Christian Forums

Quote from: Selene on Thu Dec 02, 2010 - 21:39:33
Did you even bother to read the weblink I provided for you? 

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0043.html   

The above weblinks explains what "No salvation outside the Church" actually means. 

Being Pope for only 33 days, I guess Pope John Paul I misspoke.

QuoteOnly in the Church is salvation. 'Without it one perishes.' (Pope John Paul I, First Allocution, August 27, 1978, L'Osservatore Romano, August 28, 29, 1978.)

Quote from: John 10:10 on Thu Dec 02, 2010 - 21:50:37

Quote from: Selene on Thu Dec 02, 2010 - 21:39:33
Did you even bother to read the weblink I provided for you? 

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0043.html   

The above weblinks explains what "No salvation outside the Church" actually means. 

Being Pope for only 33 days, I guess Pope John Paul I misspoke.

QuoteOnly in the Church is salvation. 'Without it one perishes.' (Pope John Paul I, First Allocution, August 27, 1978, L'Osservatore Romano, August 28, 29, 1978.)

I would never take out of context what the Pope says by only focusing on one sentence.  As you can see from the article that I showed you, "outside the Church there is no salvation" NEVER meant that only Catholics are saved.  But a lot of anti-Catholics twist it around to make it say that.  If a person really wanted to know the truth about the phrase, they should have gone to a Catholic website. 

Quote838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter." Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church." With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."

Quite simply put the Truth that has been officially taught, meaning ordained by an ecumenical counsel, as I have said time and time again, The Mother Church teaches that no matter what denomination those who have professed Christ and been baptised according to the Trinitarian Formula(In the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit) are as far a man can gauge, saved and a member of the Church just not one in full communion with Her.


Stop spreading falsehoods and just accept that the Catholic Church believes what it actually says it believes.

Quote from: Selene on Thu Dec 02, 2010 - 21:59:08

Quote from: John 10:10 on Thu Dec 02, 2010 - 21:50:37

Quote from: Selene on Thu Dec 02, 2010 - 21:39:33
Did you even bother to read the weblink I provided for you? 

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0043.html   

The above weblinks explains what "No salvation outside the Church" actually means. 

Being Pope for only 33 days, I guess Pope John Paul I misspoke.

QuoteOnly in the Church is salvation. 'Without it one perishes.' (Pope John Paul I, First Allocution, August 27, 1978, L'Osservatore Romano, August 28, 29, 1978.)

I would never take out of context what the Pope says by only focusing on one sentence.  As you can see from the article that I showed you, "outside the Church there is no salvation" NEVER meant that only Catholics are saved.  But a lot of anti-Catholics twist it around to make it say that.  If a person really wanted to know the truth about the phrase, they should have gone to a Catholic website. 

According to the logic of Lighthammer,if anyone says someone is not saved,he or she is playing God,quick, better inform Lighthammer that the Pope is playing God.

Quote from: LightHammer on Thu Dec 02, 2010 - 22:35:47

Quote838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter." Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church." With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."

Quite simply put the Truth that has been officially taught, meaning ordained by an ecumenical counsel, as I have said time and time again, The Mother Church teaches that no matter what denomination those who have professed Christ and been baptised according to the Trinitarian Formula(In the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit) are as far a man can gauge, saved and a member of the Church just not one in full communion with Her.


Stop spreading falsehoods and just accept that the Catholic Church believes what it actually says it believes.

Im quite sure that the Catholic church believes what it says it believes.

could you please explain what you men by this comment

saved and a member of the Church just not one in full communion with Her[/b].

Is this another one of the those tricky slicky stamtents. Who is the her in this. The RCC?

Quote from: mclees8 on Fri Dec 03, 2010 - 03:50:08
Im quite sure that the Catholic church believes what it says it believes.

could you please explain what you men by this comment

saved and a member of the Church just not one in full communion with Her[/b].

Is this another one of the those tricky slicky stamtents. Who is the her in this. The RCC?

Oh lookee here.....another one of those one-sentence or half-phrases taken out of context.  Makes you wonder why they stick to things like that and are afraid to publicize the entire article. 

Quote from: tinker on Fri Dec 03, 2010 - 02:56:58

Quote from: Selene on Thu Dec 02, 2010 - 21:59:08

Quote from: John 10:10 on Thu Dec 02, 2010 - 21:50:37

Quote from: Selene on Thu Dec 02, 2010 - 21:39:33
Did you even bother to read the weblink I provided for you? 

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0043.html   

The above weblinks explains what "No salvation outside the Church" actually means. 

Being Pope for only 33 days, I guess Pope John Paul I misspoke.

QuoteOnly in the Church is salvation. 'Without it one perishes.' (Pope John Paul I, First Allocution, August 27, 1978, L'Osservatore Romano, August 28, 29, 1978.)

I would never take out of context what the Pope says by only focusing on one sentence.  As you can see from the article that I showed you, "outside the Church there is no salvation" NEVER meant that only Catholics are saved.  But a lot of anti-Catholics twist it around to make it say that.  If a person really wanted to know the truth about the phrase, they should have gone to a Catholic website. 

According to the logic of Lighthammer,if anyone says someone is not saved,he or she is playing God,quick, better inform Lighthammer that the Pope is playing God.

The pope is simply quoting Jesus and scripture:

John 14:6
6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.


Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

Matthew 16
17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.



Matthew 18
17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Quote from: mclees8 on Fri Dec 03, 2010 - 03:50:08

Im quite sure that the Catholic church believes what it says it believes.

could you please explain what you men by this comment

saved and a member of the Church just not one in full communion with Her[/b].

Is this another one of the those tricky slicky stamtents. Who is the her in this. The RCC?

If I may jump in, I think this passage is quite clear.  A baptized Christian is a member of the Church, but may not be in full communion with the Church.  This applies to Catholics as well as protestants.

Quote from: Selene on Thu Dec 02, 2010 - 21:20:12

Quote from: tinker on Thu Dec 02, 2010 - 21:14:56

Quote from: chestertonrules on Thu Dec 02, 2010 - 07:11:46

Quote from: tinker on Wed Dec 01, 2010 - 21:18:14

Quote from: chestertonrules on Wed Dec 01, 2010 - 08:56:08

Quote from: tinker on Tue Nov 30, 2010 - 21:04:59
Are Roman Catholics saved?  Good site for RC to learn the truth...

http://so4j.com/catholics-are-they-saved.php

You don't care about the Truth.

You keep repeating lies about Catholics.

You reject scripture as well.  For example:

Romans 2
6 God "will repay each person according to what they have done.

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri Dec 03, 2010 - 08:39:38

Quote from: mclees8 on Fri Dec 03, 2010 - 03:50:08

Im quite sure that the Catholic church believes what it says it believes.

could you please explain what you men by this comment

saved and a member of the Church just not one in full communion with Her[/b].

Is this another one of the those tricky slicky stamtents. Who is the her in this. The RCC?

If I may jump in, I think this passage is quite clear.  A baptized Christian is a member of the Church, but may not be in full communion with the Church.  This applies to Catholics as well as protestants.

Could explain then what you believe constitutes  full communion with the church.

One who is complete agreement with the pope and Catholic dogma?

Quote from: Selene on Thu Dec 02, 2010 - 21:59:08

Quote from: John 10:10 on Thu Dec 02, 2010 - 21:50:37

Quote from: Selene on Thu Dec 02, 2010 - 21:39:33
Did you even bother to read the weblink I provided for you?  

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0043.html  

The above weblinks explains what "No salvation outside the Church" actually means.  

Being Pope for only 33 days, I guess Pope John Paul I misspoke.

QuoteOnly in the Church is salvation. 'Without it one perishes.' (Pope John Paul I, First Allocution, August 27, 1978, L'Osservatore Romano, August 28, 29, 1978.)

I would never take out of context what the Pope says by only focusing on one sentence.  As you can see from the article that I showed you, "outside the Church there is no salvation" NEVER meant that only Catholics are saved.  But a lot of anti-Catholics twist it around to make it say that.  If a person really wanted to know the truth about the phrase, they should have gone to a Catholic website.  

Words have precise meanings, and the words of all the Popes before 1965 and at least two Popes afterword clearly said "No salvation outside the Church."  The web site/article you referred me to is an exercise in how words mean something other than what they say, and in my opinion is nothing more than damage control by those who came after all the Popes who said otherwise.

Quote from: John 10:10 on Fri Dec 03, 2010 - 10:19:22
Words have precise meanings, and the words of all the Popes before 1965 and at least two Popes afterword clearly said "No salvation outside the Church."  The web site/article you referred me to is an exercise in how words mean something other than what they say, and in my opinion is nothing more than damage control by those who came after all the Popes who said otherwise.

The website I referred you to is a Catholic website explaining what it ACTUALLY means.  It was Catholics who use this phrase and only Catholics can interpret what it truely means when translated from the Latin to the English language. Now, let's take a closer look at that statement that you posted of the Pope.  

Only in the Church is salvation. 'Without it one perishes.' (Pope John Paul I, First Allocution, August 27, 1978, L'Osservatore Romano, August 28, 29, 1978.)

Below is a weblink of the ENTIRE SPEECH from Pope John Paul I, from which this one sentence was taken out.  As you can see, the Pope was quoting from St. Augustine and interpreted what St. Augustine was saying.  I provided the weblink below so you can read the entire speech yourself.  

According to the words of St Augustine, an image dear to the ancient Fathers of the
Church, the ship of the Church must not fear, because it is guided by Christ and by
his Vicar: "Although the ship is tossed about, it is still a ship. It carries the disciples
and it receives Christ. Yes, it is tossed on the sea but without it, one would
immediately perish" (Sermon 75,3; PL 38,475). Only in the Church is salvation:
without it one perishes!

http://www.lumenchristischool.org/files/PROGRAMMEOFPOPEJOHNPAULI.pdf

OKAY....so now, why do you think they left out the part in the speech where the Pope was quoting St. Augustine who said "Yes, it is tossed on the sea but without it, one would immediately perish?"  The ship that St. Augustine was referring to that carried the disciples was the Church.  NOW, why do you think they left out that part?  Simple.  They left it out on purpose because they did not want YOU to find out that the Pope was referring to a quote of St. Augustine.  If you had just read his entire speech instead of taking one sentence out from it, then you would have understood the whole message.   

 

 

Quote from: tinker on Fri Dec 03, 2010 - 09:34:15

Quote from: Selene on Thu Dec 02, 2010 - 21:20:12

Quote from: tinker on Thu Dec 02, 2010 - 21:14:56

Quote from: chestertonrules on Thu Dec 02, 2010 - 07:11:46

Quote from: tinker on Wed Dec 01, 2010 - 21:18:14

Quote from: chestertonrules on Wed Dec 01, 2010 - 08:56:08

Quote from: tinker on Tue Nov 30, 2010 - 21:04:59
Are Roman Catholics saved?  Good site for RC to learn the truth...

http://so4j.com/catholics-are-they-saved.php

You don't care about the Truth.

You keep repeating lies about Catholics.

You reject scripture as well.  For example:

Romans 2
6 God "will repay each person according to what they have done.

Quote from: tinker on Thu Dec 02, 2010 - 21:14:56

You mean to tell me that the Pope is always correct?
You mean to tell everyone that the Pope never lied?
You mean that if a person carry out the 7 sacraments he will be saved even by disregarding the 10 commandments?
You mean that if only one sacrament is broken,one will not be saved?
You mean everyone should thrown their Bibles away and listen to every word from the vatican?

Popes are not always correct and that is not what the Church teaches.  Your distortions continue unabated!

Popes are sinners like everyone else. 

A person who confesses their sins will be forgiven.  Everyone sins.

The Church does not teach that breaking a single sacrament leads to hell.

You post silly evasions in order to avoid the Truth.

Quote from: mclees8 on Fri Dec 03, 2010 - 10:07:33

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri Dec 03, 2010 - 08:39:38

Quote from: mclees8 on Fri Dec 03, 2010 - 03:50:08

Im quite sure that the Catholic church believes what it says it believes.

could you please explain what you men by this comment

saved and a member of the Church just not one in full communion with Her[/b].

Is this another one of the those tricky slicky stamtents. Who is the her in this. The RCC?

If I may jump in, I think this passage is quite clear.  A baptized Christian is a member of the Church, but may not be in full communion with the Church.  This applies to Catholics as well as protestants.

Could explain then what you believe constitutes  full communion with the church.

One who is complete agreement with the pope and Catholic dogma?

One who obeys Church teaching as communicated by Jesus through the apostles and their successors.

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri Dec 03, 2010 - 22:39:06

Quote from: mclees8 on Fri Dec 03, 2010 - 10:07:33

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri Dec 03, 2010 - 08:39:38

Quote from: mclees8 on Fri Dec 03, 2010 - 03:50:08

Im quite sure that the Catholic church believes what it says it believes.

could you please explain what you men by this comment

saved and a member of the Church just not one in full communion with Her[/b].

Is this another one of the those tricky slicky stamtents. Who is the her in this. The RCC?

If I may jump in, I think this passage is quite clear.  A baptized Christian is a member of the Church, but may not be in full communion with the Church.  This applies to Catholics as well as protestants.

Could explain then what you believe constitutes  full communion with the church.

One who is complete agreement with the pope and Catholic dogma?

One who obeys Church teaching as communicated by Jesus through the apostles and their successors.

  Then as long as their teaching is consistent with what Christ and the apostles taught then you are in communion with Christ  Not his successors. Do you think an authority can profess what Christ taught yet not be in true communion with Him.
Can they be a pseudo authority. One that professes to be of Christ yet is really in communion with the world?

Quote from: Selene on Fri Dec 03, 2010 - 16:45:50

Quote from: John 10:10 on Fri Dec 03, 2010 - 10:19:22
Words have precise meanings, and the words of all the Popes before 1965 and at least two Popes afterword clearly said "No salvation outside the Church."  The web site/article you referred me to is an exercise in how words mean something other than what they say, and in my opinion is nothing more than damage control by those who came after all the Popes who said otherwise.

The website I referred you to is a Catholic website explaining what it ACTUALLY means.  It was Catholics who use this phrase and only Catholics can interpret what it truely means when translated from the Latin to the English language. Now, let's take a closer look at that statement that you posted of the Pope.  

Only in the Church is salvation. 'Without it one perishes.' (Pope John Paul I, First Allocution, August 27, 1978, L'Osservatore Romano, August 28, 29, 1978.)

Below is a weblink of the ENTIRE SPEECH from Pope John Paul I, from which this one sentence was taken out.  As you can see, the Pope was quoting from St. Augustine and interpreted what St. Augustine was saying.  I provided the weblink below so you can read the entire speech yourself.  

According to the words of St Augustine, an image dear to the ancient Fathers of the
Church, the ship of the Church must not fear, because it is guided by Christ and by
his Vicar: "Although the ship is tossed about, it is still a ship. It carries the disciples
and it receives Christ. Yes, it is tossed on the sea but without it, one would
immediately perish" (Sermon 75,3; PL 38,475). Only in the Church is salvation:
without it one perishes!

http://www.lumenchristischool.org/files/PROGRAMMEOFPOPEJOHNPAULI.pdf

OKAY....so now, why do you think they left out the part in the speech where the Pope was quoting St. Augustine who said "Yes, it is tossed on the sea but without it, one would immediately perish?"  The ship that St. Augustine was referring to that carried the disciples was the Church.  NOW, why do you think they left out that part?  Simple.  They left it out on purpose because they did not want YOU to find out that the Pope was referring to a quote of St. Augustine.  If you had just read his entire speech instead of taking one sentence out from it, then you would have understood the whole message.   

Then what happens when the boat is shanghaied and is no longer truly guided of Christ but  his vicar takes a wrong course?

Quote from: LightHammer on Fri Dec 03, 2010 - 17:35:53

Quote from: tinker on Fri Dec 03, 2010 - 09:34:15

Quote from: Selene on Thu Dec 02, 2010 - 21:20:12

Quote from: tinker on Thu Dec 02, 2010 - 21:14:56

Quote from: chestertonrules on Thu Dec 02, 2010 - 07:11:46

Quote from: tinker on Wed Dec 01, 2010 - 21:18:14

Quote from: chestertonrules on Wed Dec 01, 2010 - 08:56:08

Quote from: tinker on Tue Nov 30, 2010 - 21:04:59
Are Roman Catholics saved?  Good site for RC to learn the truth...

http://so4j.com/catholics-are-they-saved.php

You don't care about the Truth.

You keep repeating lies about Catholics.

You reject scripture as well.  For example:

Romans 2
6 God "will repay each person according to what they have done.

Quote from: mclees8 on Sat Dec 04, 2010 - 01:55:10

Quote from: Selene on Fri Dec 03, 2010 - 16:45:50

Quote from: John 10:10 on Fri Dec 03, 2010 - 10:19:22
Words have precise meanings, and the words of all the Popes before 1965 and at least two Popes afterword clearly said "No salvation outside the Church."  The web site/article you referred me to is an exercise in how words mean something other than what they say, and in my opinion is nothing more than damage control by those who came after all the Popes who said otherwise.

The website I referred you to is a Catholic website explaining what it ACTUALLY means.  It was Catholics who use this phrase and only Catholics can interpret what it truely means when translated from the Latin to the English language. Now, let's take a closer look at that statement that you posted of the Pope.  

Only in the Church is salvation. 'Without it one perishes.' (Pope John Paul I, First Allocution, August 27, 1978, L'Osservatore Romano, August 28, 29, 1978.)

Below is a weblink of the ENTIRE SPEECH from Pope John Paul I, from which this one sentence was taken out.  As you can see, the Pope was quoting from St. Augustine and interpreted what St. Augustine was saying.  I provided the weblink below so you can read the entire speech yourself.  

According to the words of St Augustine, an image dear to the ancient Fathers of the
Church, the ship of the Church must not fear, because it is guided by Christ and by
his Vicar: "Although the ship is tossed about, it is still a ship. It carries the disciples
and it receives Christ. Yes, it is tossed on the sea but without it, one would
immediately perish" (Sermon 75,3; PL 38,475). Only in the Church is salvation:
without it one perishes!

http://www.lumenchristischool.org/files/PROGRAMMEOFPOPEJOHNPAULI.pdf

OKAY....so now, why do you think they left out the part in the speech where the Pope was quoting St. Augustine who said "Yes, it is tossed on the sea but without it, one would immediately perish?"  The ship that St. Augustine was referring to that carried the disciples was the Church.  NOW, why do you think they left out that part?  Simple.  They left it out on purpose because they did not want YOU to find out that the Pope was referring to a quote of St. Augustine.  If you had just read his entire speech instead of taking one sentence out from it, then you would have understood the whole message.   

Then what happens when the boat is shanghaied and is no longer truly guided of Christ but  his vicar takes a wrong course?

What was the point I was making? 

Quote from: tinker on Sat Dec 04, 2010 - 04:29:08

Quote from: LightHammer on Fri Dec 03, 2010 - 17:35:53

Quote from: tinker on Fri Dec 03, 2010 - 09:34:15

Quote from: Selene on Thu Dec 02, 2010 - 21:20:12

Quote from: tinker on Thu Dec 02, 2010 - 21:14:56

Quote from: chestertonrules on Thu Dec 02, 2010 - 07:11:46

Quote from: tinker on Wed Dec 01, 2010 - 21:18:14

Quote from: chestertonrules on Wed Dec 01, 2010 - 08:56:08

Quote from: tinker on Tue Nov 30, 2010 - 21:04:59
Are Roman Catholics saved?  Good site for RC to learn the truth...

http://so4j.com/catholics-are-they-saved.php

You don't care about the Truth.

You keep repeating lies about Catholics.

You reject scripture as well.  For example:

Romans 2
6 God "will repay each person according to what they have done.

Quote from: Selene on Sat Dec 04, 2010 - 07:25:29

Quote from: mclees8 on Sat Dec 04, 2010 - 01:55:10

Quote from: Selene on Fri Dec 03, 2010 - 16:45:50

Quote from: John 10:10 on Fri Dec 03, 2010 - 10:19:22
Words have precise meanings, and the words of all the Popes before 1965 and at least two Popes afterword clearly said "No salvation outside the Church."  The web site/article you referred me to is an exercise in how words mean something other than what they say, and in my opinion is nothing more than damage control by those who came after all the Popes who said otherwise.

The website I referred you to is a Catholic website explaining what it ACTUALLY means.  It was Catholics who use this phrase and only Catholics can interpret what it truely means when translated from the Latin to the English language. Now, let's take a closer look at that statement that you posted of the Pope.  

Only in the Church is salvation. 'Without it one perishes.' (Pope John Paul I, First Allocution, August 27, 1978, L'Osservatore Romano, August 28, 29, 1978.)

Below is a weblink of the ENTIRE SPEECH from Pope John Paul I, from which this one sentence was taken out.  As you can see, the Pope was quoting from St. Augustine and interpreted what St. Augustine was saying.  I provided the weblink below so you can read the entire speech yourself.  

According to the words of St Augustine, an image dear to the ancient Fathers of the
Church, the ship of the Church must not fear, because it is guided by Christ and by
his Vicar: "Although the ship is tossed about, it is still a ship. It carries the disciples
and it receives Christ. Yes, it is tossed on the sea but without it, one would
immediately perish" (Sermon 75,3; PL 38,475). Only in the Church is salvation:
without it one perishes!

http://www.lumenchristischool.org/files/PROGRAMMEOFPOPEJOHNPAULI.pdf

OKAY....so now, why do you think they left out the part in the speech where the Pope was quoting St. Augustine who said "Yes, it is tossed on the sea but without it, one would immediately perish?"  The ship that St. Augustine was referring to that carried the disciples was the Church.  NOW, why do you think they left out that part?  Simple.  They left it out on purpose because they did not want YOU to find out that the Pope was referring to a quote of St. Augustine.  If you had just read his entire speech instead of taking one sentence out from it, then you would have understood the whole message.   

Then what happens when the boat is shanghaied and is no longer truly guided of Christ but  his vicar takes a wrong course?

What was the point I was making? 

Yes i know we are discussing salvation outside the church and you believe we lose true context because of leaving out certain things when the pope speaks.  Like quoting St Augustine which was stated in 475 AD. What i question is, is that who is  really guiding the  church (ship) in 475 AD. He said Christ and his vicar. He may have believed that when he made the statement and that maybe what the popes want you to believe or they might believe they are still being at the helm with Christ but when they became a religious political entity ruling the empire Christ was no longer at the helm of the church but the popes who only think Jesus is with them. However Gods word still is a light for his people and if we put more trust in it then men and popes we will stay on course with Jesus.Salvation is in Him and he is truly at the helm of his ship. But if you want to say salvation is only in the church that is true but maybe being twisted some.


I just looking at  what you posted about what  Augustine said. If i am correct the statement by St Augustine was made in 4

Quote from: mclees8 on Sat Dec 04, 2010 - 14:01:38
Yes i know we are discussing salvation outside the church and you believe we lose true context because of leaving out certain things when the pope speaks.  Like quoting St Augustine which was stated in 475 AD. What i question is, is that who is  really guiding the  church (ship) in 475 AD. He said Christ and his vicar. He may have believed that when he made the statement and that maybe what the popes want you to believe or they might believe they are still being at the helm with Christ but when they became a religious political entity ruling the empire Christ was no longer at the helm of the church but the popes who only think Jesus is with them. However Gods word still is a light for his people and if we put more trust in it then men and popes we will stay on course with Jesus.Salvation is in Him and he is truly at the helm of his ship. But if you want to say salvation is only in the church that is true but maybe being twisted some.


I just looking at  what you posted about what  Augustine said. If i am correct the statement by St Augustine was made in 4

Mike, the whole point of my post was to show what the Anti-Catholics did when they took the Pope's words out of context.  That's the point.  And then you ask "what happens when the boat is shangaied???  Christ told His Church that He would be with them until the end of world (See Matthew 28:20).  Do you think He lied? 

Quote from: Selene on Sat Dec 04, 2010 - 15:50:23

Quote from: mclees8 on Sat Dec 04, 2010 - 14:01:38
Yes i know we are discussing salvation outside the church and you believe we lose true context because of leaving out certain things when the pope speaks.  Like quoting St Augustine which was stated in 475 AD. What i question is, is that who is  really guiding the  church (ship) in 475 AD. He said Christ and his vicar. He may have believed that when he made the statement and that maybe what the popes want you to believe or they might believe they are still being at the helm with Christ but when they became a religious political entity ruling the empire Christ was no longer at the helm of the church but the popes who only think Jesus is with them. However Gods word still is a light for his people and if we put more trust in it then men and popes we will stay on course with Jesus.Salvation is in Him and he is truly at the helm of his ship. But if you want to say salvation is only in the church that is true but maybe being twisted some.


I just looking at  what you posted about what  Augustine said. If i am correct the statement by St Augustine was made in 4

Mike, the whole point of my post was to show what the Anti-Catholics did when they took the Pope's words out of context.  That's the point.  And then you ask "what happens when the boat is shangaied???  Christ told His Church that He would be with them until the end of world (See Matthew 28:20).  Do you think He lied? 

Sorry Selene guess i just have a one track mind. You see I don't believe the papacy was the ship that Jesus was at the helm but it was at the helm of there own ship. A ship full of self ambition and lust for power religiously and politically.

Jesus did not lie when he said he would be with his church always but the church was not always with Him   

A funny thing always comes to my mind That Catholics never consider. In scripture there is not one mention or prophesy from Christ that his church was to be the religious political church of the Roman Empire after five centuries One would think anything of that magnitude would certainly bore mention by the Lord.

But there was one prophesy that foretold of a religious political church that was called the great harlot  makes  one kinda  wonder don't it ?

Quote from: mclees8 on Sat Dec 04, 2010 - 17:17:44
A funny thing always comes to my mind That Catholics never consider. In scripture there is not one mention or prophesy from Christ that his church was to be the religious political church of the Roman Empire after five centuries One would think anything of that magnitude would certainly bore mention by the Lord.

But there was one prophesy that foretold of a religious political church that was called the great harlot  makes  one kinda  wonder don't it ?

Not it was clearly Rome.

Quote from: mclees8 on Sat Dec 04, 2010 - 17:17:44
A funny thing always comes to my mind That Catholics never consider. In scripture there is not one mention or prophesy from Christ that his church was to be the religious political church of the Roman Empire after five centuries One would think anything of that magnitude would certainly bore mention by the Lord.

But there was one prophesy that foretold of a religious political church that was called the great harlot  makes  one kinda  wonder don't it ?

Vatican City did not exist as a political entity then; therefore, the Harlot was not the Catholic Church.  In fact, the harlot wasn't even a church. 

Quote from: Selene on Sat Dec 04, 2010 - 21:28:44

Quote from: mclees8 on Sat Dec 04, 2010 - 17:17:44
A funny thing always comes to my mind That Catholics never consider. In scripture there is not one mention or prophesy from Christ that his church was to be the religious political church of the Roman Empire after five centuries One would think anything of that magnitude would certainly bore mention by the Lord.

But there was one prophesy that foretold of a religious political church that was called the great harlot  makes  one kinda  wonder don't it ?

Vatican City did not exist as a political entity then; therefore, the Harlot was not the Catholic Church.  In fact, the harlot wasn't even a church. 

Well Selene I see we have much to talk about. However Ive been in these kinds of denial debates before. The Vatican is up to its neck with the political landscape even today and has been since its beginning, and I am not talking about the beginning of Christ church but the papacy after the fifth century.  I find it hard to believe you don't see this. Even you fellow Catholics know this.

Why don't we begin with why you think the Vatican is not politically involved with the world. You are quote wrong that the harlot was not a church, and not just any church, but one that was Christian. If you have a large concordance you might look up the word Harlot and see how many times it is used in reference of the children of Israel and their unfaithfulness. When I come back we will talk about it.

God bless 

Quote from: mclees8 on Sat Dec 04, 2010 - 01:46:44

Quote from: chestertonrules on Fri Dec 03, 2010 - 22:39:06

Quote from: mclees8 on Fri Dec 03, 2010 - 10:07:33


  Then as long as their teaching is consistent with what Christ and the apostles taught then you are in communion with Christ  Not his successors. Do you think an authority can profess what Christ taught yet not be in true communion with Him.
Can they be a pseudo authority. One that professes to be of Christ yet is really in communion with the world?

I believe that many who claim authority are not in full communion with Christ.  This is inevitable when a person rejects the authority established by Christ.

Quote from: mclees8 on Sat Dec 04, 2010 - 17:17:44

But there was one prophesy that foretold of a religious political church that was called the great harlot  makes  one kinda  wonder don't it ?

The Church was always a separate entity from the Roman Empire.  That's why the Church continued to grow and thrive when the empire was destroyed.

Quote from: Selene on Fri Dec 03, 2010 - 16:45:50

Quote from: John 10:10 on Fri Dec 03, 2010 - 10:19:22
Words have precise meanings, and the words of all the Popes before 1965 and at least two Popes afterword clearly said "No salvation outside the Church."  The web site/article you referred me to is an exercise in how words mean something other than what they say, and in my opinion is nothing more than damage control by those who came after all the Popes who said otherwise.

The website I referred you to is a Catholic website explaining what it ACTUALLY means.  It was Catholics who use this phrase and only Catholics can interpret what it truely means when translated from the Latin to the English language. Now, let's take a closer look at that statement that you posted of the Pope.  

Only in the Church is salvation. 'Without it one perishes.' (Pope John Paul I, First Allocution, August 27, 1978, L'Osservatore Romano, August 28, 29, 1978.)

Below is a weblink of the ENTIRE SPEECH from Pope John Paul I, from which this one sentence was taken out.  As you can see, the Pope was quoting from St. Augustine and interpreted what St. Augustine was saying.  I provided the weblink below so you can read the entire speech yourself.  

According to the words of St Augustine, an image dear to the ancient Fathers of the
Church, the ship of the Church must not fear, because it is guided by Christ and by
his Vicar: "Although the ship is tossed about, it is still a ship. It carries the disciples
and it receives Christ. Yes, it is tossed on the sea but without it, one would
immediately perish" (Sermon 75,3; PL 38,475). Only in the Church is salvation:
without it one perishes!

http://www.lumenchristischool.org/files/PROGRAMMEOFPOPEJOHNPAULI.pdf

OKAY....so now, why do you think they left out the part in the speech where the Pope was quoting St. Augustine who said "Yes, it is tossed on the sea but without it, one would immediately perish?"  The ship that St. Augustine was referring to that carried the disciples was the Church.  NOW, why do you think they left out that part?  Simple.  They left it out on purpose because they did not want YOU to find out that the Pope was referring to a quote of St. Augustine.  If you had just read his entire speech instead of taking one sentence out from it, then you would have understood the whole message.   

Now that we understand what Pope John Paul I & II really meant, maybe you can explain what all the other Popes meant who said the same thing in more clearer words before 1965?

Quote from: mclees8 on Sat Dec 04, 2010 - 01:46:44


  Then as long as their teaching is consistent with what Christ and the apostles taught then you are in communion with Christ  Not his successors. Do you think an authority can profess what Christ taught yet not be in true communion with Him.
Can they be a pseudo authority. One that professes to be of Christ yet is really in communion with the world?

I agree.  Most Christians in the world are Catholic.  Some are not Catholic.  Those who are not Catholic don't follow the teachings of the apostles in all matters of faith and morals.

Quote from: John 10:10 on Sun Dec 05, 2010 - 17:38:56

Quote from: Selene on Fri Dec 03, 2010 - 16:45:50

Quote from: John 10:10 on Fri Dec 03, 2010 - 10:19:22
Words have precise meanings, and the words of all the Popes before 1965 and at least two Popes afterword clearly said "No salvation outside the Church."  The web site/article you referred me to is an exercise in how words mean something other than what they say, and in my opinion is nothing more than damage control by those who came after all the Popes who said otherwise.

The website I referred you to is a Catholic website explaining what it ACTUALLY means.  It was Catholics who use this phrase and only Catholics can interpret what it truely means when translated from the Latin to the English language. Now, let's take a closer look at that statement that you posted of the Pope.  

Only in the Church is salvation. 'Without it one perishes.' (Pope John Paul I, First Allocution, August 27, 1978, L'Osservatore Romano, August 28, 29, 1978.)

Below is a weblink of the ENTIRE SPEECH from Pope John Paul I, from which this one sentence was taken out.  As you can see, the Pope was quoting from St. Augustine and interpreted what St. Augustine was saying.  I provided the weblink below so you can read the entire speech yourself.  

According to the words of St Augustine, an image dear to the ancient Fathers of the
Church, the ship of the Church must not fear, because it is guided by Christ and by
his Vicar: "Although the ship is tossed about, it is still a ship. It carries the disciples
and it receives Christ. Yes, it is tossed on the sea but without it, one would
immediately perish" (Sermon 75,3; PL 38,475). Only in the Church is salvation:
without it one perishes!

http://www.lumenchristischool.org/files/PROGRAMMEOFPOPEJOHNPAULI.pdf

OKAY....so now, why do you think they left out the part in the speech where the Pope was quoting St. Augustine who said "Yes, it is tossed on the sea but without it, one would immediately perish?"  The ship that St. Augustine was referring to that carried the disciples was the Church.  NOW, why do you think they left out that part?  Simple.  They left it out on purpose because they did not want YOU to find out that the Pope was referring to a quote of St. Augustine.  If you had just read his entire speech instead of taking one sentence out from it, then you would have understood the whole message.   

Now that we understand what Pope John Paul I & II really meant, maybe you can explain what all the other Popes meant who said the same thing in more clearer words before 1965?

Quote them in their proper contexts and I'm sure Chester would be more than happy to address them.

Quote from: John 10:10 on Sun Dec 05, 2010 - 17:38:56

Quote from: Selene on Fri Dec 03, 2010 - 16:45:50

Quote from: John 10:10 on Fri Dec 03, 2010 - 10:19:22
Words have precise meanings, and the words of all the Popes before 1965 and at least two Popes afterword clearly said "No salvation outside the Church."  The web site/article you referred me to is an exercise in how words mean something other than what they say, and in my opinion is nothing more than damage control by those who came after all the Popes who said otherwise.

The website I referred you to is a Catholic website explaining what it ACTUALLY means.  It was Catholics who use this phrase and only Catholics can interpret what it truely means when translated from the Latin to the English language. Now, let's take a closer look at that statement that you posted of the Pope.  

Only in the Church is salvation. 'Without it one perishes.' (Pope John Paul I, First Allocution, August 27, 1978, L'Osservatore Romano, August 28, 29, 1978.)

Below is a weblink of the ENTIRE SPEECH from Pope John Paul I, from which this one sentence was taken out.  As you can see, the Pope was quoting from St. Augustine and interpreted what St. Augustine was saying.  I provided the weblink below so you can read the entire speech yourself.  

According to the words of St Augustine, an image dear to the ancient Fathers of the
Church, the ship of the Church must not fear, because it is guided by Christ and by
his Vicar: "Although the ship is tossed about, it is still a ship. It carries the disciples
and it receives Christ. Yes, it is tossed on the sea but without it, one would
immediately perish" (Sermon 75,3; PL 38,475). Only in the Church is salvation:
without it one perishes!

http://www.lumenchristischool.org/files/PROGRAMMEOFPOPEJOHNPAULI.pdf

OKAY....so now, why do you think they left out the part in the speech where the Pope was quoting St. Augustine who said "Yes, it is tossed on the sea but without it, one would immediately perish?"  The ship that St. Augustine was referring to that carried the disciples was the Church.  NOW, why do you think they left out that part?  Simple.  They left it out on purpose because they did not want YOU to find out that the Pope was referring to a quote of St. Augustine.  If you had just read his entire speech instead of taking one sentence out from it, then you would have understood the whole message.   

Now that we understand what Pope John Paul I & II really meant, maybe you can explain what all the other Popes meant who said the same thing in more clearer words before 1965?

For example?

How about we start with this Chesterton

Pope blesses U.N. flag, calls for "binding international rules

Quote from: mclees8 on Sun Dec 05, 2010 - 18:15:40

How about we start with this Chesterton

Pope blesses U.N. flag, calls for "binding international rules