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Quote from: lonewolfwinsome said, "You join the Catholic Church by a formal process.

You can leave the Catholic Church by a formal process. If you choose not to do that then as far as the Catholic Church is concerned, you are still a member and bound by its rules."

That is no longer true. There is no longer a formal process to leave the church. The Catholic church has decided that you can no longer decide to no longer be Catholic, and that once Catholic always Catholic in their eyes.

I renounced the Catholic church to God and I believe he accepted my renouncement.

Here is the related document about no longer being about to formally defect from the Catholic church.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/apost_letters/documents/hf_ben-xvi_apl_20091026_codex-iuris-canonici_en.html

Hi lonegreywolf,

Interesting, but not quite what you claim. It would appear to be specifically directed to Marriage (which admittedly is what is being doiscussed here)..

Actually, defecting from the church is still recognized.  Even if it's not done by formal process.

"Although the act of "formal defection" from the Catholic Church has thus been abolished, public or "notorious" (in the canonical sense)[13] defection from the Catholic faith or from the communion of the Church is of course possible, as is expressly recognized in the Code of Canon Law.[14] Even defection that is not known publicly is subject to the automatic spiritual penalty of excommunication laid down in canon 1364 of the Code of Canon Law."

It appears even the church recognizes that my husband has left.

winsome said, "Interesting, but not quite what you claim. It would appear to be specifically directed to Marriage (which admittedly is what is being doiscussed here).."

My mistake, I was told by a priest when I tried to defect that there is no way to defect anymore and pointed me to that document.

Either way, I no longer consider myself Catholic. If others want to be Catholic, that is there choice, but as for my wife and I, we no longer consider ourselves Catholic.

winsome said, "Interesting, but not quite what you claim. It would appear to be specifically directed to Marriage (which admittedly is what is being doiscussed here).."

My mistake, I was told by a priest when I tried to defect that there is no way to defect anymore and pointed me to that document.

Either way, I no longer consider myself Catholic. If others want to be Catholic, that is there choice, but as for my wife and I,we no longer consider ourselves Catholic.

Therein lies the rub...  because what winsome and Catholica are trying to say is that you do not have a choice.  You cannot undo being a Catholic, they are saying that the Catholic Church has the right to take away your first amendment right of Freedom of Religion.  It's quite funny, but that is what they are trying to say.

kensington said, "My husband did NOT join the church.  He was baptized by his mother and father, forced to go to go through the process of 1st Communion and Confirmation... and when he reached an age of choice, he left."

Again, sounds like me. I finally made the choice not only because of the marriage issue, but also because of the contraception issue. I will be getting a vasectomy in the near future as my wife and I will have our second child come February. With her multiple sclerosis continuing to progress and her disability ion relation to the illness progressing, we are making the choice based on her health which is at risk if she were to get pregnant again. This second pregnancy has been very hard on her, even though it can cause the MS to go into remission for the duration of the pregnancy, that hasn't happened with this pregnancy. After she gives birth, the likely hood of her having another relapse is extremely high.

The Catholic church believes that in cases of where medically a pregnancy is not a good idea, you must abstain. We take issue with that since sex is not only for procreation, nor does it say anywhere in the Bible to abstain from sex the rest of your life (unless not physically capable of having sex, which neither my wife or I are not). It says only for a time, and to come back together. The Catholic doctrine of abstaining for medical reasons even if it's for the rest of your life doesn't coincide with scripture.

kensington said, "Therein lies the rub...  because what winsome and Catholica are trying to say is that you do not have a choice.  You cannot undo being a Catholic, they are saying that the Catholic Church has the right to take away your first amendment right of Freedom of Religion.  It's quite funny, but that is what they are trying to say."

Which is rubbish. We all have a choice. You can choose a denomination or no denomination without God saying that your are now sinning because you aren't in the Catholic church. I can renounce my affiliation with the Catholic church if I so choose where I am no longer Catholic.

Any church that believes it has the power to say to someone they are once and always one particular denomination is overstepping their bounds and quite frankly on God's toes.

Well, Lonegreywolf20...   as you well know, many of the teachings of the CC do not coincide with scripture.  Not even close. 

I believe that you have to pray and trust God, make the choices that are best for you and your wife based on your situation.  Give it to God, not the church to make your choices.  If your burden is all you can carry, you are the one who knows. 

You know your limits.  Not some council sitting around in robes, molesting boys, and taking money from the masses.  The sins of the CC go very deep.  And the mistreatment of their members is of the least of their worries.  God will judge the church first, and I have no doubt, a bunch of Catholic Hierarchy will be standing there when he does. 

God Bless.

Quote from: lonegreywolf20 on Fri Oct 17, 2014 - 15:32:45
My mistake, I was told by a priest when I tried to defect that there is no way to defect anymore and pointed me to that document.

no surprise he directed you to incorrect support docs.  Most support scripture I get from Catholics has little or nothing to do with the topic.  Most often it's 1 verse taken out of context.

When I was growing up it was OCAC - no way out.  That's what I/we hear most often from Catholics today also.  You are Catholic whether you like it or not  -  you're Catholic by force...  guess they use that to justify their numbers.  Don't know who they think they're fooling tho - except Catholics.  They aren't fooling anyone who has been saved.

Quote from: kensington on Fri Oct 17, 2014 - 15:27:58
... defection from the Catholic faith or from the communion of the Church is of course possible, as is expressly recognized in the Code of Canon Law.[14] Even defection that is not known publicly is subject to the automatic spiritual penalty of excommunication laid down in canon 1364 of the Code of Canon Law."

Christ does  away with the OT Law and the RC makes their own to replace it? I guess they don't think God knew what He was doing.

Skeeter, I do believe that most of what the CC does is fashioned after the Old Testament.  God gave grace and released us from the Old Testament Law and they have put in back into place for their members.  It really does have shades of the OT... along with Idolatry.  If you ask me.  My husband left the religion a long time ago, but he can go down each practice and denounce it with the word of God.  He has taught me and our kids so much. 

kensington.

What does it matter to you what the Catholic Church thinks? You obviously have no intention of taking any notice of it.

The SDA consider I am bound for hell if I don't observe the Saturday Sabbath.  That's doesn't concern me. I will dispute it with them but I don't throw a hissy fit about it and start ranting about the 1st amendment.

If you aren't bothered then why bother?

And that' my final comment on the matter.

Winsome I was conversing with others who posted in this topic either directly or indirectly to my comments or comments made to me.  The only hissy fit I see here is yours.  I don't even think I spoke directly to you.  So why does it bother you?  Pot calling the kettle black perhaps? 

Why would someone become a catholic?  I would also add why would some become a Protestant? What we need hear is a change of vision. A paradigm shift in the way we see the church. No denoms and no hierarchical orders, but a  people . A people who love and live for Christ. Will this perspective ever come to fruit. Probably not until Jesus comes. There is hope though for a few, but it will take a radical move upon the one who sees the church as it is in Babylon. One must fearlessly walk away from it to walk with Christ alone. Almost as it was when Abraham was told to leave the idolatrous land he was in to journey out to find the great city who's builder and maker is God.

Woe there, Mike we cant do that I am attached to my down home church. What would my friends say. What my family think? What would my pastor think?.  Where would I find fellowship?

What we need to see is how Babylon effects the church Protestant and Catholic orthodox and you name it.
The day will come when Babylon will be judged. Rev 18 calls the lords people to come out or her. What does this call mean to the church today?    How is my church in Babylon. How am I in Babylon? One would have to give considerable thought to this since we do not know the day or the hour of his return?  Think on it. Do we believe or do we just pretend? I have often wondered.

Quote from: kensington on Fri Oct 17, 2014 - 15:38:32
winsome said, "Interesting, but not quite what you claim. It would appear to be specifically directed to Marriage (which admittedly is what is being doiscussed here).."

My mistake, I was told by a priest when I tried to defect that there is no way to defect anymore and pointed me to that document.

Either way, I no longer consider myself Catholic. If others want to be Catholic, that is there choice, but as for my wife and I,we no longer consider ourselves Catholic.

Therein lies the rub...  because what winsome and Catholica are trying to say is that you do not have a choice.  You cannot undo being a Catholic, they are saying that the Catholic Church has the right to take away your first amendment right of Freedom of Religion.  It's quite funny, but that is what they are trying to say.

Neither Winsome nor I have said any such thing, nor does the Catholic Church teach or practice that. 

Or maybe you can quote a post and call us out.  Otherwise you are just more evidence to all that being such a vehement opponent of the Church, that your vehemence is based completely on unreality and so are a poor witness to trying to stop people from entering the true faith.

The people in the video are better witnesses for the faith than your flimsy anti-witness against it.

When you speak of my husband, you said he was a Catholic, AFTER I have mentioned his testimony more than once stating that he got saved and LEFT the Catholic Church.  Both of you have implied he needed permission to marry me, you said our children are illegitimate (according to the faith that YOU believe). Did you not?  Did you not say that we are fornicating in our 28+ year marriage?  Are you not stating that according to the LAWS of the Catholic Church which says these things and you believe them completely? 

You have said he is still catholic?  How can that be, when he says he is not?  You are trying to bind him to the rules of the Catholic church which he does not believe nor does it have authority over him. 

If he cannot stop being a Catholic by their rule, according to you, and he has stopped being one, but yet you still call him catholic, what do you think you have said?  Add it up.

Who decides if he is a Catholic, him or the church rule?  And if you believe he has a choice, why do you call him a Catholic?

Quote from: kensington on Mon Oct 20, 2014 - 11:58:28

Quote from: Catholica on Mon Oct 20, 2014 - 09:18:34

Quote from: kensington on Fri Oct 17, 2014 - 15:38:32
winsome said, "Interesting, but not quite what you claim. It would appear to be specifically directed to Marriage (which admittedly is what is being doiscussed here).."

My mistake, I was told by a priest when I tried to defect that there is no way to defect anymore and pointed me to that document.

Either way, I no longer consider myself Catholic. If others want to be Catholic, that is there choice, but as for my wife and I,we no longer consider ourselves Catholic.

Therein lies the rub...  because what winsome and Catholica are trying to say is that you do not have a choice.  You cannot undo being a Catholic, they are saying that the Catholic Church has the right to take away your first amendment right of Freedom of Religion.  It's quite funny, but that is what they are trying to say.

Neither Winsome nor I have said any such thing, nor does the Catholic Church teach or practice that. 

Or maybe you can quote a post and call us out.  Otherwise you are just more evidence to all that being such a vehement opponent of the Church, that your vehemence is based completely on unreality and so are a poor witness to trying to stop people from entering the true faith.

The people in the video are better witnesses for the faith than your flimsy anti-witness against it.

When you speak of my husband, you said he was a Catholic, AFTER I have mentioned his testimony more than once stating that he got saved and LEFT the Catholic Church.  Both of you have implied he needed permission to marry me, you said our children are illegitimate (according to the faith that YOU believe). Did you not?  Did you not say that we are fornicating in our 28+ year marriage?  Are you not stating that according to the LAWS of the Catholic Church which says these things and you believe them completely? 

You have said he is still catholic?  How can that be, when he says he is not?  You are trying to bind him to the rules of the Catholic church which he does not believe nor does it have authority over him. 

If he cannot stop being a Catholic by their rule, according to you, and he has stopped being one, but yet you still call him catholic, what do you think you have said?  Add it up.

Who decides if he is a Catholic, him or the church rule?  And if you believe he has a choice, why do you call him a Catholic?

I fail to see how what you wrote shows that his freedom of religion is violated.  Is he not practicing the religion of his choice right now?  Does his freedom to practice whatever religion he wants trump our right to practice our religion?

It is simply true that a person cannot undo being a Catholic.  That doesn't mean they can't stop attending church, found their own church, renounce the Catholic faith, renounce God, whatever.  This has nothing to do with a person's "freedom of religion".  Any person is free to pursue their conscience and practice whatever form of religion they feel is best, according to the laws of our country.

I think I understand the attraction of Catholicism.  One can visit virtually any  Catholic church and the traditions and formalities will be essentially the same.   By contrast you might visit a Protestant church where they're running around and waving flags while you might go to another where you think you just walked into a funeral home.   

I would prefer to practice Messianic Judaism over Catholicism if there is going to be a continuation of a Law system.  I feel like I'd might as well stay with the one already in place;  but the Book of Hebrews shoots down both systems as wrong.   There is no more condemnation under the Law but there is Grace.   There is no more earthly priesthood.   That is a false fabrication.   Christ is right now our Great High Priest.   Jews who are waiting for Hebrews to be fulfilled in the future are misled and believing a false assumption.   Sometimes a church can be the most dangerous place to be as you can be led astray by all sorts of false teachings within the four walls.   Godly discernment will keep a believer out of a legalistic religious system and keep them focused on their personal relationship with Jesus Christ.   We can go directly to the throne through Jesus Christ and need no man or legalistic system to provide the means.   

Quote from: notreligus on Mon Oct 20, 2014 - 15:59:48
I think I understand the attraction of Catholicism.  One can visit virtually any  Catholic church and the traditions and formalities will be essentially the same.   By contrast you might visit a Protestant church where they're running around and waving flags while you might go to another where you think you just walked into a funeral home.   

I would prefer to practice Messianic Judaism over Catholicism if there is going to be a continuation of a Law system.  I feel like I'd might as well stay with the one already in place;  but the Book of Hebrews shoots down both systems as wrong.   There is no more condemnation under the Law but there is Grace.   There is no more earthly priesthood.   That is a false fabrication.   Christ is right now our Great High Priest.   Jews who are waiting for Hebrews to be fulfilled in the future are misled and believing a false assumption.   Sometimes a church can be the most dangerous place to be as you can be led astray by all sorts of false teachings within the four walls.   Godly discernment will keep a believer out of a legalistic religious system and keep them focused on their personal relationship with Jesus Christ.   We can go directly to the throne through Jesus Christ and need no man or legalistic system to provide the means.

I love my brother~amen David.

Why would someone become a catholic?  I would also add why would some become a Protestant? What we need hear is a change of vision. A paradigm shift in the way we see the church. No denoms and no hierarchical orders, but a  people . A people who love and live for Christ. Will this perspective ever come to fruit. Probably not until Jesus comes. There is hope though for a few, but it will take a radical move upon the one who sees the church as it is in Babylon. One must fearlessly walk away from it to walk with Christ alone. Almost as it was when Abraham was told to leave the idolatrous land he was in to journey out to find the great city who's builder and maker is God.

Woe there, Mike we cant do that I am attached to my down home church. What would my friends say. What my family think? What would my pastor think?.  Where would I find fellowship?

What we need to see is how Babylon effects the church Protestant and Catholic orthodox and you name it.
The day will come when Babylon will be judged. Rev 18 calls the lords people to come out or her. What does this call mean to the church today?    How is my church in Babylon. How am I in Babylon? One would have to give considerable thought to this since we do not know the day or the hour of his return?  Think on it. Do we believe or do we just pretend? I have often wondered.


Is there not one here that relates to what I have said.    I was in bondage to the traditional church and saw the double mindedness and false doctrines, the completive drives and membership counting. The more in the pew the better the paycheck. Anyone seen these things. Then you look to the RCC and all the legalism and vain show of religion, the papacy and their worldly political ties.  Come on is their here one who can see it.

It is not easy to walk away from it, but I know that you can and for many they must. Once given light we are accountable to it. You can never return to darkness again. Now I do outreach ministry under no banner except Jesus.

"Is there not one here that relates to what I have said.    I was in bondage to the traditional church and saw the double mindedness and false doctrines, the completive drives and membership counting. The more in the pew the better the paycheck. Anyone seen these things. Then you look to the RCC and all the legalism and vain show of religion, the papacy and their worldly political ties.  Come on is their here one who can see it.

It is not easy to walk away from it, but I know that you can and for many they must. Once given light we are accountable to it. You can never return to darkness again. Now I do outreach ministry under no banner except Jesus."

You sir, have just spoken my husband's testimony.  He saw the whole system for what it was. He saw the religiousness of the whole thing, the false doctrines and hypocrisy of the priesthood and even those who were members when he was.  The teens he knew in high school went to mass each week and sinned each other day. The adults in his life did the same thing. Pushing on him how they are the "true church" but no one was living a life that lined up with the word.

Catholica, thanks for clarifying that his freedom of religion is not trumped by the rules of Catholicism.  Except that you came again and said, you can't undo being a Catholic.  That is what we are trying to tell you... YOU CAN UNDO BEING A CATHOLIC if being one was not your choice.  No one can force anyone to be something they do not believe. To undo it, all he had to do was get saved, walk away, get baptized by his own choice into the family of God. He does not believe in infant baptism, and he renounced his own.  He did undo his being a Catholic.  God has no roll in Heaven of who is a Catholic and who is not, He has ONLY, the Book of Life,  and my husband's name is recorded in it.  At no time in eternity will he be referred to as Catholic... only as "thy good and faithful servant".  Peace.

Kensington , my dear , methinks you come here simply to indulge in a little floccinaucinihilipilification .     

What a pity ! 

Quote from: kensington on Mon Oct 20, 2014 - 19:27:52
Catholica, thanks for clarifying that his freedom of religion is not trumped by the rules of Catholicism.  Except that you came again and said, you can't undo being a Catholic.  That is what we are trying to tell you... YOU CAN UNDO BEING A CATHOLIC if being one was not your choice.

There is no conflict.  There are just two "perspectives" of what it means to be Catholic:

1. From a purely human perspective, in which one calls himself Catholic and practices the Catholic faith.
2. A spiritual perspective, in which one has been spiritually adopted into the body of Christ by God through baptism according to the order he set forth on Earth through the Catholic Church.

One can stop being a Catholic from the human perspective, which is what your husband has done.  One cannot stop being a Catholic from a spiritual perspective.  So while you speak of "being Catholic" from a human perspective, I speak of "being Catholic" from a spiritual perspective.  A person's "Catholicity" may change from a human point of view, but God's does not.  And the spiritual perspective is that which matters when it comes to salvation.  That is the belief of the Church, which Jesus founded, and that is the practice of the Catholic religion.

Thus while a person's "right to practice religion" is from a human perspective, a person's actual standing before God is only with regard to the standing of his soul, not what the person calls himself.  If a Christian is a very disobedient Christian who (for example) repudiates the true Christian faith, then it doesn't matter if that person calls himself Christian and even does seem to be doing good in the eyes of men, he remains a Christian but his soul is in danger before God.  For example, apostates who were baptized remain part of the body of Christ in the eyes of God, but their soul is dead and they might go to hell if they don't repent.

But I don't see why you care so much that the Catholic Church still would teach that your husband is Catholic and that I believe it.  We are just practicing our religion after all, and you are obviously a proponent of religious freedom.  You don't have to agree with me (though it is good to believe in the truth and agree with it and live it) but my right to proclaim what I believe isn't trumped by your husband's right to not believe it, nor is your husband's right to practice any religion he wants trumped by my right to practice mine, which includes the practice of proclaiming what the Catholic faith teaches. 

Quote from: kensington on Mon Oct 20, 2014 - 19:27:52
No one can force anyone to be something they do not believe.

That is the essence of free will which the Church proclaims and has proclaimed since the time of Christ.   But if they do not believe or practice what they must believe or do to be saved, then it would be unloving to tell them that they are ok before God.

I should have known that is where you would go with this...

To imply that my husband is not saved.   

Quote from: kensington on Tue Oct 21, 2014 - 14:36:22
I should have known that is where you would go with this...

To imply that my husband is not saved.

I would say that your husband was saved when he was baptized, but just like all of us, was and is fully capable of losing that salvation, and is in my belief in a very precarious situation.  But I still call him a Christian and a Catholic for that matter.

kensington said, "To imply that my husband is not saved."

No worries kensington, your husband would be in the same boat that I am. That according to the Catholic church, our salvation is at risk because we have renounced the church and no longer consider ourselves Catholic, or any of the other things that are required of Catholics, at least according to Catholic man made rules.

Just remember, the Bible states otherwise. We have believed, and made Jesus our Lord and our savior and are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption.

Quote from: lonegreywolf20 on Tue Oct 21, 2014 - 16:47:32

No worries kensington, your husband would be in the same boat that I am. That according to the Catholic church, our salvation is at risk because we have renounced the church and no longer consider ourselves Catholic, or any of the other things that are required of Catholics, at least according to Catholic man made rules.

Just remember, the Bible states otherwise. We have believed, and made Jesus our Lord and our savior and are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption.

Amen and Amen to that!

No worries kensington, your husband would be in the same boat that I am. That according to the Catholic church, our salvation is at risk because we have renounced the church and no longer consider ourselves Catholic, or any of the other things that are required of Catholics, at least according to Catholic man made rules.

Just remember, the Bible states otherwise. We have believed, and made Jesus our Lord and our savior and are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption.

Yes, I prayed about this all day, and the Lord reminds me that I know my husband is saved, filled with the Holy Spirit, a godly Bible believing man. No one can take that from him. 

If we remember to read what the LORD says about salvation, and not listen to the voices of men who teach different than the word does, we are on solid ground.  We must have no doubt about where our salvation lies and who purchased it for us.  Jesus, the Holy One of Israel paid the price for us to belong to Him and those whom the Father have given Him, He will not in any way lose.  Words can't describe how wonderful it is when the Lord speaks to you about something like this.  Every time it happens, I am in Awe.  I love God. He is the BEST. 

Quote from: kensington on Tue Oct 21, 2014 - 22:35:33
If we remember to read what the LORD says about salvation, and not listen to the voices of men who teach different than the word does, we are on solid ground.  We must have no doubt about where our salvation lies and who purchased it for us.  Jesus, the Holy One of Israel paid the price for us to belong to Him and those whom the Father have given Him, He will not in any way lose.  Words can't describe how wonderful it is when the Lord speaks to you about something like this.  Every time it happens, I am in Awe.  I love God. He is the BEST.

This is important to remember.  They will continue to make comments like this (and like Paulus posted).
I have to remind myself that I  once believed a lot like them.  And there were a number of years I didn't know what to believe (other than I believed in God and in Christ as my Savior- just the head knowledge).  Head knowledge isn't enough - He wants our hearts.  That  changed when He touched my heart and changed it.  That makes the difference.  It won't happen until there is nothing and no one between you and Him - and He knows when that is.  He isn't fooled by lip service.   Nothing they say causes me to doubt that.  It always reminds me how blessed I am,  to again thank Him and to be grateful I no longer believe what they do.

This is important to remember.  They will continue to make comments like this (and like Paulus posted).
I have to remind myself that I  once believed a lot like them.  And there were a number of years I didn't know what to believe (other than I believed in God and in Christ as my Savior- just the head knowledge).  Head knowledge isn't enough - He wants our hearts.  That  changed when He touched my heart and changed it.  That makes the difference.  It won't happen until there is nothing and no one between you and Him - and He knows when that is.  He isn't fooled by lip service.   Nothing they say causes me to doubt that.  It always reminds me how blessed I am,  to again thank Him and to be grateful I no longer believe what they do.

And Amen  Real love and faith in Christ is in the heart and crosses all barriers.  Denoms and hierarchies are not our salvation but Christ is always with me.  For me to live is Christ.   

Another testimony!

toseeJesus.com - Anna's Story

This girl is searching for truth which is Jesus, not external worship. When we are young like this girl we are subject to many draws that make us feel near to Him. Religious things such as forms and ritual can makes us feel we are finding Him there. Truly though we need Christ in the heart more than external forms of worship

When I think of the apostles like Paul, I do not see someone who is about external things but one who is deeply devoted in the spirit.  I see that when He said "For me to live is Christ and to die is gain." There is nothing else to live for but Christ. The world offers no life neither will forms and ritual. I cannot see Paul as one who was drawn to external religion.

Mike if you were filled with the spirit, you wouldn't get your undies in a bundle about what other people do and how they worship God.  You would be too concerned with loving God than to spit on your neighbor about how they worship God.  Which is essentially what you continually come to this Catholic forum to do.

I find great sources of joy and love for God in the Catholic religion, with all it's rituals.  Those rituals don't stop me from loving God, and enhance my personal relationship with God in fact.

You are one great big case of judging a book by it's cover (and hating that the cover is beautiful)

Mike if you were filled with the spirit, you wouldn't get your undies in a bundle about what other people do and how they worship God.  You would be too concerned with loving God than to spit on your neighbor about how they worship God.  Which is essentially what you continually come to this Catholic forum to do.

I find great sources of joy and love for God in the Catholic religion, with all it's rituals.  Those rituals don't stop me from loving God, and enhance my personal relationship with God in fact.

You are one great big case of judging a book by it's cover (and hating that the cover is beautiful)


Just stating as I see it. What is external is external and what is of the spirit is spirit   Jesus said it. Why do you despise me for saying the truth .

QuoteWhy would anyone become Catholic?

That's a good question, one that I have no answer to.