Is there a present burning hell where departed souls of the wicked are sent?

[Rella]

Rella:

    Although God has a spirit form—that is, non-physical, yet He has appeared to mankind in many forms. Remember the Transfiguration? Jesus, Moses, and Elijah supernaturally appeared to the Twelve, although Moses and Elijah had been physically dead for centuries.

    Too, God has appeared to mankind in angelic form, which appeared to the human eye as physical, such as the occasion when the angel Gabriel visited Mary. God appeared to Abraham in the form of two angels, which appeared to have human form.

    But to clarify even more, the apostle John writes, "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" [John 4:24].

Buff

Yes. I agree with all you say.

I also believe that if God chose to come to earth and appear as an upright, wingless man, He could... as well as being a tangible substance one could touch. With God all things are possible.

But too many refuse to see that possibility.

I FIRMLY BELIVE that when God created man in their image... it was not their spiritual end of things He was talking about but that man's physical form looked like the image of God.... and man's spirit and soul became man's triune being.

We know... or some of us do that Jesus came as God on earth.

In the same form that man was originally created.

Jesus also did possess what some would call supernatural powers from healings to changing water into wine, to multiplying food, to walking on water.

At all times he had his human shape. He touched the 12 as well as others... HE DID NOT shape shift in order to do things.

He died and went to heaven and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father... Or dont you believe that?

No matter.

If He... ( God the  son)..  is sitting he has a derrière.  and on God the Father's right hand... (There is that hand again.)

If this were not true then we would have been told simply that Jesus is with the Father waiting to judge...........

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Seriously?? It is hard for me to believe you think that.  That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Is this universe infinite? I don't think so.  Is it imbedded within another physical universe or perhaps it is one of the multiverses some scientists are promoting?  Or perhaps heaven is actually one of those multiverses.  What do you think Jesus meant when He spoke about our Father in heaven (Matt 5:16)?  Do you think that heaven is physical, corporeal?

HeavenS - that word is plural.  Yes, I believe the heavens physically exist within this plane of existence.  Not only does the Bible say so, but I can also look up and see them with my own eyes.

But just as often spiritual means supernatural such as imparted spiritual gifts (Rom 1:11), supernatural meaning beyond natural, beyond physical, beyond corporeal.

Supernatural isn't a word the Bible ever uses.  It does contrast spiritual with natural (1Cor 15), but there natural is ψυχικός (psychikos) - that which is discerned with human logic.  Which brings us back to the true meaning of spiritual - it acts in the world through a mechanism which is unseen or unknown.

Jarrod

[4WD]

Wow, I do believe that you are definitely over-thinking the subject of heaven(s), or maybe it is under-thinking it. And it seems that it is really screwing up your idea of spiritual.

What does it mean in Hebrews 4:14 where is says that Jesus has "passed through the heavens"? Or what does it mean in Ephesians 4:10 where is says that Jesus ascended far above all the heavens? I could continue, but I think I will stop there.









'

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Wow, I do believe that you are definitely over-thinking the subject of heaven(s), or maybe it is under-thinking it. And it seems that it is really screwing up your idea of spiritual.

I think you're the one over-thinking.  The idea of alternative dimensions or alternate realities is something that doesn't exist in the Bible, or anywhere else for that matter up until 100 years ago.

I don't equate spiritual with heavens.  So I don't see how the one definition would screw with the other.  That seems like a problem for those who do equate the two.

What does it mean in Hebrews 4:14 where is says that Jesus has "passed through the heavens"? Or what does it mean in Ephesians 4:10 where is says that Jesus ascended far above all the heavens? I could continue, but I think I will stop there.

It just means what it says.  Do you find the literal meaning untenable?

Jarrod

[4WD]

I have no problem at all with the literal.  Where do you think "far above all the heavens" is?  Where do you think God was before He created this universe?

And I really don't believe in the multiverse theories.  I think there is only one physical universe; and this is it.  It is finite both in time and size and not the abode of God or the angels.

[Rella]

When the term "heaven" is not used symbolically in Scripture, it usually refers to one of three realms.

1... Our Immediate Atmosphere

2... Outer Space (The Sun, Moon, And Stars)

3... The Home Of God

The Bible speaks of three different heavens.

Genesis 1:1 says that God created "the heavens"—plural.

The first heaven is the atmosphere around the earth. In describing the rain that brought on  Noah's flood, Genesis 7:11 says "the windows of heaven were opened."

The second heaven is commonly referred to as "outer space."

Exodus 32:13 is one of many references to "the stars of heaven."

Stars are not in the skies from which the rain falls, but in the space beyond our atmosphere. Nehemiah 9:6 also refers to space as heaven:  Thou, even thou, art Lord alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

A "third heaven" is mentioned in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4.

Paul also called it "Paradise" in verse 4.

That word is from the Greek word for park or garden—not just any park or garden, but a magnificent one. It's the same word used in the standard Greek translation of the Old Testament, the Septuagint, to mean the Garden of Eden.


The third heaven, which Paul was told not to describe, is where God dwells.

The apostle John saw the city of heaven and, unlike Paul, was told to write down what he saw. This is part of the book of Revelation, the spiritual vision of the end times and the coming of Christ

[Reformer]

Rella:

    In reference to your Post #105, I agree with most of what you submitted relative to SPIRIT vs. PHYSICAL. I disagree with one element of your post, however. It is my understanding from the scriptures that man's spirit was made in God's image. I say that because "God is spirit," not tangible or physical.

Anyway, thanks a bushel for your Reply.

Kindly,

Buff

[Reformer]

Rella:

    Oh, I forgot to answer your question about Jesus being on the right hand of God. Yes, the biblical testimony describes Jesus as being on the right hand or right side of God. I have no problem with that. The statement might very well indicate, and probably does, levels of authority between Father and Son instead of direction or location.

Buff

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Where do you think "far above all the heavens" is?

The highest heaven.  God is referred to as "Most High" and "The Highest" throughout the Old Testament.  The intertestamental apocrypha spells it out in detail, enumerating the various heavens and assigning the highest one to God Himself.

Where do you think God was before He created this universe?

That question doesn't even make sense.

I think there is only one physical universe; and this is it.  It is finite both in time and size and not the abode of God or the angels.

You don't have a very good handle on omnipresence.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

When the term "heaven" is not used symbolically in Scripture, it usually refers to one of three realms.

1... Our Immediate Atmosphere

2... Outer Space (The Sun, Moon, And Stars)

3... The Home Of God

The Bible speaks of three different heavens.

Genesis 1:1 says that God created "the heavens"—plural.

The first heaven is the atmosphere around the earth. In describing the rain that brought on  Noah's flood, Genesis 7:11 says "the windows of heaven were opened."

The second heaven is commonly referred to as "outer space."

Exodus 32:13 is one of many references to "the stars of heaven."

Stars are not in the skies from which the rain falls, but in the space beyond our atmosphere. Nehemiah 9:6 also refers to space as heaven:  Thou, even thou, art Lord alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

A "third heaven" is mentioned in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4.

Paul also called it "Paradise" in verse 4.

That word is from the Greek word for park or garden—not just any park or garden, but a magnificent one. It's the same word used in the standard Greek translation of the Old Testament, the Septuagint, to mean the Garden of Eden.


The third heaven, which Paul was told not to describe, is where God dwells.

The apostle John saw the city of heaven and, unlike Paul, was told to write down what he saw. This is part of the book of Revelation, the spiritual vision of the end times and the coming of Christ

There's more than 3 heavens.  Paul's invocation of "the third heaven" is a reference to a book in the apocrypha.

This is the part where everyone and their dog tries to throw that out because it isn't canonical.  But then, why is Paul making reference to it? 

[RB]

The highest heaven.  God is referred to as "Most High" and "The Highest" throughout the Old Testament. 

Greetings Jarrod~God is referred to as "Most high and the Highest, yet I think it has reference more to his sovereignty and holiness, rather than to where he dwells.

You said to 4WD:

You don't have a very good handle on omnipresence.

Well, I know both of you do have a solid handle on this truth, yet we must remember, that God dwells in eternity not in a certain location! There is nowhere God is not already present and ruling therein!

Isaiah 43:10~"Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 57:15~"For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

This one scripture answers a few questions that you are now discussing with 4WD.

Where do you think God was before He created this universe?

You said this question does not even make sense~well it does and the answer is simple....God dwelled in eternity, completely and infinitely happy and blessed~all he has done is only to reveal to us His infinite attributes which we have only learned very little of because of His Greatness are past finding out.

Job 36:26~"Behold, God is great, and we know him not, neither can the number of his years be searched out."

[4WD]

You don't have a very good handle on omnipresence.

You don't have a very good handle on the reality of this physical universe. Omnipresence is not a description of anything physical, corporeal as you seemed to have implied in reply #106. But perhaps I misunderstood you there.  Omnipresence is, in fact, a definite departure from the essential physical, corporeal character of this universe.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Greetings Jarrod~

Hi!  Merry Christmas, almost.

God is referred to as "Most high and the Highest, yet I think it has reference more to his sovereignty and holiness, rather than to where he dwells.

Nope.  I think if you were to use a concordance and look up every instance of "most high" and "the highest" you would find that these descriptions are indeed POSITIONAL.

They do have something to do with omniscience, but nothing to do either with sovereignty or holiness.

God dwells in eternity not in a certain location!

The idea of omnipresence is that God dwells in ALL locations.  While EVERYWHERE is not a certain location, it still encompasses all of what we might think of as reality, or corporeality, or the universe, or space-time, or however you prefer to phase it.

God is not outside, elsewhere, or other.  He is HERE.

They say that Satan's greatest lie is getting people to believe he doesn't exist.  The idea that God is ABSENT must be #2 on that list, and I don't reckon it's far behind.

You said this question does not even make sense~well it does and the answer is simple....God dwelled in eternity, completely and infinitely happy and blessed~all he has done is only to reveal to us His infinite attributes which we have only learned very little of because of His Greatness are past finding out.

Nah... his question still makes no sense.  He's basically saying "there are no places at time 0" and then immediately asking "what place is God in at time 0?" 

This is roughly equivalent to saying "Atlantis does not exist" and then immediately asking "how long did you stay in Atlantis?"  This doesn't imply that you don't exist, but there is still a problem with the question.

Jarrod

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Omnipresence is not a description of anything physical, corporeal as you seemed to have implied in reply #106.

Omnipresence describes position.  If there is no space or time, position is a non-sequitur.

Existence does not require position... but omnipresence does require a position.

Omnipresence is... a definite departure from the essential physical, corporeal character of this universe.

I wouldn't say that.  It's not a departure from corporeality, it's just on a larger scope than you normally contemplate.  Consider your own position in 4-space: you're probably about 6 feet high, a foot and a half wide, and a bit under a foot in depth, depending on how many Christmas cookies you've eaten.   You have a duration of 80-90 years, perhaps.  Now consider God's position within that space.  He completely fills the space in all 4 dimensions.  That's omnipresence.

If you want to talk about God's other attributes - the ones that don't have to do with position or duration - then you should use another word.  Those exist, but there are other words for them.

Jarrod

[4WD]

Omnipresence describes position.  If there is no space or time, position is a non-sequitur.

And there is the problem of describing the existence of God and some of his qualities and characteristics in earthly terminology. Even such seemingly well understood terms such as eternal is a non-sequitur when there is no time.

It seems to me that you are trying to transfer the earthly meanings of terms inherent in the physical, corporeal universe to spiritual things. I do not agree with that even though sometimes that is the best we can do.  You are not alone in that.  it is the natural thing to do, given that we have no experiential basis for anything other than the physical, corporeal existence.  Try as they might, the best philosophers, psychologists, bioscientists, etc. cannot even provide a clear, concise and intelligible description of the conscience of man. You will get as many different descriptions as the number of different persons you ask.  That is true for the believer and the atheist alike.

You said,

Now consider God's position within that space.  He completely fills the space in all 4 dimensions.  That's omnipresence.

Even the words "position", "space" and "fill" are non-sequiturs with respect to God.  Those are inherently physical terms that you are trying to fit God into.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

And there is the problem of describing the existence of God and some of his qualities and characteristics in earthly terminology. Even such seemingly well understood terms such as eternal is a non-sequitur when there is no time.

It seems to me that you are trying to transfer the earthly meanings of terms inherent in the physical, corporeal universe to spiritual things. I do not agree with that even though sometimes that is the best we can do.  You are not alone in that.  it is the natural thing to do, given that we have no experiential basis for anything other than the physical, corporeal existence.  Try as they might, the best philosophers, psychologists, bioscientists, etc. cannot even provide a clear, concise and intelligible description of the conscience of man. You will get as many different descriptions as the number of different persons you ask.  That is true for the believer and the atheist alike.

Even the words "position", "space" and "fill" are non-sequiturs with respect to God.  Those are inherently physical terms that you are trying to fit God into.

They're only non-sense when you try applying them before there are time and space, as you did earlier.

They don't have to be non-sequiturs.  God came right on down here to our reality and existed in it. 

He still does.

[4WD]

God came right on down here to our reality and existed in it. 

Even your statement that "God came down here...." is a bit of a non sequitur. The words going, coming and down are all expressions relating to physical entities. We use them in speaking of and about spiritual beings, but there isn't really even a precise description of what they mean in the case of spiritual beings.  I don't think it matters much to even try.

[Amo]

1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

It is certainly not beyond God to exist in a bodily form in a certain place, while being omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent at the same time.

Eze 1:4 And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire. 5 Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man. 6 And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings. 7 And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass. 8 And they had the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides; and they four had their faces and their wings. 9 Their wings were joined one to another; they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward. 10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle. 11 Thus were their faces: and their wings were stretched upward; two wings of every one were joined one to another, and two covered their bodies. 12 And they went every one straight forward: whither the spirit was to go, they went; and they turned not when they went. 13 As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, and like the appearance of lamps: it went up and down among the living creatures; and the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning. 14 And the living creatures ran and returned as the appearance of a flash of lightning. 15 Now as I beheld the living creatures, behold one wheel upon the earth by the living creatures, with his four faces. 16 The appearance of the wheels and their work was like unto the colour of a beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel. 17 When they went, they went upon their four sides: and they turned not when they went. 18 As for their rings, they were so high that they were dreadful; and their rings were full of eyes round about them four. 19 And when the living creatures went, the wheels went by them: and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up. 20 Whithersoever the spirit was to go, they went, thither was their spirit to go; and the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels. 21 When those went, these went; and when those stood, these stood; and when those were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels. 22 And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above. 23 And under the firmament were their wings straight, the one toward the other: every one had two, which covered on this side, and every one had two, which covered on that side, their bodies. 24 And when they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of great waters, as the voice of the Almighty, the voice of speech, as the noise of an host: when they stood, they let down their wings. 25 And there was a voice from the firmament that was over their heads, when they stood, and had let down their wings. 26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it. 27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about. 28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

Psa 11:4  The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD'S throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.

Psa 18:6  In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even into his ears.

Mic 1:2 Hear, all ye people; hearken, O earth, and all that therein is: and let the Lord GOD be witness against you, the Lord from his holy temple. 3 For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth. 4 And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place.

Hab 2:18 What profiteth the graven image that the maker thereof hath graven it; the molten image, and a teacher of lies, that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols? 19 Woe unto him that saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach! Behold, it is laid over with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in the midst of it. 20 But the LORD is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. 13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. 2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. 3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. 4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. 5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: 6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. 7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. 8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Rev 16:17  And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. 18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

[Rella]

It is certainly not beyond God to exist in a bodily form in a certain place, while being omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent at the same time.

I agree.

Why would anyone want to limit God in any manner? 

[NyawehNyoh]

.

Why would anyone want to limit God in any manner?

• Heb 6:18 . . Heb 6:18 . . It is impossible for God to lie

• Jas 1:13 . . God cannot be tempted by evil

Those limitations are passed on to the Father's posterity.

• 1John 3:9 . . No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in them; and they cannot sin, because they are born of God.

I was created with human nature; so it's very easy to tempt me with evil-- and dishonesty in one form or another is my way of life, viz: I have a natural proclivity for white lies, bald-faced lies, deceit, dissembling, equivocation, exaggeration, slander, half truths, prevarication, false impressions, omitting facts, cover-ups, and pretense; etc.

About 50+ years ago I reasoned that were I to be somehow disconnected from human nature and endowed with the nature of God, then I too would be impervious to temptation same as He; and I too would be impervious to dishonesty same as He, viz: my normal proclivity would be honesty instead of dishonesty, and temptation would bounce off me like a golf ball thrown at a Russian tank, viz: I would be completely indifferent to evil.

Not long afterwards I discovered that the nature of God is available.

• 2Pet 1:3-4 . . His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and goodness. Through these He has given us His very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

The bottom line is: quite a few folks are on a road to Hell not so much because they sin, but because sin comes so natural to them, i.e. they can't stop.

• Jer 13:23 . . Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil.
_

[4WD]

It is certainly not beyond God to exist in a bodily form in a certain place, while being omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent at the same time.

Bodily form, by definition, precludes omnipresence.

[4WD]

Why would anyone want to limit God in any manner? 

God places limits on Himself in many ways, a couple of which are been point out by NyawehNyoh above.

[Amo]

Bodily form, by definition, precludes omnipresence.

In your own limited mind perhaps.

Joh 1:43 The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me. 44 Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. 45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph. 46 And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see. 47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! 48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee. 49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel. 50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.

Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ Himself, when here as one of us, demonstrated being present in one place in bodily form, while observing the actions of another in another place. Why must omnipresent's, require that ones body be hear or there just because they have one. Wherever they see, hear, and or experience what is, there they are also. Your understanding is too limited. Your cannot confine God to it. You are the one confined by it, not God.

[4WD]

In your own limited mind perhaps.

Joh 1:43 The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me. 44 Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. 45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph. 46 And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see. 47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! 48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee. 49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel. 50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.

Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ Himself, when here as one of us, demonstrated being present in one place in bodily form, while observing the actions of another in another place. Why must omnipresent's, require that ones body be hear or there just because they have one. Wherever they see, hear, and or experience what is, there they are also. Your understanding is too limited. Your cannot confine God to it. You are the one confined by it, not God.

Nothing in the passage you cited requires or even suggest omnipresence. Omniscience maybe, but not omnipresence.  I don't even see a strong indication of omniscience here. I am not adamant on that, but nevertheless, I can argue other points besides omniscience.

[RB]

It is certainly not beyond God to exist in a bodily form in a certain place, while being omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent at the same time.

Maybe I should not say very much on this subject since I have not read every word posted. I have glanced over them quickly.

God has never existed in body form except when His Son was born, then the Word took up His abode in the tabernacle of Jesus Christ and lived in this world bodily for around thirty-three-plus years.

Bodily form, by definition, precludes omnipresence.

Brother, not with Christ, who had a complex nature being both man and God.

John 3:13~"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

Jesus being both the Son of God and the Son of man could be everyone at once, and also NOT be everywhere at once!

John 1:48,49~"Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee. Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel."

I just saw where Amo used this verse as well. If Jesus saw him, then he WAS THERE in his Divine nature.

[4WD]

If Jesus saw him, then he WAS THERE in his Divine nature.

There in His divine nature does not mean there bodily, physically.  Besides that verse is another of those questionable passages from the KJV.  ESV, NASB, NIV do not include the phrase "who is in heaven".  Again, even if the KJV is correct, it doesn't have to mean that Jesus was in heaven physically. Several passages speak to Jesus' different natures, human and divine, that do not confuse the two (see e,g, John 6:62; John 17:6; 2 Cor 8:9 and even John 1:1).  Jesus was human in every way that we are human.  His divinity did not alter that simple truth.  The minute you reject that, you reject the very essence of Jesus as the perfect sacrifice.

[Rella]

God has never existed in body form except when His Son was born, then the Word took up His abode in the tabernacle of Jesus Christ and lived in this world bodily for around thirty-three-plus years.

Please provide biblical proof of the fact that God never existed in bodily form.

[Amo]

There in His divine nature does not mean there bodily, physically.  Besides that verse is another of those questionable passages from the KJV.  ESV, NASB, NIV do not include the phrase "who is in heaven".  Again, even if the KJV is correct, it doesn't have to mean that Jesus was in heaven physically. Several passages speak to Jesus' different natures, human and divine, that do not confuse the two (see e,g, John 6:62; John 17:6; 2 Cor 8:9 and even John 1:1).  Jesus was human in every way that we are human.  His divinity did not alter that simple truth.  The minute you reject that, you reject the very essence of Jesus as the perfect sacrifice.

Mat 3:16  And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Mar 1:10  And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

Luk 3:22  And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

Joh 1:32  And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

Jesus was fully God, and fully man, we are not. He set aside His divinity to save us. The Holy Spirit of God was upon Him, as it is offered to the saved as well. The Holy Spirit is God, and even fallen humanity has performed many miracles and defied the laws of nature by His power.

Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.

The Spirit of the Lord took the saved sinner Philip, literally from one place to another instantly. Do you not suppose He could take the sinless, pure, holy, and undefiled man Jesus Christ into the presence of whomever, where ever they might be, in the Spirit at any time. Who are you to determine that such is not and was not equivalent to Christ's literal presence on such occasions? Is God bound by your limitations? Are not the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit one? Where ever one is, are not the others there as well? Yes they are, by the very definition of omnipresence. You cannot limit God to your or our own limitations. 

Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. 18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Jesus made the above statement while here among us as one of us. Do you not believe the statement? If no, why not? If yes, why try to explain it according to your or our own limitations or understanding?

Act 1:1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: 3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: 4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. 6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. 9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Did not all the apostles see Jesus in bodily form after the His resurrection? Yes they did. They saw His spiritual body, there is a natural body and there is a spiritual body. Did not the angels who stood by say, that He would return in like manner as He departed, which would be in bodily form therefore? Yes they did.

Joh 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. 26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Did not the disciples see and even touch the Lord Jesus Christ in His resurrected spiritual body? Yes they did. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. God though is not limited in any sense by the same. Neither will the saved be any near as limited as we are now by the same either, after the resurrection. Nevertheless, there is a spiritual body.

Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. 9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? 10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. 11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

I say again, what is it to God to exist in bodily form, even if for nothing but our sakes, and still be omnipresent? Nothing at all I would imagine.

[NyawehNyoh]

.

God places limits on Himself in many ways, a couple of which are been point out by NyawehNyoh above.

When it comes to the honesty and temptation spoken of by Heb 6:18 and Jas 1:13, I do NOT believe God "places" limits on Himself. It is my firm conviction that God is just as naturally honest and impervious to temptation as I am naturally dishonest and vulnerable to temptation.

It is sometimes suggested by poorly-trained Christians that God could sin if He wanted to. Not so-- God cannot sin; it is impossible for Him to sin: which is to people's advantage because by obtaining the divine nature spoken of by 2Pet 1:2-4 they have the potential to become just as totally impervious to sin and temptation as God.

• 1John 3:9 . . No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in them; and they cannot sin, because they are born of God.

According to Jesus; folks who could only wish to God that they had His 110% sinless perfection are fortunate indeed to have such a longing.

• Matt 5:6 . . Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
_

[4WD]

There is so much wrong with the above it is hard to address it all. 

Jesus was fully God, and fully man, we are not. He set aside His divinity to save us.

If He set aside His divinity, then how could He be fully God?

The Holy Spirit of God was upon Him, as it is offered to the saved as well

The Holy Spirit was upon Jesus and that was what gave Him the power for signs, wonders and miracles.  That is not what is offered to the saved as well.  We are given the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit.  That is not for the power for signs, wonders and miracles.

The Spirit of the Lord took the saved sinner Philip, literally from one place to another instantly.

So far as I am aware, the saved sinner Philip was never put in two places at the same time, or three places, or four, or certainly not omnipresent.

Who are you to determine that such is not and was not equivalent to Christ's literal presence on such occasions? Is God bound by your limitations? Are not the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit one?

Obviously, God is not bound by my limitations, nor is He unbound by your imaginations.  Jesus promises in Matthew 28:20 that He would always be with them [His disciples].  Clearly that was not physically; He had said earlier in 26:11 that "you will not always have me".  So it would seem that He would always be with them [spiritually] but they would not have him physically.

Are not the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit one?

Yes, but only the Son took on the physical body of the human.  Neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit are ever depicted as being human or taking on the human likeness.

Did not all the apostles see Jesus in bodily form after the His resurrection? Yes they did. They saw His spiritual body,

That wasn't a spiritual body.  It was the physical body of Jesus Christ raised again to life.

I say again, what is it to God to exist in bodily form, even if for nothing but our sakes, and still be omnipresent? Nothing at all I would imagine.

And therein lies the basic problem; it is all your imagination.

[RB]

Please provide biblical proof of the fact that God never existed in bodily form.

Rella, I have guests for the next few days, so I will be brief.

Your question just proved my point. I CANNOT provide scriptures where he did! God is a Spirit, and that can never changed~he dwells in eternity now and forever~that cannot change~We see God in the person of His Son, Jesus Christ who is the express image of who God is.

Colossians 1:15~"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:"

Hebrews 1:2,3~"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;"

God is a SPIRIT, and will forever dwell in eternity, even during the everlasting kingdom on the new earth under the new heavens where Jessu Christ will be King and in subjection to God according to his humanity as the Son of God.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

God has never existed in body form except when His Son was born, then the Word took up His abode in the tabernacle of Jesus Christ and lived in this world bodily for around thirty-three-plus years.

Jesus Christ still lives.  We are His body.  Last I checked, we are here in this world, bodily even.

Jarrod

[Bemark]

Good discussion. How should we take Revelation 14:10-11? Sounds like eternal torture, not just burned up for anhilation.

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

it's the smoke that eternal. Like a reminder .I'm not that minded in science . But a sound goes on forever. You scream in fire but then you die. Your voice goes on forever.  You speak and it's like it never stops. We shall be judged by our words.

I can see this is the smoke after the fuel body has been used up. What remains , the words and action justifying Gods judgement, so none can reply. before his holy angels

[4WD]

Jesus Christ still lives.  We are His body.  Last I checked, we are here in this world, bodily even.

Seriously?? You are playing word games with that; and disingenuously so.

[RB]

Jesus Christ still lives.  We are His body.  Last I checked, we are here in this world, bodily even.     Jarrod

Two totally different doctrines.

Jesus Christ was God manifest in FLESH, we are not God manifest in the flesh, even though we have a new man created after the image of Jesus Christ where his Spirit lives within, it cannot be said that God is manifest IN THE FLESH through our body! That's borderline of blasphemy. We are sons of God, but not THE Son of God.