Christian Forums

Ecclesiastes reads like a confessional manuscript to me.

Bonnie, you might ask how many who believe in the death penalty would actually be able to sentence someone to death if they were on a jury?  I'm not so sure that I could do it. 

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 11:04:01

Quote from: jmg3rd on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 10:53:51

Quote from: Bonnie on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 10:22:33

Quote from: trueblue on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 10:01:14
This is from the Old Testament, but since ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 2 Timothy 3:16, here it is:

Ecclesiastes 3:1-3
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
A time to kill, and a time to heal...

You are speaking about a time when Israel was physcial. They were God's chosen people.  We would do well today to have a man like Solomon... instead of our elected officials.

Thanks for your input, trueblue.

You mean a man who spent incredible fortunes on self-fancy, introduced all kinds of idolatry, had a harem, and whose sons ripped the nation apart leading to all sorts of political, social, religious, and economic mayhem?  You sure?   

Yeah, I too hate it when people Ecclesiastes as an authoritative guide to How Things Should Be.

Yeah, right.  So, let's just throw that book out of the Bible.  Any others you don't like or agree with?   

Quote from: Bonnie on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 09:33:22

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 08:37:02
Mat 15:4   For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.  (Jesus speaking)

Rom 1:18   For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness...
Rom 1:32   Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

2 minutes of searching turned up these.  If you'd like I can find more.

Yes, but just can't go snatching up verses here and there and taking them out of context.  I don't see anything here that is for the Death Penalty under man's laws.

Man's laws?  I thought we were talking about God's judgment.  Why would we attempt to establish man's laws from the New Testament?

Actually, I'm not in favor of the death penalty under the current judicial system in the US.  I would be if appeal laws were different though. 

I'll tell you what I am in favor of though - penal colonies!!!  You wanna be a drug dealer?  Welcome to Columbia.  Knock yourself out.

Paul agreed with the death penalty:

Act 25:11 "For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die: but if there be none of these things whereof these accuse me, no man may deliver me unto them. I appeal unto Caesar."

As far as society goes, going back to John 8, In those days the woman would be stoned to death for committing adultery, and the man was seen as an innocent party.
This was wrong.  

As far as people who go out and torture, maim and kill innocent parties.  God loves them too.  He can reach out and touch their lives.   The only problem is how many are to know if they are truly changed, or that they just want to escape burning in hell. or death by lethal injection, or the electric chair?

Last Sunday we had a guest speaker at our church who is involved with prison ministry in PA.  I wish I could discuss all of this with him.   There is a tremendous need for Christians to reach out to these lost souls.  And those in the prison system realize that conversion to Christianity works.  They have seen a difference and want more involvement by the church.

Here's a link to  Justice and Mercy
and a quote from their site:

Justice and Mercy believes that persons must change from the inside out--and that the power to change a life can only come from the Gospel of Jesus Christ. At the heart of the Gospel is the affirmation that "if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: everything old has passed away; see, everything has become new!" (2 Corinthians 5:17; NRSV).

Not only do we believe in the power of Jesus Christ to change lives, we also have seen many lives changed and bear witness to the genuineness of God's work in those who come to Christ.

We therefore unconditionally advocate for incorporating Christian ministry into the efforts of the Justice System. Lives changed by the power of Jesus Christ will positively impact our society and our world.

Justice and Mercy seeks to promote safer communities through justice system reform. For this to happen the system must be an effective agent of change in the lives of incarcerated individuals.


 

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 11:16:55
Paul agreed with the death penalty:

Act 25:11 "For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die: but if there be none of these things whereof these accuse me, no man may deliver me unto them. I appeal unto Caesar."

Charles, I have already agreed that Paul teaches respect for those in authority. I think he proved his case by staying locked up a lot of the time.  And yes, he told them he was willing to die  --- if he were guilty, but he was not guilty of such a crime and wanted an appeal so that some day or another he might be a free man... to preach the Gospel.

That in no way is close to an assumption that he would have taken part in the case of Death Penalty. I believe he would have been one persuaded to teach them about Jesus.

Blessings,
Bonnie

Quote from: trueblue on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 10:59:37
For most of my life I had a doormat philosophy of turning the other cheek and if someone wanted to harm you, you'd  take it as God's will.  Then I read the entire Bible over ten times and began to change my outlook.  Also, my life experiences has taught me that you have a right to protect yourself and your family from harm.  Before that, I always believed that if someone came to rob you and came into your house, you'd just have to consider it "God's will" and let them kill you and take what they want.   I know now that it was "stinking thinking." 

There are consequences to what you do, both good and bad, and God set up the laws that are in place today to prevent people from further "shedding innocent blood."   God did command people to kill at certain times, and if they didn't obey, they, themselves were killed.  There is a time to kill.  By killing murderers who show no remorse it will prevent other innocent victims from having their lives taken.  People who kill have little respect for human life to begin with.

Earlier this month, a local woman pastor who was working at a Lane Bryant store as manager was murdered along with 4 other innocent women who were mothers of young children, or newly married, or just starting out in life with hopes and dreams for a bright future.  They were working to earn a living, or just shopping for clothing.  The man who came to rob the store and anyone who walked in, brutally "lost it" as he could be heard saying on a 911 call.  He bound the women with duct tape, made them lie down on the floor, and shot them each in the head.  A sixth victim survived only because she moved her head. 

That man is roaming free as no one has provided a solid lead.  Will he kill again?  Most likely.  Should he receive a slap on the hand, and a reprimand once he is caught?  I don't think so!  What he did is worthy of death.  Babies are without their mamas today, because of that man.  Young husbands must now find a way to raise their children alone because he took the lives of their dear wives.

God is a just God, and a merciful one, but He's also a God that metes out punishment, and sometimes uses our legal system to administer it.  The Bible also calls certain people "dregs of the earth."  There are people that won't change their evil ways no matter what.  The same way they have a free will to do right, they choose to do wrong and things worthy of death. 

A few years ago there was a young woman named Carla who accepted the Lord in prison, and became a model prisoner.  She repented of murdering someone, and her life totally changed.  Even so, she went peacefully to be executed, because she knew that she had to pay for the crime she committed, and that she was forgiven and would go to heaven after she died. 

The death penalty is serious business, and it should make people realize the sanctity of human life.  It is in place to save lives, not just as punishment.

I could go on, but this has been long enough already. 

This is a sad cruel world. I look forward to the time when Christ will bring righteous judgements and call all of this to a close.

Quote from: Bonnie on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 11:47:02

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 11:16:55
Paul agreed with the death penalty:

Act 25:11 "For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die: but if there be none of these things whereof these accuse me, no man may deliver me unto them. I appeal unto Caesar."

Charles, I have already agreed that Paul teaches respect for those in authority. I think he proved his case by staying locked up a lot of the time.  And yes, he told them he was willing to die  --- if he were guilty, but he was not guilty of such a crime and wanted an appeal so that some day or another he might be a free man... to preach the Gospel.

That in no way is close to an assumption that he would have taken part in the case of Death Penalty. I believe he would have been one persuaded to teach them about Jesus.

Blessings,
Bonnie

Paul agrees that if someone is guilty of death that they should die.

That's Scriptural support for the death penalty from the New Testament.

I love the book of Ecclesiastes. It's always been a favorite of mine. I just fail to see where a time to kill applies here.

God bless,
Bonnie

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 11:56:43

Quote from: Bonnie on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 11:47:02

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 11:16:55
Paul agreed with the death penalty:

Act 25:11 "For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die: but if there be none of these things whereof these accuse me, no man may deliver me unto them. I appeal unto Caesar."

Charles, I have already agreed that Paul teaches respect for those in authority. I think he proved his case by staying locked up a lot of the time.  And yes, he told them he was willing to die  --- if he were guilty, but he was not guilty of such a crime and wanted an appeal so that some day or another he might be a free man... to preach the Gospel.

That in no way is close to an assumption that he would have taken part in the case of Death Penalty. I believe he would have been one persuaded to teach them about Jesus.

Blessings,
Bonnie

Paul agrees that if someone is guilty of death that they should die.

That's Scriptural support for the death penalty from the New Testament.

I fail to see it that way. He never even implies that.

Quote from: trueblue on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 11:06:34
Bonnie, you might ask how many who believe in the death penalty would actually be able to sentence someone to death if they were on a jury?  I'm not so sure that I could do it. 

I know that I couldn't. 

Quote from: trueblue on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 11:07:40

QuoteYeah, I too hate it when people Ecclesiastes as an authoritative guide to How Things Should Be.

Yeah, right.  So, let's just throw that book out of the Bible.  Any others you don't like or agree with?   

When was the last time you read Ecclesiastes?  It serves its purpose very well.  But that purpose has nothing to do with an example of how to live.

Ecclesiastes is a monologue on the futility of human achievement.

It's a guide for How Things Should NOT Be!!!

It should not be quoted as an example of how we should behave.  Ever.

Quote from: broach972 on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 10:57:53

This is a very weak argument.  You are assuming that "governments" are perfect in their judgements.  Only God's judgement is perfect and we should leave it to Him to deal with such matters.  What if an innocent man is put to death for a crime he did not commit?  In light of recent events involving DNA, one cannot dismiss the notion that there may be some on death row who should not be there.

Your argument is a two-edged sword, cutting both ways.

One of the arguments against the current death penalties is that we do not require the same amount of evidence as even in the OT [two or more witnesses, perjurers getting the same punishment as the accused, etc], so that through negligence or malice, the probability of an innocent person being executed was uncomfortably high.

However, by tightening the requirements of evidence in a capital case, along with the new forensic technology you cite, the chances of someone being railroaded to the gallows could be nearly eliminating, thus eliminating your objection.

Quote from: Bonnie on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 12:01:08

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 11:56:43

Quote from: Bonnie on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 11:47:02

Quote from: Charles Sloan on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 11:16:55
Paul agreed with the death penalty:

Act 25:11 "For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die: but if there be none of these things whereof these accuse me, no man may deliver me unto them. I appeal unto Caesar."

Charles, I have already agreed that Paul teaches respect for those in authority. I think he proved his case by staying locked up a lot of the time.  And yes, he told them he was willing to die  --- if he were guilty, but he was not guilty of such a crime and wanted an appeal so that some day or another he might be a free man... to preach the Gospel.

That in no way is close to an assumption that he would have taken part in the case of Death Penalty. I believe he would have been one persuaded to teach them about Jesus.

Blessings,
Bonnie

Paul agrees that if someone is guilty of death that they should die.

That's Scriptural support for the death penalty from the New Testament.

I fail to see it that way. He never even implies that.

How can you say he doesn't imply it, he actually says it.

Act 25:11 "For if I be an offender [or if he is guilty] or have committed any thing worthy of death [agreement that some crimes deserve death] I refuse not to die: [approval to the penalty] but if there be none of these things whereof these accuse me [need of witnesses] no man may deliver me unto them [without witnesses the death penalty is wrong]."

Quote from: normfromga on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 13:00:03
However, by tightening the requirements of evidence in a capital case, along with the new forensic technology you cite, the chances of someone being railroaded to the gallows could be nearly eliminating, thus eliminating your objection.

Since the death penalty is somewhat final, the word "nearly" just doesn't cut it with me.  Again, I am amazed that many just do not undestand the gravity of this issue.  As humans, we can never say 100% that nothing will go wrong in such cases.  The system is not perfect, and frankly, it never can be.  Besides, even I could plant DNA to make someone look guility if I wanted to.  So, my objection not only stands but continues to be a valid one.

I'm curious why the poll asks us for only New Testament refererences.

Quote from: Bonnie on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 10:55:50

Quote from: admin on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 10:34:57

QuoteI think prison or a hospital is where the ones who aren't capable of living in society should be.

Bonnie, where is your scripture to justify that?

If the Death Penalty is out don't you think it's the humane thing to do? If we as Christians had to make a choice.  Actually, Paul told them all what will happen to them if they choose to live that kind of life.  Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Actually, I think that is a paraphrase of Jesus' warning to Peter (Matt 26:52), though it is similar to God's words to Noah (Gen 9:6), or John's admonition to the saints (rev.13:10).

However, I do not think that any of these passages, in themselves, should be prooftexts on side or the other in this discussion.

Quote from: segell on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 13:24:25
I'm curious why the poll asks us for only New Testament refererences.

Because we are no longer under the law of the OT.

Quote from: segell on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 13:24:25
I'm curious why the poll asks us for only New Testament refererences.

Because it's always easier to make a "scriptural" argument if you negate the use of 2/3's of scripture?

Quote from: broach972 on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 13:16:17

Quote from: normfromga on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 13:00:03
However, by tightening the requirements of evidence in a capital case, along with the new forensic technology you cite, the chances of someone being railroaded to the gallows could be nearly eliminating, thus eliminating your objection.

Since the death penalty is somewhat final, the word "nearly" just doesn't cut it with me.  Again, I am amazed that many just do not understand the gravity of this issue.  As humans, we can never say 100% that nothing will go wrong in such cases.  The system is not perfect, and frankly, it never can be.  Besides, even I could plant DNA to make someone look guilty if I wanted to.  So, my objection not only stands but continues to be a valid one.

You are right to stick to your guns, protesting the statistically possible.

But then, so soon after the US is told that we now have reached the one-percent our total population under lock-and-key, you must have to consider the only foolproof alternative:

Life imprisonment, with no chance of parole, and thus, no chance of "rehabilitation."

For we can point to scores of cases where convicted criminals leave their hospitals or prisons due to time-served, "good behavior," "cure," appeals, "finding God", parole, or just plain escape, only to kill or rape again.

But is this option really all that humane?

I'm opposed.  From Jesus' words throughout the New Testament, I assume he would be opposed, too.

Quote from: segell on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 13:24:25
I'm curious why the poll asks us for only New Testament refererences.

The person asking didn't like what the Old Testament had to say about it.

QuoteFor if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die: but if there be none of these things whereof these accuse me, no man may deliver me unto them. I appeal unto Caesar.

I see you are still twisting scripture.  I really thought you were above that.  You know as I do that Paul is merely appealing to a higher court.

Bonnie

Isn't everybody here pleased to be living during the Church Age under Grace.
Then why do you wish to go back to the beggerly elements of the OT?


Bonnie

I live in the state where George Ryan did away with the death penalty for a time.  Before he did, he made a sham of pretending to care about the victims and their families by listening to their pleas as to why it should be kept in force.  The relatives were forced to relive the horrific murders of their loved ones as they begged and pleaded with him to help give them closure.  They told of the brutal crimes that their sons, daughters, sisters, brothers, mothers or fathers had to endure at the hands of the guilty.  In the end, Gov. Ryan ignored their pain and suffering, and didn't care that the victims or their survivors did not receive justice.  He wanted to make a name for himself before he left office, and did a favor for every murderer in Illinois and elsewhere as other states followed his lead by pardoning everyone on death row.

It breaks my heart when I hear of judges with the same attitude letting pedophiles go free to hurt more innocent children.   It is rare that they can ever be rehabilitated.  Common sense alone would say to keep them locked behind bars or give them the death penalty if they have also murdered.    One perverted act inflicted upon a child will affect them for life.  I once worked for a counseling agency, and have seen the results of such childhood trauma.  Many never get past even one such incident.  Their lives revolve around it forever and they always carry the scars.   

How is it showing love to the innocent victims of crime when we favor the guilty?  We are to love everyone, forgive those who repent and ask for forgiveness, pray that they will be saved, but we must realize that like words once spoken that can't be taken back, there are consequences to our actions--both good and bad.  Shedding innocent blood and treating human life as so easily disposable is extremely serious.  God has set up an orderly system and to pardon murderers so they'll be free to kill again and again is ludicrous. 

We have been taught not to favor one life over another, and the murderer is loved also by God.  That still won't stop that man or woman being sent to hell if they don't repent.  Like salvation, it is a choice they make.  If they choose to take an innocent life, then it is they themselves that are willing to send themselves to death row. 

This is such an explosive topic, because we think of Christians as people who are supposed to show nothing but LOVE.  We are made in God's image, but forget there are times when He does get angry and when He will mete out punishment.  I still believe that God has set up the judicial system here on earth and uses it to keep some sort of order in the midst of the chaos around us.  JMHO   

Quote from: trueblue on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 15:24:54
I live in the state where George Ryan did away with the death penalty for a time.  Before he did, he made a sham of pretending to care about the victims and their families by listening to their pleas as to why it should be kept in force.  The relatives were forced to relive the horrific murders of their loved ones as they begged and pleaded with him to help give them closure.  They told of the brutal crimes that their sons, daughters, sisters, brothers, mothers or fathers had to endure at the hands of the guilty.  In the end, Gov. Ryan ignored their pain and suffering, and didn't care that the victims or their survivors did not receive justice.  He wanted to make a name for himself before he left office, and did a favor for every murderer in Illinois and elsewhere as other states followed his lead by pardoning everyone on death row.

It breaks my heart when I hear of judges with the same attitude letting pedophiles go free to hurt more innocent children.   It is rare that they can ever be rehabilitated.  Common sense alone would say to keep them locked behind bars or give them the death penalty if they have also murdered.    One perverted act inflicted upon a child will affect them for life.  I once worked for a counseling agency, and have seen the results of such childhood trauma.  Many never get past even one such incident.  Their lives revolve around it forever and they always carry the scars.  

How is it showing love to the innocent victims of crime when we favor the guilty?  We are to love everyone, forgive those who repent and ask for forgiveness, pray that they will be saved, but we must realize that like words once spoken that can't be taken back, there are consequences to our actions--both good and bad.  Shedding innocent blood and treating human life as so easily disposable is extremely serious.  God has set up an orderly system and to pardon murderers so they'll be free to kill again and again is ludicrous. 

We have been taught not to favor one life over another, and the murderer is loved also by God.  That still won't stop that man or woman being sent to hell if they don't repent.  Like salvation, it is a choice they make.  If they choose to take an innocent life, then it is they themselves that are willing to send themselves to death row. 

This is such an explosive topic, because we think of Christians as people who are supposed to show nothing but LOVE.  We are made in God's image, but forget there are times when He does get angry and when He will mete out punishment.  I still believe that God has set up the judicial system here on earth and uses it to keep some sort of order in the midst of the chaos around us.  JMHO  

It has been said that nobody died a more cruel death than our Lord.  I have no reason not to believe that is true.
God says vengeance is His; He will repay.  I have complete faith that He will.  Nothing slips His all seeing eye or is beyond His reach.

I am not in the middle of this. I am not the enemy here.  I do question this and other things we are doing in this life.  That's why I'm trying to have a discussion about it.  Surely with all the Christians here we can get the right answer.

If you truly want to believe that God personally put in this President and that He made our laws - what about the bad laws?  The ones allowing abortion?  The ones supporting the Gays?  The ones that do nothing when people break the commandments of God!

Get real!

You believe all that?  What about the other countries?  If God is running America, He is also running them?  Think about that!

Yes, God is in charge, He is in control and He holds ALL power but that is not to say that He personally has a hand in everything that is going on.


Prayers,
Bonnie

Quote from: trueblue on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 15:24:54
I live in the state where George Ryan did away with the death penalty for a time.  Before he did, he made a sham of pretending to care about the victims and their families by listening to their pleas as to why it should be kept in force.  The relatives were forced to relive the horrific murders of their loved ones as they begged and pleaded with him to help give them closure.  They told of the brutal crimes that their sons, daughters, sisters, brothers, mothers or fathers had to endure at the hands of the guilty.  In the end, Gov. Ryan ignored their pain and suffering, and didn't care that the victims or their survivors did not receive justice.  He wanted to make a name for himself before he left office, and did a favor for every murderer in Illinois and elsewhere as other states followed his lead by pardoning everyone on death row.

It breaks my heart when I hear of judges with the same attitude letting pedophiles go free to hurt more innocent children.   It is rare that they can ever be rehabilitated.  Common sense alone would say to keep them locked behind bars or give them the death penalty if they have also murdered.    One perverted act inflicted upon a child will affect them for life.  I once worked for a counseling agency, and have seen the results of such childhood trauma.  Many never get past even one such incident.  Their lives revolve around it forever and they always carry the scars.   

How is it showing love to the innocent victims of crime when we favor the guilty?  We are to love everyone, forgive those who repent and ask for forgiveness, pray that they will be saved, but we must realize that like words once spoken that can't be taken back, there are consequences to our actions--both good and bad.  Shedding innocent blood and treating human life as so easily disposable is extremely serious.  God has set up an orderly system and to pardon murderers so they'll be free to kill again and again is ludicrous. 

We have been taught not to favor one life over another, and the murderer is loved also by God.  That still won't stop that man or woman being sent to hell if they don't repent.  Like salvation, it is a choice they make.  If they choose to take an innocent life, then it is they themselves that are willing to send themselves to death row. 

This is such an explosive topic, because we think of Christians as people who are supposed to show nothing but LOVE.  We are made in God's image, but forget there are times when He does get angry and when He will mete out punishment.  I still believe that God has set up the judicial system here on earth and uses it to keep some sort of order in the midst of the chaos around us.  JMHO   

I remember the day that Gov. Ryan did that.  I remember thinking that here is a corrupt man, a man who may go to prison himself for taking money for political favors -- yet, on this day, he has chosen to follow Jesus and do what is right. 

Regarding closure, I have yet to hear the family of a murder victim say after the execution was carried out that they have 'closure'.  There is no 'closure' when you lose a loved one.  There's always a gaping wound.  If there's not, then you're heartless, imo.

I had the privilege of meeting Sister Helen Prejean a couple of years ago.  My already-solid opposition to state-sponsored murder has only been made more solid by the testimonies of Sister Prejean and the late Cardinal Bernadin and Gov. Ryan and all those who have decided to challenge the status quo.

Quote from: Bonnie on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 15:50:55

It has been said that nobody died a more cruel death than our Lord.  I have no reason not to believe that is true.
God says vengeance is His; He will repay.  I have complete faith that He will.  Nothing slips His all seeing eye or is beyond His reach.

I am not in the middle of this. I am not the enemy here.  I do question this and other things we are doing in this life.  That's why I'm trying to have a discussion about it.  Surely with all the Christians here we can get the right answer.

If you truly want to believe that God personally put in this President and that He made our laws - what about the bad laws?  The ones allowing abortion?  The ones supporting the Gays?  The ones that do nothing when people break the commandments of God!

Get real!

You believe all that?  What about the other countries?  If God is running America, He is also running them?  Think about that!

Yes, God is in charge, He is in control and He holds ALL power but that is not to say that He personally has a hand in everything that is going on.  Prayers,
Bonnie

Are all of the laws good ones?  No.  This is not a perfect world, unfortunately.  God is a God of order, however, and has set up a system of judges, laws, etc.  It is man that has made it corrupt.  And...I do believe that God ALWAYS has the final say in what is going on.  He just may not choose to intervene all of the time, and lets us run amok to show us our need for Him. 

I don't expect to change anyone's way of thinking on this subject through expressing my opinion.  Each person has his own ideas as to how to interpret God's view of the death penalty.   This is a discussion, and not a fight.  You can't take everyone's views personally.  If you want to truly discuss the matter, you have to hear both sides of the debate with an open mind, and not take offense.   

Quote from: trueblue on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 16:27:29

Quote from: Bonnie on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 15:50:55

It has been said that nobody died a more cruel death than our Lord.  I have no reason not to believe that is true.
God says vengeance is His; He will repay.  I have complete faith that He will.  Nothing slips His all seeing eye or is beyond His reach.

I am not in the middle of this. I am not the enemy here.  I do question this and other things we are doing in this life.  That's why I'm trying to have a discussion about it.  Surely with all the Christians here we can get the right answer.

If you truly want to believe that God personally put in this President and that He made our laws - what about the bad laws?  The ones allowing abortion?  The ones supporting the Gays?  The ones that do nothing when people break the commandments of God!

Get real!

You believe all that?  What about the other countries?  If God is running America, He is also running them?  Think about that!

Yes, God is in charge, He is in control and He holds ALL power but that is not to say that He personally has a hand in everything that is going on.  Prayers,
Bonnie

Are all of the laws good ones?  No.  This is not a perfect world, unfortunately.  God is a God of order, however, and has set up a system of judges, laws, etc.  It is man that has made it corrupt.  And...I do believe that God ALWAYS has the final say in what is going on.  He just may not choose to intervene all of the time, and lets us run amok to show us our need for Him. 

I don't expect to change anyone's way of thinking on this subject through expressing my opinion.  Each person has his own ideas as to how to interpret God's view of the death penalty.   This is a discussion, and not a fight.  You can't take everyone's views personally.  If you want to truly discuss the matter, you have to hear both sides of the debate with an open mind, and not take offense.  

No, we can see that God is delaying punishment and I don't ever question Him on that.
I don't think we change people's ideas either but I get my answers this way a lot of times.  We all have our reasons for being here.

Trueblue   

Each one of us was under the sentence of death (Romans 6:23).  Each of us deserved the judgment of death before a holy God. 


Are you glad God gave you a reprieve?

Quote from: spurly on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 17:36:04
Each one of us was under the sentence of death (Romans 6:23).  Each of us deserved the judgment of death before a holy God. 


Are you glad God gave you a reprieve?

Profound indeed...manna for you.


(Edited to correct a grammer mistake in the post quoted above).

Quote from: Bonnie on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 09:35:14

Quote from: Gary on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 08:49:10
I have small children.  I am for it. 

Are you saying that having small children makes the Death Penalty law okay with God?

God ordered the Jews to kill those nations (women, children, and all) that stood in the way of Israel, and who would do her harm later.  As a father, I believe I have a sprinkling of understanding of what lengths a father would go to, to protect his children, family, and neighbors/brethren.

I am not always in support of the US Justice system, with some getting false imprisonment, and others getting off on a technicality, but when there is no shadow of a doubt that someone molested a child or brutally killed someone, I think death should be swift and severe.

Quote from: Bonnie on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 09:52:16

Quote from: admin on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 09:10:32
Under the Laws given in the Old Testament, the death penalty was not only permissible but required. That means that at one time at least God not only approved of, but commanded the death penalty for certain actions. In fact, here are some examples of what crimes required the death penalty based on God's Words:

Death Penalty for Murder
Genesis 9:5-6 (Context: Covenant with Noah after the Flood)
Numbers 35:31

Law of the Talion
Exodus 21:22-24, See also Deuteronomy 19:21

Death Penalty for Other Offenses
Death Penalty for Blasphemy Death Penalty for Fornication/Adultery
Leviticus 24:13-23 Deuteronomy 22:21-24, Deuteronomy 20:10

Death Penalty for Rape. Death Penalty for Incest
Deuteronomy 22:25 Leviticus 20:11

Death Penalty for Bestiality. Death Penalty for Disobeying Priests
Leviticus 20:15-16 Deuteronomy 17:12-13

Death Penalty for Theft, for Enslaving Others, For Kidnapping
Deuteronomy 24:7, Exodus 21:16

Death Penalty for Leading Others Astray from Worship of the One True God
Deuteronomy 13:6-11, See also Deuteronomy 17:2-5

Death Penalty for Disobedience to Parents or Striking Parents
Deuteronomy 21:18, 20-21, Exodus 21:15, Exodus 21:17

Death Penalty for Sorcery/Fortune Telling. Death Penalty for Desecrating the Sabbath
Exodus 2:17, Leviticus 20:27 Exodus 35:2

Note also that not all killings are capital crimes
Exodus 21:12, Numbers 35:22, Deuteronomy 19:4-13 (these establish cities of refuge). So it is inaccurate to use the word "murder" for all forced deaths. For example, if someone kills in self defense, it is not murder. If someone kills in military service, it is not murder. If someone breaks into your house and you don't know if they are a threat to your life or not, according to the Bible, it is not murder if you kill them (Exodus 22:2). The Sixth Commandment is "You shall not murder." It is incorrect to translate it as "You shall not kill" because the word is actually "murder" and because God actually commanded certain people to be killed.

I see the death penalty when conducted on people who have killed and would likely kill again to be self defense.

Yes, but we're not living under the Mosiac law in the OT.

Where can we find these other exceptions in the bible?

God bless,
Bonnie

Lets throw out 2 Timothy 3:16-17, and the OT along with it.

Quote from: Bonnie on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 10:02:14

Quote from: Gary on Fri Feb 29, 2008 - 09:06:23
Why must we back up everything with NT Scripture?  I thought II Tim 3:16-17 was scriptural as well.

11 Timothy 3:
16 ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

I don't see a connection.

It means we can't just get rid of the OT by throwing it out as Mosaic Law.  ALL SCRIPTURE, all of God's Word is profitable.

Profitable for what you say?

Doctrine
Reproof
Correction
Rebuke
Instruction