cold.  Matt 25 applies here.

To claim that everybody will be saved is to claim you do not need Jesus and that definitely qualifies as false teaching.

In Christ,
KP

Well put.

P.S. When were you bonded k-p?

Quote from: gospel on Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 14:30:14

QuoteYes Gospel, Sherman and some others here have impressed me,I am sorry if you are offended that your not one of those who have impressed me.

Not concerned with impressing you but rather out of compassion, through the Love shed abroad in my heart by the Holy Spirit to gently lead you back into the fold. Actually that's incorrect because you believe in Christ already so you are in the fold.

So actually I'm concerned that you are doing yourself, the Lord and others a great dis-service by telling others they are Saved whether they believe in Jesus or not. That is a very dangerous thing to teach and puts you in league and agreement with a lot of very scary beliefs. You should be "REALLY" concerned that you agree with those who are staunch pagans and wiccans. If you are not I am for you on your behalf

QuoteIt seems you just can't bear the thought that God could show mercy to those you think are unworthy. I find your attitude and your ignorance of the scriptures and Father's character most revealing.

It seems you can't understand God has shown mercy and love ON HIS TERMS not according to yours, not according to humanistic altruism or the wisdom of men but according to His Good pleasure and purpose with the end result being.....
.... Those who belong to Him who have answered the Call and accepted the Invitation to the Banquet that desire to fellowship with Him for eternity.

No one will be attending the banquet as a result of changing their mind after being punished first ...that's RIDICULOUS and actually contradicts your entire premise of a Loving God.
Even by human standards it doesn't make sense to punish a person to make them accept your Lovingly Free Hearted UNDESERVED invitation

Do you even read your own posts? Your the one with all the terms and limitations concerning Father's mercy and grace

Quote from: jiggyfly on Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 15:03:41

Quote from: gospel on Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 14:30:14

QuoteYes Gospel, Sherman and some others here have impressed me,I am sorry if you are offended that your not one of those who have impressed me.

Not concerned with impressing you but rather out of compassion, through the Love shed abroad in my heart by the Holy Spirit to gently lead you back into the fold. Actually that's incorrect because you believe in Christ already so you are in the fold.

So actually I'm concerned that you are doing yourself, the Lord and others a great dis-service by telling others they are Saved whether they believe in Jesus or not. That is a very dangerous thing to teach and puts you in league and agreement with a lot of very scary beliefs. You should be "REALLY" concerned that you agree with those who are staunch pagans and wiccans. If you are not I am for you on your behalf

QuoteIt seems you just can't bear the thought that God could show mercy to those you think are unworthy. I find your attitude and your ignorance of the scriptures and Father's character most revealing.

It seems you can't understand God has shown mercy and love ON HIS TERMS not according to yours, not according to humanistic altruism or the wisdom of men but according to His Good pleasure and purpose with the end result being.....
.... Those who belong to Him who have answered the Call and accepted the Invitation to the Banquet that desire to fellowship with Him for eternity.

No one will be attending the banquet as a result of changing their mind after being punished first ...that's RIDICULOUS and actually contradicts your entire premise of a Loving God.
Even by human standards it doesn't make sense to punish a person to make them accept your Lovingly Free Hearted UNDESERVED invitation

Do you e.ven read your own posts? Your the one with all the terms and limitations concerning Father's mercy and grace

Are you reading my posts?....that's the question!


My pointing out to you God's Love and Mercy are according to His terms and are not defined by your humanist understanding IS NOT putting a limitation on His Love Mercy and Grace.

His Love Mercy and Grace have been shown toward us in Jesus, the invitation has been and is being sent out to the uttermost regions of the world, to every nook and cranny of civilization.
Everyone has been invited to the banquet, the Jews first then the Gentiles. But as is common in all functions and events the invitation must be accepted.
Not only must the invitation be accepted, the guests have to be properly attired if they try to sneak in incorrectly attired they will be found out and TOSSED OUT.
I submit to you that attire is The Righteousness of Christ without which no one will be attending the Great Feast ....sorry.

According to the bible No provision will be made for those who are tossed out

The Love of God was shown in the free gift of the invitation

Read Luke 14:15-23 and Matthew 22 1-14

Here's part of Matthew 22


Matthew 22:11-14

11"But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12'Friend,' he asked, 'how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless.

13"Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

14"For many are invited, but few are chosen.

Quote from: gospel on Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 15:40:11

Quote from: jiggyfly on Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 15:03:41

Quote from: gospel on Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 14:30:14

QuoteYes Gospel, Sherman and some others here have impressed me,I am sorry if you are offended that your not one of those who have impressed me.

Not concerned with impressing you but rather out of compassion, through the Love shed abroad in my heart by the Holy Spirit to gently lead you back into the fold. Actually that's incorrect because you believe in Christ already so you are in the fold.

So actually I'm concerned that you are doing yourself, the Lord and others a great dis-service by telling others they are Saved whether they believe in Jesus or not. That is a very dangerous thing to teach and puts you in league and agreement with a lot of very scary beliefs. You should be "REALLY" concerned that you agree with those who are staunch pagans and wiccans. If you are not I am for you on your behalf

QuoteIt seems you just can't bear the thought that God could show mercy to those you think are unworthy. I find your attitude and your ignorance of the scriptures and Father's character most revealing.

It seems you can't understand God has shown mercy and love ON HIS TERMS not according to yours, not according to humanistic altruism or the wisdom of men but according to His Good pleasure and purpose with the end result being.....
.... Those who belong to Him who have answered the Call and accepted the Invitation to the Banquet that desire to fellowship with Him for eternity.

No one will be attending the banquet as a result of changing their mind after being punished first ...that's RIDICULOUS and actually contradicts your entire premise of a Loving God.
Even by human standards it doesn't make sense to punish a person to make them accept your Lovingly Free Hearted UNDESERVED invitation

Do you e.ven read your own posts? Your the one with all the terms and limitations concerning Father's mercy and grace

Are you reading my posts?....that's the question!


My pointing out to you God's Love and Mercy are according to His terms and are not defined by your humanist understanding IS NOT putting a limitation on His Love Mercy and Grace.

His Love Mercy and Grace have been shown toward us in Jesus, the invitation has been and is being sent out to the uttermost regions of the world, to every nook and cranny of civilization.
Everyone has been invited to the banquet, the Jews first then the Gentiles. But as is common in all functions and events the invitation must be accepted.
Not only must the invitation be accepted, the guests have to be properly attired if they try to sneak in incorrectly attired they will be found out and TOSSED OUT.
I submit to you that attire is The Righteousness of Christ without which no one will be attending the Great Feast ....sorry.

According to the bible No provision will be made for those who are tossed out

The Love of God was shown in the free gift of the invitation

Read Luke 14:15-23 and Matthew 22 1-14

Here's part of Matthew 22


Matthew 22:11-14

11"But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12'Friend,' he asked, 'how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless.

13"Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

14"For many are invited, but few are chosen.

QuoteWhatever. Gospel I suggest that you stop trying to lead others while you yourself are misled. Jesus called it the blind leading the blind.

According to you and the other UR-ists everyone else is blind. The problem is that every one else includes the most learned theologians, teachers, preachers, disciples and students of the bible across all denominations since the church was first started
From Baptist to Pentecostal, Methodist to Nazarene, Coptic to Greek Orthodox etc, etc etc  

That's how cults start...everybody is wrong except a choice few by way of the ol' us four and no more okie doke.

Charles Taze Russell, Mary Baker Eddy, Joseph Smith ...well you get the picture

QuoteI hope that you will see the error of your ways and listen to HolySpirit as He reveals the truth to you.  Good day to ya.

Quote from: gospel on Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 16:29:01

QuoteWhatever. Gospel I suggest that you stop trying to lead others while you yourself are misled. Jesus called it the blind leading the blind.

According to you and the other UR-ists everyone else is blind. The problem is that every one else includes the most learned theologians, teachers, preachers, disciples and students of the bible across all denominations since the church was first started
From Baptist to Pentecostal, Methodist to Nazarene, Coptic to Greek Orthodox etc, etc etc 

That's how cults start...everybody is wrong except a choice few by way of the ol' us four and no more okie doke.

Charles Taze Russell, Mary Baker Eddy, Joseph Smith ...well you get the picture

QuoteI hope that you will see the error of your ways and listen to HolySpirit as He reveals the truth to you.  Good day to ya.

Seems you are as ignorant of Church history as you are of UR, study the history of the early church Gospel.

Jiggyfly

  What are the five strongest or best verses that you would use to support universalism?

GTM

Quote from: gospel on Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 14:05:31
Those distinctions are clearly made by Peter, James, John and Paul none of whom ever preached announced or stated that everyone is Saved whether they believe or not.

Those that believe and call on the Name of Jesus will be Saved ....those who do not WILL NOT

As a believer in the ultimate salvation of all mankind I believe what you have said here is true.  All mankind is not already saved and won't be until they bow the knee, and I believe that can happen after death as well as in this lifetime. What I do believe is that all mankind has already been reconciled by the blood of Christ which paves the way, and Christ being the Way, for all to be eventually saved during the ages to come.

QuoteWhat irks me to no end is that people like Jiggy and Sherman who believe in UR use the same argument that Wiccans and atheists use against our Faith.

It's not just UR's and Wiccans who come up with that argument, but most unbelievers and agnostics and a lot of christians who have not come out of the closet for fear of being classed as heretical. There's a lot of peer group pressure (fear of man) in the organized Church. There are many spread through the orthodox denominations who believe in the great hope.

QuoteWhen they rhetorically ask the question "What kind of God would punish people" and suggest that we have a limited perspective of God's Love ....

I think you will find most UR's believe in God's punishment, just that it's not endless.

Quote...both UR and Pagans all converge in agreement that human accountability for the choices we make is of no concern and ultimately have no consequence on our destination.

I hope you are not lumping Christian Universalists in with the Unitarian Universalists. There is a difference. Christian Universalists believe that there is only ONE Way to eternal life, and that through Christ. Unitarians mostly don't, and Wiccans are usually Unitarian Universalists.

QuoteMany Wiccans are URs and they are so because they can comfortably participate in a pseudo belief in Christ while maintaining their staunch allegiance to the deities they recognize and embrace.

No, Wiccan's are usually Unitarian Universalists. I have believed in the ultimate salvation of all for nearly four years now and have not come across one Wiccan who is a Christian Universalist.

QuoteAny Pagan will tell you all paths "ultimately" lead to the same destination.

UR agrees with that concept and therefore is NOT BIBLICAL

This is not true, and you believe this because you are still very unfamiliar with who UR's are and what they believe.

QuoteUR is insidious and more dangerous than both because they use our own bible against us and preclude to tell the rest of us we don't understand it.

Jesus was considered dangerous too, but He came with the LOVE of God to show us the Way.

It's amazing how preaching about the love of God can be considered so dangerous. 

QuoteSherman is much more skilled in twisting the scripture than Jiggy. Thats why Jiggy is slow in responding with explanations, he's waiting for Sherman to back him up.
I could be wrong but that's how it appears.

One could have a bit more understanding too I guess... it's very hard to be the lone voice in a thread with so many against what you are trying to share. It can become very tiring answering so many people so quickly.

Quote
The problem is the rest of us include all the great Christian thinkers of all time, every great teacher of the gospel of every stripe and denomination from the apostles on forward to the present great men and women of God.
 
I don't believe either Jiggy or Sherman have exceeded any of them...or us in revelatory understanding of The Gospel of Christ

There have been many great scholars over the history of the Church who believed in UR. Take Sir William Barclay for one example, he passed on a few years ago but was a great theologian and Greek scholar and was accepted by orthodoxy. However, one doesn't need to be a theologian or Greek scholar to be taught by Holy Spirit, wouldn't you agree?

   

Quote from: gospel on Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 15:40:11

Quote from: jiggyfly on Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 15:03:41

Quote from: gospel on Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 14:30:14

QuoteYes Gospel, Sherman and some others here have impressed me,I am sorry if you are offended that your not one of those who have impressed me.

Not concerned with impressing you but rather out of compassion, through the Love shed abroad in my heart by the Holy Spirit to gently lead you back into the fold. Actually that's incorrect because you believe in Christ already so you are in the fold.

So actually I'm concerned that you are doing yourself, the Lord and others a great dis-service by telling others they are Saved whether they believe in Jesus or not. That is a very dangerous thing to teach and puts you in league and agreement with a lot of very scary beliefs. You should be "REALLY" concerned that you agree with those who are staunch pagans and wiccans. If you are not I am for you on your behalf

QuoteIt seems you just can't bear the thought that God could show mercy to those you think are unworthy. I find your attitude and your ignorance of the scriptures and Father's character most revealing.

It seems you can't understand God has shown mercy and love ON HIS TERMS not according to yours, not according to humanistic altruism or the wisdom of men but according to His Good pleasure and purpose with the end result being.....
.... Those who belong to Him who have answered the Call and accepted the Invitation to the Banquet that desire to fellowship with Him for eternity.

No one will be attending the banquet as a result of changing their mind after being punished first ...that's RIDICULOUS and actually contradicts your entire premise of a Loving God.
Even by human standards it doesn't make sense to punish a person to make them accept your Lovingly Free Hearted UNDESERVED invitation

Do you e.ven read your own posts? Your the one with all the terms and limitations concerning Father's mercy and grace

Are you reading my posts?....that's the question!


My pointing out to you God's Love and Mercy are according to His terms and are not defined by your humanist understanding IS NOT putting a limitation on His Love Mercy and Grace.

His Love Mercy and Grace have been shown toward us in Jesus, the invitation has been and is being sent out to the uttermost regions of the world, to every nook and cranny of civilization.
Everyone has been invited to the banquet, the Jews first then the Gentiles. But as is common in all functions and events the invitation must be accepted.
Not only must the invitation be accepted, the guests have to be properly attired if they try to sneak in incorrectly attired they will be found out and TOSSED OUT.
I submit to you that attire is The Righteousness of Christ without which no one will be attending the Great Feast ....sorry.

According to the bible No provision will be made for those who are tossed out

The Love of God was shown in the free gift of the invitation

Read Luke 14:15-23 and Matthew 22 1-14

Here's part of Matthew 22


Matthew 22:11-14

11"But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12'Friend,' he asked, 'how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless.

13"Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

14"For many are invited, but few are chosen.

chezandlilly

you posted

QuoteWhat I do believe is that all mankind has already been reconciled by the blood of Christ which paves the way, and Christ being the Way, for all to be eventually saved during the ages to come.

What Biblical text would you use to support that all mankind has already been saved?

GTM

Quote from: GTM on Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 07:27:35
chezandlilly

you posted

QuoteWhat I do believe is that all mankind has already been reconciled by the blood of Christ which paves the way, and Christ being the Way, for all to be eventually saved during the ages to come.

What Biblical text would you use to support that all mankind has already been saved?

GTM

Do you want text that says they've already been saved, or reconciled?

QuoteMany Wiccans are URs and they are so because they can comfortably participate in a pseudo belief in Christ while maintaining their staunch allegiance to the deities they recognize and embrace.

QuoteNo, Wiccan's are usually Unitarian Universalists. I have believed in the ultimate salvation of all for nearly four years now and have not come across one Wiccan who is a Christian Universalist.

Yeah but you are under the mistaken belief that there is a difference between Unitarian Universalists and Christian Universalists....I am not.
They are one in the same saying the same thing except that one uses the Name of Jesus.
They are one in the same because bottom line, both groups are saying all people will "ultimately" be saved whether they accept and believe in Christ or not. Jesus did not say that and that is not Biblical  

Quote
Any Pagan will tell you all paths "ultimately" lead to the same destination.

UR agrees with that concept and therefore is NOT BIBLICAL

QuoteThis is not true, and you believe this because you are still very unfamiliar with who UR's are and what they believe.

If you believe everyone will be Saved even though they do not accept profess and believe in Christ...you indeed believe the same thing as a Unitarian and thereby the same thing as a Wiccan    

Quote

QuoteMany Wiccans are URs and they are so because they can comfortably participate in a pseudo belief in Christ while maintaining their staunch allegiance to the deities they recognize and embrace.

No, Wiccan's are usually Unitarian Universalists. I have believed in the ultimate salvation of all for nearly four years now and have not come across one Wiccan who is a Christian Universalist.

That is because they are honest about what they believe. They are sure Christ has nothing to do with it, you guys on the other hand believe Christ will Save even them. You say pot-A-toe they say po-TAH-to...in the end its the same!

Quote

QuoteUR is insidious and more dangerous than both because they use our own bible against us and preclude to tell the rest of us we don't understand it.

Jesus was considered dangerous too, but He came with the LOVE of God to show us the Way.
It's amazing how preaching about the love of God can be considered so dangerous.

Whats amazing and dangerous is how URs redefine the Love of God according to their own limited human understanding of God's Love.
God's Love has been demonstrated in what He has done by providing a way for those who believe, receive and ACCEPT HIS Invitation to Salvation. The Love is demonstrated in the INVITATION OF ALL with no preconditions other than ACCEPTING IT.God is not in the business of making people ACCEPT HIM or Love Him if he were, we wouldn't be having this discussion because Adam would have been created with NO CHOICE other than to OBEY and to LOVE GOD   
A NON BELIEVER must have a PERSONAL REVELATION of Jesus, it cannot be coerced, reasoned or punished into them. If you think it can than you totally mis-characterize and redefined the Love of God according to what you think Love should be according to what you think is fair  


For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. Matthew 25:29

Contemplate on the above verse. Please keep in mind these are the Words of The Lord Jesus.
Now consider this...in human terms what Jesus stated in this verse is totally unfair, unloving and unkind. In God's terms it is Just, Right and Truth.
If a person does not have a personal revelation of Jesus or even a basic belief in God, the mo0re they subsist in rebelling, in building an argument and a case for what THEY think and against God, they will continue to stray further and further away from any possibility of spending eternity with Him.

The Love of God professed by UR falls short of its own lofty human ideal in that UR professes that people will eventually Love God by means of an afterlife punishment.  

I've been off-line for a few days and will likely be off the rest of the week, so please pardon me if I do not respond quickly.  As one who believes that Jesus not only saved/saves me, but also saves everyone else, I'll note some significant errors in the OP.

First note that the term Universalism is a big word covering a wide range of theological beliefs.  In fact, there are Christian Universalists and Non-Christian Universalists.  Christian Universalism is often referred to as Universal Reconciliation and is the perspective from which I'll be critiquing the Opening post/Article.

Quote from: gospel on Fri Nov 20, 2009 - 17:45:48

Is Universalism Biblical?

From an article published by Reasoning from the Scriptures Ministry

       Universalism states that sooner or later all people will be saved. This position holds that the concepts of hell and punishment are inconsistent with a loving God.

Christian Universalism does believe that all people "were/are/shall be" saved because of the sacrifice of Christ.  Salvation is completely a work of Grace for us all, especially us who believe.  God is the Father of all humanity and will work things out so that not one of His children shall be lost, but all shall be reconciled to Him.  

The above quote is errant in that Christian Universalists do believe in "punishment" of sin; it's just we believe that when God punishes sin it is for our good, to change us, not to just inflict punishment.  Sin is punished both in this life and in the eternal realm (life to come, afterlife, olam haba, aionios...).

The above is correct in that we do not believe in "Hell", primarily because scripture does not teach of such a place. If you'll notice, English versions are progressively correcting the early mistranslations of scripture into English.  In fact, not a single word in biblical Hebrew or Greek means "Hell".  Sheol and Hades simply means grave.  Tartaroo is only used once and though understood to be a place of torture in Greek Mythology, scripturally it is referred to as only for the devil and his angels and is said to only last until judgment.  And of course, Jesus warned of Gehenna (Jerusalem's trash dump) which was understood by 1st Century Jews to be a theological metaphor of punishment in the afterlife similar to the Catholic concept of Purgatory.  Thus Jesus' words concerning punishment in the afterlife should be understood in that light - a place/event of purification and healing of the souls of humanity, enabling people to abide in the presence of absolute undeniable Truth!

Quote
       The older form of universalism, originating in the second century, taught that salvation would come after a temporary period of punishment. The newer form of universalism declares that all men are now saved, though all do not realize it. Therefore the job of the preacher and the missionary is to tell people they are already saved. Certain passages - John 12:32, Philippians 2:11, and 1 Timothy 2:4 - are typically twisted out of context in support of universalism.

Actually, the old form and the new form are the same, just differing terminology.  It's challenging to speak of eternal matters using temporal terminology.  From the perspective of the spiritual time-transcending realm of God, salvation is a settled matter, something that "IS", "Was" and "Shall be", but predominantly something that "IS".  From our earthly temporal perspective, salvation is a settled matter, something that "IS" for some and "shall be" for others.    Both affirm that the sacrifice of Christ is the pivotal point of History that effects the salvation, the Reconciliation of all humanity to God.  

QuoteSuch passages, interpreted properly, do not support universalism:

           * John 12:32 says that Christ's work on the cross makes possible the salvation of both Jews and Gentiles. Notice, however, that the Lord - in the same passage - warned of judgment of those who reject Christ (v. 48).

Concerning passages being "twisted out of context" to support universalism, actually it is Universalists that appeal to the most evident meaning of these passages.  For example, in Jn.12.32 Jesus says that when He is lifted up, He'll draw all of humanity to Himself.  The Universalists find great comfort in this verse because Jesus specifically says that through His sacrifice He'll draw all humanity to Himself. Salvation is completely a work of Grace.  And Universalists also note that Judgment is mentioned in the passage, but of course we understand judgment to be Remedial and not vindictive; a person's works/life is judged, evil is burnt up, and only the good is left and even it is purified.  In Jn.12, Jesus says that "Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out."  Notice that the purpose of judgment is to drive out evil!  Frankly, the fires of judgment burns the evil/hell out of us.  At least, this is what the context actually says.

Quote* Philippians 2:10-11 assures us that someday all people will acknowledge that Jesus is Lord, but not necessarily as Savior. (Even those in hell will have to acknowledge Christ's Lordship.)

Note that "not necessarily as Savior" is not part of the actual wording of the text or the context.  In fact, consistently through scripture, the acts of bowing and confessing are seen in a positive light, not a dark shadow.  In the light of eternity and the absolute light of truth and revelation of the sacrifice of Christ, who could help but respond in love, adoration, and faith.  Doesn't scripture elsewhere say that a person can only confess Christ by the Spirit!  

Concerning those in "Hell" acknowledging Christ's Lordship, scripture actually says that when Jesus died he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 1 Peter 3:18-20 and 4.6"18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. .... 4.6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.  

So Jesus preached to the spirits in prison, even those who lived during the most wicked and evil time of all human history, the time right before the flood when of the billions of humans alive then and every thought was evil continually, and only one family was found to have faith.  And what was Jesus anointed to preach except "deliverance for the captives"!  So Jesus preached to them so that their flesh, selfishness, could be destroyed and yet their spirits could Live!  Even judgment of these, the most wicked and evil of all humanity ends in their salvation!  Hallelujah!

Quote* First Timothy 2:4 expresses God's desire that all be saved, but does not promise that all will be. This divine desire is only realized in those who exercise faith in Christ.

True, 1 Tim.2.4 only notes that God wants all people to be saved; but 4:10 goes on to say that in fact God is the Savior of all humanity, especially us who believe.  Note that it says "especially", not "only".  "Especially" indicates "part of the whole", not separation but inclusion.  So yes God desires all to be saved, ergo He saves everyone, and is the Savior of all humanity.

There are many such scriptures that indicate that salvation is completely based on the goodness and forgiveness of God and sacrifice of Christ!  On of my favorites is Rom. 5.18

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Note that it is the sacrifice of Christ that effects the salvation of all humanity.  In fact, the sacrifice of Christ is greater than the sin of Adam.  The sin of Adam not only resulted in death for all of humanity, but also resulted in all of humanity sinning.  The sacrifice of Christ not only triumphs over the one sin of Adam that plunged all of humanity into death; the sacrifice of Christ even triumphs over all the subsequent sinnnnsssss of humanity bringing us all into Life!

QuoteThe Scriptures consistently categorize people into one of two classes (saved/unsaved, also called believers/unbelievers), and portray the final destiny of every person as being one of two realities (heaven or hell).

The scriptures speak of both of "all of humanity" and "segments of humanity"; it does not only or "consistently" categorize people.  It speaks from both an eternal and a temporal perspective.  It speaks of both the judgment of people (all humanity) and the judgment of works (how we live).  It's important to look at what each scripture actually says.  

Of course, one thing scripture does NOT speak of is "Hell"!  In fact, the English word "Hell" should not even be in English translations of Scripture.  Not one word in the original texts of scripture means Hell, not Sheol, not Hades, not Tartaroo, not Gehenna.  Modern translations are getting better as they correctly interpret these.  The word "Infernum" (Latin for Hell) was translated INTO scripture by St. Jerome in his Latin Vulgate 110 times.  This Mistranslation of scripture is being progressively corrected, Hallelujah!  To put it plainly, the concept of God either torturing or allowing any of His beloved creation to forever exist in sin and death is NOT a biblical concept.  Let's do look at the scriptures he notes in the following.

Quote* In Matthew 13:30 Jesus in a parable said, "Let both [tares and wheat] grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn." Here unbelievers and believers are spoken of as tares and wheat. Two classes!

Yes, Mt. 13.30 speaks of two divisions of people, but just prior to this in 13.1-23, the parable of the Sower, there are four divisions of people - not Two classes.  In fact, it's talking about 4 different responses to the word, and who of us is not guilty of responding to the word in all 4 of those ways - indifference (hard ground), fear (thorny ground),  indecision (rocky ground), and faith (good ground)!

Quote* In Matthew 13:49 Jesus said, "This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous." Again, two classes are mentioned - unbelievers and believers spoken of as the wicked and the righteous.

First note that the separation being spoken of can very well be (should be, I believe) interpreted as a separation of righteous things in our lives verses wicked things.  We all have good and bad in us, but some day the Lord will judge us all.  The good things will be purified and the bad things will be burnt up.  And because of the bad things, we'll all likely have some repenting (weeping) and remorse (gnashing of teeth) to go through.

Quote
           * In Matthew 25:32 Jesus said that following His second coming, "All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." Here believers and unbelievers are differentiated by the terms "sheep" and "goats." The sheep will enter into God's kingdom (vs. 34) and inherit eternal life (vs. 46). The goats go into eternal punishment (vs. 46).

Actually, it's not "believers" and "unbelievers", but those who "treat well the less fortunate" vs. those who do not "treat well the less fortunate".  I don't know about you, but there are many times when I should have done something good for someone, but did not do so.  We are not only held accountable for what we did but also for what we should have done.  Based on this scripture, who among us can claim to be a "sheep" for we've all missed plenty of opportunities to bless others!

Thank God that salvation is not based on what we do good or bad, but it is based on the precious blood of Christ that He shed for all of humanity!

Quote
           * In Luke 16:26 we find Abraham in the afterlife telling the unsaved rich man: "Between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us." Hades apparently had two compartments: "paradise" for the saved, and "torments" for the unsaved - and these compartments were separated by a great chasm or gulf.

Again, note what this scripture actually says, note that the reason the rich man suffered in the afterlife was because he was rich, and the reason that Lazarus was comforted in the afterlife was because he suffered so much in this life.  This scripture speaks of the justice of God, speaking comfort to those of us who suffer terribly, and a warning to those of us who are well off in this life!  It's also important to recognize that the Jews would have understood Jesus to be speaking of Gehenna that the rich man was in, a place of fiery purification where one encounters the fire of Truth about there lives, where there will be terrible repentance (weeping) and terrible remorse (gnashing of teeth)!  The first century Jew would have understood this though to be Remedial punishment that one goes through on their way to Ga Eden, and the rich man would have later been admitted to Ga Eden, Abraham's boosom, heaven.  It is very important to understand the Context of the passage.

Quote
       Clearly, then, the Scriptures speak of two classes of people (the saved and the unsaved) and two possible destinies (heaven for the saved; hell for the unsaved). And each respective person ends up in one of these places based upon whether or not he or she placed saving faith in Christ during his or her time on earth (Acts 16:31).

Sadly, the author of this article misinterprets the passages he's quoting and doesn't interpret them based on their context, even their immediate literary context.  Concerning Acts 16.31, note that it's talking about the need for faith for us to be saved today, in the temporal.  For us to embrace and experience in the Now (the temporal) the salvation that Christ has purchased for us all in the eternal, we need to have faith.  But faith is not about us getting into heaven, but about getting heaven into us!  

Well, I've got to go now and don't know when I'll get back to this so please pardon me if you don't hear from me for a week or so.

Blessings,
Sherman

Quote from: chezandlilly on Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 06:51:19

Quote from: gospel on Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 15:40:11

Quote from: jiggyfly on Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 15:03:41

Quote from: gospel on Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 14:30:14

QuoteYes Gospel, Sherman and some others here have impressed me,I am sorry if you are offended that your not one of those who have impressed me.

Not concerned with impressing you but rather out of compassion, through the Love shed abroad in my heart by the Holy Spirit to gently lead you back into the fold. Actually that's incorrect because you believe in Christ already so you are in the fold.

So actually I'm concerned that you are doing yourself, the Lord and others a great dis-service by telling others they are Saved whether they believe in Jesus or not. That is a very dangerous thing to teach and puts you in league and agreement with a lot of very scary beliefs. You should be "REALLY" concerned that you agree with those who are staunch pagans and wiccans. If you are not I am for you on your behalf

QuoteIt seems you just can't bear the thought that God could show mercy to those you think are unworthy. I find your attitude and your ignorance of the scriptures and Father's character most revealing.

It seems you can't understand God has shown mercy and love ON HIS TERMS not according to yours, not according to humanistic altruism or the wisdom of men but according to His Good pleasure and purpose with the end result being.....
.... Those who belong to Him who have answered the Call and accepted the Invitation to the Banquet that desire to fellowship with Him for eternity.

No one will be attending the banquet as a result of changing their mind after being punished first ...that's RIDICULOUS and actually contradicts your entire premise of a Loving God.
Even by human standards it doesn't make sense to punish a person to make them accept your Lovingly Free Hearted UNDESERVED invitation

Do you e.ven read your own posts? Your the one with all the terms and limitations concerning Father's mercy and grace

Are you reading my posts?....that's the question!


My pointing out to you God's Love and Mercy are according to His terms and are not defined by your humanist understanding IS NOT putting a limitation on His Love Mercy and Grace.

His Love Mercy and Grace have been shown toward us in Jesus, the invitation has been and is being sent out to the uttermost regions of the world, to every nook and cranny of civilization.
Everyone has been invited to the banquet, the Jews first then the Gentiles. But as is common in all functions and events the invitation must be accepted.
Not only must the invitation be accepted, the guests have to be properly attired if they try to sneak in incorrectly attired they will be found out and TOSSED OUT.
I submit to you that attire is The Righteousness of Christ without which no one will be attending the Great Feast ....sorry.

According to the bible No provision will be made for those who are tossed out

The Love of God was shown in the free gift of the invitation

Read Luke 14:15-23 and Matthew 22 1-14

Here's part of Matthew 22


Matthew 22:11-14

11"But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12'Friend,' he asked, 'how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless.

13"Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

14"For many are invited, but few are chosen.

QuoteAgain, note what this scripture actually says, note that the reason the rich man suffered in the afterlife was because he was rich, and the reason that Lazarus was comforted in the afterlife was because he suffered so much in this life.  This scripture speaks of the justice of God, speaking comfort to those of us who suffer terribly, and a warning to those of us who are well off in this life!  It's also important to recognize that the Jews would have understood Jesus to be speaking of Gehenna that the rich man was in, a place of fiery purification where one encounters the fire of Truth about there lives, where there will be terrible repentance (weeping) and terrible remorse (gnashing of teeth)!  The first century Jew would have understood this though to be Remedial punishment that one goes through on their way to Ga Eden, and the rich man would have later been admitted to Ga Eden, Abraham's boosom, heaven.  It is very important to understand the Context of the passage.

Nonsense!

It is a preponderance of words yet you're trying validate something that is completely and utterly incorrect!

Take this one statement above...its totally wrong!!!



Now Abram was very rich in livestock, in silver and in gold. Genesis 13:2

Did you not know ABRAHAM WAS RICH? Are you trying to tell us he suffered too?

Wow 

Quote from: GTM on Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 20:23:19
Jiggyfly

  What are the five strongest or best verses that you would use to support universalism?

GTM

GTM there has been three of us now that have asked Jiggyfly to post the scriptures that support universalism, but he has yet to post them and allows Sherman to speak for him and I am not even going to start with the misinterpretations of scripture from Sherman as this is only going to lead in more argument and foolishness and does not bring any glory to God when we argue and debate what God has already said. I will leave this topic with these scriptures and allow people to make up their own mind what they want to believe as even though it is a freewill choice, but the choices we make can be devastating to where we spend eternity.

Hos 4:6  My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hos 4:7  As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

John 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.



 

Quote from: Debbie_55 on Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 11:39:42

Quote from: GTM on Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 20:23:19
Jiggyfly

  What are the five strongest or best verses that you would use to support universalism?

GTM

GTM there has been three of us now that have asked Jiggyfly to post the scriptures that support universalism, but he has yet to post them and allows Sherman to speak for him and I am not even going to start with the misinterpretations of scripture from Sherman as this is only going to lead in more argument and foolishness and does not bring any glory to God when we argue and debate what God has already said. I will leave this topic with these scriptures and allow people to make up their own mind what they want to believe as even though it is a freewill choice, but the choices we make can be devastating to where we spend eternity.

Hos 4:6  My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hos 4:7  As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

John 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.



 

 

Quote from: Debbie_55 on Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 11:39:42

Quote from: GTM on Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 20:23:19
Jiggyfly

 What are the five strongest or best verses that you would use to support universalism?

GTM

GTM there has been three of us now that have asked Jiggyfly to post the scriptures that support universalism, but he has yet to post them and allows Sherman to speak for him and I am not even going to start with the misinterpretations of scripture from Sherman as this is only going to lead in more argument and foolishness and does not bring any glory to God when we argue and debate what God has already said. I will leave this topic with these scriptures and allow people to make up their own mind what they want to believe as even though it is a freewill choice, but the choices we make can be devastating to where we spend eternity.

Hos 4:6  My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hos 4:7  As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

John 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.



 

Debbie try reading post #2and #3 of this thread.

I've come to the conclusion that I could post a gazillion scriptures that support UR and some would just ignore the posts and respond with "can you post scripture?"

Quote from: jiggyfly on Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 15:26:36

Quote from: Debbie_55 on Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 11:39:42

Quote from: GTM on Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 20:23:19
Jiggyfly

 What are the five strongest or best verses that you would use to support universalism?

GTM

GTM there has been three of us now that have asked Jiggyfly to post the scriptures that support universalism, but he has yet to post them and allows Sherman to speak for him and I am not even going to start with the misinterpretations of scripture from Sherman as this is only going to lead in more argument and foolishness and does not bring any glory to God when we argue and debate what God has already said. I will leave this topic with these scriptures and allow people to make up their own mind what they want to believe as even though it is a freewill choice, but the choices we make can be devastating to where we spend eternity.

Hos 4:6  My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hos 4:7  As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

John 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.



 

Debbie try reading post #2and #3 of this thread.

I've come to the conclusion that I could post a gazillion scriptures that support UR and some would just ignore the posts and respond with "can you post scripture?"

Maybe because there is no scripture that supersedes what Jesus said

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned[/i], but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

What I love about this verse is that the word "believe" is used 3 times. Also please note the word Condemned is not in any way modified in any way to be seen or defined as temporary

The John the Baptist someone we can consider pretty much an authority on the Messiah which he dedicated His Life work to prepare others...sealed the whole matter with the following verse.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

Quote from: gospel on Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 16:04:40
Maybe because there is no scripture that supersedes what Jesus said

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned[/i], but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

What I love about this verse is that the word "believe" is used 3 times. Also please note the word Condemned is not in any way modified in any way to be seen or defined as temporary

The John the Baptist someone we can consider pretty much an authority on the Messiah which he dedicated His Life work to prepare others...sealed the whole matter with the following verse.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”

If I am not mistaken it says clearly they WILL NOT SEE LIFE!
Doesn't seem to hem and haw about it ...clearly says WILL NOT

When you follow that with Gods Wrath remains on that person, I think you have a clear instance where eternal damnation is clearly a destination for some.

That's the best post I've seen from you yet, gospel.

I know you feel strongly about this subject, are you equally against the idea of annihilation?

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 16:19:06

Quote from: gospel on Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 16:04:40
Maybe because there is no scripture that supersedes what Jesus said

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned[/i], but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

What I love about this verse is that the word "believe" is used 3 times. Also please note the word Condemned is not in any way modified in any way to be seen or defined as temporary

The John the Baptist someone we can consider pretty much an authority on the Messiah which he dedicated His Life work to prepare others...sealed the whole matter with the following verse.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

Quote from: gospel on Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 16:04:40

Quote from: jiggyfly on Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 15:26:36

Quote from: Debbie_55 on Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 11:39:42

Quote from: GTM on Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 20:23:19
Jiggyfly

  What are the five strongest or best verses that you would use to support universalism?

GTM

GTM there has been three of us now that have asked Jiggyfly to post the scriptures that support universalism, but he has yet to post them and allows Sherman to speak for him and I am not even going to start with the misinterpretations of scripture from Sherman as this is only going to lead in more argument and foolishness and does not bring any glory to God when we argue and debate what God has already said. I will leave this topic with these scriptures and allow people to make up their own mind what they want to believe as even though it is a freewill choice, but the choices we make can be devastating to where we spend eternity.

Hos 4:6  My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hos 4:7  As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

John 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.



 

Debbie try reading post #2and #3 of this thread.

I've come to the conclusion that I could post a gazillion scriptures that support UR and some would just ignore the posts and respond with "can you post scripture?"

Maybe because there is no scripture that supersedes what Jesus said

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned[/i], but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

What I love about this verse is that the word "believe" is used 3 times. Also please note the word Condemned is not in any way modified in any way to be seen or defined as temporary

The John the Baptist someone we can consider pretty much an authority on the Messiah which he dedicated His Life work to prepare others...sealed the whole matter with the following verse.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

Jiggyfly

  SO you have no verses that stand out in defense of your theological point of view?

We have already established that you were in error in 1 Peter. It didn't support your argument. I was looking for more concrete verses. But if you cannot provide them, that is fine also.


GTM

Quote from: GTM on Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 17:57:43
Jiggyfly

  SO you have no verses that stand out in defense of your theological point of view?

We have already established that you were in error in 1 Peter. It didn't support your argument. I was looking for more concrete verses. But if you cannot provide them, that is fine also.


GTM

Sure I have many scriptures but to be honest with you I really don't feel like putting time into it at this moment( lots of things to do for the holiday). Maybe next week but I'm sure it will just be ignored anyway. I posted 10 times the scriptures than those in the OP yet they are ignored.  So at any rate maybe latter on I will post.

Quote from: jiggyfly on Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 15:26:36

Quote from: Debbie_55 on Tue Nov 24, 2009 - 11:39:42

Quote from: GTM on Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 20:23:19
Jiggyfly

 What are the five strongest or best verses that you would use to support universalism?

GTM

GTM there has been three of us now that have asked Jiggyfly to post the scriptures that support universalism, but he has yet to post them and allows Sherman to speak for him and I am not even going to start with the misinterpretations of scripture from Sherman as this is only going to lead in more argument and foolishness and does not bring any glory to God when we argue and debate what God has already said. I will leave this topic with these scriptures and allow people to make up their own mind what they want to believe as even though it is a freewill choice, but the choices we make can be devastating to where we spend eternity.

Hos 4:6  My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hos 4:7  As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

John 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.



 

Debbie try reading post #2and #3 of this thread.

I've come to the conclusion that I could post a gazillion scriptures that support UR and some would just ignore the posts and respond with "can you post scripture?"

Not a single one of those verses stated that a person will be saved regardless of what they believe.

Show that from the Bible, please.

Not a single one of those verses state anything about karma or purgetory.

Show that from the Bible, please.

In Christ,
Bond

Jiggyfly

you quoted:

QuoteSure I have many scriptures but to be honest with you I really don't feel like putting time into it at this moment( lots of things to do for the holiday). Maybe next week but I'm sure it will just be ignored anyway. I posted 10 times the scriptures than those in the OP yet they are ignored.  So at any rate maybe latter on I will post.

You can be assured that I will read and study each one.

Thank You in advance

GTM

Quote from: gospel

I have a problem with annihilation only because I believe all spirit beings are eternal. I see damnation as a life sentence for spiritual criminals. Since they live forever God has to sentence them to an eternal place somewhere apart from His Presence.

Satan and his fallen angels are rebels and enemies of God, Although The eternal fire was not created for humans, those who hear the Gospel of Grace and do not turn to Christ remain in allegiance with those who have rebelled.

Matthew 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed,into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. .

Sorry to hear that Gospel.  I hope maybe at some future date we can discuss this topic in depth.

Genesis 3:22 (New International Version)

22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

Until we are allowed to eat there is no eternal life.

James 5:20 (King James Version)

 20Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

John 3:16 (New International Version)

 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Without the "gift" of the Son there is no eternal life.

Romans 6:23 (New International Version)

23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[a] Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eternal life is a gift and without that gift our lives end.

Matthew 7:13 (New International Version)

The Narrow and Wide Gates

 13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

Matthew 10:28 (New International Version)

28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Revelation 21:8 (New International Version)

8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."


2 Peter 2:12 (New International Version)

12But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.