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Otter Creek is a CofC in the Nashville area that has just recently moved to a new location in Brentwood, TN (just south of Nashville).  It is known as being one of the most "progressive" CofC congregations in the area.  This past Sunday morning, I attended services at their new place.  I had visited the congregation on a couple of occasions at their old location.  But, I decided to visit since they have been in their new building for about a month now.

The sign out front says "Otter Creek Church."  Underneath that in smaller print, it reads, "a church of Christ."  The facility where they now meet was previously owned by an independent non-denominational church of some kind (I think).  They just recently (from what I understand) swapped buildings with the other church.  I don't know the details of that transaction.

I attended both Sunday school and the worship service.  What struck me was how friendly several people were.  As soon as I walked into the building, a man introduced himself and invited me to the Bible class he was going to.  The text being studied that morning was from Philippians 3.  The teacher seemed very knowledgeable and capable.

After class, I went to the auditorium and sat down for the worship service.  Again, people were very friendly.  The people on my row introduced themselves to me, etc.  Just in the few conversations I had with people, we were able to make connections... realized we knew people in common who attend where I normally attend, etc. 

The praise team went up to be seated on the stage as it approached time to begin.  The stage was pretty large.  Leaning across the steps in the front and center was a large rough wooden cross.  There was something resembling a crown of thorns draped over the top of the cross.  That was the center piece of the auditorium.

With just a couple of minutes until time to begin, a video started playing on the screens (two big screens located above each side of the stage).  It was (the only way I know how describe it) a rap song about Jesus.  On the screen were projected images (paintings) of Jesus with certain phrases flashing up that describe Him (Biblical phrases, for the most part).  The phrases went along with what was being said in the song.  There was the typical rap beat in the song, so it was instrumental (for what that's worth).  As the song started playing, the guy I had just met turned to me and said, "You never know what to expect here" (or something to that effect).  With a beginning like that, I had to ask myself what I was getting into.    But, that was about as extreme as it got.

After the video/rap song concluded, someone walked out on the stage and extended the welcome.  The praise team was sitting in chairs toward the back of the stage.  There was a microphone on the right side of the stage.  Whenever someone went up to the microphone, a spotlight shone on the person.  The auditorium was equipped with an impressive audio-video system and lighting.

Then, the phrase team stood up and began singing, facing the audience.  Each singer had a microphone.  I didn't count how many people (maybe about 8 or so).  But, there were both men and women.  It was all a cappella.  I knew most if not all of the songs.  I knew some of the songs from Zoe Group CDs I have (the Zoe Group is from Otter Creek).  But, they sang some traditional hymns as well.  The singing sounded very good.

After several songs, someone came up to give the comments before the Lord's Supper.  I must say that his comments and message were very good.  After Communion and maybe another song or two, Tim Woodroof came up to deliver the sermon.  The sermon was on the Cross and the meaning of the Cross, and I was very impressed with the message.  He made a point about how the Gospel is misunderstood in modern times... how it is treated like a self-help program and aluded to the health & wealth Gospel that is taught by many.  He spoke about the meaning of the Sacrifice.  On the screens were projected various pictures throughout the whole sermon.  When he spoke of the Sacrifice, a picture of a lamb was shown.  At the end, he explained the meaning of baptism in the context of the Cross.  He said that in baptism, the sinner is brought "into the Cross".  At that point, he extended the invitation, and the singers stood up to sing once again.

After that, there were a few more songs, the collection, and some announcements.  Also, this was apparently their "birthday Sunday."  All of the kids who had recent and/or upcoming birthdays were invited up to the stage with some of their parents.  "Happy Birthday" was sung to the kids.  In their announcements, they discussed their planned events on Easter weekend.  On Sunday night, April 16, there will apparently be a worship service that will include instrumental music.

Just a few remarks about it... I believe this type of experience will become more and more common among Churches of Christ in coming years.  After visiting a community church the week before, I came to a conclusion about Otter Creek and other like-minded CofCs:  what we are seeing here is the emergence of an interesting nexus between community-church/contempory style and many traditional CofC teachings (even orthodox Christianity).  From what I can tell, the doctrine of salvation (including the teaching on baptism, etc.) remains very much intact with traditional CofCs (although perhaps the approach is somewhat different).  There seems to be an enhanced emphasis on the Lord's Supper.  Also, it will be interesting to see what happens on the music question.  It seems that we have churches that are going from "non-instrumental" to "predominantly non-instrumental".  It could be that the formerly non-instrumental Churches of Christ are becoming more like their counterparts among independent Christian Churches.  But, I have not visited any ICC/CoCs to really know.

Visit a ICC, DCR.... extend that family.

Glad that the brethren at Otter Creek were friendly and loving... 

Glad you were there, DCR, and I'm glad it was a good experience for you.

I was up in the tech booth helping run things (where I usually am), but I would have loved to have met you.

Funny thing though... when you posted last week about visiting the Community Church, I posted this:

QuoteMy church seems to be in the process of becoming a MegaChurch and I'm really not sure how I feel about it.

Do I like the idea of more people joining with us in our mission? Yeah. Has our worship service become a bit more showy? Feels like it. Do I get to talk to all the people I used to see every week in our old (smaller) building? No.

I'm very torn about the whole mega-church deal.

And I was talking about Otter Creek. I'm very interested in some of the similarities you saw and didn't see.

Thanks.

Phil,

The "showmanship" is something that I'm not entirely comfortable with either.  But, that's probably my upbringing talking to some extent. 

Regarding the worship setting, with all due respect to the singers, it seems that their facial expressions and gestures while singing is just as much a part of the performance as the singing itself.  That's not to say that we should be anti-emotional (in CofCs, we traditionally shied away from emotionalism and placed the emphasis on cold rationalism instead).  But, it's no worse, in my opinion, than the big name song leaders that used to come to churches and impress them with their overpowering and operatic-like voices.  I remember growing up when we used to have "Gospel Meetings", there was as much a premium on getting a popular song leader as there was on the preacher holding the meeting.  I personally prefer the "worship leaders" (whether you're talking about the traditional song leader or members of a praise team) to not be the center of attention and not even call attention to themselves.  But, that's just my taste. 

There were some elements of Otter Creek that reminded me of the community church I visited (I visited Bellevue Community Church last week).  Although, there was a distinctly different flavor from the community church.  At the community church... make no mistake about it... it was a performance/concert.  The audience watched the band play.  One important difference at Otter Creek, though, is that the congregation, with its heritage in non-instrumental congregational singing still joins in.  So, the participation in worship was very much there.

QuoteRegarding the worship setting, with all due respect to the singers, it seems that their facial expressions and gestures while singing is just as much a part of the performance as the singing itself.  That's not to say that we should be anti-emotional

They are either sincere or false.  Why is the Church of Christ as a whole so against people showing their emotions?

What is wrong with emotions?

Quote from: Cliftyman on Wed Apr 05, 2006 - 15:10:42

What is wrong with emotions?

We could discuss that question all day.

But as I understand his post,  DCR isn't bothered by emotion so much as he is by Emotionalism (correct me if I'm wrong, DCR.)

I think there's a good bit wrong with a forced or practiced display of "emotion."

And I think there are some serious spiritual dangers related to some of the ideas I hear put forward -  particularly by those who insist on a sort of frenetic "joy" as an indicator of spiritual health.

Quote from: boringoldguy on Wed Apr 05, 2006 - 15:19:22

Quote from: Cliftyman on Wed Apr 05, 2006 - 15:10:42

What is wrong with emotions?

We could discuss that question all day.

But as I understand his post,  DCR isn't bothered by emotion so much as he is by Emotionalism (correct me if I'm wrong, DCR.)

I think there's a good bit wrong with a forced or practiced display of "emotion."

And I think there are some serious spiritual dangers related to some of the ideas I hear put forward -  particularly by those who insist on a sort of frenetic "joy" as an indicator of spiritual health.

Believe it or not, I agree with this.

Pax.

Quote from: Cliftyman on Wed Apr 05, 2006 - 15:10:42

QuoteRegarding the worship setting, with all due respect to the singers, it seems that their facial expressions and gestures while singing is just as much a part of the performance as the singing itself.  That's not to say that we should be anti-emotional

They are either sincere or false.  Why is the Church of Christ as a whole so against people showing their emotions?

What is wrong with emotions?

I was afraid that was going to be taken the wrong way.  There is nothing wrong with emotions as long as they are sincere. 

I'll try to explain... there can be a fine line between the appearance of emotion where the emotion is sincere and the appearance of emotion for the sake of making the right impression to the audience/congregation... in other words, the "display of emotion" becomes part of the performance.  Does that make any sense at all?

We certainly cannot read someone else's heart and should be careful about judging someone's display of emotion.  But, maybe, in the back of my mind, I'm thinking of statements of Jesus where He criticized the Pharisees for praying on the street corner so that they could be heard for their many words.  I think the same principle could potentially be applied to any worship leaders for the same reason.

Just something to think about. 

EDIT:  By the way, I am in no way implying that this was the case with the folks at Otter Creek.  The above was just an observation of a potential problem with worship leadership in general.

Quote from: boringoldguy on Wed Apr 05, 2006 - 15:19:22
I think there's a good bit wrong with a forced or practiced display of "emotion."

There.  That's exactly what I was trying to say, bog.

If the display of emotion ever becomes pretentious or "part of the show", that's when I have concerns.

I saw Zoe perform recently.  I thought it was a good performance.  They are great singers.  But it made me think about the whole "praise team" thing.

This was at the workshop in Tulsa, so it wasn't exactly a "worship service" after all, it wasn't Sunday before noon or after six [note, last part was a joke]

But still it had the feeling of a concert to it.  Many people participated but many did not.  I also wondered about how people coming in would react.  Would they feel encouraged? Would they participate?  Would they come back?  All in all, it reinforced my feeling that I don't particulalry care for "praise teams" as part of worship.  I cannot argue they are scripturaly prohibited, but I don't care for them on what I consider to be practical grounds.

It is difficult to worship as a group in a way that is inclusive of all.  Although I enjoy a good concert as much as anyone, I'm not sure it's a good idea to move toward that as our primary mode of worship, as it makes the majority of us spectators rather than participants.  And, when you move to the extreme of emotionalism that I have seen in some places, and equate spiritualism with this, you leave out a whole segment of people who may have a quieter, and perhaps more thoughtful, way of expressing themselves.  This might not be a good thing, either.

Quote from: ConnieLard on Wed Apr 05, 2006 - 16:18:13...And, when you move to the extreme of emotionalism that I have seen in some places, and equate spiritualism with this, you leave out a whole segment of people who may have a quieter, and perhaps more thoughtful, way of expressing themselves.  This might not be a good thing, either.

An extremely valid and valuable point.  It saddens me the number of friends I have who've left the CofC or the Church altogether because they saught emotional fulfillment somewhere else because it was stifled where they were.  HOWEVER, it also saddens me the number of brothers and sister I have that are more quiet and laid back that have been ridiculed for not "worshiping" or "praising" or "getting in the Spirit" just because they didn't display a requisite amount of emotionalism.  Both extremes damage.

QuoteI'll try to explain... there can be a fine line between the appearance of emotion where the emotion is sincere and the appearance of emotion for the sake of making the right impression to the audience/congregation... in other words, the "display of emotion" becomes part of the performance.  Does that make any sense at all?

We certainly cannot read someone else's heart and should be careful about judging someone's display of emotion.  But, maybe, in the back of my mind, I'm thinking of statements of Jesus where He criticized the Pharisees for praying on the street corner so that they could be heard for their many words.  I think the same principle could potentially be applied to any worship leaders for the same reason.

Just something to think about.

Well I understand that and I agree.  I think false emotion is awful to say the least.  I know however that the CoC has long tried to demonize emotion... they've even went so far as saying that emotion (crying, shouting, movement) can't be brought on by the Holy Spirit, but I've shown where that is not true even by the bible's standards.

I think we can't ever have enough emotion if its sincere.  I can tell you this much... any praise & worship team that practices emotion is sick.... very sick.

Quote from: Cliftyman on Wed Apr 05, 2006 - 16:44:58

Quote
I think we can't ever have enough emotion if its sincere. 

While I don't want to be seen as rejecting the validity of emotions,  I don't think that sincerity is a very good guidepost.     Lots of very evil deeds have been commited by very sincer people.

Flannery O'Connor (I think the most important Christian author of the 20th century) made a comment once about tenderness leading to the gas chamber.

Oh God, help me to someday get a chance to worship with a group that understands different learning styles and uses of multiple media...

Quote from: janine on Wed Apr 05, 2006 - 20:12:23
Oh God, help me to someday get a chance to worship with a group that understands different learning styles and uses of multiple media...

Do you have a Bible and a songbook?  That's multiple media... 

Shouldn't worship be between us and God?

Isn't it not, when all we are thinking and focusing on is who is standing up front, and how and where they stand, etc?

If it is a single songleader, are we just accustomed to that, therefore we don't get as distracted?

Where I attend on Sundays, we all are facing forward, but everyone is looking upward, not forward. Some raise their hands, sometimes clap, sometimes kneel, sometimes are crying, some sit and bow their heads and pray, but all are doing so for God's glory, not for someone critiquing them in the back. And if they weren't, that happens to be between them and God, and shouldn't concern everyone else. Maybe the problem is more on the line of being attention deficit rather than worshipful. The ones on the praise team sing, but also sometimes lead us in a recitation of scriptures, and then prayers are led by them in between songs.

If we keep our focus on God and Jesus, and worship in the Holy Spirit and truth, we wouldn't be worrying how everyone else "does worship".

This stuff saddens me. Let's let our God be the judge of the hearts, and stop being them ourselves.

Man, I hope we grow up soon.  

Memmy

Quote from: tidbit on Wed Apr 05, 2006 - 21:07:06

Quote from: janine on Wed Apr 05, 2006 - 20:12:23
Oh God, help me to someday get a chance to worship with a group that understands different learning styles and uses of multiple media...

Do you have a Bible and a songbook?  That's multiple media... 

And a copy of the church bulletin, too!

Quote. . . shouldn't concern everyone else. . .

Not saying we should sit in judgment of how everyone behaves in worship, but if it is of absolutely no concern to anyone else, why do it together?

Quote from: DCR on Wed Apr 05, 2006 - 10:14:15
Otter Creek is a CofC in the Nashville area that has just recently moved to a new location in Brentwood, TN (just south of Nashville).  It is known as being one of the most "progressive" CofC congregations in the area.  This past Sunday morning, I attended services at their new place.  I had visited the congregation on a couple of occasions at their old location.  But, I decided to visit since they have been in their new building for about a month now.

The sign out front says "Otter Creek Church."  Underneath that in smaller print, it reads, "a church of Christ."  The facility where they now meet was previously owned by an independent non-denominational church of some kind (I think).  They just recently (from what I understand) swapped buildings with the other church.  I don't know the details of that transaction.

I attended both Sunday school and the worship service.  What struck me was how friendly several people were.  As soon as I walked into the building, a man introduced himself and invited me to the Bible class he was going to.  The text being studied that morning was from Philippians 3.  The teacher seemed very knowledgeable and capable.

After class, I went to the auditorium and sat down for the worship service.  Again, people were very friendly.  The people on my row introduced themselves to me, etc.  Just in the few conversations I had with people, we were able to make connections... realized we knew people in common who attend where I normally attend, etc. 

The praise team went up to be seated on the stage as it approached time to begin.  The stage was pretty large.  Leaning across the steps in the front and center was a large rough wooden cross.  There was something resembling a crown of thorns draped over the top of the cross.  That was the center piece of the auditorium.

With just a couple of minutes until time to begin, a video started playing on the screens (two big screens located above each side of the stage).  It was (the only way I know how describe it) a rap song about Jesus.  On the screen were projected images (paintings) of Jesus with certain phrases flashing up that describe Him (Biblical phrases, for the most part).  The phrases went along with what was being said in the song.  There was the typical rap beat in the song, so it was instrumental (for what that's worth).  As the song started playing, the guy I had just met turned to me and said, "You never know what to expect here" (or something to that effect).  With a beginning like that, I had to ask myself what I was getting into.    But, that was about as extreme as it got.

After the video/rap song concluded, someone walked out on the stage and extended the welcome.  The praise team was sitting in chairs toward the back of the stage.  There was a microphone on the right side of the stage.  Whenever someone went up to the microphone, a spotlight shone on the person.  The auditorium was equipped with an impressive audio-video system and lighting.

Then, the phrase team stood up and began singing, facing the audience.  Each singer had a microphone.  I didn't count how many people (maybe about 8 or so).  But, there were both men and women.  It was all a cappella.  I knew most if not all of the songs.  I knew some of the songs from Zoe Group CDs I have (the Zoe Group is from Otter Creek).  But, they sang some traditional hymns as well.  The singing sounded very good.

After several songs, someone came up to give the comments before the Lord's Supper.  I must say that his comments and message were very good.  After Communion and maybe another song or two, Tim Woodroof came up to deliver the sermon.  The sermon was on the Cross and the meaning of the Cross, and I was very impressed with the message.  He made a point about how the Gospel is misunderstood in modern times... how it is treated like a self-help program and aluded to the health & wealth Gospel that is taught by many.  He spoke about the meaning of the Sacrifice.  On the screens were projected various pictures throughout the whole sermon.  When he spoke of the Sacrifice, a picture of a lamb was shown.  At the end, he explained the meaning of baptism in the context of the Cross.  He said that in baptism, the sinner is brought "into the Cross".  At that point, he extended the invitation, and the singers stood up to sing once again.

After that, there were a few more songs, the collection, and some announcements.  Also, this was apparently their "birthday Sunday."  All of the kids who had recent and/or upcoming birthdays were invited up to the stage with some of their parents.  "Happy Birthday" was sung to the kids.  In their announcements, they discussed their planned events on Easter weekend.  On Sunday night, April 16, there will apparently be a worship service that will include instrumental music.

Just a few remarks about it... I believe this type of experience will become more and more common among Churches of Christ in coming years.  After visiting a community church the week before, I came to a conclusion about Otter Creek and other like-minded CofCs:  what we are seeing here is the emergence of an interesting nexus between community-church/contempory style and many traditional CofC teachings (even orthodox Christianity).  From what I can tell, the doctrine of salvation (including the teaching on baptism, etc.) remains very much intact with traditional CofCs (although perhaps the approach is somewhat different).  There seems to be an enhanced emphasis on the Lord's Supper.  Also, it will be interesting to see what happens on the music question.  It seems that we have churches that are going from "non-instrumental" to "predominantly non-instrumental".  It could be that the formerly non-instrumental Churches of Christ are becoming more like their counterparts among independent Christian Churches.  But, I have not visited any ICC/CoCs to really know.

Interesting thing you've got going here. McDonalds pays people to go around to different restaurants unannounced and "try out the place" and report on it. Maybe you could start your own business. Or it could possibly be like a restaurant review in the Tennessean. (I have no idea what this means so here's a flaming head.)

Dennis, if you only read that part of my post, it would mean as you made it out to be. If I just took a part of what you said like this

Quotewe should sit in judgment of how everyone behaves in worship

it sure wouldn't look how you intended it to be either, would it?

I believe you got what I was trying to say, didn't you?

We shouldn't make others our main focus of worshipping God. If so, we are doing something wrong ourselves, and our heart sure isn't focused on Him, is it?

That make more sense?  

Memmy

Quote from: memmy on Wed Apr 05, 2006 - 21:46:06
This stuff saddens me. Let's let our God be the judge of the hearts, and stop being them ourselves.

Man, I hope we grow up soon.  

I agree.

I think you may have misjudged my intentions in all this.  The CofCs are changing... changing at a rapid and in some cases alarming pace in some places.  My purpose in doing this is not to critique for the sake of critiquing.  I thought it would be helpful to this board since this is a board focused on CofC issues.  This gives everyone a first hand account of the kinds of things that are now occurring in some CofCs... as well as the kinds of things we might expect on a larger scale in the future. 

This kind of stuff has been the cause of some churches splitting... regardless of who the guilty party is in any division.  That, I believe, is sad.

DCR,

I think most of us understand your intentions.   There is nothing wrong with visiting other places to see how they are managing their times of corporate worship, and then reflecting your thoughts re: this.  It is important that, if changes are made, they are done with thoughtfulness and much prayer, in a way that will be best for all concerned.  You are doing the "legwork", in investigating the possisbilities.  Then, asking the questions, like, "How does this affect the folks that are worshiping?" and "Is God glorified in this?"  I think it is a good thing.

Thanks, Connie.  These are issues that most of us are going to have to face sooner or later.

Change is sweeping through many churches (CofCs).  Some churches will take longer to change than others.  Some will change; some will remain the same.  There are all kinds of issues in our fellowship that will arise from this.  It's not something I take lightly.

As you said, we need to be prayerful in everything we do.

Spiritually speaking, change can be a sign of searching for something that's missing.
And outward change is often a sign that inner goals and purposes have changed.

QuoteShouldn't worship be between us and God?

The assembly isn't just for us to worship God.  I believe the primary reason is for the edification (instruction, encouragement) of and fellowship with the fellow believer.

QuoteAnd if they weren't, that happens to be between them and God, and shouldn't concern everyone else.

Concern for the fellow believer is a lot of what the assembly is for.

QuoteIf we keep our focus on God and Jesus, and worship in the Holy Spirit and truth, we wouldn't be worrying how everyone else "does worship".

If worship is the only reason for the assembly, or the only reason we should have any concern at all, and we entirely keep our focus on the worship of Christ, what is the point of the assembly, would it not be easier to worship Christ along with some TV program?

QuoteThis stuff saddens me. Let's let our God be the judge of the hearts, and stop being them ourselves.

It saddens me as well.  Remember though, those "progressives" can be every bit as judging and legalistic as the "legalist."  If worship in the assembly is about more than myself worshipping, then the concern of the leaders of the church should be about all, and that may mean not changing for the sake of change, or at least slowing it down, so as not to leave anyone behind.

Lost,

To take your suggestion further, DCR could be a field journalist for CM.   

Quote from: JerryBrooke on Thu Apr 06, 2006 - 07:19:10
Lost,

To take your suggestion further, DCR could be a field journalist for CM.   

Yeah right.  Don't worry... I don't think they would have me.

That's Donnie's job anyway.

Quote from: JerryBrooke on Thu Apr 06, 2006 - 07:17:35

QuoteShouldn't worship be between us and God?

The assembly isn't just for us to worship God.  I believe the primary reason is for the edification (instruction, encouragement) of and fellowship with the fellow believer.

QuoteAnd if they weren't, that happens to be between them and God, and shouldn't concern everyone else.

Concern for the fellow believer is a lot of what the assembly is for.

QuoteIf we keep our focus on God and Jesus, and worship in the Holy Spirit and truth, we wouldn't be worrying how everyone else "does worship".

If worship is the only reason for the assembly, or the only reason we should have any concern at all, and we entirely keep our focus on the worship of Christ, what is the point of the assembly, would it not be easier to worship Christ along with some TV program?

QuoteThis stuff saddens me. Let's let our God be the judge of the hearts, and stop being them ourselves.

It saddens me as well.  Remember though, those "progressives" can be every bit as judging and legalistic as the "legalist."  If worship in the assembly is about more than myself worshipping, then the concern of the leaders of the church should be about all, and that may mean not changing for the sake of change, or at least slowing it down, so as not to leave anyone behind.

What also strikes me in the changes in worship within the Churches of Christ [as observed by DCR] is that it is a sea change. There is no longer a general (near-universal) acceptance of a Regulative Principle of Worship within Churches of Christ; the pendulum has swung over to Normative, and with a vengeance.

DCR's observations have been quite interesting. Frankly, his observations are exactly in line (except for the inclusion of some acapella singing) with with what I've seen of worship assemblies in other religious groups like Baptist, Pentacostal, Assemblies of God, etc. Once again, "pushing the envelope" within Churches of Christ is "old news" in the evangelical mainstream.

I do wonder whether this is an outgrowth of the growing acceptance of the concept of "worship as a lifestyle" finally reaching its fruition in the form of bringing American 21st-century culture (our entertainment-based multimedia lifestyle) into the worship assembly.

It's a natural conclusion -- if one really believes in a "worship lifestyle", then the 'traditional Church of Christ "worship assembly" concept becomes archaic, and the assembly has no distinct purpose, just "assembly". Then it's not surprising to see a response of bringing "lifestyle" into the "assembly" (probably incrementally). And it's also not surprising that a visitor looks in and sees an assembly that is 'travelling down this road' as "a concert" -- something that the participants never really noticed was happening as they traveled this route, but is obvious to a person who visits (kind of like the relative who notices how much the kids have grown).
[edit]
I wonder if the cable company can bring worship to my living room in Dolby Theater Surround Sound?

I agree strongly in prayer and letting the Holy Spirit guide the worship services. At the same time the Holy Spirit doesn't just show up on Sundays, He is dwelling in all believers.

The Holy Spirit should be asked to be a part of all things in the believers life, not just on certain days of the week, or certain hours in such days.

This world we are in is a world of technology and change. If we are in this world, we should try to continue to make the changes to be able to reach out to the world. I would hope that Christians who have been Christians in this life longer, could surely be able to understand that we need to be a part of drawing new Christians into life of worship and praise however it means to do so.

Jesus was also condemned for how He changed things in the world too. If the central focus is on Him and Him solely, we would stop, and find out how to bring others to Him, and realize that this is our sole purpose as Christians.

If some are concerned with change, then stay where you are, or if change is happening and you don't see it edifying to you, then move on and plant a place where those who feel as you do can be.

I consider a church plant, not a division, but a chance to grow His kingdom. Many believe a church split as a negative. That is not always the case unless the people aren't keeping their relationship close to God. That is what I am saying is a personal thing between them and our Savior God.

Many places in the scriptures, we see that our walk with our God is related to a harvest, a vine, a place of growth. When we separate plants and vines and continue to fertilize it, in sometimes new ways, we can grow a larger yield or crop. As a gardener or a farmer knows, we have to sometimes divide the plants to help them grow stronger and yield better fruit.

We should all try harder to look at what connects us, and that is Jesus Christ, the Vine.
We are the branches, branches reach out and produce the yield. It isn't the job of the branches to make sure we are growing as intended, the Vine is our source of where the branches reach out, and where the nutrients flow from, our life source.

When we begin to see that it is our responsibility to continue to try to help make Him grow in our lives and the lives of others, we would stop trying to cut down the yield and begin to see that we come from a larger crop, the body of Christ, His church, a church where, just because we don't do everything exactly the same, we have the same Vine we belong to.

That goes for anywhere we go, not just the building we walk in on Sundays. Even on this site.

Memmy

Quote from: memmy on Wed Apr 05, 2006 - 22:47:44
Dennis, if you only read that part of my post, it would mean as you made it out to be. If I just took a part of what you said like this

Quotewe should sit in judgment of how everyone behaves in worship

it sure wouldn't look how you intended it to be either, would it?

I believe you got what I was trying to say, didn't you?

We shouldn't make others our main focus of worshipping God. If so, we are doing something wrong ourselves, and our heart sure isn't focused on Him, is it?

That make more sense?  

Memmy

Memmy, Memmy, Memmy.

At least I didn't edit out a word that that diametrically changed the meaning of the quoted phrase.  You said several things in your post that are consistent with the part I quoted.  For example, you started out by saying:

QuoteShouldn't worship be between us and God?

I don't see anything in it that is inconsistent with that thought.  Be that as it may, I am not trying reduce this thing to personal attacks or to accuse you of anything.  But I am challenging that view of worship that is expressed by the quoted portion of your post.  If that is not your view great --- but I have seen that thought expressed [or at the very least danced around] in recent times in a numbered of settings and it troubles me.  As I said, if that is ALL the assembly is for, then why meet together?  Why assemble?

Let me make this clear.  I am just as troubled with those whose sole purpose is to find fault as I am with those who argue what I do is nobody's business but mine -- that worship is ONLY between me and God.  The NT makes explicitly clear that Christianity is a religion of community.  If I go to the assembly and do not recognize my brothers and sisters, I think I have failed in God's purpose for the assembly.  Jesus himself said that the mark of his disciples, that is, how they would be recognized, is how they love one another, not the quality of their worship or any number of things we might imagine.

I recently heard Wade Hodges give a talk on the subject of either/or choices.  He made the point that in too many cases we limit ourselves to either/or when it should be both/and.  I think this is one of those cases. It is not either God or each other, it is both God and each other. If we leave either out of the equation, the books don't balance.

I think Jerry's description of church is what it was designed for: teaching  and admonishing, instructing, uplifting, edification, bearing one another's burdens, spurring one another on to love and good deeds.  If, as Paul seems to indicate, and Jesus himself seemed to be saying to the Samritan woman, a believer's life is worship, their "spiritual sacrifice," if no longer are we required to go to a certain place and perform certain riituals, but now worship in "spirit and in truth," then what's the point of our traditional coroporate worship assembly? Is that not basically a Protestant hold-over from the Catholic Mass? Where the congregation assembles together to observe the celebrant and deacons as they lead the service? Yes, there's congregational participation via singing and receiving communion in a Catholic Mass, but its still largely a "spectator sport." Protestant assemblies are built upon the same principle, it seems to me, with the "worship leaders" up front and visible and the audience basically as spectators. I don't believe such is wrong, but if that's all our assemblies are I think we may be missing the whole point of why we're encouraged to assemble together in the first place.

If one went back to ancient Ephesus, for example, would one see a corporate assembly where a congregation of people asembled together in one big room and sang, prayed, observed communion, heard a sermon, then closing announcements, then left? None of these things is wrong, but for centuries churches have had these types of corporate worship assemblies, often ignoring the koinonia, the true fellowship and communion, the edification, encouragement and uplift, the assembly was designed to provide. People would sit for an hour "worshiping" God, and then leave, with the same problems, struggles, worries, etc., they had when they came because we only emphasized the vertical relationship between each believer and God, and often ommitted the horizontal relationship between the members of the body. We stressed the individual's private worship and communion with God, practically ignoring the people in front of us, behind, and to the sides of us. I am not saying that God can't reach a person individually by themselves, but if he can, and that's the only way he can, why assemble together? If all we need is God, why did God create Eve? Adam should've been fine with just himself and God. But we're told to assemble together. Is it not because we need to be together with each other, to commune around the table with each other and our God? IMHO, church is less about us worshiping God via a liturgy or "five acts" (a liturgy in its own right!) and more about our teaching and admonishing one another. I believe that when we do that, God derives more worship from that, than he would from five hundred choruses of "How Great Thou Art" or three hundred sermons.

The more I learn about twelve-step groups the more convinced I become that they are in many ways what God intended church to be.

Pax.

Dennis,
I do happen to agree with you 100%. Maybe I am just not coming across as well.
Obviously I have been misunderstood before, and I am sure I will be again. I'm just that human.

I know that we should be concerned with others. I surely hope I don't come across as not being so. I meant that if our purpose is to make each other agree with our ways, and we believe our ways are from God too, what do we do?

The main point I am trying to make is that we need our central focus to be on Him, and not us. When He is the central focus, everything else should come after that.

Does that make any more sense?

Memmy

I convinced that we place a whole lot of importance and discussion on what happens in an hour on Sunday, and far too little on how we live our lives following Jesus the rest of the time.

IMHO.