Creation scientists

[4WD]

If you do not think that God could do either then it is you who needs to check your scriptures.

I don't know if you addressed that to Amo or to me.  If to me, then I would answer, that I think God could certainly do both; but I do not think He did either.  My reasoning is that God's general (not the special written) revelation says pretty clearly that He didn't do either.  And God's general revelation is no less true than His special written revelation.  Of course, my interpretation, like everyone else's interpretation, could be wrong on either or both of God's revelations.

[Amo]

I don't know if you addressed that to Amo or to me.  If to me, then I would answer, that I think God could certainly do both; but I do not think He did either.  My reasoning is that God's general (not the special written) revelation says pretty clearly that He didn't do either.  And God's general revelation is no less true than His special written revelation.  Of course, my interpretation, like everyone else's interpretation, could be wrong on either or both of God's revelations.

Not quite sure either. Might have misunderstood from the beginning. Don't know. Guess I'll just leave it alone since Rella has decided to bow out.

[DaveW]

Plain old common sense would tell you that is pure garbage.  Seriously, that is so bad it would be a joke to any rational thinking person.

You might as well throw out the rest of the bible as well.

Tell me, do ANY of these biblical incidents make "common sense" to any " rational thinking person?"

Snake talking to Eve in the garden
Donkey talking to Baalam
Red sea opening up to allow about 5 million people to walk across on dry ground
Sun standing still for 24 hours (or more)
An iron axe head floating on water
Any of the dozens of miracles performed by Our Lord
Resurrection from death of Our Lord

[DaveW]

Not at all, but I also believe in the science that was put into place when God created the universe.  It was not gibberish that God said that "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.".

There is a very different take on that: 

All of creation seems to have a voice of some kind that is used to glorify our God.  The Psalms and Prophets of Israel say that trees, oceans, and rocks declare God's glory.  I take that literally. 

And our Lord said that if the children were quiet, the rocks themselves would cry out. I do not see how to take that metaphorically.

BTW, in Romans 8 Paul says that all of creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth, awaiting the revelation of the Sons of God.  Again, not metaphorical.

[4WD]

Creation

From the Greek word κτίσις [ktisis] meaning  (from Strong's) original formation (properly the act; by implication the thing, literally or figuratively): - building, creation, creature, ordinance.Just as in Mark 16:15 the meaning, I think, is clearly the creature of creation.  In this case as in Mark 16:15 the best interpretation is human beings.

The idea of brute creation groaning and suffering pains of anything seems to me to be a bit silly.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with God's brute creation.  Otherwise how could God declare that  "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork."  It is operating precisely as he created it to do.  That Romans 8 is speaking about human beings generally is made clear in verse 23 which says not only just regular human beings but " we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies."

[Amo]

Creation

From the Greek word κτίσις [ktisis] meaning  (from Strong's) original formation (properly the act; by implication the thing, literally or figuratively): - building, creation, creature, ordinance.Just as in Mark 16:15 the meaning, I think, is clearly the creature of creation.  In this case as in Mark 16:15 the best interpretation is human beings.

The idea of brute creation groaning and suffering pains of anything seems to me to be a bit silly.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with God's brute creation.  Otherwise how could God declare that  "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork."  It is operating precisely as he created it to do.  That Romans 8 is speaking about human beings generally is made clear in verse 23 which says not only just regular human beings but " we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies."

Yes, you seem to think a whole lot of scripture is just silly. If you will acknowledge them at all.

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. 16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Isa 51:6  Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

Jer 4:22  or my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge. 23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. 24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. 25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. 26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. 27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. 28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Are you not among the willingly ignorant described above? Yes you are. This world and everything in it has and does suffer since the fall. God Himself will destroy and end it when He destroys and ends all pain and suffering, and all which causes the same.

[4WD]

This world and everything in it has and does suffer since the fall.

Give us an example of something besides man that has suffered and does suffer since the fall.

[4WD]

Yes, you seem to think a whole lot of scripture is just silly.

You are so bad.  Show me once where I ever said that any, let alone a whole lot of, Scripture is silly.

[4WD]

BTW, in Romans 8 Paul says that all of creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth, awaiting the revelation of the Sons of God.  Again, not metaphorical.

I didn't say it was metaphorical.  I think it is poorly translated in most English translations.

But please give me an example of how you might think, not metaphorically, any of the brute creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth.

[Amo]

Give us an example of something besides man that has suffered and does suffer since the fall.

Turn on the news. Read the histories of this world. You claim to know what is going on within black holes, but obviously have no clue of what is and has been going on in this world all around you. Your willful ignorance concerning God's word and that which the Apostle Peter pointed out, has now lead you to the denial of what takes place right in front of your face every day. If you would care enough to look honestly at that which contradicts your precious deep time narrative.

All pain and suffering are since the fall. You simply do not believe scripture, neither therefore do you believe or apparently even know or understand suffering. You think death and suffering are the natural course of our existence and development via deep time evolution. Casting scripture aside, your faith is in the so called sciences of fallen humanity. If you cannot see the pain and suffering of this worlds past and present it is because of this chosen blindness and ignorance on your part. As the scriptures state. So be it.

Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

You do not know or agree with the above, because you are not among the we, being addressed. The we being those whose faith is in the holy scriptures of God, above the "sciences" so called, of this world.

[4WD]

You might as well throw out the rest of the bible as well.

Tell me, do ANY of these biblical incidents make "common sense" to any " rational thinking person?"

Snake talking to Eve in the garden
Donkey talking to Baalam
Red sea opening up to allow about 5 million people to walk across on dry ground
Sun standing still for 24 hours (or more)
An iron axe head floating on water
Any of the dozens of miracles performed by Our Lord
Resurrection from death of Our Lord

DaveW, do you have any scientific evidence that says that those things didn't happen?  I think you and others have a very confused notion or concept about anything scientific.  There is nothing in science that precludes miracles.

I will make one comment about those things you listed.  We do know that the description of the Sun standing still is not what actually happened; simply because we know that even if that actually happened, it would not have produced God's desired effect.  It is not actual motion of the sun that determines day from night; rather it is the motion of the earth with determines that.  But then those to whom this was first written didn't know and understand that.

[4WD]

You do not know or agree with the above, because you are not among the we, being addressed. The we being those whose faith is in the holy scriptures of God, above the "sciences" so called, of this world.

Amo, you have just made an accusation about me that I am quite certain is against the rules of this forum.  This is not the first time.  If you do it again.  I will report you to a moderator.

[4WD]

Turn on the news. Read the histories of this world. You claim to know what is going on within black holes, but obviously have no clue of what is and has been going on in this world all around you. Your willful ignorance concerning God's word and that which the Apostle Peter pointed out, has now lead you to the denial of what takes place right in front of your face every day. If you would care enough to look honestly at that which contradicts your precious deep time narrative.

All pain and suffering are since the fall. You simply do not believe scripture, neither therefore do you believe or apparently even know or understand suffering. You think death and suffering are the natural course of our existence and development via deep time evolution. Casting scripture aside, your faith is in the so called sciences of fallen humanity. If you cannot see the pain and suffering of this worlds past and present it is because of this chosen blindness and ignorance on your part. As the scriptures state. So be it.

Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

You do not know or agree with the above, because you are not among the we, being addressed. The we being those whose faith is in the holy scriptures of God, above the "sciences" so called, of this world.

All that malignant verbiage and you didn't and couldn't even do the simple thing that I asked.  The interesting thing here is that I could have done that for you even if I would take issue with it.

[Amo]

Amo, you have just made an accusation about me that I am quite certain is against the rules of this forum.  This is not the first time.  If you do it again.  I will report you to a moderator.

Apparently you already have. I stand by the facts of the statement. You reject the biblical creation and flood accounts, as well as the plain and conclusive statement of the fourth commandment of God, as well as Pauls statement concerning those who understand the true condition of this earth. As such you are not of the we he was speaking of in the verse being discussed. As you routinely reject candor ignore all scripture that does to fit your chosen narratives. I will not forsake the truth for the sake of unity, or a place on these boards. So be it. Let the moderators do as they will. They have their job, and I will harbor no ill for whatever decision they make.

[4WD]

No, I did not report you to the moderators.  As I have told you again and again, I do not reject the biblical accounts of creation, of the flood or anything that Paul had to say about such things; however, I do reject your interpretation of such accounts. And I take issue with the fact that you are unable to accept that and instead respond with your sophomoric accusations of unfaithfulness to the Word of God.

[Amo]

No, I did not report you to the moderators.  As I have told you again and again, I do not reject the biblical accounts of creation, of the flood or anything that Paul had to say about such things; however, I do reject your interpretation of such accounts. And I take issue with the fact that you are unable to accept that and instead respond with your sophomoric accusations of unfaithfulness to the Word of God.

Same old, same old. Let us look at the verse under question. I'll give my interpretation and why interpret it that way, then you give yours. Thank you.

Rom 8:22  For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

I take the above to mean that the whole creation groaners and travaileth in pain together, as my interpretation because well. that is what it says. Apart from this, I see the pain and suffering that goes on all over the world. Pain in bringing life into the world, pain in dying, and a lot of pain all in between. The evidence is quite frankly endless. I can start posting videos daily, recording the pain and suffering in this world today and continue to my death no doubt, easily. This is why I interpret the verse the way I do.

So why do you interpret the above verse to mean I suppose, that the whole creation does not "groaneth and travaileth in pain", as you have stated? You said -

The idea of brute creation groaning and suffering pains of anything seems to me to be a bit silly.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with God's brute creation.

How does the above statement not directly contradict Paul's quoted statement? Why would you consider yourself one of the we Paul is referring to in the verses under examination, when you do nat agree at all with what Paul said  those we know and understand? Please do expound.

[4WD]

Same old, same old. Let us look at the verse under question. I'll give my interpretation and why interpret it that way, then you give yours. Thank you.

Rom 8:22  For we know that the whole creation human race groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

[Amo]

Ah I see, the 4WD translation. Yet I am the one adding interpretation. Go figure.

Romans 8:22
21st Century King James Version
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Romans 8:22
American Standard Version
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain [a]together until now.

Romans 8:22
Amplified Bible
22 For we know that the whole creation has been moaning together as in the pains of childbirth until now.

Romans 8:22
Amplified Bible, Classic Edition
22 We know that the whole creation [of irrational creatures] has been moaning together in the pains of labor until now.

Romans 8:22
BRG Bible
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Romans 8:22
Christian Standard Bible
22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together with labor pains until now.

Romans 8:22
Common English Bible
22 We know that the whole creation is groaning together and suffering labor pains up until now.

Romans 8:22
Complete Jewish Bible
22 We know that until now, the whole creation has been groaning as with the pains of childbirth;

Romans 8:22
Contemporary English Version
22 We know that all creation is still groaning and is in pain, like a woman about to give birth.

Romans 8:22
Darby Translation
22 For we know that the whole creation groans together and travails in pain together until now.

Romans 8:22
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition
22 For we know that every creature groaneth and travaileth in pain, even till now.

I could go on. If you know of a bible translator that agrees with you and has translated as you posted, please do share that. The following link has many different translations.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom+8%3A22&version=DRA

Please do supply a quote from any translation such as that you have posted, if you can. I've never seen it. Obviously the vast majority of interpreters do not agree with your point of view. Why do you suppose that is?

[DaveW]

There is nothing in science that precludes miracles.

Actually there is.  Science wants things to be reproducible in the lab.  That is why science rejects the idea of creation by a higher being.

We do know that the description of the Sun standing still is not what actually happened; simply because we know that even if that actually happened, it would not have produced God's desired effect.  It is not actual motion of the sun that determines day from night; rather it is the motion of the earth with determines that.  But then those to whom this was first written didn't know and understand that.

It was written from the observer's viewpoint.  What really had to have happened was even more remarkable.  That the entire earth stopped in its spinning for the time allotted.  And that without the normal inertial throwing of everything as it seeks to maintain momentum.  Like slamming on the brakes in your car and everything gets thrown off the seat onto the floor.

[4WD]

Ah I see, the 4WD translation. Yet I am the one adding interpretation. Go figure.

Romans 8:22
21st Century King James Version
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Romans 8:22
American Standard Version
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain [a]together until now.

Romans 8:22
Amplified Bible
22 For we know that the whole creation has been moaning together as in the pains of childbirth until now.

Romans 8:22
Amplified Bible, Classic Edition
22 We know that the whole creation [of irrational creatures] has been moaning together in the pains of labor until now.

Romans 8:22
BRG Bible
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Romans 8:22
Christian Standard Bible
22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together with labor pains until now.

Romans 8:22
Common English Bible
22 We know that the whole creation is groaning together and suffering labor pains up until now.

Romans 8:22
Complete Jewish Bible
22 We know that until now, the whole creation has been groaning as with the pains of childbirth;

Romans 8:22
Contemporary English Version
22 We know that all creation is still groaning and is in pain, like a woman about to give birth.

Romans 8:22
Darby Translation
22 For we know that the whole creation groans together and travails in pain together until now.

Romans 8:22
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition
22 For we know that every creature groaneth and travaileth in pain, even till now.

I could go on. If you know of a bible translator that agrees with you and has translated as you posted, please do share that. The following link has many different translations.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom+8%3A22&version=DRA

Please do supply a quote from any translation such as that you have posted, if you can. I've never seen it. Obviously the vast majority of interpreters do not agree with your point of view. Why do you suppose that is?

I am not typically a fan of the Douay-Rheims, but I think this time it has it correct.  I think the meaning of the Greek word, kitisis, in Romans 8 is the same as that in Mark 16:15.  But then perhaps I shouldn't be surprised to find that you might proclaim the gospel to the rocks, and mountians, and the sun and moon and stars. 

[4WD]

Actually there is.  Science wants things to be reproducible in the lab.  That is why science rejects the idea of creation by a higher being.

That is pure Bovine Scat.  I don't know who you have been listening to, but that is just plain wrong.  Miracles are the work of God who is Spirit and spiritual.  Science has no part in either Spirit or spiritual.  Science doesn't reject anything about a higher being.  Some scientists do and some don't, but that has nothing to do with science.

It would seem that you also are somewhat scientifically challenged.

[Rella]

I am not typically a fan of the Douay-Rheims, but I think this time it has it correct.  I think the meaning of the Greek word, kitisis, in Romans 8 is the same as that in Mark 16:15.

Not to jump in-between you two but you have hit the nail on the head.

What head? That which pits one translation over the other and encourages the reader to select that which they are comfortable with that they believe other scripture backs up their understanding.

The facts are that no one knows for certain the meaning of any specific word.

[Amo]

I am not typically a fan of the Douay-Rheims, but I think this time it has it correct.  I think the meaning of the Greek word, kitisis, in Romans 8 is the same as that in Mark 16:15.  But then perhaps I shouldn't be surprised to find that you might proclaim the gospel to the rocks, and mountians, and the sun and moon and stars. 

So are you now expanding your interpretation to include all created creatures and not just humanity? That would certainly be an improvement over it meaning just humanity. Although I'm not sure how that works out for those who believe in the theory of evolution, which theory basically includes pain, suffering, death, and even mass extinction events from the very beginning.

I am still quite sure though, that Paul's declaration concerning all creation, goes much deeper than we now know or are capable of perceiving. To be sure, according to scripture this world is not at all what it once was. Nor do the scriptures predict anything but its continued decline and eventual end in judgment by fire.

[Amo]

Not to jump in-between you two but you have hit the nail on the head.

What head? That which pits one translation over the other and encourages the reader to select that which they are comfortable with that they believe other scripture backs up their understanding.

The facts are that no one knows for certain the meaning of any specific word.

In which case of course there is no objective truth. Therefore no real standard of judgment, and therefore no righteous judgment of God either. How could God righteously judge those among whom there is no real objective truth? He could not. If there is no truly comprehendible standard of truth, then no judgment regarding truth can be justifiable, or right. This is not what the scriptures state however.

Joh 12:44  Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Shall we all be judged by words of God, which none are really able to understand?

[4WD]

Nor do the scriptures predict anything but its continued decline and eventual end in judgment by fire.

I understand the eventual ending of the physical world as described in the Bible.  Where do you find anything about a "continued decline" of the earth or the rest of the universe?  What constitutes that "decline" in your view? Could you provide examples? Where do you read about anything about this world not being what it once was?  Who or what changed it?

[4WD]

In which case of course there is no objective truth.

Of course there is objective truth.  It is just that it is not known by everyone. I would posit that there is some of that objective truth that even the all-knowing Amo is a bit shaky about.

[Amo]

I understand the eventual ending of the physical world as described in the Bible.  Where do you find anything about a "continued decline" of the earth or the rest of the universe?  What constitutes that "decline" in your view? Could you provide examples? Where do you read about anything about this world not being what it once was?  Who or what changed it?

Ignorance, and willing ignorance are two very different things. One involves simply not knowing, the other involves choosing not to know, or pretending one doesn't know. You have been on these boards discussing scripture too long to be of the former group. Nevertheless, I will provide scriptures again highly indicative of major changes, degradation, and final ruin. For you to ignore or argue against once again.

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. 16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Gen 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. 3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. 4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. 5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Gen 7:17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth. 18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters. 19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. 20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. 21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: 22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. 23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark. 24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.

Psa 102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. 26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: 27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.

Isa 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished. 7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings. 8 For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation.

Heb 1:10  And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. 4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Luk 21:10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: 11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. 12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. 13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony. 14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: 15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. 16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. 17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. 18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish. 19 In your patience possess ye your souls........................
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. 24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. 25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. 26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. 27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. 28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

Jer 25:31 A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD. 32 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth. 33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.

I suppose the above is sufficient to convey the general idea to anyone not avoiding the obvious conclusions to be drawn from these scriptures. This without quoting from the book of Revelation concerning the last plagues and final destruction.

[Amo]

Of course there is objective truth.  It is just that it is not known by everyone. I would posit that there is some of that objective truth that even the all-knowing Amo is a bit shaky about.

If I were all knowing, or believed I was, I wouldn't quote so very much scripture all the time. Relying upon the authority of my own observations and surmising, rather than the testimony of scripture which I do repeatedly quote on these boards. At least I continually quote from the authority I claim is the highest. I understand why you do not quote scripture regarding your faith in evolution, since there is no scripture to quote regarding it. Not sure though, why you don't quote the prophets or authorities of that position in defense of your arguments. Have you moved beyond their foundational and continued testimony as well?

My faith in the biblical prophets of old, Christ, and His apostles is demonstrated in my continual quotes and references to them in presenting and or defending my positions. Where is your faith in your deep time evolution theory coming from? Why don't you quote your sources of information and or authority? Is it because you are already all knowing concerting their teachings? Surely you don't intend to take credit for their work and observations, do you? I am not the one here acting like a know it all. I continually reference the authority of the faith I have chosen. You are the one who neither quotes scripture because it cannot support what you have chosen to believe regarding deep time evolution, nor the authorities or shall we say prophets of the same.

[4WD]

Ignorance, and willing ignorance are two very different things. One involves simply not knowing, the other involves choosing not to know, or pretending one doesn't know. You have been on these boards discussing scripture too long to be of the former group.

And relative to the subject matter of this topic, I would put you into the second group.  You have chosen to ignore everything around you and available to you to learn what there is to know about "deep time", but have chosen not to know.  I don't believe you are pretending not to know, but it is your choice. You have chosen to remain ignorant of even the basic principles of science.

Nevertheless, I will provide scriptures again highly indicative of major changes, degradation, and final ruin. For you to ignore or argue against once again.

What will be the final condition of the universe and what is the condition and manner of operation of the universe before that final plight are two separate things altogether.

And it is in your willing ignorance that would post all of that scripture, thinking that it in any way supports your view of the meaning  of the Greek word "ktisis" in Romans 8 and what is happening with respect to the universe today.

[4WD]

I understand why you do not quote scripture regarding your faith in evolution...

I don't have faith in evolution. I do have faith in God of creation and in His creating the basic facts of the physical operation of the universe; something about which you have willingly chosen to be ignorant.

[Amo]

I don't have faith in evolution. I do have faith in God of creation and in His creating the basic facts of the physical operation of the universe; something about which you have willingly chosen to be ignorant.

Yea, just scripture says, God created the basic physical operation of the universe. Not.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17  nd he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Ignorance is, as ignorance speaks I suppose.

[Amo]

And relative to the subject matter of this topic, I would put you into the second group.  You have chosen to ignore everything around you and available to you to learn what there is to know about "deep time", but have chosen not to know.  I don't believe you are pretending not to know, but it is your choice. You have chosen to remain ignorant of even the basic principles of science. What will be the final condition of the universe and what is the condition and manner of operation of the universe before that final plight are two separate things altogether.

And it is in your willing ignorance that would post all of that scripture, thinking that it in any way supports your view of the meaning  of the Greek word "ktisis" in Romans 8 and what is happening with respect to the universe today.

No, I am neither ignorant, nor willingly ignorant of the false claims of the "science and scientists" so called, of this extremely ignorant world filled with puffed up, heady, and high minded deceived individuals. I simply do not agree with their vain imaginings concerning deep time and evolution. Just as you choose to not believe and or ignore all scripture which contradicts their deep time evolutionary views. You know what the bible says, as I know what they say, we just choose to have faith in separate sources of claimed authority. I reject their claims of knowledge and authority, as many of them reject my claimed source of authority. You are just some one in the middle, trying to hold on to both claimed sources of authority, necessitating compromise regarding both. Their science so called, falls apart often. As it must and can only be among the truly ignorant trying piece together and explain that which is far beyond them. While they brag that such is simply the process of learning, it is true, as this is the only way of learning for the truly ignorant. Especially those void of the perfect guidance of the word of God. Seems like your man Darwin wet down this road.

https://www.ucg.org/the-good-news/why-charles-darwin-rejected-the-bible

Quoted article below from link above.

Why Charles Darwin Rejected the Bible

At the Darwin centennial in Chicago in 1959, Sir Julian Huxley, perhaps the most influential evolutionist of the 20th century, made the following pronouncement:

"Charles Darwin has rightly been described as the 'Newton of biology': he did more than any single individual before or since to change man's attitude to the phenomena of life and to provide a coherent scientific framework of ideas for biology, in place of an approach in large part compounded of hearsay, myth, and superstition. He rendered evolution inescapable as a fact, comprehensible as a process, all-embracing as a concept" (Julian Huxley, Evolution After Darwin, Vol. 1: The Evolution of Life, 1961, pp. 1-2).

Darwin was not an outright atheist; he referred to himself as an agnostic. However, he did not always have these views. "Charles hadn't always thought about God or religion as a problem. In fact...both Charles and his father thought he was going to be a country parson" (Deborah Heiligman, Charles and Emma: The Darwins' Leap of Faith, 2009, p. 23).

Darwin attended Cambridge University to prepare for life in the clergy. "While at university, Charles read theology, not just on assignment but also for pleasure. He especially enjoyed the works of William Paley. He read Paley's A View of the Evidences of Christianity...Paley wrote about natural history, arguing that if you examined specimens carefully, you could see how beautifully they were created, how perfect they were in their adaptations.

"This to Paley was evidence of the existence of God and proof that God was the creator of all species. Charles thought these arguments were well-written, coherent, and logical. He did not, at that point, question Paley's premises about God's role in creation" (ibid.).

Darwin was also an avid student of natural history. After graduating from Cambridge, he had opportunity to serve as naturalist on the HMS Beagle—a trip that would last five years, ending in 1836. "While he traveled...Charles did go to church quite regularly, both to the services that his captain led and on shore whenever he got the chance. Some of the crew made fun of him for how religious he seemed...But natural history became his true passion and now, after the voyage, in 1838, Charles was having serious doubts about God and Jesus, about the Revelation, about heaven and hell...he had begun to reject God's role in creation" (ibid., p. 26).

A number of issues contributed to Darwin's doubt. "Many points were being argued about at the time. Three main elements of Holy Scripture were in question—the Genesis account of the creation of the world and the Fall of Man, the wrathful character of the God of the Old Testament, and the New Testament Revelation with Christ's promise of eternal life..."After rejecting a literal reading of the Genesis account of the Creation as he learnt about the vastness of geological time, Charles questioned other historical parts of the Hebrew Bible, and found that he could not accept the God of the Old Testament because he was described as a vengeful tyrant" (Randal Keynes, Darwin, His Daughter and Human Evolution, 2001, pp 47-48).

Darwin's doubts about religion are understandable in retrospect, at least for those who understand what the Bible really teaches. The fact is that some doctrines that caused him to doubt are not in the Bible. For example, he was particularly troubled about the doctrine of everlasting torment in hell.

Years later, he would write in his autobiography: "I can indeed hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true; for if so the plain language of the text seems to show that the men who do not believe, and this would include my Father, Brother and almost all my best friends will be everlastingly punished. And this is a damnable doctrine" (quoted by Heiligman, p. 231).

In April 1851, Annie, the beloved daughter of Charles and Emma, died at 10 years of age after an extended illness. Charles decided not to attend her funeral because he believed he would gain no comfort from a Christian service. This event apparently slammed the door on any remaining faith Charles may have had. "After Annie's death, Charles set the Christian faith firmly behind him. He did not attend church services with the family; he walked with them to the church door but left them to enter on their own" (Keynes, p. 243).

Had Charles Darwin understood what the Bible states about heaven, hell, the resurrection of the dead and eternal life, he may well have never doubted God, Jesus Christ and the Bible in favor of evolution.

Someone else probably would have fashioned the theory of evolution, as the general idea was floating around in England at that time. But it might not have originated with Darwin. He admitted his idea was a theory, and he knew it contained gaps. Still he had faith in his theory that was greater than the faith necessary for him to believe in the God of the Bible as he conceived of Him.

In 1881, near the end of his life, he received a letter from a school teacher that stated, "If we deny the derivation of life from inorganic matter...the most probable alternative is the idea of an eternal or ever-living being filling all immensity with his presence, and breathing into the first animal the breath of life" (quoted by Keynes, pp. 316-317).

Darwin wrote back: "I hardly know what to say. Though no evidence worth anything has as yet, in my opinion, been advanced in favour of a living being developed from inorganic matter, yet I cannot avoid believing the possibility of this will be proved some day in accordance with the law of continuity...Whether the existence of a conscious God can be proved from the existence of the so-called laws of nature...is a perplexing subject, on which I have often thought, but cannot see my way clearly" (ibid.).

[4WD]

No, I am neither ignorant, nor willingly ignorant of the false claims of the "science and scientists" so called, of this extremely ignorant world filled with puffed up, heady, and high minded deceived individuals.

Yeah you are.  You are just to unknowledgeable in the sciences to know that you are.

[4WD]

https://www.ucg.org/the-good-news/why-charles-darwin-rejected-the-bible

Why would I care why Darwin thinks about God except for the historical value? Do you really believe that an atheist is wrong about everything in the physical universe?  Talk about ignorance!!

[4WD]

Yea, just scripture says, God created the basic physical operation of the universe. Not.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17  nd he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Ignorance is, as ignorance speaks I suppose.

So, you don't think that Jesus is God?  I had read somewhere that SDAs rejected the divinity of Jesus, God, the Son.  I didn't than that was true.  But perhaps it is.