Christian Forums

Quote from: Alan on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 17:50:07

Quote from: Jd34 on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 17:42:29

Quote from: MeMyself on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 16:49:34

Quote from: winsome on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 15:53:21

Quote from: chosenone on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 15:49:17

Quote from: winsome on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 15:32:31

Quote from: chosenone on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 15:16:25
Firstly we are told how to pray and who we pray to. Simple.
Second, we are NEVER told to pray to Mary or any other human being. Simple.
Thirdly, do we obey God in His word, or do we make up our own rules? We obey God and do what Jesus told us to do. Simple. 

I honestly cant see the problem, its ALL very simple. Pray to God through Jesus and if that isnt enough for you then I feel sorry for you. To be able to talk to God Himself directly is surely the ultimate for us, so WHY OH WHY do people think that need to pray to dead humans who are themselves waiting for the return of Christ? They can no more hear or answer you or help you than Father Christmas can, and you are not only wasting your time, but you are opening the door to the occult by conversing with the dead.  RATHER YOU THAN ME. 

I'm sure we have been through this many times before.

Pauls asks people to pray for him.
"At the same time pray for us as well....." (Col 4:3)
"Beloved, pray for us." (1Thess 5:25)
"Finally, brothers and sister, pray for us....." (2 Thess 3:1)
Why does Paul not just pray to God himself?


Paul says he prays for others (Col 1:3, Eph 1:16 for example). Why does he not just leave it to them to pray to God themselves?

Ummm MASSIVE difference in praying with and for people who are actually alive, than praying to those who are dead and who cannot hear you and cant do a thing for you.

They are alive in heaven and they can hear us and they can pray for us.

Christ's directions on praying were to God alone.

But what is  wrong with saying an occasional hello to Mary. And what do we pray for anyway? Does prayer always have to be about us ? I pray God was pleased today.

Mary?? Just another sister who knows Christ better than any of us.

Sounds good, but by that logic I should be able to say hello to my deceased father, grandparents, etc...

Why not? People do it all the time when they visit the graveyard. I know, it just makes "us" feel better- right?

The truth the way that  I know it is that no one will hold my hand except for Christ. Mary is nothing to me except for another sister in Christ. Everyone of us will stand alone so if anyone counting on politics need to re evaluate. Just how the spirit speaks to me as all..

Quote from: Jd34 on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 17:42:29

Quote from: MeMyself on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 16:49:34

Quote from: winsome on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 15:53:21

Quote from: chosenone on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 15:49:17

Quote from: winsome on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 15:32:31

Quote from: chosenone on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 15:16:25
Firstly we are told how to pray and who we pray to. Simple.
Second, we are NEVER told to pray to Mary or any other human being. Simple.
Thirdly, do we obey God in His word, or do we make up our own rules? We obey God and do what Jesus told us to do. Simple. 

I honestly cant see the problem, its ALL very simple. Pray to God through Jesus and if that isnt enough for you then I feel sorry for you. To be able to talk to God Himself directly is surely the ultimate for us, so WHY OH WHY do people think that need to pray to dead humans who are themselves waiting for the return of Christ? They can no more hear or answer you or help you than Father Christmas can, and you are not only wasting your time, but you are opening the door to the occult by conversing with the dead.  RATHER YOU THAN ME. 

I'm sure we have been through this many times before.

Pauls asks people to pray for him.
"At the same time pray for us as well....." (Col 4:3)
"Beloved, pray for us." (1Thess 5:25)
"Finally, brothers and sister, pray for us....." (2 Thess 3:1)
Why does Paul not just pray to God himself?


Paul says he prays for others (Col 1:3, Eph 1:16 for example). Why does he not just leave it to them to pray to God themselves?

Ummm MASSIVE difference in praying with and for people who are actually alive, than praying to those who are dead and who cannot hear you and cant do a thing for you.

They are alive in heaven and they can hear us and they can pray for us.

Christ's directions on praying were to God alone.

But what is  wrong with saying an occasional hello to Mary.

Christ said we pray to the Father. 

QuoteAnd what do we pray for anyway?

For God's will, to pour our hearts out to Him, to talk to Him, to have Him minister to us.

QuoteDoes prayer always have to be about us ?

Prayer is about God, and we need it to, that is why He tells us to pray without ceasing.  We need Him, to have relationship with Him and we need pray for His will to be done.

QuoteI pray God was pleased today.

Awesome!

QuoteMary?? Just another sister who knows Christ better than any of us.

She is dead, she can't communicate with us, Christ tells us to pray to the Father. The Spirit will groan on our behalf when our hearts are too broken to pray, and our advocate on high with the Father is Jesus.

Quote from: MeMyself on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 18:17:06

Quote from: Jd34 on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 17:42:29

Quote from: MeMyself on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 16:49:34

Quote from: winsome on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 15:53:21

Quote from: chosenone on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 15:49:17

Quote from: winsome on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 15:32:31

Quote from: chosenone on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 15:16:25
Firstly we are told how to pray and who we pray to. Simple.
Second, we are NEVER told to pray to Mary or any other human being. Simple.
Thirdly, do we obey God in His word, or do we make up our own rules? We obey God and do what Jesus told us to do. Simple. 

I honestly cant see the problem, its ALL very simple. Pray to God through Jesus and if that isnt enough for you then I feel sorry for you. To be able to talk to God Himself directly is surely the ultimate for us, so WHY OH WHY do people think that need to pray to dead humans who are themselves waiting for the return of Christ? They can no more hear or answer you or help you than Father Christmas can, and you are not only wasting your time, but you are opening the door to the occult by conversing with the dead.  RATHER YOU THAN ME. 

I'm sure we have been through this many times before.

Pauls asks people to pray for him.
"At the same time pray for us as well....." (Col 4:3)
"Beloved, pray for us." (1Thess 5:25)
"Finally, brothers and sister, pray for us....." (2 Thess 3:1)
Why does Paul not just pray to God himself?


Paul says he prays for others (Col 1:3, Eph 1:16 for example). Why does he not just leave it to them to pray to God themselves?

Ummm MASSIVE difference in praying with and for people who are actually alive, than praying to those who are dead and who cannot hear you and cant do a thing for you.

They are alive in heaven and they can hear us and they can pray for us.

Christ's directions on praying were to God alone.

But what is  wrong with saying an occasional hello to Mary.

Christ said we pray to the Father. 

QuoteAnd what do we pray for anyway?

For God's will, to pour our hearts out to Him, to talk to Him, to have Him minister to us.

QuoteDoes prayer always have to be about us ?

Prayer is about God, and we need it to, that is why He tells us to pray without ceasing.  We need Him, to have relationship with Him and we need pray for His will to be done.

QuoteI pray God was pleased today.

Awesome!

QuoteMary?? Just another sister who knows Christ better than any of us.

She is dead, she can't communicate with us, Christ tells us to pray to the Father. The Spirit will groan on our behalf when our hearts are too broken to pray, and our advocate on high with the Father is Jesus.

X1000!

So without scripture proofs we are expected to believe that somehow God allows those in heaven to be able to hear the prayers of, say, 1 million people all at once from all over the globe and somehow manage to intercede for them all at once?
So our prayers are now, or should I say now directed at others other than God, and we now can have a multitude of intercessors for us as opposed to what the Word of God teaches in regards to that?
That negates Jesus pretty much then doesn't it! That is in effect an antichrist teaching.
I would add this too, that seeing as none is omniscient or omnipresent other than God, that those who present the prayers are no more privy to the contents of all, say thousands at once, than a mail man delivering mail is to the contents of all he delivers.

Quote from: Alan on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 17:50:07

Quote from: Jd34 on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 17:42:29

Quote from: MeMyself on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 16:49:34

Quote from: winsome on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 15:53:21

Quote from: chosenone on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 15:49:17

Quote from: winsome on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 15:32:31

Quote from: chosenone on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 15:16:25
Firstly we are told how to pray and who we pray to. Simple.
Second, we are NEVER told to pray to Mary or any other human being. Simple.
Thirdly, do we obey God in His word, or do we make up our own rules? We obey God and do what Jesus told us to do. Simple. 

I honestly cant see the problem, its ALL very simple. Pray to God through Jesus and if that isnt enough for you then I feel sorry for you. To be able to talk to God Himself directly is surely the ultimate for us, so WHY OH WHY do people think that need to pray to dead humans who are themselves waiting for the return of Christ? They can no more hear or answer you or help you than Father Christmas can, and you are not only wasting your time, but you are opening the door to the occult by conversing with the dead.  RATHER YOU THAN ME. 

I'm sure we have been through this many times before.

Pauls asks people to pray for him.
"At the same time pray for us as well....." (Col 4:3)
"Beloved, pray for us." (1Thess 5:25)
"Finally, brothers and sister, pray for us....." (2 Thess 3:1)
Why does Paul not just pray to God himself?


Paul says he prays for others (Col 1:3, Eph 1:16 for example). Why does he not just leave it to them to pray to God themselves?

Ummm MASSIVE difference in praying with and for people who are actually alive, than praying to those who are dead and who cannot hear you and cant do a thing for you.

They are alive in heaven and they can hear us and they can pray for us.

Christ's directions on praying were to God alone.

But what is  wrong with saying an occasional hello to Mary. And what do we pray for anyway? Does prayer always have to be about us ? I pray God was pleased today.

Mary?? Just another sister who knows Christ better than any of us.

Sounds good, but by that logic I should be able to say hello to my deceased father, grandparents, etc...

I have known people who pray to their family members who have died, for help and protection etc, and that is equally as troubling as those who pray to Mary or any of the so called 'saints' 

Quote from: winsome on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 15:26:10

Quote from: kensington on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 14:19:38
Do you have another scripture to back that up?  Because according to that verse, all we know is that the four living creatures and the twenty four elders were holding bowls, and it does not clarify that they heard the prayers nor that they are interceding at all.  They hold bowls, and they are fallen before the Lord.  The prayers have become incense that rises up to God while they are on their face.  Also, it's Revelation 8, which would indicate it hasn't happened yet.

Also, you mentioned the "great cloud of witnesses"... however that verse also does not indicate they are participants or that they hear our prayers.   Or that they intercede. 

Infact, if you think of how it is at the scene of an accident, when the statements are taken from witnesses, they are those who saw what happened, not those who participated are involved.  They are witness's of what happened to their lives and they cheering for us to make it.  Not prayer answering or praying.

What is clear is that the elders and an angel they are offering prayers of the saints to God. If they are offering them then they know about them.

There are two other occasions in scripture where prayers are brought before God.

Firstly the angel that appears to Cornelius. "'Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your alms have been remembered before God." (Acts 10:31)

Secondly the Angel Raphael says to Tobias "And so, when you and your daughter-in-law Sarah prayed, I brought a reminder of your prayer before the Holy One" and then "I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One." (Tobit 12: 12&15).

The point about the witnesses is that they are aware of what is happening on earth.

Those verses(only one of which is in the Bible) are talking of angels not humans who have died. Massive difference. No one prayed TO the angels anyway, but the angels placed their prayers to GOD before Him. 
Where does God tell us to pray to Mary or anyone else who has died?

Quote from: winsome on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 15:53:21

Quote from: chosenone on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 15:49:17

Quote from: winsome on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 15:32:31

Quote from: chosenone on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 15:16:25
Firstly we are told how to pray and who we pray to. Simple.
Second, we are NEVER told to pray to Mary or any other human being. Simple.
Thirdly, do we obey God in His word, or do we make up our own rules? We obey God and do what Jesus told us to do. Simple. 

I honestly cant see the problem, its ALL very simple. Pray to God through Jesus and if that isnt enough for you then I feel sorry for you. To be able to talk to God Himself directly is surely the ultimate for us, so WHY OH WHY do people think that need to pray to dead humans who are themselves waiting for the return of Christ? They can no more hear or answer you or help you than Father Christmas can, and you are not only wasting your time, but you are opening the door to the occult by conversing with the dead.  RATHER YOU THAN ME. 

I'm sure we have been through this many times before.

Pauls asks people to pray for him.
"At the same time pray for us as well....." (Col 4:3)
"Beloved, pray for us." (1Thess 5:25)
"Finally, brothers and sister, pray for us....." (2 Thess 3:1)
Why does Paul not just pray to God himself?


Paul says he prays for others (Col 1:3, Eph 1:16 for example). Why does he not just leave it to them to pray to God themselves?

Ummm MASSIVE difference in praying with and for people who are actually alive, than praying to those who are dead and who cannot hear you and cant do a thing for you.

They are alive in heaven and they can hear us and they can pray for us.

Where does God say that we should EVER pray to those who have died???In fact He warns again it.  It comes down to whether you do what your denomination says and does, or whether you do what God says. Its simple. I know which I choose. The idea of ever praying to any dead person is deeply troubling.   

Quote from: Jd34 on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 17:42:29

Quote from: MeMyself on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 16:49:34

Quote from: winsome on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 15:53:21

Quote from: chosenone on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 15:49:17

Quote from: winsome on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 15:32:31

Quote from: chosenone on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 15:16:25
Firstly we are told how to pray and who we pray to. Simple.
Second, we are NEVER told to pray to Mary or any other human being. Simple.
Thirdly, do we obey God in His word, or do we make up our own rules? We obey God and do what Jesus told us to do. Simple. 

I honestly cant see the problem, its ALL very simple. Pray to God through Jesus and if that isnt enough for you then I feel sorry for you. To be able to talk to God Himself directly is surely the ultimate for us, so WHY OH WHY do people think that need to pray to dead humans who are themselves waiting for the return of Christ? They can no more hear or answer you or help you than Father Christmas can, and you are not only wasting your time, but you are opening the door to the occult by conversing with the dead.  RATHER YOU THAN ME. 

I'm sure we have been through this many times before.

Pauls asks people to pray for him.
"At the same time pray for us as well....." (Col 4:3)
"Beloved, pray for us." (1Thess 5:25)
"Finally, brothers and sister, pray for us....." (2 Thess 3:1)
Why does Paul not just pray to God himself?


Paul says he prays for others (Col 1:3, Eph 1:16 for example). Why does he not just leave it to them to pray to God themselves?

Ummm MASSIVE difference in praying with and for people who are actually alive, than praying to those who are dead and who cannot hear you and cant do a thing for you.

They are alive in heaven and they can hear us and they can pray for us.

Christ's directions on praying were to God alone.

But what is  wrong with saying an occasional hello to Mary. And what do we pray for anyway? Does prayer always have to be about us ? I pray God was pleased today.

Mary?? Just another sister who knows Christ better than any of us.

We are told NOT to communicate with those who have died thats why. NO WHERE does God say that we can or should do that. You are not only wasting you time, but disobeying God and opening the door to evil spirits as well. 

Quote from: Jd34 on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 18:12:31

Quote from: Alan on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 17:50:07

Quote from: Jd34 on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 17:42:29

Quote from: MeMyself on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 16:49:34

Quote from: winsome on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 15:53:21

Quote from: chosenone on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 15:49:17

Quote from: winsome on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 15:32:31

Quote from: chosenone on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 15:16:25
Firstly we are told how to pray and who we pray to. Simple.
Second, we are NEVER told to pray to Mary or any other human being. Simple.
Thirdly, do we obey God in His word, or do we make up our own rules? We obey God and do what Jesus told us to do. Simple. 

I honestly cant see the problem, its ALL very simple. Pray to God through Jesus and if that isnt enough for you then I feel sorry for you. To be able to talk to God Himself directly is surely the ultimate for us, so WHY OH WHY do people think that need to pray to dead humans who are themselves waiting for the return of Christ? They can no more hear or answer you or help you than Father Christmas can, and you are not only wasting your time, but you are opening the door to the occult by conversing with the dead.  RATHER YOU THAN ME. 

I'm sure we have been through this many times before.

Pauls asks people to pray for him.
"At the same time pray for us as well....." (Col 4:3)
"Beloved, pray for us." (1Thess 5:25)
"Finally, brothers and sister, pray for us....." (2 Thess 3:1)
Why does Paul not just pray to God himself?


Paul says he prays for others (Col 1:3, Eph 1:16 for example). Why does he not just leave it to them to pray to God themselves?

Ummm MASSIVE difference in praying with and for people who are actually alive, than praying to those who are dead and who cannot hear you and cant do a thing for you.

They are alive in heaven and they can hear us and they can pray for us.

Christ's directions on praying were to God alone.

But what is  wrong with saying an occasional hello to Mary. And what do we pray for anyway? Does prayer always have to be about us ? I pray God was pleased today.

Mary?? Just another sister who knows Christ better than any of us.

Sounds good, but by that logic I should be able to say hello to my deceased father, grandparents, etc...

Why not? People do it all the time when they visit the graveyard. I know, it just makes "us" feel better- right?

The truth the way that  I know it is that no one will hold my hand except for Christ. Mary is nothing to me except for another sister in Christ. Everyone of us will stand alone so if anyone counting on politics need to re evaluate. Just how the spirit speaks to me as all..

Yes she is another deceased sister in Christ, and has no more power than any other sister in Christ who has died.

matthew 12 v 48
8 He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

 What is clear is that the elders and an angel they are offering prayers of the saints to God. If they are offering them then they know about them.

There are two other occasions in scripture where prayers are brought before God.

Firstly the angel that appears to Cornelius. "'Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your alms have been remembered before God." (Acts 10:31)

Secondly the Angel Raphael says to Tobias "And so, when you and your daughter-in-law Sarah prayed, I brought a reminder of your prayer before the Holy One" and then "I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One." (Tobit 12: 12&15).

The point about the witnesses is that they are aware of what is happening on earth.

I'm sorry... but this argument does not work, there are only two Angels in the Bible, Michael and Gabriel.  And Angels knowing what is going on is not the same thing as your claim that departed saints see, and hear us or participate by interceding.  You have no biblical proof of that.  Of course Angels are aware, they are ministers of God's will to us. They can even come to earth and participate with us.

Hebrews 13:2 "Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by this some have entertained angels without knowing it." 

Again, Angels being aware of our prayers or offering them to God makes sense. They are spiritual beings who do now and always did dwell in spiritual places.  Humans born here, go on to be in the presence of the Lord, but they are not in our presence nor is there any verse to indicate they hear us, or know what our prayers are. There is no indication in that verse in Revelation that they know what those prayers in the bowls are.  And that is just the 24 Elders, certainly no mention of any other past those being even aware of our prayers.

Your argument does not hold up to scripture. Not at all.  It's one of those nice ideas that has no biblical foundation. 

In fact too, the opposite is true in scripture.  Rich man, poor man dies...

Luke 16:19-31King James Version (KJV)

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Do you see that?  The answer to the human man was "No" you cannot go back, you cannot warn them, you cannot communicate to them.  No.  It would make sense though if departed saints could hear our prayers and exact any change or influence where they go or who delivers them or anything at all... it would be here. But, what is here is "No", permission to interact with those left here denied.

Angels have always been able to go there, come here, minister to us and minister to God. 

Quote from: winsome on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 15:26:10
What is clear is that the elders and an angel they are offering prayers of the saints to God. If they are offering them then they know about them.

There are two other occasions in scripture where prayers are brought before God.

Firstly the angel that appears to Cornelius. "'Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your alms have been remembered before God." (Acts 10:31)

Secondly the Angel Raphael says to Tobias "And so, when you and your daughter-in-law Sarah prayed, I brought a reminder of your prayer before the Holy One" and then "I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One." (Tobit 12: 12&15).

The point about the witnesses is that they are aware of what is happening on earth.

Winsome,

There is a whole lot wrong with this argumentation. I am well aware that it is the standard response by the Catholic Church, but the fact is also that she admits not to know "exactly" how to interpret Revelation 4,5 & 8.

Firstly, nobody knows who the 24 elders are. You could argue that in heaven only 24 elders are given the capacity to offer up people's prayers.
If that indeed is the case, than logically you must make a point of showing that Mary is one of the 24 elders. Fact is, whatever names you can come up with, it will be nothing more but speculation.
Now the RCC has some 10,000 saints. To all of them the RCC allows prayers. But then which saint does and which saint does not fall into the group of elders?

Secondly, prayers do not have to be spoken out to be heard. The Bible teaches that even unspoken prayers are acknowledged.
If indeed Mary receives prayers, then logically she must also be able to hear unspoken prayers, so she must know the thoughts of every human being on earth.
That would make her omnipresent and omniscient.
Even the RCC doesn't dare to acknowledge such a statement.

Thirdly, you claim that if the elders offer the prayers up to God, they must also know what the prayers are.
This is speculation again. On this board for example we are asked many times by people to pray for them. Not always we know exactly what they want us to pray for.
This may be the same with the 24 elders...they not necessarily have to know the content of the prayers in order to offer them up to God.
What you completely ignore is that the elders in Revelation 5 offer up vials of odours. These odours represent the prayers of saints. They are not the actual prayers...they are just a representation.
The vials contain odour, and your argument would only make sense if prayers are classified by smell.

Fourthly, the 2 angel appearances you describe are responses from God to prayers.
Nowhere in these passages it is indicated who received the prayers. The 2 Bible scriptures you bring forward are instances of God using angels to respond to people's prayers.

Fifthly, you are trying to proof somehow that saints hear prayers.
The problem is that this discussion is not about that. It is about Mary (or saints) being able to hear prayers and influence God in His response to those prayers.
The RCC goes as far as "God cannot refuse Mary anything". There is absolutely no Biblical proof whatsoever that this is the case, not even in the by you referenced parts of Revelation.

In order to believe what the RCC teaches on this subject, one needs to have a whole lot of imagination and draw conclusions where there are absolutely none to be drawn.

So here is the challenge to you, and the RCC:
a) Prove that all saints can hear prayers and not only the 24 elders
b) Give us the names of the 24 elders
c) Prove that Mary is one of the 24 elders
d) Prove that Mary and other saints are omnipresent and omniscient in order to hear all unspoken prayers

Shouldn't be that difficult. After all for the last 2,000 years the RCC has been declaring Mary a valid personality to send prayers to, so I guess after 2,000 years of in-depth Bible study some solid answers on the above should exist.

Quote from: MeMyself on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 16:49:34

Quote from: winsome on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 15:53:21

Quote from: chosenone on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 15:49:17

Quote from: winsome on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 15:32:31

Quote from: chosenone on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 15:16:25
Firstly we are told how to pray and who we pray to. Simple.
Second, we are NEVER told to pray to Mary or any other human being. Simple.
Thirdly, do we obey God in His word, or do we make up our own rules? We obey God and do what Jesus told us to do. Simple. 

I honestly cant see the problem, its ALL very simple. Pray to God through Jesus and if that isnt enough for you then I feel sorry for you. To be able to talk to God Himself directly is surely the ultimate for us, so WHY OH WHY do people think that need to pray to dead humans who are themselves waiting for the return of Christ? They can no more hear or answer you or help you than Father Christmas can, and you are not only wasting your time, but you are opening the door to the occult by conversing with the dead.  RATHER YOU THAN ME. 

I'm sure we have been through this many times before.

Pauls asks people to pray for him.
"At the same time pray for us as well....." (Col 4:3)
"Beloved, pray for us." (1Thess 5:25)
"Finally, brothers and sister, pray for us....." (2 Thess 3:1)
Why does Paul not just pray to God himself?


Paul says he prays for others (Col 1:3, Eph 1:16 for example). Why does he not just leave it to them to pray to God themselves?

Ummm MASSIVE difference in praying with and for people who are actually alive, than praying to those who are dead and who cannot hear you and cant do a thing for you.

They are alive in heaven and they can hear us and they can pray for us.

Christ's directions on praying were to God alone.

It depends on what you mean by pray.

Quote from: MeMyself on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 18:17:06
She is dead, she can't communicate with us, Christ tells us to pray to the Father. The Spirit will groan on our behalf when our hearts are too broken to pray, and our advocate on high with the Father is Jesus.

Mary is alive in heaven.

She can pray for us.

Quote from: chosenone on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 23:15:13

Quote from: winsome on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 15:53:21

Quote from: chosenone on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 15:49:17

Quote from: winsome on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 15:32:31

Quote from: chosenone on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 15:16:25
Firstly we are told how to pray and who we pray to. Simple.
Second, we are NEVER told to pray to Mary or any other human being. Simple.
Thirdly, do we obey God in His word, or do we make up our own rules? We obey God and do what Jesus told us to do. Simple. 

I honestly cant see the problem, its ALL very simple. Pray to God through Jesus and if that isnt enough for you then I feel sorry for you. To be able to talk to God Himself directly is surely the ultimate for us, so WHY OH WHY do people think that need to pray to dead humans who are themselves waiting for the return of Christ? They can no more hear or answer you or help you than Father Christmas can, and you are not only wasting your time, but you are opening the door to the occult by conversing with the dead.  RATHER YOU THAN ME. 

I'm sure we have been through this many times before.

Pauls asks people to pray for him.
"At the same time pray for us as well....." (Col 4:3)
"Beloved, pray for us." (1Thess 5:25)
"Finally, brothers and sister, pray for us....." (2 Thess 3:1)
Why does Paul not just pray to God himself?


Paul says he prays for others (Col 1:3, Eph 1:16 for example). Why does he not just leave it to them to pray to God themselves?

Ummm MASSIVE difference in praying with and for people who are actually alive, than praying to those who are dead and who cannot hear you and cant do a thing for you.

They are alive in heaven and they can hear us and they can pray for us.

Where does God say that we should EVER pray to those who have died???In fact He warns again it.  It comes down to whether you do what your denomination says and does, or whether you do what God says. Its simple. I know which I choose. The idea of ever praying to any dead person is deeply troubling.

God does not say we should not pray to those who have died and are in heaven. He does not warn against it.

Quote from: kensington on Sun Dec 14, 2014 - 01:29:49
What is clear is that the elders and an angel they are offering prayers of the saints to God. If they are offering them then they know about them.

There are two other occasions in scripture where prayers are brought before God.

Firstly the angel that appears to Cornelius. "'Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your alms have been remembered before God." (Acts 10:31)

Secondly the Angel Raphael says to Tobias "And so, when you and your daughter-in-law Sarah prayed, I brought a reminder of your prayer before the Holy One" and then "I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One." (Tobit 12: 12&15).

The point about the witnesses is that they are aware of what is happening on earth.

I'm sorry... but this argument does not work, there are only two Angels in the Bible, Michael and Gabriel.  And Angels knowing what is going on is not the same thing as your claim that departed saints see, and hear us or participate by interceding.  You have no biblical proof of that.  Of course Angels are aware, they are ministers of God's will to us. They can even come to earth and participate with us.

This argument absolutely works.

There are three angels in the full Bible.

Quote from: kensington on Sun Dec 14, 2014 - 01:29:49
Hebrews 13:2 "Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by this some have entertained angels without knowing it."

Again, Angels being aware of our prayers or offering them to God makes sense. They are spiritual beings who do now and always did dwell in spiritual places.  Humans born here, go on to be in the presence of the Lord, but they are not in our presence nor is there any verse to indicate they hear us, or know what our prayers are. There is no indication in that verse in Revelation that they know what those prayers in the bowls are.  And that is just the 24 Elders, certainly no mention of any other past those being even aware of our prayers.

Those who have died and are in heaven offering out prayers and interceeding for us makes sense as well.

Quote from: kensington on Sun Dec 14, 2014 - 01:29:49
Your argument does not hold up to scripture. Not at all.  It's one of those nice ideas that has no biblical foundation. 

Yes it has biblical foundation as I have shown.

Quote from: kensington on Sun Dec 14, 2014 - 01:29:49
In fact too, the opposite is true in scripture.  Rich man, poor man dies...

Luke 16:19-31King James Version (KJV)

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Do you see that?  The answer to the human man was "No" you cannot go back, you cannot warn them, you cannot communicate to them.  No.  It would make sense though if departed saints could hear our prayers and exact any change or influence where they go or who delivers them or anything at all... it would be here. But, what is here is "No", permission to interact with those left here denied.

Angels have always been able to go there, come here, minister to us and minister to God.

A straw man argument. This is about asking those who have died "in christ" and are in heaven to interceded for us. It's not about them coming back and warning us.

Quote from: AVZ on Sun Dec 14, 2014 - 05:48:06

Quote from: winsome on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 15:26:10
What is clear is that the elders and an angel they are offering prayers of the saints to God. If they are offering them then they know about them.

There are two other occasions in scripture where prayers are brought before God.

Firstly the angel that appears to Cornelius. "'Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your alms have been remembered before God." (Acts 10:31)

Secondly the Angel Raphael says to Tobias "And so, when you and your daughter-in-law Sarah prayed, I brought a reminder of your prayer before the Holy One" and then "I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One." (Tobit 12: 12&15).

The point about the witnesses is that they are aware of what is happening on earth.

Winsome,

There is a whole lot wrong with this argumentation. I am well aware that it is the standard response by the Catholic Church, but the fact is also that she admits not to know "exactly" how to interpret Revelation 4,5 & 8.

Firstly, nobody knows who the 24 elders are. You could argue that in heaven only 24 elders are given the capacity to offer up people's prayers.
If that indeed is the case, than logically you must make a point of showing that Mary is one of the 24 elders. Fact is, whatever names you can come up with, it will be nothing more but speculation.
Now the RCC has some 10,000 saints. To all of them the RCC allows prayers. But then which saint does and which saint does not fall into the group of elders?

Secondly, prayers do not have to be spoken out to be heard. The Bible teaches that even unspoken prayers are acknowledged.
If indeed Mary receives prayers, then logically she must also be able to hear unspoken prayers, so she must know the thoughts of every human being on earth.
That would make her omnipresent and omniscient.
Even the RCC doesn't dare to acknowledge such a statement.

Thirdly, you claim that if the elders offer the prayers up to God, they must also know what the prayers are.
This is speculation again. On this board for example we are asked many times by people to pray for them. Not always we know exactly what they want us to pray for.
This may be the same with the 24 elders...they not necessarily have to know the content of the prayers in order to offer them up to God.
What you completely ignore is that the elders in Revelation 5 offer up vials of odours. These odours represent the prayers of saints. They are not the actual prayers...they are just a representation.
The vials contain odour, and your argument would only make sense if prayers are classified by smell.

Fourthly, the 2 angel appearances you describe are responses from God to prayers.
Nowhere in these passages it is indicated who received the prayers. The 2 Bible scriptures you bring forward are instances of God using angels to respond to people's prayers.

Fifthly, you are trying to proof somehow that saints hear prayers.
The problem is that this discussion is not about that. It is about Mary (or saints) being able to hear prayers and influence God in His response to those prayers.
The RCC goes as far as "God cannot refuse Mary anything". There is absolutely no Biblical proof whatsoever that this is the case, not even in the by you referenced parts of Revelation.

In order to believe what the RCC teaches on this subject, one needs to have a whole lot of imagination and draw conclusions where there are absolutely none to be drawn.

So here is the challenge to you, and the RCC:
a) Prove that all saints can hear prayers and not only the 24 elders
b) Give us the names of the 24 elders
c) Prove that Mary is one of the 24 elders
d) Prove that Mary and other saints are omnipresent and omniscient in order to hear all unspoken prayers

Shouldn't be that difficult. After all for the last 2,000 years the RCC has been declaring Mary a valid personality to send prayers to, so I guess after 2,000 years of in-depth Bible study some solid answers on the above should exist.

AVZ,

The Bible is a manual of systematic theology. It lays down principles that we have to apply to different situations.

I don't need to know the names of the 24 elders, though most people think they represent the 12 patriarchs of the OT and the 12 apostles of the NT

The quotations I have given show that there are people and angels presenting our prayers to God.

The Bible also tells us that when we are "in Christ", attached to the vine, we can bear much fruit. Those in heaven are more perfectly "in Christ" than we can ever be on earth. Therefore they can bear more fruit in heaven by their intercession than we can on earth.

What do the scriptures say Jesus is doing in heaven?
"... he is for ever to intercede for all who come to God through him." (Heb 7:25).

Now, we, on earth, are to be imitating him, what he did while on earth.
"Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ." (1Cor 11;1). In other words we are to imitate Christ. We intercede for others just as Paul instructs.

Why would we stop imitating Jesus just because we go to heaven?
Does our service to our Lord end when we go to heaven?

James says "The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective" (Jas 5:16).
Are not those in heaven righteous & therefore their prayers powerful and effective?

Paul promises to pray for others. Do you think he stops praying for others when he died and went to heaven, in the very presence of God?

AVZ, chosenone, Kensington, MeMyself and others,

I'm not getting into interminable wrangles over interpretation of scripture. I have given you many scripture based arguments. Only Kensington has provided any scriptures to back up her points, though I disagree with their relevance.

If you disagree then you disagree. It's your loss.

Quote from: winsome on Sun Dec 14, 2014 - 07:36:03
AVZ, chosenone, Kensington, MeMyself and others,

I'm not getting into interminable wrangles over interpretation of scripture. I have given you many scripture based arguments. Only Kensington has provided any scriptures to back up her points, though I disagree with their relevance.

If you disagree then you disagree. It's your loss.

Its not a question of interpretation of scripture, its a question of scripture forbidding what you do, warning against it, of it being dangerous, of opening yourself up to the demonic, a complete waste of your time, and of there being NO scripture that EVER tell us to pray to anyone but God.
There is NO loss, only gain, for those who heed Gods warnings about trying to communicate with the dead, or of the fact that we can go STRAIGHT to God with our prayers. How can it be a loss that Jesus' death has made a way for us to come to Him directly??

If you want more scriptures here are some.
http://www.gotquestions.org/prayer-saints-Mary.html

Quote from: winsome on Sun Dec 14, 2014 - 05:58:06

Quote from: MeMyself on Sat Dec 13, 2014 - 18:17:06
She is dead, she can't communicate with us, Christ tells us to pray to the Father. The Spirit will groan on our behalf when our hearts are too broken to pray, and our advocate on high with the Father is Jesus.

Mary is alive in heaven.

She can pray for us.

Nowhere do we have scriptural backing or hope of this.

What we have hope of is the Holy Spirit groaning on our behalf,(Romans 8:26) and Jesus our advocate on High with the Father,( 1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 7:25 and 1 John 2:1) as well as the template of prayer Christ gave us in the Lord's Prayer being to Our Father (God--found here Matthew 6:9-13, and Luke 11:1-4). None of those found in scripture include Mary.  The bible shows we are to ask others to pray for and with us, but nowhere is it spoken of to ask deceased Christians to pray.

Quote from: winsome on Sun Dec 14, 2014 - 07:31:23
I don't need to know the names of the 24 elders, though most people think they represent the 12 patriarchs of the OT and the 12 apostles of the NT

Lets say that is correct. Now you have 24 potential elders.
If you add Mary, you then have 25.
So how does that work out?

Quote from: winsome on Sun Dec 14, 2014 - 07:31:23
Paul promises to pray for others. Do you think he stops praying for others when he died and went to heaven, in the very presence of God?

That still only constitutes "praying for" others.
What you are promoting is "praying to" others. And for that you do not have a single shred of Biblical evidence.

Quote from: Helenkeller on Tue Dec 09, 2014 - 20:55:10
Christians should have a devotion to Mary because, as the mother of our savior, she deserves our love and respect.  Christ made her our mother when He died on the cross, and in life she had the greatest influence with Him.  It is rational to think that, even after death, she would still have an enormous influence on Him, which is why it is reasonable to send our petitions to her. Thoughts?

My thoughts are these:  Why can not men use the scriptures and then form their understanding on such thoughts.  Mary was blessed indeed above women in that she as a sinner, was chosen of God to be the mother of his only begotten Son.  Other than that, the scriptures does not exalt her anymore than other godly women!  As far as we know, he never appeared to his mother after his resurrection, as a special honor to her.  He did first appeared to Mary Magdalene out of whom he cast seven devils!

It would be blasphemy to pray to her, or through her to the Father.  Mary was a godly person due to the fact that God made her so, based upon the work of redemption by God's Son. God used Mary's womb, to give birth to his Son, so that sinner could be made sons of God, including his mother. 

The person that I admired most in the NT, or at least one of them, would be Simon, a Cyrenian~who was chosen of God to help bear Jesus' cross, WHAT A BLESSED PRIVILEGE INDEED!  I would that I could have helped my blessed Saviour carry his cross~and also understood WHY I was doing this!   

Quote from: winsome on Fri Dec 12, 2014 - 08:48:49
Getting back to the topic again - which is devotion to Mary and not whether she had children or not:

Saint Louis DeMontfort has this to say about Mary and why we should have a devotion to her: ...

CORRECTION: The topic is NOT devotion to Mary, but rather "Should Christians have a devotion to Mary?"

The fact that other children were born to Mary by and through her having intercourse with her husband Joseph is not an ancillary concept to the thread's topic, but what is wholly peripheral to the topic is Mary in and of herself. Under the O.T. law, is it not a sin for woman to have two husbands?  Is it not also a sin for a woman to be an adulterer? Please, please, please grow up spiritually and listen to the Holy Spirit on this matter. Scripture is clear, "deep calls unto deep;" so knowing, be deeper in the things of Jehovah and His calling. Purpose to become a spiritual Berean as well as an academic Berean with regards to the Word and manifest Will of God concerning this thread's topic. Selah.

Simply put, under the O.T. Law of God, only a virgin could conceive without possibly betraying her current or future husband. Search this out according to Biblical Law and it's the only option Truth really had to become flesh. For the prophet said when being moved by Jehovah's Spirit, "behold, a virgin shall conceive...," and this conception was LEGAL under the law of the Lord. (Or, if you think you can, please try to find out where it's Biblical illegal.)

I first made the point that the term "virgin Mary" was not used and rightfully so because Mary had sex with her husband and became pregnant by Joseph multiple times just as other wives in the day. As I said, this is not ancillary to the thread's topic, but completely germane to it as why should any more devotion be given to Mary than to any other woman than was married and had children? I personally respect mothers, and what they go through, and I give double honor to those that deserve it, but any virgin of the same linage as Mary who eq

Quote from: winsome on Fri Dec 12, 2014 - 08:48:49
Getting back to the topic again - which is devotion to Mary and not whether she had children or not: ...

CORRECTION: The topic is NOT devotion to Mary, but rather "Should Christians have a devotion to Mary?"

The fact that other children were born to Mary by and through her having intercourse with her husband Joseph is not an ancillary concept to the thread's topic, but what is wholly peripheral to the topic is Mary in and of herself. Under the O.T. law, is it not a sin for woman to have two husbands?  Is it not also a sin for a woman to be an adulterer? Please, please, please grow up spiritually and listen to the Holy Spirit on this matter. Scripture is clear, "deep calls unto deep;" so knowing, be deeper in the things of Jehovah and His calling. Purpose to become a spiritual Berean as well as an academic Berean with regards to the Word and manifest Will of God concerning this thread's topic. Selah.

Simply put, under the O.T. Law of God, only a virgin could conceive without possibly betraying her current or future husband. Search this out according to Biblical Law and it's the only option Truth really had to become flesh. For the prophet said when being moved by Jehovah's Spirit, "behold, a virgin shall conceive...," and this conception was the only LEGAL way, under the law of the Lord, that Mary could have Jesus and then get married and have Joseph's children. (Or, if you think you can, please try to find out where it's Biblically illegal.)

I first made the point that the term "virgin Mary" was not used and rightfully so because Mary had sex with her husband and became pregnant by Joseph multiple times just as other wives in the day. As I said, this is not merely peripheral to the thread's topic, but completely germane to it as why should any more devotion be given to Mary than to any other woman that was married and had children? I personally respect mothers, and what they go through being mothers, and I will give double honor to those mothers that deserve it, but we cannot put Mary above any other virgin of the same linage that had as much faith as Mary for they too could have LEGALLY given birth to the Messiah. 

Jehovah wanted to dwell with us and hence became flesh. His decision to come into this world through and by way of a virgin was the only Biblical way He could do it without causing Mary to be legally condemned under the Law. So ALL the glory and devotion rightfully goes to Jehovah and no one else. I know this is not a seeker-sensitive doctrine, and I welcome anyone to not believe me and search this out for yourself, then come back and correct me if I am wrong, however, do not use quotes, emotions, and or traditions of man to show me wrong, but rather use the Word of the Living God.

Quote from: winsome on Fri Dec 12, 2014 - 08:48:49... Saint Louis DeMontfort has this to say about Mary and why we should have a devotion to her: ...

Peace Warrior has this to say about pizza and it's why we should have devotion to it:

WAIT! Peace Warrior is only a man and can only give his subjective opinions about pizza, so until PW can back up his opinions about pizza and do so using the Word of God, then there is every possibility that PW is objectively wrong about pizza, which means what he has to say is relative at best, and immaterial at worst.

Christians should have a devotion to Christ alone. Not to Mary, not to Peter or Paul or anyone else born on earth.  Our devotion belongs to Jesus Christ the Savior.  No one else ransomed us, no one else could ransom us. He alone is our kinsmen redeemer and He alone is worthy of our devotion in prayer, worship and praise.  All Glory and Honor and Praise belong to Him. 

He is above all. There is none like Him.  No other name under Heaven is equal with His.  He is the beginning and the end, the Alpha and the Omega.  The King of Kings, Lord of All.  Almighty God, the Bright and Morning Star. The one who was and is and is to come.  Blessed Redeemer.  He is Holy.  He is the Holy one of Israel.

All true Marian devotions will always lead to chrsit as savior.  Look at the holy lives of the saints. 
I personally was healed in an instant from an addiction by saying the rosary for the first time. 

I love what Jesus loves and he loves his mother

Quote from: Adamski on Wed Mar 25, 2015 - 18:56:01
All true Marian devotions will always lead to chrsit as savior.  Look at the holy lives of the saints. 
I personally was healed in an instant from an addiction by saying the rosary for the first time. 

I love what Jesus loves and he loves his mother

Matthew 12:46-50

Jesus' Mother and Brothers
46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."

48 He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

Simple answer-- NO!

All true Marian devotions will always lead to chrsit as savior.  Look at the holy lives of the saints. 
I personally was healed in an instant from an addiction by saying the rosary for the first time. 

I love what Jesus loves and he loves his mother

He loved His mother, but His devotion went to His Father.  He prayed to the Father.  He pointed everyone to the Father.  He told others He was about the Fathers' business, including His mother.   Everything He did was to fulfill the will of the Father, to lead people to know the Father though Him.  His Father in Him is why He came, why He forgave and why He healed.

Quote from: chosenone on Wed Mar 25, 2015 - 22:07:02

Quote from: Adamski on Wed Mar 25, 2015 - 18:56:01
All true Marian devotions will always lead to chrsit as savior.  Look at the holy lives of the saints. 
I personally was healed in an instant from an addiction by saying the rosary for the first time. 

I love what Jesus loves and he loves his mother

Matthew 12:46-50

Jesus' Mother and Brothers
46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."

48 He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

It says his mother and brothers not the children of Mary these children where from Joseph's 1st marriage Joseph's was older and his first wife died
Or
They where Jesus's cousins since there was no word for cousin in Aramaic you can see that lot and Abraham are called brothers but are not brothers

I do look to the saints they are in our assembly and I are one.

Quote from: Adamski on Wed Apr 01, 2015 - 16:55:02

Quote from: chosenone on Wed Mar 25, 2015 - 22:07:02

Quote from: Adamski on Wed Mar 25, 2015 - 18:56:01
All true Marian devotions will always lead to chrsit as savior.  Look at the holy lives of the saints. 
I personally was healed in an instant from an addiction by saying the rosary for the first time. 

I love what Jesus loves and he loves his mother

Matthew 12:46-50

Jesus' Mother and Brothers
46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."

48 He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

It says his mother and brothers not the children of Mary these children where from Joseph's 1st marriage Joseph's was older and his first wife died
Or
They where Jesus's cousins since there was no word for cousin in Aramaic you can see that lot and Abraham are called brothers but are not brothers

That is an entirely made up story to try and  pretend that Mary never had sex with her God given husband, and never had children.Its entirely untrue and unBiblical, I am astounded you cant see that. 
 

Quote from: chosenone on Wed Mar 25, 2015 - 22:07:02

Quote from: Adamski on Wed Mar 25, 2015 - 18:56:01
All true Marian devotions will always lead to chrsit as savior.  Look at the holy lives of the saints. 
I personally was healed in an instant from an addiction by saying the rosary for the first time. 

I love what Jesus loves and he loves his mother

Matthew 12:46-50

Jesus' Mother and Brothers
46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."

48 He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

QFT!

Luke 11:27-28 (AMP)

27 Now it occurred that as He was saying these things, a certain woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, Blessed (happy and to be envied) is the womb that bore You and the breasts that You sucked!
28 But He said, Blessed (happy and to be envied) rather are those who hear the Word of God and obey and practice it!

Quote from: Adamski on Wed Apr 01, 2015 - 16:55:02

Quote from: chosenone on Wed Mar 25, 2015 - 22:07:02

Quote from: Adamski on Wed Mar 25, 2015 - 18:56:01
All true Marian devotions will always lead to chrsit as savior.  Look at the holy lives of the saints. 
I personally was healed in an instant from an addiction by saying the rosary for the first time. 

I love what Jesus loves and he loves his mother

Matthew 12:46-50

Jesus' Mother and Brothers
46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."

48 He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

It says his mother and brothers not the children of Mary these children where from Joseph's 1st marriage Joseph's was older and his first wife died
Or
They where Jesus's cousins since there was no word for cousin in Aramaic you can see that lot and Abraham are called brothers but are not brothers

The first wife thing would be from Apocryphal writings and referring to Melcha  and the supposed six children bore through Joseph.
Do Catholics hold to the Apocrypha?

 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

5 "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

9 "This, then, is how you should pray:

"'Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
    on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
    as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,[a]
    but deliver us from the evil one.'
14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Mary doesn't save people. Jesus does.