Christian Forums

Do you have any idea what κενόω means?

Quote from: OldDad on Sun Dec 04, 2011 - 23:12:02
Do you have any idea what κενόω means?

Yep and because of the reasons I mentioned.....

I am more than certain it doesn't mean what some of you mistakenly seem to think it means!

God on earth, in the form of a man did things on earth that only God can do.... the number one thing

Redeeming man by destroying the works of the devil, Restoring His Kingdom here on Earth!

That's what God the Son did and that is what He came to do

When you read the Law and the Prophets you see

It was His very reason for coming so...

If you know anything at all

Ya gotta know He wasn't as empty as some of you mistakenly seem to think....He was Full of the Holy Spirit having the Spirit without measure, that means Jesus was brimming over with The Creative Power of Almighty God, His cup was literally running over with Holy Ghost Power and anointing.

Jesus was not like Buddha, just saying wise things about Life, sitting under a tree
...Jesus IS LIFE, Jesus is Light!

John 1:4,5 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.


(Also see John 14:6)

Making Himself of no reputation would be the more apt way of understanding the term κενόω

In other words, Being God, He didn't come to earth in the midst of a Royal Processional with trumpets blowing and a Legion of Angels at His Right and His Left, on a flying horse drawn chariot....

He'll do that type of entrance on His return...

However the first time, He came making Himself of no reputation

Therefore

Those who did not have spiritual eyes to see and spiritual ears to hear could not recognize Him as God

So yea, Jesus came as servant, not as King of heaven

yet

He was in fact King,

Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."
John 18:36

To the dismay of the Pharisees

Pilate even put it on the Cross

19Pilate also wrote an inscription and put it on the cross. It was written, "JESUS THE NAZARENE, THE KING OF THE JEWS.

I imagine then with all the qualities of God Jesus retained when He became in the likeness of men, there was really no problem of aligning Himself to always please the Father, yet I continue to read in Hebrews 4:15, For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are.  Hebrews 2:18  For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

But we read in Philippians 2:6-7.  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7  But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
 
John 8:29  And He that sent Me is with Me: the Father hath not left Me alone; for I do always those things that please Him.

Again, if Jesus did not become man as we are, why was there any reason at all for his suffering? Do you suppose that when Jesus affiliated Him with man, He was only half a man? No, Hebrews 5:8 says that though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered. Being totally God as you say, what could Jesus possible experience or learn that He did not already know?
 
John 8:28  Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Quote from: gospel on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 01:14:17

Yep and because of the reasons I mentioned.....

I am more than certain it doesn't mean what some of you mistakenly seem to think it means!

God on earth, in the form of a man did things on earth that only God can do.... the number one thing

Redeeming man by destroying the works of the devil, Restoring His Kingdom here on Earth!

That's what God the Son did and that is what He came to do

When you read the Law and the Prophets you see

It was His very reason for coming so...

If you know anything at all

Ya gotta know He wasn't as empty as some of you mistakenly seem to think....He was Full of the Holy Spirit having the Spirit without measure, that means Jesus was brimming over with The Creative Power of Almighty God, His cup was literally running over with Holy Ghost Power and anointing.

Jesus was not like Buddha, just saying wise things about Life, sitting under a tree
...Jesus IS LIFE, Jesus is Light!

John 1:4,5 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.


(Also see John 14:6)

Making Himself of no reputation would be the more apt way of understanding the term κενόω

In other words, Being God, He didn't come to earth in the midst of a Royal Processional with trumpets blowing and a Legion of Angels at His Right and His Left, on a flying horse drawn chariot....

He'll do that type of entrance on His return...

However the first time, He came making Himself of no reputation

Therefore

Those who did not have spiritual eyes to see and spiritual ears to hear could not recognize Him as God

So yea, Jesus came as servant, not as King of heaven

yet

He was in fact King,

Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."
John 18:36

To the dismay of the Pharisees

Pilate even put it on the Cross

19Pilate also wrote an inscription and put it on the cross. It was written, "JESUS THE NAZARENE, THE KING OF THE JEWS.

Quote from: OldDad on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 10:00:37
Ah, so you don't have any idea what κενόω means.

That explains a lot.

Will you please tell us what it means?  

κενόω means to empty, or to make empty; to make void.  It's used of Jesus in Philippians 2:7, when he "gave up his divine privileges."

That was a lot easier to understand than I had expected after reading Gospels response.

He made himself nothing, very humbling.

Quote from: OldDad on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 10:11:04
κενόω means to empty, or to make empty; to make void.  It's used of Jesus in Philippians 2:7, when he "gave up his divine privileges."

Philippians 2:5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:

Though Jesus was in very nature God, Paul tells us to have His attitude, that even Jesus (as God) had the attitude that equality with God was something not to be grasped, but made Himself nothing...taking on the nature of a servent.

Jesus was still God...and always will be; regardless...our attitude should reflect along the line of Jesus...and His perfect attitude (humble...nothing)...

Then...in our nothing; God will become our everything...

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 11:01:33

Quote from: OldDad on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 10:11:04
κενόω means to empty, or to make empty; to make void.  It's used of Jesus in Philippians 2:7, when he "gave up his divine privileges."

Philippians 2:5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:

Though Jesus was in very nature God, Paul tells us to have His attitude, that even Jesus (as God) had the attitude that equality with God was something not to be grasped, but made Himself nothing...taking on the nature of a servent.

Jesus was still God...and always will be; regardless...our attitude should reflect the along the line of Jesus...and His perfect attitude (humble...nothing)...

Then...in our nothing; God will become our everything...

Thankfuldad
Manna and Thank You very much for reiterating it so simply and to the point

Quote from: OldDad on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 10:11:04
κενόω means to empty, or to make empty; to make void.  It's used of Jesus in Philippians 2:7, when he "gave up his divine privileges."

Old Dad
That shows me you didn't understand a word of any scripture I posted...

First of all if Jesus gave up divine privileges His coming would be of no use to us because he'd be no more than Buddha, a good example!

The whole point of Christianity however is that Jesus is God come to earth!

If Jesus gave up divine privileges as you seem to believe there is quite a lot of things He would not have been able to do first and foremost fulfill the Law, Redeem Man and destroy the power of Satan

Lets list some of the other things here once again....

He walked on water,
He walked through angry crowds who were trying to kill Him and
He transfigured Himself
He raised the dead,
He gave sight to the blind
He healed lepers with a touch
He spoke to the wind and the waves commanding them to cease and they obeyed

Sounds like a lot of divine privileges to me....

Are you or anyone you know doing any of those things?

Of course not why?

Because although you have God's divine nature inside of you, your flesh is still in control because you are of the earth

Although Jesus had human nature inside of Him, His Divine Nature was in complete control why because He is of heaven

Why....Because Jesus was God!

Why in God's name anyone, especially any Christian would even debate this is deeply troubling and disconcerting to me


As I stated earlier and Thankful dad correctly pointed out,

Jesus humbled Himself, He did not empty Himself...that's silly to say the least

For instance as a King putting on the clothing of a peasant,walking and living among them!

Not making a reputation for himself, not going among the people announcing himself as king, with soldiers guarding him and servants tending to him having left by choice, the luxury and splendor of his castle and the preeminence of his throne, subjecting himself to the same lifestyle as the peasants yet...

....having a secret courier, In Jesus case, the Holy Spirit by whom He is still able to exercise all of His Kingly responsibilities

Because in fact HE IS STILL KING!

Quote from: Bitter Sweet on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 10:34:13
That was a lot easier to understand than I had expected after reading Gospels response.

He made himself nothing, very humbling.

From:King James Version Today

Thus κενόω does not merely mean "empty" but emptiness in regards to a thing (determined by context).  The NIV in Romans 4:14 translates κεκενωται as "no value" because the context determines that the emptiness is in regards to value.  

The NASB in 1 Corinthians 1:17 translates κεκενωται as "made void" because the context determines that the emptiness is in regards to effect.  

Likewise, the KJV translates εκενωσεν in Philippians 2:7 as "made... of no reputation" because the context determines that the emptiness is in regards to reputation:

   "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." (Philippians 2:7-8)

The point of Philippians 2:7-8 is that Jesus made himself empty in regards to reputation.  
Thus "made himself of no reputation" is precise.  The literal "emptied himself" can lead to abuse by people like Jehovah's Witnesses who do not believe that Jesus was God.

Read it for yourself at this link


http://www.kjvtoday.com/home/made-himself-of-no-reputation-or-emptied-himself-in-philippians-27

Quote from: gospel on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 11:40:32

Quote from: Bitter Sweet on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 10:34:13
That was a lot easier to understand than I had expected after reading Gospels response.

He made himself nothing, very humbling.

From:King James Version Today

Thus κενόω does not merely mean "empty" but emptiness in regards to a thing (determined by context).  The NIV in Romans 4:14 translates κεκενωται as "no value" because the context determines that the emptiness is in regards to value.  

The NASB in 1 Corinthians 1:17 translates κεκενωται as "made void" because the context determines that the emptiness is in regards to effect.  

Likewise, the KJV translates εκενωσεν in Philippians 2:7 as "made... of no reputation" because the context determines that the emptiness is in regards to reputation:

   "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." (Philippians 2:7-8)

The point of Philippians 2:7-8 is that Jesus made himself empty in regards to reputation.  
Thus "made himself of no reputation" is precise.  The literal "emptied himself" can lead to abuse by people like Jehovah's Witnesses who do not believe that Jesus was God.

Read it for yourself at this link


http://www.kjvtoday.com/home/made-himself-of-no-reputation-or-emptied-himself-in-philippians-27

I just didn't get it when you explained it with "no reputation" in your original response to the question.

Is this the same word used to describe the world in genesis when it was void? Because it was of no value then also.

Scripture makes clear that God was fully Deity and fully man. I don't know why you want to ignore that Christ was fully man. He wasn't just God wrapped in flesh. He had two natures that co-existed. He overcame the sin nature of his humanity through his Deity. Hence, why he is an intercessor for us and through Him we can overcome our sins and become Christ-like and one day perfected as He is.

No one has said that Jesus sinned though you wish to misconstrue every response that way. What is being said is that without the capacity to sin, Jesus could not be the intercessor that He is and make a choice to save us. It is extremely important that Jesus had the capacity to sin so he could choose not to do so, leading the way to show us all out of our sinful lives.

Without the choice then the sacrifice would be in vain. Love isn't love unless you have an option. The Father gave Jesus a choice. Jesus could have chosen to not die for us and we also have a choice to follow him, because all men, have choices and face the pull between fulfilling our own desires (sin) or doing the will of the Father.

Jesus overcame that pull of humanity of fufilling his own desires through the nature of His Deity, but that doesn't negate his manhood. If you need the scripture, my study suggestion is the 40 days in the wilderness. Jesus wasn't overcoming Satan so much as he was making his humanity conform to His Deity.

He was perfect and sinless, both as God and man. His human side having the capacity to sin negates none of that.

Quote from: Supplanter on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 11:59:12Without the choice then the sacrifice would be in vain. Love isn't love unless you have an option. The Father gave Jesus a choice. Jesus could have chosen to not die for us and we also have a choice to follow him, because all men, have choices and face the pull between fulfilling our own desires (sin) or doing the will of the Father.

Jesus was the Lamb slain before the foundations of this world; Jesus had no choice...He was obedient to God.  He came for one purpose...God's...and as God, He could not fail...and did not fail.  God, being Love had no option...

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:09:52
Jesus had no choice...He was obedient to God. 

Obedience is, by definition, a choice.

Quote from: Jimmy on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:34:14

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:09:52
Jesus had no choice...He was obedient to God. 

Obedience is, by definition, a choice.

Good point...regardless, His obedience was to Himself...wrap your logic around that one

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:36:18

Quote from: Jimmy on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:34:14

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:09:52
Jesus had no choice...He was obedient to God. 

Obedience is, by definition, a choice.

Good point...regardless, His obedience was to Himself...wrap your logic around that one

His obedience was to the Father, not Himself.

Quote from: Jimmy on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:48:38

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:36:18

Quote from: Jimmy on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:34:14

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:09:52
Jesus had no choice...He was obedient to God. 

Obedience is, by definition, a choice.

Good point...regardless, His obedience was to Himself...wrap your logic around that one

His obedience was to the Father, not Himself.

And they were in agreement as One

QuoteScripture makes clear that God was fully Deity and fully man. I don't know why you want to ignore that Christ was fully man. He wasn't just God wrapped in flesh. He had two natures that co-existed. He overcame the sin nature of his humanity through his Deity. Hence, why he is an intercessor for us and through Him we can overcome our sins and become Christ-like and one day perfected as He is.

Can't you see the inherent contradiction of your own statement? Seriously can't you see that what you just said is in complete agreement with me except for one thing...you're asserting Jesus had a sin nature and to that I say OH MY GOD!

You cannot be serious ...can you? Jesus... a sin nature? The Lamb of God, Perfect, Sinless, Flawless, without Spot or Blemish, Born from Heaven of the Holy Spirit, Perfectly Righteous and you're actually asserting Jesus had a sin nature ....WOW!

QuoteNo one has said that Jesus sinned though you wish to misconstrue every response that way.

No but you're saying He could have sinned because He had sin within Him....

Then thinking you're saying something profound you say He overcame sin in Himself when the fact of the matter is according to Scripture...

HE KNEW NO SIN, HE DID NOT FEEL SIN'S PULL BECAUSE THERE WAS NONE IN HIM!

HE'S GOD, PURE HOLY AND RIGHTEOUS ( caps for emphasis )

Quote
What is being said is that without the capacity to sin, Jesus could not be the intercessor that He is and make a choice to save us. It is extremely important that Jesus had the capacity to sin so he could choose not to do so, leading the way to show us all out of our sinful lives.

That's kind of silly if you think about it...He had to have sin within Him so he could prove He is sinless?

The difference between what I am saying and you are saying is that I am saying

Jesus did not have to choose not to lie...why

JESUS IS TRUTH!

Jesus did not have to choose to Love...Why?

JESUS IS LOVE!

Jesus did not have to choose Righteousness...Why?

HE IS RIGHTEOUSNESS!

That is why He came Because He IS GOD...

Jesus did not come on some sort of test that He might fail, He came to do something that has been preordained from the foundation of the world!

This was God's Perfect Plan, not a test to see if God was stronger than Satan...geesh!

Where do you folks get this stuff?

Jesus entered the wilderness FULL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT,

He was already the Lamb of God, John announced it upon seeing Him

He came to earth as the Lamb of God, He came to earth to fulfill a mission, a plan not to be tested....

That's a human idea, its humanism in its most insidious form, applying humanistic traits to Jesus, neglecting to accept or understand the depth of the significance that Jesus is God, and the Divine Nature in Him overpower and subjugated His human nature

Hence the example is not in choosing, intellectually choosing between right and wrong

The example is as Paul stated BEING LED OF THE SPIRIT

SO.....

When we are Led by the Spirit we cannot do those things that are not pleasing to God

When we are Led by the Spirit, the things He will lead us to do will never violate any of God's Laws

When we are Led by the Spirit, Satan cannot tempt us into listening to his voice, he cannot tempt us through

Lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes or the pride of life

That is what Jesus exemplified for us

Choosing a path, A Way of Life, with Jesus as the Way where we are determined to be Led by the Spirit

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1 John 2:16

You folks can argue until you are blue in the face about Jesus capacity to sin all you want however

The totality of Scripture says something completely different

Read 1 John 2:16 very carefully and slowly, meditate and reflect upon it and when you do,

I don't see how anyone could still respond trying to tell us they believe Jesus had within Himself the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life when Scripture makes it clear those things belong to the world and not to God!

QuoteWithout the choice then the sacrifice would be in vain. Love isn't love unless you have an option. The Father gave Jesus a choice. Jesus could have chosen to not die for us and we also have a choice to follow him, because all men, have choices and face the pull between fulfilling our own desires (sin) or doing the will of the Father.

That's kind of silly when you really think about it

God comes to earth and dies for man and somehow if sin was not in Him, His shed blood doesn't count?

Think about it!

QuoteJesus overcame that pull of humanity of fufilling his own desires through the nature of His Deity, but that doesn't negate his manhood. If you need the scripture, my study suggestion is the 40 days in the wilderness. Jesus wasn't overcoming Satan so much as he was making his humanity conform to His Deity.

Jesus was proving NOTHING IN HIM BELONGED TO SATAN, HE'S GOD, ALWAYS HAS BEEN ALWAYS WILL BE.

A normal everyday human being like you and I full of the spirit could overcome sin what in God's name do you think God in the form of man Full of God's Spirit could do?

Answer: Everything Jesus did, including the wilderness!

QuoteHe was perfect and sinless, both as God and man. His human side having the capacity to sin negates none of that.

Read this very carefully and use a bit of intellectual reasoning

The capacity to sin means that Jesus was impure

If sin is within Jesus, you're saying Jesus was not pure

For some reason you think making the right choice is what made Him or any person pure...but you've got it backwards

The capacity to choose PERFECTLY EVERY TIME WITHOUT FAIL MEANS JESUS IS PURE

If Jesus is Pure He cannot choose imperfectly

The rest of us cannot choose our way into purity...it impossible

We are in fact impure from the get go!

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:50:07

Quote from: Jimmy on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:48:38

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:36:18

Quote from: Jimmy on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:34:14

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:09:52
Jesus had no choice...He was obedient to God. 

Obedience is, by definition, a choice.

Good point...regardless, His obedience was to Himself...wrap your logic around that one

His obedience was to the Father, not Himself.

And they were in agreement as One

Yes?  So?  Jesus never called Himself the Father.  There was probably a good reason for that.  He isn't the Father.  He is the Son.  They are one, but they are not the same beings.  But all of that is off the point of the thread.  Not really certain what the point was.

Quote from: Jimmy on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 13:01:41

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:50:07

Quote from: Jimmy on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:48:38

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:36:18

Quote from: Jimmy on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:34:14

Quote from: Thankfulldad on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:09:52
Jesus had no choice...He was obedient to God.  

Obedience is, by definition, a choice.

Good point...regardless, His obedience was to Himself...wrap your logic around that one

His obedience was to the Father, not Himself.

And they were in agreement as One

Yes?  So?  Jesus never called Himself the Father.  There was probably a good reason for that.  He isn't the Father.  He is the Son.  They are one, but they are not the same beings.  But all of that is off the point of the thread.  Not really certain what the point was.

Wow!  

But you're right in that the thread went far afield of the topic

Quote from: gospel on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 12:59:07

QuoteScripture makes clear that God was fully Deity and fully man. I don't know why you want to ignore that Christ was fully man. He wasn't just God wrapped in flesh. He had two natures that co-existed. He overcame the sin nature of his humanity through his Deity. Hence, why he is an intercessor for us and through Him we can overcome our sins and become Christ-like and one day perfected as He is.

Can't you see the inherent contradiction of your own statement? Seriously can't you see that what you just said is in complete agreement with me except for one thing...you're asserting Jesus had a sin nature and to that I say OH MY GOD!

You cannot be serious ...can you? Jesus... a sin nature? The Lamb of God, Perfect, Sinless, Flawless, without Spot or Blemish, Born from Heaven of the Holy Spirit, Perfectly Righteous and you're actually asserting Jesus had a sin nature ....WOW!

QuoteNo one has said that Jesus sinned though you wish to misconstrue every response that way.

No but you're saying He could have sinned because He had sin within Him....

Then thinking you're saying something profound you say He overcame sin in Himself when the fact of the matter is according to Scripture...

HE KNEW NO SIN, HE DID NOT FEEL SIN'S PULL BECAUSE THERE WAS NONE IN HIM!

HE'S GOD, PURE HOLY AND RIGHTEOUS ( caps for emphasis )

Quote
What is being said is that without the capacity to sin, Jesus could not be the intercessor that He is and make a choice to save us. It is extremely important that Jesus had the capacity to sin so he could choose not to do so, leading the way to show us all out of our sinful lives.

That's kind of silly if you think about it...He had to have sin within Him so he could prove He is sinless?

The difference between what I am saying and you are saying is that I am saying

Jesus did not have to choose not to lie...why

JESUS IS TRUTH!

Jesus did not have to choose to Love...Why?

JESUS IS LOVE!

Jesus did not have to choose Righteousness...Why?

HE IS RIGHTEOUSNESS!

That is why He came Because He IS GOD...

Jesus did not come on some sort of test that He might fail, He came to do something that has been preordained from the foundation of the world!

This was God's Perfect Plan, not a test to see if God was stronger than Satan...geesh!

Where do you folks get this stuff?

Jesus entered the wilderness FULL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT,

He was already the Lamb of God, John announced it upon seeing Him

He came to earth as the Lamb of God, He came to earth to fulfill a mission, a plan not to be tested....

That's a human idea, its humanism in its most insidious form, applying humanistic traits to Jesus, neglecting to accept or understand the depth of the significance that Jesus is God, and the Divine Nature in Him overpower and subjugated His human nature

Hence the example is not in choosing, intellectually choosing between right and wrong

The example is as Paul stated BEING LED OF THE SPIRIT

SO.....

When we are Led by the Spirit we cannot do those things that are not pleasing to God

When we are Led by the Spirit, the things He will lead us to do will never violate any of God's Laws

When we are Led by the Spirit, Satan cannot tempt us into listening to his voice, he cannot tempt us through

Lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes or the pride of life

That is what Jesus exemplified for us

Choosing a path, A Way of Life, with Jesus as the Way where we are determined to be Led by the Spirit

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1 John 2:16

You folks can argue until you are blue in the face about Jesus capacity to sin all you want however

The totality of Scripture says something completely different

Read 1 John 2:16 very carefully and slowly, meditate and reflect upon it and when you do,

I don't see how anyone could still respond trying to tell us they believe Jesus had within Himself the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life when Scripture makes it clear those things belong to the world and not to God!

QuoteWithout the choice then the sacrifice would be in vain. Love isn't love unless you have an option. The Father gave Jesus a choice. Jesus could have chosen to not die for us and we also have a choice to follow him, because all men, have choices and face the pull between fulfilling our own desires (sin) or doing the will of the Father.

That's kind of silly when you really think about it

God comes to earth and dies for man and somehow if sin was not in Him, His shed blood doesn't count?

Think about it!

QuoteJesus overcame that pull of humanity of fufilling his own desires through the nature of His Deity, but that doesn't negate his manhood. If you need the scripture, my study suggestion is the 40 days in the wilderness. Jesus wasn't overcoming Satan so much as he was making his humanity conform to His Deity.

Jesus was proving NOTHING IN HIM BELONGED TO SATAN, HE'S GOD, ALWAYS HAS BEEN ALWAYS WILL BE.

A normal everyday human being like you and I full of the spirit could overcome sin what in God's name do you think God in the form of man Full of God's Spirit could do?

Answer: Everything Jesus did, including the wilderness!

QuoteHe was perfect and sinless, both as God and man. His human side having the capacity to sin negates none of that.

Read this very carefully and use a bit of intellectual reasoning

The capacity to sin means that Jesus was impure

If sin is within Jesus, you're saying Jesus was not pure

For some reason you think making the right choice is what made Him or any person pure...but you've got it backwards

The capacity to choose PERFECTLY EVERY TIME WITHOUT FAIL MEANS JESUS IS PURE

If Jesus is Pure He cannot choose imperfectly

The rest of us cannot choose our way into purity...it impossible

We are in fact impure from the get go!

And again, you purposely misconstrue the responses given to you. It is very simple:

Sin does not equal the capacity thereof. Having a capacity to sin does not mean that you have "sin" withing you. You only have sin when you sin, but each man has a capacity to sin  that he can deny or obey.

Adam and Eve were perfect and sinless when created. They only became corrupted through their sin. Sin came through the act of using their free will to be disobedient. Jesus had the free will to submit to his carnal nature, but did not because he is also God and the nature of his deity perfected his humanity. You are missing a huge, monumental, thing about the very nature of Christ and what He has done for us if you can't accept that he did indeed have the same capacity that we all have and yet overcame. 

The incarnation is a mystery, but what we can clearly discern from scripture and the gospels was that God was fully Deity and fully man and had ALL the attributes of each within His being.   

Quote from: Supplanter on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 11:59:12
Scripture makes clear that God was fully Deity and fully man. I don't know why you want to ignore that Christ was fully man. He wasn't just God wrapped in flesh. He had two natures that co-existed. He overcame the sin nature of his humanity through his Deity. Hence, why he is an intercessor for us and through Him we can overcome our sins and become Christ-like and one day perfected as He is.

No one has said that Jesus sinned though you wish to misconstrue every response that way. What is being said is that without the capacity to sin, Jesus could not be the intercessor that He is and make a choice to save us. It is extremely important that Jesus had the capacity to sin so he could choose not to do so, leading the way to show us all out of our sinful lives.

Without the choice then the sacrifice would be in vain. Love isn't love unless you have an option. The Father gave Jesus a choice. Jesus could have chosen to not die for us and we also have a choice to follow him, because all men, have choices and face the pull between fulfilling our own desires (sin) or doing the will of the Father.

Jesus overcame that pull of humanity of fufilling his own desires through the nature of His Deity, but that doesn't negate his manhood. If you need the scripture, my study suggestion is the 40 days in the wilderness. Jesus wasn't overcoming Satan so much as he was making his humanity conform to His Deity.

He was perfect and sinless, both as God and man. His human side having the capacity to sin negates none of that.

Best post on this thread. A hearty amen.

Yes Old Dad, any questions now as to why I married this wonderful woman?

QuoteAnd again, you purposely misconstrue the responses given to you. It is very simple:

Sin does not equal the capacity thereof. Having a capacity to sin does not mean that you have "sin" withing you. You only have sin when you sin, but each man has a capacity to sin  that he can deny or obey.

Please take note: I am supplying scripture with just about every post yet many of the responses go on to talk in terms of man made doctrines, human wisdom and opinions.

And again you are showing you don't even realize that what you are asserting is inherently contradictory

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 1 Peter 1:23

Jesus came to earth as the Word made Flesh, The Living Word, God!

Incorruptible!

Acts of Sin is only possible when one has the capacity to do so, that capacity is called the Nature of Sin

Acts of sin are the result of impurity, the nature of sin.

So an impure heart, impure motives, impure desires are part of the sin nature

More specifically the word sin specifically means, falling short, missing the mark

The mark, the bullseye is perfection!

In the case of this discussion the mark is God's Holiness!

The capacity to sin means one is inherently able to be less than, act less than, speak less than, function less than The Perfection of God

That said, I will not insult you by citing the number of times that Jesus Himself stated EVERYTHING HE DID AND SAID was in PERFECT AGREEMENT WITH GOD

What made it possible for Jesus to state this Truth is because

JESUS IS GOD, JESUS IS PERFECT, THE HOLY LAMB OF GOD...PERFECT IN EVERY WAY, NOT MISSING THE MARK IN ANYWAY, having nothing corruptible within Himself!

He didn't become God proving He could be Perfect He was Already Perfect!
He came Perfect there was no CAPACITY OR POSSIBILITY OF HIM BEING ANY LESS THAN WHOM HE IS .....GOD, PERFECTLY!

QuoteAdam and Eve were perfect and sinless when created.

Wrong!

Here we go again, they were not perfect, they were innocent

TWO DIFFERENT THINGS ENTIRELY!

Children are born INNOCENT not perfect

QuoteThey only became corrupted through their sin. Sin came through the act of using their free will to be disobedient.

They had the capacity to be corrupted because they were made out of the earth
however Jesus came from heaven

Two different things

The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1 Corinthians 15:47

Quote
Jesus had the free will to submit to his carnal nature, but did not because he is also God and the nature of his deity perfected his humanity. You are missing a huge, monumental, thing about the very nature of Christ and what He has done for us if you can't accept that he did indeed have the same capacity that we all have and yet overcame.

You are over estimating human will as if God's own Will is not Sovereign

Jesus was FULLY SUBMITTED TO GOD'S SOVEREIGN WILL, His will, was The Will of the Father

DIVINITY TRUMPS HUMANITY everytime!

QuoteThe incarnation is a mystery, but what we can clearly discern from scripture and the gospels was that God was fully Deity and fully man and had ALL the attributes of each within His being.  

DIVINITY TRUMPS HUMANITY everytime!

I repeat if you, me or anyone would allow ourselves to become Full of the Holy Spirit to the point where we are PERFECTLY AND COMPLETELY LED by the Holy Spirit we would not fall short in any area of our life

HOWEVER...

It is impossible for any human being to be PERFECTLY AND COMPLETELY LED by the Holy Spirit because within us is imperfection, within us is the capacity for being corrupted, within us we are fighting lust of the eyes, of the flesh and the pride of life....even right now as we are posting, a lot of this is nothing but the pride of life...It's human nature, its the sin nature, its what we are accustomed to and accept as normal

What you have to come to understand is that
JESUS DID NOT HAVE THE PRIDE OF LIFE, THE LUST OF THE FLESH OR THE EYES WITHIN HIMSELF

Jesus was PERFECTLY AND COMPLETELY LED by the Holy Spirit because

HE WAS PERFECT

THAT IS WHY HE CAME,
TO DO A JOB PERFECTLY,
TO FULFILL GOD'S PLAN PERFECTLY,
TO FULFILL THE SCRIPTURE PERFECTLY
TO PERFECTLY FULFILL THE MISSION GOD HAS SPELLED OUT IN HIS WORD

Quote from: OldDad on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 13:25:50

Quote from: Supplanter on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 11:59:12
Scripture makes clear that God was fully Deity and fully man. I don't know why you want to ignore that Christ was fully man. He wasn't just God wrapped in flesh. He had two natures that co-existed. He overcame the sin nature of his humanity through his Deity. Hence, why he is an intercessor for us and through Him we can overcome our sins and become Christ-like and one day perfected as He is.

No one has said that Jesus sinned though you wish to misconstrue every response that way. What is being said is that without the capacity to sin, Jesus could not be the intercessor that He is and make a choice to save us. It is extremely important that Jesus had the capacity to sin so he could choose not to do so, leading the way to show us all out of our sinful lives.

Without the choice then the sacrifice would be in vain. Love isn't love unless you have an option. The Father gave Jesus a choice. Jesus could have chosen to not die for us and we also have a choice to follow him, because all men, have choices and face the pull between fulfilling our own desires (sin) or doing the will of the Father.

Jesus overcame that pull of humanity of fufilling his own desires through the nature of His Deity, but that doesn't negate his manhood. If you need the scripture, my study suggestion is the 40 days in the wilderness. Jesus wasn't overcoming Satan so much as he was making his humanity conform to His Deity.

He was perfect and sinless, both as God and man. His human side having the capacity to sin negates none of that.

Best post on this thread. A hearty amen.

Unfortunately though as you appeal to the pride of life within her... her posts like yours and John's are incorrect

Jesus is God, Eternally Perfect, Eternally Pure, Eternally Holy, Eternally Flawless, Eternally Righteous

God Cannot be tempted nor does He tempt

God Cannot lie

God Cannot be unjust

God Cannot be unfaithful

CANNOT MEANS NO CAPACITY, IMPOSSIBLE!

I understand how JWs, Jews and Muslims are confused in these matters

But All Protestant Christians should know these as Truth unequivocally

Unbelievable to me that someone would even argue

Jesus could have lied if he wanted to ....

"If he wanted to" means if he "desired"

Desire means lust,

To have the capacity to lie means the lust of the world was within Him as it is within us ,

As if the desire to deceive, Satan's nature was in Jesus

When Jesus is Truth 

You folks couldn't be more wrong!

I'm certain you don't know enough about my character to judge me as prideful.

Secondly, a perfect God made an imperfect creation? How is that possible?

LOL - even after being gone for 8 months, some things never change.  Like gospel twisting scriptures beyond recognition and insisting that the scripture does not say what it clearly says.  

"For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin..."  Sounds simple doesn't it?  But wait until gospel writes another book length post declaring what it can't possibly mean exactly what the Bible says.

Quote from: Supplanter on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 14:14:55
I'm certain you don't know enough about my character to judge me as prideful.

Secondly, a perfect God made an imperfect creation? How is that possible?

Wasn't intended as a judgment or insult

All human beings, and I am afraid to say even you, even me....being human

have the pride of life

Even the manna given in this forum appeals to the pride of life

It is not a judgment, apologies if you think I was being rude

However

Lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh and the pride of life are in the world and all humans in the world have to deal with them

Point is Jesus did not

None of that was in Jesus

Quote from: OldDad on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 14:17:36
LOL - even after being gone for 8 months, some things never change.  Like gospel twisting scriptures beyond recognition and insisting that the scripture does not say what it clearly says.  

"For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin..."  Sounds simple doesn't it?  But wait until gospel writes another book length post declaring what it can't possibly mean exactly what the Bible says.

I am sorry and it is unfortunate that you would camp out on your misunderstanding of one verse

And not take into account the totality of scripture

Try camping out on this one

GOD CANNOT BE TEMPTED - James 1:13

After you camp out there open your bible and read the other verses I have cited throughout this thread

Ignore my words but please read God's

Reflect on 1 John 2:16

Reflect on Jesus the Lamb of God and what that really means

Reflect on Jesus as the Word made flesh,

Reflect on 1 Peter 1:23 the word is incorruptible

Reflect on Nehemiah 2:16 God cannot lie

Reflect on John 14:6 Jesus is THE Truth

Please Ignore what I say, I beseech you but please read the Word of God in it's totality
 
And when you respond respond with scripture

As to that verse you cited again

Jesus allowing ( suffering ) Satan to tempt Him is not an indication of weakness or sin in Jesus

He allowed Satan to try to tempt Him

He was tempted does not mean He wanted to do what Satan and said but chose not do

It means Satan tempted Him to do something, it doesn't mean Jesus was tempted within Himself like a common man such as you and I

But above all don't get mad at me because I understand something you do not

Quote from: gospel on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 14:31:08

But above all don't get mad at me because I understand something you do not

  Right on cue...

Quote from: gospel on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 14:20:55

Quote from: Supplanter on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 14:14:55
I'm certain you don't know enough about my character to judge me as prideful.

Secondly, a perfect God made an imperfect creation? How is that possible?

Wasn't intended as a judgment or insult

All human beings, and I am afraid to say even you, even me....being human

have the pride of life

Even the manna given in this forum appeals to the pride of life

It is not a judgment, apologies if you think I was being rude

However

Lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh and the pride of life are in the world and all humans in the world have to deal with them

Point is Jesus did not

None of that was in Jesus

Apology accepted. Yes, we all do have the pride of life. No getting away from that.

Quote from: OldDad on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 14:43:55

Quote from: gospel on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 14:31:08

But above all don't get mad at me because I understand something you do not

  Right on cue...

Ok now trying picking up camp, packing up your tent and move on toward the promised land of scripture

Reflect on some of those other verses

Quote from: OldDad on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 13:25:50

Quote from: Supplanter on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 11:59:12
Scripture makes clear that God was fully Deity and fully man. I don't know why you want to ignore that Christ was fully man. He wasn't just God wrapped in flesh. He had two natures that co-existed. He overcame the sin nature of his humanity through his Deity. Hence, why he is an intercessor for us and through Him we can overcome our sins and become Christ-like and one day perfected as He is.

No one has said that Jesus sinned though you wish to misconstrue every response that way. What is being said is that without the capacity to sin, Jesus could not be the intercessor that He is and make a choice to save us. It is extremely important that Jesus had the capacity to sin so he could choose not to do so, leading the way to show us all out of our sinful lives.

Without the choice then the sacrifice would be in vain. Love isn't love unless you have an option. The Father gave Jesus a choice. Jesus could have chosen to not die for us and we also have a choice to follow him, because all men, have choices and face the pull between fulfilling our own desires (sin) or doing the will of the Father.

Jesus overcame that pull of humanity of fufilling his own desires through the nature of His Deity, but that doesn't negate his manhood. If you need the scripture, my study suggestion is the 40 days in the wilderness. Jesus wasn't overcoming Satan so much as he was making his humanity conform to His Deity.

He was perfect and sinless, both as God and man. His human side having the capacity to sin negates none of that.

Best post on this thread. A hearty amen.

Thanks. I appreciate that. And as for being away from here for 8 months . . . . .  ."there is nothing new under the sun"

Well Adam and Eve had no sin in them as well but the Devil tempted them in the (Garden).They had nothing in them at that point.Sin entered in through Adam

Now in the (wilderness) Jesus was tempted for 40 days and spent time with the devil and the wild beasts and as we can see it wasn't a walk in the park.
11 Then the devil left Him, and behold, angels came and ministered to Him.
Matt 4:10-11 (NKJV)

Jesus the Man was tempted like Adam the Man but he overcame proving to us all that he really is the MAN.

Quote from: Supplanter on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 15:06:30

Quote from: OldDad on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 13:25:50

Quote from: Supplanter on Mon Dec 05, 2011 - 11:59:12
Scripture makes clear that God was fully Deity and fully man. I don't know why you want to ignore that Christ was fully man. He wasn't just God wrapped in flesh. He had two natures that co-existed. He overcame the sin nature of his humanity through his Deity. Hence, why he is an intercessor for us and through Him we can overcome our sins and become Christ-like and one day perfected as He is.

No one has said that Jesus sinned though you wish to misconstrue every response that way. What is being said is that without the capacity to sin, Jesus could not be the intercessor that He is and make a choice to save us. It is extremely important that Jesus had the capacity to sin so he could choose not to do so, leading the way to show us all out of our sinful lives.

Without the choice then the sacrifice would be in vain. Love isn't love unless you have an option. The Father gave Jesus a choice. Jesus could have chosen to not die for us and we also have a choice to follow him, because all men, have choices and face the pull between fulfilling our own desires (sin) or doing the will of the Father.

Jesus overcame that pull of humanity of fufilling his own desires through the nature of His Deity, but that doesn't negate his manhood. If you need the scripture, my study suggestion is the 40 days in the wilderness. Jesus wasn't overcoming Satan so much as he was making his humanity conform to His Deity.

He was perfect and sinless, both as God and man. His human side having the capacity to sin negates none of that.

Best post on this thread. A hearty amen.

Thanks. I appreciate that. And as for being away from here for 8 months . . . . .  ."there is nothing new under the sun"

You might want to consider diffusing the assertion that I am twisting scripture, that implies dishonesty on my part

Yes I do understand it differently and I have explained at length why I do based on the vast preponderance of scripture, not my opinion

To conclude I am twisting it is a bit disingenuous IMHO

Not one person has shown me in scripture how Jesus had the capacity to lie, cheat, deceive, steal, commit adultery, hate or do anything that would cause Him to violate the Will of God and would require Him to have the nature of Satan within Him

Post scripture to that effect and we'll have a genuine discourse.

Address the scripture I posted that shows Jesus had no impurity within Him, show me in the Word where Jesus had corruptible nature within Him

And we can have a genuine discourse