Sex without marriage

[DaveW]

According to the countries laws(if that country allows it) but not according to Gods teaching. God calls sex outside marriage fornication. 

Hold on there Chosen.  You first say to follow the law of the land on what constitutes legal marriage (which I agree with) but here you say the law of the land is NOT supposed to be followed, if it recognizes commonlaw marriage?

Can you explain your thinking on this, please?

[chosenone]

According to the countries laws(if that country allows it) but not according to Gods teaching. God calls sex outside marriage fornication. 

Hold on there Chosen.  You first say to follow the law of the land on what constitutes legal marriage (which I agree with) but here you say the law of the land is NOT supposed to be followed, if it recognizes commonlaw marriage?

Can you explain your thinking on this, please?

As you said Dave, follow the laws unless they are against what God teaches. Remember with the women at the well? Jesus said You have had 5 husbands, and the man you are now living with is not your husband', so that must mean that living together doesn't make you married in Gods eyes and doesn't make you husband and wife. 

[DaveW]

Chosen - that is a bad example.  The divorce law among Samaritans put it entirely on the husband and the reason given was almost always infertility. (a huge mark of shame in that culture)

And we do not know if the man who took her in after the 5 marriages and divorces had her in a sexual relationship or not. Since they were not married and Samaritan society was especially harsh on extramarital sex; I would say most likely not. So they would not have been presenting themselves as "husband and wife;" which is a requirement of commonlaw marriage in most every jurisdiction I have ever heard of.

[chosenone]

I honestly dont see what is so hard to understand here. No sex before marriage is pretty easy to understand, and if you are under the age to be allowed to  be married, then just maybe you are too young to be having sex. She may end up being someone elses wife. You may end up being someone elses husband.  If you are serious about following God then do what He teaches.   Millions wait for marriage, and millions more will in the future.   

Also to the OP, if you were to have this 'spiritual marriage' just so that you can have sex,  are you going to tell her parents that you are 'married?' Are you going to ask her father if you can 'marry' her, especially being that she is so young?  Do they know that you have had sex? Remembering that if she is very young(say 15 or 16), she is still his responsibility and under his care.  Would you live together if you see yourselves as married? Remember what God says about leaving your father and mother.  Who will pay your bills? As I said FAR more to marriage than just sex. Give yourselves time to mature and grow stronger as a Christians before you even think of marriage or sex again. 

[chosenone]

Chosen - that is a bad example.  The divorce law among Samaritans put it entirely on the husband and the reason given was almost always infertility. (a huge mark of shame in that culture)

And we do not know if the man who took her in after the 5 marriages and divorces had her in a sexual relationship or not. Since they were not married and Samaritan society was especially harsh on extramarital sex; I would say most likely not. So they would not have been presenting themselves as "husband and wife;" which is a requirement of commonlaw marriage in most every jurisdiction I have ever heard of.

As you said yourself, a couple usually have to live together for a few years first before they are considered to be common law husband and wife, even if its recognised at all, which is isn't in the majority of countries, so that would mean they are sinning for those years anyway.

I cant see that it matters why she was divorced, that wasnt my point at all, the point was that she was married to those men and not to the last one. I would think is very unlikely that a man and a woman would live together and not be in a relationship.
The implication was that they were living as if they were married but they werent.

[chosenone]

I know a young couple who married a few years back. They had to wait some time before they married because one was studying as a mature student, and they were also engaged for 18 months as well, after dating for 18 months before that. So they were fully and completely committed to each other and in their late 20's/early 30's. Every time they did something in anyway more than kissing and hugging and in anyway remotely sexual, God clearly convicted both of them separately, and they stopped. God was wanting them to wait till they married and he was warning them against going too far. If we want the best we will do what God says and not search for loopholes.   

[k-pappy]

Chosenone, please post the scripture that supports your opinion.

[avenger]

"Chosenone, please post the scripture that supports your opinion."


That will not happen.

[chosenone]

1 COR 7V2
But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband.

http://www.openbible.info/topics/no_sex_before_marriage

http://www.gotquestions.org/sex-before-marriage.html

http://christiananswers.net/q-sum/sum-f001.html

John 4v16-17
16 He told her, "Go, call your husband and come back."
17 "I have no husband," she replied.
Jesus said to her, "You are right when you say you have no husband. 18 The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true."

[k-pappy]

1 COR 7V2
But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband.

http://www.openbible.info/topics/no_sex_before_marriage

http://www.gotquestions.org/sex-before-marriage.html

http://christiananswers.net/q-sum/sum-f001.html

Ok, but as I stated, Common Law Marriage is marriage...they are man and wife, so how are they going against God's teaching, like you stated?

[chosenone]

1 COR 7V2
But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband.

http://www.openbible.info/topics/no_sex_before_marriage

http://www.gotquestions.org/sex-before-marriage.html

http://christiananswers.net/q-sum/sum-f001.html

Ok, but as I stated, Common Law Marriage is marriage...they are man and wife, so how are they going against God's teaching, like you stated?

John 4v16-17
16 He told her, "Go, call your husband and come back."
17 "I have no husband," she replied.
Jesus said to her, "You are right when you say you have no husband. 18 The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true."

Did Jesus recognised the man she had then as being married to her? 

Do you believe that a couple who merely live together are married? Or do you believe that they should actually get married as God instructs? Surely Gods commands supercede what the govt allow? The govt says that 2 men can marry but thats wrong. .

[Swiss_Guard]

A person can SAY they are married to their dog, but that doesnt mean they ARE married to their dog.

But the problem is they can be, in the legal sense at least. This is actually the crux of our dispute---humans are completely capable of making the most perverted and ridiculous things legal, while God's law is high and unchangeable. It's perfectly plausible for man and dog to be spouses in the eyes of a profoundly depraved legal system, while in the eyes of God this cannot and never will be the case. Personally, I believe we've hit an equal level of marriage-law depravity in our own society, and thus these laws are no longer binding. The servants of the evil one can't have any say or role in a Christian marriage.

[chosenone]

A person can SAY they are married to their dog, but that doesnt mean they ARE married to their dog.

But the problem is they can be, in the legal sense at least. This is actually the crux of our dispute---humans are completely capable of making the most perverted and ridiculous things legal, while God's law is high and unchangeable. It's perfectly plausible for man and dog to be spouses in the eyes of a profoundly depraved legal system, while in the eyes of God this cannot and never will be the case. Personally, I believe we've hit an equal level of marriage-law depravity in our own society, and thus these laws are no longer binding. The servants of the evil one can't have any say or role in a Christian marriage.

Thats why we are to obey the laws of our country as long as they are not against Gods laws/instructions. I am not aware of any country that makes a union with a man and a dog legal.   

[chosenone]

 1 thess 5 v 22
Avoid even the appearance of evil .

A serious Christian will want to do all he or she can to be seen to follow Gods ways, and surely not be trying to find ways around what God says because they want to have sex.

All this is irrelevant in this case anyway, because these two arent even of an age to marry.   

[avenger]

chosenone... you keep moving the goal post.

As far as I know, everyone here believes/understands that sex before marriage is a sin.

The question is:  What constitutes "marriage"?

You say it has to be "legal".

I say "legal" according to who?

You say the state.

I say any "authority" who would unite two persons of the same sex is not one whom God would have us follow.

We should be very careful with the term "legal"... and not conflate the Laws of God and man.

[chosenone]

chosenone... you keep moving the goal post.

As far as I know, everyone here believes/understands that sex before marriage is a sin.

The question is:  What constitutes "marriage"?

You say it has to be "legal".

I say "legal" according to who?

You say the state.

I say any "authority" who would unite two persons of the same sex is not one whom God would have us follow.

We should be very careful with the term "legal"... and not conflate the Laws of God and man.

IN the Uk if you marry in a church you have a pastor/vicar who is able to legally marry you according to the laws of our country, and you sign the marriage register in the church.
I don't get the  problem, we all know what getting married entails in our own countries and we all know that God tell us to get married.
As Dave said a few posts back, we are to obey the laws of our country as long as they arent against Gods laws.

[k-pappy]

So, in your view, any marriage not performed by a minister is invalid in God's eyes?

You still have not shown me scripture to support your opinion that Common Law Marriages go against God's teaching.

Do we need to be married by the state?  By a pastor?  What?  What, in your view, is a marriage in the eyes of God.

[MeMyself]

So, in your view, any marriage not performed by a minister is invalid in God's eyes?

You still have not shown me scripture to support your opinion that Common Law Marriages go against God's teaching.

Common law marriage is two people shacking up for such a long period of time that finally, they are considered "married".  I knew such a couple...they were common law married, and then one day poof! They just weren't.  He just moved on and she said "don't let the door hitcha on the way out!"
HOW is this godly?  Its not marriage at all, but just doing things one's own way and living together.

Do we need to be married by the state?  By a pastor?  What?  What, in your view, is a marriage in the eyes of God.

Marriage that is a valid one should be performed by someone who is allowed to marry.  Here is a site that says who is allowed to marry couples state by state for the U.S.
http://www.usmarriagelaws.com/search/united_states/officiants_requirements/

Marriage is NOT just deciding to move in together, otherwise the gays wouldn't be all up in arms about being allowed to do it.

[chosenone]

So, in your view, any marriage not performed by a minister is invalid in God's eyes?

You still have not shown me scripture to support your opinion that Common Law Marriages go against God's teaching.

Do we need to be married by the state?  By a pastor?  What?  What, in your view, is a marriage in the eyes of God.

No I dont think that a marriage has to be performed by a pastor, as long its its done legally according to the laws of the country you live in. Most Christians seem to want to get married in a church however. People marry in all sorts of places now. 

Please read what Jesus said to the women at the well which I have posted twice now. He didnt recognize her boyfriend/partner as her husband. If he doesn't recognise a live in partner as her husband then why should we?

Please read what I posted about avoiding even the appearance of evil. If we want to be a light for Jesus why would we want to do anything that wasnt seen to be following Gods instructions to get married? The world thinks its acceptable to just move in together, we are supposed to be different surely. 

Dave has already posted the verses that talk of obeying the laws of our country, unless they are ones that go against Gods teaching. Merely moving in together and living in sin, and at some point in a few years time being considered 'married' is hardly being a  good witness or following Gods instructions.

As I also said there is no such thing as common law marriage here anyway so it wouldnt be an option. 

Its irrelevant in this case anyway, because the op and his partner are too young to marry and are still legally children.

[k-pappy]

Common law marriage is two people shacking up for such a long period of time that finally, they are considered "married". 

Not in my state.  A couple can shack up for 50 years and still not be considered married.

On the reverse, they can sign a lease together...tell the leasing agent they are married and file that same day and be considered married via "common law."  No wedding, no JP, no marriage license application.  Simply file a declaration and you are married.

Also, if they want to end their common law marriage, they must get a divorce.

No I dont think that a marriage has to be performed by a pastor, as long its its done legally according to the laws of the country you live in. Most Christians seem to want to get married in a church however. People marry in all sorts of places now. 

In my state, if you meet the requirements, you are legally married, and you do not need to shack up for years and years.  Common Law marriage is legal and according the laws of the land.

Please read what Jesus said to the women at the well which I have posted twice now. He didnt recognize her boyfriend/partner as her husband. If he doesn't recognise a live in partner as her husband then why should we?

Please read what I posted about avoiding even the appearance of evil. If we want to be a light for Jesus why would we want to do anything that wasnt seen to be following Gods instructions to get married? The world thinks its acceptable to just move in together, we are supposed to be different surely. 

You are not listening to me.  I have never once advocated living together or "shacking up."  Never.  You have been implying that I have, please stop. 

Dave has already posted the verses that talk of obeying the laws of our country, unless they are ones that go against Gods teaching. Merely moving in together and living in sin, and at some point in a few years time being considered 'married' is hardly being a  good witness or following Gods instructions.

I have posted the requirements for Common Law marriage in my state and asked you three times to provide scripture to show that it is against God's teaching.  You have refused to do so.  Instead you are implying that I am advocating living together and that is not the case.

[chosenone]

Common law marriage is two people shacking up for such a long period of time that finally, they are considered "married". 

Not in my state.  A couple can shack up for 50 years and still not be considered married.

On the reverse, they can sign a lease together...tell the leasing agent they are married and file that same day and be considered married via "common law."  No wedding, no JP, no marriage license application.  Simply file a declaration and you are married.

Also, if they want to end their common law marriage, they must get a divorce.

No I dont think that a marriage has to be performed by a pastor, as long its its done legally according to the laws of the country you live in. Most Christians seem to want to get married in a church however. People marry in all sorts of places now. 

In my state, if you meet the requirements, you are legally married, and you do not need to shack up for years and years.  Common Law marriage is legal and according the laws of the land.

Please read what Jesus said to the women at the well which I have posted twice now. He didnt recognize her boyfriend/partner as her husband. If he doesn't recognise a live in partner as her husband then why should we?

Please read what I posted about avoiding even the appearance of evil. If we want to be a light for Jesus why would we want to do anything that wasnt seen to be following Gods instructions to get married? The world thinks its acceptable to just move in together, we are supposed to be different surely. 

You are not listening to me.  I have never once advocated living together or "shacking up."  Never.  You have been implying that I have, please stop. 

Dave has already posted the verses that talk of obeying the laws of our country, unless they are ones that go against Gods teaching. Merely moving in together and living in sin, and at some point in a few years time being considered 'married' is hardly being a  good witness or following Gods instructions.

I have posted the requirements for Common Law marriage in my state and asked you three times to provide scripture to show that it is against God's teaching.  You have refused to do so.  Instead you are implying that I am advocating living together and that is not the case.

I have posted the relevant verses several times now. 

[k-pappy]

I have posted the relevant verses several times now. 

No, you have post verses about living together. 

Let me make this clear for you:

I AM NOT ADVOCATING LIVING TOGETHER

[chosenone]

I have posted the relevant verses several times now. 

No, you have post verses about living together. 

Let me make this clear for you:

I AM NOT ADVOCATING LIVING TOGETHER

living together without having gone through the marriage ceremony isnt recognised by God as being marriage, despite the fact that the govt may recognise it as such. Just as gay marriage isnt recognised by God as being marriage, despite some govts recognising it as such. 
Just get married is surely what God says. Why is it so hard? Its what we as believers should do. Non believers will do as they like anyway. 

[k-pappy]

living together without having gone through the marriage ceremony isnt recognised by God as being marriage,

For the last time...show me a scripture that supports this opinion.  You have failed to do so...failure to do so again will cede your point.

despite the fact that the govt may recognise it as such. Just as gay marriage isnt recognised by God as being marriage, despite some govts recognising it as such. 
Just get married is surely what God says. Why is it so hard? Its what we as believers should do. Non believers will do as they like anyway. 

You keep contradicting yourself...you keep ignoring what I am saying.  It is IMPOSSIBLE to have a discussion with you.  Do you do that on purpose?  Get people so frustrated that they simply give up so you never have to admit you are wrong?

You can't have it both ways.  Either a legal marriage recognized by the state is sufficient, or it must be religious ceremony.

Which is it????????????????????????????????????

[MeMyself]

Common law marriage is two people shacking up for such a long period of time that finally, they are considered "married". 

Not in my state.  A couple can shack up for 50 years and still not be considered married.

On the reverse, they can sign a lease together...tell the leasing agent they are married and file that same day and be considered married via "common law."  No wedding, no JP, no marriage license application.  Simply file a declaration and you are married.

Wow.  Weird and I can't imagine just doing that. 
To make sure I understand...a lease signed together with the verbal claim of being married means a couple is married?  Do names get changed legally?  I had to go to the courthouse to do that.

Also, if there is nothing but a lease that ties them together in marriage, who polices them when they break up and move on?  What if they get more formally married to another person?  Are they considered bigamists?

Seems really complicated to me...

Just asking.

[chosenone]

Common law marriage is two people shacking up for such a long period of time that finally, they are considered "married". 

Not in my state.  A couple can shack up for 50 years and still not be considered married.

On the reverse, they can sign a lease together...tell the leasing agent they are married and file that same day and be considered married via "common law."  No wedding, no JP, no marriage license application.  Simply file a declaration and you are married.

Wow.  Weird and I can't imagine just doing that. 
To make sure I understand...a lease signed together with the verbal claim of being married means a couple is married?  Do names get changed legally?  I had to go to the courthouse to do that.

Also, if there is nothing but a lease that ties them together in marriage, who polices them when they break up and move on?  What if they get more formally married to another person?  Are they considered bigamists?

Seems really complicated to me...

Just asking.

Far more simple to get married properly.

[chosenone]

living together without having gone through the marriage ceremony isnt recognised by God as being marriage,

For the last time...show me a scripture that supports this opinion.  You have failed to do so...failure to do so again will cede your point.

despite the fact that the govt may recognise it as such. Just as gay marriage isnt recognised by God as being marriage, despite some govts recognising it as such. 
Just get married is surely what God says. Why is it so hard? Its what we as believers should do. Non believers will do as they like anyway. 

You keep contradicting yourself...you keep ignoring what I am saying.  It is IMPOSSIBLE to have a discussion with you.  Do you do that on purpose?  Get people so frustrated that they simply give up so you never have to admit you are wrong?

You can't have it both ways.  Either a legal marriage recognized by the state is sufficient, or it must be religious ceremony.

Which is it????????????????????????????????????

I never said that we have to get married in a church Bond,  thats what some one else suggested. As long as it legal you can get married in a swimming pool if you like, or while doing a bungee jump as one couple did.     MY step son recently married on a beach on one of the South Sea islands. He is a Christian. As long as you get married according to the laws of the country you are in, and its also in line with what God says, then its legal and proper. 
I have posted scriptures over and over, and I don't see the point of doing it again. 

[Swiss_Guard]

 

Thats why we are to obey the laws of our country as long as they are not against Gods laws/instructions. I am not aware of any country that makes a union with a man and a dog legal.

Hungary, Mexico, Romania, Finland, Brazil. With the repeal of gay marriage laws these countries decided to legalize human-animal relations as well.




Again, I have to take issue with the idea that human governments as corrupt and evil as the ones today should have any say in Christian marriages, and even with the verses you posted don't seem to totally support your point. "Avoid even the appearance of evil ."
Does not necessarily  translate to "get permission from corrupt human laws and authorities." I don't think God needs Barack Obama's approval to bless a Christian marriage.

[chosenone]

http://www.born-again-christian.info/questions/answers.132.htm

This a  good article that explains what I have been trying to about common law marriage. 

[chosenone]

Thats why we are to obey the laws of our country as long as they are not against Gods laws/instructions. I am not aware of any country that makes a union with a man and a dog legal.

Hungary, Mexico, Romania, Finland, Brazil. With the repeal of gay marriage laws these countries decided to legalize human-animal relations as well.




Again, I have to take issue with the idea that human governments as corrupt and evil as the ones today should have any say in Christian marriages, and even with the verses you posted don't seem to totally support your point. "Avoid even the appearance of evil ."
Does not necessarily  translate to "get permission from corrupt human laws and authorities." I don't think God needs Barack Obama's approval to bless a Christian marriage.

Why does God tell us to Obey the Leaders and the laws of our country then?

[k-pappy]

To make sure I understand...a lease signed together with the verbal claim of being married means a couple is married? 

Only if they file a declaration with the county clerk.

[k-pappy]

http://www.born-again-christian.info/questions/answers.132.htm

This a  good article that explains what I have been trying to about common law marriage.

The author does not understand Common Law Marriage and neither do you.  The lady Jesus was talking to was NOT in a common law marriage.  She was shacking up.  Common Law Marriage is not shacking up.  It is a legal marriage.  You clearly do not get it and no amount up explanation will allow you to understand...so, you win.  I give up.

[isaiahkiki]

I'm 16 shes 15 and no I'm not waiting another 6-7 years to have sex because were not getting legally married until after college. we can't just get married at 18 that won't happen its almost impossible for us and its not that simple to not have sex with her because now its like everytime she comes over we have sex I'm not stopping that for 6 years

[MeMyself]

I'm 16 shes 15 and no I'm not waiting another 6-7 years to have sex because were not getting legally married until after college. we can't just get married at 18 that won't happen its almost impossible for us and its not that simple to not have sex with her because now its like everytime she comes over we have sex I'm not stopping that for 6 years

I think that is very sad.  It shows no desire for God or His ways...just you and yours. 

Trust me, stopping it will save you both (and those you eventually DO marry) loads of heartache and regret.

[MeMyself]

To make sure I understand...a lease signed together with the verbal claim of being married means a couple is married? 

Only if they file a declaration with the county clerk.

Ok. That makes more sense to me.  I was envisioning the couple telling the land-lord they were married, signing the lease and POOF! Married. 

Not the way I'd go, but at least there is an official public record of them both agreeing.