Christian Forums

Spank me, please

Social psychologists and financial analysts continue to look for the critical personal characteristics that lead a person to be a CEO or successful entrepreneur. Much to the dismay of child psychologists, there is one thing they all seem to have in common.

As children, they were paddled, belted, switched or swatted.

The frustrated child psychologists wince at such a finding and warn that spanking "slows mental development and hinders achievement.

I hate that I can't spank my child when I need to (i.e., in public). He's only 3, and a delayed spanking at this age is simply not effective. It doesn't take much, either - one light swat and his heart is absolutely broken. I just don't dare do it in public, except at church.

The frustrated child psychologists wince at such a finding and warn that spanking "slows mental development and hinders achievement.

They ought to quit looking so hard at the elements that go into raising up a functional, gracious, poised, talented, confident kid -- and look rather at what appears to work for each kid.

I am sure there are kids somewhere that require little or even no physical/corporal punishment in the mix -- but I have never met one.

I have, OTOH, met several kids I found to be obnoxious, out-of-control, who wre raised by parents who never ever ever spanked them.

Then there are the kids who got liberal doses of spanking and swatting and thumping, which might have been misapplied, since the kids were still obnoxious brats.

It's not like there's a secret, inflexible formula.  What works in your household?  What gets you the end result you want in your kids?

The secret, for me, was to study each child and figure out what worked best.  We gave a few spankings but mostly a certain tone of voice or a look would render the culprit conscience-stricken enough to "straighten up."  Time-outs and grounding were also effective.  I have cared for children or known children where the only way to make the point was a spanking, but never carried out in anger. 

Whispering Hope

My wife still needs one now and then.   ::nodding::

I've had to spank a couple times when time-outs wouldn't work.  Sometimes I don't think its that effective for long term correction.  Especially on my young child.  Perhaps when he is 3-5 a spanking might go longer term in helping him remember what to do and what not to do... right now timeouts just seem like better punishment... or putting his toys in timeout seems to work well too.

I was spanked when I was young... I'm moderately successful for my age I guess...  ::smile::

Discipline should be taylored for the child.  No one method works best for all.

I suspect it depends on the personality of the child.

(But, what do I know... I don't have any kids.  ::doh:: )

HOW DARE YOU, i have only just joined this forum and untill now i have agreed with everything you have said untill now. Spanking your child is wrong i teaches them nothing except fear for their perants for the people that are supposed to love and protect them, Put yourself in a childs shoes im 6"3 and wiegh about 196 im sure you are all about my size or smaller or bigger but if i imagine a 12"3 guy who wieghs 400 pounds hitting me well im going to be scared. We can not allow people to hit their children it is unbelievable wrong would it be alright for a man to hit his wife would that teach her something if i kicked my dog would that fair would that show that i cared for it spanking breeds fear spanking builds resentment spanking builds hatred, as i have mentioned two of my friends have tried to commit suicide and i can put my hand on my heart and say that these two were the only that had perants that hit them wait thats a lie, anouther of my friends is beatern by his perants it started with a light smack and now he spends about 7 months of year in hospital but the police wont do a thing do you not understand what giving people that little amount of power does it makes them need more it makes them abuse it...

: confused and lost  Thu Oct 26, 2006 - 10:12:09
HOW DARE YOU, i have only just joined this forum and untill now i have agreed with everything you have said untill now. Spanking your child is wrong i teaches them nothing except fear for their perants for the people that are supposed to love and protect them, Put yourself in a childs shoes im 6"3 and wiegh about 196 im sure you are all about my size or smaller or bigger but if i imagine a 12"3 guy who wieghs 400 pounds hitting me well im going to be scared. We can not allow people to hit their children it is unbelievable wrong would it be alright for a man to hit his wife would that teach her something if i kicked my dog would that fair would that show that i cared for it spanking breeds fear spanking builds resentment spanking builds hatred, as i have mentioned two of my friends have tried to commit suicide and i can put my hand on my heart and say that these two were the only that had perants that hit them wait thats a lie, anouther of my friends is beatern by his perants it started with a light smack and now he spends about 7 months of year in hospital but the police wont do a thing do you not understand what giving people that little amount of power does it makes them need more it makes them abuse it...

Spanking is not beating a kid up.  Spanking is not wrong.  When done right, it is the best deterrent to violence and it instills respect for authority.  We are living in a world devoid of discipline and a lack of respect for authority.

: confused and lost  Thu Oct 26, 2006 - 10:12:09
HOW DARE YOU, i have only just joined this forum and untill now i have agreed with everything you have said untill now. Spanking your child is wrong i teaches them nothing except fear for their perants for the people that are supposed to love and protect them, Put yourself in a childs shoes im 6"3 and wiegh about 196 im sure you are all about my size or smaller or bigger but if i imagine a 12"3 guy who wieghs 400 pounds hitting me well im going to be scared. We can not allow people to hit their children it is unbelievable wrong would it be alright for a man to hit his wife would that teach her something if i kicked my dog would that fair would that show that i cared for it spanking breeds fear spanking builds resentment spanking builds hatred, as i have mentioned two of my friends have tried to commit suicide and i can put my hand on my heart and say that these two were the only that had perants that hit them wait thats a lie, anouther of my friends is beatern by his perants it started with a light smack and now he spends about 7 months of year in hospital but the police wont do a thing do you not understand what giving people that little amount of power does it makes them need more it makes them abuse it...

Well you are confused on this isue.

I was spanked growing up.  It was never done out of anger, and I hated the talk before the spanking worse that the spanking itself.  I have grown up to love and cherish the man and woman who took the time to love me and discipline me.  Besides it's Biblical:

Proverbs 22:15 Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

Proverbs 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die

The problem is that we have lost the distinction between appropriate physical correction and physical abuse, so that the first is assumed by many to be automatically the second.  That is, to use the technical, psychological term, hogwash.

I must apolgise for my previous message, as it is plainly veiwable it was writtern in anger as i had just spoken to a friend of mine who had just been released from hospital after a suicide attempt because his dad beat him up. My main issue with your proposal that spanking is right is the fact that when given a small amount of power it is in human nature to try and get more... are you guys not worried that a simple smack could escalate in to something more?

The key is to remember is to discipline our kids (which isn't always "punishment").

: mandalee65  Wed Oct 18, 2006 - 11:15:07
I hate that I can't spank my child when I need to (i.e., in public). He's only 3, and a delayed spanking at this age is simply not effective. It doesn't take much, either - one light swat and his heart is absolutely broken. I just don't dare do it in public, except at church.

Have you tried taking him to a public restroom?  I had to do that with my 2 y/o once, and now I just mention the bathroom and he bucks right up.

Our best form of "discipline" right now is at their bedtime.  Boy my boys are afraid of the dark, so the mere threat of closing their door is enough to make them behave  ::lookaround::

KP

: Gary  Mon Oct 23, 2006 - 18:14:01
My wife still needs one now and then.   ::nodding::

I hope you follow the rule of thumb and do not use and stick that is bigger than the circumference of your thumb.

: confused and lost  Tue Oct 31, 2006 - 10:06:14
I must apolgise for my previous message, as it is plainly veiwable it was writtern in anger as i had just spoken to a friend of mine who had just been released from hospital after a suicide attempt because his dad beat him up. My main issue with your proposal that spanking is right is the fact that when given a small amount of power it is in human nature to try and get more... are you guys not worried that a simple smack could escalate in to something more?

First I am sorry if I misread your tone  Your mood bear was set to angelic.


There is a HUGE difference between spanking for punishment and beating your kids because you are frustrated. My wife and I use coporal punishment and we try as hard as we can to cool off before we spank them. It is hard but a trip to their room so that you can cool off and then talking about why they are getting the spanking and then spanking is better in my opinion than slapping them across the mouth because they disrespected their mother. So at least up to this point a simple smack of the behind has never esclated into something more.

What caused mental scarring in me was the constant verbal abuse I suffered from my sorry-excuse-for-a-dad. I healed from the beatings.

We need to plan ahead and try to see possible outcomes.  As was mentioned before, looking at what works for each individual kid is the key --

For some kids, having carried them to the restroom so they can get their swat on the butt while out away from home, and then reminding them later that a trip to the restroom is a possibility, will work well.  For some other kids it will instill in them a hatred of the restroom and keep them in diapers until they are 5!  You gotta tread carefully!

All I had to do with my daughters when they were little was ask, "Do you me to give you something to cry about?" when they were unruly, and they shut right up. They knew it wasn't an idle threat like parents do these days (If you don't stop that, I'm going to spank you.) The child knows that will never happen and go right on with what they're doing with no fear of punishment. My daughters knew I would do what I said. One thing I never did was lie to my daughters.

: confused and lost  Tue Oct 31, 2006 - 10:06:14
I must apolgise for my previous message, as it is plainly veiwable it was writtern in anger as i had just spoken to a friend of mine who had just been released from hospital after a suicide attempt because his dad beat him up. My main issue with your proposal that spanking is right is the fact that when given a small amount of power it is in human nature to try and get more... are you guys not worried that a simple smack could escalate in to something more?

Are you a parent?  I could be way off, but you sound too young and/or unmarried.  I used CENI by the way.

: Gary  Mon Oct 23, 2006 - 18:14:01
My wife still needs one now and then.   ::nodding::

Every time I see this thread title I think sado-masochistic thoughts for a moment.  Sad, iddinnit?

Thanks ever so much for egging me on...

: Jon-Marc  Wed Dec 27, 2006 - 13:34:32
All I had to do with my daughters when they were little was ask, "Do you me to give you something to cry about?" when they were unruly, and they shut right up. They knew it wasn't an idle threat like parents do these days (If you don't stop that, I'm going to spank you.) The child knows that will never happen and go right on with what they're doing with no fear of punishment. My daughters knew I would do what I said. One thing I never did was lie to my daughters.

So funny you should mention that. Today my daughter was talking about that exact phrase. She said with her 2 year old, it is a silly thing to say, since usually the problem is that he is already crying and why would you ask that, if in his mind, he already has something to cry about?

My Mom always used that phrase.

Blessings, Memmy

: memmy  Fri Dec 29, 2006 - 21:26:35
So funny you should mention that. Today my daughter was talking about that exact phrase. She said with her 2 year old, it is a silly thing to say, since usually the problem is that he is already crying and why would you ask that, if in his mind, he already has something to cry about?

My Mom always used that phrase.

Blessings, Memmy

Children are not stupid. They know whether or not they can get their way with crying, and often they can. Too many parents would rather give in and give the child what they want. Asking them that question ALWAYS shut them up, because they knew I would give them a REAL reason to cry.

Either that, or they knew that there was no possible way their father would EVER understand what was causing them pain -- so they sucked it up, shut it down, squelched themselves inside, and trudged along ahead in life.   Some kids will stay shut down like that and want nothing to do with their fathers years later.

Yes, I know that lots of times a crying screaming whiny kid is just acting out and being manipulative.  So are adults often acting the same exact way, they've simply learned more adult-acceptable ways of pulling the same garbage.

But -- but.

Sometimes, with a kid old enough to articulate things, I think an actual discussion of the basis for the unhappiness would be a lot more productive.

: janine  Sat Dec 30, 2006 - 04:01:27
Either that, or they knew that there was no possible way their father would EVER understand what was causing them pain -- so they sucked it up, shut it down, squelched themselves inside, and trudged along ahead in life. 

I'm not talking about all parents, all children, and every situation. I'm talking about My children. I knew what the problem was. They wanted something they couldn't have and like ALL children would cry about it. Too many parents will give in to their wants to shut them up. I don't believe in giving in to a child's every desire. That's why too many children have no respect for their weak, lenient parents who are more concerned with being their friend than their parent. Before you ask, I have two grown daughters from whom I got a lot of hugs and kisses when they were little and even after they grew up. We live in separate states, and I'm not able to see them or my grandkids.

I have a nephew who is in prison because he was given everything he demanded, and I mean DEMANDED. Even when he was old enough to do things for himself, he would tell his parents what he wanted them to do, and they would do it. His parents waited on him hand and foot and never denied him anything. He grew up not knowing how to do anything for himself other than take and never give.

I wonder if that was less of a problem in the "Way Back When".

I mean, far enough back that an average person HAD to work if they wanted to eat.

Now, even a person who has good intentions about not being soft and self-centered gets fewer challenges thrown at him to make him clear-eyed.  We live in such a push-button world, in the West anyway.

My kids don't have to do rock-bottom-basic stuff like grow their own food, but I hope over the years I've put them in enough gardens and rabbitries and chicken yards, and sent them up enough trees after mushrooms, that they have some idea how to survive if they need to.

Maybe I am idealizing things the way they once were, but it just seems like as time goes on it's easier to be self-centered.  Am I totally out of touch with reality here?

This is something we are dealing with right now along with my daughter and her 2 year old.

Babies are conditioned to cry as their means of communication, as to say they are hungry. tired, belly aches, or sometimes feeling in need of some affection as well.

When they are almost to the point of being able to communicate with words, we begin to start punishing them for crying because we don't want to "look bad" to so and so at church, in the store, etc. I stress almost able to communicate. Many times, we can't understand what they are saying yet.

Heck, some of us adults get grumpy when we are hungry, if we skip a meal, are tired, or are not feeling well, and can lash out in grumpiness too. The thing is, by then, we usually know what our problem stims from. As small toddlers, they haven't quite gotten to the point of understanding those basic needs, and how to communicate them yet either.
It's a tough life for a toddler, in between being tended to for their needs by crying and to the point of being able to be understood through verbal skills.

Tough life for those 2 year olds. No wonder we call them "the terrible twos".

Blessings, Memmy

: memmy  Sun Dec 31, 2006 - 19:09:19
This is something we are dealing with right now along with my daughter and her 2 year old.

Babies are conditioned to cry as their means of communication, as to say they are hungry. tired, belly aches, or sometimes feeling in need of some affection as well.

When they are almost to the point of being able to communicate with words, we begin to start punishing them for crying because we don't want to "look bad" to so and so at church, in the store, etc. I stress almost able to communicate. Many times, we can't understand what they are saying yet.

Heck, some of us adults get grumpy when we are hungry, if we skip a meal, are tired, or are not feeling well, and can lash out in grumpiness too. The thing is, by then, we usually know what our problem stims from. As small toddlers, they haven't quite gotten to the point of understanding those basic needs, and how to communicate them yet either.
It's a tough life for a toddler, in between being tended to for their needs by crying and to the point of being able to be understood through verbal skills.

Tough life for those 2 year olds. No wonder we call them "the terrible twos".

Blessings, Memmy

I have spanked my daughter for "crying."  In fact, I have this very day.  But she makes the "terrible two's" seem like serenity.

I have 4 children, 17, 14, 6, and 2  and each one of them is very different, requiring different mixtures of types of discipline. My 14 year old required the most % of corporeal punishment to date, but his and my relationship are very good. And there is a big difference between abuse and corporeal punishment. In fact, I often gage how hard my swats are, with a belt or switch, by hitting my own leg. 

By the way, I've also taken the spanking for my kids. I ususally do that once in their early teens, to teach them that I love them enough to take their beating, if it would do them any good.  The way I do this, is for a series of oppropriate actions and attitudes, I take them to their room for an official spanking. I go in, have them bend over, and proceed to spank my leg far worse than I've ever spanked their behind. When it's over, I explain to them my love for them and that I would take all of their spankings if I believed it would do them good. But that I don't because they have got to learn to respect people, rules, and authority.

I also tell my children that I love them the same, that's why I treat them each so differently.  I do my best to treat them based upon their own make-up.

Blessings,
Sherman

: admin  Wed Oct 18, 2006 - 10:35:52
Spank me, please

Social psychologists and financial analysts continue to look for the critical personal characteristics that lead a person to be a CEO or successful entrepreneur. Much to the dismay of child psychologists, there is one thing they all seem to have in common.

As children, they were paddled, belted, switched or swatted.

The frustrated child psychologists wince at such a finding and warn that spanking "slows mental development and hinders achievement." Of course they are confident that a corrective spanking opens the door to physical abuse and permanent emotional scaring.

However, it appears that a smack here and there is a part of every CEO's history. USA Today interviewed CEOs over a three month period and could not find a single one that had been spared a spanking now and then as a child. And those business leaders tend to express more appreciation for their parents than those from correction-free households.

Sara Blakely says she was "spanked and spanked often," so much that she would wear all of her days-of-the-week underwear at the same time to soften the blow. Today, she is the founder and owner of a women's undergarment manufacturer that has passed $100 million in retail sales this year. Blakely says she thought of a name for her company while sitting in Atlanta traffic. It's a name that nobody seems to forget. Spanx. Now there's a case study that will drive a Freudian psychoanalyst crazy.

Full Story (http://usatoday.com/money/companies/management/2006-10-08-spanking-ceos-usat_x.htm)

That good ole' Biblical wisdom.

Corporations draw attention from the small business, thus leaving said small business to rot in bankruptcy. It's a cold-hearted way of doing business if you ask me. I like to use the cancer analogy. Stealing nutrients from healthy cells in an egotistical, sociopathic way. Eventually killing the entire body. How decieving of those CEOs to do that to people. Especially Nike, moving to Indonesia where they only have to pay their workers 2 cents a day, leaving American workers unemployed, just to make a few extra bucks. Which they obviously don't need. That doesn't seem very Christian. More Satanic. Self righteous and justified only in greed.
If you're going to justify spanking with examples of succesful people, don't use the avarice dwelling, demeening, business *******.

Please watch your choice of words Adrian.

Don't forget this is a Christian board, ok?

You seem very bitter about this matter.

I believe the point was that these CEOs have grown up to be self disciplined people now. I don't believe they are are so evil, as you seem to portray them. Some, no doubt are, but you find that in all walks of life, no matter where you look around.

That's why we need Jesus.

Blessings, Memmy

: memmy  Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 21:08:44
Please watch your choice of words Adrian.

Don't forget this is a Christian board, ok?

You seem very bitter about this matter.

I believe the point was that these CEOs have grown up to be self disciplined people now. I don't believe they are are so evil, as you seem to portray them. Some, no doubt are, but you find that in all walks of life, no matter where you look around.

That's why we need Jesus.

Blessings, Memmy

Selfishly taking one's business to idiotic measures by competively trying to create an unnecessary monopoly, despite the downfall of fellow companies, in order to get an uncomprehensible amount of cash that is completely supererogatory is not "self-discipline". Quite the opposite on the contrary. Especially when one person is taking all that money when the US is over 8 billion dollars in debt.

And when does someone have to be a CEO to be succesful to begin with? It's obviously not the correct choice for everyone. There are many other opportunities in "lesser" jobs that are just as, perhaps more satisfying.

: Just As I Am  Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 21:49:45
While your points on CEO's and business certainly have merit,From what I understand, this article and discussion is about spanking and discipline in the family. Let's try to keep the thread on topic.

Thanks!  ::smile::

I was trying to point out that using CEOs as an example of succesful "spanked" people was not the best idea.

Um... Adrian?  Ever thought of kidnapping and torturing CEO's?

Or blowing up their headquarters, burning all their profits and giving their Boards of Directors wedgies.

Nasty ol' evil corporations.

Must've been spanked as  children.

: Adrian  Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 21:45:08

: memmy  Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 21:08:44
Please watch your choice of words Adrian.

Don't forget this is a Christian board, ok?

You seem very bitter about this matter.

I believe the point was that these CEOs have grown up to be self disciplined people now. I don't believe they are are so evil, as you seem to portray them. Some, no doubt are, but you find that in all walks of life, no matter where you look around.

That's why we need Jesus.

Blessings, Memmy

Selfishly taking one's business to idiotic measures by competively trying to create an unnecessary monopoly, despite the downfall of fellow companies, in order to get an uncomprehensible amount of cash that is completely supererogatory is not "self-discipline". Quite the opposite on the contrary. Especially when one person is taking all that money when the US is over 8 billion dollars in debt.

And when does someone have to be a CEO to be succesful to begin with? It's obviously not the correct choice for everyone. There are many other opportunities in "lesser" jobs that are just as, perhaps more satisfying.

Not all CEO's are bloodthirsty savages bent on world domination.  There are a few out that are greedy, but not all.

Our yearly budget deficit for the federal government has been in the billions the last few years, and our National Debt is over 8 Trillion.

: janine  Fri Feb 02, 2007 - 05:43:19
Um... Adrian?  Ever thought of kidnapping and torturing CEO's?

Torturing, I've done. Kidnapping is illegal. I prefer the psychological torturing method which is completely legal. Unless it's a child.

: admin  Wed Oct 18, 2006 - 10:35:52
Spank me, please

Social psychologists and financial analysts continue to look for the critical personal characteristics that lead a person to be a CEO or successful entrepreneur. Much to the dismay of child psychologists, there is one thing they all seem to have in common.

As children, they were paddled, belted, switched or swatted.

Worldly success is not the standard by which to judge a successful life.  CEOs and successful entrepenuers often work 80-100 hours per week, ignore their children, and live empty, frustrating lives.  Of course this is not always the case.
My hope for my my daughter is that she grows up to be a happy, healthy servant of God.  I don't care if she does that from a boardroom or a class room.

Just my two cents.

Perhaps that explains the abundance of moraly bankrupt CEOs. ::frown::

And also the abundance of morally bankrupt bus drivers, newspaper reporters, high school teachers...?

I have three kids  now all adults. They got the VERY VERY occasional smack if I really got cross with them but I could NEVER have cold bloodedly hit them when I was calm and 'in control'. The thought makes me cringe inside and makes my blood run cold even thinking about it.
People were always commenting on how well bahaved and lovely they all were, and that was without corporal punishment, or hitting(and certainly not with a stick or belt or suchlike), just the usual tellings off and occasionally being sent to their rooms.
You only have to watch such programmes as super nanny now to see that all you need is consistency, and loving firmness to change even the most difficult child.  You dont need physical pnishment, she has proved that time and time again with the most naughty children you could imagine.

My husband was hit with the buckle end of a belt and he was a very sensitive child, and I am sure this has affected him badly and he still has some issues with his mum (who did the hitting) and they have a very poor relationship.
She even told a neighbour that they should shut their daughter in the chicken house for being naughty, when this poor little girl was really really scared of chickens. Well they did as she said.......goodness knows what happened the the little girl or how this affected her.
I guess if you want your children to obey out of fear, then go ahead, hit them with sticks, belts or whatever you want, but that isnt what I wanted for my children. I wanted them to bahave because it was the right thing to do and not because they were so scared and afraid of the punishment.

: chosenone  Thu Sep 25, 2008 - 16:28:46
I have three kids  now all adults. They got the VERY VERY occasional smack if I really got cross with them but I could NEVER have cold bloodedly hit them when I was calm and 'in control'. The thought makes me cringe inside and makes my blood run cold even thinking about it.
People were always commenting on how well bahaved and lovely they all were, and that was without corporal punishment, or hitting(and certainly not with a stick or belt or suchlike), just the usual tellings off and occasionally being sent to their rooms.
You only have to watch such programmes as super nanny now to see that all you need is consistency, and loving firmness to change even the most difficult child.  You dont need physical pnishment, she has proved that time and time again with the most naughty children you could imagine.

My husband was hit with the buckle end of a belt and he was a very sensitive child, and I am sure this has affected him badly and he still has some issues with his mum (who did the hitting) and they have a very poor relationship.
She even told a neighbour that they should shut their daughter in the chicken house for being naughty, when this poor little girl was really really scared of chickens. Well they did as she said.......goodness knows what happened the the little girl or how this affected her.
I guess if you want your children to obey out of fear, then go ahead, hit them with sticks, belts or whatever you want, but that isnt what I wanted for my children. I wanted them to bahave because it was the right thing to do and not because they were so scared and afraid of the punishment.

Should I take the word of the Super Nanny or the Word of God?

: Gary  Thu Sep 25, 2008 - 16:41:33

: chosenone  Thu Sep 25, 2008 - 16:28:46
I have three kids  now all adults. They got the VERY VERY occasional smack if I really got cross with them but I could NEVER have cold bloodedly hit them when I was calm and 'in control'. The thought makes me cringe inside and makes my blood run cold even thinking about it.
People were always commenting on how well bahaved and lovely they all were, and that was without corporal punishment, or hitting(and certainly not with a stick or belt or suchlike), just the usual tellings off and occasionally being sent to their rooms.
You only have to watch such programmes as super nanny now to see that all you need is consistency, and loving firmness to change even the most difficult child.  You dont need physical pnishment, she has proved that time and time again with the most naughty children you could imagine.

My husband was hit with the buckle end of a belt and he was a very sensitive child, and I am sure this has affected him badly and he still has some issues with his mum (who did the hitting) and they have a very poor relationship.
She even told a neighbour that they should shut their daughter in the chicken house for being naughty, when this poor little girl was really really scared of chickens. Well they did as she said.......goodness knows what happened the the little girl or how this affected her.
I guess if you want your children to obey out of fear, then go ahead, hit them with sticks, belts or whatever you want, but that isnt what I wanted for my children. I wanted them to bahave because it was the right thing to do and not because they were so scared and afraid of the punishment.

Should I take the word of the Super Nanny or the Word of God?

Its debatable  and many have debated it, whether the word says that we should hit our children, but the point I was trying to make is that you actually dont need to beat/hit your children to get them to beome nice people. If other non violent methods work, then what an earth is the point of using violent ones? I know many people, Christians and otherwise who dont use violent methods and have lovely children. The point that I was making about supernanny is that she is called in to deal with REALLY badly behaved children and the methods she uses, which are widely used today, really work.
I am not saying we dont need to be firm and discipline our children, but why use violent methods if we dont have to?
Some children who are hit a lot can become resentful fearful and angry and this will stay inside until at some pont it may well emerge and cause lots of problems for them and those around them.

: chosenone  Thu Sep 25, 2008 - 17:13:41

: Gary  Thu Sep 25, 2008 - 16:41:33

: chosenone  Thu Sep 25, 2008 - 16:28:46
I have three kids  now all adults. They got the VERY VERY occasional smack if I really got cross with them but I could NEVER have cold bloodedly hit them when I was calm and 'in control'. The thought makes me cringe inside and makes my blood run cold even thinking about it.
People were always commenting on how well bahaved and lovely they all were, and that was without corporal punishment, or hitting(and certainly not with a stick or belt or suchlike), just the usual tellings off and occasionally being sent to their rooms.
You only have to watch such programmes as super nanny now to see that all you need is consistency, and loving firmness to change even the most difficult child.  You dont need physical pnishment, she has proved that time and time again with the most naughty children you could imagine.

My husband was hit with the buckle end of a belt and he was a very sensitive child, and I am sure this has affected him badly and he still has some issues with his mum (who did the hitting) and they have a very poor relationship.
She even told a neighbour that they should shut their daughter in the chicken house for being naughty, when this poor little girl was really really scared of chickens. Well they did as she said.......goodness knows what happened the the little girl or how this affected her.
I guess if you want your children to obey out of fear, then go ahead, hit them with sticks, belts or whatever you want, but that isnt what I wanted for my children. I wanted them to bahave because it was the right thing to do and not because they were so scared and afraid of the punishment.

Should I take the word of the Super Nanny or the Word of God?

Its debatable  and many have debated it, whether the word says that we should hit our children, but the point I was trying to make is that you actually dont need to beat/hit your children to get them to beome nice people. If other non violent methods work, then what an earth is the point of using violent ones? I know many people, Christians and otherwise who dont use violent methods and have lovely children. The point that I was making about supernanny is that she is called in to deal with REALLY badly behaved children and the methods she uses, which are widely used today, really work.
I am not saying we dont need to be firm and discipline our children, but why use violent methods if we dont have to?
Some children who are hit a lot can become resentful fearful and angry and this will stay inside until at some pont it may well emerge and cause lots of problems for them and those around them.

Spanking isn't violent, abuse is violent.  It is discipline and it is mentioned favorably in God's Word.  My children are small.  I can't reason with them with words.  They understand a good swat.  I'll take God's Word over Super Nanny.  I don't want to spank my children when I'm cross, I want to do it without being angry, crossing the line happens when one is too angry.

: Gary  Thu Sep 25, 2008 - 17:18:44

: chosenone  Thu Sep 25, 2008 - 17:13:41

: Gary  Thu Sep 25, 2008 - 16:41:33

: chosenone  Thu Sep 25, 2008 - 16:28:46
I have three kids  now all adults. They got the VERY VERY occasional smack if I really got cross with them but I could NEVER have cold bloodedly hit them when I was calm and 'in control'. The thought makes me cringe inside and makes my blood run cold even thinking about it.
People were always commenting on how well bahaved and lovely they all were, and that was without corporal punishment, or hitting(and certainly not with a stick or belt or suchlike), just the usual tellings off and occasionally being sent to their rooms.
You only have to watch such programmes as super nanny now to see that all you need is consistency, and loving firmness to change even the most difficult child.  You dont need physical pnishment, she has proved that time and time again with the most naughty children you could imagine.

My husband was hit with the buckle end of a belt and he was a very sensitive child, and I am sure this has affected him badly and he still has some issues with his mum (who did the hitting) and they have a very poor relationship.
She even told a neighbour that they should shut their daughter in the chicken house for being naughty, when this poor little girl was really really scared of chickens. Well they did as she said.......goodness knows what happened the the little girl or how this affected her.
I guess if you want your children to obey out of fear, then go ahead, hit them with sticks, belts or whatever you want, but that isnt what I wanted for my children. I wanted them to bahave because it was the right thing to do and not because they were so scared and afraid of the punishment.

Should I take the word of the Super Nanny or the Word of God?

Its debatable  and many have debated it, whether the word says that we should hit our children, but the point I was trying to make is that you actually dont need to beat/hit your children to get them to beome nice people. If other non violent methods work, then what an earth is the point of using violent ones? I know many people, Christians and otherwise who dont use violent methods and have lovely children. The point that I was making about supernanny is that she is called in to deal with REALLY badly behaved children and the methods she uses, which are widely used today, really work.
I am not saying we dont need to be firm and discipline our children, but why use violent methods if we dont have to?
Some children who are hit a lot can become resentful fearful and angry and this will stay inside until at some pont it may well emerge and cause lots of problems for them and those around them.

Spanking isn't violent, abuse is violent.  It is discipline and it is mentioned favorably in God's Word.  My children are small.  I can't reason with them with words.  They understand a good swat.  I'll take God's Word over Super Nanny.  I don't want to spank my children when I'm cross, I want to do it without being angry, crossing the line happens when one is too angry.

We all have to do what we think it best of course, but God gives us people with childcare experience to give us help and hints along the way, just as he gives us help with all issues in life.

What worries me is that some families us this violent (and I believe any physical hitting beating or whatever is violent) method for every little misdemeanor when  surely it should only ever be used for the really bad behaviour.(if at all)
I watched a programme once about three families (two in the USA and one in the UK) who all used swatches, willow tree branches or whatever to hit their chilldren 'in love', but they used it daily, for everythng that their children EVER did wrong, and it made me feel like weeping to see it. As a Christian it totally went against the grain, and I knew that I could never do that to my children.
I was ALWAYS  firm and consistant with my kids, but there are so many ways to correct them that I believe that hitting is useless and unnessessary.Maybe some families such as these, who use this so much need to give a bit more thought to using alternative methods far more often, rather than thinking that only thing one thing works and nothing else will do.

My youngest child, a daughter, was smacked no more than 4 or 5 times in her whole life(and I regreted it each time) and she is a lovely young lady.

Where do you draw the line. If someone is hit several times with a belt,as my husband was for his punishment, that is abuse to me. Is one smack allowed? Is two or three? Is hitting with a cane/swat allowed according to others? Where do you stop. If smacking isnt violent, when does it become violent? I cant see the difference.I can only remember one occasion being smacked when I was small and I grew up to be a normal, kind, very honest and decent person (I hope!)
If we hit someone in the street we would quite rightly be arrested and charged with assult, so why is it allowed with children, who are so small compared to us.

I am just very grateful that God doesnt see fit to hit or beat me, as his child. everytime I make a mistake or I, and most peole probably, would be black and blue. His way is to gently lead and encourage and guide and lead by example, not to be violent or demanding.Yes he does discipline us, but not by forcing us or by using fear or punishment, but by drawing us with love and consistantly showing us the right way.

I don't see how your post jives with scripture.  I think it does the opposite.

Proverbs 13:24

He who spares the rod hates his son,  but he who loves him is careful to discipline him.

Proverbs 23:13,14

Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die.
Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death.

: Gary  Thu Sep 25, 2008 - 23:27:54
Proverbs 13:24

He who spares the rod hates his son,  but he who loves him is careful to discipline him.

Proverbs 23:13,14

Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die.
Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death.

well, 2 of my children are Christians and the third is getitng there, so I guess they are saved from death., in the only way that they can be saved from death, through Christ.

Proverbs are just general wise advice sayings, not commandments.  No one should hit a child with a rod.

love,

Sopranette

: sopranette  Fri Sep 26, 2008 - 05:45:30
Proverbs are just general wise advice sayings, not commandments.  No one should hit a child with a rod.

love,

Sopranette

They are not strict commandments, but they are wise sayings, AND scripture.  You can either believe what they say or not.  Choice is up to you.  I believe them.

The modern equivilant of a rod is a metal bar.  Are you seriously going to advocate hitting a child with something like this?  I will tell you now, if I find out anyone is using a rod to hit a child with, they had better hope the police get there before I do.

love,

Sopranette

: sopranette  Fri Sep 26, 2008 - 12:06:11
The modern equivilant of a rod is a metal bar.  Are you seriously going to advocate hitting a child with something like this?  I will tell you now, if I find out anyone is using a rod to hit a child with, they had better hope the police get there before I do.

love,

Sopranette

No, I don't use a metal bar.  Tell me, are you against corporal punishment?

The proverbs are there as instruction and to guide us in all things concerning God and life.

If you cannot trust the Proverbs, then you certainly can't trust some "Child care professional" who got their education at some liberal college that probably never mentioned a Holy and righteous God to them in the FOUR years they learned to care for the child that GOD GAVE TO YOU to raise.

Putting the responsibility of "experience" and "guidance" for our children's future and eternity on to someone we don't know, educated by someone we never met, so that we can take our hands off of what God gave us to to do is very irresponsible.

I had a respected, published Dr tell me once... "No one is more of an expert with your child than you"...  which says it all for me.  Child care people don't tell me how to raise my child, I tell them.

And if a spanking is violence in your home, then you have no business spanking your child, you need to realize that you did not take GOD'S FULL counsel into consideration and go back to the drawing board.  

The "ROD" ...   was not the STAFF or LARGE STICK that you spank with.. it was as a switch... a reed or stalk of growth by the side of the river...    And I know from experience as a child, a rod or switch on the buttock of a kid with pants on, will make them jump... it's not abuse.   It stings...  but not nearly as much as the sting of spiritual death will should you neglect to be the parent that God has called you to be in life.  People need to grow up.  

A few years ago... We had a great uproar about the American kid who was getting spanked in Singapore for his crimes...  Hey...  if you go to Singapore where they cane you, you don't need a gun to walk the streets at night.  The parental respect is off the charts.  Just a thought.

: sopranette  Fri Sep 26, 2008 - 12:06:11
The modern equivilant of a rod is a metal bar.  Are you seriously going to advocate hitting a child with something like this?  I will tell you now, if I find out anyone is using a rod to hit a child with, they had better hope the police get there before I do.

love,

Sopranette

That is bunk... is that what a rod for spanking is to you?  Would you not look up what "rod" meant and how to get one?  You would just take the word that because we make steal rods today, that is your option for spanking your child?  Some realistic thinking would be nice... a switch is the modern equivalent to the "rod" we speak of in proverbs...   balance here people, balance.

Those scriptures do speak in terms of masculine - so, beat the sons but not the daughters.

zoonance... how do you justify that compared to the WORD saying that there is NEITHER Male nor Female, Gentile or Jew in the LORD?

Seems to correct your theology on spanking only males.

WHAT I WANT TO KNOW IS... why do people pull out the ridiculous to explain the simple? 

"the Rod" is  a "steal rod".... and "spank males only".... we act like we have no reasoning power of our own, we speak as robots.   ::frustrated::

: kensington  Fri Sep 26, 2008 - 12:17:17
zoonance... how do you justify that compared to the WORD saying that there is NEITHER Male nor Female, Gentile or Jew in the LORD?

Seems to correct your theology on spanking only males.

I only answer because you honestly do not recognize my humor.   I truly apologize for embarrassing you.   ::kissing::

: Gary  Fri Sep 26, 2008 - 12:08:26

: sopranette  Fri Sep 26, 2008 - 12:06:11
The modern equivilant of a rod is a metal bar.  Are you seriously going to advocate hitting a child with something like this?  I will tell you now, if I find out anyone is using a rod to hit a child with, they had better hope the police get there before I do.

love,

Sopranette

No, I don't use a metal bar.  Tell me, are you against corporal punishment?

No, I'm not. I don't use anything but my hand, and one swat is all that is needed.

love,

Sopranette

: kensington  Fri Sep 26, 2008 - 12:19:05
WHAT I WANT TO KNOW IS... why do people pull out the ridiculous to explain the simple? 

"the Rod" is  a "steal rod".... and "spank males only".... we act like we have no reasoning power of our own, we speak as robots.   ::frustrated::

It's spelled "steel".

love,

Sopranette

: sopranette  Fri Sep 26, 2008 - 12:40:09

: kensington  Fri Sep 26, 2008 - 12:19:05
WHAT I WANT TO KNOW IS... why do people pull out the ridiculous to explain the simple? 

"the Rod" is  a "steal rod".... and "spank males only".... we act like we have no reasoning power of our own, we speak as robots.   ::frustrated::

It's spelled "steele".

love,

Sopranette

Make the kids watch Remington Steele?   That is cruel!

: sopranette  Fri Sep 26, 2008 - 12:40:09

: kensington  Fri Sep 26, 2008 - 12:19:05
WHAT I WANT TO KNOW IS... why do people pull out the ridiculous to explain the simple? 

"the Rod" is  a "steal rod".... and "spank males only".... we act like we have no reasoning power of our own, we speak as robots.   ::frustrated::

It's spelled "steele".

love,

Sopranette

It's spelled "steel."

: Gary  Fri Sep 26, 2008 - 12:47:09

: sopranette  Fri Sep 26, 2008 - 12:40:09

: kensington  Fri Sep 26, 2008 - 12:19:05
WHAT I WANT TO KNOW IS... why do people pull out the ridiculous to explain the simple? 

"the Rod" is  a "steal rod".... and "spank males only".... we act like we have no reasoning power of our own, we speak as robots.   ::frustrated::

It's spelled "steele".

love,

Sopranette

It's spelled "steel."

Thanks Gary... sometimes I type faster than I think... 

But, THAT is funny. 

And,  no matter how it is correctly spelled, taking the term literally in this day and age of education and information is just NUTS!   rofl

: zoonance  Fri Sep 26, 2008 - 12:23:24

: kensington  Fri Sep 26, 2008 - 12:17:17
zoonance... how do you justify that compared to the WORD saying that there is NEITHER Male nor Female, Gentile or Jew in the LORD?

Seems to correct your theology on spanking only males.

I only answer because you honestly do not recognize my humor.   I truly apologize for embarrassing you.   ::kissing::

Oh... too funny... but I'm not embarrassed.. truly.   

: sopranette  Fri Sep 26, 2008 - 12:06:11
The modern equivilant of a rod is a metal bar.  Are you seriously going to advocate hitting a child with something like this?  I will tell you now, if I find out anyone is using a rod to hit a child with, they had better hope the police get there before I do.

love,

Sopranette

Did you ever read the Psalms where David wrote:  "Thy rod and they staff, they comfort me."?  The rod and staff were used to give direction, to pull the lambs back from danger.  They were used to beat predators...
Shepherds did not use the rod to beat their sheep.

: w8ing4daybreak  Sat Sep 27, 2008 - 10:34:22

: sopranette  Fri Sep 26, 2008 - 12:06:11
The modern equivilant of a rod is a metal bar.  Are you seriously going to advocate hitting a child with something like this?  I will tell you now, if I find out anyone is using a rod to hit a child with, they had better hope the police get there before I do.

love,

Sopranette

Did you ever read the Psalms where David wrote:  "Thy rod and they staff, they comfort me."?  The rod and staff were used to give direction, to pull the lambs back from danger.  They were used to beat predators...
Shepherds did not use the rod to beat their sheep.

Thank you SO MUCH for posting this, I was going to post this very same thing. They didnt hit their sheep, only used the rod to guide them if they were going off track. They didnt beat them, so how come we are suppose to beat/hit our kids?

: chosenone  Sat Sep 27, 2008 - 14:18:38

: w8ing4daybreak  Sat Sep 27, 2008 - 10:34:22

: sopranette  Fri Sep 26, 2008 - 12:06:11
The modern equivilant of a rod is a metal bar.  Are you seriously going to advocate hitting a child with something like this?  I will tell you now, if I find out anyone is using a rod to hit a child with, they had better hope the police get there before I do.

love,

Sopranette

Did you ever read the Psalms where David wrote:  "Thy rod and they staff, they comfort me."?  The rod and staff were used to give direction, to pull the lambs back from danger.  They were used to beat predators...
Shepherds did not use the rod to beat their sheep.

Thank you SO MUCH for posting this, I was going to post this very same thing. They didnt hit their sheep, only used the rod to guide them if they were going off track. They didnt beat them, so how come we are suppose to beat/hit our kids?

Beating and spanking are different.  Like I said before, if you want to go by Super Nanny, by all means go ahead.  I believe that the bible speaks of physical discipline and while my kids are young, I will use it.

: w8ing4daybreak  Sat Sep 27, 2008 - 10:34:22

: sopranette  Fri Sep 26, 2008 - 12:06:11
The modern equivilant of a rod is a metal bar.  Are you seriously going to advocate hitting a child with something like this?  I will tell you now, if I find out anyone is using a rod to hit a child with, they had better hope the police get there before I do.

love,

Sopranette

Did you ever read the Psalms where David wrote:  "Thy rod and they staff, they comfort me."?  The rod and staff were used to give direction, to pull the lambs back from danger.  They were used to beat predators...
Shepherds did not use the rod to beat their sheep.

Would you spank your children to prevent them from getting hurt really badly.  To keep them from playing with the stove or a knife, etc?  Are you for or against corporal punishment?

: twd  Sun Oct 29, 2006 - 12:15:17
The problem is that we have lost the distinction between appropriate physical correction and physical abuse, so that the first is assumed by many to be automatically the second.  That is, to use the technical, psychological term, hogwash.

Excellent!

: w8ing4daybreak  Sat Sep 27, 2008 - 10:34:22

: sopranette  Fri Sep 26, 2008 - 12:06:11
The modern equivilant of a rod is a metal bar.  Are you seriously going to advocate hitting a child with something like this?  I will tell you now, if I find out anyone is using a rod to hit a child with, they had better hope the police get there before I do.

love,

Sopranette

Did you ever read the Psalms where David wrote:  "Thy rod and they staff, they comfort me."?  The rod and staff were used to give direction, to pull the lambs back from danger.  They were used to beat predators...
Shepherds did not use the rod to beat their sheep.

Good point, W8ing.  Thanks. My problem is that people continue to use Proverbs as commandments.  They are not.  "Raise up your child in the way he should go, and he will not depart from it", just says teach your child.  It never promises a child will never depart from it.  All Proverbs are are useful, wise teachings, never commandments.

love,

Sopranette

: Gary  Sat Sep 27, 2008 - 14:43:23

: chosenone  Sat Sep 27, 2008 - 14:18:38

: w8ing4daybreak  Sat Sep 27, 2008 - 10:34:22

: sopranette  Fri Sep 26, 2008 - 12:06:11
The modern equivilant of a rod is a metal bar.  Are you seriously going to advocate hitting a child with something like this?  I will tell you now, if I find out anyone is using a rod to hit a child with, they had better hope the police get there before I do.

love,

Sopranette

Did you ever read the Psalms where David wrote:  "Thy rod and they staff, they comfort me."?  The rod and staff were used to give direction, to pull the lambs back from danger.  They were used to beat predators...
Shepherds did not use the rod to beat their sheep.

Thank you SO MUCH for posting this, I was going to post this very same thing. They didnt hit their sheep, only used the rod to guide them if they were going off track. They didnt beat them, so how come we are suppose to beat/hit our kids?

Beating and spanking are different.  Like I said before, if you want to go by Super Nanny, by all means go ahead.  I believe that the bible speaks of physical discipline and while my kids are young, I will use it.

Smacking a child is the same as hitting a child. Where do you draw the line? How many times are you allowed to hit them.Are you 'Biblically' allowed to hit several times? Are you allowed to use a rod, a cane, a belt?
Gary, if you are going to obey the Bible as you see it, then you should be using a rod to hit your children and not a hand. What many seem to forget is that NO WHERE in the Bible as far as I can see, does it mention using a hand to hit a child, it only mentions a rod, so why do you smack them?

I dont know how you can justify hitting anyone, child or adult, and where does physical abuse begin and end?. If you hit/smacked your wife, she would be within her rights to call the police. If you hit someone in the street, you could be arrested for assult. So how come it is OK to hit your children, and how come you dont use a rod if you think the Bible says you should and not your hand?   

Yeah Gary... how come that??   ::whistle::

Rod


Strong's Hebrew Definition for # 07626



07626   //  jbv  //  shebet   //  shay'-bet  // 

from an unused root probably meaning to branch off; TWOT - 2314a; n m

AV - tribe 140, rod 34, sceptre 10, staff 2, misc 4; 190

1) rod, staff, branch, offshoot, club, sceptre, tribe
1a) rod, staff
1b) shaft (of spear, dart)
1c) club (of shepherd's implement)
1d) truncheon, sceptre (mark of authority)
1e) clan, tribe

: kensington  Fri Sep 26, 2008 - 12:12:20
The proverbs are there as instruction and to guide us in all things concerning God and life.

If you cannot trust the Proverbs, then you certainly can't trust some "Child care professional" who got their education at some liberal college that probably never mentioned a Holy and righteous God to them in the FOUR years they learned to care for the child that GOD GAVE TO YOU to raise.

Putting the responsibility of "experience" and "guidance" for our children's future and eternity on to someone we don't know, educated by someone we never met, so that we can take our hands off of what God gave us to to do is very irresponsible.

I had a respected, published Dr tell me once... "No one is more of an expert with your child than you"...  which says it all for me.  Child care people don't tell me how to raise my child, I tell them.

And if a spanking is violence in your home, then you have no business spanking your child, you need to realize that you did not take GOD'S FULL counsel into consideration and go back to the drawing board.  

The "ROD" ...   was not the STAFF or LARGE STICK that you spank with.. it was as a switch... a reed or stalk of growth by the side of the river...    And I know from experience as a child, a rod or switch on the buttock of a kid with pants on, will make them jump... it's not abuse.   It stings...  but not nearly as much as the sting of spiritual death will should you neglect to be the parent that God has called you to be in life.  People need to grow up.  

A few years ago... We had a great uproar about the American kid who was getting spanked in Singapore for his crimes...  Hey...  if you go to Singapore where they cane you, you don't need a gun to walk the streets at night.  The parental respect is off the charts.  Just a thought.

The fact that a Doctor told you that no one is more of an expert on your child than you is true to a point, but there still are many terrible parents out there who are definately not experts on how to raise their children, and are inconsistant, hit them for every little tiny thing, and their children are still badly behaved.In my experience, many kids whose parents inflict corporal punishment on them, grow up resentful and angry.Kids who are hot a lot, often tend to hit other children.
The Bible tells us to discipline our children, but if we cant think of the many ways to do this without hitting/beating them then it dosnt say much for us. Consistent, firm, loving discipline with boundaries set doesnt need to involve hitting.if you can do this without hitting, then why hit them? There are so many other ways.
As for the word 'rod' there are several meanings/translations for the word rod in the Bible, and I will post them when I have them to hand.I stil come back to the use and meaning of the word rod in the 23rd psalm, it was never meant for hittng but for guiding and leading.

I have friends who never hit their children and they grew up to be polite really nice and well bahaved kids. Others kids whose parents hit/smacked them a lot were naughtly and badly behaved.So what does this say? It often doesnt work.
Those of you who say smacking is ok, would you use a belt, a cane or something else? My husbands mum(a Christian) used to beat him with the buckle end of a belt and to think of it makes me cringe.

: bemark  Sat Sep 27, 2008 - 20:12:14
Rod


Strong's Hebrew Definition for # 07626



07626   //  jbv  //  shebet   //  shay'-bet  // 

from an unused root probably meaning to branch off; TWOT - 2314a; n m

AV - tribe 140, rod 34, sceptre 10, staff 2, misc 4; 190

1) rod, staff, branch, offshoot, club, sceptre, tribe
1a) rod, staff
1b) shaft (of spear, dart)
1c) club (of shepherd's implement)
1d) truncheon, sceptre (mark of authority)
1e) clan, tribe

Thanks bemark, you beat me to doing this, it could put a whole new meaning on the word rod as used in the Bible especially with 1d the mark of authority. It could well mean that we are to use our authority to discipline our children and not an actual rod at all.To me this would flow much more with the character of God as revealed in Christ. God treats us with loving firmness and patience, not in a threatening, way at all. Souldnt we treat our children in the way that God treats us?

I really think that this quote of spare the rod etc has been used over the centuries to advocate beating of children in many cases.The same as the submission of wives has been used to make them a sort of slave when it was never meant to mean that.

I know someone (a Christian) whose wife made him hit his kids with some sort of fairly light wooden implement (she was very very bossy and domineering) and she did it also, and he hated doing it. Now his kids are adults they are quite rebellious, and he nows says with hindsight and having seen how many other methods there are to discipline kids that he wished he had never done it and it wasnt neccessary.

Yeah... well, I have a sister who NEVER spanked her child when he was growing up, they reasoned with him, and talked to him, and gave him time outs... they did all the right things according to your rule book... and He is doing 16 years in the Tennesee State Pen.  So.... Blah, Blah, Blah...

I raised 7 kids...  I used spanking as a form (one form) of discipline for deliberate disobedience... I spanked all of my kids,  and My son has his masters in Med. Technology and runs a lab in a Hospital. My Girl is a marketing exec for a large company... my other son is a hard working dad of 3 boys who will be spanked if they don't mind, my next son is a Marine honorable serving His country, my next son is away at his first year of College... doing very well after playing 4 years of Football, (Ranked 1st in the region and 6th Longsnapper in the country)  and being a Christian leader in his school government.  and the team, respected and missed by peers and teachers.... studying Criminal law.  My next son is a Junior in high school who who also is a leader in STUCO and took 3rd as MR PHS..   excels at his job and is beloved by his friends and their parents for his quick wit and good manners.  My next son, is an outspoken evangelist for His school and friends at the age of 15, and he tested in the top 1% of kids across the US last year...

So....  I think I'll land my vote on the side of "flog em daily, whether they need it or not!"

The thing is about your stories and experiences... you are always going to run into someone has experienced more, seen more and has just as good or better evidence than you.  Like me!  Peace.  ::tippinghat::

: chosenone  Sat Sep 27, 2008 - 20:21:54

: kensington  Fri Sep 26, 2008 - 12:12:20
The proverbs are there as instruction and to guide us in all things concerning God and life.

If you cannot trust the Proverbs, then you certainly can't trust some "Child care professional" who got their education at some liberal college that probably never mentioned a Holy and righteous God to them in the FOUR years they learned to care for the child that GOD GAVE TO YOU to raise.

Putting the responsibility of "experience" and "guidance" for our children's future and eternity on to someone we don't know, educated by someone we never met, so that we can take our hands off of what God gave us to to do is very irresponsible.

I had a respected, published Dr tell me once... "No one is more of an expert with your child than you"...  which says it all for me.  Child care people don't tell me how to raise my child, I tell them.

And if a spanking is violence in your home, then you have no business spanking your child, you need to realize that you did not take GOD'S FULL counsel into consideration and go back to the drawing board. 

The "ROD" ...   was not the STAFF or LARGE STICK that you spank with.. it was as a switch... a reed or stalk of growth by the side of the river...    And I know from experience as a child, a rod or switch on the buttock of a kid with pants on, will make them jump... it's not abuse.   It stings...  but not nearly as much as the sting of spiritual death will should you neglect to be the parent that God has called you to be in life.  People need to grow up. 

A few years ago... We had a great uproar about the American kid who was getting spanked in Singapore for his crimes...  Hey...  if you go to Singapore where they cane you, you don't need a gun to walk the streets at night.  The parental respect is off the charts.  Just a thought.

The fact that a Doctor told you that no one is more of an expert on your child than you is true to a point, but there still are many terrible parents out there who are definately not experts on how to raise their children, and are inconsistant, hit them for every little tiny thing, and their children are still badly behaved.In my experience, many kids whose parents inflict corporal punishment on them, grow up resentful and angry.Kids who are hot a lot, often tend to hit other children.
The Bible tells us to discipline our children, but if we cant think of the many ways to do this without hitting/beating them then it dosnt say much for us. Consistent, firm, loving discipline with boundaries set doesnt need to involve hitting.if you can do this without hitting, then why hit them? There are so many other ways.
As for the word 'rod' there are several meanings/translations for the word rod in the Bible, and I will post them when I have them to hand.I stil come back to the use and meaning of the word rod in the 23rd psalm, it was never meant for hittng but for guiding and leading.

I have friends who never hit their children and they grew up to be polite really nice and well bahaved kids. Others kids whose parents hit/smacked them a lot were naughtly and badly behaved.So what does this say? It often doesnt work.
Those of you who say smacking is ok, would you use a belt, a cane or something else? My husbands mum(a Christian) used to beat him with the buckle end of a belt and to think of it makes me cringe.

I know many kids who receive talking to's who end up as losers growing up, and far more who grow up as functioning well rounded adults who were spanked.  My dad used a belt, I turned out fine. 

: kensington  Sat Sep 27, 2008 - 20:41:29
Yeah... well, I have a sister who NEVER spanked her child when he was growing up, they reasoned with him, and talked to him, and gave him time outs... they did all the right things according to your rule book... and He is doing 16 years in the Tennesee State Pen.  So.... Blah, Blah, Blah...

I raised 7 kids...  I used spanking as a form (one form) of discipline for deliberate disobedience... I spanked all of my kids,  and My son has his masters in Med. Technology and runs a lab in a Hospital. My Girl is a marketing exec for a large company... my other son is a hard working dad of 3 boys who will be spanked if they don't mind, my next son is a Marine honorable serving His country, my next son is away at his first year of College... doing very well after playing 4 years of Football, (Ranked 1st in the region and 6th Longsnapper in the country)  and being a Christian leader in his school government.  and the team, respected and missed by peers and teachers.... studying Criminal law.  My next son is a Junior in high school who who also is a leader in STUCO and took 3rd as MR PHS..   excels at his job and is beloved by his friends and their parents for his quick wit and good manners.  My next son, is an outspoken evangelist for His school and friends at the age of 15, and he tested in the top 1% of kids across the US last year...

So....  I think I'll land my vote on the side of "flog em daily, whether they need it or not!"

The thing is about your stories and experiences... you are always going to run into someone has experienced more, seen more and has just as good or better evidence than you.  Like me!  Peace.  ::tippinghat::

Well done with your children, but of course you dont know if they would have turned out as well if you hadnt spanked them.
Cant agree that you have seen more, experienced more etc than me however. Believe me, I have seen A LOT and experienced A LOT!
My kids are also doing really well and I wasnt even a christian when  they were very small, but firm and loving discipline and clear boundaries is what is needed in my opinion, it doesnt need to be physical.

Also I will ask you as well, why do you smack and not use the rod if that is what you all say the Bible says? I cant understand that.

: chosenone  Sat Sep 27, 2008 - 20:02:27

: Gary  Sat Sep 27, 2008 - 14:43:23

: chosenone  Sat Sep 27, 2008 - 14:18:38

: w8ing4daybreak  Sat Sep 27, 2008 - 10:34:22

: sopranette  Fri Sep 26, 2008 - 12:06:11
The modern equivilant of a rod is a metal bar.  Are you seriously going to advocate hitting a child with something like this?  I will tell you now, if I find out anyone is using a rod to hit a child with, they had better hope the police get there before I do.

love,

Sopranette

Did you ever read the Psalms where David wrote:  "Thy rod and they staff, they comfort me."?  The rod and staff were used to give direction, to pull the lambs back from danger.  They were used to beat predators...
Shepherds did not use the rod to beat their sheep.

Thank you SO MUCH for posting this, I was going to post this very same thing. They didnt hit their sheep, only used the rod to guide them if they were going off track. They didnt beat them, so how come we are suppose to beat/hit our kids?

Beating and spanking are different.  Like I said before, if you want to go by Super Nanny, by all means go ahead.  I believe that the bible speaks of physical discipline and while my kids are young, I will use it.

Smacking a child is the same as hitting a child. Where do you draw the line? How many times are you allowed to hit them.Are you 'Biblically' allowed to hit several times? Are you allowed to use a rod, a cane, a belt?
Gary, if you are going to obey the Bible as you see it, then you should be using a rod to hit your children and not a hand. What many seem to forget is that NO WHERE in the Bible as far as I can see, does it mention using a hand to hit a child, it only mentions a rod, so why do you smack them?

I dont know how you can justify hitting anyone, child or adult, and where does physical abuse begin and end?. If you hit/smacked your wife, she would be within her rights to call the police. If you hit someone in the street, you could be arrested for assult. So how come it is OK to hit your children, and how come you dont use a rod if you think the Bible says you should and not your hand?   

Physical abuse starts with physical abuse.  Discipline is an entirely different matter.  You can cling to the wisdom of man if you like, I will do as I believe God's Word shows.

If the definition of a rod is a switch (small piece of timber), yep, have had that one again.

But I thought Proverbs were wise sayings and not commandments.  I use what works and follow the spirit of the wise saying.

: Gary  Sat Sep 27, 2008 - 20:53:54

: chosenone  Sat Sep 27, 2008 - 20:21:54

: kensington  Fri Sep 26, 2008 - 12:12:20
The proverbs are there as instruction and to guide us in all things concerning God and life.

If you cannot trust the Proverbs, then you certainly can't trust some "Child care professional" who got their education at some liberal college that probably never mentioned a Holy and righteous God to them in the FOUR years they learned to care for the child that GOD GAVE TO YOU to raise.

Putting the responsibility of "experience" and "guidance" for our children's future and eternity on to someone we don't know, educated by someone we never met, so that we can take our hands off of what God gave us to to do is very irresponsible.

I had a respected, published Dr tell me once... "No one is more of an expert with your child than you"...  which says it all for me.  Child care people don't tell me how to raise my child, I tell them.

And if a spanking is violence in your home, then you have no business spanking your child, you need to realize that you did not take GOD'S FULL counsel into consideration and go back to the drawing board. 

The "ROD" ...   was not the STAFF or LARGE STICK that you spank with.. it was as a switch... a reed or stalk of growth by the side of the river...    And I know from experience as a child, a rod or switch on the buttock of a kid with pants on, will make them jump... it's not abuse.   It stings...  but not nearly as much as the sting of spiritual death will should you neglect to be the parent that God has called you to be in life.  People need to grow up. 

A few years ago... We had a great uproar about the American kid who was getting spanked in Singapore for his crimes...  Hey...  if you go to Singapore where they cane you, you don't need a gun to walk the streets at night.  The parental respect is off the charts.  Just a thought.

The fact that a Doctor told you that no one is more of an expert on your child than you is true to a point, but there still are many terrible parents out there who are definately not experts on how to raise their children, and are inconsistant, hit them for every little tiny thing, and their children are still badly behaved.In my experience, many kids whose parents inflict corporal punishment on them, grow up resentful and angry.Kids who are hot a lot, often tend to hit other children.
The Bible tells us to discipline our children, but if we cant think of the many ways to do this without hitting/beating them then it dosnt say much for us. Consistent, firm, loving discipline with boundaries set doesnt need to involve hitting.if you can do this without hitting, then why hit them? There are so many other ways.
As for the word 'rod' there are several meanings/translations for the word rod in the Bible, and I will post them when I have them to hand.I stil come back to the use and meaning of the word rod in the 23rd psalm, it was never meant for hittng but for guiding and leading.

I have friends who never hit their children and they grew up to be polite really nice and well bahaved kids. Others kids whose parents hit/smacked them a lot were naughtly and badly behaved.So what does this say? It often doesnt work.
Those of you who say smacking is ok, would you use a belt, a cane or something else? My husbands mum(a Christian) used to beat him with the buckle end of a belt and to think of it makes me cringe.

I know many kids who receive talking to's who end up as losers growing up, and far more who grow up as functioning well rounded adults who were spanked.  My dad used a belt, I turned out fine. 

You always hear this ie "well my dad gave me the belt and it never did me any harm" Its often said by people who you can tell were harmed by beatings of this type but cant see it.
As for saying that those who were spanked being more well rounded people, this isnt my experience, in fact the opposite.   

: chosenone  Sat Sep 27, 2008 - 20:59:06

: Gary  Sat Sep 27, 2008 - 20:53:54

: chosenone  Sat Sep 27, 2008 - 20:21:54

: kensington  Fri Sep 26, 2008 - 12:12:20
The proverbs are there as instruction and to guide us in all things concerning God and life.

If you cannot trust the Proverbs, then you certainly can't trust some "Child care professional" who got their education at some liberal college that probably never mentioned a Holy and righteous God to them in the FOUR years they learned to care for the child that GOD GAVE TO YOU to raise.

Putting the responsibility of "experience" and "guidance" for our children's future and eternity on to someone we don't know, educated by someone we never met, so that we can take our hands off of what God gave us to to do is very irresponsible.

I had a respected, published Dr tell me once... "No one is more of an expert with your child than you"...  which says it all for me.  Child care people don't tell me how to raise my child, I tell them.

And if a spanking is violence in your home, then you have no business spanking your child, you need to realize that you did not take GOD'S FULL counsel into consideration and go back to the drawing board. 

The "ROD" ...   was not the STAFF or LARGE STICK that you spank with.. it was as a switch... a reed or stalk of growth by the side of the river...    And I know from experience as a child, a rod or switch on the buttock of a kid with pants on, will make them jump... it's not abuse.   It stings...  but not nearly as much as the sting of spiritual death will should you neglect to be the parent that God has called you to be in life.  People need to grow up. 

A few years ago... We had a great uproar about the American kid who was getting spanked in Singapore for his crimes...  Hey...  if you go to Singapore where they cane you, you don't need a gun to walk the streets at night.  The parental respect is off the charts.  Just a thought.

The fact that a Doctor told you that no one is more of an expert on your child than you is true to a point, but there still are many terrible parents out there who are definately not experts on how to raise their children, and are inconsistant, hit them for every little tiny thing, and their children are still badly behaved.In my experience, many kids whose parents inflict corporal punishment on them, grow up resentful and angry.Kids who are hot a lot, often tend to hit other children.
The Bible tells us to discipline our children, but if we cant think of the many ways to do this without hitting/beating them then it dosnt say much for us. Consistent, firm, loving discipline with boundaries set doesnt need to involve hitting.if you can do this without hitting, then why hit them? There are so many other ways.
As for the word 'rod' there are several meanings/translations for the word rod in the Bible, and I will post them when I have them to hand.I stil come back to the use and meaning of the word rod in the 23rd psalm, it was never meant for hittng but for guiding and leading.

I have friends who never hit their children and they grew up to be polite really nice and well bahaved kids. Others kids whose parents hit/smacked them a lot were naughtly and badly behaved.So what does this say? It often doesnt work.
Those of you who say smacking is ok, would you use a belt, a cane or something else? My husbands mum(a Christian) used to beat him with the buckle end of a belt and to think of it makes me cringe.

I know many kids who receive talking to's who end up as losers growing up, and far more who grow up as functioning well rounded adults who were spanked.  My dad used a belt, I turned out fine. 

You always hear this ie "well my dad gave me the belt and it never did me any harm" Its often said by people who you can tell were harmed by beatings of this type but cant see it.
As for saying that those who were spanked being more well rounded people, this isnt my experience, in fact the opposite.   

My experience is different than yours by far.  And you "always" nothing.  No one "always" and "nevers."

Well, we will have to agree to differ then on this one. The Spirit of God to me is against fear,(apart from appropriate Godly fear of his majesty) which is basically what hitting produces, It make the child obey out of fear of punishment, and not because they
are doing what is right.
Why use hitting if other things work? I cant understand that at all.
My kids are all adults now, and lovely young people, so you really dont need to hit them to produce kind caring citizens. One is just going to a christian ministry to study full time for a year. I only say this to show that smacking or hitting isnt vital to a childs well being or future Christian walk.

: chosenone  Sat Sep 27, 2008 - 20:54:56

: kensington  Sat Sep 27, 2008 - 20:41:29
Yeah... well, I have a sister who NEVER spanked her child when he was growing up, they reasoned with him, and talked to him, and gave him time outs... they did all the right things according to your rule book... and He is doing 16 years in the Tennesee State Pen.  So.... Blah, Blah, Blah...

I raised 7 kids...  I used spanking as a form (one form) of discipline for deliberate disobedience... I spanked all of my kids,  and My son has his masters in Med. Technology and runs a lab in a Hospital. My Girl is a marketing exec for a large company... my other son is a hard working dad of 3 boys who will be spanked if they don't mind, my next son is a Marine honorable serving His country, my next son is away at his first year of College... doing very well after playing 4 years of Football, (Ranked 1st in the region and 6th Longsnapper in the country)  and being a Christian leader in his school government.  and the team, respected and missed by peers and teachers.... studying Criminal law.  My next son is a Junior in high school who who also is a leader in STUCO and took 3rd as MR PHS..   excels at his job and is beloved by his friends and their parents for his quick wit and good manners.  My next son, is an outspoken evangelist for His school and friends at the age of 15, and he tested in the top 1% of kids across the US last year...

So....  I think I'll land my vote on the side of "flog em daily, whether they need it or not!"

The thing is about your stories and experiences... you are always going to run into someone has experienced more, seen more and has just as good or better evidence than you.  Like me!  Peace.  ::tippinghat::

Well done with your children, but of course you dont know if they would have turned out as well if you hadnt spanked them.
Cant agree that you have seen more, experienced more etc than me however. Believe me, I have seen A LOT and experienced A LOT!
My kids are also doing really well and I wasnt even a christian when  they were very small, but firm and loving discipline and clear boundaries is what is needed in my opinion, it doesnt need to be physical.

Also I will ask you as well, why do you smack and not use the rod if that is what you all say the Bible says? I cant understand that.

I was not saved when my kids were small either...  Not at all...  and I don't "SMACK" my kids... I spanked them.  I used a belt, or a paddle.  You use terms like "abuse"... "smack" ... to make it sound like abuse when it is and was not. I didn't just hit my kids or whale on them at a whim...  We talked to them, we explained to them why we believed what we believed, our responsibility to God as their parent, how serious we took that role and then we spanked them for deliberate disobedience...

Why DO YOU try to make those who consider spanking... "NOT SMACKING" or "BEATING" or Abusing suitable for training a child in the way he should go.... appear as abusers?  Is it to excuse your lazy attitude towards your own responsibility in raising your own children?  Don't accuse me of smacking my child again... or abuse. 

You have turned discussing into verbal attacking and false accusations....  You implied Gary lied when He said his dad did him no harm by spanking.  It often happens this way... some one thinks the way the do it is the ONLY way to do it, so the rest of us must be jacked up.  PS.... I would use a switch also if I did not have a belt or a paddle, I'm not hurting my hand trying to spank the bottom of a disobedient child by hitting his jeans...   

You say your way is the way... but I gave an example of someone who used your way, and her son is in prison... and then you say my kids are OK in your opinion BUT I don't know if it was due to discipline...  Which leads me to believe, if your kids are OK as you portray.... you do not know that it is solely because you omitted spanking either...   You can't.   Your claim is just that... a claim, you have no proof. 

I was disciplined in a Godly way by my father     who spanked me with his hand    wood and also a jug cord

Always on the bottom and never over the top    The reason he used the jug cord was because we used to throw the other away rofl

Really he was a big softy    and still is  you can hit and then you can hit    if you know what I mean


We used to have the cane at school   I got it maybe 2 or 3 times
Then it was debolished    and then anarchy took over
Then the government passed the anti smacking bill through parlament      against the majority rule of the country ::pondering::  really a demonic plan to set children against parents and vice versa

Its witchcraft in action and normally those who vote for it have a new age agenda

Gods ways are not always our ways     but they are better

: kensington  Sat Sep 27, 2008 - 23:07:36

: chosenone  Sat Sep 27, 2008 - 20:54:56

: kensington  Sat Sep 27, 2008 - 20:41:29
Yeah... well, I have a sister who NEVER spanked her child when he was growing up, they reasoned with him, and talked to him, and gave him time outs... they did all the right things according to your rule book... and He is doing 16 years in the Tennesee State Pen.  So.... Blah, Blah, Blah...

I raised 7 kids...  I used spanking as a form (one form) of discipline for deliberate disobedience... I spanked all of my kids,  and My son has his masters in Med. Technology and runs a lab in a Hospital. My Girl is a marketing exec for a large company... my other son is a hard working dad of 3 boys who will be spanked if they don't mind, my next son is a Marine honorable serving His country, my next son is away at his first year of College... doing very well after playing 4 years of Football, (Ranked 1st in the region and 6th Longsnapper in the country)  and being a Christian leader in his school government.  and the team, respected and missed by peers and teachers.... studying Criminal law.  My next son is a Junior in high school who who also is a leader in STUCO and took 3rd as MR PHS..   excels at his job and is beloved by his friends and their parents for his quick wit and good manners.  My next son, is an outspoken evangelist for His school and friends at the age of 15, and he tested in the top 1% of kids across the US last year...

So....  I think I'll land my vote on the side of "flog em daily, whether they need it or not!"

The thing is about your stories and experiences... you are always going to run into someone has experienced more, seen more and has just as good or better evidence than you.  Like me!  Peace.  ::tippinghat::

Well done with your children, but of course you dont know if they would have turned out as well if you hadnt spanked them.
Cant agree that you have seen more, experienced more etc than me however. Believe me, I have seen A LOT and experienced A LOT!
My kids are also doing really well and I wasnt even a christian when  they were very small, but firm and loving discipline and clear boundaries is what is needed in my opinion, it doesnt need to be physical.

Also I will ask you as well, why do you smack and not use the rod if that is what you all say the Bible says? I cant understand that.

I was not saved when my kids were small either...  Not at all...  and I don't "SMACK" my kids... I spanked them.  I used a belt, or a paddle.  You use terms like "abuse"... "smack" ... to make it sound like abuse when it is and was not. I didn't just hit my kids or whale on them at a whim...  We talked to them, we explained to them why we believed what we believed, our responsibility to God as their parent, how serious we took that role and then we spanked them for deliberate disobedience...

Why DO YOU try to make those who consider spanking... "NOT SMACKING" or "BEATING" or Abusing suitable for training a child in the way he should go.... appear as abusers?  Is it to excuse your lazy attitude towards your own responsibility in raising your own children?  Don't accuse me of smacking my child again... or abuse. 

You have turned discussing into verbal attacking and false accusations....  You implied Gary lied when He said his dad did him no harm by spanking.  It often happens this way... some one thinks the way the do it is the ONLY way to do it, so the rest of us must be jacked up.  PS.... I would use a switch also if I did not have a belt or a paddle, I'm not hurting my hand trying to spank the bottom of a disobedient child by hitting his jeans...   

You say your way is the way... but I gave an example of someone who used your way, and her son is in prison... and then you say my kids are OK in your opinion BUT I don't know if it was due to discipline...  Which leads me to believe, if your kids are OK as you portray.... you do not know that it is solely because you omitted spanking either...   You can't.   Your claim is just that... a claim, you have no proof. 

I'm sorry of I annoyed you, but in my opinion using a belt, stick or anything to repeatedly hit their children is just plain wrong.You call hitting/beating  them in this way spanking so as to make it sound more palatable.

It isnt me who has always said how lovely and well behaved my kids are. it was always other people. You also accuse me of having a lazy attitude towards bring my children up, which is totally and utterly wrong, They had a loving firm upbringing and they had plenty of love and knew and were taught right from wrong. I was quite strict with them in many ways such as what I allowed them to watch on tele or on films. They are polite and well behaved to others and friendly young adults.
This isnt because they has the very occasional smack, my youngest for example probably got smacked no more than 4 or 5 times in her entire life, no it was discilpine done consistently day to day,and they didnt need to be spanked, smacked or hit or whatever else you like to call it.
Its a good job that you dont live in the uk, you would may well have been arrested and charged for what you did to your children. Smacking isnt against the law here but hitting with belts, canes would be seen as abuse, and in my opinion rightly so. In my opinion it just isnt neccessary, so why do some continue to do it?   Think about it, there are so many other ways that dont involve physical violence.

: chosenone  Sun Sep 28, 2008 - 03:52:21

: kensington  Sat Sep 27, 2008 - 23:07:36

: chosenone  Sat Sep 27, 2008 - 20:54:56

: kensington  Sat Sep 27, 2008 - 20:41:29
Yeah... well, I have a sister who NEVER spanked her child when he was growing up, they reasoned with him, and talked to him, and gave him time outs... they did all the right things according to your rule book... and He is doing 16 years in the Tennesee State Pen.  So.... Blah, Blah, Blah...

I raised 7 kids...   I used spanking as a form (one form) of discipline for deliberate disobedience... I spanked all of my kids,  and My son has his masters in Med. Technology and runs a lab in a Hospital. My Girl is a marketing exec for a large company... my other son is a hard working dad of 3 boys who will be spanked if they don't mind, my next son is a Marine honorable serving His country, my next son is away at his first year of College... doing very well after playing 4 years of Football, (Ranked 1st in the region and 6th Longsnapper in the country)  and being a Christian leader in his school government.  and the team, respected and missed by peers and teachers.... studying Criminal law.  My next son is a Junior in high school who who also is a leader in STUCO and took 3rd as MR PHS..   excels at his job and is beloved by his friends and their parents for his quick wit and good manners.  My next son, is an outspoken evangelist for His school and friends at the age of 15, and he tested in the top 1% of kids across the US last year...

So....  I think I'll land my vote on the side of "flog em daily, whether they need it or not!"

The thing is about your stories and experiences... you are always going to run into someone has experienced more, seen more and has just as good or better evidence than you.  Like me!  Peace.  ::tippinghat::

Well done with your children, but of course you dont know if they would have turned out as well if you hadnt spanked them.
Cant agree that you have seen more, experienced more etc than me however. Believe me, I have seen A LOT and experienced A LOT!
My kids are also doing really well and I wasnt even a christian when  they were very small, but firm and loving discipline and clear boundaries is what is needed in my opinion, it doesnt need to be physical.

Also I will ask you as well, why do you smack and not use the rod if that is what you all say the Bible says? I cant understand that.

I was not saved when my kids were small either...  Not at all...  and I don't "SMACK" my kids... I spanked them.  I used a belt, or a paddle.  You use terms like "abuse"... "smack" ... to make it sound like abuse when it is and was not. I didn't just hit my kids or whale on them at a whim...  We talked to them, we explained to them why we believed what we believed, our responsibility to God as their parent, how serious we took that role and then we spanked them for deliberate disobedience...

Why DO YOU try to make those who consider spanking... "NOT SMACKING" or "BEATING" or Abusing suitable for training a child in the way he should go.... appear as abusers?  Is it to excuse your lazy attitude towards your own responsibility in raising your own children?  Don't accuse me of smacking my child again... or abuse. 

You have turned discussing into verbal attacking and false accusations....  You implied Gary lied when He said his dad did him no harm by spanking.  It often happens this way... some one thinks the way the do it is the ONLY way to do it, so the rest of us must be jacked up.  PS.... I would use a switch also if I did not have a belt or a paddle, I'm not hurting my hand trying to spank the bottom of a disobedient child by hitting his jeans...   

You say your way is the way... but I gave an example of someone who used your way, and her son is in prison... and then you say my kids are OK in your opinion BUT I don't know if it was due to discipline...  Which leads me to believe, if your kids are OK as you portray.... you do not know that it is solely because you omitted spanking either...   You can't.   Your claim is just that... a claim, you have no proof. 

I'm sorry of I annoyed you, but in my opinion using a belt, stick or anything to repeatedly hit their children is just plain wrong.You call hitting/beating  them in this way spanking so as to make it sound more palatable.

It isnt me who has always said how lovely and well behaved my kids are. it was always other people. You also accuse me of having a lazy attitude towards bring my children up, which is totally and utterly wrong, They had a loving firm upbringing and they had plenty of love and knew and were taught right from wrong. I was quite strict with them in many ways such as what I allowed them to watch on tele or on films. They are polite and well behaved to others and friendly young adults.
This isnt because they has the very occasional smack, my youngest for example probably got smacked no more than 4 or 5 times in her entire life, no it was discilpine done consistently day to day,and they didnt need to be spanked, smacked or hit or whatever else you like to call it.
Its a good job that you dont live in the uk, you would may well have been arrested and charged for what you did to your children. Smacking isnt against the law here but hitting with belts, canes would be seen as abuse, and in my opinion rightly so. In my opinion it just isnt neccessary, so why do some continue to do it?   Think about it, there are so many other ways that dont involve physical violence.

You have a right to have any opinion you want, however, your opinion is not biblical, and I believe it is contrary to God's Word.

This isnt because they has the very occasional smack, my youngest for example probably got smacked no more than 4 or 5 times in her entire life, no it was discilpine done consistently day to day,and they didnt need to be spanked, smacked or hit or whatever else you like to call it

WAIT ONE MINUTE... HOLD ON... YOU Sit here post and after post and accuse the rest of us of abuse, of smacking our kids, and claiming how you don't,  didn't, and wouldnt... and your kids turned out so well for it... it JUST PLAIN NOT NEEDED...  and then you speak that your child got SMACKED 4 or 5 times??  What is smacked anyway?  Where you just haul off and hit them without rhyme or reason at the moment?  Careless hitting?  A fast slap in the face? 

That my friend... makes you a hypocrite.   For you do hit your children, you have hit your children... and the rest of us are just fine as parents. 

It's funny too... because my kids were probably spanked less then yours who was smacked 4 or 5 times was!!   rofl

Its a good job that you dont live in the uk, you would may well have been arrested and charged for what you did to your children. Smacking isnt against the law here but hitting with belts, canes would be seen as abuse, and in my opinion rightly so. I

Yeah...  I agree it is a good "thing" I don't live in the UK... considering the many other unGodly things they have embraced over the years.... I would not like it there. 

I agree with Gary, and as you said... "It is your opinion"... that is a personal thing, and it has nothing to do with God or His word to us.  Basically, you follow your own mind, and I choose to follow the word of God. 

: kensington  Sun Sep 28, 2008 - 14:24:29
Its a good job that you dont live in the uk, you would may well have been arrested and charged for what you did to your children. Smacking isnt against the law here but hitting with belts, canes would be seen as abuse, and in my opinion rightly so. I

Yeah...  I agree it is a good "thing" I don't live in the UK... considering the many other unGodly things they have embraced over the years.... I would not like it there. 

I agree with Gary, and as you said... "It is your opinion"... that is a personal thing, and it has nothing to do with God or His word to us.  Basically, you follow your own mind, and I choose to follow the word of God. 

The Uk isnt bad, most of our bad things have come from the usa anyway. i love living here, you cant beat it.

: Gary  Sat Sep 27, 2008 - 14:44:55

: w8ing4daybreak  Sat Sep 27, 2008 - 10:34:22

: sopranette  Fri Sep 26, 2008 - 12:06:11
The modern equivilant of a rod is a metal bar.  Are you seriously going to advocate hitting a child with something like this?  I will tell you now, if I find out anyone is using a rod to hit a child with, they had better hope the police get there before I do.

love,

Sopranette

Did you ever read the Psalms where David wrote:  "Thy rod and they staff, they comfort me."?  The rod and staff were used to give direction, to pull the lambs back from danger.  They were used to beat predators...
Shepherds did not use the rod to beat their sheep.

Would you spank your children to prevent them from getting hurt really badly.  To keep them from playing with the stove or a knife, etc?  Are you for or against corporal punishment?

Gary, I was spanked several times as a child.  I don't think it affected me negatively at all.
I only have one child.  She's 16.  I don't think she's been spanked her since she was about 3 or 4.  I don't think spanking is wrong, but I think you have to do what works for each kid.  Some kids need spankings more than others.

I think it's important that kids are disciplined appropriately.  There are other forms of discipline that work well for certain kids.  Use what works for your kids. 
Actually, I have been fortunate.  My daughter has a good head on her shoulders and has needs very little correction.

: chosenone  Sun Sep 28, 2008 - 15:07:53

: kensington  Sun Sep 28, 2008 - 14:24:29
Its a good job that you dont live in the uk, you would may well have been arrested and charged for what you did to your children. Smacking isnt against the law here but hitting with belts, canes would be seen as abuse, and in my opinion rightly so. I

Yeah...  I agree it is a good "thing" I don't live in the UK... considering the many other unGodly things they have embraced over the years.... I would not like it there. 

I agree with Gary, and as you said... "It is your opinion"... that is a personal thing, and it has nothing to do with God or His word to us.  Basically, you follow your own mind, and I choose to follow the word of God. 

The Uk isnt bad, most of our bad things have come from the usa anyway. i love living here, you cant beat it.

Sure you can...  Living in the USA beats them all!

: kensington  Sun Sep 28, 2008 - 21:26:55

: chosenone  Sun Sep 28, 2008 - 15:07:53

: kensington  Sun Sep 28, 2008 - 14:24:29
Its a good job that you dont live in the uk, you would may well have been arrested and charged for what you did to your children. Smacking isnt against the law here but hitting with belts, canes would be seen as abuse, and in my opinion rightly so. I

Yeah...  I agree it is a good "thing" I don't live in the UK... considering the many other unGodly things they have embraced over the years.... I would not like it there. 

I agree with Gary, and as you said... "It is your opinion"... that is a personal thing, and it has nothing to do with God or His word to us.  Basically, you follow your own mind, and I choose to follow the word of God. 

The Uk isnt bad, most of our bad things have come from the usa anyway. i love living here, you cant beat it.

Sure you can...  Living in the USA beats them all!

The USA has embraced far more dodgy things than the UK over the years, and people from your country love the UK thats why so many come here every year for their holidays!. My hubby is from the other side of the world and he would never go back.
Well at least we both love our countries, so we are both happy.

One thing that I have noticed from the posts with the subject of discipline, is the vastly wide differences of opinion even among those who think that some form of corporal punishment is ok.
There are those who think that the occasional tap on the hand is acceptable down to those who regularly beat their kids with belts, sticks etc. This brings out a very large difference of what the Bible says we are to do.
By the way, a spanking is using hands, not other implements. Using sticks, paddles, belts is a beating which of course sounds more unpallatable but that is what it is. So if you beat your kids, then at least have the honesty to say so and not call it smacking or spanking.

Hands are proven to be more harmful than objects

Hands that reach out in love and then to punish   it sends a double meaning

Verbal abuse lodges in the soul of a child       it is worse than spanking

: bemark  Mon Sep 29, 2008 - 03:27:44
Hands are proven to be more harmful than objects

Hands that reach out in love and then to punish   it sends a double meaning

Verbal abuse lodges in the soul of a child       it is worse than spanking

You are right about verbal abuse. Any abuse of someone by another is wrong, whether it be physical or verbal.
As for the hands, If I was a child I would far rather have got the occasional smack with the hand than to have been hit with a belt or rod or whatever.Being hit with a belt (in my husbands childhood with the buckle end)or rod or any other implement could do real actual bodily harm.

: chosenone  Mon Sep 29, 2008 - 02:27:05

: kensington  Sun Sep 28, 2008 - 21:26:55

: chosenone  Sun Sep 28, 2008 - 15:07:53

: kensington  Sun Sep 28, 2008 - 14:24:29
Its a good job that you dont live in the uk, you would may well have been arrested and charged for what you did to your children. Smacking isnt against the law here but hitting with belts, canes would be seen as abuse, and in my opinion rightly so. I

Yeah...  I agree it is a good "thing" I don't live in the UK... considering the many other unGodly things they have embraced over the years.... I would not like it there. 

I agree with Gary, and as you said... "It is your opinion"... that is a personal thing, and it has nothing to do with God or His word to us.  Basically, you follow your own mind, and I choose to follow the word of God. 

The Uk isnt bad, most of our bad things have come from the usa anyway. i love living here, you cant beat it.

Sure you can...  Living in the USA beats them all!

The USA has embraced far more dodgy things than the UK over the years, and people from your country love the UK thats why so many come here every year for their holidays!. My hubby is from the other side of the world and he would never go back.
Well at least we both love our countries, so we are both happy.

One thing that I have noticed from the posts with the subject of discipline, is the vastly wide differences of opinion even among those who think that some form of corporal punishment is ok.
There are those who think that the occasional tap on the hand is acceptable down to those who regularly beat their kids with belts, sticks etc. This brings out a very large difference of what the Bible says we are to do.
By the way, a spanking is using hands, not other implements. Using sticks, paddles, belts is a beating which of course sounds more unpallatable but that is what it is. So if you beat your kids, then at least have the honesty to say so and not call it smacking or spanking.

You say what definitions apply to a word, and then imply others are dishonest if they don't agree with your definitions?

You say what definitions apply to a word, and then imply others are dishonest if they don't agree with your definitions?


Yeah... What he said. 

I noticed you didn't reply to my comment that a couple of my children have been spanked less times than you have "Smacked" your child.  What is your deffinition of "SMACK" anyway?  Is that a whack across the face?  A punch?  Is it just hauling off and hitting anywhere you don't aim at the moment because you are mad?  Do they see it coming?

You smack... but we beat?  Nice.

Hey... Gary... it must be the language barrier... We speak English here in the US.    ::whistle::

By the way, a spanking is using hands, not other implements. Using sticks, paddles, belts is a beating which of course sounds more unpallatable but that is what it is. So if you beat your kids, then at least have the honesty to say so and not call it smacking or spanking.

I'm going to do you a favor I do not owe you...  I am going to be honest with you.  I don't care what they call it where you come from...

But here... In the USA...  A spanking is a spanking, that is the honest term we use.  With a small switch, it's whipping, with a paddle its swats,  but if you tell a kid in the USA they are getting a beating... they would think you were going to be punching them and probably in the face. We don't do that. I'd never tell my child I was going to beat him.

It may be the language barrier between us...  but we do not beat our kids.  To smack is to hit in the face also here in most places.  To hit might imply "somehwere" on the body.   But, a spanking does not mean the hands here.  You judge what you do not know, based on what you have decided is better for someone in another country.  And imply our country is worse...  our music is bad... but NOT as bad as what comes out of the UK and is sent here that we have to keep our kids from. 

Honesty is a good thing.  I'm glad I could be honest with you.  And now perhaps you can stop these arrogant  false accusations towards us and act like the Christian you claim to be.  If you are from the UK and call it that where you are from... fine.  But, stop insulting us and telling us we don't know what we are talking about for our own country and children.  Its so very rude.

: kensington  Mon Sep 29, 2008 - 11:34:40
Hey... Gary... it must be the language barrier... We speak English here in the US.    ::whistle::

I think that even you know the difference between a smack on the bottom and a beating with a belt or rod surely.
Insults wont  make any difference, you need to admit to the fact that you beat your children (some of you) and be honest about it. if you think it is Biblical them why do you try to denay it or make it sound more palatable?

The problem is that I don't think you know the difference...  I'm fine with what I know. 

AND YOU STILL HAVE NOT ACKNOWLEDGED THAT A COUPLE OF MY KIDS WERE SPANKED LESS TIMES THAN YOU "SMACKED" YOURS.... why is that?

"Smacked" is to slap in the face.  (Where I come from)

: kensington  Mon Sep 29, 2008 - 11:48:52
The problem is that I don't think you know the difference...  I'm fine with what I know. 

AND YOU STILL HAVE NOT ACKNOWLEDGED THAT A COUPLE OF MY KIDS WERE SPANKED LESS TIMES THAN YOU "SMACKED" YOURS.... why is that?

"Smacked" is to slap in the face.  (Where I come from)

You could be right about the different use of words.
As I understand it here in the UK
using the hand to hit the bottom or hand or whatever, would be a smack.
Smacking several times with the hand would be a spanking.
Using a rod/belt or whatever to repeatedly hit a child would  be a beating or whipping.

I think thats good that you hardly ever smacked two of your children, it shows that it isnt really necessary.
The ones that trouble me are the ones who repeatedly use instruments such as belts rods sticks to hit/beat (or whatever it is called) their children.

: chosenone  Mon Sep 29, 2008 - 12:11:21

: kensington  Mon Sep 29, 2008 - 11:48:52
The problem is that I don't think you know the difference...  I'm fine with what I know. 

AND YOU STILL HAVE NOT ACKNOWLEDGED THAT A COUPLE OF MY KIDS WERE SPANKED LESS TIMES THAN YOU "SMACKED" YOURS.... why is that?

"Smacked" is to slap in the face.  (Where I come from)

You could be right about the different use of words.
As I understand it here in the UK
using the hand to hit the bottom or hand or whatever, would be a smack.
Smacking several times with the hand would be a spanking.
Using a rod/belt or whatever to repeatedly hit a child would  be a beating or whipping.

I think thats good that you hardly ever smacked two of your children, it shows that it isnt really necessary.
The ones that trouble me are the ones who repeatedly use instruments such as belts rods sticks to hit/beat (or whatever it is called) their children.

The things we do best in the USA are beating our kids with belt rods, sticks, etc; clinging to guns, and clinging to religion. [SARCASM]

: kensington  Mon Sep 29, 2008 - 11:45:59
By the way, a spanking is using hands, not other implements. Using sticks, paddles, belts is a beating which of course sounds more unpallatable but that is what it is. So if you beat your kids, then at least have the honesty to say so and not call it smacking or spanking.

I'm going to do you a favor I do not owe you...  I am going to be honest with you.  I don't care what they call it where you come from...

But here... In the USA...  A spanking is a spanking, that is the honest term we use.  With a small switch, it's whipping, with a paddle its swats,  but if you tell a kid in the USA they are getting a beating... they would think you were going to be punching them and probably in the face. We don't do that. I'd never tell my child I was going to beat him.

It may be the language barrier between us...  but we do not beat our kids.  To smack is to hit in the face also here in most places.  To hit might imply "somehwere" on the body.   But, a spanking does not mean the hands here.  You judge what you do not know, based on what you have decided is better for someone in another country.  And imply our country is worse...  our music is bad... but NOT as bad as what comes out of the UK and is sent here that we have to keep our kids from. 

Honesty is a good thing.  I'm glad I could be honest with you.  And now perhaps you can stop these arrogant  false accusations towards us and act like the Christian you claim to be.  If you are from the UK and call it that where you are from... fine.  But, stop insulting us and telling us we don't know what we are talking about for our own country and children.  Its so very rude.

By the way both the UK and the uSA have their fair share of bad music, television, films, gun crimes and so many other things so I really dont think you can say that we are worse. There are many evil and wrong things in both countries as well as many good things.

: Gary  Mon Sep 29, 2008 - 12:12:53

: chosenone  Mon Sep 29, 2008 - 12:11:21

: kensington  Mon Sep 29, 2008 - 11:48:52
The problem is that I don't think you know the difference...  I'm fine with what I know. 

AND YOU STILL HAVE NOT ACKNOWLEDGED THAT A COUPLE OF MY KIDS WERE SPANKED LESS TIMES THAN YOU "SMACKED" YOURS.... why is that?

"Smacked" is to slap in the face.  (Where I come from)

You could be right about the different use of words.
As I understand it here in the UK
using the hand to hit the bottom or hand or whatever, would be a smack.
Smacking several times with the hand would be a spanking.
Using a rod/belt or whatever to repeatedly hit a child would  be a beating or whipping.

I think thats good that you hardly ever smacked two of your children, it shows that it isnt really necessary.
The ones that trouble me are the ones who repeatedly use instruments such as belts rods sticks to hit/beat (or whatever it is called) their children.

The things we do best in the USA are beating our kids with belt rods, sticks, etc; clinging to guns, and clinging to religion. [SARCASM]

Wel you certainly do better than us in the gun crime field thats for sure, but that has come over here as well, although a shooting is still relatively rare thank good ness.

: chosenone  Mon Sep 29, 2008 - 11:46:44

: kensington  Mon Sep 29, 2008 - 11:34:40
Hey... Gary... it must be the language barrier... We speak English here in the US.    ::whistle::

I think that even you know the difference between a smack on the bottom and a beating with a belt or rod surely.
Insults wont  make any difference, you need to admit to the fact that you beat your children (some of you) and be honest about it. if you think it is Biblical them why do you try to denay it or make it sound more palatable?

You are being insulting by implying that others are being dishonest.

"I think thats good that you hardly ever smacked two of your children, it shows that it isnt really necessary.
The ones that trouble me are the ones who repeatedly use instruments such as belts rods sticks to hit/beat (or whatever it is called) their children."


It's called loving your child enough to care about their souls while there is time.  And you CAN NOT possibly know what is or isn't really necessary when it comes to my kids. 

You keep saying "I think"... and you added "The ones that trouble me"....  Like it is your opinion that is the bottom line for us all.  It's not.  I don't need you to tell me what you think is "good"... I have a Bible, I read it... I have a God whom I follow and who's instruction I love.  "

You are just another someone who judged what you do not know.   Why do you set yourself up as above others in deed?  Why do you imply that what you approve of, is what we should be doing?  It is insulting.

Daggnabbit!  My son did not clean his room again.... NOW I am going to have to BEAT him!  ::doh:: 

OH THE HUMANITY!!   ::cryingtears::

Peeps become a little hot tempered when it comes to certain things...  religion, politics, how we raise our kids...
::pokingwithstick:: ::arguing:: ::swordfight::  
Where's the love?

I LOVE my kids...   ::groupprayer:: ... Does that count?

: kensington  Mon Sep 29, 2008 - 12:47:05
"I think thats good that you hardly ever smacked two of your children, it shows that it isnt really necessary.
The ones that trouble me are the ones who repeatedly use instruments such as belts rods sticks to hit/beat (or whatever it is called) their children."


It's called loving your child enough to care about their souls while there is time.  And you CAN NOT possibly know what is or isn't really necessary when it comes to my kids. 

You keep saying "I think"... and you added "The ones that trouble me"....  Like it is your opinion that is the bottom line for us all.  It's not.  I don't need you to tell me what you think is "good"... I have a Bible, I read it... I have a God whom I follow and who's instruction I love.  "

You are just another someone who judged what you do not know.   Why do you set yourself up as above others in deed?  Why do you imply that what you approve of, is what we should be doing?  It is insulting.

Thats why I say 'in my opinion'. Thats just what it is, my opinion, and not set in stone for everyone.
My kids are saved and believe and love Jesus, so they are saved in the only way we can be saved, through Jesus, and of  course I care about their souls.
The only thing I was trying to say is that there are ways to show loving discipline apart from physically hitting them.Just because I dodnt think that hitting them helps doesnt mean that I dont care about them or havent shown them Gods love and correction.
It has been implied that I dont care enough about them or their souls to use physical punishment. My adult children are a testament to not needing to do this. With consistant loving correction and rules and bondaries set, it really isnt neccessary. There are other ways.

 

You know you are really getting on my nerves with that junk.   You imply we are criminals for spanking or liars.... 

You speak as though your parenting skills are perfected... "My adult children are a testament to not needing to do this. With consistant loving correction and rules and bondaries set, it really isnt neccessary. There are other ways."

"you need to admit to the fact that you beat your children (some of you) and be honest about it. if you think it is Biblical them why do you try to denay it or make it sound more palatable?"

To say "IF" you think it is Biblical??  HELLO ... you are in denial, it is biblical, it's in the BIBLE, that is what makes it BIBLICAL... which I am beginning to think you don't read when you add this thread with what you say on marriage.... 

But, fine... you have found your own way to perfection other than submission to the word of GOD.  It's MY OPINION that your condescending tone is just plain irritating to say the least...  I imagine that you are so Holy that your friends see a glow come from you when you walk down the street.  How nice.

Your adult kids are not the ONLY adult kids in the world...   As much as that may SURPRISE you...  there are many many others who can attest to the Biblical way being right.  So give it a rest. 

BTW... if you are going to use words like "boundaries", "consistent", and "necessary" to lecture on the parenting skills of others.. you really should learn to spell them. 

: kensington  Tue Sep 30, 2008 - 00:07:07
You know you are really getting on my nerves with that junk.   You imply we are criminals for spanking or liars.... 

You speak as though your parenting skills are perfected... "My adult children are a testament to not needing to do this. With consistant loving correction and rules and bondaries set, it really isnt neccessary. There are other ways."

"you need to admit to the fact that you beat your children (some of you) and be honest about it. if you think it is Biblical them why do you try to denay it or make it sound more palatable?"

To say "IF" you think it is Biblical??  HELLO ... you are in denial, it is biblical, it's in the BIBLE, that is what makes it BIBLICAL... which I am beginning to think you don't read when you add this thread with what you say on marriage.... 

But, fine... you have found your own way to perfection other than submission to the word of GOD.  It's MY OPINION that your condescending tone is just plain irritating to say the least...  I imagine that you are so Holy that your friends see a glow come from you when you walk down the street.  How nice.

Your adult kids are not the ONLY adult kids in the world...   As much as that may SURPRISE you...  there are many many others who can attest to the Biblical way being right.  So give it a rest. 

BTW... if you are going to use words like "boundaries", "consistent", and "necessary" to lecture on the parenting skills of others.. you really should learn to spell them. 

In case you havent noticed, it is you that is consistantly putting me down actually, and being rude about me, but thats ok, I cant stop you doing that.
I am definately not holier than thou I can assure you, I am well aware that I need God and His sons forgiveness daily.
You accuse me of not obeying the Bible, well it is debateable as to what the Bible actually teaches about physical punishment, there are verses that seem to say the opposite of what you say.
So, if I dont spell a word right, that makes me wrong does it, and its ok to critisise me for that? You are making yourself out  to be holier than thou by implying that because you spell a certain word right and I may spell it wrong then you are somehow letter than me?
I think you may need to examine why you are so touchy about this subject. If you are so sure that you are doing the right thing then why are you so defensive?

Not sure what you mean about the marriage bit, but just to say I have the greatest guy in the world and we have a really fun, happy and blessed marriage. is that OK?   

Folks, please watch the tone.

Chosenone,

You have said you feel that the bible is debate-able on physical discipline of children being biblical and recommended.  I would appreciate it if you shared the verses that you believe makes this debate-able.

: Gary  Tue Sep 30, 2008 - 09:10:13
Chosenone,

You have said you feel that the bible is debate-able on physical discipline of children being biblical and recommended.  I would appreciate it if you shared the verses that you believe makes this debate-able.

Ok Gary I will write the relevant verses and other stuff when I get time in the next few days. Some of them have already been posted on these forums, and many can be read on other internet sites, but I will write a few things here.

Spanking adults.   There is a fetish.....

: zoonance  Tue Sep 30, 2008 - 17:14:44
Spanking adults.   There is a fetish.....

Okay.... Who snitched??  When I was a kid, you could get spanked for being a tattle tale!

If I apologize, will I skip the spankings!   (I don't get it but some people apparently get into that.  Maybe I should go home and spank the Mrs. and see what happens)

: zoonance  Tue Sep 30, 2008 - 17:27:19
If I apologize, will I skip the spankings!   (I don't get it but some people apparently get into that.  Maybe I should go home and spank the Mrs. and see what happens)

Don't be surprised if you have to buy her something really EXPENSIVE afterward!  I know the big guy here comes prepared with gifts!  ::clappingoverhead::

Chuck Norris says spanking your kids is OK.

: Gary  Fri Oct 03, 2008 - 16:41:41
Chuck Norris says spanking your kids is OK.

Forgive me for seeming ignorant but who is Chuck Norris(I am from the Uk, so maybe that is why I have never heard of him)

: chosenone  Fri Oct 03, 2008 - 21:26:57

: Gary  Fri Oct 03, 2008 - 16:41:41
Chuck Norris says spanking your kids is OK.

Forgive me for seeming ignorant but who is Chuck Norris(I am from the Uk, so maybe that is why I have never heard of him)

I'm a bit clueless myself, but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Norris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Norris)

If you go to www.Google.com (http://www.google.com) and type in "Find Chuck Norris"  and then Click I'm Feeling Lucky, see what happens... :)

: w8ing4daybreak  Fri Oct 03, 2008 - 22:34:52

: chosenone  Fri Oct 03, 2008 - 21:26:57

: Gary  Fri Oct 03, 2008 - 16:41:41
Chuck Norris says spanking your kids is OK.

Forgive me for seeming ignorant but who is Chuck Norris(I am from the Uk, so maybe that is why I have never heard of him)

I'm a bit clueless myself, but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Norris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Norris)

If you go to www.Google.com (http://www.google.com) and type in "Find Chuck Norris"  and then Click I'm Feeling Lucky, see what happens... :)

Thanks for that info!!!
Not sure is I am worried about what Chuck Norris says. he is heavily into Martial arts (nearly typed marital arts lol) and arent Christians suposed to keep away from martial arts???

: chosenone  Sat Oct 04, 2008 - 01:46:13

: w8ing4daybreak  Fri Oct 03, 2008 - 22:34:52

: chosenone  Fri Oct 03, 2008 - 21:26:57

: Gary  Fri Oct 03, 2008 - 16:41:41
Chuck Norris says spanking your kids is OK.

Forgive me for seeming ignorant but who is Chuck Norris(I am from the Uk, so maybe that is why I have never heard of him)

I'm a bit clueless myself, but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Norris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Norris)

If you go to www.Google.com (http://www.google.com) and type in "Find Chuck Norris"  and then Click I'm Feeling Lucky, see what happens... :)

Thanks for that info!!!
Not sure is I am worried about what Chuck Norris says. he is heavily into Martial arts (nearly typed marital arts lol) and arent Christians suposed to keep away from martial arts???

It's just a joke, Choseone.  It's a game we play here in the states.  Chuck Norris is most famous for playing the all American good guy. He has said he is a born again Christian, btw.

love,

Sopranette

: Gary  Fri Oct 03, 2008 - 16:41:41
Chuck Norris says spanking your kids is OK.

rofl

: chosenone  Sat Oct 04, 2008 - 01:46:13
arent Christians suposed to keep away from martial arts???

No.

: OldDad  Sat Oct 04, 2008 - 09:33:36

: chosenone  Sat Oct 04, 2008 - 01:46:13
arent Christians suposed to keep away from martial arts???

No.

Don't some of the martial arts include New Age Philosophy or Eastern Religion?
I've heard people say that Christians shouldn't practice Yoga for that reason.
I personally believe it's possible to separate the two...
I guess this has nothing to do with spanking.  :)

: w8ing4daybreak  Sat Oct 04, 2008 - 11:15:38

: OldDad  Sat Oct 04, 2008 - 09:33:36

: chosenone  Sat Oct 04, 2008 - 01:46:13
arent Christians suposed to keep away from martial arts???

No.

Don't some of the martial arts include New Age Philosophy or Eastern Religion?
I've heard people say that Christians shouldn't practice Yoga for that reason.
I personally believe it's possible to separate the two...
I guess this has nothing to do with spanking.  :)

I agree with you, and I would have been one that cautioned Christians against yoga.

: w8ing4daybreak  Sat Oct 04, 2008 - 11:15:38

: OldDad  Sat Oct 04, 2008 - 09:33:36

: chosenone  Sat Oct 04, 2008 - 01:46:13
arent Christians suposed to keep away from martial arts???

No.

Don't some of the martial arts include New Age Philosophy or Eastern Religion?
I've heard people say that Christians shouldn't practice Yoga for that reason.
I personally believe it's possible to separate the two...
I guess this has nothing to do with spanking.  :)

I think you do have to be very careful about what you are involved in with martial arts. There is a well known book (I have leant it out and cant remember what it is called) about a guy who was heavily involved in one of the martial arts, in fact he was the best in the world at one point, and how it affected him, and how he bacame a Christian and came to know its evil side. if I remeber its title I will post it , it is very mind blowing what it is really all about and scary stuff.

the debatability (is that a word ? ???) of spanking being biblical i think lies in the use of the Psalms and Proverbs as the basis for theological choices.  The genre of these books does not in some folks lend itself to making strong theological assertions outside of other verses backing it up.

gotta run now, i'll add my other 2.5c later

: chosenone  Tue Sep 30, 2008 - 15:47:42

: Gary  Tue Sep 30, 2008 - 09:10:13
Chosenone,

You have said you feel that the bible is debate-able on physical discipline of children being biblical and recommended.  I would appreciate it if you shared the verses that you believe makes this debate-able.

Ok Gary I will write the relevant verses and other stuff when I get time in the next few days. Some of them have already been posted on these forums, and many can be read on other internet sites, but I will write a few things here.

Chosenone,

Will you be getting to the verses that make spanking "debatable?"

: Gary  Mon Oct 27, 2008 - 11:51:38

: chosenone  Tue Sep 30, 2008 - 15:47:42

: Gary  Tue Sep 30, 2008 - 09:10:13
Chosenone,

You have said you feel that the bible is debate-able on physical discipline of children being biblical and recommended.  I would appreciate it if you shared the verses that you believe makes this debate-able.

Ok Gary I will write the relevant verses and other stuff when I get time in the next few days. Some of them have already been posted on these forums, and many can be read on other internet sites, but I will write a few things here.

Chosenone,

Will you be getting to the verses that make spanking "debatable?"

will do.have been away and havent long been back so havent had a channce to do it yet!

BUMP

: Gary  Tue Nov 11, 2008 - 21:06:35
BUMP

As I still havent had a chance to do this study, I suggest you look up the word used for 'rod' in a really good concordance and see where else in the Bible the word is used, it is amazing as it isnt used to mean an actual stick or rod at all, but a general rule of correction without hitting.

i think if you're still hitting your child at 4 years old then you're probably just a being a bad parent...
they should know your voice by then...
you can have a conversation with a four year old. spanking is being lazy or angry...


my mom tried spanking me at 14 while i was laughing at her... that was the last time... i now look at women like they're all suppose to be in charge and know what to do.... not the truth.


there are some very violent, vengeful people in this world who've learned it from their parents...

I agree spanking but not that hard spank. It should be in the butt and with precautions to discipline intention only otherwise the child will put grudge in his heart when he grow up. Of course parents should explain to children why he was spanked. 

: Adrian  Thu Feb 01, 2007 - 20:56:06

Corporations draw attention from the small business, thus leaving said small business to rot in bankruptcy. It's a cold-hearted way of doing business if you ask me. I like to use the cancer analogy. Stealing nutrients from healthy cells in an egotistical, sociopathic way. Eventually killing the entire body. How decieving of those CEOs to do that to people. Especially Nike, moving to Indonesia where they only have to pay their workers 2 cents a day, leaving American workers unemployed, just to make a few extra bucks. Which they obviously don't need. That doesn't seem very Christian. More Satanic. Self righteous and justified only in greed.
If you're going to justify spanking with examples of succesful people, don't use the avarice dwelling, demeening, business *******.

I was thinking the same thing.  What on earth has CEO of corporations got to do with the price of fish and chips?   What a truly ridiculous thread, gauging the effectiveness of spanking by interviewing CEO's!!

Big deal.  Why don't you interview serial killers,  rapists, child molesters and the like and ask them if they were spanked?  You'll find that the majority of them were also administered physical punishment.    To say that the success of individuals to achieve CEO positions is due to them being spanked as children is laughable.  This reminds me of this idiom that demonstrates illogical fallacy.  I can't remember it exactly,  but it goes something like this:

I love picnics.
Ants love picnics.
Therefore I love ants.

Because a bunch of CEO's were spanked does not prove anything.  Like I said, you could find the same results for criminals.  I could start a thread saying:

"Let me watch tv mommy and daddy"

And then I could show the results of a survey that found that CEO's all had one thing in common.  They were all allowed to watch tv when they were children.   We of course can all see how ridiculous that is.  But then someone puts up an equally ridiculous thread with an equally spurious notion and most around here accept it.

Also, this nonsense of "punishment versus abuse".  Now don't get me wrong.  I believe that for very young children, a light swat of your hand on their backside suffices.  This is the only thing that young children respond to sometimes.  But that is all I believe in, nothing else.

What I find objectionable is some around here listing hitting children with various implements as "punishment not abuse".  Nobody has mentioned school corporal punishment.  And I don't care what anyone says, that was abuse plain and simple.

I still have burned in my memory one poor child holding out his hand whilst the teacher thrashed him 6 times with a  leather strap.  The screams and cries that followed I'll never forget.  If that is "appropriate  punishment" as defined by Christianity, then I'd dump Christianity in a flash.  Because I'll never agree with that.  I heard also horror stories from other kids in other schools that used the cane.  Apparently that hurt even more.

But I suppose that was all fair and "righteous",  wasn't it?

I have spanked my kids as a last resort. I do it very rarely and it is effective as a last ditch effort to bring them in to line. But never in public (much as I would like to at times) as it is against the law here to smack at all, in any way.
The law was brought in due to the high rate of child abuse and mortality as a result of people bashing shildren. Unfortunately the number of deaths hasn't dropped due to the law change, and I didn't expect it too. The same people are still abusing their kids.
I do think that there is a difference btween spanking (smacking as it is known here) and beating a child. The sad thing is that not everyone has the same ideas about when they are overstepping the mark. Some people think that leaving their kids wounded and bruised after a round with the jug cord or a closed fist is ok. It is most definately not. It leaves physical and emotional scars that can affect that child forever.

: anniejane  Tue Feb 24, 2009 - 01:53:59
I have spanked my kids as a last resort. I do it very rarely and it is effective as a last ditch effort to bring them in to line. But never in public (much as I would like to at times) as it is against the law here to smack at all, in any way.
The law was brought in due to the high rate of child abuse and mortality as a result of people bashing shildren. Unfortunately the number of deaths hasn't dropped due to the law change, and I didn't expect it too. The same people are still abusing their kids.
I do think that there is a difference btween spanking (smacking as it is known here) and beating a child. The sad thing is that not everyone has the same ideas about when they are overstepping the mark. Some people think that leaving their kids wounded and bruised after a round with the jug cord or a closed fist is ok. It is most definately not. It leaves physical and emotional scars that can affect that child forever.

Not spanking at all leaves even more scars generally.

This thread was started in the fall of 2006... since that time we've learned a whole lot more about CEOs. The argument that spanking helped make them who they are takes on a whole new meaning now that we have a more accurate look at major corporations atitudes and practices.

Our children are young adults on their own now.  We reserved spanking for being in-your-face defiant and safety matters and I sill wish I had spanked less.

: bliz  Sun Apr 05, 2009 - 17:35:47

This thread was started in the fall of 2006... since that time we've learned a whole lot more about CEOs. The argument that spanking helped make them who they are takes on a whole new meaning now that we have a more accurate look at major corporations atitudes and practices.

Our children are young adults on their own now.  We reserved spanking for being in-your-face defiant and safety matters and I sill wish I had spanked less.

It would be illogical to lump all CEO's into the category of a few. I'm a CEO, does that make me bad with money, overpaid or wasteful? Sometimes companies don't make good hires. People make mistakes. If a company thinks one CEO is worth millions, that's their right. If the stockholders disagree, they can vote for something different. As of now, our society and market is still mostly free. The corruption and wastefulness in government make corporate America look like ancient monks! Value and protect your freedom to incorporate with others into a business and to work to achieve your dreams. Government taking over business is a communist's dream but a nightmare come true for those who appreciate their freedom.

I think many people spank too often, and it is no longer effective. But I also believe that a swat once in awhile is needed to drive a point home and "wake them up." It should not leave bruises (and certainly nothing worse!). A spanking is a far cry from a beating, and can be done with love. I remember a country song, about "Daddy's Hands." She talks of how sometimes they were gentle, sometimes they were hard, but there was always love in daddy's hands. Very true. I, by the way, was never spanked. Time outs were enough for me--I hated them!

: bbn4kids  Mon Apr 06, 2009 - 12:41:05
I remember a country song, about "Daddy's Hands." She talks of how sometimes they were gentle, sometimes they were hard, but there was always love in daddy's hands.

According to left-wing Liberal Sociologists, that's a symptom of Stockholm Syndrome and should be probable cause to have Child Protective Services dig deeper.  ::frown::

Yes, just an example of how I never agree with any left-wing liberal groups. Or right-wing ones, for that matter. They always take everything to an extreme. Back in the "good old days", not only parents disciplined their children, but the entire community could. There were fewer teen pregnancies, fewer drugs in our schools, fewer bullies on the playgrounds...Now, I would never, ever, consider using an implement for a spanking. And it should be a last resort. But sometimes they just happen as a knee jerk reaction to a dangerous situation. Say, your nephew in his walker takes some metal keys and goes up to an open outlet...yes, I slapped the keys from his hand. I suppose I should have been taken in to the police, or investigated by social services? For some kids, just a look is enough. For others, more is needed. One of my brothers-in-law spanked his boys far too much, and they stopped caring about it. So it was pointless. He is not one of my favorite people, and actually kept my sister from taking the kids to church.

All I'm saying is, if something is deadly serious (like running into traffic) and time outs and talks don't work, a swat (NOT a beating) may help. The alternative, a dead child, would be much worse.

Oh, and as far as social services go, in my opinion they are a joke. My step grand-niece is physically and mentally abused by her mother, to the point of using the trash can in her room for a toilet as she is yelled at if she pops her nose out the door to use the bathroom. And social services could care less. All they care about is pushing the paperwork through (and that statement is direct from a social worker who quit social services for that very reason.) And said step-niece would NEVER have ended up in the system. My husband and I would have taken her (and still would) in a heart-beat. My nephew (working on a divorce from this woman) would call and call, and was just told to keep calling. That is the best advice he got.

: bbn4kids  Mon Apr 06, 2009 - 14:37:07
Back in the "good old days", not only parents disciplined their children, but the entire community could. 

Yep, my butt was on the receiving end of the Principal's paddle more than a few times and I turned out to be perfectly stable.  ::bueno::  ::help::  ::crazy::

: bliz  Sun Apr 05, 2009 - 17:35:47

This thread was started in the fall of 2006... since that time we've learned a whole lot more about CEOs. The argument that spanking helped make them who they are takes on a whole new meaning now that we have a more accurate look at major corporations atitudes and practices.

Our children are young adults on their own now.  We reserved spanking for being in-your-face defiant and safety matters and I sill wish I had spanked less.

Let's go by what God's Word says, not by what happens to CEO's.

I don't believe in spanking... just beatings and hangings."
There is never a need to "spank" a child.  Spanking teaches association.  Someone does something wrong, they deserve physical violence.  Not a good connection, IMO.  The furthest I come to "spanking" is when they are trying to sick things in light sockets... "Sticking a toy in a light socket = pain." Good association.
Spanking is not always "evil" per se, and certainly isn't a "gateway" to abuse, but I believe it's more for a parent to act out his/ her frustration.  My parents, whom I love dearly, spanked me until I was a teenager.  It's more tramatic than anything.  I would never dream of hitting my kids in anger. 
Bottom line: Spanking is not necessarily horrific, just horrifically unnecessary.   ::applause::

: Syyd Seven  Thu May 21, 2009 - 23:22:34
I don't believe in spanking... just beatings and hangings."
There is never a need to "spank" a child.  Spanking teaches association.  Someone does something wrong, they deserve physical violence.  Not a good connection, IMO.  The furthest I come to "spanking" is when they are trying to sick things in light sockets... "Sticking a toy in a light socket = pain." Good association.
Spanking is not always "evil" per se, and certainly isn't a "gateway" to abuse, but I believe it's more for a parent to act out his/ her frustration.  My parents, whom I love dearly, spanked me until I was a teenager.  It's more tramatic than anything.  I would never dream of hitting my kids in anger. 
Bottom line: Spanking is not necessarily horrific, just horrifically unnecessary.   ::applause::

Throw out the bible then.

I'm 17 so I don't get spanked anymore. But my dad would give me a spanking for fighting with my sister over the tv. My sister's daughter just turned 2..terrible two. I didn't read every part in this thread but...when can spanking get out of control???How hard is too hard??Cause I'm concerned for my niece. She's so tiny.I'm not saying I agree or disagree with spanking.I just wanna know how much is too much.

: zoonance  Fri Oct 20, 2006 - 17:41:38
The frustrated child psychologists wince at such a finding and warn that spanking "slows mental development and hinders achievement.

The smaller they are, the smaller is needed for correction.  The smaller the bad trait/behaviour, the smaller the correction needed.

Hence the term "nip it in the bud".  Jump on the little things IMMEDIATELY, with just a little correction.  Yes, you can play catch up, but that is unpleasant and hard on everyone around.  Get it early, and get it light, and get it easily.  It's really just that simple.

I have one son...and from time to time (about once every nine months or so) he got a spanking for something.

His behavior became so erratic and non-compliant that it was as if he was wanting the spanking for willful defiance. (the main and only reason a spanking is usually merited in my house)

He was given three swats with the palm of my hand on the part of his body made for recieving just such swats.

The thing about it though is that I usually hit him harder when showing him love and affection...giving him a hug at the same time...and a kiss.

But the spanking is more about ceremony than severity...and he would cry like I had killed him and beat him half to death...

To this day my 11yo is pretty well behaved...yeah he gets into trouble from time to time but nothing that deserves a spanking...grounding yes, spanking no. He is unusually honest with his answers as well...deceit isn't a strong suit of his at all...kinda strange too considering most kids (including myself) aren't that honest. He will tell on himself in a heartbeat...weird...but OK.


His mother though doesn't get respect from him unless I tell him to give it to her. She regularly hollers and screams and jumps up and down and he might sleepily say, "What?????" after a tantrum of fifteen minutes is thrown by her. I do tell him often to respect his mother...but it is difficult when she refuses to give respect to anyone including herself.

Discipline is not just punishment...it is a system of both rewards for good, positive behavior as well as punishment for poor behavior. And it doesn't neccesarily involve large sums of cash either....just a personal investment.

After my children receive physical discipline, they come with an outpouring of love for me.  Then we have a great time of just closeness and talking about all sorts of things.  I love it.  So do they.  If your heart is wrong in giving it, they will see this.  If it is wrong, it won't be received correctly.  Teach the heart in all things, not the actions, because the actions follow the heart.  I don't discipline for acitons or deeds.  Never have, and never will.  I discipline the heart, and tell them this, and we discuss the heart in it all.  I also tell them when I see growth in their heart in an area in which I had to discipline them in the past.  Do not flatter, but speak the truth in encouragement, exhorting them to continue on growing in it.  It's a blast.  Physical discipline after about 5 or 6 years old is virtually non existant at our place, as the heart should have the foundations laid by that time, as my wife and I see it.

<< link deleted, newbie post >>


Please come back and tell us about the content to the place you posted a link to -- you cannot post links until you've been around a while and had some conversations and other posts.  Sorry 'bout that.

     I remember coming home to my then wife after a long hard day.  Only to be met at the door by an announcement.
     Very shrill voice "You have to beat _____(name hidden to protect the guilty).  I took off my belt.  Took the boy into
      the bedroom.  Used my belt to strike the bed  about six or eight times.  The boy ,my son, cried as if I had really hit him.
      That sort of thing was the biggest reason for our marriage dissolution.  The next t two wives were really wonderful.
       made up for the first one.  Sorry(not very) to digress.  GOD Bless you all.     ::smile::
     

 Do not spank much, but when I have had enough, I get the belt go nuts, and whoever is standing there gets it. All three fighting, after awhile I just snap sometimes. ::noworries:: Rarely though. Boy can they run fast. I think it is good your kids think you are crazy just once in awhile. It keeps them wondering if they should push you or not.

: lightshineon  Tue Oct 13, 2009 - 00:57:02
Do not spank much, but when I have had enough, I get the belt go nuts, and whoever is standing there gets it. All three fighting, after awhile I just snap sometimes. ::noworries:: Rarely though. Boy can they run fast. I think it is good your kids think you are crazy just once in awhile. It keeps them wondering if they should push you or not.

I can just picture them scattering like cockroaches when a light is turned on! rofl rofl

: IloveJesus  Thu Oct 01, 2009 - 19:35:50
I'm 17 so I don't get spanked anymore. But my dad would give me a spanking for fighting with my sister over the tv. My sister's daughter just turned 2..terrible two. I didn't read every part in this thread but...when can spanking get out of control???How hard is too hard??Cause I'm concerned for my niece. She's so tiny.I'm not saying I agree or disagree with spanking.I just wanna know how much is too much.

They need it the most at 2 through 5.

: son of God  Tue Oct 13, 2009 - 22:17:42

: lightshineon  Tue Oct 13, 2009 - 00:57:02
Do not spank much, but when I have had enough, I get the belt go nuts, and whoever is standing there gets it. All three fighting, after awhile I just snap sometimes. ::noworries:: Rarely though. Boy can they run fast. I think it is good your kids think you are crazy just once in awhile. It keeps them wondering if they should push you or not.

I can just picture them scattering like cockroaches when a light is turned on! rofl rofl

The funniest thing that happened when I used a dust pan, now that sounds abusive but, it was a dollar store plastic, and cracked. I am very patient, but it was in the summer, and home air conditoner was broken, then the toliet over flowed. It was about 100 degrees outside, the girls were cranky, I was beyond cranky. The middle daughter was in my bedroom. kind of being out of it. The oldest Amity, and youngest Emily, are the two most stubbron, stong willed ones. Emily was in Amity's room, and spilled her sippy cup on. on Amity's bed. Amity hit Emily, screamed, and hit her back. There is seven years apart in age between oldest, and youngest. The started screaming at each other, my hair was plaster with sweat. I had plunger in my hand, trying to help T-bowl problems, clean the floor ( gross). I at that time decided, my Charity had ended. I found the broken dust pan, and went on a crazy. I went to Amitys room, and she fell on the bed, doingthe defensive hand, arm mode,  the dust pan coud not have hurt her, then I took off after Emily, she was running as fast as her little legs would go. I was chasing her down the hallway, she would turn her head, and say " No mama! no please no!" Allof the sudden, it reminded me of a slasher film, and I started laughing so hard. My little one look scared because I was just laughing like a nut case.  "She said " mama you ok?" I guess she really thought I had lost my mind. I then put them in the van with air conditoner, and we went to some garage sales. I laughed even in the van.  Maybe I did have a break  down of some kind, but the look on Emily's face running down the hallway was so funny, it still makes me laugh.

I got a good laugh reading that!  Thanks.  Real life is stranger than fiction, right?

At a family reunion years ago, when my oldest about about 7, I think, we were going through the line of food at the table, cafeteria style.  I was waiting while the kids/ladies when through, just stiing on the couch.  When my oldest was going to really load his plate up with creamy jello stuff, he looked up at me, stopped dead in his tracks, and placed the serving spoon back.  A few other dads saw this, and commented on it.  They were surprised that I hadn't frowned or anything, yet my son knew that I didn't want him to have more than he had already taken.  They asked how he knew, when I was looking no differently than at the men I was talking to.  I said that he didn't see me smiling, and that was enough.  I smile a whole lot at my kids, they are such blessings.  We have a pile of fun and gut busting laughter together, so if I'm not having a happy look, they tend to think twice about what is afoot.  Frowning or other unpleasant facial expressions are a fairly rare critter around our place.  Thankfully!

 LOL Son truth is stranger than fiction sometimes.  I like your post about your positive reinforcement with kids, and facial expression. That makes sense, and it really made me think.

Be careful, though, LSO: I'm one of those bible thumpers, and because God isn't sufficient, and I haven't had official training, I don't know how to apply the bible to real life.  Don't say that I never warned you!    ::crackup::

: son of God  Fri Oct 16, 2009 - 02:15:05
Be careful, though, LSO: I'm one of those bible thumpers, and because God isn't sufficient, and I haven't had official training, I don't know how to apply the bible to real life.  Don't say that I never warned you!    ::crackup::

No son you are a good guy, who loves Jesus, your wife and kids.

: walker starr  Mon Oct 12, 2009 - 19:22:13


     I remember coming home to my then wife after a long hard day.  Only to be met at the door by an announcement.
     Very shrill voice "You have to beat _____(name hidden to protect the guilty).  I took off my belt.  Took the boy into
      the bedroom.  Used my belt to strike the bed  about six or eight times.  The boy ,my son, cried as if I had really hit him.
      That sort of thing was the biggest reason for our marriage dissolution.  The next t two wives were really wonderful.
       made up for the first one.  Sorry(not very) to digress.  GOD Bless you all.     ::smile::
     

I agree walker starr. My husband used to be beaten with a belt by his mother for quite small things sometimes, and as he was a very sensitive little boy it affected him very deeply. The thought of it makes my blood run cold. The thought of beating my kids with an impliment makes my blood run cold. Hearing people talk about beating their kids with an impliment makes my blood run cold.

My three adult kids are great and lovely and caring people, and they only ever got the smallest number of smacks and that wasnt becuase I though it would do them good but it was when I had had enough. They didnt need that sort of punishment, there were better ways to discipline them without beating /hitting. Children need discipline and they need to know where they are, and I was quite firm with them, but hitting just ISNT necesary in my experience.

: chosenone  Fri Oct 16, 2009 - 17:45:04

: walker starr  Mon Oct 12, 2009 - 19:22:13


     I remember coming home to my then wife after a long hard day.  Only to be met at the door by an announcement.
     Very shrill voice "You have to beat _____(name hidden to protect the guilty).  I took off my belt.  Took the boy into
      the bedroom.  Used my belt to strike the bed  about six or eight times.  The boy ,my son, cried as if I had really hit him.
      That sort of thing was the biggest reason for our marriage dissolution.  The next t two wives were really wonderful.
       made up for the first one.  Sorry(not very) to digress.  GOD Bless you all.     ::smile::
     

I agree walker starr. My husband used to be beaten with a belt by his mother for quite small things sometimes, and as he was a very sensitive little boy it affected him very deeply. The thought of it makes my blood run cold. The thought of beating my kids with an impliment makes my blood run cold. Hearing people talk about beating their kids with an impliment makes my blood run cold.

My three adult kids are great and lovely and caring people, and they only ever got the smallest number of smacks and that wasnt becuase I though it would do them good but it was when I had had enough. They didnt need that sort of punishment, there were better ways to discipline them without beating /hitting. Children need discipline and they need to know where they are, and I was quite firm with them, but hitting just ISNT necesary in my experience.

The dust Pan was just a psycho moment, and I do not spank, maybe once every two years.

: lightshineon  Fri Oct 16, 2009 - 19:49:26

: chosenone  Fri Oct 16, 2009 - 17:45:04

: walker starr  Mon Oct 12, 2009 - 19:22:13


     I remember coming home to my then wife after a long hard day.  Only to be met at the door by an announcement.
     Very shrill voice "You have to beat _____(name hidden to protect the guilty).  I took off my belt.  Took the boy into
      the bedroom.  Used my belt to strike the bed  about six or eight times.  The boy ,my son, cried as if I had really hit him.
      That sort of thing was the biggest reason for our marriage dissolution.  The next t two wives were really wonderful.
       made up for the first one.  Sorry(not very) to digress.  GOD Bless you all.     ::smile::
     

I agree walker Starr. My husband used to be beaten with a belt by his mother for quite small things sometimes, and as he was a very sensitive little boy it affected him very deeply. The thought of it makes my blood run cold. The thought of beating my kids with an implement makes my blood run cold. Hearing people talk about beating their kids with an implement makes my blood run cold.

My three adult kids are great and lovely and caring people, and they only ever got the smallest number of smacks and that wasn't because I though it would do them good but it was when I had had enough. They didn't need that sort of punishment, there were better ways to discipline them without beating /hitting. Children need discipline and they need to know where they are, and I was quite firm with them, but hitting just ISNT necessary in my experience.

The dust Pan was just a psycho moment, and I do not spank, maybe once every two years.

good for you lightshineon. My husbands ex wife made him occasionally spank their kids with a light wooden thing shaped into a whale.It was named wally whale. I jokingly told him that you have probably given them an obsessional  and unnatural fear of whales . He never wanted to do it though preferring better methods of discipline of which there are many to choose from. My husbands mothers told them that they should be beating them with a belt like she did with her 2 boys, but fortunately they didn't take any notice of her. She, (his mother) was treated like this when she was young and she is a mess totally.

: son of God  Fri Oct 09, 2009 - 03:50:45
After my children receive physical discipline, they come with an outpouring of love for me.  Then we have a great time of just closeness and talking about all sorts of things.  I love it.  So do they.  If your heart is wrong in giving it, they will see this.  If it is wrong, it won't be received correctly.  Teach the heart in all things, not the actions, because the actions follow the heart.  I don't discipline for acitons or deeds.  Never have, and never will.  I discipline the heart, and tell them this, and we discuss the heart in it all.  I also tell them when I see growth in their heart in an area in which I had to discipline them in the past.  Do not flatter, but speak the truth in encouragement, exhorting them to continue on growing in it.  It's a blast.  Physical discipline after about 5 or 6 years old is virtually non existant at our place, as the heart should have the foundations laid by that time, as my wife and I see it.

so you have close times after you have beaten them.
You can actually have very close times with children without beating them.
I babysat for a family last night with three kids ages 11,9 and nearly 5. They are extreemly lovely and well behaved children, among the best that I have known. When they misbehave their parents send them to sit on the 'naughty' step for a set time and it really works.They dont need to be hit/beaten to be really nice kids.

: chosenone  Fri Oct 16, 2009 - 17:45:04

: walker starr  Mon Oct 12, 2009 - 19:22:13


     I remember coming home to my then wife after a long hard day.  Only to be met at the door by an announcement.
     Very shrill voice "You have to beat _____(name hidden to protect the guilty).  I took off my belt.  Took the boy into
      the bedroom.  Used my belt to strike the bed  about six or eight times.  The boy ,my son, cried as if I had really hit him.
      That sort of thing was the biggest reason for our marriage dissolution.  The next t two wives were really wonderful.
       made up for the first one.  Sorry(not very) to digress.  GOD Bless you all.     ::smile::
     

I agree walker starr. My husband used to be beaten with a belt by his mother for quite small things sometimes, and as he was a very sensitive little boy it affected him very deeply. The thought of it makes my blood run cold. The thought of beating my kids with an impliment makes my blood run cold. Hearing people talk about beating their kids with an impliment makes my blood run cold.

My three adult kids are great and lovely and caring people, and they only ever got the smallest number of smacks and that wasnt becuase I though it would do them good but it was when I had had enough. They didnt need that sort of punishment, there were better ways to discipline them without beating /hitting. Children need discipline and they need to know where they are, and I was quite firm with them, but hitting just ISNT necesary in my experience.

I have threatened my son with "the belt"...heh heh heh...even snapped it several times...and the first time he looked at me with wide eyed fear in his eyes. (ex wife was always a $!@#$ )...nowadays when I threaten him with "the belt" he starts laughing and wants to snap it back at me...heh heh heh...he gets the fact that it is just a joke..

his spankings always were with the palm of my hands...and he knows it...and his mother is full of baloney...and consequently she has the hardest time getting him to behave.

: chosenone  Sat Oct 17, 2009 - 03:52:42

: son of God  Fri Oct 09, 2009 - 03:50:45
After my children receive physical discipline, they come with an outpouring of love for me.  Then we have a great time of just closeness and talking about all sorts of things.  I love it.  So do they.  If your heart is wrong in giving it, they will see this.  If it is wrong, it won't be received correctly.  Teach the heart in all things, not the actions, because the actions follow the heart.  I don't discipline for acitons or deeds.  Never have, and never will.  I discipline the heart, and tell them this, and we discuss the heart in it all.  I also tell them when I see growth in their heart in an area in which I had to discipline them in the past.  Do not flatter, but speak the truth in encouragement, exhorting them to continue on growing in it.  It's a blast.  Physical discipline after about 5 or 6 years old is virtually non existant at our place, as the heart should have the foundations laid by that time, as my wife and I see it.

so you have close times after you have beaten them.
You can actually have very close times with children without beating them.
I babysat for a family last night with three kids ages 11,9 and nearly 5. They are extreemly lovely and well behaved children, among the best that I have known. When they misbehave their parents send them to sit on the 'naughty' step for a set time and it really works.They dont need to be hit/beaten to be really nice kids.

As the article in the original post shows, a spanking can be good for kids.  There is a fine line between spanking and abuse, but so long as you stay on the right side of the line, your kids will be better off.  Sometimes a "time out" will work, but some times a spanking is needed.  A good parent knows what level of discipline will work for his or her kid for any given infraction, IMHO.

In Christ,
KP

Some kids need it.  If you think all spanking is wrong, you are disagreeing with scripture and not me or this thread.

: chosenone  Sat Oct 17, 2009 - 03:52:42

: son of God  Fri Oct 09, 2009 - 03:50:45
After my children receive physical discipline, they come with an outpouring of love for me.  Then we have a great time of just closeness and talking about all sorts of things.  I love it.  So do they.  If your heart is wrong in giving it, they will see this.  If it is wrong, it won't be received correctly.  Teach the heart in all things, not the actions, because the actions follow the heart.  I don't discipline for acitons or deeds.  Never have, and never will.  I discipline the heart, and tell them this, and we discuss the heart in it all.  I also tell them when I see growth in their heart in an area in which I had to discipline them in the past.  Do not flatter, but speak the truth in encouragement, exhorting them to continue on growing in it.  It's a blast.  Physical discipline after about 5 or 6 years old is virtually non existant at our place, as the heart should have the foundations laid by that time, as my wife and I see it.

so you have close times after you have beaten them.
You can actually have very close times with children without beating them.
I babysat for a family last night with three kids ages 11,9 and nearly 5. They are extreemly lovely and well behaved children, among the best that I have known. When they misbehave their parents send them to sit on the 'naughty' step for a set time and it really works.They dont need to be hit/beaten to be really nice kids.

Beaten is different than spanked, by conotation at the very least.

And yes, if you think that I think that one can't have close times without first having physical discipline, you've missed the content of some of my posts here.  So based upon your assumption regarding my posts, if I don't beat my 18 year old, I don't have any close, great times of sharing.  Your assumption in this thread topic led you to an unsubstantiated leap of conclusion, I think.

What I also see is that if a child doesn't receive corporal discipline, they may still be well behaved for the few parents that know how to manage their kids this way, yet the child comes to adulthood well behaved and a descent person but still having a brash disposition -- a non contrite heart.  They don't know/have never been broken by God, even as they profess Him.  The word says that it is good for a youth to suffer.  A person must have a broken and contrite spirit.  The parent isn't to break the spirit: God is.  Yet they for the most part don't have a clue about this, having never been "shamed" to the extent that physical punishment does.  The heart, the spirit of a person must be taught contriteness and humility, just as God taught Moses and others this.  Then God doesn't have to smack them dowm to do it, or use something like Paul's miraculous event conversion, for few indeed have ever had that!  The tragedy is that we now have second generation believers that are raised this way, not knowing this spiritually, and it shows in the church: rebellion and all sorts of sin -- just read the bulletin or the news or listen to the grapevine of the church!  The proof is in the pudding.  And most don't like to look at all that is in the petri dish called the church.  That is why there are now studies that show that adults that have never been spanked are far more stubborn when adults, no matter how nice and descent/upright citizens they are, no matter their relitigious beliefs.

On this topic, like many others, it is seen by many that the ways of the world are mixed with Christianity and the bible, often to the point of taking presidence over the bible.  And when things go OK that way, it is used as proof that we don't need to/shouldn't do what the Bible might very clearly say is a good thing.  So no matter the topic, and this propensity of Christians is seen on many of these threads, it is sin, making God to be a liar, and man to be the perveyor of truth and wisdom.  It is rebellion.  It is witchcraft.  Hence, there are those who when they see these thiings on this forum, and elsewhere, say that the fear of God is not before most posters eyes, and they they draw near to God with their lips, but not with their heart, really.  Even though every poster will vehemently avow otherwise.

But then again, both the honest man and the thief will say that they are innocent, right?

And many kids are so totally different.  My 16 year old daughter hasn't had to be even rebuked since she was about 8, except once about a year ago, and that was about her attitude on something.  It shocked everyone.  Friends couldn't believe it when I said that she had to be rebuked.  She is the paragon of a "perfect" child: litterally never does anything wrong.  Period.  And her attitude is one of joy and happiness all the time.  All adults and kids alike who know her have never seen her do something wrong, or have an unpleasant attitude.  It blows the mind.  I would never have thought that possible, but we have seen it for years in her.  It's just amazing.  And it isn't a result of Dad and Mom, but of God.

My 18 year old son, when about 12, when we went to a certain church for the first time, upon walking through the doors, was told by one person there that as soon as they saw him, a verse came to mind: "in whom there is no guile".  We sat down, and the people in front of us said the same thing, that it just blew them away when they saw him, and they just had to tell us this.  Another person came up to us after the service, and told my wife and I the same thing.  Indeed, he is yet known as a guy in whom there is no guile: it just exudes from him.

it is not that my wife and I are great parents.  far from it.  I have blown it so many times, it's pathetic.  But we teach the heart.  Always.  And we use different things at different times, for the heart needs different things.  To spank when they've had a bad attitude and deliberately done something wrong is foolish, unless it is needed.  To not spank in that instance is foolihs, unless it is not needed.  What does their heart need at each instance?  Look to the heart only, and deal with the heart only, and that will be done the same way that you walk with God.  This is why a smile or the lack of a smile can guide your children.  That's no different than our reading the word and seeing if something makes God smile or not.  Or if it even is called that which He hates, or an abomination to Him.  We are to have the mind of Christ, having been blessed with all spiritual blessings in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, that we be complete and lacking nothing, doing the good works which He before ordained for us, that we should just walk in them.  So get the heart always.  If a parent or one in authority is dealing with the actions, they are missing the point, and will have problems in their flock.  Just look at the church.  Most pastors don't have a clue how to lead the flock, shown by the fruit.  Anyhow, I'm rambling on now.  Sorry.

son of god
believe me, my children have suffered, but not at my hands. You make it sound as if they are like horses that have to be broken. My children needed firm boundariies and guidance, and they got that, but not by being spanked/beaten. They have beautiful spirits and havent had to be 'broken' to have those. They are caring and thoughtful.
Just as God uses the 'rod' in the 23rd psalm that the shepherd used, not to beat the sheep, but to nudge them and guide them and make sure they didnt stray off the track. God disciplines us but even if he could he wouldnt beat or hit us, but he uses other forms of discipline to do that. He doesnt have to break us, but to draw us close to Him and show us the right way to go.He shows us by example, by allowing us to reap what we have sown, by teaching and correction, through other people, and the church.
I just think that if we can bring up good kids without hitting them,then why do we need to hit them?

: chosenone  Sat Oct 17, 2009 - 10:18:02
son of god
believe me, my children have suffered, but not at my hands. You make it sound as if they are like horses that have to be broken. My children needed firm boundariies and guidance, and they got that, but not by being spanked/beaten. They have beautiful spirits and havent had to be 'broken' to have those. They are caring and thoughtful.
Just as God uses the 'rod' in the 23rd psalm that the shepherd used, not to beat the sheep, but to nudge them and guide them and make sure they didnt stray off the track. God disciplines us but even if he could he wouldnt beat or hit us, but he uses other forms of discipline to do that. He doesnt have to break us, but to draw us close to Him and show us the right way to go.He shows us by example, by allowing us to reap what we have sown, by teaching and correction, through other people, and the church.
I just think that if we can bring up good kids without hitting them,then why do we need to hit them?

I have been waiting a long time for you to supply scriptural support for your position.  I believe your position is born out of the views of your culture and not scripture.  Please provide your scripture that invalidates scriptures about physical discipline.

 I think it depends on the child. My middle daughter is different, more submissive than , oldest and youngest. If your baby is going to touch a hot stove, you do hit their bottom, or hand. I think a child would much rather have a spanking than verbal abuse. My husband explains to the girls, before a rare spanking, and turns them over his knee, then talks to them about discipline after. He never spanks in out of control anger, but if he does it is controlled discipline. I was hit with the belt many times, it really just made me secretly hate, and be angry, because it was not done for discipline reasons, but out of anger.

I agree.  If a child is going to get hurt badly, you really don't let them experience it!  If they will get hurt just a little, and are at the point where that would be quite profitable, you let it occur, for it is minor and poses no threat to the wellbeing of the child.  The same is absolutely true regarding discipline, I think.

: son of God  Sat Oct 17, 2009 - 14:21:29
I agree.  If a child is going to get hurt badly, you really don't let them experience it!  If they will get hurt just a little, and are at the point where that would be quite profitable, you let it occur, for it is minor and poses no threat to the wellbeing of the child.  The same is absolutely true regarding discipline, I think.

Truth.

: Gary  Sat Oct 17, 2009 - 10:32:05

: chosenone  Sat Oct 17, 2009 - 10:18:02
son of god
believe me, my children have suffered, but not at my hands. You make it sound as if they are like horses that have to be broken. My children needed firm boundariies and guidance, and they got that, but not by being spanked/beaten. They have beautiful spirits and havent had to be 'broken' to have those. They are caring and thoughtful.
Just as God uses the 'rod' in the 23rd psalm that the shepherd used, not to beat the sheep, but to nudge them and guide them and make sure they didnt stray off the track. God disciplines us but even if he could he wouldnt beat or hit us, but he uses other forms of discipline to do that. He doesnt have to break us, but to draw us close to Him and show us the right way to go.He shows us by example, by allowing us to reap what we have sown, by teaching and correction, through other people, and the church.
I just think that if we can bring up good kids without hitting them,then why do we need to hit them?

I have been waiting a long time for you to supply scriptural support for your position.  I believe your position is born out of the views of your culture and not scripture.  Please provide your scripture that invalidates scriptures about physical discipline.

  They are not the views of my culture, they are the views that I have come to after bringing up my own three children, and by babysitting for  countless children over the last 12 years for about 20 different families.
I have mentioned the 'rod' used in the 23rd psalm. The same word that is used for disciplining the child. It doesnt mean a rod to beat the  sheep or the  child, but one used to nudge, steer and guide the sheep in the right path.
The children who I know that are the nicest, most well behaved and kindest are ones that arent smacked or beated or hit.

: chosenone  Mon Oct 19, 2009 - 17:31:50

: Gary  Sat Oct 17, 2009 - 10:32:05

: chosenone  Sat Oct 17, 2009 - 10:18:02
son of god
believe me, my children have suffered, but not at my hands. You make it sound as if they are like horses that have to be broken. My children needed firm boundariies and guidance, and they got that, but not by being spanked/beaten. They have beautiful spirits and havent had to be 'broken' to have those. They are caring and thoughtful.
Just as God uses the 'rod' in the 23rd psalm that the shepherd used, not to beat the sheep, but to nudge them and guide them and make sure they didnt stray off the track. God disciplines us but even if he could he wouldnt beat or hit us, but he uses other forms of discipline to do that. He doesnt have to break us, but to draw us close to Him and show us the right way to go.He shows us by example, by allowing us to reap what we have sown, by teaching and correction, through other people, and the church.
I just think that if we can bring up good kids without hitting them,then why do we need to hit them?

I have been waiting a long time for you to supply scriptural support for your position.  I believe your position is born out of the views of your culture and not scripture.  Please provide your scripture that invalidates scriptures about physical discipline.

  They are not the views of my culture, they are the views that I have come to after bringing up my own three children, and by babysitting for  countless children over the last 12 years for about 20 different families.
I have mentioned the 'rod' used in the 23rd psalm. The same word that is used for disciplining the child. It doesnt mean a rod to beat the  sheep or the  child, but one used to nudge, steer and guide the sheep in the right path.
The children who I know that are the nicest, most well behaved and kindest are ones that arent smacked or beated or hit.

Please give scriptural basis for your views.

: Gary  Mon Oct 19, 2009 - 17:35:56

: chosenone  Mon Oct 19, 2009 - 17:31:50

: Gary  Sat Oct 17, 2009 - 10:32:05

: chosenone  Sat Oct 17, 2009 - 10:18:02
son of god
believe me, my children have suffered, but not at my hands. You make it sound as if they are like horses that have to be broken. My children needed firm boundariies and guidance, and they got that, but not by being spanked/beaten. They have beautiful spirits and havent had to be 'broken' to have those. They are caring and thoughtful.
Just as God uses the 'rod' in the 23rd psalm that the shepherd used, not to beat the sheep, but to nudge them and guide them and make sure they didnt stray off the track. God disciplines us but even if he could he wouldnt beat or hit us, but he uses other forms of discipline to do that. He doesnt have to break us, but to draw us close to Him and show us the right way to go.He shows us by example, by allowing us to reap what we have sown, by teaching and correction, through other people, and the church.
I just think that if we can bring up good kids without hitting them,then why do we need to hit them?

I have been waiting a long time for you to supply scriptural support for your position.  I believe your position is born out of the views of your culture and not scripture.  Please provide your scripture that invalidates scriptures about physical discipline.

  They are not the views of my culture, they are the views that I have come to after bringing up my own three children, and by babysitting for  countless children over the last 12 years for about 20 different families.
I have mentioned the 'rod' used in the 23rd psalm. The same word that is used for disciplining the child. It doesnt mean a rod to beat the  sheep or the  child, but one used to nudge, steer and guide the sheep in the right path.
The children who I know that are the nicest, most well behaved and kindest are ones that arent smacked or beated or hit.

Please give scriptural basis for your views.

Isnt the 23rd psalm scripture? The same word is used in both verses about sheep and children. I hardly think that God wants us to beat children if he doesnt want us to beat sheep who go off the path..

: chosenone  Mon Oct 19, 2009 - 17:42:28

: Gary  Mon Oct 19, 2009 - 17:35:56

: chosenone  Mon Oct 19, 2009 - 17:31:50

: Gary  Sat Oct 17, 2009 - 10:32:05

: chosenone  Sat Oct 17, 2009 - 10:18:02
son of god
believe me, my children have suffered, but not at my hands. You make it sound as if they are like horses that have to be broken. My children needed firm boundariies and guidance, and they got that, but not by being spanked/beaten. They have beautiful spirits and havent had to be 'broken' to have those. They are caring and thoughtful.
Just as God uses the 'rod' in the 23rd psalm that the shepherd used, not to beat the sheep, but to nudge them and guide them and make sure they didnt stray off the track. God disciplines us but even if he could he wouldnt beat or hit us, but he uses other forms of discipline to do that. He doesnt have to break us, but to draw us close to Him and show us the right way to go.He shows us by example, by allowing us to reap what we have sown, by teaching and correction, through other people, and the church.
I just think that if we can bring up good kids without hitting them,then why do we need to hit them?

I have been waiting a long time for you to supply scriptural support for your position.  I believe your position is born out of the views of your culture and not scripture.  Please provide your scripture that invalidates scriptures about physical discipline.

  They are not the views of my culture, they are the views that I have come to after bringing up my own three children, and by babysitting for  countless children over the last 12 years for about 20 different families.
I have mentioned the 'rod' used in the 23rd psalm. The same word that is used for disciplining the child. It doesnt mean a rod to beat the  sheep or the  child, but one used to nudge, steer and guide the sheep in the right path.
The children who I know that are the nicest, most well behaved and kindest are ones that arent smacked or beated or hit.

Please give scriptural basis for your views.

Isnt the 23rd psalm scripture? The same word is used in both verses about sheep and children. I hardly think that God wants us to beat children if he doesnt want us to beat sheep who go off the path..

Without scripture that says corporal punishment is wrong, your argument is without merit, and is against scripture.

 HAVE YOU BEAT YOUR KID TODAY???? (LOL) almost.

My kids are too big/old for spankings now, but I made rules for myself re: discipline that worked well for me.

1) Never spank when angry.
Anger makes it about you, and not about their infraction. Wait out your anger in a locked bathroom.

2) Never more than 3 spanks.
The fewer the better.

3) Never on any place other than a covered bottom.
You only want their attention. 

4) Never with anything other than my bare hand.
You don't want to hurt them.

5) Always be sure to communicate clearly why the spanking, no matter the age.
If they don't understand, the spank is wasted and will have to be repeated often.

6) Always reassure them afterward that I love them with words and a real hug.
Love your kids unconditionally. This is how they learn about the love of God-from you.

7) Apologize when I fail to live up to these.
No one is a perfect parent.  Teach your children to apologize by example, not by force.



My husband and I married when my son was two.  He came home from work not long after we'd been married greeted by an ecstatic two year-old little boy.  It seemed to not set well with him, as he proceeded to lay him on the couch, lift a leg, and wail away at his lightly padded bottom and bare thigh.  There was no reason whatsoever for any part of that.  My reaction was immediate and strong.  It was the last time he spanked him.  His inexperience at parenting was glaringly and painfully obvious.  My first responsibility was to protect my son.  He's learned a lot about parenting over the years.  He turned out to be a top-notch dad.

I highly recommend Barbara Colorosso's parenting materials, esp. "Winning at Parenting... Without Beating Your Kids".

That toddler is now 21.  Not spanked since kindergarten when he wouldn't get dressed for school.  A fine young man.  Godly.  Intelligent.  Self-controlled.  We are so very proud of him.

Our daughter will be 18 this Sunday.  She was a different child.  Strong-willed.  DrJekyll/MrHyde kind of kid.  She was a challenge in the womb.  Made us work hard at parenting.  Colorosso saved her, I believe, because we followed her techniques.  She had a strong spirit, one that we wanted her to learn to channel and control, not break.  Took her to church twice in her jammies.  (Highly recommend this technique.  Wish we had known about it during the kindergarten episode with my son.)  Nothing is sadder than a child with a broken spirit.  At about the age of 10, she got her act together.  She is a fine young woman.  Godly.  Intelligent.  Self-controlled.  We are so very proud of her.

We are not to provoke our children to anger.  We are to teach and guide our children.  "Spare the rod" is a teaching and guiding tool, not a discipline tool for beating.  If we spend more time teaching and guiding, we will have to spend less time disciplining and punishing.

That's my sermon for today...  ::preachit::

Try reading this article
www.kidglue.com/2009/07/10/what-every-parent-should-know-about-spanking/

Or this article
Corporal punishment of children has unfortunately been a misguided form of disciplining children advocated by many Christians and many churches. However, the hitting of any child to resolve behavior difficulties has been proven ineffectual and harmful. Studies have shown that children who are hit in the name of discipline can suffer some of the following effects

1. increased agression
2. depression/anxiety
3. fear of parents
4. A distorted sexuality where the child's (and later adult's) sexual thoughts and feelings revolve around fantasies of being hit, spanked, and humiliated.
5. Lower IQ scores
6. Failure to internalize self-control
7. resentment

All these negitive effects run counter to what we know about Jesus Christ. Jesus would surely agree that children need to have discipline, but discipline is simply another term for teaching. Discipline involves teaching a child moral and approprite behaviors. This is accomplished when the parent models approprite behavior, provides repeated gentle instruction untill the child internalizes the correct response, offers plenty of unconditional love, and provides lots of Grace and forgiveness when mistakes and offences have been made. There is no place where hitting, spanking, and other forms of punishment that involve humiliation are approprite; especially if such treatment results in sexual problems, depression, and other such difficulties already mentioned. Such treatment may change outward behavior in the short term, but it does not lead to a change of heart, which is the purpose of a biblical view of discipline.

Jesus loved little children along with other vulnerable members of society and he would never advocate a form of supposed discipline that could harm physically and emotionally. Unfortunately few churches take a stand against this lie that has been passed down for generations. Only the United Methodist Church and some Catholic chruches have taken a unified stance against the corporal punishment of children. Our country has also failed to respond to the most vulnerable in our society. Corporal Punishment still remains legal in all homes, and in many midwest and southern schools (private and public).

: chosenone  Tue Oct 20, 2009 - 11:42:47
Or this article
Corporal punishment of children has unfortunately been a misguided form of disciplining children advocated by many Christians and many churches. However, the hitting of any child to resolve behavior difficulties has been proven ineffectual and harmful. Studies have shown that children who are hit in the name of discipline can suffer some of the following effects

1. increased agression
2. depression/anxiety
3. fear of parents
4. A distorted sexuality where the child's (and later adult's) sexual thoughts and feelings revolve around fantasies of being hit, spanked, and humiliated.
5. Lower IQ scores
6. Failure to internalize self-control
7. resentment

All these negitive effects run counter to what we know about Jesus Christ. Jesus would surely agree that children need to have discipline, but discipline is simply another term for teaching. Discipline involves teaching a child moral and approprite behaviors. This is accomplished when the parent models approprite behavior, provides repeated gentle instruction untill the child internalizes the correct response, offers plenty of unconditional love, and provides lots of Grace and forgiveness when mistakes and offences have been made. There is no place where hitting, spanking, and other forms of punishment that involve humiliation are approprite; especially if such treatment results in sexual problems, depression, and other such difficulties already mentioned. Such treatment may change outward behavior in the short term, but it does not lead to a change of heart, which is the purpose of a biblical view of discipline.

Jesus loved little children along with other vulnerable members of society and he would never advocate a form of supposed discipline that could harm physically and emotionally. Unfortunately few churches take a stand against this lie that has been passed down for generations. Only the United Methodist Church and some Catholic chruches have taken a unified stance against the corporal punishment of children. Our country has also failed to respond to the most vulnerable in our society. Corporal Punishment still remains legal in all homes, and in many midwest and southern schools (private and public).

Please back up your ideas with scripture.  You have said you would earlier in the thread, and so far I haven't seen it.  If you can't back up your ideas with scripture you need to get new ideas.  I don't care what studies you post or anything else.  Back it up with scripture.  This is a Christian forum, not a psychology forum.

For the record, I was disciplined with corporal punishment.  I have none of the negative effects.

Once again, back it up with scripture.   If you just have articles by man, and no words of God, and appears to contradict God's Word, your belief is contrary to God's Word.

: chosenone  Tue Oct 20, 2009 - 11:42:47
Or this article
Corporal punishment of children has unfortunately been a misguided form of disciplining children advocated by many Christians and many churches. However, the hitting of any child to resolve behavior difficulties has been proven ineffectual and harmful. Studies have shown that children who are hit in the name of discipline can suffer some of the following effects

1. increased agression
2. depression/anxiety
3. fear of parents
4. A distorted sexuality where the child's (and later adult's) sexual thoughts and feelings revolve around fantasies of being hit, spanked, and humiliated.
5. Lower IQ scores
6. Failure to internalize self-control
7. resentment

All these negitive effects run counter to what we know about Jesus Christ. Jesus would surely agree that children need to have discipline, but discipline is simply another term for teaching. Discipline involves teaching a child moral and approprite behaviors. This is accomplished when the parent models approprite behavior, provides repeated gentle instruction untill the child internalizes the correct response, offers plenty of unconditional love, and provides lots of Grace and forgiveness when mistakes and offences have been made. There is no place where hitting, spanking, and other forms of punishment that involve humiliation are approprite; especially if such treatment results in sexual problems, depression, and other such difficulties already mentioned. Such treatment may change outward behavior in the short term, but it does not lead to a change of heart, which is the purpose of a biblical view of discipline.

Jesus loved little children along with other vulnerable members of society and he would never advocate a form of supposed discipline that could harm physically and emotionally. Unfortunately few churches take a stand against this lie that has been passed down for generations. Only the United Methodist Church and some Catholic chruches have taken a unified stance against the corporal punishment of children. Our country has also failed to respond to the most vulnerable in our society. Corporal Punishment still remains legal in all homes, and in many midwest and southern schools (private and public).

That list is the typical kid raised in an ungodly way.  Just look at the stats, and the schools, and such.  The same kids that so many on this forum say need medications and professional counseling.  Interesting.  I fully back Gary: how is it that we are wiser than God in His
Word?  SHOW ME THE MONEY.

What is the Scriptural support FOR physical punishment of our children, please?

: phoebe  Wed Oct 21, 2009 - 00:38:01
What is the Scriptural support FOR physical punishment of our children, please?

Reply #10 is a good start.  I would prefer to call it discipline rather than punishment. 

: Gary  Wed Oct 21, 2009 - 00:52:26

: phoebe  Wed Oct 21, 2009 - 00:38:01
What is the Scriptural support FOR physical punishment of our children, please?

Reply #10 is a good start.  I would prefer to call it discipline rather than punishment. 

OK, so you are basing your parenting on Proverbs?  The book written by Solomon? "Wise" Solomon who had how many wives and how many concubines?  Have you actually read ALL of Proverbs, slowly, so as to absorb some of the things that are being said?  (Also notice that not all the Proverbs are words of Solomon.)  Proverbs is not the rule book that replaced the 10 commandments.

Re: Proverbs:

    1) proverbs are parabolic and figurative
    2) proverbs is practical, not theological
    3) proverbs are worded to be memorable, not precise
    4) proverbs are not guarantees from God

Use Proverbs very carefully, with much discretion.  One ex. is the "Proverbs 31 Woman".  That isn't written about one woman.  It's an ideal, the epitome of woman, written as an acrostic poem.  How about 31:8, just above the ideal woman - "Give liquor to a person who is dying and wine to one who feels resentful."   Do you do that?

What one might learn from these two verses from post #10 is that there may be times when a spanking is appropriate, but what one must learn is that the purpose of the "rod" being spoken of is that of guiding, instructing, teaching and learning.  The "rod" is a tool for hogs.  Beat them all day long and all they will do is squeal.  Beat them enough and they will turn on you and devour you.  Touch or tap them on the sides with the rod and they will go in the direction you want them to go.  That is the rod being spoken of.  If all one does is hit, slap, and beat a child, they will grow up without learning God's way - which is the purpose, to teach them GOD'S way - and simply grow up to be another who hits, slaps and beats.  Slapping, hitting and beating does not teach God's way.

Understand, there are times when a spanking is appropriate, but it should be the exception and not the norm.  One does not learn much from a spanking, except there will be pain inflicted by the ones who are supposed to love them the most.  Teaching is the priority.  That seems to be lost by parents who depend heavily on spanking.  The essence of the parenting proverbs are simply saying to teach your children, to raise them to be good, godly people, not to let them raise themselves and go wild.  It is disciplined vs. undisciplined.

Then, one must ask, 'What does Jesus say about children?'

Matthew 18:6-10  My paraphrase - Be very careful with My children.  If you do anything that causes them to lose faith in Me, there will be dire and eternal consequences.

And then Paul speaks to discipline in Eph. 6:4 - "Fathers, don't make your children bitter about life.  Instead, bring them up in Christian discipline and instruction." - GWT; or "Parents, do not exasperate your children but provide them with education and instruction about the Lord." - TSNT

The word is paidea, and mean teach, educate, instruct, rearing a child, but it does not mean "chasten" or "discipline".

Learn to spank appropriately.


Sorry I couldn't say it in 50 words or less.

: phoebe  Wed Oct 21, 2009 - 11:26:41

: Gary  Wed Oct 21, 2009 - 00:52:26

: phoebe  Wed Oct 21, 2009 - 00:38:01
What is the Scriptural support FOR physical punishment of our children, please?

Reply #10 is a good start.  I would prefer to call it discipline rather than punishment.  

OK, so you are basing your parenting on Proverbs?  The book written by Solomon? "Wise" Solomon who had how many wives and how many concubines?  Have you actually read ALL of Proverbs, slowly, so as to absorb some of the things that are being said?  (Also notice that not all the Proverbs are words of Solomon.)  Proverbs is not the rule book that replaced the 10 commandments.

Re: Proverbs:

   1) proverbs are parabolic and figurative
   2) proverbs is practical, not theological
   3) proverbs are worded to be memorable, not precise
   4) proverbs are not guarantees from God

Use Proverbs very carefully, with much discretion.  One ex. is the "Proverbs 31 Woman".  That isn't written about one woman.  It's an ideal, the epitome of woman, written as an acrostic poem.  How about 31:8, just above the ideal woman - "Give liquor to a person who is dying and wine to one who feels resentful."   Do you do that?

What one might learn from these two verses from post #10 is that there may be times when a spanking is appropriate, but what one must learn is that the purpose of the "rod" being spoken of is that of guiding, instructing, teaching and learning.  The "rod" is a tool for hogs.  Beat them all day long and all they will do is squeal.  Beat them enough and they will turn on you and devour you.  Touch or tap them on the sides with the rod and they will go in the direction you want them to go.  That is the rod being spoken of.  If all one does is hit, slap, and beat a child, they will grow up without learning God's way - which is the purpose, to teach them GOD'S way - and simply grow up to be another who hits, slaps and beats.  Slapping, hitting and beating does not teach God's way.

Understand, there are times when a spanking is appropriate, but it should be the exception and not the norm.  One does not learn much from a spanking, except there will be pain inflicted by the ones who are supposed to love them the most.  Teaching is the priority.  That seems to be lost by parents who depend heavily on spanking.  The essence of the parenting proverbs are simply saying to teach your children, to raise them to be good, godly people, not to let them raise themselves and go wild.  It is disciplined vs. undisciplined.

Then, one must ask, 'What does Jesus say about children?'

Matthew 18:6-10  My paraphrase - Be very careful with My children.  If you do anything that causes them to lose faith in Me, there will be dire and eternal consequences.

And then Paul speaks to discipline in Eph. 6:4 - "Fathers, don't make your children bitter about life.  Instead, bring them up in Christian discipline and instruction." - GWT; or "Parents, do not exasperate your children but provide them with education and instruction about the Lord." - TSNT

The word is paidea, and mean teach, educate, instruct, rearing a child, but it does not mean "chasten" or "discipline".

Learn to spank appropriately.


Sorry I couldn't say it in 50 words or less.

Now that you've got that all out, who said anything about proverbs replacing the ten commandments or any such thing?

Don't treat Proverbs like it is a book of rules, which it how it seems when it is used as Scriptural support for a way of living as Christ-followers.

: phoebe  Wed Oct 21, 2009 - 12:05:14
Don't treat Proverbs like it is a book of rules, which it how it seems when it is used as Scriptural support for a way of living as Christ-followers.

Seems is often in the eye of the beholder.  Scriptural support and rule keeping are not always the same thing.  My argument has been against those who say spanking is wrong entirely.

: Gary  Wed Oct 21, 2009 - 12:07:48

: phoebe  Wed Oct 21, 2009 - 12:05:14
Don't treat Proverbs like it is a book of rules, which it how it seems when it is used as Scriptural support for a way of living as Christ-followers.

Seems is often in the eye of the beholder.  Scriptural support and rule keeping are not always the same thing.  My argument has been against those who say spanking is wrong entirely.

That's obviously not me.  I can't fathom a child never needing something of a spat.  IMO and IME, they all turn a deaf ear to us from time to time, refusing any teachable moments, and boldly defy us.  I never spanked to hurt or because I was angry, but to get their attention and let them know I meant business.  I believe spanking is to be a last resort, and self-imposed guidelines keep it about the child and not the parent's anger.  I don't believe our role in parenting is to "break their spirit".  God gave them that spirit.  Our role is to teach them how to use  it.

: son of God  Tue Oct 20, 2009 - 21:45:46

: chosenone  Tue Oct 20, 2009 - 11:42:47
Or this article
Corporal punishment of children has unfortunately been a misguided form of disciplining children advocated by many Christians and many churches. However, the hitting of any child to resolve behavior difficulties has been proven ineffectual and harmful. Studies have shown that children who are hit in the name of discipline can suffer some of the following effects

1. increased agression
2. depression/anxiety
3. fear of parents
4. A distorted sexuality where the child's (and later adult's) sexual thoughts and feelings revolve around fantasies of being hit, spanked, and humiliated.
5. Lower IQ scores
6. Failure to internalize self-control
7. resentment

All these negitive effects run counter to what we know about Jesus Christ. Jesus would surely agree that children need to have discipline, but discipline is simply another term for teaching. Discipline involves teaching a child moral and approprite behaviors. This is accomplished when the parent models approprite behavior, provides repeated gentle instruction untill the child internalizes the correct response, offers plenty of unconditional love, and provides lots of Grace and forgiveness when mistakes and offences have been made. There is no place where hitting, spanking, and other forms of punishment that involve humiliation are approprite; especially if such treatment results in sexual problems, depression, and other such difficulties already mentioned. Such treatment may change outward behavior in the short term, but it does not lead to a change of heart, which is the purpose of a biblical view of discipline.

Jesus loved little children along with other vulnerable members of society and he would never advocate a form of supposed discipline that could harm physically and emotionally. Unfortunately few churches take a stand against this lie that has been passed down for generations. Only the United Methodist Church and some Catholic chruches have taken a unified stance against the corporal punishment of children. Our country has also failed to respond to the most vulnerable in our society. Corporal Punishment still remains legal in all homes, and in many midwest and southern schools (private and public).

That list is the typical kid raised in an ungodly way.  Just look at the stats, and the schools, and such.  The same kids that so many on this forum say need medications and professional counseling.  Interesting.  I fully back Gary: how is it that we are wiser than God in His
Word?  SHOW ME THE MONEY.

The most well behaved and good kids that I know are ones that dont get hit/spanked/beaten.

: Gary  Tue Oct 20, 2009 - 21:24:25

: chosenone  Tue Oct 20, 2009 - 11:42:47
Or this article
Corporal punishment of children has unfortunately been a misguided form of disciplining children advocated by many Christians and many churches. However, the hitting of any child to resolve behavior difficulties has been proven ineffectual and harmful. Studies have shown that children who are hit in the name of discipline can suffer some of the following effects

1. increased agression
2. depression/anxiety
3. fear of parents
4. A distorted sexuality where the child's (and later adult's) sexual thoughts and feelings revolve around fantasies of being hit, spanked, and humiliated.
5. Lower IQ scores
6. Failure to internalize self-control
7. resentment

All these negitive effects run counter to what we know about Jesus Christ. Jesus would surely agree that children need to have discipline, but discipline is simply another term for teaching. Discipline involves teaching a child moral and approprite behaviors. This is accomplished when the parent models approprite behavior, provides repeated gentle instruction untill the child internalizes the correct response, offers plenty of unconditional love, and provides lots of Grace and forgiveness when mistakes and offences have been made. There is no place where hitting, spanking, and other forms of punishment that involve humiliation are approprite; especially if such treatment results in sexual problems, depression, and other such difficulties already mentioned. Such treatment may change outward behavior in the short term, but it does not lead to a change of heart, which is the purpose of a biblical view of discipline.

Jesus loved little children along with other vulnerable members of society and he would never advocate a form of supposed discipline that could harm physically and emotionally. Unfortunately few churches take a stand against this lie that has been passed down for generations. Only the United Methodist Church and some Catholic chruches have taken a unified stance against the corporal punishment of children. Our country has also failed to respond to the most vulnerable in our society. Corporal Punishment still remains legal in all homes, and in many midwest and southern schools (private and public).

Please back up your ideas with scripture.  You have said you would earlier in the thread, and so far I haven't seen it.  If you can't back up your ideas with scripture you need to get new ideas.  I don't care what studies you post or anything else.  Back it up with scripture.  This is a Christian forum, not a psychology forum.

For the record, I was disciplined with corporal punishment.  I have none of the negative effects.

Once again, back it up with scripture.   If you just have articles by man, and no words of God, and appears to contradict God's Word, your belief is contrary to God's Word.

The article on the website that I posted on the last page speaks about the Biblical verses that are often misinterpreted by many Christians. It gives the meaing of the words etc.
Seems plain to me. Why hit kids if we dont need to?

: chosenone  Wed Oct 21, 2009 - 12:57:32

: Gary  Tue Oct 20, 2009 - 21:24:25

: chosenone  Tue Oct 20, 2009 - 11:42:47
Or this article
Corporal punishment of children has unfortunately been a misguided form of disciplining children advocated by many Christians and many churches. However, the hitting of any child to resolve behavior difficulties has been proven ineffectual and harmful. Studies have shown that children who are hit in the name of discipline can suffer some of the following effects

1. increased agression
2. depression/anxiety
3. fear of parents
4. A distorted sexuality where the child's (and later adult's) sexual thoughts and feelings revolve around fantasies of being hit, spanked, and humiliated.
5. Lower IQ scores
6. Failure to internalize self-control
7. resentment

All these negitive effects run counter to what we know about Jesus Christ. Jesus would surely agree that children need to have discipline, but discipline is simply another term for teaching. Discipline involves teaching a child moral and approprite behaviors. This is accomplished when the parent models approprite behavior, provides repeated gentle instruction untill the child internalizes the correct response, offers plenty of unconditional love, and provides lots of Grace and forgiveness when mistakes and offences have been made. There is no place where hitting, spanking, and other forms of punishment that involve humiliation are approprite; especially if such treatment results in sexual problems, depression, and other such difficulties already mentioned. Such treatment may change outward behavior in the short term, but it does not lead to a change of heart, which is the purpose of a biblical view of discipline.

Jesus loved little children along with other vulnerable members of society and he would never advocate a form of supposed discipline that could harm physically and emotionally. Unfortunately few churches take a stand against this lie that has been passed down for generations. Only the United Methodist Church and some Catholic chruches have taken a unified stance against the corporal punishment of children. Our country has also failed to respond to the most vulnerable in our society. Corporal Punishment still remains legal in all homes, and in many midwest and southern schools (private and public).

Please back up your ideas with scripture.  You have said you would earlier in the thread, and so far I haven't seen it.  If you can't back up your ideas with scripture you need to get new ideas.  I don't care what studies you post or anything else.  Back it up with scripture.  This is a Christian forum, not a psychology forum.

For the record, I was disciplined with corporal punishment.  I have none of the negative effects.

Once again, back it up with scripture.   If you just have articles by man, and no words of God, and appears to contradict God's Word, your belief is contrary to God's Word.

The article on the website that I posted on the last page speaks about the Biblical verses that are often misinterpreted by many Christians. It gives the meaing of the words etc.
Seems plain to me. Why hit kids if we dont need to?

A big goose-egg on the scriptural backup for your position again?  Prove that spanking is wrong from scripture.  If you can't your position is false.

: son of God  Tue Oct 20, 2009 - 21:45:46

: chosenone  Tue Oct 20, 2009 - 11:42:47
Or this article
Corporal punishment of children has unfortunately been a misguided form of disciplining children advocated by many Christians and many churches. However, the hitting of any child to resolve behavior difficulties has been proven ineffectual and harmful. Studies have shown that children who are hit in the name of discipline can suffer some of the following effects

1. increased agression
2. depression/anxiety
3. fear of parents
4. A distorted sexuality where the child's (and later adult's) sexual thoughts and feelings revolve around fantasies of being hit, spanked, and humiliated.
5. Lower IQ scores
6. Failure to internalize
7. resentment

All these negative effects run counter to what we know about Jesus Christ. Jesus would surely agree that children need to have discipline, but discipline is simply another term for teaching. Discipline involves teaching a child moral and appropriate behaviors. This is accomplished when the parent models appropriate behavior, provides repeated gentle instruction until the child internalizes the correct response, offers plenty of unconditional love, and provides lots of Grace and forgiveness when mistakes and offences have been made. There is no place where hitting, spanking, and other forms of punishment that involve humiliation are appropriate; especially if such treatment results in sexual problems, depression, and other such difficulties already mentioned. Such treatment may change outward behavior in the short term, but it does not lead to a change of heart, which is the purpose of a biblical view of discipline.

Jesus loved little children along with other vulnerable members of society and he would never advocate a form of supposed discipline that could harm physically and emotionally. Unfortunately few churches take a stand against this lie that has been passed down for generations. Only the United Methodist Church and some Catholic Churches have taken a unified stance against the corporal punishment of children. Our country has also failed to respond to the most vulnerable in our society. Corporal Punishment still remains legal in all homes, and in many midwest and southern schools (private and public).

That list is the typical kid raised in an ungodly way. Just look at the stats, and the schools, and such. The same kids that so many on this forum say need medications and professional counseling. Interesting.  I fully back Gary: how is it that we are wiser than God in His
Word?  SHOW ME THE MONEY.

Your opinion is that the list is for those who are raised in an ungodly way, seems that isn't true from the research. maybe read the first article on the website that I posted.
God never meant for children to have their spirits broken or to be beaten for every misdemeanour, as some are. The rod used in the psalm by the shepherd, was NEVER meant to beat the sheep, (nor our children). It is s rod of correction and guiding and leading and not a rod of pain.God guides leads and corrects us but NOT through inflicting physical beatings on us.

: chosenone  Wed Oct 21, 2009 - 13:03:59

: son of God  Tue Oct 20, 2009 - 21:45:46

: chosenone  Tue Oct 20, 2009 - 11:42:47
Or this article
Corporal punishment of children has unfortunately been a misguided form of disciplining children advocated by many Christians and many churches. However, the hitting of any child to resolve behavior difficulties has been proven ineffectual and harmful. Studies have shown that children who are hit in the name of discipline can suffer some of the following effects

1. increased agression
2. depression/anxiety
3. fear of parents
4. A distorted sexuality where the child's (and later adult's) sexual thoughts and feelings revolve around fantasies of being hit, spanked, and humiliated.
5. Lower IQ scores
6. Failure to internalize
7. resentment

All these negative effects run counter to what we know about Jesus Christ. Jesus would surely agree that children need to have discipline, but discipline is simply another term for teaching. Discipline involves teaching a child moral and appropriate behaviors. This is accomplished when the parent models appropriate behavior, provides repeated gentle instruction until the child internalizes the correct response, offers plenty of unconditional love, and provides lots of Grace and forgiveness when mistakes and offences have been made. There is no place where hitting, spanking, and other forms of punishment that involve humiliation are appropriate; especially if such treatment results in sexual problems, depression, and other such difficulties already mentioned. Such treatment may change outward behavior in the short term, but it does not lead to a change of heart, which is the purpose of a biblical view of discipline.

Jesus loved little children along with other vulnerable members of society and he would never advocate a form of supposed discipline that could harm physically and emotionally. Unfortunately few churches take a stand against this lie that has been passed down for generations. Only the United Methodist Church and some Catholic Churches have taken a unified stance against the corporal punishment of children. Our country has also failed to respond to the most vulnerable in our society. Corporal Punishment still remains legal in all homes, and in many midwest and southern schools (private and public).

That list is the typical kid raised in an ungodly way. Just look at the stats, and the schools, and such. The same kids that so many on this forum say need medications and professional counseling. Interesting.  I fully back Gary: how is it that we are wiser than God in His
Word?  SHOW ME THE MONEY.

Your opinion is that the list is for those who are raised in an ungodly way, seems that isn't true from the research. maybe read the first article on the website that I posted.
God never meant for children to have their spirits broken or to be beaten for every misdemeanour, as some are. The rod used in the psalm by the shepherd, was NEVER meant to beat the sheep, (nor our children). It is s rod of correction and guiding and leading and not a rod of pain.God guides leads and corrects us but NOT through inflicting physical beatings on us.

Lack of scripture and an assumption that spanking = physical beating will lead to unsound doctrine.

I'm 19, so probably a bit young to be posting on here, but in any case, my parents definitely spanked me. By most standards, I've turned out pretty well; I'm not promiscuous, I don't do drugs, I'm studying biology to go premed at an Ivy League school.
But I think the damage that spanking did to my relationship with my parents is impressive. My choice of school says enough: I refused to apply to any schools within 6 hours driving distance from my house. I'm currently 3,000 miles and 3 time zones away from home. I love my parents, but I don't miss them. I feel more at home walking into my dorm room than I ever did in my real house back home. To be honest, I'm afraid of them, and have been for as long as I can remember. I think it's easy to look back on childhood memories fondly and say it all worked out in the end, but for me it's recent enough that I can look back and remember times that I honestly thought my dad was going to literally kill me. I'm sure there are situations in which spanking works, but for my family, the spanking was escalated by the tempers of my parents to the point where I wasn't just getting hit with wooden spoons or whatever but instead with pairs of skis.
I wasn't abused- I usually had done something wrong, and they weren't taking out their own issues on me or anything. Being hit or pinched or swatted didn't happen that often, but when it did it usually made quite the impression.
So my main point here is just that while punishment is really important, I think spanking is wrong. I know plenty of wonderful people who have never been hit by their parents, and I think they're also closer; I don't believe the emotional damage is worth it.

: samurkai  Wed Oct 21, 2009 - 15:20:33
I'm 19, so probably a bit young to be posting on here, but in any case, my parents definitely spanked me. By most standards, I've turned out pretty well; I'm not promiscuous, I don't do drugs, I'm studying biology to go premed at an Ivy League school.
But I think the damage that spanking did to my relationship with my parents is impressive. My choice of school says enough: I refused to apply to any schools within 6 hours driving distance from my house. I'm currently 3,000 miles and 3 time zones away from home. I love my parents, but I don't miss them. I feel more at home walking into my dorm room than I ever did in my real house back home. To be honest, I'm afraid of them, and have been for as long as I can remember. I think it's easy to look back on childhood memories fondly and say it all worked out in the end, but for me it's recent enough that I can look back and remember times that I honestly thought my dad was going to literally kill me. I'm sure there are situations in which spanking works, but for my family, the spanking was escalated by the tempers of my parents to the point where I wasn't just getting hit with wooden spoons or whatever but instead with pairs of skis.
I wasn't abused- I usually had done something wrong, and they weren't taking out their own issues on me or anything. Being hit or pinched or swatted didn't happen that often, but when it did it usually made quite the impression.
So my main point here is just that while punishment is really important, I think spanking is wrong. I know plenty of wonderful people who have never been hit by their parents, and I think they're also closer; I don't believe the emotional damage is worth it.

Your situation was full of anger and abuse.  You are confusing abuse with proper spanking, much like Chosenone has done.

For the longest time it seemed (during the days I actually watched the news and what have you on television) the reporters doing any story on some kind of deranged maniac that attacked police with a meat fork or murdered a dozen people would always get the murderer's parents on camera with one general statement...they kinda seemed to pull it out of all of them...

"I don't understand how this coulda happened...He was always such a good boy..."

so there ya go...the guy who chopped up his neighbor into little bits and ate him barbequed every friday night for a special treat was a "good boy" according to his parents...

: chosenone  Mon Oct 19, 2009 - 17:31:50

: Gary  Sat Oct 17, 2009 - 10:32:05

: chosenone  Sat Oct 17, 2009 - 10:18:02
son of god
believe me, my children have suffered, but not at my hands. You make it sound as if they are like horses that have to be broken. My children needed firm boundariies and guidance, and they got that, but not by being spanked/beaten. They have beautiful spirits and havent had to be 'broken' to have those. They are caring and thoughtful.
Just as God uses the 'rod' in the 23rd psalm that the shepherd used, not to beat the sheep, but to nudge them and guide them and make sure they didnt stray off the track. God disciplines us but even if he could he wouldnt beat or hit us, but he uses other forms of discipline to do that. He doesnt have to break us, but to draw us close to Him and show us the right way to go.He shows us by example, by allowing us to reap what we have sown, by teaching and correction, through other people, and the church.
I just think that if we can bring up good kids without hitting them,then why do we need to hit them?

I have been waiting a long time for you to supply scriptural support for your position.  I believe your position is born out of the views of your culture and not scripture.  Please provide your scripture that invalidates scriptures about physical discipline.

  They are not the views of my culture, they are the views that I have come to after bringing up my own three children, and by babysitting for  countless children over the last 12 years for about 20 different families.
I have mentioned the 'rod' used in the 23rd psalm. The same word that is used for disciplining the child. It doesnt mean a rod to beat the  sheep or the  child, but one used to nudge, steer and guide the sheep in the right path.
The children who I know that are the nicest, most well behaved and kindest are ones that arent smacked or beated or hit.

No offense, but I will take what the Bible says over your personal experiences any day.

If you provide scripture to support your position, I may change my mind, but you never do.

In Christ,
KP

I agree with the 'smacked or beaten or hit',  but I think that there is appropriate spanking.

My daughter and I shared mother-daughter friends in TX where the mother would, not infrequently, slap her daughter hard across the face.  Inappropriate.  And I lost a lot of respect for my friend.

Small children are often smacked, slapped and hit so much that it has absolutely no affect on them.  Inappropriate.

Angry parents physically releasing their anger on the children.  Inappropriate.  It is not a release for a parent's anger.


Learn the how's and why's of appropriate spanking.


The "rod" of Scripture is a tool for guiding and teaching, not a weapon for discipline or punishment.  Best we stop trying to use Scripture inappropriately, as well. 

Nobody said you have to spank your child.
I don't care if you do or don't.  (That's generic "you", not just you, phoebe :) .)

What I care about is results.

I don't care if you take your barely-walking toddler gently by the hand and try to explain all sorts of logical reasons to him, why he should not run into the street or jab a fork into an electrical outlet.  Rather than swatting his well-padded, diapered butt, I mean.

I don't care, so long as it produces a toddler that will actually think twice before he pulls a trick like that again.  And, so doing, live.

I don't care if your discipline methods include no punishment at all, of any sort.  So long as you produce a well-rounded, confident, sociable, presentable child.

Unfortunately, going by what I've seen, neither the never-spank parents nor the always-whacking-away parents have much success.

But that's just what I've witnessed.

: janine  Tue Oct 27, 2009 - 21:43:02
Nobody said you have to spank your child.
I don't care if you do or don't.  (That's generic "you", not just you, phoebe :) .)

What I care about is results.

I don't care if you take your barely-walking toddler gently by the hand and try to explain all sorts of logical reasons to him, why he should not run into the street or jab a fork into an electrical outlet.  Rather than swatting his well-padded, diapered butt, I mean.

I don't care, so long as it produces a toddler that will actually think twice before he pulls a trick like that again.  And, so doing, live.

I don't care if your discipline methods include no punishment at all, of any sort.  So long as you produce a well-rounded, confident, sociable, presentable child.

Unfortunately, going by what I've seen, neither the never-spank parents nor the always-whacking-away parents have much success.

But that's just what I've witnessed.

spot on: teach the heart.

hit/spanked/beaten


Thats like saying the smartest kids are the ones who get good grades/eat well/sleep on their stomachs

These three shouldnt be together like that.

: janine  Tue Oct 27, 2009 - 21:43:02
Nobody said you have to spank your child.
I don't care if you do or don't.  (That's generic "you", not just you, phoebe :) .)

What I care about is results.

I don't care if you take your barely-walking toddler gently by the hand and try to explain all sorts of logical reasons to him, why he should not run into the street or jab a fork into an electrical outlet.  Rather than swatting his well-padded, diapered butt, I mean.

I don't care, so long as it produces a toddler that will actually think twice before he pulls a trick like that again.  And, so doing, live.

I don't care if your discipline methods include no punishment at all, of any sort.  So long as you produce a well-rounded, confident, sociable, presentable child.

Unfortunately, going by what I've seen, neither the never-spank parents nor the always-whacking-away parents have much success.

But that's just what I've witnessed.

I agree Janine, and I have actually seen some lovely kids who are rarely if ever hit or  spanked.I have babysat for about 20 different families in the last 15 years or so as well as bought up three of my own so have seen lots of different forms of discipline used and the results. Kids whose parents are consistant, loving, firm but not violent (ie dont hit their kids) have great and lovely kids generally. 

I have spanked all of my kids.  I have also yelled at them and put them in a corner.

I have received so many comments from people about how well behaved my kids are.

And guess what?  My kids still love me even though they were spanked.  When my plane landed at midnight, and left the terminal my two boys ran, yes ran up to me and nearly knocked me over with their hugs.

Frankly that's all I care about...my kids.  I will raise them as I see fit and hope they turn out well.  So far they are doing well.

In Christ,
KP

: k-pappy  Fri Oct 30, 2009 - 19:41:33
I have spanked all of my kids.  I have also yelled at them and put them in a corner.

I have received so many comments from people about how well behaved my kids are.

And guess what?  My kids still love me even though they were spanked.  When my plane landed at midnight, and left the terminal my two boys ran, yes ran up to me and nearly knocked me over with their hugs.

Frankly that's all I care about...my kids.  I will raise them as I see fit and hope they turn out well.  So far they are doing well.

Oh, I am sure they were so glad to see you, and that touched my heart.

In Christ,
KP

I have seen parents that are constantly spanking their children...and hollering at them to behave...and it doesn't seem to do any good...they are still rotten to the core.

Somewhere along the line the parent's or children just didn't connect....no clue as to why.

All I do know is about my son...rather too truthful at times (if such a thing can be said)
And usually well behaved and teachable.

(he has his moments like most children)

The only time corporal punishment was ever used was when he was willfully defiant. Other than that usually redirection or making him think/realize about the consequences of his actions was enough.

Does it say anywhere in the bible that you should spank your kids? I'm not arguing with anyone I'm just curious.

My mom, has its own way of disciplining us, she never spank her children. She would always say, that it would be better to talk to us, about the wrong things we've done.  She generously explains everything to help us understand that we should not be doing those things.

   Book of Proverbs mentions spanking I don't recalL the verse but its in there.
   STATED THUSLY: hE THAT SPARETH THE ROD,SPOILETH THE CHILD.    ::smile::

: mandalee65  Wed Oct 18, 2006 - 11:15:07
I hate that I can't spank my child when I need to (i.e., in public). He's only 3, and a delayed spanking at this age is simply not effective. It doesn't take much, either - one light swat and his heart is absolutely broken. I just don't dare do it in public, except at church.

IF you spank a child in public some do gooder will callthe police and report you for "Child abuse" which  I think is just wrong.
Faithlady

: walker starr  Wed Nov 25, 2009 - 09:41:11



   Book of Proverbs mentions spanking I don't recalL the verse but its in there.
   STATED THUSLY: hE THAT SPARETH THE ROD,SPOILETH THE CHILD.    ::smile::

Only rods are authorized.   Or     

That is Old Testament - God has become a christian now (I do wonder how non OTers can justify using this verse as if it were still relevant today but can't see the value in IM verses.....)   

From the bible version that I'm reading, it mentions the 'rod'. Proverbs 29:15 - A rod and a reprimand impart wisdom, but children left to themselves disgrace their mother.
Proverbs 29:17 - Discipline your children, and they will give you peace: they will bring you the delights you desire.
Proverbs 23:13-14 Do not withhold discipline from your children; if you punish them with the rod, they will not die. Punish them with the rod and save them from death.

This is why reading the entire word of God is so important. I have not read the entire bible from Genesis to Revelations, but I have read a good bit of it and while I believe (from what I have read and studied) physically disciplining your child is ok, there is also self-control and love, which has to be included in all forms of discipline. We should not spank our children out of anger, but out of love, because we want them to be better people. I remember, thinking 'now how can I physically discipline my son' if I'm not angry. Because usually, by the time I've calmed down, I don't want to spank. But I've also realized that a spanking (or as well call it around here, 'whoopin', LOL) is good for him. I don't believe in embarrassment or abuse, but I do know that all children born into sin and we as parents must show them the way to go. And when I child knows better, they should do better. Plain and simple. And if they continue to act out, a whoopin wont hurt them. When I child sees that he or she can get away with whatever they want, they just may continue to do it (shoot, we as adults are like that too with our Father (in Heaven) - but praise God He is a lot more patient with us)).

Now on the other hand, every parent has their own strategy. Some choose to spank, some dont. But discipline IS needed. Respect is required. If we let our children do whatever we want to do just to spare their feelings, then what kind of people will they be when they have to face this world without the assistance of mom and dad?? If a child uses bad language, don't laugh, do something about it. If a child goes around hitting on others 'just because' nip it in the bud. God has made us parents for a reason, and if we don't know what to do, he is there every step of the way to help us and guide us through. Praise God!!!

I do spank, and I believe it's biblical if done in the spirit of loving correction, not angry retribution for your ego having been insulted.

There are six kids in my house, and all of them are different in their temperament and response to correction.Spanking is necessary sometimes for a couple of them, and more often for two in particular.

I can definatley say I wouldn't be in the spot I am if my parents hadn't spanked me a bit...... It is a good thing... nothing comes from no punishment!
hahaha that sounds morbid
::crackup::

: Bocephus  Thu Oct 26, 2006 - 16:54:30

: confused and lost  Thu Oct 26, 2006 - 10:12:09
HOW DARE YOU, i have only just joined this forum and untill now i have agreed with everything you have said untill now. Spanking your child is wrong i teaches them nothing except fear for their perants for the people that are supposed to love and protect them, Put yourself in a childs shoes im 6"3 and wiegh about 196 im sure you are all about my size or smaller or bigger but if i imagine a 12"3 guy who wieghs 400 pounds hitting me well im going to be scared. We can not allow people to hit their children it is unbelievable wrong would it be alright for a man to hit his wife would that teach her something if i kicked my dog would that fair would that show that i cared for it spanking breeds fear spanking builds resentment spanking builds hatred, as i have mentioned two of my friends have tried to commit suicide and i can put my hand on my heart and say that these two were the only that had perants that hit them wait thats a lie, anouther of my friends is beatern by his perants it started with a light smack and now he spends about 7 months of year in hospital but the police wont do a thing do you not understand what giving people that little amount of power does it makes them need more it makes them abuse it...

Spanking is not beating a kid up.  Spanking is not wrong.  When done right, it is the best deterrent to violence and it instills respect for authority.  We are living in a world devoid of discipline and a lack of respect for authority.

No spanking is not wrong.  kids need to be spanked in order to help them learn not to behave a certain way
Faithlady

I have not read all the responses as the thread is long.

I would like to share my personal experience.  I am middle aged now. I grew up in a home where my parents didn't care what we kids did. We came and went as we pleased, did what we wanted, had no love, no boundries, and raised ourselves.

As a child, I wanted my parents to love me, set boundaries, and set consequences for misbehavior.

I wish my parents had set limits and given me a spanking when I needed it. I grew up feeling (to this day) that nobody card about me . I  tried to get into trouble, at home, school, testing to see if even one adult would take me aside, explain why I needed punishment, and followed through with my needed discipline. Not one ever did.

I saw other children with loving parents who set limits and enforced them. I wanted that.

Now, as an old person, never having been loved and cared enough to discipline me, I feel worthless.

As a child, I knew I needed a spanking. I secretly wanted someone, anyone, to take me into their love and teach me, love me, and spank me when i so often needed it.

I tell this now to you young parents because kids need boundaries and loving discipline. They want it. A spanking for misbehavior also clears their conscious.

Love your kids, spank them in love, and they will grow up knowing they were loved and safe.

What do you do if you have a child with no issues, no behavioral or discipline problems?  Just a good, kind, loving kid.  Do you have to spank them so they will know they are loved, safe, well-behaved (even though they already are), so they will learn (what they seem to already know)?  Is he now spoiled because I didn't use a rod on him w/o cause?

You go by results.  You got good fruit?  Then, your way was perfect for your kid.  Unless he grew up well in spite of your way.  I figure those who turn out well sometimes do it in spite of the imperfections of their parents.

: phoebe  Thu Mar 04, 2010 - 11:45:12
What do you do if you have a child with no issues, no behavioral or discipline problems?  Just a good, kind, loving kid.  Do you have to spank them so they will know they are loved, safe, well-behaved (even though they already are), so they will learn (what they seem to already know)?  Is he now spoiled because I didn't use a rod on him w/o cause?

Do they make kids like that?  I know I don't have any.

: Bocephus  Thu Mar 04, 2010 - 22:09:51
Do they make kids like that?  I know I don't have any.

I have one.  Melissa.  16 years old.  Spanked once as a toddler.  Only once.  A word to her is very sufficient.  I could count on one hand the times that she hasn't had alacrity.  It's just crazy.  But really, really nice.

Rachel, 14, has been spanked about 4 or 5 times max.  No bad attitudes there, either.  Just today I had to tell her twice to do something, as she had forgotten to do it the first time, and I was shocked.  My wife looked at me, and was equally surprised.  Haven't seen her pout since she was about 4 or 5.

Stephen, 11, is very much just like Rachel.  

Funny thing is, Donald, 18, is the one that needs to be told a number of times about almost everything.  They are far from perfect.  We are constantly training and teaching and correcting little things here and there.

Bad attitudes do not exist except in our youngest, Nathan, who is 2.5 years old.  Just the other day I had the talk with my wife about her not disciplining him as she should, and he was a brat, throwing fits, and finally she responded in sincerity and purity, and changed.  The next day, she was a different woman, like she had been with the first 4 kids.  In the three days since that talk, everyone has seen the difference in Nathan.  He hasn't thrown a fit at all today.  And has been happy almost the whole time.

Joseph, our Downs, 9, is totally different.  He hasn't been obeying well, either, but not throwing fits like Nathan was.  My wife changed, and Joseph has been very prompt and happy in obeying for two days now -- it only took him one day to change, and completely so.  It's just amazing.

I can say before God, that I've only once seen a child of mine be angry.  One child.  One time.

Maybe God has gifted me for raising kids.  My wife says so, but I don't see it.  I see it as God doing all of it.  I am nothing: if gifted in it, then that gift is from God.  Totally.  So no matter how you cut it, I'm nothing.

They never fight.  Arguments?  You'll look a long, long time to see even a mild one.

People constantly state how incredible our kids are.  God has done it.  He had to, for my wife and I had much, much strife in our marriage for many years.  God did it all in our kids.  Fortunately!  He did it despite us.

God has blessed us with incredible children.  It's almost too good to be true.

I'm glad that we labor over little things.  Very glad.

But we sure are happy that they're ours!

We were up until after 10 tonight, playing fast UNO, and laughing so hard it hurt.  We have lots of fun together.  Our weekends are basically playing games and having lots of fun together.  The game really doesn't matter: we have a ton of fun that really has nothing to do with the game that we're playing -- we are having fun together, because of who are are with each other.  We're just basically looking for any excuse to have more fun together.  I'm so blessed, it's most amazing.

Just this afternoon we had a mom come and ask us how to discipline children to have them so "perfect".  Our response?  Instant discipline, steady and constant, given with instruction as to the heart and attitudes, and why it was given, and what it is to facilitate in them.  And our discipline is always temporary, no matter the form, for when the child shows acceptable progress, the discipline is immediately removed.  We never punish, but always discipline.  They don't have to exhibit total victory -- just heart change and progress, and it is immediately lifted.  If it isn't lifted immediately, then it has just become thoroughly counterproductive in them, and it will be strained against.  And because we are the ones that initiated it, they will then strain against us.  We are to guide the heart and mind: we cannot change it or manipulate it or break it without destroying it.  God is to break the spirit, and He will build it completely new in Him.  We just faciliitate their openness to that from Him.

They see their Dad's heart break as he reads God's word and the tears roll down his cheeks.  They see Dad's eyes light up when he speaks of sharing Christ with the lost: his excitement is contagious.  They see Dad's anger against sin, and they have a holy fear of God and want no part of sinning.  They see God speak and work through their Dad all the time, and they long to have the same thing themselves with God.  And God is starting to do it in the oldest.  It just blows me away to see him witnessing on the internet as he plays games.  Just incredible.  They receive constant tenderness, coupled with unwavering firmness against sin.  And they love it all.  They hear their Dad's disgust with those who profess, but live in sin and insist on negating the word of God.  They see their Dad's endless gentleness with the new and young in Christ, and total lack of patience with those who ought to be mature in Him.

They see their Mom love their Dad, and support him and serve him.  They see the love and tenderness that Dad constantly showers on their Mom.  They see the joy of their Mom as she walks in inner beauty that the women of old had, calling their husband "Lord".  They see Mom light up when Dad gets home, and it's contagious: the kids rush out the door to greet their Dad.  My 18 year old son still calls me daddy -- in front of everyone, even at the college.  I guess that there's no stiffling love and contentment and joy, is there?

They see day spend up to 8 hours a day in the Word, simply because of love for God and His word: he hungers and thirst for it, like the Psalmist wrote.  So they each have an Ipod, and they listen to the Word while they do chores or their evening janitorial contract.  And they listen to it during quiet time.  And they will get up and read the word in the morning at 6, even if Dad and Momd sleep in, and then they'll speak of what they read and how it was cool.

They complain when we quite reading after a few chapters in Leviticus, because it just so exciting to them.  It was a serious bore and very unpleasant to me when I was growing up.  What a difference the heart of the parents makes!  The kids catch what the parents have, it seems.  Or as the adage goes, "the fruit falls close to the tree".

How will they turn out in adulthood?  God only knows.  But they are His, not mine.  I'm just the tutor until they walk fully with the Teacher Himself, showing that they need Him completely.  What they will each do with that, I don't know.  It will break my heart if they don't walk with God, but I'm not naive enough to assume that any of them will.  As God said in Isaiah about the children of Israel, that He'd been the perfect father, and that He had done all that was possible to do, and yet they still rebelled against Him.  And I've made lost of mistakes with them, and given numerous apologies to them.  Why God has done such a wonderful thing in my children, I probably will never know.  

But my wife and I are very, very thankful for what He has done.  It's amazing to see.  To God alone be the glory!

Joseph, the Down's, I'm sure has been given just so that we wouldn't think that parenting is a breeze.  My wife and I actually believe this.  And yes, now you all know beyond a doubt that I'm a wacko and ungodly.  I'm sure that some don't believe what I'm posting here.  O well.

A few years ago I did a CD audio set on parenting, but I no longer give it out.  Why?  Parenting is based solely upon the heart/soul state of the parent and that is conveyed to the child.  It is an unpleasant message that few want to hear.  So it collects dust.  It's much more palatable to accept 5 steps or 7 principles or whatever, for having "good" kids.  Or as Bill Gothard states, we must do 27 things for them to turn out godly.  Sorry, suckers, if you mess up on one of them: there's no guarantee then.  What rubbish!  Kind of funny how no one has been able to keep even ten commandments without their soul first being born of God, but we can believe that we need to do 27 things, count that, 27 of them for our kids to turn out for God.  All 27 of them.  It's just amazing the rubbish that people will believe.

Funny thing is, the fat lady that stayed with us had her baby two weeks ago, and I had sat down with her a month ago and told her that she was fat, lazy, a slob, and so selfish and arrogant and wicked.  That she needed to repent.  And I told her this for half an hour.

She was raised in a "Christian" family.  Her dad is still a pastor.  She's 30.  Ya know what?  A few days after that, she started getting up and having breakfast with us at 6 AM, and participating in the bible reading.  She started asking questions like, "How do I repent?  I've tried, and nothing seems to work?"  The state shipped her back to Oregon.  Her parole officer will not let her leave the state -- and only if she comes to live with us again.  They're working on the paper work.  She doesn't want to live anywhere but with us.  She is working on getting the state to grant us a form of guardianship over her (she's a mental patient), so that she can live with us and learn more about God.  Cool.

She has stated that we are the only people that have ever shown true love for her.

She also stated that she is not willing to let her baby be adopted by anyone but us.  And if we did that, she'd be willing to live somewhere else, but could we teach her about God?  She was also demon possessed when she came here.  This stuff is "chump change" for God -- it's a piece of cake!  We are just used by Him to prompt a little bit of it in others.  What a privilege!

God does the work.  He's been working since the very beginning, just as Christ stated.  It's amazing to see.  God alone is worthy of glory and honor and praise, for it is all of Him.

Some mock us for these things, and say that we are ungodly, or that we are off the deep end.  Or that I'm out of touch and on a rampage.  We've heard it all before I ever got on this forum.  Nothing new here.

I will receive correction from others.  I've needed it.  I'm still growing in Christ Jesus my Lord and Savior, learning more and more how to more properly wield this incredible, uncontainable Spirit that I've recieved without measure -- for the glory of God amongst a wicked and perverse generation in the church.  Like everything else, one needs to grow into maturity in this, too.  

"By their fruits you shall know them."

The fruits condemn many.  If I were to state as Paul did, "follow my example in these things", I'd be written off completely, if I haven't been already by most here.  I don't have an "apostle's badge".  Whatever that is.  I'm "not inspired".  I hate sin and get angry over it and confront people over it.  I mock them.  I chide them.  I encourage some.  I thank some.  I rebuke some.  I exhort some.  I spur others.  I sharply rebuke others.  Even by name.  And I use scriture, too.

I am taught by others.  Some threads I really enjoy reading and not posting at all, but learning from others.  When learning, keep the mouth shut so that the eyes and ears and mind will be open, was what I was taught as a kid.

"By their fruits you shall know them."  As Paul stated, I'm not boasting, but I'm forced to present some of the things in my life for others to see that God does lead me, and use me, for many in life to see.  And just like for Paul, why must this be done?  I'm discredited by what I write against sin and the sinners who commit the sin.  My wrtings are harsh they say.  Yes, they are.  But in person I come accross as weak, they say.  Some have even stated this to my face.  Kind of funny, but that was said about someone else.  A guy in the NT.  And like him, in my defense, I've been forced into exhibiting cleary the things in my life as vindication.

But now I've been preaching and "railing" yet again.  Sorry.  I can't help it, I guess.

And Phoebe, if you thought that your post would create "problems" or show a problem with the main of the threads which speak of spanking and corporeal discipline, or give grounds for reconsidering or accepting your position, you were very mistaken.  It must be scripturally based.  It wasn't.  Hypothetical stuff is for the birds.  How many angels can dance on the head of a pin is entirely useless.   Your "question" was of the same caliber.  Or arguing for the sake of arguing is of no benefit to anyone, either.

For one who is so adamant in their beliefs, I would expect a little more substance.  Scritpure would suffice.

No doubt you apply many wonderful Bible-based principles in raising your kids, s.o.G, but I also figure God doesn't challenge just anybody with the toughest brood.

Who sits you down and tells you when you're backsliding in parental discipline, or getting lazy and self-centered?  Is there anyone?  Or do you simply never sin in these ways?

: janine  Sat Mar 06, 2010 - 08:05:52
No doubt you apply many wonderful Bible-based principles in raising your kids, s.o.G, but I also figure God doesn't challenge just anybody with the toughest brood.

Who sits you down and tells you when you're backsliding in parental discipline, or getting lazy and self-centered?  Is there anyone?  Or do you simply never sin in these ways?

Nobody.  Except the Spirit.

And we see so many others, and are cognizant of these things that they are going through and learn and apply BEFORE we get to the same state they do.  This is why the scriptures state to look to those who have it together as an example, and why it states that those who sin and err are to be rebuked openly before all that the rest might fear and learn.  In so many ways it seems that we have been taught to not do these very things.  And it shows.  Just look at children behaviors!  And the parents, too.

I can understand when a person with lying talks with another person who has a problem with lying, and they try to help each other in it.  But not all are liars, right?  Likewise, not all parents get lazy and self-centered.  And yes, the two liars can talk and try to help each other, but really, who would be most profitable for a liar to spend time with for insight or fellowship -- another struggling liar or someone who has no problems with lying?

I'm concerned that we are conditioned to believe that there is virtually no one who basically has their life together as a whole.  It's sad.

And no, he doesn't challenge just anybody with the toughest brood.  That's why when I worked with adult Downs years ago, and with problem children, I was always given the worst: I was the only one that could handle them.  I don't know why.  They just smartened up around me.  When I worked in the oilfield, the tough guys would come right out and state that they were going to make me sin.  That they would beat the stuffins out of me.  But every time, they were powerless and feared me.  When I lived where drunks were, I was the one asked to deal with them.  Even when they would try to run people over in their cars.  For some reason, they would always come around to my take on things and go away.

The same is true with nature.  I go to a hive of bees, open it up, and grab a handful of bees.  Without getting stung.  And with bears.  I've tried many times to swat them, but they always run away when I'm about 5 feet away and swing forward to hit them.  I used to chase them out of the blueberry patch -- I wanted the blueberries more than they did.  I've chased two skunks at a time down the road.   They don't take time to spray, but run for their lives as I chase them with a pitchfork or whatever implement is ready at hand.  They fear me.  In Christ we are at the very top of the ladder.  Do we not know that we will judge angels?  Even angels are at our beck and call.  The centurion understood this.  Why don't we?  He had godly faith.  I'm concerned about ours.

God created man at the top of the ladder.  And those who are born of God, have dominion over all things.  Nature fears and respects them.  This is natural.  I consider it normal.  Nobody else does.  Why not?

I consider kids that are angry to be abnormal.  Kids that hate their parents is terribly abnormal.  There's just so much that we consider normal, which is very, very backwards.    It's like an ad that I saw the other day about parenting.  It went something like this: "Hearing the words 'I hate you' and knowing that you're doing something right".  That is sheer stupidity.  When your kid is telling you that they hate you, you are NOT doing something right!  So, if they say that they love you, you're doing something WRONG?  As the scriptures state, the wicked call good evil, and evil good.

Are you upset with me over this?

Is it too good to be true?

Or can anyone be this way with their kids?

btw, we just got in from a few hour walk in the woods with the kids.  Lot's of fun.  They have our heart.  We have theirs.  That's what it's all about.  If you don't have theirs, it's your fault.  You they don't have yours, it's your fault.  

Too many people give their opinion on the latest thing that Warren Buffet might be doing, yet they are paupers compared to him.  Funny, how they seem to know so much about whether he is making the best choices or not, or how they know and can agree that he is, as if they have knowlege about any of it and the whys of it all.  

The same things happens with parenting.  Or walking in spiritual vicotry.  Or having the power of God doing many miracles and wonders through a person.  Almost nobody in the church has these things.  And yet they besmirch me for having it.  

It shows the heart and why they have the fruit that they do, right?

Did you not see in my previous post that we've had issues to deal with in two of our kids, because we'd bombed it?

: Bocephus  Thu Mar 04, 2010 - 22:09:51

: phoebe  Thu Mar 04, 2010 - 11:45:12
What do you do if you have a child with no issues, no behavioral or discipline problems?  Just a good, kind, loving kid.  Do you have to spank them so they will know they are loved, safe, well-behaved (even though they already are), so they will learn (what they seem to already know)?  Is he now spoiled because I didn't use a rod on him w/o cause?

Do they make kids like that?  I know I don't have any.

Yes, there are some.

I also have one that called for spankings nearly every Sunday.  I believe Satan uses our children to create chaos on Sundays.  My daughter is the reason I came up with rules-to-spank-by for myself.

Both of them have grown into fine young adults.

People used to think it was necessary to "spank" adult members of the community, military trainees, and prisoners. In some countries they still do. In our country, it is considered sexual battery if a person over the age of 18 is "spanked", but only if over the age of 18.

For one thing, because the buttocks are so close to the genitals and so multiply linked to sexual nerve centers, striking them can trigger powerful and involuntary sexual stimulus in some people. There are numerous physiological ways in which it can be sexually abusive, but I won't list them all here. One can use the resources I've posted if they want to learn more.

Child buttock-battering vs. DISCIPLINE:

Child buttock-battering (euphemistically labeled "spanking","swatting","switching","smacking", "paddling",or other cute-sounding names) for the purpose of gaining compliance is nothing more than an inherited bad habit.

Its a good idea for people to take a look at what they are doing, and learn how to DISCIPLINE instead of hit.

I think the reason why television shows like "Supernanny" and "Dr. Phil" are so popular is because that is precisely what many (not all) people are trying to do.

There are several reasons why child bottom-slapping isn't a good idea. Here are some good, quick reads recommended by professionals:

Plain Talk About Spanking
by Jordan Riak,

The Sexual Dangers of Spanking Children
by Tom Johnson,

NO VITAL ORGANS THERE, So They Say
by Lesli Taylor M.D. and Adah Maurer Ph.D.

Most compelling of all reasons to abandon this worst of all bad habits is the fact that buttock-battering can be unintentional sexual abuse for some children. There is an abundance of educational resources, testimony, documentation, etc available on the subject that can easily be found by doing a little research with the recommended reads-visit the website of Parents and Teachers Against Violence In Education at www.nospank.net.

Just a handful of those helping to raise awareness of why child bottom-slapping isn't a good idea:

American Academy of Pediatrics,
American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry,
American Psychological Association,
Center For Effective Discipline,
Churches' Network For Non-Violence,
Nobel Peace Prize recipient Archbishop Desmond Tutu,
Parenting In Jesus' Footsteps,
Global Initiative To End All Corporal Punishment of Children,
United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child.

In 26 countries, child corporal punishment is prohibited by law (with more in process). In fact, the US was the only UN member that did not ratify the Convention on the Rights of the Child.

: PDeverit  Wed Mar 10, 2010 - 19:50:36
...
In 26 countries, child corporal punishment is prohibited by law (with more in process). In fact, the US was the only UN member that did not ratify the Convention on the Rights of the Child.

Nor should they.  Ever.   

: phoebe  Wed Mar 10, 2010 - 20:45:43

: PDeverit  Wed Mar 10, 2010 - 19:50:36
...
In 26 countries, child corporal punishment is prohibited by law (with more in process). In fact, the US was the only UN member that did not ratify the Convention on the Rights of the Child.

Nor should they.  Ever.   

I agree completely.  If it is ratified, it supercedes US law.  The only law that it wouldn't supercede is the constitution.

And it takes the right of parenting, even for choosing to raise a child in your own beliefs, away from the parent, making it illegal.  If completely and legally makes children the responsibility of the state, and gives the state the rights to raise the child as it sees fit.  The parents merely feed and clothe and house the child for the state. 

Fairly nasty document that the US refused to sign. 

As well as having been a mom, I have also worked with children as a preschool teacher, nanny and in various other capacities for over 30 yrs. I have found that the answer is not with the techniques I use ~ spankings, timeouts, sterner voice, or etc. These may curb behaviors...out of not wanting to feel the pain or discomfort again...but they rarely go any farther then that.

Discipline is more, much more then getting a kid to stop behaviors.
It should be about --

*An ongoing process of drawing child and caregiver closer together, because the child experiences the caregivers personal consistent integrity, instead of inanimate techniques that have no integrity or love in themselves at all...... ----><((meaning; caregiver backs up their words everytime, which gives the child a real reason to begin trusting the caregiver and therefore minding him/her much more naturally. Again, the child starts minding better because of the caregivers consistant integrity and NOT because of harsher or better techniques. In fact I have seen kids begin minding very quickly after realizing "I meant my words" even tho the penalty was usually not terribly  uncomfortable. Children respond well to someone who shows consistant-confident strength, as they know instinctively that they need to be taken care of by someone stronger then they are so they have security and their needs met....in fact many kids will act out just to see what you, their caregiver, is made of. In fact, I have seen kids who did not feel as though they had a strong caregiver "take over" essentially (bossy, bullying, acting out, over-responsible and etc...), as they instinctively know that someone has to be in charge!!!!))>.

* Another reason for the caregiver to depend on themselves (their integrity) instead of inanimate techniques is because their consistent integrity does not only help children mind....but the trust that they begin giving you is far reaching....as they will more likely come to you later in life as they know you are a person they can connect to no matter what and that you ARE one to be trusted. ALSO, which is just as important,  because you have always meant your words - they will truly believe you when ever you tell them you love them...and this love will be there with them even when you are not. It is a love with staying power...it is a God-kind of love!

*Helping children see that their behaviors affect others, and that the situation is sad not just because they got caught. (Conscience development)  

>>>>>>>>>>>>> There was a study done a few yrs ago in a couple of prisons to find out IF childhood abuse was the main reason for most incarcerations. What they found however, was that abuse was not typical at all among the prisons populations. What they found was that they lacked two things...conscience development and parental concern/involvement=connection. They found that when these "kids" got in trouble that the parents would spank them or yell, or restrict or take things away....but then it would stop there. The parent stayed disconnected from the situation and relied on the form of discipline to do the work of correction...as though the parenting was given over to something outside of themselves--something inanimate..................

                                          (((((This is why the bible says that when WE [The caregiver/parent] do not discipline our children then we are showing them that we hate them. BTW, the rod was something different -- as a Shepherd used their rods, which was to pull the lamb closer...not to beat them...altho they would break a lambs leg if the lamb was one that would consistently run away. Then he would put the lamb around his shoulders when they would have to leave the pasture. The Shepard was very involved in the management of the sheep. He did not relegate this responsibility to something outside of himself...in fact the rod or staff was used as an extension of his arm...so that he could reach to pull a sheep in when they were too far away. In this way the sheep would learn to trust the Shepard to such a degree, that they would never rely on or listen to anyone else but the Shepard!)))))

.......................therefore, instead of getting the idea that the parent loved them and was committed to them and wanted what was best for them...which would have been shown by their involvement and  follow-thru...they only came away with the desire to not get caught.  Because they were not taught that their actions hurt others or that the parents cared...then all the inmates came away with was to be self-centered and then also, to try and avoid trouble. Most of the inmates remember the parents saying things like, "Don't do it again or you'll get it worse"...or, "I know you don't want to get in trouble again, so you'd better shape up!". SO, basically, they were taught and shown that it's all about dodging consequences  and avoiding pain....therefore, they just went about the business of trying not to get caught...because that IS the only "lesson" they learned when "disciplined".

To put this in biblical terms, the law is and was unfeeling, impersonal and all about punishment (pain) as a way of behavior management....however, now, we have an actual Person and His Spirit (that are NOT inanimate) to lead us into right living. Yes, we are disciplined....but it is by God (Who IS love) Himself with His HS as our unction, comforter and guide...and Jesus our Redeemer and Example of how to live. The law is no longer a nursemaid or disciplinarian....because we are directly connected with God Himself and His HS.



Peace! Blessings!

I see zero reason to hit a child unless they don't respond to less physical methods.  I won't let my children run amok and I have never had to hit my kids.  I also don't believe hitting your child is a Biblical principle.  Sparing the rod I believe refers to sparing discipline.  If your child responds to other methods why lay a hand on em?

I grew up in a household where my mother did physical discipline, and my father used his words.

My mother used plastic spoons, and belts. Sometimes I would be back slapped with her hand. At one point my mother kind of "lost it" when I was 12. I was playing piano, and she came running downstairs with the belt claiming I was playing too fast (which was misbehaving according to her), and "beat" me with the belt. It was only a few lashes, and left a black and blue welt on my knee. At this point I had, had enough. I had 3 younger siblings, one being a 13 month younger brother who was ADHD. He had been "physically disciplined" multiple times over behaviors that I really think he struggled with mentally. He was a test drug baby, being ripped off of different psychotropic meds, and put on others until they found what worked. The next day I called CPS on my mother, and though she gave me silent treatment for a week, and was extremely mad at me, she never laid a hand on any of her four children again.

My youngest brother, and sister were never "physically beaten." They were grounded, put in time outs, and had loss of things such as computer, games, etc. My sister ended up playing on a world series softball team, and is attending college becoming a dietitian. My brother is still relatively young, 13, and is first chair in his school band, in the advance program, and is pulling straight A's. Both attend church every sunday, and fully believe and live their lives for christ.

My brother who had ADHD and was "physically disciplined" is attending college but struggling. He does not attend church but does believe in God. He frequently partakes in drinking, but I love him very much because I know his past haunts him.

Myself. I am married to a wonderful Jesus worshiping man. I dropped out of college (I attended bible college but I hated the constant bickering especially between the Calvinists and evangelicals). I am returning this fall for nursing.  I work with Abused foster children in a residential therapeutic home. My work does not believe in corporal punishment, and our success rate is high. We have been featured on ABC News for one of the most successful residential homes of foster children in America. We care for level 5 kids, which are extremely tough kids with a ton of unsafe behavior. However, they are loved so much, and are shown how to live a good moral life.

I grew up with Authoritarian parents. I was never explained what I did wrong, or how I could have handled the situation better until I was older around 19. I dealt with a lot of anger management issues growing up because of the discipline my parents used. I was saved at the age of 17, knowing that God would never lose my trust, nor would He ever forsake me. He loves me, even when I do wrong. I always wished my parents would have just talked to me, maybe even show me more praise for my "good" behaviors. But it's in the past now, and after a lot of healing from the Lord (and I mean a lot, I'm still healing to this day) I am able to love my parents very much and I look up to them.

Physical abuse: "Physical abuse is abuse involving contact intended to cause feelings of intimidation, pain, injury, or other physical suffering or bodily harm"
That would describe belting (whippings), using instruments instead of a hand in a calm caring way, etc. This includes switching as well.
No matter how soft, or how caring, using these instruments can and may leave a physical mark on your child. I remember having a few (my mom didn't try to beat the crud out of me), she did it to try to get me controlled. I suffered psychological issues from this.

I think the best parenting is by words. God doesn't kill me, nor physically punish me. He loves me, yearns for me, cares for me, and watches over me. Do I suffer consequences of sin? Yes. But is he always forgiving? Yes.  I don't need to supply scripture because this is what the whole NT is all about! Jesus was whipped, and nailed to a cross for us! Why do I need to do that to my children?

I should add, my younger siblings were never touched again because I made that call. Thank God for every day that  I live, that my sister and brother will never be affected the way I was.

I've been raised in a traditional Catholic household.  Responsible parents will see their task to nurture the  moral and physical development of their children. There is no way that this can be done in my view without at some time resorting to punishment as well as the granting of rewards. Different parents have different views as to what is the most effective form of sanctions. In my view, so long as the rules are humane and clearly communicated, and any punishment for infringement is  reasonable and proportionate and carried out in a spirit of love, nobody can definitively state that one method surpasses another as a universal rule. In fact my parents did believe that a quick, sharp spanking was often the appropriate remedy, though they also use grounding, withdrawal of privileges, extra chores, cancelling allowances etc.

This is a great find.   I am glad you shared this with us.

: DocLogic77  Tue Jun 22, 2010 - 21:54:28
I see zero reason to hit a child unless they don't respond to less physical methods.  I won't let my children run amok and I have never had to hit my kids.  I also don't believe hitting your child is a Biblical principle.  Sparing the rod I believe refers to sparing discipline.  If your child responds to other methods why lay a hand on em?

  Agree totally. Being firm and using discipline doesnt need to invole hitting /beating/spanking. It involves being consistant and firm when needed. I also agree that the Bible is speaking about good discipline and not about hitting.

Chosenone,

Since you decided to come back to this topic, I must reiterate my requests for you to provide biblical support for your position.

I don't believe I ever received any.

Please read the 23rd psalm. The 'rod' here does not refer to a hitting impliment, but a guiding and protecting one. The one verse that I am aware of that some use to justify hitting a child (spare the rod)is the same word that is used in this psalm. The shepherd does not hit his sheep but gently guides them along the path to make sure they dont stray,and protects them also.A good example for us to follow with our own children. Guiding and protecting them.  
psalm 23 v4 amplified
....for you are with me:Your rod (to protect) your staff (to guide) they comfort me.

My husband was a very sensitive little boy who was beaten with a belt by his mum(a Christian)and even now he is 53, he still clearly remembers instances where this happened and it has affected him a lot. Its makes my blood run cold to even think about it. Horrible.

I agree that "spare the rod" is quoted out of context. I agree it is  perfectly possible to bring up children excellently without employing physical discipline. I also agree that condoning the use of corporal punishment gives a licence to abusive parents. There is no excuse for inflicting violence upon or striking a child in anger. I can therefore see the strength of the abolitionist cause. I have to reconcile this with my own upbringing where spanking was used in a measured and controlled fashion and reserved for serious offences. There was always fair warning provided of the consequences which would flow from specific misdemeanours and the spankings themselves though unpleasant were completed swiftly and in no way compromised our physical wellbeing.

I am always dismayed when I hear people take the absolute stand against spanking because they knew someone who inappropriately disciplined a child. :(  

It also bothers me when, in order to answer for the biblical advice to swat, the verses are said to be taken out of context.  That would mean that any verse that makes us uncomfortable, or that we can't fully understand can be dismissed because "it has been taken out of context."  I don't think this is a wise way to go, honestly.

God used corporal punishment, but on very rare occasions and always because of outright rebellion and defiance displaying strong willed, stiff necked behavior.  It never made Him happy.  That is true of a parent who spanks as well.  

Christ turned over tables and used a whip to drive the money changers out of the temple.  Again, He didn't do this every time the Pharisees ticked Him off, but when it was appropriate and as a last resort, He did use corporal punishment.

My oldest is past the swatting age, but is grounded right now.  He is *the* happiest he has been in a LOOONG time.  I cracked up at him last night and told him he must be the only teenager in the world that is happier after discipline and being grounded.  He grinned and told me it was because he was "free" from having to sneak about and hide things.  It made me think back to when he was of swatting age...he was exactly like that.  He would be an absolute *pill* and nothing would snap him out of it; not time out, not talking to, not toy removal, not loss of Barney or Seasame St., nothing...until I finally had to swat his little bum.  He would physically relax and actually sigh and become his happy little self again.  It reminded me of the verse that has been brought up about God's rod and staff comforting.  My son was comforted by effective discipline then and still is today.  I believe that is what that verse it talking about.  God's discipline comforts us because we are then "free" from having to try and sneak around and hide things from Him. We are comforted when things are out in the open, dealt with correctly and then we are restored to righteousness.

I see zero reason to hit a child unless they don't respond to less physical methods.  I won't let my children run amok and I have never had to hit my kids.  I also don't believe hitting your child is a Biblical principle.  Sparing the rod I believe refers to sparing discipline.  If your child responds to other methods why lay a hand on em?

Agree totally. Being firm and using discipline doesnt need to invole hitting /beating/spanking. It involves being consistant and firm when needed. I also agree that the Bible is speaking about good discipline and not about hitting.

Your post surprises me Chosen, most often you take a direct meaning from Scripture.

Pro 23:13  Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.

Pro 29:15  The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.

Pro 26:3  A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back.

Pro 22:15  Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

Pro 13:24  He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

H7626
שׁבט
shêbeṭ
shay'-bet
From an unused root probably meaning to branch off; a scion, that is, (literally) a stick (for punishing, writing, fighting, ruling, walking, etc.) or (figuratively) a clan: -  X correction, dart, rod, sceptre, staff, tribe.


Deu 21:18  If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
Deu 21:19  Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
Deu 21:20  And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
Deu 21:21  And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Very harsh words we tend to think of God as a Teddybear. 

Not all kids need a spanking.  My older sister never got a spanking.. I know of one time jack  got  Dads belt for talking disrespect to Mom. Dad had his belt off and wrapped around Jacks legs in a flash. Jack must have been 13...strange jack was never insulting again.  Me I was the 'Preacher's kid ' of jokes.  I would weigh the value of doing XYZ against a spanking.  Spanking won some lost some. 

: chosenone  Thu Jul 15, 2010 - 22:02:22
Please read the 23rd psalm. The 'rod' here does not refer to a hitting impliment, but a guiding and protecting one. The one verse that I am aware of that some use to justify hitting a child (spare the rod)is the same word that is used in this psalm. The shepherd does not hit his sheep but gently guides them along the path to make sure they dont stray,and protects them also.A good example for us to follow with our own children. Guiding and protecting them. 
psalm 23 v4 amplified
....for you are with me:Your rod (to protect) your staff (to guide) they comfort me.

My husband was a very sensitive little boy who was beaten with a belt by his mum(a Christian)and even now he is 53, he still clearly remembers instances where this happened and it has affected him a lot. Its makes my blood run cold to even think about it. Horrible.

Child abuse is NEVER OK .  With out discounting my other post i agree with you also but some kids are better off for the swat.

: Eagle  Mon Jul 19, 2010 - 19:03:07

: chosenone  Thu Jul 15, 2010 - 22:02:22
Please read the 23rd psalm. The 'rod' here does not refer to a hitting impliment, but a guiding and protecting one. The one verse that I am aware of that some use to justify hitting a child (spare the rod)is the same word that is used in this psalm. The shepherd does not hit his sheep but gently guides them along the path to make sure they dont stray,and protects them also.A good example for us to follow with our own children. Guiding and protecting them. 
psalm 23 v4 amplified
....for you are with me:Your rod (to protect) your staff (to guide) they comfort me.

My husband was a very sensitive little boy who was beaten with a belt by his mum(a Christian)and even now he is 53, he still clearly remembers instances where this happened and it has affected him a lot. Its makes my blood run cold to even think about it. Horrible.

Child abuse is NEVER OK .  With out discounting my other post i agree with you also but some kids are better off for the swat.

Maybe I was lucky with my kids but honestly on the very few occasions that I did spank them (once on the bottom)I felt really convicted that it wasnt the thing to do,and it didnt help them in the least. They were lovely and well behaved kids (everyone was always telling me this) . I was always firm and very consistant, if I said no I meant it, but they never needed spanking in that way and the thought of using a cane or stick,or belt or whatever, I could no more hit my kids like that than fly.The thought makes me cringe.
I used the rod as the shepherd did in the 23rd psalm, to guide and lead and keep them on the right track.They are now age 32, 29 and 25, all lovely young people. I led by example and teaching, consistancy and firmness and love.
I can only remember one occasion in my whole childhood when I was spanked on the back side,I have no recollection of what is was for, and hopefully I have turned out OK.lol

By the way the example of my husband being hit with a belt. His mum is a Christian and thought she was doing the Biblical thing when she hit them.I am sure she would quote all the verses to justify it. When my husband had 2 sons she even told him and his former wife to use the belt on them, as it was the 'right' thing to do. They didnt use a  belt. The thing is that my husband was a very sensitive little boy,and it harmed him then. He still has bad memories of a few occasions when he used to hide behind his dad to escape the belt. His dad didnt hit him, he didnt believe it was right. only his mum.

I do think the use of an implement crosses the line. They are capable of causing serious injury and at the very least the kind of marking or bruising which is now considered illegal in the UK. A  short sharp spanking by hand over clothing or undies can convey a clear message very effectively but without inflicting trauma or injury. It is a remedy if used at all to be used sparingly, not to create an unpredictable climate of fear. I firmly believe that any punishment administered in a responsible and loving manner is acceptable.

: celine  Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 06:54:12
I do think the use of an implement crosses the line. They are capable of causing serious injury and at the very least the kind of marking or bruising which is now considered illegal in the UK. A  short sharp spanking by hand over clothing or undies can convey a clear message very effectively but without inflicting trauma or injury. It is a remedy if used at all to be used sparingly, not to create an unpredictable climate of fear. I firmly believe that any punishment administered in a responsible and loving manner is acceptable.

celine are you British then?I am English.
Yes I agree about the use of an impliment, belt, cane, paddle or whatever.

As a general point, it just seems strange to me that if a person comes up to me or you and hits us with an impliment, they can be arrested and charged with actual bodily harm, and yet we think it is ok to hit a small child, who may only be a third of the the size of us with one.I just dont get it, really, especially if there are many alternatives that really do work.

: chosenone  Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 08:36:09
As a general point, it just seems strange to me that if a person comes up to me or you and hits us with an impliment, they can be arrested and charged with actual bodily harm, and yet we think it is ok to hit a small child, who may only be a third of the the size of us with one.I just dont get it, really, especially if there are many alternatives that really do work.

See?  This bothers me...the way you are wording this.  If a parent just comes up to a child and just hauls off and hits them, that is not spanking, that is abuse.  Parents who have strong willed children, and who are *just* as firm and consistant as you say you were do NOT just walk up to our kids and wallop them out of the blue.  There is no "hitting" the way you are twisting it to sound.  I also have lovely well behaved kids...who are strong willed, so all the theories didn't exactly work on them.  I am a child development major too, so I was very distraught that everything I had been taught and bought into didn't work like was promised.

Also, spanking is not the only disciplinary tool used and it is (if done properly) as a last resort when the child continues behaving in unacceptable ways after all the other methods do not get the results of a changed behavior.

Hi Chosenone
I live in Scotland but I was born in Ireland.
As I've said, I don't think implements should be used. I'm not sure you are using a fair analogy. If a stranger imprisoned me against my will, he could be arrested. That doesn't make it wrong for my parents to ground me.  If I behaved outrageously, like coming home very drunk or throwing a part where the house got thrashed, I would imagine my mother would still apply heat to my seat to be honest.

: chosenone  Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 03:30:15
By the way the example of my husband being hit with a belt. His mum is a Christian and thought she was doing the Biblical thing when she hit them.I am sure she would quote all the verses to justify it. When my husband had 2 sons she even told him and his former wife to use the belt on them, as it was the 'right' thing to do. They didnt use a  belt. The thing is that my husband was a very sensitive little boy,and it harmed him then. He still has bad memories of a few occasions when he used to hide behind his dad to escape the belt. His dad didnt hit him, he didnt believe it was right. only his mum.

She clearly needed to discipline in love, not just allow herself to be swept away by the "permission" to use the rod.  Just because she was out of control in her deliverance of spanking, does not mean all parents who spank are like her or even approach the issue remotely the same way.  People use verses to justify their sin all the time...and they use the "out of context" claim to do the same.   Unless we are guided by the Holy Spirit anyone can twist and turn God's word.  Even Satan knew enough of God's word to twist it and tempt Christ.  Just like your MIL, he was wrong.

I don't think spankings are for every child.  Your dh was obviously one who it was *not* wise to use on.  A good parent takes the time to find what works to train up their child, not what allows them to blow off steam and feel better for getting their pent up anger out.

I also don't think every parent should use spankings.  Your mil sounds like she should not have.  She couldn't do it with compassion, just rage.

What I wish, is that your posts would reflect Romans 14.  We are all not going to have the same convictions, but to make the convictions of others sound wrong and abusive is not showing grace IMO.  It would cause you to stumble for me to swat my little one in front of you, so I would not do that, but I also would not immediately assume and speak out that your methods were negative or compair them to anything negative or abusive.  What worked for *your* children may not work for *all* children.

You said you felt convicted for swatting, and I can tell you that I felt the same when I refused to use swatting, because I had put all my hope in the theories and other methods. I was convicted because my kid's wills were/are stronger  than the theories accounted for...and I was losing them.  I felt the conviction that the methods were *not* working on my kids in the command to train them up in the way they should go, respecting their parents, making sure to help them with their conduct being pure and right.  Does that mean I just started wailing on them? Nope, not even a little bit, but what it did was give me one more tool to use when the theories feel short.  Did/do I have to swat daily...not even close.  I have to swat my youngest *very* rarely..just like her older sister and brothers.  What did happen, was when my oldest knew swatting was added to the table, they took the other methods more seriously because they knew if they pushed and tested, there was a real boundary they could no longer cross that actually made them want to stop their poor behavior.

Some folks will take Dr. Spock's word over Gods Word.


Pro 10:13  In the lips of him that hath understanding wisdom is found: but a rod is for the back of him that is void of understanding.



I feel the above scripture tells a lot.  Talking , reasoning, etc is first then if that doesn't get their attition spank    not hit, not slug, not abuse. 

: JMT  Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 09:20:49

: chosenone  Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 03:30:15
By the way the example of my husband being hit with a belt. His mum is a Christian and thought she was doing the Biblical thing when she hit them.I am sure she would quote all the verses to justify it. When my husband had 2 sons she even told him and his former wife to use the belt on them, as it was the 'right' thing to do. They didnt use a  belt. The thing is that my husband was a very sensitive little boy,and it harmed him then. He still has bad memories of a few occasions when he used to hide behind his dad to escape the belt. His dad didnt hit him, he didnt believe it was right. only his mum.

She clearly needed to discipline in love, not just allow herself to be swept away by the "permission" to use the rod.  Just because she was out of control in her deliverance of spanking, does not mean all parents who spank are like her or even approach the issue remotely the same way.  People use verses to justify their sin all the time...and they use the "out of context" claim to do the same.   Unless we are guided by the Holy Spirit anyone can twist and turn God's word.  Even Satan knew enough of God's word to twist it and tempt Christ.  Just like your MIL, he was wrong.

I don't think spankings are for every child.  Your dh was obviously one who it was *not* wise to use on.  A good parent takes the time to find what works to train up their child, not what allows them to blow off steam and feel better for getting their pent up anger out.

I also don't think every parent should use spankings.  Your mil sounds like she should not have.  She couldn't do it with compassion, just rage.

What I wish, is that your posts would reflect Romans 14.  We are all not going to have the same convictions, but to make the convictions of others sound wrong and abusive is not showing grace IMO.  It would cause you to stumble for me to swat my little one in front of you, so I would not do that, but I also would not immediately assume and speak out that your methods were negative or compair them to anything negative or abusive.  What worked for *your* children may not work for *all* children.

You said you felt convicted for swatting, and I can tell you that I felt the same when I refused to use swatting, because I had put all my hope in the theories and other methods. I was convicted because my kid's wills were/are stronger  than the theories accounted for...and I was losing them.  I felt the conviction that the methods were *not* working on my kids in the command to train them up in the way they should go, respecting their parents, making sure to help them with their conduct being pure and right.  Does that mean I just started wailing on them? Nope, not even a little bit, but what it did was give me one more tool to use when the theories feel short.  Did/do I have to swat daily...not even close.  I have to swat my youngest *very* rarely..just like her older sister and brothers.  What did happen, was when my oldest knew swatting was added to the table, they took the other methods more seriously because they knew if they pushed and tested, there was a real boundary they could no longer cross that actually made them want to stop their poor behavior.

  She wouldnt say she was out of control, she would say that was what God wanted her to do. All I can say is that she knows a different God from the one I do.

[
[/quote]

  She wouldnt say she was out of control, she would say that was what God wanted her to do. All I can say is that she knows a different God from the one I do.
[/quote]

Many people do terrible things in the name of God, but which are in fact utterly opposed to God's word. I feel great sympathy for your husband's plight. Childhood should be a happy, secure time.   I don't believe that spanking in moderation is comparable to this kind of callous brutality. I think toxic parents can inflict harm psychologically as much as physically. I don't believe either that the Bible either mandates or prohibits spanking. It is a question of what makes for good parenting practice and people are entitled to differ in their views.

: Eagle  Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 09:41:45
Some folks will take Dr. Spock's word over Gods Word.


Pro 10:13  In the lips of him that hath understanding wisdom is found: but a rod is for the back of him that is void of understanding.



I feel the above scripture tells a lot.  Talking , reasoning, etc is first then if that doesn't get their attition spank    not hit, not slug, not abuse.  

Dr Spock?? Havent a clue what he said.
I had my children at a young age, 21 when I had my first, but my mothering instinct was strong and much of it was intuition that has proved to be right. I was also helped greatly by having a brilliant mum, (who by the way I cant remember ever hitting us) and even though she had a terrible upbringing, much of it in a strict orphanage, she bought us up really well with no physical punishment. Her mothing skills were also intuitive, and she was the best mum ever. We were 2 very happy and healthy and well balanced little kids.

: chosenone  Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 10:21:34
She wouldnt say she was out of control, she would say that was what God wanted her to do. All I can say is that she knows a different God from the one I do.

No, she knows the same God that you do...she is just one that is described in Romans 14...different in understanding and conviction of what the scripture is saying, and needs to be shown grace.

We all want to define God by what makes us comfortable, but He is who He is...His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts.  It makes me uncomfortable to think of Him the way the OT describes Him when He ordered the complete slaughter of evil nations..even the babies.  Is that a different God than the one you know?  

: chosenone  Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 10:50:44
Dr Spock?? Havent a clue what he said.
I had my children at a young age, 21 when I had my first, but my mothering instinct was strong and much of it was intuition that has proved to be right. I was also helped greatly by having a brilliant mum, (who by the way I cant remember ever hitting us) and even though she had a terrible upbringing, much of it in a strict orphanage, she bought us up really well with no physical punishment. Her mothing skills were also intuitive, and she was the best mum ever. We were 2 very happy and healthy and well balanced little kids.

My mothering instinct was strong and remains strong as well.  I was raised differently than I am raising my own kids and that is why I went into C.D.  I wanted to have keys beyond what I had modeled to me, beyond my own intuition, and to enhance what was naturally there.  God's word has given me the healthy balance for me between my gut, my knowledge and my emotion.

: celine  Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 10:49:54
[

 She wouldnt say she was out of control, she would say that was what God wanted her to do. All I can say is that she knows a different God from the one I do.
[/quote]

Many people do terrible things in the name of God, but which are in fact utterly opposed to God's word. I feel great sympathy for your husband's plight. Childhood should be a happy, secure time.   I don't believe that spanking in moderation is comparable to this kind of callous brutality. I think toxic parents can inflict harm psychologically as much as physically. I don't believe either that the Bible either mandates or prohibits spanking. It is a question of what makes for good parenting practice and people are entitled to differ in their views.

[/quote]  

celine I agree to a point but where is the line to be drawn? Many Christians think its OK to hit a child with a stick, paddle or rod or whatever. I think that is awful. The older I have got the more opposed I have got to hitting a child in this way. The more I have seen of how different people have bought up their kids and the positive or negative effects that has had on them now as adults.
By the way, is that true what you said about it being illegal to hit a child with an impliment in the UK?

: JMT  Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 10:57:57

: chosenone  Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 10:50:44
Dr Spock?? Havent a clue what he said.
I had my children at a young age, 21 when I had my first, but my mothering instinct was strong and much of it was intuition that has proved to be right. I was also helped greatly by having a brilliant mum, (who by the way I cant remember ever hitting us) and even though she had a terrible upbringing, much of it in a strict orphanage, she bought us up really well with no physical punishment. Her mothing skills were also intuitive, and she was the best mum ever. We were 2 very happy and healthy and well balanced little kids.

My mothering instinct was strong and remains strong as well.  I was raised differently than I am raising my own kids and that is why I went into C.D.  I wanted to have keys beyond what I had modeled to me, beyond my own intuition, and to enhance what was naturally there.  God's word has given me the healthy balance for me between my gut, my knowledge and my emotion.

For me the proof of the pudding is in the eating. If I can bring up  three lovely young people with no physical violence then why use it? 

: chosenone  Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 11:01:11

: celine  Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 10:49:54
[

 She wouldnt say she was out of control, she would say that was what God wanted her to do. All I can say is that she knows a different God from the one I do.

Many people do terrible things in the name of God, but which are in fact utterly opposed to God's word. I feel great sympathy for your husband's plight. Childhood should be a happy, secure time.   I don't believe that spanking in moderation is comparable to this kind of callous brutality. I think toxic parents can inflict harm psychologically as much as physically. I don't believe either that the Bible either mandates or prohibits spanking. It is a question of what makes for good parenting practice and people are entitled to differ in their views.

[/quote]  

celine I agree to a point but where is the line to be drawn? Many Christians think its OK to hit a child with a stick, paddle or rod or whatever. I think that is awful. The older I have got the more opposed I have got to hitting a child in this way. The more I have seen of how different people have bought up their kids and the positive or negative effects that has had on them now as adults.
By the way, is that true what you said about it being illegal to hit a child with an impliment in the UK?
[/quote]

This is an unfair characterization of what spanking is...not that I think you are going to change your mind or use speech filled with more grace than you are now...I just want to once more make it clear that you are being unfair to characterize parents who discipline differently from you like this.

: JMT  Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 10:51:34

: chosenone  Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 10:21:34
She wouldnt say she was out of control, she would say that was what God wanted her to do. All I can say is that she knows a different God from the one I do.

No, she knows the same God that you do...she is just one that is described in Romans 14...different in understanding and conviction of what the scripture is saying, and needs to be shown grace.

We all want to define God by what makes us comfortable, but He is who He is...His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts.  It makes me uncomfortable to think of Him the way the OT describes Him when He ordered the complete slaughter of evil nations..even the babies.  Is that a different God than the one you know?  

The God that I know as my loving Dad, would never want a sensitive small boy to be repeatedly hit with a belt, so much so that at the age of 53 he still vividly remembers it with fear. Also he has no relationship to speak of with his mother and moved the other side of  the world from her when he was in his 20's.

: chosenone  Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 11:04:28

: JMT  Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 10:57:57

: chosenone  Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 10:50:44
Dr Spock?? Havent a clue what he said.
I had my children at a young age, 21 when I had my first, but my mothering instinct was strong and much of it was intuition that has proved to be right. I was also helped greatly by having a brilliant mum, (who by the way I cant remember ever hitting us) and even though she had a terrible upbringing, much of it in a strict orphanage, she bought us up really well with no physical punishment. Her mothing skills were also intuitive, and she was the best mum ever. We were 2 very happy and healthy and well balanced little kids.

My mothering instinct was strong and remains strong as well.  I was raised differently than I am raising my own kids and that is why I went into C.D.  I wanted to have keys beyond what I had modeled to me, beyond my own intuition, and to enhance what was naturally there.  God's word has given me the healthy balance for me between my gut, my knowledge and my emotion.

For me the proof of the pudding is in the eating. If I can bring up  three lovely young people with no physical violence then why use it? 

You *clearly* did NOT *need* to use it!  God clearly saw fit to give your children the temperaments that did NOT require an occasional swat!  You can understand that your children are unique and different from other children, right?  I have four kiddos, one who simply needs a stern talking to to straighten him out.  It would be CRUEL for me to swat him, when other methods work.  My other children laughed in the face of other methods sometimes, are strong willed and *needed* a swat to correct them and let them know they are not in charge and they must respect authority.

Surely you are not making your children and yourself the standard by which all parenting is judged, right?

: chosenone  Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 11:08:54
 The God that I know as my loving Dad, would never want a sensitive small boy to be repeatedly hit with a belt, so much so that at the age of 53 he still vividly remembers it with fear. Also he has no relationship to speak of with his mother and moved the other side of  the world from her when he was in his 20's.

yes, me as well...but Chosen, that is not the only aspect of His personality.  He also brought the hammer down when need be, and though it makes us uncomfortable to look at, embrace and even acknowledge...God *did* sometimes do what seems to us to be harsh, ugly things...like demanding the slaughter of babies in the OT.

I do NOT think your mil was right in how she dealt with your dh, but she is not the standard by which parents who swat should be measured.  She.  Was.  Wrong.  I think I said that already.  Her punishment discouraged her child and broke his spirit..that is not what God calls us to.  

: JMT  Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 11:05:24

: chosenone  Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 11:01:11

: celine  Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 10:49:54
[

 She wouldnt say she was out of control, she would say that was what God wanted her to do. All I can say is that she knows a different God from the one I do.

Many people do terrible things in the name of God, but which are in fact utterly opposed to God's word. I feel great sympathy for your husband's plight. Childhood should be a happy, secure time.   I don't believe that spanking in moderation is comparable to this kind of callous brutality. I think toxic parents can inflict harm psychologically as much as physically. I don't believe either that the Bible either mandates or prohibits spanking. It is a question of what makes for good parenting practice and people are entitled to differ in their views.

celine I agree to a point but where is the line to be drawn? Many Christians think its OK to hit a child with a stick, paddle or rod or whatever. I think that is awful. The older I have got the more opposed I have got to hitting a child in this way. The more I have seen of how different people have bought up their kids and the positive or negative effects that has had on them now as adults.
By the way, is that true what you said about it being illegal to hit a child with an impliment in the UK?
[/quote]

This is an unfair characterization of what spanking is...not that I think you are going to change your mind or use speech filled with more grace than you are now...I just want to once more make it clear that you are being unfair to characterize parents who discipline differently from you like this.
[/quote]

I don't think we can lump all parents who believe in spanking  together. There is a VAST different between the ones who give the very occasional smack, from those who beat or hit with a paddle or swatch or stick which leaves a welt or horrible red mark.
In my opinion some parents go way over the line of what is necessary,and I have seen children grow up to be so resentful and angry.It doesn't surprise me. If I was hit or beaten I would feel hurt and angry as well.

I just don't get why we think it is OK to do things to a small child that we would never do to a spouse or another adult.Yet they are smaller and weaker and need more protection.  

: chosenone  Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 11:16:51
I don't think we can lump all parents who believe in spanking  together. There is a VAST different between the ones who give the very occasional smack, from those who beat or hit with a paddle or swatch or stick which leaves a welt or horrible red mark.
In my opinion some parents go way over the line of what is necessary,and I have seen children grow up to be so resentful and angry.It doesn't surprise me. If I was hit or beaten I would feel hurt and angry as well.

I just don't get why we think it is OK to do things to a small child that we would never do to a spouse or another adult.Yet they are smaller and weaker and need more protection.  

I agree with you.  I am glad to read that you are seeing the difference, thank you for that!   ::prayinghard:: ::smile::

What you describe being over the line, is just like you said: WRONG UGLY and even SIN.  Parents are not to discourage or provoke undo anger in our children that will cause a bitter root to take hold and grow.  We are to lead children *to* the Lord, not do things that drive them away. 

[[/quote]  

celine I agree to a point but where is the line to be drawn? Many Christians think its OK to hit a child with a stick, paddle or rod or whatever. I think that is awful. The older I have got the more opposed I have got to hitting a child in this way. The more I have seen of how different people have bought up their kids and the positive or negative effects that has had on them now as adults.
By the way, is that true what you said about it being illegal to hit a child with an impliment in the UK?
[/quote]

Using an implement is illegal in Scotland. In the rest of the UK, spanking must be "reasonable" and not leave marking or bruising. In every kind of punishment a line has to be drawn between what is reasonable or unreasonable. I agree with you that the danger in permitting spanking without prescribing limits is that it can become open season for abusers. In fact, I wouldn't object if it was banned altogether for that reason. The point I'm making is that spanking used properly is not inherently evil. It is possible to raise kids without using it, as you have done so successfully. Equally you could bring up kids without ever grounding them, but that doesn't make grounding wrong. I think my parents raised me well and the fact that I was spanked into my teens while shocking to some for me was rightful dessert for the sin of disobedience.

: JMT  Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 09:01:42

: chosenone  Tue Jul 20, 2010 - 08:36:09
As a general point, it just seems strange to me that if a person comes up to me or you and hits us with an impliment, they can be arrested and charged with actual bodily harm, and yet we think it is ok to hit a small child, who may only be a third of the the size of us with one.I just dont get it, really, especially if there are many alternatives that really do work.

See?  This bothers me...the way you are wording this.  If a parent just comes up to a child and just hauls off and hits them, that is not spanking, that is abuse.  Parents who have strong willed children, and who are *just* as firm and consistant as you say you were do NOT just walk up to our kids and wallop them out of the blue.  There is no "hitting" the way you are twisting it to sound.  I also have lovely well behaved kids...who are strong willed, so all the theories didn't exactly work on them.  I am a child development major too, so I was very distraught that everything I had been taught and bought into didn't work like was promised.

Also, spanking is not the only disciplinary tool used and it is (if done properly) as a last resort when the child continues behaving in unacceptable ways after all the other methods do not get the results of a changed behavior.

With this said though, then that would give myself the justification that if someone was acting out of line (anyone for that matter) then I should have the right to put them back in their place with a physical method.

Belts, spanking, etc. really developed a huge anger management issue in me as a teenager. Before I found Christ, I had gotten in physical fights, because I felt that person was being disrespectful and they needed to be put in their place.

However, I would like to say this. God gives me absolute grace upon my actions. It's not like I walk in life thinking "oh it's totally cool if I sin, God's gonna forgive me anyways." But even as an adult, I make mistakes! And God forgives me, and teaches me a lesson that is condusive and really educates me on how I could have avoided the situation, make it better, etc. If my parents would have sat down with me, and had a discussion explaining why it was wrong for me to act like I did, and what I could have do next time to be better, I believe a 100% I would have never had any anger management issues to deal with.

P.s.... I am not insulting your parenting skills, or saying that anything is wrong with your children. But trauma in it's truest form, can make a child act out in unimagineable ways. It's not that they're wanting to be bad, it's how they know how to deal with a situation. I think sometimes people don't sit down and really investigate what's going on with their kid, instead they just think the kid is being horrible, and making really poor choices. I always believe in getting down to the root of the problem. Some kids need help developing good coping skills, and social skills.

I've been a mom....and also a preschool teacher for 19 yrs....so I've had kids in different settings and in varying groups sizes. To me, probably because I had to learn to discipline without spanking...integrity became the key to training children. Meaning, children mind me because of integrity, not because I will hurt them. They learn that mommy or "Miss Jenny means her words" so, this causes their behaviors to come in line because they know that I will consistantly make them accountable for their behaviors. If they hurt someone, then they have to make it right. If they break something, then they have to make it right.......so, basically they don't behave out of fear of how misbehaving will affect them, but out of knowing and learning that they have to be responsible for their behaviors because of HOW their behaviors affect others. 

: inhimwearefree12  Wed Jul 21, 2010 - 00:55:39
P.s.... I am not insulting your parenting skills, or saying that anything is wrong with your children. But trauma in it's truest form, can make a child act out in unimagineable ways. It's not that they're wanting to be bad, it's how they know how to deal with a situation. I think sometimes people don't sit down and really investigate what's going on with their kid, instead they just think the kid is being horrible, and making really poor choices. I always believe in getting down to the root of the problem. Some kids need help developing good coping skills, and social skills.

Just wanting to reassure you that my children who have been blessed with strong wills by God and my child who is blessed with a more compliant nature have suffered no trauma in their lives.  I have *never* told them or thought that they were horrible, or flippantly making poor choices.  I *always* have discussions with them that gets at the heart (or root of the problem), because if not, we are just blowing smoke at symptoms and not dealing with heart change...the lines of communication in our home are very open and I am eager to hear from them as well, and they know that. 

It is amazing to me how much people can assume when they hear parents say they know their kids temperaments...its like they are saying they know better what is "really" going on, the kids motives, the parents motives, what is missing in the parenting etc. Oh well.  ::frown::  I am a child development major who is a preschool teacher presently...I understand to the best of my ability how the mind of a child (in general) works.

Be blessed.  ::smile::

: ela  Wed Jul 21, 2010 - 07:58:21
Meaning, children mind me because of integrity, not because I will hurt them.

I don't even know how to reply to this... ::frown::  It assumes much.

: ela  Wed Jul 21, 2010 - 07:58:21
I've been a mom....and also a preschool teacher for 19 yrs....so I've had kids in different settings and in varying groups sizes. To me, probably because I had to learn to discipline without spanking...integrity became the key to training children. Meaning, children mind me because of integrity, not because I will hurt them. They learn that mommy or "Miss Jenny means her words" so, this causes their behaviors to come in line because they know that I will consistantly make them accountable for their behaviors. If they hurt someone, then they have to make it right. If they break something, then they have to make it right.......so, basically they don't behave out of fear of how misbehaving will affect them, but out of knowing and learning that they have to be responsible for their behaviors because of HOW their behaviors affect others. 

I like you work in an environment which we relay on a certain thing called "The Restorative Approach". I deal with abused foster kids who are at risk, and in our group home to work on treatment. We do these things called Restorative tasks, in which because of the incident they have to complete 3 tasks. Sometimes it could be roleplaying what could have gone better, how the situation affects them and those around them. I love it in a sense because children can really look at what are the consequences of their actions as they get older, and how to mend a broken relationship. I really like using sentences such as "You really hurt my feelings so and so when you do this...". But if I did not have a relationship with these kids, it would never work. I barely knew my dad very well until about a year ago, we became closer. I understand his ways, and communication so much more, and his love for me is so much more real to me now, than it ever has been. My parents didn't have a lot of open ended conversations with me, it was mostly just pressuring me into saying why I did something, even though a lot of times I didn't know why I did those things. But now I can finally express myself is someone hurts my feelings, or does something that really bothers me. So yeah, I totally agree a firm intregity and foundation is where the root has to be. Also trust!

: JMT  Wed Jul 21, 2010 - 08:24:32

: inhimwearefree12  Wed Jul 21, 2010 - 00:55:39
P.s.... I am not insulting your parenting skills, or saying that anything is wrong with your children. But trauma in it's truest form, can make a child act out in unimagineable ways. It's not that they're wanting to be bad, it's how they know how to deal with a situation. I think sometimes people don't sit down and really investigate what's going on with their kid, instead they just think the kid is being horrible, and making really poor choices. I always believe in getting down to the root of the problem. Some kids need help developing good coping skills, and social skills.

Just wanting to reassure you that my children who have been blessed with strong wills by God and my child who is blessed with a more compliant nature have suffered no trauma in their lives.  I have *never* told them or thought that they were horrible, or flippantly making poor choices.  I *always* have discussions with them that gets at the heart (or root of the problem), because if not, we are just blowing smoke at symptoms and not dealing with heart change...the lines of communication in our home are very open and I am eager to hear from them as well, and they know that. 

It is amazing to me how much people can assume when they hear parents say they know their kids temperaments...its like they are saying they know better what is "really" going on, the kids motives, the parents motives, what is missing in the parenting etc. Oh well.  ::frown::  I am a child development major who is a preschool teacher presently...I understand to the best of my ability how the mind of a child (in general) works.

Be blessed.  ::smile::

::smile:: Totally! I only say from personal experience. I had a very traumatic childhood from repeated sexual abuse, emotional abuse, a lot of secret keeping, etc. So I think some of my poor choices (even though I think back, and think to myself man I could have been an outrageous out of control kid, luckily and thankfully i wasn't that crazy!) really were outcries to my parents. I think Satan had his hand on all of those situations, like my parents didn't even really ask what was going on, until the night I almost killed myself as a teenager. But thankfully I am now aware of the way kids react to certain traumatic situations, and happenings, that I can ask what is going on, and help them with where they are at, so they don't have to ever come to a point of ending their own life. Thankfully I found Jesus when I was around 20.  ::crackup::

Parents should listen to God and not some duufy psychologist when it comes to raising children. 

Its actually an insult to God to not listen to Him. 

God is perfectly capable of using those with knowledge and wisdom in these areas, just as he is able to use doctors to heal us.
If a parent can bring up polite, well behaved, kind, thoughtful and honest young people, without resorting to hitting or beating them, then thats brilliant, and I have seen it done many times. 

: chosenone  Tue Feb 15, 2011 - 14:04:44
God is perfectly capable of using those with knowledge and wisdom in these areas, just as he is able to use doctors to heal us.
If a parent can bring up polite, well behaved, kind, thoughtful and honest young people, without resorting to hitting or beating them, then thats brilliant, and I have seen it done many times. 

Does your personal experience limited or otherwise trump scripture?

On this topic, apparently it does.  I've seen almost no scriptural support for any of your positions on this topic.  Nothing but personal experience and rhetoric.

For me, spanking is not a discipline it is a form of punishment. Spanking only reinforces negative behavior and doesn't teach children how problems can be solved through proper, positive communication. A child whose behavior is controlled by spanking is likely to carry on this mode of interaction into other relationships with siblings and peers, and eventually a spouse and offspring. Talking is an effective form of discipline. If you think you can't control your teen at all you can consider sending your teen to troubled teen boarding school (http://www.teen-boarding-school.com/).

: ananeuman  Tue Mar 22, 2011 - 04:49:13
For me, spanking is not a discipline it is a form of punishment. Spanking only reinforces negative behavior and doesn't teach children how problems can be solved through proper, positive communication. A child whose behavior is controlled by spanking is likely to carry on this mode of interaction into other relationships with siblings and peers, and eventually a spouse and offspring. Talking is an effective form of discipline. If you think you can't control your teen at all you can consider sending your teen to troubled teen boarding school.

Yet, how many of us were spanked as children & it in no-way-what-so-ever carried over into other areas of our lives?  I was spanked as a child & in no way did it negatively effect my outcome in my life.

My husband & I always go back to Proverbs 13:24, "He who spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes."  We've even heard teachings that suggest that when you go back to the ancient texts, rod is actually translated as club.

I believe there is a difference in how one spanks their child.  A spanking done out of anger serves no purpose.  And we don't spank for every little thing.  If we do have to spank, it is done in a calm manner & after it is done, we sit the child on our lap & make sure of the following:

1.)  Do you understand why you were spanked?
2.)  What should you have done instead?  (We always make sure they know there is alternative behavior, should the situation arise, again.)
3.)  Do you understand what the Bible says about spanking & correction? (We have gone over the verses with them & explained why God instructs this for learning & correction.
4.)  Mommy/Daddy loves you very much & we don't like to spank you, but we did it because. . . (and we review the above one last time).

If done correctly, I believe spanking develops respect for rules & for the parents, rather than a fear of the parents or of being spanked.  It shows the child that there are consequences for inappropriate behavior. 

Children can respect their parents without being hit by them. Good discipline means consistency and not necessarily physical punishment. Parents can be strict and consistant withut resorting to hitting/spanking. I was always consistant and firm with my kids, and they were always well behaved and have turned lovely caring young adults. Hitting/beating/spanking isn't needed to bring up godly kids.

The rod was used by the shepherd to guide the sheep and lambs, and not to beat them with. I wouldnt beat my dog, so why on earth would I beat my kids.

The shepherd would break the leg of a lamb that constantly strayed.

The "rod of correction" mentioned in Scripture wasn't a "time out" or a "good talking to" - that's for sure.

: chosenone  Tue Mar 22, 2011 - 08:02:02
Children can respect their parents without being hit by them. Good discipline means consistency and not necessarily physical punishment. Parents can be strict and consistant withut resorting to hitting/spanking. I was always consistant and firm with my kids, and they were always well behaved and have turned lovely caring young adults. Hitting/beating/spanking isn't needed to bring up godly kids.

The rod was used by the shepherd to guide the sheep and lambs, and not to beat them with. I wouldnt beat my dog, so why on earth would I beat my kids.

Thank you chosen!!

The rod (study how Shepard's dealt with their flock) used the crook side to reach out and pull the straying sheep back in, and the straight side was used to keep wolves away....to defend the sheep.

Ok, lets say I spank my child. And it deters them from doing it again. Most parents say, great! However, the work is not finished...so it is not great. Spanking is a short-cut to true "training for life." The child will end up only remembering the spanking as a deterant...which is self-interest, meaning; "I will not hit that person because if I do I will get spanked." , instead of, "I will not hit that person because it hurts them." Yes, there are parents that spank their children who also talk to their kids, and as part of that conversation tell them that they hurt the other person.....however, MOST children will not think of that when they are thinking about whether to misbehave....they will think about themselves....which, again, does not contribute to conscience development.

Think about it. When we sin, it is almost always against someone else....it is not against an inanimate object....it is against a living being, which is why it is a sin. This is why conscience development is so important. In fact it must be in high priority.

I obey God, because I know He is good and I have a fear(/meaning deep reverence) for Him and because I know He means His word...He is faithful and I can trust Him that He knows more then me about life........and SO this is another important reason to train children in another way other then spanking them.....that they obey you not because you will hurt their behind, but that they learn that you have integrity...that you are a good person to revere and trust.

So, it is better to train children in the way, that yes, takes extra steps....as spanking can just make it quicker, "You disobey! You get spanked!" But then this is all that you will teach most children.

Training children in the way that will develop an intrinsic deterant.....a developed conscience and the desire to obey because they trust you....because they know that you mean your words everytime...will teach them to come to you when they mess up, instead of running the other way to avoid being spanked AND TRULY not want to sin because they know how it affects others AND they actually feel empathy towards others....instead of just being interested in how "I" am affected.

I don't know where people who oppose spanking get the idea that parents who do spank just snatch up their kids at the first sign of offense and whale away on them - and then NEVER attempt to teach or shape them in any other way.

It's simplistic and condescending - but of course if you don't make those assumptions, you don't really get a chance to pompously pontificate and sound so, so smart, now do ya?

I have raised - and spanked 6 kids - all boys BTW - and they're all doing just fine, thanks.

Spanking was NEVER a first resource, and never THE only discipline for all cases.  But our boys knew that there were some spankable offenses, and if they made the choice to break those rules, they were assured that discipline would be swift, sure, and then it would be over.

Here's a helpful hint: how about we trust parents to raise their kids and discipline the way the Lord is leading them - instead of belittling them and looking down on them for not choosing what you feel is correct?

So, we should stray from a Biblical teaching just because we don't believe it is proper?  I don't intend offense, but just want to make sure I'm understanding.  Being that God is the Supreme Creator of the family, I feel pretty secure in following His instruction.  And as far as I was aware, Proverbs was speaking of a child & not a sheep or lamb.

And we're not talking about a beating, here (parents who beat their children should be beaten).  At least I'm speaking of a smack on the bottom, enough to cause a sting & make the child stop & think about what they've done.  The spanking is not the punishment.  I think of the spanking as a means to stop the child in their tracks & get them to realize that their full attention is needed on the subject.  Then, we DISCUSS (or TEACH) the offense & how it should have been handled by the child & the Biblical implications.  There is never a spanking without explanation & discussion in our household.  We don't spank & send them on their way without knowing what went wrong.

There are only 3 offenses in our household that merit a spanking.  First is lying, & even then the child has a chance to correct themselves if they are caught in the process of lying.  Second, is the possibility of causing bodily harm to themselves or another.  The final one is out & out disobedience.  Being told not to do something & then turning right around & doing it anyway.  We rarely need to spank our daughters for these offenses.  If you ask them why they don't lie or disobey, they will tell you the Biblical reasonw why.  Not because they will get a spanking.

Where along the line did a true spanking ever get confused with beating a child?  There is a huge difference but people seem to want to group everyone together & condemn them all.  Yes, there are ways to get a child to respect you without having to spank, but have you ever tried to reason with a 3 year old when they haven't been humbled?

Amen - manna for you.

if children can be raised to be good kids and adults who are following God,and who are kind, friendly and polite, and who have honesty and integrity,without hitting them, then what is the point? .The rod is for discipline and not beating.It is for keeping them on the straight path and not for beating fear into them.

I cant see the point of hitting a kid while saying "Johnny I am hitting you because you hit your brother,and it is wrong to hit people"Oh dear  WOOPS, that's what I am doing.doh.

As a mum who loves and adores her kids and has a very strong maternal instinct, beating a child is something that makes my blood run cold. The thought if taking a belt or cane to them makes me cringe in my spirit. God does expect correction and for us to make rules, but I really cant see Jesus taking a stick to those kids who came to him can you?  My kids respect me for the mum I am, and not for making them afraid of me or afraid of the pain that I may cause them.
They are aged 32, 30 and 25 now so I have a good idea of how they have turned out, and I am pretty darned proud of them.

OK, once more. . . there is a difference between spanking & beating.  Are you implying that when I smack my child's rear end no harder than I would smack the back of a dear friend in greeting that I'm beating my child?  Or, to get more to the point, are you saying that I am wrong in discipling my child in what I interpret as the Biblical way of disciplining them (no one has yet disproved the verse in Proverbs to me).

I am not condeming you for not spanking.  I find it wonderful that you did find ways to discipline that worked for your children.  However, my children are quite possibly not wired the same as your children were.  We have a 6 yr. old daughter who will consistently push us to the limits to see where those limits are.  She is a very bright, very loving child but her sin nature is to push & challenge the limits we've set.  To deal with that sin nature, I find it is best to turn to what the Bible teaches on the matter; not what man teaches on the matter.  While we may not feel that something is right or can't picture Jesus doing that, does that mean that the Bible is then wrong on the teaching?  If I am wrong in spanking my child in a Biblical manner, then give me the Bible verses & I will study & learn.  Until then, don't condemn me for disciplining my children as God instructs.

I have no doubt that you are a wonderful mother & that your children turned out quite wonderfully.  That is a testimony to God that you were able to discipline without spanking.  But again, God creates us all differently & puts us all in different situations.  What may have worked for one may not work for another.

: chosenone  Tue Mar 22, 2011 - 08:02:02
Children can respect their parents without being hit by them. Good discipline means consistency and not necessarily physical punishment. Parents can be strict and consistant withut resorting to hitting/spanking. I was always consistant and firm with my kids, and they were always well behaved and have turned lovely caring young adults. Hitting/beating/spanking isn't needed to bring up godly kids.

The rod was used by the shepherd to guide the sheep and lambs, and not to beat them with. I wouldnt beat my dog, so why on earth would I beat my kids.

Use scripture.  I don't want your opinion.  I want your opinion backed up with scripture.

: chosenone  Tue Mar 22, 2011 - 12:25:14
if children can be raised to be good kids and adults who are following God,and who are kind, friendly and polite, and who have honesty and integrity,without hitting them, then what is the point? .The rod is for discipline and not beating.It is for keeping them on the straight path and not for beating fear into them.

I cant see the point of hitting a kid while saying "Johnny I am hitting you because you hit your brother,and it is wrong to hit people"Oh dear  WOOPS, that's what I am doing.doh.

As a mum who loves and adores her kids and has a very strong maternal instinct, beating a child is something that makes my blood run cold. The thought if taking a belt or cane to them makes me cringe in my spirit. God does expect correction and for us to make rules, but I really cant see Jesus taking a stick to those kids who came to him can you?  My kids respect me for the mum I am, and not for making them afraid of me or afraid of the pain that I may cause them.
They are aged 32, 30 and 25 now so I have a good idea of how they have turned out, and I am pretty darned proud of them.

Thanks again chosen,

I appreciate your stance very much....

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I can understand your stance too FollowHisGrace...yes, I can. I can also agree that many parents parent quite well while still believing in it...

I believe that we see God....His character....His various traits....His love and so forth...primarily by the way we were parented, since that was the 1st authority we had over us. Then as we grow we hear that God is our Heavenly Father and Jesus is His Son and we are God's children, and so forth...so, I think it is pretty strong in us to see God the way we were treated by our fathers or lack of, as a child. Anyway, after I began teaching in early childhood education and then had my own children...it began occuring to me as I was still dealing with the abuse that I sustained as a child, HOW important it was to raise children in a way, so that when they grow up that their view of God is already healthy, true and right....and that endeavoring to trust Him and establish a relationship with Him would not be nearly as hard as it was for me.

You wanted scripture to back up what chosen was saying? As in smoking....when a person tells someone that God does not want us to smoke....that someone will say, "Well, then, show me the scriptures for that." But is there really any specific scriptures about smoking? There is scripture about the body being our temple and so forth...and we can most assuredly find more....however, we know it is not good because we know it is missing the mark of what God wants for us...it is unhealthy....and it controls us instead of us being able to control it most of the time.

Anyway, I think you get my drift....

IMO, as I said it is important to raise kids in a way that points to the kind of God we serve....so I have based a lot of how I raise kids on these principles >> God wants us to obey Him, not for fear of punishment....but because we love Him. Yes? Now, I think I can find some scripture to find for this, if you want me too. God also wants us, more then anything, to learn to love Him and our neighbors. Yes? (The New Commandment...which fulfills ALL of God's requirements) Then as we begin to love (develop good conscience/feel compassion) thru the power and leading of the Spirit of God, that helps us to set aside self-interest (sinful/hurtful behavior)...as in Gal. 5:16, "So I advise you to live according to your new life in the Holy Spirit, then you won't be doing what your sinful nature craves."

Training does not have to involve pain...as in scripture, 'If we judge ourselves, then we will not have to be judged by God" (1 Cor. 11:31) As a Shepard with his sheep....he will only break the leg of a lamb that continues to stray...


Anyway, this is why I believe it is important to raise kids the way I have described in my other posts on this thread and maybe at least some of the reasons why chosen doesn't spank either...  

I strongly agree that in cases where there has been abuse, discipline needs to be addressed in a different manner.  I also believe that a spanking done in a non-Christian manner serves little purpose.  When I was growing up, that is how spanking were.  The sting & humiliation were the deterant rather than the Biblical teaching that should have followed.  I find it a great testimony to Christian parents & their children who are able to discipline without spanking.

However, I do believe spanking is Biblical for those who chose to use it as a means for discipline.  And it needs to be done within those Biblical guidelines & all of the love of Christ communicated along with that.  While God does love us so much that He gave His only Son for us, He also says that he is a jealous God & Jesus also gave parables that spoke of punishment & discipline for not obeying.  I took offense at being told that when I spank my children, I am beating them.  Even though the spankings I received as a child were outside of what would be considered Biblical guidelines, those were even a far cry from a beating. 

Yes, there are parents who take it too far.  Even some Christian parents that will tear into their children & hide behind the fact that a spanking is Biblical.  They will have their time at the judgement throne to answer to God.  That is part of the reason spanking has become such a controversial issue in child rearing.  But when another Christian points the finger of condemnation at those of us who use spanking as a last resort & use it under Biblical instruction, it becomes extremely offensive.  It carries the assumption that we spank for the sake of spanking & don't give our children any further instruction.  Yesterday, I in no way told anyone that they were wrong for NOT spanking their children.  In fact, I said (as I did again today) that it was a testimony.  All I did was defend the Biblical teaching of spanking.  Yet, the message I received was that I was less of a parent because I spanked.

ela, I (as always) appreciate your grace in the matter.  There were just some posts, yesterday, that continued to push me into the corner & prove me wrong, rather than acknowledge that maybe I am disciplining in a Christian manner.

Blessings!

ela good post, and I agree totally.I never wanted my kids to do the right thing out of fear of physical pain, but because it was right. I have a brilliant relationship with all three of my adult children, they are lovely young people who I am so proud of. I have lost count of the number of people who have praised them over the years, saying what a credit they are to me etc. So I guess that I must have done something right, especially as I was a single mum for a number of years.

I can only remember one occasion when I was hit as a child, and I hope I turned out OK . My husband was emotionally damaged by his mother hitting him with a belt, and still remembers the fear he then felt, even now, at 54 years old. He was a very sensitive little boy, just like my son was, and it wasnt what he needed at all. His mum believed that it was what she 'should' do as a Christian. They have practically no relationship at all, and havent had since he came to the UK 24 years ago, and not much before that either.

Again, the basic error of the "no spanking" folks posting here recently is the wrong assumption that parents who spank do no other training or discipline - that they just grab the kid, whomp them, and never do any other kind of instruction.

That's a faulty assumption. In fact it's mean-spirited and condescending, and undermines the point they are trying to make.

It is a matter of parental preference, plain and simple. Not wrong, just different.

: FollowHisGrace  Tue Mar 22, 2011 - 12:55:50
While we may not feel that something is right or can't picture Jesus doing that, does that mean that the Bible is then wrong on the teaching?  If I am wrong in spanking my child in a Biblical manner, then give me the Bible verses & I will study & learn. 

If you want to explore the Bible verses that relate to discipline and are often used to support spanking, I would highly suggest this website: http://aolff.org/   You might not agree with it, but I think it is a very thorough and interesting discussion on Biblical discipline and the associated Bible verses.  Go to the tab titled, "Spare the Rod..."

My dad would always talk to us first.  A good whuppin' with a belt would come later.  He said to always politely knock on the front door, that is, by speaking.  If that doesn't work, then you have to bust open the back door.  It teaches the whupee that one should open the front door when someone knocks.  He never used his hand, either.  He would use a belt.  A belt is far less likely to injure and he didn't want me to fear him, but to fear the belt.

Anyone who disagrees with him is a racist, sexist, daddyophobe.

I heard Dobson (I believe it was Dobson) speak on that once.  About using a paddle or such, to remove the association from the parent to the item used for discipline.

Jellybean, I visited that site & while I respect the view-points & teachings on that site & agree with many (as I said, spanking is a last resort), one of the first things I read, again brought up the niche that parents who spank have been pigeon-holed into.  They basically say that a relationship with God is about attaching & not detaching & connecting, not disconnecting.  It seems as if they are saying that all parents who spank their children are disconnected from their children.  How false that is!  I have a 4 yr. old, whom I've spanked, that if she were any more emotionally connected to me, well. . . those who've followed Star Trek will get this. . . we'd be like the Borg.  They also went on to say the following:

Too often parents are taught that their discipline choices can even guarantee the salvation of their children. This is not only not our job, it's God's job alone. Our job as parents is to prepare the hearts of our children to be good ground for the seed of the Gospel which is our privilege to plant, not to produce perfectly behaved Stepford children.

http://aolff.org/

I don't believe that the way I discipline my children will bring them salvation.  For me, disciplining is completely separate from my explanations of how Christ died for our sins & how He is the only way to heaven.  I pray every night that God draw my daughters close to Him & that He put that desire in their hearts to have a relationship with Him through Christ.  To me, it almost seems ludicrous that the discipline I give them with save them.  Yes, it will teach them how God expects us to behave, but it won't save them.  As I said, the site brought up valid points, but they lost some of their credibility by stuffing all of us who spank into the same category of blind Christians who don't have a relationship with their children.

: FollowHisGrace  Thu Mar 24, 2011 - 07:40:00
  It seems as if they are saying that all parents who spank their children are disconnected from their children.  How false that is!

I can't speak for the author of the website, but I don't think that all parents who spank are disconnected from their children, and I don't think that was the author's point.  However, I think the act of spanking is by nature "disconnecting."  Striking/spanking/hitting someone, whether adult or child, with the intent to cause pain, is not an activity that promotes feelings of love, safety, and security (necessary for strong attachments.)  That's just human nature.  When people intentionally hurt us, it creates a distance, and often a desire to get away from that person.  It does not make us want to come closer to that person...I think that's what the author of the website was saying.  The act of inflicting physical pain causes detachment/disconnection, for sure in the short-term and often in the long-term as well.

I don't believe that the way I discipline my children will bring them salvation.  For me, disciplining is completely separate from my explanations of how Christ died for our sins & how He is the only way to heaven. 

I agree.  I think the author of the site was referring to followers of Michael and Debi Pearl.  If you don't know who they are, thank God for that!  They are extreme and suggest that the way we discipline our children *does* impact their salvation.  Their advice is horribly abusive (switching infants as young as 4 months old, setting kids up to fail and then beating them severely for it....several kids have died after their parents followed their advice...)  I happen to know that Crystal (the author of the website I linked) writes against the Pearls and helps minister to parents who have read their material and followed their advice.  So I think that's what she was referring to with those comments about discipline and salvation.

: Mere Nick  Wed Mar 23, 2011 - 17:36:02
My dad would always talk to us first.  A good whuppin' with a belt would come later.  He said to always politely knock on the front door, that is, by speaking.  If that doesn't work, then you have to bust open the back door.  It teaches the whupee that one should open the front door when someone knocks.  He never used his hand, either.  He would use a belt.  A belt is far less likely to injure and he didn't want me to fear him, but to fear the belt.

Anyone who disagrees with him is a racist, sexist, daddyophobe.

Do you really think that a belt is far less likely to injure than a hand?I cant agree there, especially if the buckle end is used, which is often is the case. I would far rather be smacked with a hand, that beaten with a belt (if I had the choice  that is!)

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.  I honestly understand all of the points being made against spanking, but I honestly believe that spanking is Biblical.  While I understand some of the points being made against spanking, I don't agree with all of them.  I know too many Christians who spank or were spanked by Christian parents when they were children, & it in no way affected their relationship with their parents or their relationship with God.  While God & Christ are good & the model of love, they are also just & seek righteousness.  I could go off on a whole tangent there, but won't.  I'm just going to agree to disagree.

I know the people on this topic just want to "help" me be a better parent (at least I hope that's the spirit & not just to prove another wrong).  I appreciate the spirit of that, however, on a topic such as this. . . if I'm wrong then God needs to convict me & deal with my heart.  And if I'm wrong & never feel conviction, then that is mine to deal with at the foot of the judgement seat.

I enjoyed the debate, pray that I didn't come across as telling anyone that their belief is wrong (think I was pretty much just defending my belief about spanking) & am just going to have to agree that we disagree!

Blessings!

Wow! This makes a lot of sense. I am the CEO of our company, Salty's Clothing Company. I here to attest I had my share of spankings when I was a child. My wife and I have struggled with spanking our 4 year old. We do but we always correct her first, warn her of a spanking and if the behavior is redundant we spank her. We always make sure she understands why we had to spank her. It is a struggle though. Does anyone else struggle with it?