Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?

[Rella]

Hi Rella,

And a Happy New Year to you and yours.  Hope you are staying safe...and thank you for reading and digesting...

I did not write in my comment that it was a voluntary decision for Satan to be cast out of heaven down to earth for a "short time".  Of course, it wasn't a voluntary action in John's statement that Satan had come down unto the earth in great wrath for a "short time".   Satan was "cast down to earth", and "had come down" to the earth... neither of these was a voluntary choice for Satan.  Satan's own wrathful response tells us that this was not a voluntary decision of his to be limited only to the earth's domain after he was cast out of heaven. 

But you are missing my point altogether.  If John said that Satan had already been loosed on earth for a "short time" in great wrath, then that means without a doubt that the millennium was already over and done by the time Revelation was being written.  Because the millennium was supposed to be "finished" at the time Satan was loosed on earth for a "little season". ( This will need to be addressed later)  This is merely comparing Revelation by itself to make this deduction. 


No it does not and it needs to be addressed..... but the most important thing you need to answer is WHAT TRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE DO YOU FOLLOW?  Leaving the millennium and Satan out of this for a while..... let's address the first part of your reply here.

You need to prove... beyond a doubt ... what is meant by a short time.

You have been very hung up by this "short time" statement. But  you need to dig  to see what Paul might mean when he says "the time is short.  Is this an eschatological statement? Or does is merely reflect some kind of local crisis in Corinth? Something else?

You are of the belief ( correct me if I am wrong) "The time is short"  because Jesus Christ set in motion with His death, burial, and glorious resurrection a movement toward a telos: the completion of the universal Church of God, the bride of Christ, and her glorification with Him in new heavens and a new earth  as we are told in 2 Peter 3:13.

Yet the NASB 95 updated says "the time has been shortened"

As does the American Standard Version

Gods Word Translation

The Lexington English Bible

AND the 1890 Darby Bible says the time is straightened.

Has been shortened does not carry the same understanding as a short time.

By example... If a man is expecting to live to 90 and by illness died at the age of 75

Some might say he was not very old because his life has been  shortened.  While others might say he lived a short time because he was not very old.  They do not mean the same thing.

So, as you continue to use short time as your basis for your beliefs... you need to quantify why you believe that short time is as you believe and that it is not a simple misunderstanding that the original meaning was ... has been shortened.

WE must always be aware that To God, however, who views time completely differently from the way we view it, the time is very short indeed. For with God, a day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day (2 Peter 3:8). We are therefore not to lose heart, not only because His return is imminent, but also because each and every Christian has but a few short years in which to Occupy till Jesus comes... Luke 19:13.

The Revelation 20:5 text tells us also that the thousand years would culminate with the remnant of the dead living again as being the first resurrection event.  If you don't recognize that Christ rising from the dead as the "First-fruits" along with the Matthew 27:52-53 saints is the "First resurrection" event, then we have reached a communication impasse.  The "First-fruits" WAS the "First Resurrection" event, which gives Christ the preeminence.  This means the literal millennium finished on Christ's resurrection day.  If you can't recognize this, well, you just can't, that's all.  It's not a salvific issue. 

And Satan and his angels were not cast out of heaven before Jesus was born.  He was cast out of heaven when the male child was caught up to God and to His throne.  That was Christ's ascension on His resurrection day. 

You ask "WHERE" Satan was bound during the time that he had access to heaven.  You are mistaking the bottomless pit for a physical location.  It isn't.  It is a status, or a condition.  Just as Romans 10:7 tells us that Christ was also in the "abyss" for three days and nights, meaning His physical body was lying inert in the grave for that time.  The "bottomless pit" or the "abyss" (abusson) is an expression that describes a non-functioning condition.  It isn't a place per se.  Satan was in a chained, restricted condition for those literal thousand years that did not allow him to deceive the nations as he had freely been able to do before then.   God had "bound" the "strong man" at the beginning of the millennium back in 968 / 967 BC, and Christ and His disciples took advantage of his already-bound condition to "spoil his goods" by casting out devils during His earthly ministry. 

This chained-up, sealed condition on Satan's deception of the nations was released at Christ's ascension that resurrection day.  This is why (just as Joel 2:28-29 prophesied) God poured out His Spirit on all flesh in those days, both men and women of all ages and classes of society.  This helped to equip the believers in dealing with this ramped up level of Satanic wrathful oppression when he was loosed on the world for that "short time" and "little season", just before his destruction.

[3 Resurrections]

Hi Rella,

Your question about the length of time a 'short time" lasts is actually immaterial to the case I am making.  It's a moot point.  Regardless of how long that "short time" was, makes no difference to the fact that this "short time" or "little season" after the millennium expired had already begun as John was writing Revelation, according to Revelation 12:12.  Which consequently means that the millennium had ended prior to the time Revelation was composed. 

Why is this so difficult to understand?

[4WD]

Why is this so difficult to understand?

Because you are wrong.

[3 Resurrections]

4WD, you aren't even trying to address the two texts in Revelation that I am comparing with each other.   

[Rella]

Hi Rella,

Your question about the length of time a 'short time" lasts is actually immaterial to the case I am making.  It's a moot point.  Regardless of how long that "short time" was, makes no difference to the fact that this "short time" or "little season" after the millennium expired had already begun as John was writing Revelation, according to Revelation 12:12.  Which consequently means that the millennium had ended prior to the time Revelation was composed. 

Why is this so difficult to understand?

Hi 3 Rs,

You asked "Why is this so difficult to understand?" And you responded to 4WD with
4WD, you aren't even trying to address the two texts in Revelation that I am comparing with each other.

Well I am using Rev., but I also need include important points from Mathew and Luke,
primarily because these were during the time you claim Satan was bound.

"Why is this so difficult to understand?"

Because not once have you ever said why Satan was bound for 1000 years starting in 968/967 BC , and then cast to earth on at Christ's ascension on His resurrection day.
We know that the perfectly created  angel , Lucifer, grew into rebellion and wanted to be higher then God.
But that would not be a reason for being bound 1000 years to be cast to earth on Jesus' ascension.

( And while you are looking to discount what I say here... please explain ... IF Satan was bound for the 1000 years prior to Christ's ascension on His resurrection day who was it who tempted Jesus in the wilderness as we are told in Luke 4: and Mathew 4:?

8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: (Jesus called him that)(Was he wrong?) for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Mathew 14:10

10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Luke 4:

13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.( which could not be IF he was bound during this time)

Especially when Rec 20: 1-3 states
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, (REASON)  so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

So your beliefs that Satan was bound for 1000 years before being cast to earth is not true as Rev 20 shows us.

And we see that an angel came down from heaven  and threw him into the pit.

That, my friend , was right here on earth... as is shown in the very book of the bible you are making your arguments from.

[3 Resurrections]

Rella, perhaps you have never read them, but I have already made comments before on why Satan was bound for that literal thousand years starting in 968.967 BC until AD 33. 

It has a lot to do with the discussion about the divine council that God set up over the nations of the world back in Peleg's time.
Also related to the total of 7,000 years of mankind's history on this planet from the Fall to the final judgment, and how Satan's biography intersects with that. 
Also related to the reason for God allowing the presence of evil in this world to have persisted, in spite of God's reign over the world. 
Also related to Satan being used as a judgment tool to bring about the end of the Jewish commonwealth in the AD 70 era, and to bring God's vengeance upon them for murdering His Son.
Also related to Satan instigating the Sea Beast's war on the saints, to maximize the number of martyred believers that would be able to participate in the AD 70 bodily resurrection.       

And it is not me that is pinning down this time of Satan being bound.  It's John in Revelation 12:12 compared with Revelation 20:3 and 7, which no one can seem to bring themselves to seriously consider.

And you are still operating under the impression that the "abusson", the "abyss", or the "bottomless pit" which kept Satan bound is a location which can be pointed to on a map somewhere.  It's not a place.  It's a CONDITION OR STATUS of something that is not in its usual operating mode.  It was not necessary for Satan to go out of existence or out of the world to be in a "chained" and "sealed" condition and not allowed to deceive the nations during this literal thousand years.   This "pit" is not a place here on earth, as you suppose.  This idea is not found anywhere in the scripture.

Just because Satan's deception of the nations was chained made no difference in his retaining the title of "the Prince of this world".  His temptation of Jesus in the wilderness had nothing to do with deceiving Christ or the nations, so I'm not sure how you think that this is a problem for what I am stating.  To be restricted from deceiving the nations for a thousand years has no bearing on Satan going from place to place in this world, either. 

[4WD]

4WD, you aren't even trying to address the two texts in Revelation that I am comparing with each other.   

3 Res, I think that you are so fundamentally wrong with your entire approach to the meaning of Revelation, that discussing the meaning of a couple of verses just doesn't accomplish very much.

I understand Revelation to be an account, a prophecy, about the entire church age from Christ's first coming to His second coming at the end of the age, the end of the age being described by Peter in chapter three of his second letter.  You necessarily discuss Revelation, including the two texts that you are comparing with each other, from a preterist point of view. Since I hold that view to be so completely wrong, the nuances of a couple of texts is not likely to make much difference in the real meaning of anything presented in Revelation.

Thus when you posted,

Hi Rella,
Your question about the length of time a 'short time" lasts is actually immaterial to the case I am making.  It's a moot point.  Regardless of how long that "short time" was, makes no difference to the fact that this "short time" or "little season" after the millennium expired had already begun as John was writing Revelation, according to Revelation 12:12.  Which consequently means that the millennium had ended prior to the time Revelation was composed.

, and then asked, "Why is this so difficult to understand?", I answered quite truthfully.  I told you why it is so difficult to understand.  It is difficult to understand because it is wrong.  Your entire approach to anything in Revelation is wrong.  The preterist approach to interpreting and understanding the message of Revelation is wrong.

As to the whole question posed by the OP, RB answered it quite nicely and accurately in his reply #1 where he posted

The bodily resurrection of both the just and unjust takes place on the last day.

The 1000 years are symbolic of a period of time beginning at the start of NT church age at the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and will continue until the last day of this world as we now know it.

He said a lot more in that reply, but those first couple of sentences answered the question asked.

[Rella]

Rella, perhaps you have never read them, but I have already made comments before on why Satan was bound for that literal thousand years starting in 968.967 BC until AD 33. 

3R.. I am certain I have read them with out giving much though to your reasoning because your logic is fallible.

You say until 33AD. Where do you get that specific date from because the crucifixion happened at some time before 33 AD based on the recorded history that we know...

In Matthew 2, it makes it clear that Jesus was conceived during the reign of King Herod and was born under the same.

To differentiate between which Herod Jesus was conceived and born under let us consider

Herod The Great

Historical records identify the Herod in this passage as Herod the Great. He was the ruler of Judea at this time. He appears in the following verses in the New Testament:  Matthew 2:1, 3, 7, 12, 13, 16, 19, 22 and Luke 1:5.

While it has been considered by most authoritarians and still most historians today depend upon the work of Emil Schurer who wrote in A.D. 1890 that Herod the Great died in 4 B.C. ( which would put your date of Jesus' ascension before 33 AD as he would have been born at the latest in 4BC  but more likely 5 or 6 BC because of Herod's order to slaughter the male children from 2 years of age and under.

But new info has come to light by a man named of Finegan.  His detailed information is impressive. He demonstrates that Herod Philip died in the 22nd year of Tiberius (A.D. 35-36), rather in the 20th year. This shifts the death of Herod the Great from 4 B.C. to 1 B.C. and in turn shifts the birth of Christ to 2 or 3 B.C.

This matters little to the conversation at hand but does indicate that Jesus was not crucified, nor had his ascention in 33 AD but at some point before that.



It has a lot to do with the discussion about the divine council that God set up over the nations of the world back in Peleg's time.
Also related to the total of 7,000 years of mankind's history on this planet from the Fall to the final judgment, and how Satan's biography intersects with that. 
Also related to the reason for God allowing the presence of evil in this world to have persisted, in spite of God's reign over the world. 
Also related to Satan being used as a judgment tool to bring about the end of the Jewish commonwealth in the AD 70 era, and to bring God's vengeance upon them for murdering His Son.
Also related to Satan instigating the Sea Beast's war on the saints, to maximize the number of martyred believers that would be able to participate in the AD 70 bodily resurrection.       

And it is not me that is pinning down this time of Satan being bound.  It's John in Revelation 12:12 compared with Revelation 20:3 and 7, which no one can seem to bring themselves to seriously consider.

There is no understandable tie in  for this between those two verses and Chapter 12.

Lets look at that chapter 20.... Ill use KJV as that is what most are familiar with, even though it is full of errors and misconceptions.

REV 20: 1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven,  having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. ( So John saw an angel come down from heaven?. Come down to where?)

REV 20: 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

REV 20 :3  And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

(This was when the angel came down (to where?) and chained Satan and sealed him into the bottomless pit for 1000 years.
Because if the angel was already in heaven then he could not have come down to heaven to chain Satan and if the angel was on earth already and Satan in heaven still .... he would have had to go up!!!!!!!!)

REV 20:7   And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

REV  20:8  And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

When Satan is loosed out of his prison it says he shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth.

(There is no mention of being cast out from heaven after being loosed... it says once he is loosed he shall go out to deceive .
Not down)

CONTINUING:

REV 12: 7-12

7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

(This casting out from heaven into the earth, I submit, IS NOT when the angel cast Satan into the bottomless pit)

10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.[/color] ( He has not been bound at this point yet.... anywhere)

And you are still operating under the impression that the "abusson", the "abyss", or the "bottomless pit" which kept Satan bound is a location which can be pointed to on a map somewhere.  It's not a place.  It's a CONDITION OR STATUS of something that is not in its usual operating mode.  It was not necessary for Satan to go out of existence or out of the world to be in a "chained" and "sealed" condition and not allowed to deceive the nations during this literal thousand years.   This "pit" is not a place here on earth, as you suppose.  This idea is not found anywhere in the scripture.

Yes it is.... right there in Rev 20: 3

Just because Satan's deception of the nations was chained made no difference in his retaining the title of "the Prince of this world".  His temptation of Jesus in the wilderness had nothing to do with deceiving Christ or the nations, so I'm not sure how you think that this is a problem for what I am stating.  To be restricted from deceiving the nations for a thousand years has no bearing on Satan going from place to place in this world, either.

Rev 12 and Rev 20 cannot be compared because the entire book was written with 3 thoughts. Past, present and future.
And it is the future of Rev 20 that has yet to take place .

John was told to write...  The things which thou hast seen... The things which are and ...The things which shall be hereafter..

And until and unless one realizes this they will be forever wandering in wrong directions.

[3 Resurrections]

Hi Rella,

Why do I have the feeling that if I told you that, as a Preterist, I ascribe to the virgin birth, that you would find a way to disagree with that as well?  Anybody reading this exchange should be able to tell that you are avoiding a very plain argument of two Revelation texts being compared by simply waving your hand over them to dismiss them.  That is a lazy way to deal with scripture, and betrays a bias on your side.  Are you telling us that if you had been there, you would have scoffed at what Balaam's donkey said, simply because it was an ass who was stating those things?  It shouldn't matter a twit who or what the source of the scripture text is. 

For myself, I have no argument with RB's off-topic statement that there is a bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust at the last day.  I believe this point in addition to my stated views.   But his statement that the millennium lasts all the way to the end of the last day of this world as we know it cannot possibly be true.  That is because Satan was supposed to be loosed to deceive the nations once more at the end of the millennium, according to Revelation 20:3, 7-8.  How can Satan be loosed to deceive the nations once more for a short time when the conditions in the world as we know it will come to an end at the last day with that final judgment?  These ideas totally contradict each other. 

You say that the AD 33 date for Christ's crucifixion has very little to do with the subject at hand, but it does.  Christ's crucifixion and subsequent resurrection are the pivotal point for ALL of prophecy.  Get that wrong, and you do indeed wander off in wrong directions. 

It is very simple to pin down the AD 33 date for the crucifixion.  Compare what the Pharisees told Christ in John 2:20 on His very first Passover in Jerusalem.  "FORTY-SIX YEARS was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?"  Herod's temple renovations began back in AD 17.  Forty-six full years later is AD 30, at the beginning of Christ's public ministry.  Three and a half years later He is crucified in AD 33.  Christ was about 36 years old when He died, and about 30 years old when He was baptized in AD 27.

As for the Revelation 12 text about Satan being cast out of heaven, I agree with you that this is NOT the time when Satan was cast into the abyss, because that was long before back in 968/967 BC.  Satan's being cast out of heaven coincided with the time when He was RELEASED from the condition of being bound by the abyss.  It doesn't matter where Satan's presence actually was when he was bound.  God can impose a restricted condition upon an angelic being regardless of their physical location.  I repeat...the abyss is NEVER identified anywhere in scripture with a specific place .  It is a state of being, or a condition imposed on something.  Even Christ's body was said to be in the abyss while his body was in a state of death. Romans 10:7 shows us just how we are to interpret what an "abysmal" condition actually is.

You are not quite on target with the 3 main points of focus for Revelation.  Yes, John was told to write about past and present things he had seen and was seeing.  But he was to write more specifically than just "things that are to come" in the distant future.  He was to write about "things that are ABOUT TO BE HEREAFTER".  As you have said, the KJV tends to obscure things.   It is the more accurate rendering of the Greek word "mello" which should be included.   Unfortunately, the KJV and other versions with similar mistranslations have sent eschatology students wandering off in the wrong direction with their interpretations.

[RB]

For myself, I have no argument with RB's off-topic statement that there is a bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust at the last day.  I believe this point in addition to my stated views.   But his statement that the millennium lasts all the way to the end of the last day of this world as we know it cannot possibly be true.  That is because Satan was supposed to be loosed to deceive the nations once more at the end of the millennium, according to Revelation 20:3, 7-8.  How can Satan be loosed to deceive the nations once more for a short time when the conditions in the world as we know it will come to an end at the last day with that final judgment?  These ideas totally contradict each other.

Hold on 3 Resurrections~I had to go back to see when and why I made that statement and it was not to you and truly it was not off-topic. My statement was made two months ago and it was the second post of this thread to Rob, not you~and, if you look at his opening point my response back was certainly not off-topic as you claim.

I'll let you finish posting with Rella, and then I will answer your words spoken against what I said to be the truth. Btw, my position does not contradict God's word but your newfound revelation out of the pits of hell.

[3 Resurrections]

RB, What I meant when I wrote "off-topic" was that this point was off-topic to the comparison between the two texts of Revelation 12:12 and Revelation 20:3 & 7 that I was discussing with Rella.  Not that you were off-topic to the original post, if that clears anything up.  Perhaps I should have gone back through the post and found for myself where you had made those comments about the millennium's ending.  I was copying what Rella said you had said.  Are you saying she quoted you incorrectly?  If so, I don't mind being set straight.

"The pits of hell"?!  that's a bit of overkill, RB.  You should save your large shot for more critical topics that truly have a bearing on our salvation.   

[Rella]

Hi Rella,

Why do I have the feeling that if I told you that, as a Preterist, I ascribe to the virgin birth, that you would find a way to disagree with that as well?  Anybody reading this exchange should be able to tell that you are avoiding a very plain argument of two Revelation texts being compared by simply waving your hand over them to dismiss them.  That is a lazy way to deal with scripture, and betrays a bias on your side.  Are you telling us that if you had been there, you would have scoffed at what Balaam's donkey said, simply because it was an ass who was stating those things?  It shouldn't matter a twit who or what the source of the scripture text is. 

For myself, I have no argument with RB's off-topic statement that there is a bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust at the last day.  I believe this point in addition to my stated views.   But his statement that the millennium lasts all the way to the end of the last day of this world as we know it cannot possibly be true.  That is because Satan was supposed to be loosed to deceive the nations once more at the end of the millennium, according to Revelation 20:3, 7-8.  How can Satan be loosed to deceive the nations once more for a short time when the conditions in the world as we know it will come to an end at the last day with that final judgment?  These ideas totally contradict each other. 

You say that the AD 33 date for Christ's crucifixion has very little to do with the subject at hand, but it does.  Christ's crucifixion and subsequent resurrection are the pivotal point for ALL of prophecy.  Get that wrong, and you do indeed wander off in wrong directions. 

It is very simple to pin down the AD 33 date for the crucifixion.  Compare what the Pharisees told Christ in John 2:20 on His very first Passover in Jerusalem.  "FORTY-SIX YEARS was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?"  Herod's temple renovations began back in AD 17.  Forty-six full years later is AD 30, at the beginning of Christ's public ministry.  Three and a half years later He is crucified in AD 33.  Christ was about 36 years old when He died, and about 30 years old when He was baptized in AD 27.

As for the Revelation 12 text about Satan being cast out of heaven, I agree with you that this is NOT the time when Satan was cast into the abyss, because that was long before back in 968/967 BC.  Satan's being cast out of heaven coincided with the time when He was RELEASED from the condition of being bound by the abyss.  It doesn't matter where Satan's presence actually was when he was bound.  God can impose a restricted condition upon an angelic being regardless of their physical location.  I repeat...the abyss is NEVER identified anywhere in scripture with a specific place .  It is a state of being, or a condition imposed on something.  Even Christ's body was said to be in the abyss while his body was in a state of death. Romans 10:7 shows us just how we are to interpret what an "abysmal" condition actually is.

You are not quite on target with the 3 main points of focus for Revelation.  Yes, John was told to write about past and present things he had seen and was seeing.  But he was to write more specifically than just "things that are to come" in the distant future.  He was to write about "things that are ABOUT TO BE HEREAFTER".  As you have said, the KJV tends to obscure things.   It is the more accurate rendering of the Greek word "mello" which should be included.   Unfortunately, the KJV and other versions with similar mistranslations have sent eschatology students wandering off in the wrong direction with their interpretations.

3R,

I asked you before which translation is your preference. You never answered.

I said I used KJ which is not my choice but because there are those reading here who will not read anything else.

If you feel there are other translations with similar mistranslations I do wish you would name them so I can avoid them when exchanging with you.

I am not ignoring the contents in this reply  but I want to interject another area that is not from KJV so you should not find fault with it... but I am sure you will as I am sure it wont be your approved reading list.

Addressing a section of Revelation 20 again and expanding it.

Rev 20: 1-4

20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain [a]in his hand.

2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

You use this in alleging proof that when Jesus was ressurected and ascended that finished the 1000 year. ( We will ignore the BC start of this 1000 years.)

4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,

8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the [c]seashore

If you want another translation Ill be happy to provide my Greek interlinear one tomorrow.

Why can you not see Satan is bound while Jesus is reigning on earth for 1000 years and  will not be released until the 1000 years of Jesus reign is a near the prophetic end?

[3 Resurrections]

Hey again Rella,

I'm sorry, I forgot you asked about my preferred translation.  It's either the Interlinear or the YLT or the LXX, since all of them recognize the full impact of the Greek terms of imminence that scripture employs.  For memorization, however, I am so familiar with the KJV from my childhood that it is the easiest for me to quote without looking up.  And as you say, there are those who will ignore all other translations but that one, so out of deference to them when I am discussing scripture with them, I'll revert to the KJV many times.  Sort of the "all things to all men" kind of thing, you know.  And I have no problem with comparing every translation when doing careful word studies of a passage.  Because they can all bring something to the table. 

You asked why I could not see that Satan is bound while Jesus is reigning on earth.  Actually, it never says Jesus is on earth for this entire 1,000 reign with the saints, although the years of Christ's incarnation were part of it at the very end of the millennium.  Jesus is not now bodily upon the earth, yet you and I are presently said to "reign in life by one, Jesus Christ" (Romans 5:17).  This was the same "reign" of the second person of the Trinity which the OT believers shared back in Solomon's temple days.  The incarnate Jesus did not yet have to be upon the earth for these living OT saints to share in the benefits of God binding Satan and restricting him from deceiving the nations during those literal thousand years.   

The Lord's reign over the earth from heaven is emphasized repeatedly in the Psalms with verses such as "Say among the heathen that the Lord reigneth...", (Ps. 96:10), and "The Lord reigneth, let the earth rejoice" (Ps. 97:1).  "The Lord reigneth; let the people tremble" (Ps. 99:1) "The Lord hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all." (Ps. 103:19).   

The perpetuity of the Lord's reign is expressed in verses like, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre." (Ps. 45:6), or "Thy throne is established of old, thou art from everlasting." (Ps. 93:2).   The Lord's reign is not limited to a mere thousand years; that thousand-year time limit is put upon SATAN and his deception of the nations.  For the length of time that Satan's deception was bound, the glory of God's perpetual kingdom reign was magnified even more. The believers who lived during that time were able to participate in that increased blessing of God's reign being magnified by Satan's deception being shut down for the thousand years.   

In the middle of all these highlighted texts emphasizing the Lord's reign in Psalms, there is a curious statement by the aging King David in Ps. 102:11-15 that I believe applies to the beginning of the millennium about to come when Solomon would lay the foundation stone of the temple.  King David said, "My days are like a shadow that declineth; and I am withered like grass.  But thou, O Lord, shalt endure forever; and thy remembrance unto all generations.  Thou shalt arise, and have mercy upon Zion: for the time to favour her, yea, the SET TIME is come.   For thy servants take pleasure in her stones, and favour the dust thereof.  So the heathen shall fear the name of the Lord, and all the kings of the earth thy glory." 

The Greek for this "set time" carries the sense of a prophetically-appointed time period of significance.  David knew that God intended and promised that his own son Solomon as a man of peace would build a temple for Him.   David had prepared materials in abundance for this temple.  When Solomon's temple foundation stone would be laid in place, so too would "the set time" of the millennium be launched with the binding of Satan's deception of the nations; when the special time of God's favour to Zion would begin; when He would have mercy upon her.  The result would be that the heathen would fear the name of the Lord.  And we know that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom - the opposite of Satan and his deception of the heathen nations.   

[RB]

I'm sorry, I forgot you asked about my preferred translation.  It's either the Interlinear or the YLT or the LXX, since all of them recognize the full impact of the Greek terms of imminence that scripture employs.  For memorization, however, I am so familiar with the KJV from my childhood that it is the easiest for me to quote without looking up.  And as you say, there are those who will ignore all other translations but that one, so out of deference to them when I am discussing scripture with them, I'll revert to the KJV many times.  Sort of the "all things to all men" kind of thing, you know.  And I have no problem with comparing every translation when doing careful word studies of a passage.  Because they can all bring something to the table.

With a "few" exceptions (Geneva, etc) all others are liken unto fast foods cooked with old grease over and over again! Amen from the KJV corner. 

[Rella]

Hey again Rella,

I'm sorry, I forgot you asked about my preferred translation.  It's either the Interlinear or the YLT or the LXX, since all of them recognize the full impact of the Greek terms of imminence that scripture employs.  For memorization, however, I am so familiar with the KJV from my childhood that it is the easiest for me to quote without looking up.  And as you say, there are those who will ignore all other translations but that one, so out of deference to them when I am discussing scripture with them, I'll revert to the KJV many times.  Sort of the "all things to all men" kind of thing, you know.  And I have no problem with comparing every translation when doing careful word studies of a passage.  Because they can all bring something to the table. 

You asked why I could not see that Satan is bound while Jesus is reigning on earth.  Actually, it never says Jesus is on earth for this entire 1,000 reign with the saints, although the years of Christ's incarnation were part of it at the very end of the millennium.  Jesus is not now bodily upon the earth, yet you and I are presently said to "reign in life by one, Jesus Christ" (Romans 5:17).  This was the same "reign" of the second person of the Trinity which the OT believers shared back in Solomon's temple days.  The incarnate Jesus did not yet have to be upon the earth for these living OT saints to share in the benefits of God binding Satan and restricting him from deceiving the nations during those literal thousand years. 

I must disagree that Jesus is not living on earth during the millennium.

The millennium or  millennial kingdom) is the 1,000-year reign of Jesus after the tribulation and before the Great White Throne Judgment of the wicked.

During this time , Jesus will reign as king over Israel and all the nations of the world (Isaiah 2:4   He shall judge between the nations, and shall decide disputes for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

Now if Jesus is not living on earth during this time then he is doing a frequent commute. Maybe staying at Jerusalems Motel 6 while here? (They keep the light on)

The world will live in peace . Isaiah 32:18 18  My people will abide in a peaceful habitation, in secure dwellings, and in quiet resting places., and, at the beginning, everyone will worship God Isaiah 2:2–3  2  lIt shall come to pass in the latter days
that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established as the highest of the mountains, and shall be lifted up above the hills; and all the nations shall flow to it,

3  and many peoples shall come, and say: "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob,
that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths." For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem..

Do you disagree that the purpose of the 1,000-year reign is to fulfill various promises God made to the world? Some of these promises, called covenants, were given specifically to Israel. Others were given to Jesus, the nations of the world, and creation. Jesus' 1,000-year reign will be a time of promises kept?

The Lord's reign over the earth from heaven is emphasized repeatedly in the Psalms with verses such as "Say among the heathen that the Lord reigneth...", (Ps. 96:10), and "The Lord reigneth, let the earth rejoice" (Ps. 97:1).  "The Lord reigneth; let the people tremble" (Ps. 99:1) "The Lord hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all." (Ps. 103:19).   

The perpetuity of the Lord's reign is expressed in verses like, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre." (Ps. 45:6), or "Thy throne is established of old, thou art from everlasting." (Ps. 93:2).   The Lord's reign is not limited to a mere thousand years; that thousand-year time limit is put upon SATAN and his deception of the nations.  For the length of time that Satan's deception was bound, the glory of God's perpetual kingdom reign was magnified even more. The believers who lived during that time were able to participate in that increased blessing of God's reign being magnified by Satan's deception being shut down for the thousand years.   

In the middle of all these highlighted texts emphasizing the Lord's reign in Psalms, there is a curious statement by the aging King David in Ps. 102:11-15 that I believe applies to the beginning of the millennium about to come when Solomon would lay the foundation stone of the temple.  King David said, "My days are like a shadow that declineth; and I am withered like grass.  But thou, O Lord, shalt endure forever; and thy remembrance unto all generations.  Thou shalt arise, and have mercy upon Zion: for the time to favour her, yea, the SET TIME is come.   For thy servants take pleasure in her stones, and favour the dust thereof.  So the heathen shall fear the name of the Lord, and all the kings of the earth thy glory." 

The Greek for this "set time" carries the sense of a prophetically-appointed time period of significance.  David knew that God intended and promised that his own son Solomon as a man of peace would build a temple for Him.   David had prepared materials in abundance for this temple.  When Solomon's temple foundation stone would be laid in place, so too would "the set time" of the millennium be launched with the binding of Satan's deception of the nations; when the special time of God's favour to Zion would begin; when He would have mercy upon her.  The result would be that the heathen would fear the name of the Lord.  And we know that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom - the opposite of Satan and his deception of the heathen nations.  

But I say it is basically irrelevant if Jesus is ruling from heaven or earth. The fact is it will be for 1000 years while Satan is bound and there is no way possible you can make this binding during the time span you claim.

[Rella]

With a "few" exceptions (Geneva, etc) all others are liken unto fast foods cooked with old grease over and over again! Amen from the KJV corner. 

Prove it. Please 

[4WD]

RB, most modern English translations, including even the NJKV, are not revisions of the KJV. They are translations from texts of the available manuscripts in the original languages.

[3 Resurrections]

Hi RB,

I like me some "fast food" every now and then ...it seems to work for The Beacon in Spartanburg...


For Rella,

If, as you say, it is "basically irrelevant" if Christ is either on earth or in heaven during those thousand years, then what's the dispute?  My basic point is that the reign of God has always been from everlasting to everlasting.  This perpetual reign is manifested more openly to the world at certain times, but that doesn't mean His reign waxes or wanes in its level of power.  When we discuss the specific, literal millennium portion of this perpetual reign, we are speaking of a particular segment of time when God tamped down on Satan's deceptive activity to allow the more rapid progress of His kingdom in this world.

This was the purpose of raising up King David, and subsequently his son King Solomon who established the beginning of the stationary, physical temple worship system in Jerusalem (which is what characterized the millennium).  It was only a type; a picture of God's established presence among mankind which would later be realized by the Holy Spirit dwelling forever within the saints - never to leave them.

There is no indication whatever in scripture that the millennium must follow the Great Tribulation.  What DOES "immediately" follow the Great Tribulation is Christ's second coming return in great glory for the saints, which He then takes to heaven so that wherever He is, they can be also.

You wrote of "covenants kept" during this millennium.  Yes, God always keeps promises, and to the ones He promises them to.  He predicted in the Isaiah 32 text you brought up a restoration of peace and prosperity in Israel, which was most definitely brought about in the post-exilic return.  Directly in the middle of the millennium years. 

The prophet Habbakuk 3:2 prayed that God would "revive Thy work in THE MIDST OF THE YEARS".  This "revival" God performed for His people Israel in the MIDDLE OF THE MILLENNIUM during the post-exilic return period when He said His Spirit would remain among them.  He said He would give "peace of soul" to those laboring to rebuild His temple in those days.  Because one day the Messiah would be brought into that temple as a newborn baby, filling it with more glory than Solomon's temple ever had. 

The millennium was never intended to be the ultimate experience of peace on earth.  It was only a foretaste of even greater things to come with Christ as the True Temple foundation stone, and we believers as "living stones" being built upon that foundation. 

[RB]

Prove it. Please 

Say pretty please. I'll work on this from my understanding, I do not claim to be an expert by any means.

[RB]

Hi RB,

I like me some "fast food" every now and then ...it seems to work for The Beacon in Spartanburg...

The Beacon in Spartanburg, is great from what I have heard, never visited the place but have heard others who have. That's about forty-five miles from Easley, a little too far to go for Hamburgers, etc. Now, Sherry would love to go there if I would take her~but she has not been that good of a girl to take that ride just for fast food. 

[3 Resurrections]

Well, Boston may have its "Green Dragon" tavern for being the "headquarters of the Revolution" for Washington, Hancock, Franklin and the like, but down here, we've got the Beacon, don't we? Seems like every known or wannabe-known politician hits that watering hole with regularity.   It's not just the hamburgers and fries; it's the political sauce on top of them. 

But hey, since when did Sherry have to earn a trip out of town for a treat?! 

[Rella]

Say pretty please. I'll work on this from my understanding, I do not claim to be an expert by any means.

Not until you take Sherry to the Beacon

[Rella]

Hi RB,

I like me some "fast food" every now and then ...it seems to work for The Beacon in Spartanburg...


For Rella,

If, as you say, it is "basically irrelevant" if Christ is either on earth or in heaven during those thousand years, then what's the dispute?  My basic point is that the reign of God has always been from everlasting to everlasting.  This perpetual reign is manifested more openly to the world at certain times, but that doesn't mean His reign waxes or wanes in its level of power.  When we discuss the specific, literal millennium portion of this perpetual reign, we are speaking of a particular segment of time when God tamped down on Satan's deceptive activity to allow the more rapid progress of His kingdom in this world.

From everything I have read throughout the written words in the bible
it seems perfectly clear by the way they are phrased that Jesus was on earth
during the 1000 years of the millennium, but will spare you references as it truly does not matter to  your contention that Satan was bound from 968/967 BC thru 33 AD

We have been told over and over again that the millenium would be a time 
characterized by health, prosperity, satisfaction, and longevity as can be seen  early on in Isa. 65:18-25. Isaiah's description of the earthly kingdom in the earliest of the prophetic writings of the Old Testament suggestive of of the millennial age is one

Isa 65:18 and part 19
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing, And her people a joy.
19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem, And joy in My people;

Now before you say this is not the 1000 years... this is what I read those 1000 years will be like.

I also perfectly understand and see during the Millennial Kingdom Jesus will be physically present on earth. And this is the time Satan is bound. Rev proves this IMHO

And I say this because at that time, the literal body of Christ Himself will be seated on the throne of David and ruling from Jerusalem.

Remember that His sitting on the throne of David is clearly linked with His reign over the house of Jacob (Israel). Today Christ is Head over the Church which is His body. It is not until the future millennium that Christ will rule over the house of Jacob. It is then that the kingdom will be restored again to Israel.

And it is during this 1000 years that Satan will be bound.

Your contention that Satan has already  been bound, before Jesus was ever born. Before Jesus was known to anyone makes zero sense.

If what you claim is true... With a millennial age of peace that has been described there certainly is no reason for God to have sent Jesus to earth toward  the end of those 1000 wonderful years... especially when we know they were not wonderful at all.

Satan was bound to keep him from his evil influences on the nations and then God felt Jesus had to come to start His ministry after 1000 years of wonderful life?

No... not reasonable at all.

The 1000 years of Satan being bound, and that wonderful 1000 years of life on earth with Jesus reigning over all and then Satan being loosed for a short time?  That did not happen when you said it did. It is impossible and you can spin all the scriptures you want... you still cannot provide where Jesus reigned over the earth, either here or spiritually from heaven for nearly 1000 years before he was born while Satan was bound.

This was the purpose of raising up King David, and subsequently his son King Solomon who established the beginning of the stationary, physical temple worship system in Jerusalem (which is what characterized the millennium).  It was only a type; a picture of God's established presence among mankind which would later be realized by the Holy Spirit dwelling forever within the saints - never to leave them.

There is no indication whatever in scripture that the millennium must follow the Great Tribulation.  What DOES "immediately" follow the Great Tribulation is Christ's second coming return in great glory for the saints, which He then takes to heaven so that wherever He is, they can be also.

You wrote of "covenants kept" during this millennium.  Yes, God always keeps promises, and to the ones He promises them to.  He predicted in the Isaiah 32 text you brought up a restoration of peace and prosperity in Israel, which was most definitely brought about in the post-exilic return.  Directly in the middle of the millennium years. 

The prophet Habbakuk 3:2 prayed that God would "revive Thy work in THE MIDST OF THE YEARS".  This "revival" God performed for His people Israel in the MIDDLE OF THE MILLENNIUM during the post-exilic return period when He said His Spirit would remain among them.  He said He would give "peace of soul" to those laboring to rebuild His temple in those days.  Because one day the Messiah would be brought into that temple as a newborn baby, filling it with more glory than Solomon's temple ever had. 

The millennium was never intended to be the ultimate experience of peace on earth.  It was only a foretaste of even greater things to come with Christ as the True Temple foundation stone, and we believers as "living stones" being built upon that foundation.

[RB]

But hey, since when did Sherry have to earn a trip out of town for a treat?!

Please do not tell her what I said.  But she knows me, I'm nothing but a big marshmallow when it comes to her. She tells me all the time~you are all talked, Mr. Sugar Daddy! Her nickname for me with the children and grandchildren~ "Mr. Softly"...she said to them you always go to your dad and Papa because you know he will give in....AND SHE IS RIGHT, not a good trait to be known by.

[RB]

Can I jump into the argument between you two?  I can wait until one of you stop if you like, no problem.

[Jaime]

Yeah Red, Papa in our family is a HUGE softie. One time one of the grand daughters ran crying profusely to Nana exclaiming, "Papa said no to me."

[Rella]

Can I jump into the argument between you two?  I can wait until one of you stop if you like, no problem.

Between who? 3R and me or another two? 

That would be up to 3R. ( If you are referencing us)

I know you are not a preterist but you always disagree with me and am slightly curious of where you would take this debate.
But 3R will decide.

[RB]

Between who? 3R and me or another two? 

That would be up to 3R. ( If you are referencing us)

I know you are not a preterist but you always disagree with me and am slightly curious of where you would take this debate.
But 3R will decide.
[/quote]Yes you two~Back to the truth of AMill idealist.

[3 Resurrections]

Hey, this wasn't a post I originated, so I'm not really the one in charge of steering the direction of the comments or limiting who can post.  Jump in anywhere you want, RB.  I know I'm not going to be able to change either of you crusty individuals - you've both got your own paradigms pretty much set in place, and there's not much I can do to convince you otherwise - I know that.

I'm just writing to avoid 3 rather nasty workroom projects on my table at the moment.  I need the money for getting brick and landscaping stone to wrap my new workroom addition, but that doesn't make these 3 projects any fun to tackle. 

To keep my point about the millennium very, very simple, these are the questions I have that my two texts answer:

Q: When is Satan released for a "little season"?
A: Satan is released for a "little season" when the millennium period of his restraint is "finished" and "expired", according to Revelation 20:3 and 7.

Q:  When does John say that Satan's brief period of a "little season" begins?
A:  John gives a warning to his readers in Revelation 12:12 that Satan's "short time" had already started, because Satan had already come down to them, knowing he had only a "short time" to operate.

The ONLY argument I am trying to prove for the moment with these two texts is WHEN THE MILLENNIUM ENDED.  I am NOT concentrating on how long this millennium actually is, or when it began, or when the Great Tribulation is, or what characterized the millennium's conditions, or any of those other side issues.  If anyone is dealing honestly with these two texts, it should be as plain as the nose on your face that the millennium period "expired" and was "finished" back in the first century, even before John wrote Revelation. 

Now, if one wants to debate that a "little season" and a "short time" are two different things, that might be the start of a discussion, but it would be a real stretch to deny that they are the same thing.

[RB]

I'm just writing to avoid 3 rather nasty workroom projects on my table at the moment.  I need the money for getting brick and landscaping stone to wrap my new workroom addition, but that doesn't make these 3 projects any fun to tackle. 

I have some beautiful landscaping stones you can have free if you come and get them, or I can bring them.

[Rella]

Hey, this wasn't a post I originated, so I'm not really the one in charge of steering the direction of the comments or limiting who can post.  Jump in anywhere you want, RB.  I know I'm not going to be able to change either of you crusty individuals - you've both got your own paradigms pretty much set in place, and there's not much I can do to convince you otherwise - I know that.

I'm just writing to avoid 3 rather nasty workroom projects on my table at the moment.  I need the money for getting brick and landscaping stone to wrap my new workroom addition, but that doesn't make these 3 projects any fun to tackle. 

To keep my point about the millennium very, very simple, these are the questions I have that my two texts answer:

Q: When is Satan released for a "little season"?
A: Satan is released for a "little season" when the millennium period of his restraint is "finished" and "expired", according to Revelation 20:3 and 7.

Q:  When does John say that Satan's brief period of a "little season" begins?
A:  John gives a warning to his readers in Revelation 12:12 that Satan's "short time" had already started, because Satan had already come down to them, knowing he had only a "short time" to operate.

The ONLY argument I am trying to prove for the moment with these two texts is WHEN THE MILLENNIUM ENDED.  I am NOT concentrating on how long this millennium actually is, or when it began, or when the Great Tribulation is, or what characterized the millennium's conditions, or any of those other side issues.  If anyone is dealing honestly with these two texts, it should be as plain as the nose on your face that the millennium period "expired" and was "finished" back in the first century, even before John wrote Revelation. 

Now, if one wants to debate that a "little season" and a "short time" are two different things, that might be the start of a discussion, but it would be a real stretch to deny that they are the same thing.

But you miss my point... yet again.

And lets not call it the millenim any longer as that word is not in the bible anywhee that I can recall without searching and I dont have time at the moment for that.

1.  When Satan is bound the 1000 years ( biblical so there can be no debate as to how long... other then in Gods time a day is yada yada) Jesus is reigning over everything and every one. Again biblical ( Can provide scriptur later if you need them)

2.  When Jesus is reigning... either spiritually from heaven or physically on the throne of David (biblical) the world will finally be at peace.

Do you argue either of these?

then my point is...

C. When Jesus was ruling over the nations in the 1000 years.... that would have been a definitive period of knowledge of all things God... with or without Jesus (if He was still in heaven)

d. People would have been properly worshipping GOD.

IV. There would be no reason then for Jesus to need to be born of a virgin and end up crucified and buried and resurrected because Jesus' ministry was to bring people back into the fold of God and He sent his disciple to preach it.

NOW as to the short time... I WILL GIVE YOU THAT simply because when Satan is loosed at the end of the 1000 years, he has but a short time before the Great White Throne Judgement. Satan has but 1 final rebellion before his end and the GWT judgement occurs....

V Ergo.... Your timing and understanding on this are all wrong

[3 Resurrections]

Hey RB,

You're a generous guy, and I know you would be as good as your word, but I would have to crawl out of my hiding place to meet with you, and I can't do that yet.  I promise, however, that if and when my partner dies, I will invite you to the funeral, and we can meet up then.  You are probably in better health than they are.

For Rella,

Sigh.  Those are all peripheral issues that I'm not even touching.  Those are just a diversion from the very plain fact that the two texts I am concentrating on show us that the millennium came to an expired end loooooong ago, which was before John was writing Revelation.  We aren't even discussing how long a "little season" actually lasts, or what happens to Satan at the end of that "little season".  Forget ALLLLLLLLLLLLLL of those things.  Concentrate on just ONE THING ONLY - please.  WHEN DID THE THOUSAND YEARS END?  That's it.  NOTHING ELSE.  I repeat - NOTHING ELSE BUT THAT.

[Rella]

Hey RB,

You're a generous guy, and I know you would be as good as your word, but I would have to crawl out of my hiding place to meet with you, and I can't do that yet.  I promise, however, that if and when my partner dies, I will invite you to the funeral, and we can meet up then.  You are probably in better health than they are.

For Rella,

Sigh.  Those are all peripheral issues that I'm not even touching.  Those are just a diversion from the very plain fact that the two texts I am concentrating on show us that the millennium came to an expired end loooooong ago, which was before John was writing Revelation.  We aren't even discussing how long a "little season" actually lasts, or what happens to Satan at the end of that "little season".  Forget ALLLLLLLLLLLLLL of those things.  Concentrate on just ONE THING ONLY - please.  WHEN DID THE THOUSAND YEARS END?  That's it.  NOTHING ELSE.  I repeat - NOTHING ELSE BUT THAT.

Ummm RB. WE are currently done for this round....

So feel free to have at us.

[RB]

Hey RB,

You're a generous guy, and I know you would be as good as your word, but I would have to crawl out of my hiding place to meet with you, and I can't do that yet.  I promise, however, that if and when my partner dies, I will invite you to the funeral, and we can meet up then.  You are probably in better health than they are.

I would indeed, God forbid I would be otherwise.

I was hoping (against hope, I'm sure) you would uncover your secret face to me. I'm getting toward the end of my time on earth, most likely I will never know.

Hey, these landscaping stones are beautiful, leftover from a job last summer.

[RB]

For Rella,

Sigh.  Those are all peripheral issues that I'm not even touching.  Those are just a diversion from the very plain fact that the two texts I am concentrating on show us that the millennium came to an expired end loooooong ago, which was before John was writing Revelation.  We aren't even discussing how long a "little season" actually lasts, or what happens to Satan at the end of that "little season".  Forget ALLLLLLLLLLLLLL of those things.  Concentrate on just ONE THING ONLY - please.  WHEN DID THE THOUSAND YEARS END?  That's it.  NOTHING ELSE.  I repeat - NOTHING ELSE BUT THAT.

I understand this is to Rella, but since she blew you a kiss and said goodbye, I thought it would be a good time to step in.

Let me go back to when you first jumped into this discussion, you said:

Back to the original question of the post...

So, let us goes back to the very first post:

The resurrection both of the just and the unjust takes place on the last day but Revelation 20:4-5 separates the resurrection by 1000 years. Which is symbolic?

Rob has not posted in two months on this thread, he was also a guest so I cannot tell when the last time he even visited the forum being just a "guest". SO, he's not here to even add thoughts to all he was seeking for in this discussion. Nevertheless, let's look at his statement again:

The resurrection both of the just and the unjust takes place on the last day but Revelation 20:4-5 separates the resurrection by 1000 years. Which is symbolic?

A closer look at Revelation 20:4,5 does not separate the bodily resurrection of all men by a thousand years.

Revelation 20:4,5~"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

These two scriptures are not speaking of an bodily resurrection, but are teaching us the biblical essence of what 'IS" the first resurrection.

The first resurrection is a spiritual rebirth , and those who were born again worshipped Jesus Christ and NOT the beast (or, the anti-Christian system of this world) evidence by not receiving the beast mark upon their foreheads, signifying in agreement with this world's system, nor "IN" their right hand, signifying in fellowship with them:

Galatians 2:9~"And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

Concening the first resurrection being a spiritual rebirth this is exactly what Christ spoke of in John 5 when he taught the people and said these words:

John 5:21-29~"For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

So, to answer Rob's question:

The resurrection both of the just and the unjust takes place on the last day but Revelation 20:4-5 separates the resurrection by 1000 years. Which is symbolic?

concerning the bodily resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous Revelation 20: 4,5 does not separate them a thousand years for John was NOT describing a bodily resurrection but a spiritual resurrection how they who experience THIS FIRST resurrection shall continue to live on during the thousand years which ARE symbolic of a period of time during which Satan was restrained, or bound so that the Gentiles nations could hear and receive the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Re: Is the "Last Day" symbolic or is the "1000 Years" symbolic?

The thousand years without question!

It is not a question of the millennium and the last day being EITHER symbolic or NOT being symbolic.  As many other texts in scripture...it is BOTH symbolic AND literal at the same time.  Just as the literal number of 12 apostles became the symbolic foundation of the New Jerusalem, which is also composed of literal, living bodies of believers, and is also symbolic of the holy city of God's presence among mankind.

The literal time period of a thousand years for the millennium is quite simple to pin down when we compare Revelation with itself.  According to Revelation 20:3 and 7, we know that Satan was supposed to be loosed on earth from his restricting chain FOR ONLY A "LITTLE SEASON" when the millennium period had "expired" or was "finished".  This is a specific point on the calendar when the millennium came to an end - not a vague, indeterminate state of things in this world with no precise ending or beginning.

Compare this loosing of Satan in Revelation 20:3 and 7 to what John wrote elsewhere about Satan's loosing on earth.  He claimed in Revelation 12:12 that Satan had already come down to the earth with great anger, knowing that his "SHORT TIME" of operating in this world would not last for long.  If John said that Satan was ALREADY loosed into the world for that same "SHORT TIME", (the "LITTLE SEASON" at the millennium's end), then this tells us that the millennium was already over and done with by the time John was writing Revelation.

The millennium came to an end when Satan was cast out of heaven with his angels in Revelation 12.  This was accomplished when Christ ascended to heaven on the morning after His resurrection.  Because all the legal requirements for the saints' justification had been met by Christ's actions on our behalf, the "accuser of the brethren" didn't have a leg to stand on in heaven's court anymore.  After that point, Satan and his angels were banned from heaven's realm for all time; cast down to earth for Satan's last, desperate attempt to persecute the saints during his "short time" of being loosed on earth.  This "short time" or "little season" lasted from the year AD 33 until AD 66 when he and his angels finally became imprisoned in the city of Jerusalem, as Isaiah 24:21-23 had foretold.  God used that location of the city of Jerusalem for the destruction of Satan and his angels, along with every unclean spirit passing out of the land at that point, as Zechariah 13:2 had foretold would happen along with the destruction of AD 70 besieged Jerusalem.   

The symbolism behind this very literal thousand-years millennium was the entire period of a physical temple worship system in Israel, which began ever since Solomon had laid the foundation stone of the Temple back in 968/967 BC.  It served its purpose for the time being, and helped to bring the knowledge of the God of Israel into repute among the nations, thus limiting Satan's deception.  But once Christ at His resurrection became the True Foundation Stone of the True Temple NOT made with hands, the period of this physical temple worship system had truly "finished" and "expired".   

Later.....RB