Christian Forums

Quote from: Fallen Knight on Sun Nov 22, 2009 - 23:59:06
Please forgive me all. I lead a Christian "life". By that I mean I don't waste alot of time arguing with blind pride filled protestants who are motivated by their own unchristian pride and hatred, rather than any search for the truth of God

Let me just quote Mclees8 here regarding Ignatius of Antioch

To quote Mclees :  "No he was not Roman Catholic this is only in your head.  The church was the church then and was never referred to as the RCC by any bishop of that time. some may have fancied Rome only because Peter and Paul established churches their but that did not make all the churches of Asia Roman Catholic or look to the church of Rome as supreme. try to fool some one else. All the apostles were given the same authority but it was not a mater of pride of position. Or even a certain location."


It's only in my head is it Mclees???  Once again, your complete lack of historical proofs to back up your claims, followed by your unsubstantiated untruthful claims truthfully makes me wonder what "spirit" is actually leading you.

It is NOT from The Holy Spirit, I know that much.

Let me quote you some Ignatius Macca

"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect, that they also might rise again. It is fitting, therefore, that you should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the passion [of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved. But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils"


If you actually knew what you were talking about Macca, you wouldn't make such claims.

Ignatius' belief in the Eucharist outdates your claim regarding the Catholic church by 200yrs.

Once again, Macca, please go away and study some more before coming onto threads such as this and spruiking your anti-Catholic ( read anti-Christian )  rubbish.  You only look more and more foolish everytime you post.


Would you like me to quote some writings on The Virgin Mary and Papal authority which also outdate your claims that the Catholic Church didn't start until the 300's?

Or would you finally accept my advice to go away and study the truth, before claiming you know it?

Pax Tecum
Fallen Knight

Hello Knight. Is macca some complimentary term or are you calling me names. I didn't say it was from the Holy Spirit. Is calling me macca (what ever that means) from the Holy Spirit ?I don't why you think the use of the word Eucharist used by Ignatius Means the church was Roman Catholic at the time he used it    Why are you confused about this. Even the use of the word catholic bears no direct tie to the RCC. You need to stop making this word synonymous with the church of Rome under papal rule.   There was no papacy then that all the churches of the empire looked to as supreme authority making them all Roman catholic  The churches established in Asia were perty much autonomous I think. Please show me some writing that pre date Ignatius that the papacy was established then. I would be very interested. The church at Rome was the church at Rome, and the church at Corinth was the church at Corinth. The church at Corinth was not roman catholic was it.? Listen catholic is a word the refers to all believers and it is not synonymous with the RCC. show me if there was a papacy the that ruled religiously and politically the whole empire at the time of Ignatius.

God bless

lets get some clarification here. I am a believer in Naples Fla. I am of the same universal faiththat you are. One universal faith in Christ So I am catholic  of the church at Naples and I'm not Roman Catholic nor do I have to call myself catholic. You Night are a Catholic of the church of Rome. see what i mean.

Eucharist is a term for the Last Supper which we honer and remember Christ. Not all call it Eucharist. Ignatius used the word Eucharist and other Bishops used it. but all this was before the papacy that ruled the empire. They have tried to make you thing the the papacy of Rome which ruled the empire. always was the church but it is deception. The church is the church whether you use the word Eucharist or the term Catholic.

Both words are just terms and not law. know one has to call themselves Catholic to be a believer. Not even you. Nor doo they have to call communion Eucharist. This is just common sense rational thinking.

God bless 
     

QuoteAmos, I cannot find anything in Catholic literature that says all this in your post.  Let's take a close look at some of the things you wrote.   So instead of copy and past, why don't you list your source?  Here is what the Popes ACTUALLY wrote, which is recorded in Catholic literature.  Funny isn't it....that the same popes you listed saying that they banned pepole from reading the Bibles turned out that they said the opposite thing.  This is what happens when you browse through only anti-Catholic websites.  Didn't it ever occur to you  to get the information from a Catholic website instead?  After all, the Catholics should have the Pope's encyclicals:

Pope St. Pius X-- "Nothing would please us more than to see our beloved children form the habit of reading the Gospels - not merely from time to time, but every day.

Quote from: Amo on Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 05:34:44
Selene, it is Amo, not Amos.  Though I feel sure you already know this.  I can clearly see that you refer to yourself as Selene, not Selime.  Just as I am sure that you can see that I refer to myself as Amo not Amos.

There is nothing I can do about the fact that you are unaware of, and or obviously unwilling to accept the validity of any of the volumes of historical information written about the Church of Rome, outside of the Church of Rome itself.  The Church of Rome has a long history of supplying misinformation and lies, and outright destroying people and writings that they don't want anyone to here about.  Yet you want everyone to trust and accept their historical writings exclusively above all others.  This is unacceptable to many. 

My apologies, Amo.  For some reason, I don't know why I put an "s" at the end of your name.  Perhaps, it is because of the Prophet Amos.     At any rate, I can see that you still haven't read any of my sources and perfer to browse through anti-Catholic Websites.    Oh well.....

I am quite new in this forum board.  And the only reason why I chose to post on this board is because it is a Catholic Forum and being a Catholic I can share what the Catholic faith is about.  So, for those who are non-Catholics, I can understand coming into this forum board and asking questions about our faith and why we do this and do that.  What puzzles me are those who come in here spewing out anti-Catholic propaganda and don't bother to listen to our side, which is supported by evidence.  What did they hope to gain by this?  The Catholic Church have always told its members to read the Bible.  However, it discourages it members from interpreting the Bible.  I have been saying this over and over and over, but certain posters continue to post hateful anti-Catholic propaganda and don't even bother to read my sources and posts with an open mind and heart.  Do you know what Jesus said about persecution.  Blessed are you when people abuse you and persecute you and speak all kinds of calumny against you on my acccount.  Rejoice and be glad for your reward will be great in Heaven (Matthew 5:11-12)  So, why continue to hate the Catholic Church.  The Catholic Church is not a building.  It is an assembly of people.  Didn''t the Bible teach you to love your neighbors and even your enemies?  So why hate? 

I say again.....We are not allowed to interpret Scripture.  Why? Because we will end up like the Protestants, which consist of more than 50,000 different denominations.  It was the Catholic Church that put together the Bible under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and only the Catholic Church has the authority to interpret Sacred Scripture under the guidance of that same Holy Spirit. 

Part of being a Catholic is to listen and follow our church leaders, and this is in the Bible (See 1 Peter 5:5 ).  The Bible DOES tell us to listen to the church leaders; therefore, the Catholics are following Sacred Scripture.  For someone to tell us not to follow the Church is already going against what is taught in the Bible.  Both Catholics and Protestants believe that the Bible is the "Word of God."  However, for Catholics, the "Word of God" is not just the Bible.  The "Word of God" has a name.  His name is Jesus Christ, and He is the Head of the Church.  Just as the people followed the Apostles, who wer the church leaders at that time, so do we also follow our church leaders, which consist of the Pope, bishops and clergy of the Church.  If you follow only the Bible and not your church, then ask yourself why?  Do you not believe that the Head of YOUR church is Jesus Christ?  Catholics are supposed to listen to their Church leaders because we are told to in the Bible.  There is a reason why Jesus established a church and placed Himself as Head of that Church.  I follow and listen to the Church because I believe that Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church just as it says in the Bible.  And I trust Jesus Christ. because He is the Word of God made flesh and who dwelt among men 2000 years ago.  The Word of God has a name, and His name is Jesus Christ.  Jesus, who is ALSO the "Word of God, is the Second person in the Holy Trinity. He is God.   And for anyone to say not to follow the Church is already preaching against the Bible

1 Peter 5:5  To the rest of you I say:  do what the elders tell you, and all wrap yourselves in humility to be servants of each other.

QuoteAt any rate, I can see that you still haven't read any of my sources and perfer to browse through anti-Catholic Websites.    Oh well.....

Actually, I do have a few books of my own from which I study, and collect information regarding the history of Christianity, the Roman Catholic Church, and the Protestant Reformation.  Most of them are on my computer. Yet I do still use the internet also for the same.  Here are a few of the books that I have which may be pertinent to our discussions.

INSTITUTES OF THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION VOLUMES 1-4 by John Calvin

REMARKS UPON THE ECCLESIASTICAL HISTORY OF THE ALBIGENSES
by Peter Allix D.D

THE GLORIOUS RECOVERY BY THE VAUDOIS OF THEIR VALLEY
by Henri Arnaud

A GENERAL HISTORY OF THE BAPTIST DENOMINATION VOLUMES 1&2
by David Benedict

HISTORY OF THE REFORMATION IN THE TIME OF CALVIN VOLUMES 1-8
by J.H. Merle d'Aubigne

HISTORY OF THE REFORMATION OF THE SIXTEENTH CENTURY
by J. H. Merle D'Aubigne

THE PROTECTOR by J.H. Merle D'Aubigne D.D

THE CHURCH HISTORY OF ETHOPIA by Michael Geddes

THE HISTORY OF THE ANCIENT VALLENSES AND ALBIGENSES
by George Stanley Faber

HEROES OF THE REFORMATION by Gideon & Hilda Hagstotz

HISTORY OF THE COUNCILS OF THE CHURCH VOLUMES 1-5
by Charles Hefele

ECCLESIA RESTAURATA OR THE HISTORY OF THE REFORMATION
OF THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND VOLUMES 1&2 by Peter Heylyn

THE HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH VOLUMES 1&2
by William Jones

HISTORY OF THE REFORMATION OF RELIGION, WITHIN THE REALM OF
SCOTLAND by John Knox

THE LIFE OF JOHN KNOX by Thomas M'Crie

THE REFORMATION IN SPAIN by Thomas M'Crie

MILLER'S CHURCH HISTORY by Andrew Miller

HISTORY OF THE ANCIENT CHRISTIANS by Jean Paul Perrin
HUS THE HERETIC by Poggius the Papist

HUGUENOTS IN ENGLAND AND IRELAND by Samuel Smiles

ANNALS OF THE REFORMATION VOLUMES 1-7 by John Strype

A CLOUD OF WITNESSES by Rev. John H. Thomson

TRUTH TRIUMPHANT by Benjamin George Wilkinson

THE HISTORY OF PROTESTANTISM VOLUMES 1-3 by Rev. J. A. Wylie

HISTORY OF THE SCOTTISH NATION by J.A. Wylie

ACTS AND MONUMENTS VOLUMES 1-8 by John Foxe

95 THESES by Martin Luther

THE LIFE AND TIMES OF MARTIN LUTHER by W. Carlos Martyn

COMMENTARY ON ST. PAUL'S EPISTLE TO THE GALATIANS
by Martin Luther

COMMENTARY ON THE SERMON ON THE MOUNT by Martin Luther

THE LETTERS OF MARTIN LUTHER by Martin Luther

WATCHWORDS FOR THE WARFARE OF LIFE by Martin Luther

PROPHECYES OF MARTIN LUTHER by Dr. Martin Luther

SERMONS OF MARTIN LUTHER VOLUMES 1-8 by Martin Luther

WORKS OF MARTIN LUTHER VOLUMES 1-6 by Martin Luther

THE WRITINGS OF JOHN BRADFORD, M.A. by John Bunyan

WRITINGS AND TRANSLATIONS OF MYLES COVERDALE
by Myles Coverdale

WRITINGS OF JOHN FOX, BALE AND COVERDALE by Fox, Bale & Coverdale

LESSONS FROM THE REFORMATION by Alonzo Jones

ECCLESIASTICAL EMPIRE by Alonzo Jones

THE TWO EMPIRES OR ROME AND THE U.S.A by Alonzo Jones

SELECT PRACTICAL WRITINGS OF JOHN KNOX by John Knox

SERMONS AND REMAINS by Hugh Latimer

DOCTRINAL TREATISES by William Tyndale

CHRIST AND ANTICHRIST by Samuel J. Cassels

FACTS OF FAITH by Christian Edwardson

ROMANISM AND THE REFORMATION by H. Grattan Guiness

THE PROHETIC FAITH OF OUR FATHERS VOLUMES 1-4  LE ROY EDWIN FROOM

THE HISTORY OF THE DECLINE AND FALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE BY EDWARD GIBBONS

QuoteI am quite new in this forum board.  And the only reason why I chose to post on this board is because it is a Catholic Forum and being a Catholic I can share what the Catholic faith is about.  So, for those who are non-Catholics, I can understand coming into this forum board and asking questions about our faith and why we do this and do that.  What puzzles me are those who come in here spewing out anti-Catholic propaganda and don't bother to listen to our side, which is supported by evidence.  What did they hope to gain by this?  The Catholic Church have always told its members to read the Bible.  However, it discourages it members from interpreting  the Bible.  I have been saying this over and over and over, but certain posters continue to post hateful anti-Catholic propaganda and don't even bother to read my sources and posts with an open mind and heart.  Do you know what Jesus said about persecution.  Blessed are you when people abuse you and persecute you and speak all kinds of calumny against you on my acccount.  Rejoice and be glad for your reward will be great in Heaven (Matthew 5:11-12)  So, why continue to hate the Catholic Church.  The Catholic Church is not a building.  It is an assembly of people.  Didn''t the Bible teach you to love your neighbors and even your enemies?  So why hate?

I say again.....We are not allowed to interpret Scripture.  Why? Because we will end up like the Protestants, which consist of more than 50,000 different denominations.  It was the Catholic Church that put together the Bible under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and only the Catholic Church has the authority to interpret Sacred Scripture under the guidance of that same Holy Spirit.

Part of being a Catholic is to listen and follow our church leaders, and this is in the Bible (See 1 Peter 5:5 ).  The Bible DOES tell us to listen to the church leaders; therefore, the Catholics are following Sacred Scripture.  For someone to tell us not to follow the Church is already going against what is taught in the Bible.  Both Catholics and Protestants believe that the Bible is the "Word of God."  However, for Catholics, the "Word of God" is not just the Bible.  The "Word of God" has a name.  His name is Jesus Christ, and He is the Head of the Church.  Just as the people followed the Apostles, who wer the church leaders at that time, so do we also follow our church leaders, which consist of the Pope, bishops and clergy of the Church.  If you follow only the Bible and not your church, then ask yourself why?  Do you not believe that the Head of YOUR church is Jesus Christ?  Catholics are supposed to listen to their Church leaders because we are told to in the Bible.  There is a reason why Jesus established a church and placed Himself as Head of that Church.  I follow and listen to the Church because I believe that Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church just as it says in the Bible.  And I trust Jesus Christ. because He is the Word of God made flesh and who dwelt among men 2000 years ago.  The Word of God has a name, and His name is Jesus Christ.  Jesus, who is ALSO the "Word of God, is the Second person in the Holy Trinity. He is God.   And for anyone to say not to follow the Church is already preaching against the Bible

1 Peter 5:5  To the rest of you I say:  do what the elders tell you, and all wrap yourselves in humility to be servants of each other.

Whatever.  Enough beating a dead dog with a stick.  By for now.

You guys are really humorous. I mean you really make me laugh

First Amo states that Selene is obviously wrong for depending on Catholic sources. But what then does he list as "reliable" reading??  A whole list of Protestant ones.  hahaha

Martin Luther: The man who once proclaimed that all Jews were PIGS. That they worshipped Satan in their temples.

Not what most "Christians" would claim as reliable christian reading Amo!!


And what do I get back from Macca? But a request to bring forth more historical documents to prove my case, when he himself has failed to bring forth absolutely any historical docs in all the threads he posts.

What's wrong Macca?  Can't you find anything to back up your beliefs? I'm not surprised because there is very little out there to support your claim that your 450 yr old self interpretated Christianity is in fact older.

Oh and just a small bit about the Catholic Church Macca, if you go away and study the "Catholic" Church documents from the first and second Vatican councils, you will not find ref to the Roman Catholic Church. It refers to the Catholic Church.
It was actually the Anglicans who started calling us that because they believed the Catholic Church had three wings. Greek, Roman and Anglican.

Protestants like yourself have been trying to usurp the word "Catholic" for some time now simply because they think it will justify their own brand new version of religion.
They found that after 450 yrs, the names Calvinist, Lutheran, Baptist, Anglican, Methodist, Presbyterian etc etc etc actually pointed to the very fact that they were splintered, divided and arguing with each other.

That's why they are now trying to "re name" themselves as Non denominational bible only. Same mixed up teachings, just re labled.

I guess that's why our "Catholic" name upsets you so much. We don't have to change our name like you do.

And as for your comments about Ignatius and the Eucharist, that's just funny.
Tell me, does your church teach this?? Or does it teach the 450 yr old false doctrine that it's only done in rememberance?

For if you don't follow what Ignatius says here, then clearly, you are nothing like the first Christians.

But go one mate, surprise me. Actually do what you ask us to do. Bring forth some facts

Pax Tecum

PS: I'm Australian, we always shorten names starting with Mc to Macca, it's not an attack on your name

Quote from: Fallen Knight on Mon Nov 23, 2009 - 21:57:38
You guys are really humorous. I mean you really make me laugh

First Amo states that Selene is obviously wrong for depending on Catholic sources. But what then does he list as "reliable" reading??  A whole list of Protestant ones.  hahaha

Martin Luther: The man who once proclaimed that all Jews were PIGS. That they worshipped Satan in their temples.

Not what most "Christians" would claim as reliable christian reading Amo!!


And what do I get back from Macca? But a request to bring forth more historical documents to prove my case, when he himself has failed to bring forth absolutely any historical docs in all the threads he posts.

What's wrong Macca?  Can't you find anything to back up your beliefs? I'm not surprised because there is very little out there to support your claim that your 450 yr old self interpretated Christianity is in fact older.

Oh and just a small bit about the Catholic Church Macca, if you go away and study the "Catholic" Church documents from the first and second Vatican councils, you will not find ref to the Roman Catholic Church. It refers to the Catholic Church.
It was actually the Anglicans who started calling us that because they believed the Catholic Church had three wings. Greek, Roman and Anglican.

Protestants like yourself have been trying to usurp the word "Catholic" for some time now simply because they think it will justify their own brand new version of religion.
They found that after 450 yrs, the names Calvinist, Lutheran, Baptist, Anglican, Methodist, Presbyterian etc etc etc actually pointed to the very fact that they were splintered, divided and arguing with each other.

That's why they are now trying to "re name" themselves as Non denominational bible only. Same mixed up teachings, just re labled.

I guess that's why our "Catholic" name upsets you so much. We don't have to change our name like you do.

And as for your comments about Ignatius and the Eucharist, that's just funny.
Tell me, does your church teach this?? Or does it teach the 450 yr old false doctrine that it's only done in rememberance?

For if you don't follow what Ignatius says here, then clearly, you are nothing like the first Christians.

But go one mate, surprise me. Actually do what you ask us to do. Bring forth some facts

Pax Tecum

PS: I'm Australian, we always shorten names starting with Mc to Macca, it's not an attack on your name

Well if this isn't a laugh. I post things and almost every debating catholic on this board minimizes everything  saying that i need to produce evidence and facts. But if i ask you then you turn the table.  ::doh::The reason you are doing this is because you can't produce evidence that refutes what I stated. This is a game you are playing

Eucharist is still no evidence the the church was always Roman Catholic. If you want to believe in transubstantiation then that is fine, I will not condemn you. Jesus is looking at the things that done out of a pure heart. Sorry but I can't produce facts for that. yet you and i know that is true.     

My friends call me Mike We can still be friends even if we debate and don't agree on things. Okay

Dear Mike,
                 No offence, but you post lies and false propaganda about my faith and then ask to be my friend?  Sorry, the answer is no.

No one but you is saying anything about the church being Roman Catholic since it's foundation by Our Lord.  We are saying the Church has always been Catholic!
The Roman Catholic Church is actually the Christian community of Rome. As I am an Australian, I am a Australian Catholic. You would be more correct to call me a Sydney Catholic.

I note you have tried to twist the argument around regarding proofs. Once again I point out that on numerous occaisions now I have asked you to provide some, and only once did you come back with a "wikopedia" quotation.     

But whilst saying we don't provide anything, you then make a comment about Ignatius? I thought we hadn't provided any??

Further I note you try and brush aside Ignatius' comments.

Once again I ask you if your church teaches that "the bread that we eat is the flesh of our Lord JESUS"?

If it doesn't then you are clearly not in agreement with a first century Christian. One who was ordained by the very Apostles themselves and who was taught by the Apostles.

My Catholic Church still teaches this truth Macca. A truth that can be traced back to the first Christians.

Does yours?

Dear Mike,
                 No offence, but you post lies and false propaganda about my faith and then ask to be my friend?  Sorry, the answer is no.

No one but you is saying anything about the church being Roman Catholic since it's foundation by Our Lord.  We are saying the Church has always been Catholic!
The Roman Catholic Church is actually the Christian community of Rome. As I am an Australian, I am a Australian Catholic. You would be more correct to call me a Sydney Catholic.

Mike>Oh!,  so what was the posting the statement from Ignatius for? What were you trying to say to me.  You say the church has always been Catholic. By the true meaning of the word this is true. I think I have already stated as much. That makes all of us one universal faith in Christ.  Right ? However when Catholics like you and others say the word Catholic you are not seeing all believers but only the RCC.  Even the world at large when they hear Catholic they only identify it with the RCC  I've been around to long not to know that. That is the deception here. One does not have to be of the RCC to be saved. Or to be of Christs Which many RC's still want to believe.. That a fallacy.  You and others would say there is only one true church that Jesus founded,  which is true, but when you and others say it you are only seeing the RCC.  .You may deny that but its true just the same.
Yes you would be a  Sydney catholic that looks to the church of Rome and I am a Naples Catholic that looks only to Christ. And not he church of Rome.. .   
 

I note you have tried to twist the argument around regarding proofs. Once again I point out that on numerous occaisions now I have asked you to provide some, and only once did you come back with a "wikopedia" quotation.    Applause

Mike>Well you call anything a lie if you want to. But that doses not make it a lie. Which wiopedea post were you referring to. You can say that about anything. So you only have a mindless and endless carnal argument. You can even say the Bible is lie but you still refer to it.    . 

But whilst saying we don't provide anything, you then make a comment about Ignatius? I thought we hadn't provided any??

Mike> Have have no idea what you are talking about

Further I note you try and brush aside Ignatius' comments.

Mike>  Not at all. lWhat was it you wanted me to see or prove by posting it?

Once again I ask you if your church teaches that "the bread that we eat is the flesh of our Lord JESUS"?

Mke> What do you mean my church. There is only one church.  The church is divided on transubstantiation. Do you think those who do not believe as you are damned.?
 
If it doesn't then you are clearly not in agreement with a first century Christian. One who was ordained by the very Apostles themselves and who was taught by the Apostles.

My Catholic Church still teaches this truth Macca. A truth that can be traced back to the first Christians.

Does yours?

Mike> Again there is only one church. It is neither Roman catholic or Protestant. I have already told you the church is divided on this. But you may believe what you wish. Why are you wanting to stuff it on me? I am not here to argue doctrines.     

I know the things I have said you take offense. I want to ask you what lies have said here? I have stated only things that are true. If I thought they were lies or anything deliberately false I would not have said or posted them. It is not my fault that you don't want to believe or give any real consideration, or that you want to be offended. 

I do not call myself a prophet by any means but When God told his Prophets to show the faults of Israel they did not except them either. God knew they wouldn't yet he commanded them to speak anyway.  He said their hearts were hard and they were stiff necked. They spurned Gods messengers and even killed them.. Like you they probably said they were telling lies.     

I say the things that I do because I know I am seeing things you do not want to accept..You want facts and proofs for things that most often have none . Things that are easily dismissed and scoffed at. Jesus offended the Pharisees. He didn't have documented proofs either. They hated and scourged him for it. You wouldn't say Jesus was a liar

You posted the letter of Ignatious as if the his use of the word Eucharist was something. What ?

I'm sorry we can't be friends. I guess the line has been struck.

I still see all of us a brother s in Christ  Belivers in Christ are believers  and the Church is the church.

God bless   

Just a point of correction here.  The Roman Catholic Church is just one of the names that we have used in the west as a sort of shorthand.  There is no one actual "official" name for the Catholic Church. RCC, 'Catholic Church', the Holy Catholic Church, the American, Australian, Argentinean, etc.- 'Catholic Church' is also acceptable.  Catholics refer to it as the Church of Christ, the Mystical Body of Christ, Holy Mother Church.  We use the term 'Roman Catholic' in the west to mean the whole Church, but in fact, it is not so.  The term 'Roman Catholic' Church actually only applies to the Latin Rite Church in the west.  It is the largest and most familiar to Americans, Europeans, Australians, etc., for example, but there are 23 other eastern Rites of the Church that are just as Catholic, but it is a misnomer to refer to them as "Roman'.  It's like the title of 'Christian'.  In countries where there are great numbers of Protestants it is common to say, "I'm a Catholic" when someone ask you what your religion is, but in predominately Catholic countries or where there are few Protestants most Catholics will simply say they are 'Christian' when answering.

Quote from: desertknight on Fri Nov 27, 2009 - 09:07:39
Just a point of correction here.  The Roman Catholic Church is just one of the names that we have used in the west as a sort of shorthand.  There is no one actual "official" name for the Catholic Church. RCC, 'Catholic Church', the Holy Catholic Church, the American, Australian, Argentinean, etc.- 'Catholic Church' is also acceptable.  Catholics refer to it as the Church of Christ, the Mystical Body of Christ, Holy Mother Church.  We use the term 'Roman Catholic' in the west to mean the whole Church, but in fact, it is not so.  The term 'Roman Catholic' Church actually only applies to the Latin Rite Church in the west.  It is the largest and most familiar to Americans, Europeans, Australians, etc., for example, but there are 23 other eastern Rites of the Church that are just as Catholic, but it is a misnomer to refer to them as "Roman'.  It's like the title of 'Christian'.  In countries where there are great numbers of Protestants it is common to say, "I'm a Catholic" when someone ask you what your religion is, but in predominately Catholic countries or where there are few Protestants most Catholics will simply say they are 'Christian' when answering.

Lets look at this another way. I am a follower of Christ. I do not say I am a Christian because the word christian is a very lose term these days.  As one Pastor put it."of course I'm a Christian! I'm American!" Modern day Christianity is a real mixed bag of beliefs, and watered down Gospel. don't get me wrong I wouldn't wash the baby out with the bathwater. Most are very sincere and wonderful Christ loving people.  I often see things that disturb me but again I have also seen much good done in the world. catholic and protestant wise. But when it really comes down to it we will all be judged not denominationally but our personal walk. being catholic or protestant won't carry any weight at all.

You talk of all the different rites, but don't they all look to the same pope?  The world doesn't care much about different rites.  I liked what you said about the being just a man.
But he is a man of real power and influence. we must be careful. You may see no wrong or harm by being politically minded and motivated but I could not disagree more. The time will come when it is proven out.

I follow Jesus just as you. but i don't think you would call me catholic because you can only identify catholic as one who honors the pope. Am I right? the world thinks this also, but it is deception that really divides the church, just the same way all the names of different denominations divides the church. There is only one church founded and that is the church of all believers. All that is evil and corrupt under this umbrella called Christianity will be sorted out When Jesus comes. Amen?

God bless 

Quote from: mclees8 on Fri Nov 27, 2009 - 09:59:31
I follow Jesus just as you. but i don't think you would call me catholic because you can only identify catholic as one who honors the pope. Am I right? the world thinks this also, but it is deception that really divides the church, just the same way all the names of different denominations divides the church. There is only one church founded and that is the church of all believers. All that is evil and corrupt under this umbrella called Christianity will be sorted out When Jesus comes. Amen?

God bless 

This is no deception.  Catholics who are in communion with the Pope were the "catholics" from apostolic times.  The Catholic Church can trace its lineage all the way back to the Apostle Peter.  I agree that there is only one church founded by Christ, and that church is easily identifiable because it is the only church that became a nation.  Just as God made a group of slaves from Egypt into a country, so He also made His chosen church into a country.  And the Catholic Church (with the capital letter "C") is the only one that fulfilled all the prophecies in the Bible.  You may not like the Pope, but the Pope is the successor of the Apostle Peter. 

Quote from: mclees8 on Fri Nov 27, 2009 - 09:59:31
Lets look at this another way. I am a follower of Christ. I do not say I am a Christian because the word christian is a very lose term these days.  As one Pastor put it."of course I'm a Christian! I'm American!" Modern day Christianity is a real mixed bag of beliefs, and watered down Gospel. don't get me wrong I wouldn't wash the baby out with the bathwater. Most are very sincere and wonderful Christ loving people.  I often see things that disturb me but again I have also seen much good done in the world. catholic and protestant wise. But when it really comes down to it we will all be judged not denominationally but our personal walk. being catholic or protestant won't carry any weight at all.

You talk of all the different rites, but don't they all look to the same pope?  The world doesn't care much about different rites.  I liked what you said about the being just a man.
But he is a man of real power and influence. we must be careful. You may see no wrong or harm by being politically minded and motivated but I could not disagree more. The time will come when it is proven out.

I follow Jesus just as you. but i don't think you would call me catholic because you can only identify catholic as one who honors the pope. Am I right? the world thinks this also, but it is deception that really divides the church, just the same way all the names of different denominations divides the church. There is only one church founded and that is the church of all believers. All that is evil and corrupt under this umbrella called Christianity will be sorted out When Jesus comes. Amen?

God bless

Your views come from a false doctrine of the faith, brother.  You steadfastly believe that Christ established no visible Church on earth with no visible authorities who govern it in His name.  You further think that what visible churches there are, Christ would be OK with the divisions of.  Protestants have over 35,000+ denominations, all teaching and preaching different and often completely contradictory versions of the the basic doctrines of Christianity and of the Bible.

I can read the writings of the earliest Church Fathers and know that my Catholic faith is the same now, as it was then-unchanged-for 2,000 years.  The New Testament is crystal clear in it's description of Christ organising a visible Church on earth through his anointing of ordinary men as Apostles, of their passing that authority on to the Bishops which has continued unto today.  Christ cares whether we are Catholic of Protestant because he cares whether we know that the Holy Eucharist is as Paul said, "discern it to be the Body".  Christ cares that we understand that in obeying and in following the Bishops we are obeying and following Him because He told us exactly that, "As the Father has sent me, so I send you."  That Protestants do everything from preach tithing will make you a millionaire to dancing with snakes is the true sign of Satan's work among our Christian brothers who live outside the true Church.  Not all Protestants are that extreme, but after you get past the Anglican/Lutherans/Presbyterians, well, it gets pretty weird.

Let me ask you something, when you read this...    

Heb. 13:17  "Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep watch over you and will have to give an account, that they may fulfill their task with joy and not with sorrow, for that would be of no advantage to you."

1 Thes. 5:12-13  "Now we ask you, brothers, to respect those who work hard among you, who are over you in the Lord and who admonish you. Hold them in the highest regard in love because of their work. Live in peace with each other."

Tit. 1:7-9  "For a Bishop as God's steward must be blameless, not arrogant, not irritable, not a drunkard, not aggressive, not greedy for sordid gain, but hospitable, a lover of goodness, temperate, just, holy, and self-controlled, holding fast to the true message as taught so that he will be able both to exhort with sound doctrine and to refute opponents."

...I ask, do you have a Bishop?  Do you hold him in the highest regard?  Do you obey and defer to him?  If you can't answer "yes" to any of these questions, then if I were you, I would start to question whether my version of the Christian faith was truly Biblical.

Peace  

Quote from: desertknight on Fri Nov 27, 2009 - 21:04:25

Quote from: mclees8 on Fri Nov 27, 2009 - 09:59:31
Lets look at this another way. I am a follower of Christ. I do not say I am a Christian because the word christian is a very lose term these days.  As one Pastor put it."of course I'm a Christian! I'm American!" Modern day Christianity is a real mixed bag of beliefs, and watered down Gospel. don't get me wrong I wouldn't wash the baby out with the bathwater. Most are very sincere and wonderful Christ loving people.  I often see things that disturb me but again I have also seen much good done in the world. catholic and protestant wise. But when it really comes down to it we will all be judged not denominationally but our personal walk. being catholic or protestant won't carry any weight at all.

You talk of all the different rites, but don't they all look to the same pope?  The world doesn't care much about different rites.  I liked what you said about the being just a man.
But he is a man of real power and influence. we must be careful. You may see no wrong or harm by being politically minded and motivated but I could not disagree more. The time will come when it is proven out.

I follow Jesus just as you. but i don't think you would call me catholic because you can only identify catholic as one who honors the pope. Am I right? the world thinks this also, but it is deception that really divides the church, just the same way all the names of different denominations divides the church. There is only one church founded and that is the church of all believers. All that is evil and corrupt under this umbrella called Christianity will be sorted out When Jesus comes. Amen?

God bless

Your views come from a false doctrine of the faith, brother.  You steadfastly believe that Christ established no visible Church on earth with no visible authorities who govern it in His name.  You further think that what visible churches there are, Christ would be OK with the divisions of.  Protestants have over 35,000+ denominations, all teaching and preaching different and often completely contradictory versions of the the basic doctrines of Christianity and of the Bible.

I can read the writings of the earliest Church Fathers and know that my Catholic faith is the same now, as it was then-unchanged-for 2,000 years.  The New Testament is crystal clear in it's description of Christ organising a visible Church on earth through his anointing of ordinary men as Apostles, of their passing that authority on to the Bishops which has continued unto today.  Christ cares whether we are Catholic of Protestant because he cares whether we know that the Holy Eucharist is as Paul said, "discern it to be the Body".  Christ cares that we understand that in obeying and in following the Bishops we are obeying and following Him because He told us exactly that, "As the Father has sent me, so I send you."  That Protestants do everything from preach tithing will make you a millionaire to dancing with snakes is the true sign of Satan's work among our Christian brothers who live outside the true Church.  Not all Protestants are that extreme, but after you get past the Anglican/Lutherans/Presbyterians, well, it gets pretty weird.

Let me ask you something, when you read this...    

Heb. 13:17  "Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep watch over you and will have to give an account, that they may fulfill their task with joy and not with sorrow, for that would be of no advantage to you."

1 Thes. 5:12-13  "Now we ask you, brothers, to respect those who work hard among you, who are over you in the Lord and who admonish you. Hold them in the highest regard in love because of their work. Live in peace with each other."

Tit. 1:7-9  "For a Bishop as God's steward must be blameless, not arrogant, not irritable, not a drunkard, not aggressive, not greedy for sordid gain, but hospitable, a lover of goodness, temperate, just, holy, and self-controlled, holding fast to the true message as taught so that he will be able both to exhort with sound doctrine and to refute opponents."

...I ask, do you have a Bishop?  Do you hold him in the highest regard?  Do you obey and defer to him?  If you can't answer "yes" to any of these questions, then if I were you, I would start to question whether my version of the Christian faith was truly Biblical.


Peace  

Why do you put yourself under the law? And then bind me with you.  Of course we are to respect those who are leaders. Jesus also said Matt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

He also taught we should be as lambs, but wise as serpents. Respect yes but we don't have to blind fools. Ultimately we follow bishops as they follow Christ. tell me did the thief on the cross have a bishop?  You put Christ in a box of laws. Just like when the certain Jewish  converts tried to put circumsision on the gentiles. Apollos preached mightily the scripture and had not yet  even met Paul nor was he yet Baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Why don't you let Christ be my judge? What are the two greatest commandments In them are all the law and the prophets. When Jesus said the first shall be last and last shall be first who is the last that shall be first.

God bless

Quote from: mclees8 on Fri Nov 27, 2009 - 22:21:08
Why do you put yourself under the law? And then bind me with you.  

What do you mean by this?  Do you actually believe that believing that the New Testament declaring that doctrine should be sound and that we are to obey our Bishops and Presbyters is "putting ourselves under the law"?  When you say things like this I actually have no idea what you are talking about.  It just sounds like sweeping statements that have no real meaning.  My clue is that you never actaully answer the questions that I pose, so I will keep at that.

Quote from: McLOf course we are to respect those who are leaders. Jesus also said Matt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

1.  So what religious leaders do you follow and obey?   2.  And we shall know those false prophets because they will preach something that is not constant with what the Church has always taught.  As I said, when I read this....

"See that you all follow the Bishop, as Christ does the Father, and the presbyterium as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as a command of God. Let no one do anything connected with the Church without the Bishop. Let that be considered a certain [βεβαια, "valid"] eucharist which is under the leadership of the Bishop, or one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the Bishop appears, there let the multitude of the people be; just as where Christ Jesus is, there is the Catholic Church."  St. Ignatius of Antioch, ordained by the Apostle John."

"For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Saviour was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" (First Apology 66:1-20)."  

...from the first century Fathers of the Church who learned and were ordained by the Original Apostles, I know that my Church today is in complete agreement and accord with these writings.  No false prophets have led us astray.  Do these quotes resemble the church you worship in?  

Quote from: McLHe also taught we should be as lambs, but wise as serpents. Respect yes but we don't have to blind fools. Ultimately we follow bishops as they follow Christ.

So which Bishop do you follow?

Quote from: McLtell me did the thief on the cross have a bishop?

No, he didn't need one.  He had Christ, the High Priest Himself, but you seem to be slipping back into your erroneous belief that Christ never wanted any earthly authorities to act in His name as Bishops of His Church.  Holy Scripture, as I pointed out, says something different.  

Quote from: McLYou put Christ in a box of laws. Just like when the certain Jewish  converts tried to put circumsision on the gentiles. Apollos preached mightily the scripture and had not yet  even met Paul nor was he yet Baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Again, non nonsensical sweeping statements.  What "box of laws" are you talking about?  Again, back to, "We don't need any ordained people as authorities" logic.  The problem is, that Holy Scripture says something very, very, different.  I'm perfectly happy to cite chapter and verse for you.  Apollos BTW, preached and worked as a missionary, one can do that without ordination as a lay Catholic.  It is quite common.  Most travelling preachers in the Catholic Church are more likely than not, lay people or lay couples who only need to make sure they are preaching orthodoxy by the local Bishop.

Quote from: McLWhy don't you let Christ be my judge? What are the two greatest commandments In them are all the law and the prophets. When Jesus said the first shall be last and last shall be first who is the last that shall be first.

God bless

I'm not trying to pick on you, but what in all that's golden do you mean here???  I am not letting Christ be your judge?    Sweeping statements that are shotgun blasts that have no bearing on the topic don't help your case.

Quote from: desertknight on Fri Nov 27, 2009 - 23:24:46

Quote from: mclees8 on Fri Nov 27, 2009 - 22:21:08
Why do you put yourself under the law? And then bind me with you.  

What do you mean by this?  Do you actually believe that believing that the New Testament declaring that doctrine should be sound and that we are to obey our Bishops and Presbyters is "putting ourselves under the law"?  When you say things like this I actually have no idea what you are talking about.  It just sounds like sweeping statements that have no real meaning.  My clue is that you never actaully answer the questions that I pose, so I will keep at that.

Quote from: McLOf course we are to respect those who are leaders. Jesus also said Matt 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

1.  So what religious leaders do you follow and obey?   2.  And we shall know those false prophets because they will preach something that is not constant with what the Church has always taught.  As I said, when I read this....

"See that you all follow the Bishop, as Christ does the Father, and the presbyterium as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as a command of God. Let no one do anything connected with the Church without the Bishop. Let that be considered a certain [βεβαια, "valid"] eucharist which is under the leadership of the Bishop, or one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the Bishop appears, there let the multitude of the people be; just as where Christ Jesus is, there is the Catholic Church."  St. Ignatius of Antioch, ordained by the Apostle John."

"For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Saviour was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" (First Apology 66:1-20)."  

...from the first century Fathers of the Church who learned and were ordained by the Original Apostles, I know that my Church today is in complete agreement and accord with these writings.  No false prophets have led us astray.  Do these quotes resemble the church you worship in?  

Quote from: McLHe also taught we should be as lambs, but wise as serpents. Respect yes but we don't have to blind fools. Ultimately we follow bishops as they follow Christ.

So which Bishop do you follow?

Quote from: McLtell me did the thief on the cross have a bishop?

No, he didn't need one.  He had Christ, the High Priest Himself, but you seem to be slipping back into your erroneous belief that Christ never wanted any earthly authorities to act in His name as Bishops of His Church.  Holy Scripture, as I pointed out, says something different.  

Quote from: McLYou put Christ in a box of laws. Just like when the certain Jewish  converts tried to put circumsision on the gentiles. Apollos preached mightily the scripture and had not yet  even met Paul nor was he yet Baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Again, non nonsensical sweeping statements.  What "box of laws" are you talking about?  Again, back to, "We don't need any ordained people as authorities" logic.  The problem is, that Holy Scripture says something very, very, different.  I'm perfectly happy to cite chapter and verse for you.  Apollos BTW, preached and worked as a missionary, one can do that without ordination as a lay Catholic.  It is quite common.  Most travelling preachers in the Catholic Church are more likely than not, lay people or lay couples who only need to make sure they are preaching orthodoxy by the local Bishop.

Quote from: McLWhy don't you let Christ be my judge? What are the two greatest commandments In them are all the law and the prophets. When Jesus said the first shall be last and last shall be first who is the last that shall be first.

God bless

I'm not trying to pick on you, but what in all that's golden do you mean here???  I am not letting Christ be your judge?    Sweeping statements that are shotgun blasts that have no bearing on the topic don't help your case.

You have a bishop. then Obey him. I understand the scriptures as well as any man. I have sat under leaders for thirty years and have been taught by them. I know longer have to study the book because as it was once put, the book is now in me. I have but one authority and that is Christ. His Holy Spirit is my bishop. You think me as some rouge who rebels against authority, but i have done nothing but lift up Christ more than men.

The only difference between you and me is that your middle man is an earthly bishop. Follow the bishop and do all he says if it is Godly  and glorifies Christ   

I do not deny that there is a visible and earthly authority. be sure you are following the right one. My sweeping statements have much bearing. You just can't see it.

God bless

6 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.  John 14:26

Night do you think the Holy Spirit only teaches the bishop.

What the Lord taught the apostles they taught to us. When you are young you need a teacher.  Perhaps you haven't come to maturity yet.
God bless

Quote from: mclees8 on Sat Nov 28, 2009 - 08:26:47
You have a bishop. then Obey him. I understand the scriptures as well as any man. I have sat under leaders for thirty years and have been taught by them. I know longer have to study the book because as it was once put, the book is now in me. I have but one authority and that is Christ. His Holy Spirit is my bishop. You think me as some rouge who rebels against authority, but i have done nothing but lift up Christ more than men.

The only difference between you and me is that your middle man is an earthly bishop. Follow the bishop and do all he says if it is Godly  and glorifies Christ   

I do not deny that there is a visible and earthly authority. be sure you are following the right one. My sweeping statements have much bearing. You just can't see it.

God bless

My brother, the fact that you have no bishop and no church already shows that you follow a false religion and preach false teachings.  There is a reason why Christ built a church.  A church is an assembly of people and Christ is the Head of that assembly.  Jesus never meant for a man to be alone and to be a chruch all by himself.  Christ built only one church, and the church He built did have an earthly bishop.  Christ built a church so that its members can be united with Him.  But how can you be united with Christ if you can't even be united with any brothers and sisters because you chose to be a one-man church all by yourself?

Quote6 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.  John 14:26

Night do you think the Holy Spirit only teaches the bishop.

What the Lord taught the apostles they taught to us. When you are young you need a teacher.  Perhaps you haven't come to maturity yet.
God bless

My brother, God has always chosen and called certain people.  I emphasize the word "chosen and called" because not everyone was called to be a prophet, an Apostle, a bishop, or a priest.  God is very selective.  Of all the nations on the earth, He chose Israel to be His chosen people.  Between Isaac and Ishmael, it was Isaac whom God chose.  Of course, God still loves those He didn't choose.  Scripture shows that God even provided for Ishmael, but Ismael was NOT the chosen one.  There is a reason why God chose certain people and why Scripture instructs us to listen to those people.  If you cannot listen to those whom God sent, then how can you listen to God?  Read the Scripture below: 

Luke 16:27-31 The rich man replied, "Father, I beg you then to send Lazarus to my father's house, since I have five brothers, to give them warning so that they do not come to this place of torment too."  "They have Moses and the prophets," said Abraham,"Let them listen to them."  "Ah no, father Abraham," said the rich man, "but if someone comes to them from the dead, they will repent."  Then Abraham said to him, "If they will not listen either to Moses or to the prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone should rise from the dead."

Here is a lesson for you to learn so that you can grow to maturity.  If you cannot listen to the Church that Christ built, you will not listen to Christ, who rose from the dead.  And this is why God installed an earthly bishop.

Peace,
Selene

Quote from: Selene on Sat Nov 28, 2009 - 16:13:14

Quote from: mclees8 on Sat Nov 28, 2009 - 08:26:47
You have a bishop. then Obey him. I understand the scriptures as well as any man. I have sat under leaders for thirty years and have been taught by them. I know longer have to study the book because as it was once put, the book is now in me. I have but one authority and that is Christ. His Holy Spirit is my bishop. You think me as some rouge who rebels against authority, but i have done nothing but lift up Christ more than men.

The only difference between you and me is that your middle man is an earthly bishop. Follow the bishop and do all he says if it is Godly  and glorifies Christ   

I do not deny that there is a visible and earthly authority. be sure you are following the right one. My sweeping statements have much bearing. You just can't see it.

God bless

My brother, the fact that you have no bishop and no church already shows that you follow a false religion and preach false teachings.  There is a reason why Christ built a church.  A church is an assembly of people and Christ is the Head of that assembly.  Jesus never meant for a man to be alone and to be a chruch all by himself.  Christ built only one church, and the church He built did have an earthly bishop.  Christ built a church so that its members can be united with Him.  But how can you be united with Christ if you can't even be united with any brothers and sisters because you chose to be a one-man church all by yourself?

Quote6 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.  John 14:26

Night do you think the Holy Spirit only teaches the bishop.

What the Lord taught the apostles they taught to us. When you are young you need a teacher.  Perhaps you haven't come to maturity yet.
God bless

My brother, God has always chosen and called certain people.  I emphasize the word "chosen and called" because not everyone was called to be a prophet, an Apostle, a bishop, or a priest.  God is very selective.  Of all the nations on the earth, He chose Israel to be His chosen people.  Between Isaac and Ishmael, it was Isaac whom God chose.  Of course, God still loves those He didn't choose.  Scripture shows that God even provided for Ishmael, but Ismael was NOT the chosen one.  There is a reason why God chose certain people and why Scripture instructs us to listen to those people.  If you cannot listen to those whom God sent, then how can you listen to God?  Read the Scripture below: 

Luke 16:27-31 The rich man replied, "Father, I beg you then to send Lazarus to my father's house, since I have five brothers, to give them warning so that they do not come to this place of torment too."  "They have Moses and the prophets," said Abraham,"Let them listen to them."  "Ah no, father Abraham," said the rich man, "but if someone comes to them from the dead, they will repent."  Then Abraham said to him, "If they will not listen either to Moses or to the prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone should rise from the dead."

Here is a lesson for you to learn so that you can grow to maturity.  If you cannot listen to the Church that Christ built, you will not listen to Christ, who rose from the dead.  And this is why God installed an earthly bishop.

Peace,
Selene

Dear Selene Yes God chooses but you do not know who he chooses, or for what specific purpose he chooses them. He said hear the prophets. Did they look like the church. Did they have credentials hanging on their wall.  Elija and John were called but they looked nothing like any religious authority. You are so institutionalized in your thinking. You only see carnal things. things that have all the outward appearances of the religion. You bound by laws rules and standards of men. He chose the apostles but they had no credentials or anything that identified them as earthly authority. Jesus chose them but you do not know who he chooses or why.

If I be for Christ and lift Him up then why do you constrain me. wy then bind me to your ideals.   

God bless

Quote from: mclees8 on Sat Nov 28, 2009 - 17:52:51
Dear Selene Yes God chooses but you do not know who he chooses, or for what specific purpose he chooses them. He said hear the prophets. Did they look like the church. Did they have credentials hanging on their wall.  Elija and John were called but they looked nothing like any religious authority. You are so institutionalized in your thinking. You only see carnal things. things that have all the outward appearances of the religion. You bound by laws rules and standards of men. He chose the apostles but they had no credentials or anything that identified them as earthly authority. Jesus chose them but you do not know who he chooses or why.

If I be for Christ and lift Him up then why do you constrain me. wy then bind me to your ideals.   

God bless

We already know that the Catholic Church is apostolic,  And the Catholic Church teaches us to place all our trust in God.  This is the same teaching as the prophets in the Old Testament.  The Apostles were called as well as Elijah and John, and they are exactly like the bishops and priests who were also called.  They were all sinners.  St. Peter was called and he denied Christ three times.  We don't constrain you.  You are free to believe what you want.  But we will not go against what is taught to us in the Bible and in our church.  The Bible does say to listen to our church leaders. 

Peace be with you,
Selene

Quote from: Selene on Sun Nov 29, 2009 - 21:59:39

Quote from: mclees8 on Sat Nov 28, 2009 - 17:52:51
Dear Selene Yes God chooses but you do not know who he chooses, or for what specific purpose he chooses them. He said hear the prophets. Did they look like the church. Did they have credentials hanging on their wall.  Elija and John were called but they looked nothing like any religious authority. You are so institutionalized in your thinking. You only see carnal things. things that have all the outward appearances of the religion. You bound by laws rules and standards of men. He chose the apostles but they had no credentials or anything that identified them as earthly authority. Jesus chose them but you do not know who he chooses or why.

If I be for Christ and lift Him up then why do you constrain me. wy then bind me to your ideals.   

God bless

We already know that the Catholic Church is apostolic,  And the Catholic Church teaches us to place all our trust in God.  This is the same teaching as the prophets in the Old Testament.  The Apostles were called as well as Elijah and John, and they are exactly like the bishops and priests who were also called.  They were all sinners.  St. Peter was called and he denied Christ three times.  We don't constrain you.  You are free to believe what you want.  But we will not go against what is taught to us in the Bible and in our church.  The Bible does say to listen to our church leaders. 

Peace be with you,
Selene

yes Selene respect them and do as they say as long as they teach Jesus Christ crucified and call for all believers, which is the  body of Christ, to live according to all he taught in scripture, Loving God and neighbor.  Ultimately  it is you Selene as all of us who will be judged of Christ who alone knows the depth or our soul and are very being. he will judge your affiliation.
2nd Cor 5;10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

But know this and i know you will scoff, The church of Rome ( the papacy) has set itself up to be the political moral guidepost for the world and its leaders , that will ultimately follow antichrist. The church will not bring peace and safety that the world wants. Until Christ second coming the world which is under the curse of sin and its evils and corruption, there will be no world peace. The man of sin will promise it but it won't last. All that is in the world and of it will be judged, just as it says in Rev 18   

God bless

Quote from: mclees8 on Mon Nov 30, 2009 - 08:28:16
But know this and i know you will scoff, The church of Rome ( the papacy) has set itself up to be the political moral guidepost for the world and its leaders , that will ultimately follow antichrist. The church will not bring peace and safety that the world wants. Until Christ second coming the world which is under the curse of sin and its evils and corruption, there will be no world peace. The man of sin will promise it but it won't last. All that is in the world and of it will be judged, just as it says in Rev 18   

God bless

My brother, it was God who made His chosen Church into a country just as it was God who made the slaves out of Egypt into a country and God who turned the shepherd boy David into a king.  Only God has the power to do this.  His Church will not follow the antichrist because God promised that the gates of Hell will not prevail against His church, and God does not lie.  He always keeps His promise. 

You say that the Catholic Church will not bring peace and safety that the world wants?  My brother, it was never the duty of the church to bring world peace and safety in the first place.   That was never our mission.  God sent His Church to spread the Good News - that Christ loved the world so much that He gave His life to bring redemption and forgiveness of sins to mankind. 

God bless,
Selene

Quote from: mclees8 on Sat Nov 28, 2009 - 17:52:51

Dear Selene Yes God chooses but you do not know who he chooses, or for what specific purpose he chooses them. He said hear the prophets. Did they look like the church.
God bless

In many places the Catholic Church is foreshadowed in the Old Testament.


The Magisterium
In Exodus 18 we find Moses settling disputes and acting as God's representative to the people. His father-in-law (Jethro) enquired why he sat there all day. Moses said:-

"The people come to me to consult God. Whenever they have a disagreement, they come to me to have me settle the matter between them and make known to them God's decisions and regulations.

Quote from: Selene on Mon Nov 30, 2009 - 21:08:21

Quote from: mclees8 on Mon Nov 30, 2009 - 08:28:16
But know this and i know you will scoff, The church of Rome ( the papacy) has set itself up to be the political moral guidepost for the world and its leaders , that will ultimately follow antichrist. The church will not bring peace and safety that the world wants. Until Christ second coming the world which is under the curse of sin and its evils and corruption, there will be no world peace. The man of sin will promise it but it won't last. All that is in the world and of it will be judged, just as it says in Rev 18   

God bless

• My brother, it was God who made His chosen Church into a country just as it was God who made the slaves out of Egypt into a country and God who turned the shepherd boy David into a king.  Only God has the power to do this.  His Church will not follow the antichrist because God promised that the gates of Hell will not prevail against His church, and God does not lie.  He always keeps His promise. 
  

Sorry Selene it was not God who ordained the papacy or made the church a political power. the bishops of Rome were greedy for power and lied using a forgery saying their power was a gift from Constantine. You will not find one scripture in the New Testament that even suggests the church was to rule religiously and politically  the empire. I have gone over this a dozen times. use some commen sense here. just think. The church existed five hundred long years with out political ambition. Not until Constantine was the church excepted by Rome. Five hundred years from the birth of the church. If the lord for ordained any bishop to be a supreme political religious power of  the Empire and known world, he surely would have mentioned it.    E

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ven the Lord himself denied Satan in the temptation to  have the whole world if he would worship Him.    

• You say that the Catholic Church will not bring peace and safety that the world wants?  My brother, it was never the duty of the church to bring world peace and safety in the first place.   That was never our mission.  God sent His Church to spread the Good News - that Christ loved the world so much that He gave His life to bring redemption and forgiveness of sins to mankind. 
  

God bless,
Selene

Well selene you have it right Now tell the papacy that. Tell the pope the next time he visits the UN. ask yourself what is this connection with the leaders of the world. do you think he is preaching the message you just stated.

Quote from: winsome on Tue Dec 01, 2009 - 04:21:54

Quote from: mclees8 on Sat Nov 28, 2009 - 17:52:51

Dear Selene Yes God chooses but you do not know who he chooses, or for what specific purpose he chooses them. He said hear the prophets. Did they look like the church.
God bless

In many places the Catholic Church is foreshadowed in the Old Testament.


The Magisterium
In Exodus 18 we find Moses settling disputes and acting as God's representative to the people. His father-in-law (Jethro) enquired why he sat there all day. Moses said:-

"The people come to me to consult God. Whenever they have a disagreement, they come to me to have me settle the matter between them and make known to them God's decisions and regulations.

Quote from: mclees8 on Tue Dec 01, 2009 - 06:40:36

Quote from: winsome on Tue Dec 01, 2009 - 04:21:54

Quote from: mclees8 on Sat Nov 28, 2009 - 17:52:51

Dear Selene Yes God chooses but you do not know who he chooses, or for what specific purpose he chooses them. He said hear the prophets. Did they look like the church.
God bless

In many places the Catholic Church is foreshadowed in the Old Testament.


The Magisterium
In Exodus 18 we find Moses settling disputes and acting as God's representative to the people. His father-in-law (Jethro) enquired why he sat there all day. Moses said:-

"The people come to me to consult God. Whenever they have a disagreement, they come to me to have me settle the matter between them and make known to them God's decisions and regulations.

Quote from: winsome on Tue Dec 01, 2009 - 08:41:03

Quote from: mclees8 on Tue Dec 01, 2009 - 06:40:36

Quote from: winsome on Tue Dec 01, 2009 - 04:21:54

Quote from: mclees8 on Sat Nov 28, 2009 - 17:52:51

Dear Selene Yes God chooses but you do not know who he chooses, or for what specific purpose he chooses them. He said hear the prophets. Did they look like the church.
God bless

In many places the Catholic Church is foreshadowed in the Old Testament.


The Magisterium
In Exodus 18 we find Moses settling disputes and acting as God's representative to the people. His father-in-law (Jethro) enquired why he sat there all day. Moses said:-

"The people come to me to consult God. Whenever they have a disagreement, they come to me to have me settle the matter between them and make known to them God's decisions and regulations.

Quote from: mclees8 on Tue Dec 01, 2009 - 09:59:49

Quote from: winsome on Tue Dec 01, 2009 - 08:41:03

Quote from: mclees8 on Tue Dec 01, 2009 - 06:40:36

Quote from: winsome on Tue Dec 01, 2009 - 04:21:54

Quote from: mclees8 on Sat Nov 28, 2009 - 17:52:51

Dear Selene Yes God chooses but you do not know who he chooses, or for what specific purpose he chooses them. He said hear the prophets. Did they look like the church.
God bless

In many places the Catholic Church is foreshadowed in the Old Testament.


The Magisterium
In Exodus 18 we find Moses settling disputes and acting as God's representative to the people. His father-in-law (Jethro) enquired why he sat there all day. Moses said:-

"The people come to me to consult God. Whenever they have a disagreement, they come to me to have me settle the matter between them and make known to them God's decisions and regulations.

Quote from: winsome on Tue Dec 01, 2009 - 10:04:27

Quote from: mclees8 on Tue Dec 01, 2009 - 09:59:49

Quote from: winsome on Tue Dec 01, 2009 - 08:41:03

Quote from: mclees8 on Tue Dec 01, 2009 - 06:40:36

Quote from: winsome on Tue Dec 01, 2009 - 04:21:54

Quote from: mclees8 on Sat Nov 28, 2009 - 17:52:51

Dear Selene Yes God chooses but you do not know who he chooses, or for what specific purpose he chooses them. He said hear the prophets. Did they look like the church.
God bless

In many places the Catholic Church is foreshadowed in the Old Testament.


The Magisterium
In Exodus 18 we find Moses settling disputes and acting as God's representative to the people. His father-in-law (Jethro) enquired why he sat there all day. Moses said:-

"The people come to me to consult God. Whenever they have a disagreement, they come to me to have me settle the matter between them and make known to them God's decisions and regulations.

Quote from: mclees8 on Tue Dec 01, 2009 - 13:46:21

Quote from: winsome on Tue Dec 01, 2009 - 10:04:27

Quote from: mclees8 on Tue Dec 01, 2009 - 09:59:49

Quote from: winsome on Tue Dec 01, 2009 - 08:41:03

Quote from: mclees8 on Tue Dec 01, 2009 - 06:40:36

Quote from: winsome on Tue Dec 01, 2009 - 04:21:54

Quote from: mclees8 on Sat Nov 28, 2009 - 17:52:51

Dear Selene Yes God chooses but you do not know who he chooses, or for what specific purpose he chooses them. He said hear the prophets. Did they look like the church.
God bless

In many places the Catholic Church is foreshadowed in the Old Testament.


The Magisterium
In Exodus 18 we find Moses settling disputes and acting as God's representative to the people. His father-in-law (Jethro) enquired why he sat there all day. Moses said:-

"The people come to me to consult God. Whenever they have a disagreement, they come to me to have me settle the matter between them and make known to them God's decisions and regulations.

Quote from: mclees8 on Tue Dec 01, 2009 - 06:32:11
Well selene you have it right Now tell the papacy that. Tell the pope the next time he visits the UN. ask yourself what is this connection with the leaders of the world. do you think he is preaching the message you just stated.

My brother, the Pope has been preaching the message all along.  Didn't you know that the number of Catholic believers have increased especially in Africa and Asia?  The Pope meets with world leaders only because he is a "Head of State" himself, but the Pope also speaks to the people of those countries he visits.  And when he speaks, it is not just the Catholics who listen.  The African and Asian continents usually have a large number of pagans, and the Catholics have been very successful in increasing the number of Catholics in these continents.  The number of bishops have also increased.  According to a report: 

However, there are some areas where Catholic growth was greater than population growth. There was an increase of 3.1% of Catholics in Africa, whose population has grown by slightly less than 2.5%, the communiqué said.
"The Asian and American continents have also registered a higher increase in Catholics than in population growth, 2.71% against 1.18% for Asia, and 1.2% against 0.9% for America," continued the Vatican statement. There was a slight increase of Catholics in Europe.
The Pontifical Yearbook revealed that the number of diocesan and religious priests rose to 406,411 from 405,891, a relative increase of 0.13%. The percentage increases were much higher in Asia and Africa, 3.8% and 3.55%, respectively, it noted. This is in contrast to "Europe and America with a percentage decrease of about a half point, and Australia, with a fall of 1.8%" in the number of priests.
Africa and Asia proportionately had more priests, the Vatican statement noted: "Africa and Asia together provided 19.58% to the world's overall number in 2004; in 2005 their contribution had risen to 20.28%."  

There needs to be no man standing between you and your God.  Or only the God-Man, Christ Jesus, if you want to see it that way.

Honor whom you will if you feel they deserve honor -- men who labor for you in the Lord would deserve some thanks and honor and compensation, sure.  And be grateful for your fellow Christians in the trenches, your church, the Lord's Bride.

But there's you, and there's the Father/Son/Spirit.  No man can stand between you.

Quote from: janine on Tue Dec 01, 2009 - 22:08:13
There needs to be no man standing between you and your God.  Or only the God-Man, Christ Jesus, if you want to see it that way.

Honor whom you will if you feel they deserve honor -- men who labor for you in the Lord would deserve some thanks and honor and compensation, sure.  And be grateful for your fellow Christians in the trenches, your church, the Lord's Bride.

But there's you, and there's the Father/Son/Spirit.  No man can stand between you.

God has always used man to communicate with His church and even with His chosen people.  He used the prophets to get his message across, and He used the Apostles to spread His Gospel. 

Christ, the Mediator, is also the Head of the Church. If you can understand that the very nature of the Church as the Mystical Body of Christ, then you can better appreciate that Jesus lives and acts in His Church through His divine Word in Scripture, the Liturgies, the Mass and Sacraments. Then we see that it is not a mere man, but Jesus Christ, the Son of God and Savior who acts through the power of the Holy Spirit. Do you not believe that God uses human beings to carry out His Will?

God uses people to communicate with us. For example, the Gospels record that Jesus sent out the twelve and others of his followers with the same power and authority that he possessed. In fact, Jesus even promised his disciples, "he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do (Jn. 14:12). As you can see, Jesus himself established certain ways or "channels" of sharing his life and power with humankind. The Apostles knew that they were not Jesus when they performed miracles (Acts 5:12-16) or when they forgave sins, but they knew that Jesus was present with them and through them when they did those things in his name.

God communicated His forgiveness and the giving of the Holy Spirit through the Apostles (Acts 8:17). The Apostles were only human channels of God's way of communicating with us. It is the same of our priests and bishops. This is what the Church still continues to do since apostolic times.

Peace be with you,
Selene